POTD: Estonian Special Forces with HK416 and NVG

@donotcomplain Funny too because the LMT fan boys are always splooshing over the Estonian contract rifles, yet their SF is using 416's...

@donotcomplain Most special forces around the world aren't allowed to use M855A1.

@ostiariusalpha What bullsh1t you are talking. No one needs M855A1 Ball when you get locally EU produced Tungsten Core APs at 3000fps to 3300fps...

@Airwolf I think you’re missing the point about that one. The contract was to replace general issue Galil and G3 variants, not to re-equip the entire military. Besides that, government contracts come down to a variety of factors, including money. Both the LMT entry and the HK416AX passed the trials, but LMT did it cheaper.

@T243 Euro special forces are not loading their rifles with tungsten core AP as a standard loadout. I mean, it would be cool if they did, but they don't. Most are just carrying some version of SS109/M855 green tip, which is less effective than M855A1 in every way.

@ostiariusalpha I suspect he doesn't know why we adopted M885A1, and its convoluted design/adoption path.

@donotcomplain The 416 is like the M14. Not as bad as its detractors say, but not as great as the fanbois say.

@ostiariusalpha Yup, the Hague convention. No expanding or flattening bullets allowed for signing states, which notably excludes the US. But european countries are already in a gray area by using M193 55gr that tends to squish the lead core and m855 that tends to fragment.

@Airwolf It doesn't seem like a bad choice though, plus I'm willing to guess their SF had the 416's before the lmt's where equipped.

@John Galt Exactly. It met the requirement Estonia had for the contract and it did it at a price better than the 416. The 416 also met the requirement but the bid was high enough that Estonia did not see any advantage for adopting the 416.

@Airwolf If I remember correctly the contract also included 12” MRP’s to replace the pre-existing 416 inventory.

Not sure what the status is on those or the 7.62 DMR’s that were contracted for Estonia.

@donotcomplain There's nothing really wrong with the 416 and most arguments stem from people who sit firmly in either camp and are generally based on what the internet said rather than personal experience with it in a military service context.
In a standard rifle configuration, with a 16 - 18inch barrel for general service use most contemporary ARs (LMT, H&K, SIG or Colt CAN) are about the same in nearly every respect i.e. reliability and accuracy. The 416 however has a proven history when run in a short-barreled and suppressed set up as that was what it was initially designed for. The LMT piston system looks to run fine for the Estonians in their general service configuration and time will tell if it would be mature enough or suitable to replace the 416 within the short-barreled/suppressed category. Being a SOF element I think it would be quite likely to see them run the 416 as their short suppressed or CT weapon and LMTs run for green roles, especially when deployed or embedded with conventional units.

@donotcomplain There are few people who consider HK416 to be a bad gun in its own right; it's a good implementation of AR-18 action in an AR-15-like package.

The complaints are primarily that HK416 is sold as some kind of drastic improvement on M4 and other Stoner-system weapons, which it demonstrably isn't.

FWIW the actual adoption by various countries of one or the other system is not really an argument in favor of either side, because military procurement process is not "look at everything on the market and pick whatever's the absolute bestest".

@ I dont doubt efficacy of 6.8 round... thats not the issue. Urban/assymetric fighting is very decentralized and requires heavier firepower at the squad level. Infantrymen use large numbers of hand grenades in close fighting, especially in cities. They weigh about one pound and can be thrown 40 meters. However, their explosive power is small and rarely kills anyone.

The Soviets recognized the shock and destructive value of rockets and developed the highly successful RPG. Veterans of the Vietnam, Afghan, and Iraq conflicts will attest to the fear caused by the "swoosh and boom" of RPGs. The movie "Blackhawk Down" demonstrates the power of simple RPGs. During the 1983 Falklands campaign, the British discovered the small LAAW 66mm anti-tank rocket was extremely effective during basic infantry combat.

Nevertheless, American infantry units rely on machine guns for platoon level firepower and keep only a few rockets at the company level, although most US Army platoons have a weapons squad with two rockets. As a result, when squads and even platoons make contact they have no powerful firepower to employ. Firefights often become jack-in-the-box shootouts as infantrymen exchange small arms fire for several minutes until supporting fires can be arranged or heavy firepower brought forward. During this critical phase, wounded suffer, the enemy can maneuver or flee, or may advance and overrun the unit.

@ US Strategy of air dominance...sounds nice, but asymmetric fighters often hide or penetrate perimeters making dropping of bombs suicidal. This leads to three things the Army needs
- Ultra low cost gunships
- RPG squads
- portable mounted cannons

@LazyReader Pretty sure your info is outdated, with the deloyment of the Carl Gustaf down to squad level, among others. .

@LazyReader That's why the PLA developed the QLU-11 sniper grenade launcher.