The Journey of a Firearm from legal to illegal

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There’s an interesting story at StoryMap where we follow a legally produced firearm into the darker corners of ownership and use.

Make sure you select full screen mode on your device when looking.

In the U.K., the National Crime Agency and National Counter Terrorism Policing have joined forces to  prevent criminals and terrorists gaining access to firearms and ammunition.

 

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Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley, the head of National Counter-Terrorism Policing:

Despite our good work we know that firearms can enter the criminal market through a variety of means, including thefts from legitimate holders or dealers. Law enforcement, together with security and intelligence services, are working tirelessly to locate these weapons, confront the terrorist threat and keep the public safe.” said Mark Rowley. (National Counter Terrorism Policing)

NCA’s Director General, Lynne Owens, continues:

To stop weapons getting into the wrong hands we need intelligence about the firearms being used, both the supply and the access to them.

The UK threat level from international terrorism remains high, but there has been at least 10 foiled terrorist attacks in the last 2 years.


Check out the hypothetical journey of a firearm, from legal to illegal into the UK (or any other country for that matter).

The story starts with legally produced weapons, often from Eastern Europe. Another example is online sales, from Darknet / TOR, from the US to Europe.

Pictured below, CZ 858 / vz 58, in 7,62×39 mm, with a side-folding paratrooper stock.

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Apparently, Amsterdam in the Netherlands is a popular transit for illegal goods (I’m sure, drugs too) into the UK.

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Online sales on the dark web is mentioned as a source, then shipped through normal postal services.

 

 

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You could say that United Kingdom’s ban on (most) firearms is far from successful. All it seems to have succeeded in is to ban law abiding people from ownership.

Check out the StoryMap – The Journey of a Firearm – from legal to illegal



Eric B

Ex-Arctic Ranger. Competitive practical shooter and hunter with an European focus. Always ready to increase my collection of modern semi-automatic firearms, optics and sound suppressors.


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  • Andrew Miller

    But if something is made illegal, it goes away because people would be risking arrest to possess it or use it.

    That explains why heroin has been eliminated as a drug people consume due to the nation where 90% of it originates has been occupied by the US Army for almost 15 years now, right?

    • Peter (BE)

      It doesn’t go away but it sure jacks up the gun price. This kind of keeps them out of the hands of types of certain sociopaths who cannot afford them like addicts and troubled youths.

      • Anonymoose

        or normal people, who need affodable, legal lethal weapons to protect themselves from sociopaths, addicts, and troubled “youths” who have and always will have illegal lethal weapons. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/85e2fbe1f233984235f9876c856c3f2da2a944ad2c92dc0c045a4a22fe760078.jpg

        • Kurt Akemann

          Odd graphic for those words, given that in the cartoon that image is taken from Bugs Bunny uses the scepter he’s shown holding to clobber the Sheriff of Nottingham.

          A better line might thus be: “Gun Grabbers: What a buncha maroons!”

        • Peter (BE)

          I see and appreciate your point. Too many lethal weapons around create problems of their own. Nervous peacekeepers and all the complications that come with them for example. Most of self defense situations don’t require lethal weapons. France and Germany do pretty well with batons, sprays and tasers. Decent people can own guns for sport, hunting and recreation. And they are available for ad hoc self defense if neccesary.

          • DataMatters

            I would say the US is awash in “lethal weapons” of all kinds. All things considered, our crime rate is extremely low. If you take out drug-related violence and suicides, there’s barely a tick. And drug gangs are a problem of prohibition, not of access to weapons.

          • Peter ( BE)

            agreed.

          • iksnilol

            Non-lethal weapons are pathetic. I ain’t gone gun for a sucker if I don’t intend on stopping him/her permanently.

            Pepper is what I use on my food, not my enemies.

          • Peter (BE)

            Hm, I rather try to de-escalate if avoiding the trouble alltogether doesn’t work. Gun is strictly last line of defense.

          • iksnilol

            If I have to reach into my coat, you’re past de-escaliting.

            Besides, from personal experience, I can’t really de-escalate. The sentence I’ve said the most before having to hurt people (“luckily” without firearms) is a variation of: “Please, I beg of you, don’t do this”. When you de-escalate, stupid people think they got the edge. Smart people? They don’t get into a situation where you have to de-escalate.

          • Peter (BE)

            I mean, a quick first strike with OC coupled with a hasty retreat as de- escalation. At my age you get pretty good in reading the danger signs and be able to walk away before trouble even starts. You kind of proved my point that most self defense situations don’t need lethal force 😀

          • iksnilol

            No… OC doesn’t really work. I know those folks who’ve been hit with it have just been annoyed. Now, I might be young, but my knees are wrecked. So unless I’m in a car behind the wheel, I am not eloping fast.

            I didn’t prove your point. I just know that de-escalating doesn’t work with stupid people. And it is stupid people you need to de-escalate.

          • Peter (BE)

            If “just annoyed” means hardly able to see or breathe for fifteen minutes then I agree. Personally that is all I need.
            Could it be that you are young enough that you are not avoiding the places that attract stupid people very hard? 🙂

          • iksnilol

            That’s the ideal effect, rarely happens. Seen plenty of cops take OC as part of qualification. And in Norway real OC is prohibited, they have so called “self defense spray” which doesn’t have pepper extract (tho it does paint the perp so that’s nice when you’re getting killed).

            No, I went to school with stupid people and live with them. Go eat a chainsaw for suggesting crap like that. “oooh, you got in fights, so you’re stupid, herpaderpaderp”.

          • Peter (BE)

            Hm, it is certainly possible to fight through the effects with some effort if you know what to expect. Over here failures to stop are not unheard of but rare.

            😀

          • iksnilol

            Yeah, and now imagine how often you’d get a failure to stop with “pepperspray” that doesn’t even have pepper in it.

          • glenn cheney

            Most uploaded VIDS of Europe that I WATCH, suggests in far too many instances now, involve MOB MENTALITY, so, Peter may have difficulty sorting through the masses trying to find their Queen Bee.
            I much prefer landing Warthogs on Euro roadways with 30 mm spentry rods on the tip.
            Hammer Time, a Study of Social Disparity and Exodus, (movement of the people, to Alman Bros. SOUTHBOUND.)
            I am all too well of record concerning the geo-pol aspects ongoing in Eurolandia.
            I am divergent in many opinions expressed here.
            But, Tis the season to be jolly, reminds me of that old holiday refrain, ” poliza Bmw’ s roasting over an open fire, Jack frost nipping your heals, run quickly you might make it to the next refrain.
            I so wish I could interview some of those uploading VIDS I watch.

          • FarmerB

            OC is for pizza.

          • Peter (BE)

            You can have my slice 😀

          • glenn cheney

            Why is there a necessity to recognize NO GO ZONES, that IS what you are referring to, is it not?
            If I avoid going where these, for lack of a definitive description, we’ll refer to them academically as no go zones, you know.
            WHERE even the poliza don’t go.
            So, if I keep up with the spreading no go’s zones, my headspacing in the chamber if I’m the bullet. will remain optimized, that about correct?

          • NiteGoat

            That’s some outstanding victim blaming.

          • NiteGoat

            I am also disabled and cannot run or walk briskly. I also cannot be struck due to my disabilities. Since they are also cardiovascular in nature, I cannot be exposed to or inhale errant OC. Pepper spray DOES just piss crazy MF’ers off. I’ve seen it too many times.

            If I’m on foot and you threaten me with physical assault, I’m laying you down.

          • Old Vet

            When I was in law enforcement I had the same problem with mace and only used it a couple of times. Both times I ended up going home early because of the pounding headaches it gave me from exposure. You always seem to get some of it back in your face when the fracas starts.

          • Old Vet

            Your last statement is scary when you think of the recent election where almost 60 million stupid people voted for a gun grabber.

          • iksnilol

            Eh, doesn’t worry me. Feel a bit sorry for you tho.

          • glenn cheney

            When the “whip goes down” You sir will be the first running for your life to the front door of NATO. Don’t piss anyone off, can’t do that. You guys will find your LeMay’s and Bomber Harris’ the Mother of Invention will awaken you.
            ….Dresden may repeat it’s history. This is my prediction, it’s what I do, in other forums. My track record speaks for it’s self. You guys are toast. What emerges after the “storm” remains to be seen, but mark this post.
            Years ago, at cent …com…Frogs were getting bumped into, one would think their presence was not assimilated well into U.S. Mil-spec’ers. Tha’ boys know what is gong on, and that was 15-16 years ago.
            That night, the first wave returned…I bought many drinks on Howard Ave. that evening, just happened to be in the right place at the right time and just happened to bump into “them.”

            Peace, out….p.s., don’t call us, we’ll call you.

          • FarmerB

            same with capsicum spray (sorry, i meant sauce).

          • Vizzini

            Too many lethal weapons around create problems of their own.

            Not as far as I can tell.

          • Peter (BE)

            If you don’t believe in the Ferguson effect for example, I guess not.

          • glenn cheney

            France and Germany? Do you know how many legal firearms in gun free Jolly old England?

          • Peter (BE)

            Approximately. What is your point?

          • glenn cheney

            Give us your best approx. pLz.

          • Peter (BE)

            2,149,3305. Again, what is your point?

          • glenn cheney

            Get Erik to OK my point, and we will discuss the factors now in transition internally in most any part of what remains.
            Euro P.C. and a false sense of security is your plight.

          • glenn cheney

            My point? You Sir, are intoxicated on your own ilixir , we call it Kool aide over here, I’ve a buch, served it up in copious quantities, but, I don’t consume the POISON.
            News is suppressed in your neck of the woods, my best intel. has 2.875 Million registered legAL firearms in Britain, most at hunt clubs and sporting clubs of the affluent.
            Someone is in the next 6-12 months is going to have to PAY for this Herr Merkel exercise in suicide, so, we will find out just what is where.
            THIS is a terminal ballistics duscussion, not political discussion.
            G*D SAVE THE QUEEN!

          • Peter (BE)

            Copy paste played tricks on me, according to “Data tables.London:Office for National Statistics,16 August” there are 2,149,330 …. your call.

          • glenn cheney

            My last waste of time looking into it, the best case estimate is the 1.875 millions.
            If it has jumped ONE Million since I checked, you guys must be in panic mode.
            Get used to it.

          • Peter (BE)

            I still don’t see your point. And I would appreciate it that you would keep in mind that English is not my native language.

          • jay

            Will it be another round of “send your Firearms to Brittan”? Like early WWII, when they had no firearms for the homeland?

      • iksnilol

        Or makes them cheaper since they’re hard to sell. I almost bought hand grenades for likr 10 bucks a piece when I was pn vacation once.

        • Peter (BE)

          If availability is high yes. Where did you go, Croatia? 😉

          • William The Warlord

            Now days Sweden is the place to go for illegal hand grenades. The “refugees” have brought in thousands of grenades and even worse have used them on each other and in the Swedish streets.

          • iksnilol

            Eh, wouldn’t blame refugees so much. Explosives have to be smuggled in, and are sensitive. Most likely stolen from miltiary or such. More likely to be stolen from Swedish armory than anything else, same happened with guns in Norway. Army depot got hit 20+ years ago, suckers still get lit up with G3s from that depot. Hundreds of pistols, G3s and MP5s were stolen then.

            But yeah, Swedish gangs do love hand grenades for some reason. Quick, effective, concealable and of course, little to no trace. Usually you can’t even get the direction of the attack.

          • Peter (BE)

            Interesting, here we never made the connection between grenades and the recent influx of immigrants. Could you elaborate?

          • Gusto

            Grenades have always been popular with criminals in sweden,

            Ethnic White biker gangs even used rpgs/bazookas

          • iksnilol

            I don’t go to Croatia, was in Bosnia.I said no since I do have a slight phobia of explosives. Have to be stored carefuly.

          • Peter (BE)

            I wasn’t too far off then, lol. Handgrenades best be stored unprimed :S

          • iksnilol

            Eh, explosives themselves are unstable by virtue. Aquire one if you need one in the near future.

            Besides, I prefer firearms: A bullet might have your name on it, a grenade is for whom it may concern.

          • FarmerB

            Nah, most explosives (not the detonators) are amazingly insensitive.

          • iksnilol

            And the detonators are connected to?

            It’s the equivalent of having to disassemble a gun when storing it lest it dump a mag in all directions.

          • FarmerB

            Yes it is, I suppose, but that’s what you do. Detonators are never placed near explosives until ready to use. I was talking about explosives, not initiators/detonators.

          • iksnilol

            Yup, tho I am unsure of conditions of explosives. And am leery of disassembling 20 year old grenades.

          • Peter (BE)

            You just unscrew the fuse assembly.

          • jay

            You seem to be happy to push all the illegal arms on Croatians. It’s the muslim civilization jihad. They bring them in, wherever they go. There’s a reason the no go areas are no go areas. It’s because they have more and better weapons than your police. And your government won’t go in and take the illegal weapons. Out of fear for their lives and offending someone. ;-{

        • .45

          I bought a hand grenade for $10… A practice one anyway. Still counts, right? ;D

        • jay

          Doesn’t anyone get it, this kid has Stockholm syndrome? Only for gun control? He’s a fine example of his people, how else could they keep them cowed so? These people (belgium, belgies?) have been so controlled, for so long, they will never understand what it truly means to be free. It’s amusing watching you all gang up on him, though. I especially love his limp wristed responses. He just doesn’t get it, and probably never will. Sigh.

      • Phillip Cooper

        Exactly which planet do you live on?

        • Peter (BE)

          Earth, and you?

      • Max Müller

        Nope, the size of the black market increases with stricter laws. Thus availability of illegal weapons drastically increases, and prices actually drop becausr of competition. Europe might have well over 100 million illegal weapons (depends on how many missing world war guns are rusty garbage and how many are still usable). Germany alone has created 18.5 million illegal guns with the 1972 gun ban. And a police study has shown that you can get a fully functional weapon with ammunition in less than 3 hours in every major german city. Without any prior knowledge of the criminal scene, just go to your local problem area or train station. A makarov pistol might be 200-300 euro, ak-47 can be had for 500-1000 euro, handgrenades for 100 euro, mortar grenades and rpg-7 are also not as uncommon as you might think.
        And now try to find a illegal, gull automatic weapon in the USA. Have fun. You will either be robbed or end up with an undercover agent.

        • Peter (BE)

          I beg to differ. “Without any prior knowledge of the criminal scene” I would like to see you waving around the 1500 or 2000 € an AK costs on BE streets. I expect you to walk away without either gun or cash. The prices you cite look a lot like source prices in Croatia or Bosnia…

          • FarmerB

            Rubbish. I know heroin addicts that can land almost anywhere and get a hit within an hour (including Belgium). And if you can meet those people, you’re not far away from people who can supply a gun – even if you rent it by the hour.

          • Peter (BE)

            A heroin addict can do that but won’t because his priorities are different. I would like to see you trying to hire a gun or wave around with the 1000+ € in a drug scene you are not intimate familiar with.

      • Vizzini

        I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic. Addicts and troubled youths seem to have no trouble getting hold of drugs and guns.

        • Peter (BE)

          Drugs without a doubt, guns hardly, which was my point, no sarcasm.

          • FarmerB

            That’s just not true, from personal experience.

          • Peter (BE)

            Interesting. About which place are we talking?

      • Bob

        Explain Chicago crime then please? Last I checked that was primarily caused by folks that live in extreme poverty, survive off food stamps (EBT Cards) and welfare. Strange, they can still afford illegally acquired firearms.

        • Peter (BE)

          Because of the ability of cheap illegal guns that even piss poor are able to buy? Aside from a lot of other criminogenic elements?

      • TyrannyOfEvilMen

        Doubtful. For a legal sale, you need money. For an illegal sale money can work but you can also barter sex, drugs, criminal activity, your little sister… options are literally endless.

        • Peter (BE)

          Bwoh, junks typically don’t think further than their next shot and the options for troubled youth for bartering their little sister … well.
          I certainly agree that getting a gun illegaly is easier for a criminal, but for halfway decent people, no.
          I want to see you waving around the 1000€ minimum it will take to buy a half decent gun in one of our problem areas.
          Without prior knowledge you most probably leave without money or gun.

          • TyrannyOfEvilMen

            If you’re going to use a gun in a crime, it doesn’t need to be a Kimber Pro Elite. In fact, if your goal is simply intimidation, it doesn’t even have to be functional.

          • Peter (BE)

            Exactly. That’s why most of the robberies here happen with affordable blank guns or softair. Law enforcement knows this and although it is a risk everytime, the culprits get the chance to learn from their mistakes. That would change quickly if more real guns were mixed in.

        • Will

          It’s like studies showing high school kids can get pot easier than alcohol.

      • Longhaired Redneck

        …”out of the hands of types of certain sociopaths who cannot afford them like addicts and troubled youths”, who then either steal their guns, or buy them for pennies on the dollar from someone else who stole them.

    • oldman

      It worked so well with prohibition didn’t it.

  • JT303

    Bad guys do bad things. They’ll find a way, even if we made all guns illegal. We’re not allowed to have anything for the explicit purpose of self-defence. Seeing as we can’t be protected by the government, even with a police state, there’s a serious problem here, because we’re at the mercy of criminals.

    • Andrew Miller

      That’s quite the predicament.
      Damned to be treated criminally if you defend yourself, damned to maybe die (or, worse, you might live) if you don’t.

      • Peter (BE)

        An illegal weapon doesn’t mean that the self defense is illigitimate. If the shooting is OK, prosecuters don’t tend to go for the weapons charge.

        • William The Warlord

          Does the EU and UK have the legal policy of “no body,no crime”?
          In America,without a body,the police cannot make any homicide arrest!

          • Peter (BE)

            In BE that is not the case. Even without a body a murder charge can stick.

          • William The Warlord

            Without any evidence the person was murdered,I fail to see how any Court could make a conviction.Are you under the Napoleonic system where you are guilty until you prove your innocence?

          • Peter (BE)

            Not “without any evidence the person was murdered” no. Absence of a body doesn’t rule out other evidence, circumstancial or othe though. Example: Andras Pandy. No bodies because they were dissolved in acid. There was testimony from an accomplice, traces of the acid, material and other circumstancial evidence. The guy got convicted.

          • RocketScientist

            Are you SURE of that?? I mean, practically, it would be extremely difficult to pursue a homicide case in the courts without a body, and as such the effect might be that it hardly ever happens. But I am very skeptical that a policy/law actually states that without a body they can’t arrest you for the crime.

          • William The Warlord

            Yes I am sure. See the legal doctrine of “Corpus Delicti”. No body,no ability to prove the crime of murder. Unless circumstantial evidence is so overwhelming to be beyond a reasonable doubt,there is no way to convict or prove that person “A” was murdered.See “Wong Sun v. US, 371 US 471.I could give you a few real examples if you like.

          • RocketScientist

            “Unless circumstantial evidence is so overwhelming to be beyond a reasonable doubt”

            I mean… doesn’t that disprove your point? You claimed the police can;t even arrest you without a body (they very much can). And court precedent (People v Scott) has been established and confirmed many times that if there is enough evidence to convict, you CAN be convicted, even without a body. You stated they can’t even arrest you without a body, then changed it to basically say “they can’t convict you, unless they have enough evidence” which described basically every crime out there, right? Your argument at this point is basically what I said in my first post., namely that it’s gonna be hard without a body, but they certainly CAN convict you (especially now with modern forensics). There is definitely NOT a policy/law saying it is impossible. Check out the wikipedia page for “murder conviction without a body” for details of many cases in the US within the past decade or so of such convictions (or if you prefer a more authoritative source and have access to any of the various law databases check there).

            “The best and easiest evidence establishment in these cases is the physical body of the deceased. However, in the event that a physical body is not present or has not yet been discovered, it is possible to prove a crime took place if sufficient circumstantial evidence is presented to prove the matter beyond a reasonable doubt. For example, the presence at a missing person’s home of spilled human blood, identifiable as that person’s, in sufficient quantity to indicate exsanguination, demonstrates—even in the absence of a corpse—that the possibility that no crime has occurred, and the missing person is merely missing, is not reasonably credible.” (That’s from a criminal investigations textbook).

          • William The Warlord

            Sorry you seem to have misunderstood. Without a body,or a confession,eyewitness or DNA/Blood/Forensics that demonstrates that a life was lost(often through exsanguination)there is no way to make an arrest or obtain a conviction.If the person just disappears,there is nothing the police can do until a body or confession shows up. Read some textbooks on the American rules of evidence and you will see we still follow the common law rule of no body no crime.If there is not a confession,admission or forensic evidence it is possible but very very rare to obtain a murder conviction.

          • Tom

            In the UK I am fairly sure the answer is no (in the case of Tony Martin though had he ‘shot, shoveled and shut up’ I doubt he would ever have been caught). My local police/CPS* succesfully convicted a man of rape despite no victim ever coming forward after he was caught on CCTV.

            * CPS is the Crown Prosecution Service the British equivalent of an American DA.

          • William The Warlord

            Thank you Tom.I find it ironic that America has retained many elements of the old English Common law.In my State of Maine,a person can still legally use force against the police if he has reason to believe their attempt to search his home(Castle Doctrine) is unlawful.You better be legally correct and survive to prevail doing that but several Mainers have! In other states one can use Deadly Force(shoot to kill) against thieves stealing anything,even car hubcaps.In most States the unlawful entry into a residence is deemed sufficient to use deadly force against the burglar.All States allow Citizens to be fully armed with modern weapons and to carry in firearms public.

            Most Americans find it incomprehensible that the UK has abandoned so much of English Common law that we have kept and protected against government infringement.

          • NiteGoat

            “All States allow Citizens to be fully armed with modern weapons and to carry in firearms public.”

            Not in CA. Open-carry is illegal in CA, and concealed carry is “may issue”. If you’re one of the lucky few to actually be granted your CCW permit, it is issued by each county’s sherif, not by the state. Local sheriffs are also left with the discretion to decide who is of “good moral character” and who can demonstrate “good cause” to be issued a permit. Also, self-defense is not an acceptable demonstration of “good. cause” to request a concealed carry permit.

            As of January 1, 2017, all semi-automatic rifles that have the ability to accept detachable magazines are banned under the new CA Assault Weapons Ban. They will no longer be available for sale, cannot be imported into, sold, nor can they be transferred to a family member in the state of CA. Upon the owner’s death, their assault weapon[s] must be turned into or will be confiscated by police for destruction.

            This is why I am moving from CA on the 30th of this month. Not to mention the new ammo purchasing laws and magazine confiscations.

          • jay

            Good Luck Bro! I’m contemplating leaving kaliforniastan as well. Where you heading? I’ve been thinking Texas. Maybe we’ll have a Texit, and can leave all these libtards behind.

          • NiteGoat

            I’m moving to Michigan. Get out of the PRK, ASAP. Prop 63 just passed.

        • DataMatters

          The very idea that a thing can be illegal or legal is already putting you in a one-down position and then they have you. It’s an “illegal gun” connotes wrongdoing where none necessarily exists. Just someone decreed it that way.

          • Peter (BE)

            You’re right in theory, but reality differs. At least where I live.

        • JT303

          In England, even a legally-held weapon makes the self-defence illegal. You may respond with ‘reasonable force’, meaning killing in self-defence is very patchy. A few years ago there was a bloke who lived in the middle of nowhere. Legally had a shotgun. Some criminals kept coming onto his land, he repeatedly told them to go away, phoned the police, the whole shebang. They came onto his land and he told them he had a gun. They didn’t listen, he shot them and was done for murder.

          Unrelated, but highlights the stupidity of our laws: centrefire semi-autos are illegal. Handguns under 12″ barrel and 24″ OAL are also illegal. Guy legally owned several firearms, routine inspection by the police all going fine until they find a small .25 pistol. Rusty, no mags, no evidence that it was used. Guy believed it to be a replica. He could be facing 5 years for the offence, and the loss of his guns. The state of our laws is beyond belief.

          • Graham2

            Tony Martin shot the burglar with an un-licenced Winchester pump action shotgun. That was his downfall!

          • JT303

            Was it illegal? I honestly can’t remember. Either way, it shows that there’s a fault in the system.

          • iksnilol

            Also the part where shot them in the back and let them bleed out. I think that was his true downfall.

          • Peter (BE)

            Yes, UK weapon laws were not what I had in mind as an ideal setup.

          • Tom

            If you are referring to Tony Martin he did not have a valid certificate for his shotgun (his previous certificate was revoked after he fired at a vehicle on his land) which he claimed to have found. He shot one of the burglars in the back which and did nothing as he bled out (which took several hours) he was convicted of murder but this was reduced to manslaughter due to his mental illness so all in all not a very advert for gun owners in the UK.

        • glenn cheney

          But if you are raped, you must apologize to the perp’s publically.
          Explanation please, in disparity of disjunct in the nature of semi-criminal activity, as we all know it is the indegenous populations that creates the issues.
          HAVING said that, I fail to grasp the perception that non-ASSimilator’s are exactly that.
          CURRENT weapon of choice? The coctail, low cost, efficient, draws immediate intended results.
          No need for black markets, just some dumpster diving.
          Empty vino bottle, piece of towel, petrol of choice, how much ignition, flash point, number two diesel for slow baked, like yours rare, the purer distillates have a more efficient RUN RATE.

          • Peter (BE)

            You didn’t drink that concoction, did you? 😀

          • glenn cheney

            Imo, Sir…..You are a TROLL.

          • Peter (BE)

            Then you are mistaken.

      • JT303

        It’s as if they don’t care about us. Which, to be honest, is probably true.

        • glenn cheney

          How do you spell expendable in European?

          • glenn cheney

            Same as spelled in American?

  • gunsandrockets

    “You could say that United Kingdom’s ban on (most) firearms is far from successful. All it seems to have succeeded in is to ban law abiding people from ownership.”

    Ah, but that incorrectly assumes what the actual goal was of the ban. I’m sure that in the eyes of the advocates, banning guns from law abiding people was always the true goal.

    • TheNotoriousIUD

      I dont think its fair to label every country that restricts firearms as fascist. I think its fair to say that the citizens of England, Australia and many other places are mostly in favor of those laws.

      • gunsandrockets

        Who said anything about fascism? In a democracy people get the government they deserve, and in the countries you mentioned they got it all right.

        • TheNotoriousIUD

          Again I think they have the government they prefer.

          • nadnerbus

            I agree. The UK is a sovereign country, and their gun laws seem to be broadly popular there. Doesn’t mean I agree with them, or that disarming the law abiding is moral, but they don’t have anything to apologize to us to in the democracy department.

            Can you ever imagine the US government allowing something like Brexit to be decided by voters? Or allowing Texas to vote on leaving like Scotland?

          • Klaus Von Schmitto

            One can dream.

            “Welcome to the Republic of Florida. Please remember that the importation of citrus fruits and New Yorker’s is prohibited.”

          • TheNotoriousIUD

            After this election cycle with the two “candidates” we have to choose from we should not be pointing fingers.

          • English

            Speaking as an Englishman, you’re bloody wrong.

          • TheNotoriousIUD

            In almost every poll Ive found British citizens are in favor of strict gun laws except for a 2013 Telegraph online poll that showed 80% in favor of repealing the handgun ban.

          • Gary Kirk

            Were all those polls publicly posted on mainstream media/ internet? If so, it must be true

          • TheNotoriousIUD

            The Telegraph poll is about as mainstream as you can get.
            Don’t get mad at the internet.

        • Jako

          Careful, US Election is coming fast and someone they “deserve” might well end up in Office.

          • gunsandrockets

            You write as if I’m not aware of that.

          • Jako

            I’m still holding out for a miracle. I wish you guys the best of luck coming out of this election cycle unscathed.

          • gunsandrockets

            Unscathed? If you are referring to Hillary vs Trump, that is not possible.
            No matter who wins, we lose. The only question, and unknowable issue, is how much loss we will suffer, and which one of them will inflict the most suffering.

          • iksnilol

            Y’all could hope for an apocalypse.

          • Klaus Von Schmitto

            A meteor striking the capital rotunda during the state of the union address would be awesome.

          • iksnilol

            Giant Meteor for 2016: Just end it all already.

          • Tom

            After the 2016 election maybe there should be a new constitutional amendment that all presidential ballots papers have the option for “please put both candidates in jail and loose the key then re run the election and lets never talk about this ever again”.

          • B-Sabre

            I’d be all for a constitutional amendment that replaces federal elections with a draft.

          • gunsandrockets
          • Jako

            As someone who’s been watching from the sidelines, I’m having a hard time fathoming how either of them made it this far.

            Maybe whoever ends up on deck in 4-8 years will be able to undo some damage.

      • DataMatters

        The thing is, people aren’t smart. They just aren’t. They think they are, but if they were, marketing would not work on them. People make up their own reality. In the minds of her Majesty’s subjects, being disarmed does not diminish their role in the world. Having almost no rights and a massive surveillance state means they are “free.” The words don’t mean the same things they used to mean is all.

        One can rationalize anything–witness the people who romanticize fondly about their days living in the Soviet Union.

        I actually desire demonstrable freedom, not theoretical freedom.

        • TheNotoriousIUD

          I think it’s more than a mild exaggeration to compare modern day Britain with the Soviet Union.

          • iksnilol

            I’d rather compare it with Somalia or somesuch. More lawless than Soviet Union.

            I mean, I heard a comedian once say that apparently beating up EMTs was a British thing. So in disbelief I jokingly asked an actual Brit if it was a thing… I was a bit surprised when he confirmed that it indeed was.

          • TheNotoriousIUD

            I cant tell if youre joking or not.
            Im not sure what makes otherwise reasonable gun owners go insane at even the mention of gun control.

      • n0truscotsman

        Those countries actually have more economic freedom than the United States, iirc.

    • Graham2

      Most guns aren’t banned in the UK!

      • gunsandrockets

        You must have a very interesting definition of “most guns” then.

  • Bill

    Interesting how there’s an automatic pivot to the evils of gun control while failing to acknowledge that there is in fact a criminal use for them, both as tools and as contraband. It’s as if pharmacy reps hear about a heroin bust and complaining about DEA pharmacy diversion cases.

    • CarthagoDelenda

      Yes, guns have criminal uses of course, but the gun control has failed to in any way curb the criminal usage of firearms and only harmed law abiding citizens.

      • Bill

        Thanks for validating my point. If there are two pivots I guess that means you’re back on track.

        You do understand that some crimes carry “firearms specifications” which can carry enhanced sentences, and that some felons, being barred from possessing firearms, can face additional charges for doing so? Saying that firearms laws have no impact on criminals and only harm non-criminals is overly broad.

        • CarthagoDelenda

          “You do understand that some crimes carry “firearms specifications” which can carry enhanced sentences, and that some felons, being barred from possessing firearms, can face additional charges for doing so? Saying that firearms laws have no impact on criminals and only harm non-criminals is overly broad.”

          Yes, but that category of laws that only effects the criminal class, and are of no concern to law abiding people, are usually not referred to as “gun control” in day to day conversation. I get what you are saying, and I agree with you mostly, so I think I can chalk this one up to me not entirely understanding the intent of your original post.

        • nadnerbus

          I get what you’re saying, but the laws are already in place to punish criminal use of firearms, and are not pursued nearly as often or aggressively as they should be. Straw buyers in Chicago for instance. Almost never prosecuted, because who wants to jail the gullible girlfriend. In the mean time, 500 plus murders, so they make it as difficult for everyone to buy a gun as possible instead.

          • Bill

            This article is essentially about the difficulty in enforcing laws such as straw purchases and doesn’t even mention “gun control.” The firearms community automatically knee-jerks any legal issues regarding firearms into the evils of gun controls.

            Note how many responses to my post contain “yes, but” or some variation thereof. That’s telling.

          • Gary Kirk

            No, there’s no such thing as a “knee jerk reaction” when we’re constantly under pressure. Yes there are a lot of people that don’t understand both parties, yourself included apparently. Because no one wants to admit any sense of ignorance. Most people understand neither the laws, nor the difficulties inherent in upholding them. Now, that being said, Firearms laws have been written. To be upheld by the agencies who’s responsibility it is to do so. “Gun control” laws are feel good politics meant to drive the majority of the population that have no real understanding of things to believe that “it’s a good thing”. All in the means of disarmament of the populace, thereby reducing the risk of a retaliation against their attempt at a complete take over and subsequent reign..

        • iksnilol

          Yeah, no offense, but if you bust someone for racketering/murder/tax evasion then I doubt an illegal weapons charge is gonna change much.

  • DataMatters

    Bunch of bs.

  • noob

    Does anybody want to see a real gun with a crazy eyes balaclava man hydrodip finish or is that just me?

    • Gary Kirk

      Thought that was the new deadpool dip…

  • jimmyrk3

    “All it seems to have succeeded in is to ban law abiding people from ownership.”
    If only the “smarter than the great unwashed” democrats could understand that. That was sarcasm, I know they know and “just don’t care”…

  • Swarf

    Editing note: In the first paragraph, the HTML is missing an “<a" to close.

  • Peter (BE)

    There are no black and white answers here. While your Balkan observation is absolutely correct, the terrorists that shot up Paris used reactivated AK’s and VZ58’s and Tokarevs from a BE middleman, as shown in the original article. The middleman claimed he thought he was just selling to common criminals. As IS recruits terrorists from the same criminals that might be true. Don’t let them fool you that all recent immigrants are terrorists. More than half of them are non muslims anyway and not all muslims are murderous fanatics.

  • UCSPanther

    Yugoslavia used to be known for its strict gun control, but that went out the window when the Balkan Wars began…

    • iksnilol

      We were?

      I don’t remember it like that.

  • Peter (BE)

    Not really. Gun control of that time consisted of prohibiting military calibre guns creating a logistic difficulty for illicit groups. All other long guns stayed available. Registration indeed had the side effect that you mention which is a very strong argument against.

  • .45

    What culture? I’ve been down there many times and all I really notice are rude old people who think anyone under 45 is a criminal and U turns are legal.

    • RocketScientist

      Thanks for proving my point (some idiot yankee coming down to muck up our roads and complain about how we do things here). By the way… U-turns ARE legal. Also, use a little common sense, all those annoying old people, you think they were born here? No genius, they’re the people I’m complaining about. They are the yankees/midwesterners/west-coasters who retire down here ruin it for the rest of us. If you don’t like it down here, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stay away. then we’ll both be happy.

      • .45

        Heheh. Still, what culture? I’m genuinely curious now. (Also, that’s the first time I’ve been called a Yankee. Oh, and I have never driven down there, so I didn’t muck up any roads. Not sure how I would do such a thing anyway.)

  • Tom

    When I was at Uni when of the Rugby club guys had a bit too much to drink and passed out he woke up to find a Paramedic working on him and still in a drunken stupor and with no idea what was going on he threw a punch, the next time he came into consciousness he had two police officers pointing guns at him!

  • Tom

    To be honest most British people consider any country that was not our side of the Iron Curtain as ‘Eastern Europe’ aka here be dragons. So when they say Eastern Europe they may well be referring to the Balkans.

  • Brett

    So, Nebraskan’s are shipping guns to the UK via radios? Some more explanation or further links to new articles talking about would be nice.

    • Peter (BE)

      Not exactly. But bolts and barrels are sent out of the US to reactivate neutralized weapons in EU. In the US the frame is the firearm and gets deactivated. In EU the frame is left intact and the barrel and bolt is deactivated. This is changing though.

  • FarmerB

    Right, and to battle this, we need to crack down on internet sales of accessories, confiscate firearms from law abiding sporting shooters, ban firearms that look like something from Eastern Europe, place burdensome regulation on people who pose no threat, tie up millions of police hours in checking the inconsequential, monitor and harass the most loyal, and overturn centuries of successful peacemaking through citizen militia.

    Thank God the terrorists are not changing our way of life. This is complete propaganda for the latest EU gun ban from a handful of unelected scum in Brussels.

    • Peter (BE)

      Not at all. The Swiss system looks nicely balanced, but they still benefit from a homogenous society.

  • Gary Kirk

    Send em to west Baltimore..

    • TheNotoriousIUD

      Right?
      If England is too scary then never ever come here lol.

  • Peter (BE)

    I don’t argue that but I talk of the street price you would have to pay to convince a criminal to take the risk selling an illegal gun to an unknown stranger. This is not something I contemplated, this is something I know for a fact – in MY area. By the way, even 500€ is out of the league of addicts and minors.

    • Max Müller

      Oh come on, addicts are not the ones that buy Ak-47s. Biker gangs do when they want to protect their illegal drug factories. Their drug suppliers buy concealable pistols so that they can fight other criminals who might want to steal their drugs. Robbers want small pistols to take your money at the street. Terrorists want guns. And 500 Euro is really not much, steal 3 smartphones and you get that amount of money…
      It comes down to ONE issue: will you survive if they decide to engage you? You might survive the robbery if you give your money, but more and more hot burglaries end with the homeowner in hospital. And Terrorists? You know the average time for police to take out an active shooter? OVER ONE HOUR. More than 60 Minutes or 3600 Seconds. Why do you think more than 50 people died in Orlando and more than 100 in Bataclan, Paris? Because your average cop with 5 minutes response time in city or 15 minutes in the countryside won’t help you. They will wait for SWAT or however their special forces are called. They will take at least half an hour, and then they will make a plan and then probably go into the attacked school/shopping mall/club. If you don’t have a gun to defend yourself you are dead. It is really that simple. And i have the right to live and don’t want to die. So by definition of the HUMAN RIGHTS i MUST be able to carry a self-defense tool capable of taking out multiple terrorists fast and over range. This functionality is currently only given by guns. Thus it is a human right to own a gun to defend myself from lethal threats. The police can’t protect you in the 3 seconds that matter, they are still minutes away.

      • Peter (BE)

        I was referring to business as usual, not the proto civil war that is developing, hence the obvious misunderstanding.

        Arming loyal citizens would indeed seem a viable way of reacting to the threat. Identifying them will be another matter.

      • NiteGoat

        Perfectly stated. Well done, sir.

  • glenn cheney

    Erik, There will be no more problem from me. Godfather movie.

  • glenn cheney

    I believe the point “they” are trying to make is, overtly, IF THE U.S. DIDN’T HAVE so many firearms, there would be less export to Eurolandia.
    P.C. BULL SHIET! I’m dropping the yellow hankie.

    You p.c. folks across the pond: “Now hear this. You IMPORTATION is coming by the same way as your GUESTS you folks just can’t embrace enough of.
    In other forms, I pack a little more “heat” but I’m not hard t find.

    This is pure spun pig ear from silk purses. Arms are copious, in Eastern Europe. Contractural sales point specialists (like that term fellas?) never have any problems with shipping large wooden crates, just need co-ordinates for “brown” to deliver it.

    Here’s the deal, I am not impressed with the time these worms in P.C. Brussels and their ignorance, arrogance, and perception that they can enter this country by medium, and proceed to lecture in a round about way.

    OK, They have their ideas, keep em’ over THERE, with their invited guests, I’m glad they have em’ there, we don’t want em’ here.

    That is not political, it is demographic FACT.

    One of the worst no-go zone “gauges” is blocks from NATO, are you kidding me? These folks teling us we have too many firearms is paid propaganda. They soon, and I do mean SOON will have no time to lecture or educate low level Americans that lack the ability to see conforming to a more acceptable and manageable global protocols.

    I know some folks in here have toyed with this soccer ball in the air, but this post is to tell everyone EUROPE is within the next 12 months going to burn, civil war is now in progress, watch and see.

    Merkel, as predicted OUT. More to come, Europe, is pushing back. Swedes don’t like American’s? They have already lost their identities. Let em’ eat cake, or drink their black hair coloring.

    WAKE UP EUROPE, this guy will end up augmented to defend NATO Headquarters from being torched, in case American’s have not picked up on the new ISIS tactic, fire.
    See Alabama spin on gasoline rupture.

    There is going to be a real awakening soon, in Europe, for now.

  • Graham2

    ‘The brutality of the place’ ? Really? I’ve lived here for 52 years and it’s a great place to live. I also own a load of guns too, so if you have actually been here, where did you go to find it so ‘brutal’? Also, what is an EMT?

    • iksnilol

      The rich areas are probably not “brutal”. That and the fake politeness that’s usual amongst Englishmen makes me disdain the place. Tho people I know don’t mind going there.

      Emergency Medical Technician.

      • Graham2

        The vast majority of areas in England are very nice places to live, have low crime rates and decent people. As for ‘fake politeness’, maybe people are just polite! Good manners are still pretty common (I should know of course because I actually live here) Maybe you would be happier if people told you to f**k off when they meet you!

        Yes, some ambulance drivers have been attacked but this sort of thing is incredibly rare but of course, newspapers such as the crappy Daily Mail would seize on a story like this, as they love to stir things up and scare people. They seem obsessed with trying to make out the UK is dreadful, a bit like various US news outlets do. I’m sorry the truth isn’t what you like to hear but the UK is much nicer than you think.

        What parts have you been to?

        • iksnilol

          I dunno, the fake smiles get to me (easy to spot a fake one). Just creepy, I mean, you just met me. Don’t act as happy as you’d be if the queen just invited you for crumpets and tea. So yeah, polite = okay. Fake sincerity/happiness = disdain from my part. Just chill and be honest. Is that so bad to want from people?

          I’ve not been to England, brother went to London and Edinburgh several times for work/sightseeing.

          Also no, I know how your weather is. I live with the same crappy weather. It’s only beautiful 2 days a year when they take postcard pictures. Like, can we get over the whole dreary, gray city being beautiful ’cause of a ferris wheel and clock tower meme? I mean, I don’t find Berlin beautiful either, or Paris (Paris is just… just a mess, completely illogical).

          To be honest, have not read the Daily Mail so I can’t comment on your politics. Except that the whole Brexit thing was hilarious… and y’all owe Scotland an apology.

          • Graham2

            Ok, so let’s get this straight. You’ve never actually been to England, yet somehow you have all sorts of opinions about how brutal it is and and that people here are full of fake smiles! Don’t let the truth get in the way of a good story!

            I didn’t actually mention our weather but it’s actually pretty good considering we’re in Northern not southern Europe. or are you basing your your ‘knowledge’ on stories of the ‘pea souper’ smogs that London hasn’t seen since the 1950s. Nobody ever said we had some sort of Mediterranean climate here.

            As for Brexit, a lot of people here, the majority who voted in fact, are sick of EU bureaucrats making rules and regulations that we have to adhere to, whether we like it or not. The people of the UK vote for their own government (good or bad) but end up having laws made elsewhere. We are currently fighting some stupid proposals regarding firearms and deactivated weapons, which if passed, we will have to pass into UK law. We will lose anything that looks at all military, semi autos and a host of other guns we can currently own and use- how is that fair?

            People are also sick of paying into an incredibly wasteful and corrupt system.

            If your weather is so similar, where do you live?

            By the way, I hope I’m not being too polite for you but it was the way I was raised I’m afraid…

          • iksnilol

            Well, I’ve never been to Yemen either but that doesn’t mean I should travel there to find out 100% why I exactly shouldn’t travel there. You can have second hand opinions/experiences from folks who where actually there to provide you with the insight to form an opinion.

            How is it fair? Well you voted for it so cant really complain, and y’all are outta the EU so now you cant blame them for stupid laws. Like childrens cartoons say “the power was within you all along”. Or in this case, the stupidity.

            I live in rural Norway. Better economy and nature. And safer community.

            But yeah, you’re not being polite, just a douche now.

          • Graham2

            I actually like Norway and spent a week round Sandefjord, Oslo etc and enjoyed the place. We were meant to go to Hardangervidda but that never worked out unfortunately. We were there for the longest day and it was strange staying up all night without it getting dark.

            We’re not out of the EU for another couple of years, so we may have various things forced on us in the meantime. The EU had a lot going for ir when it was a ‘Common Market’ but it soon went further than that and became a power hungry super state.

            It’s a shame you confuse politeness with someone being a douche; with that mindset you will probably find that most people here are douches. You should actually come here, you’d like it, the Norwegians I’ve met here seem happy enough.

          • iksnilol

            Oh, I see, EU is pretty crappy. I could never get over the lack of democracy in it. Glad I don’t live in EU countries. Seems hypocritical to me “oh great teamwork and democracy… only we’ll take advantage of everybody and it’ll be ruled by a set of people who aren’t elected by anybody”.

            But yeah, I don’t mind politeness, it’s the forced politeness that hits a nerve in me. It’s just that people who made my life living hell always did that “why are you unreasonable, jeremy?” thing in a calm voice after doing everything to make you angry (amongst others stealing my car and then threathening to call the police on me since the car isn’t registered on me). I am still salty about that so I apologize for lashing out.

            I will probably go to England once, since I also want to visit Scotland so might get that checked off the list of countries I’ve visited as well. A bit unusual for me to be honest, I am more used to the world coming to me than the other way (not in Norway, but in Bosnia).

            ALso, that endless day phenomena is madness inducing after a while for some people. I am one of those people. I just can’t deal with constant day or night.

          • glenn cheney

            That is why I post “BREXIT, THE VOTE HEARD’ ROUND THE WORLD.” It’s on the net….Today, American is deciding if BREXIT 2.0 is operational.

  • iksnilol

    Sources please, this is far fetched.

    • glenn cheney

      Which part should I fetch up fer’ ya?

    • glenn cheney

      OK, Just now located your post., wasn’t sure which fetch to go for. The answer to this is not just collated in one location to “goggle.”
      One of the lead BREXIT opponents, was seriously concerned about doing anything to cause un-wanted actions in the populace.
      I’ll honor your request, but it will take a bit of time and I’m hunkered down presently in CIC.
      We might have to take it to another venue as it has NFA’s (so to speak) here in this medium.

      I am no bogie. London Mayor just banned blond haired and blue eyes from public transportation addy’s….makes the burka crowd feel inferior, add NO PETS BAN to London’ers and kilts could get breezy. Yes, he wants and is calling for that policy to be applied to all of Britian. It’s shariah, chitriah, wtf, however you spell it.
      Brits saw the crapball coming, London is the hotbed poitically, but there are pockets in cities that will become serious flashpoints in the future.
      How England deals with this paradox will be fodder for political scientist and pundits alike to debate.
      Another example of Brit irritation:The EU, took the fishing rights of the traditional waters AWAY from British fishermen, aloted those territories to other countries within the EU, and the only way fishermen were compensated was, if THEIR BOATS AND VESSELS WERE DESTROYED. Wholesale redux of an entire industry.
      Now then I ask,” WHEN IS G.BRITAIN GOING TO NOT HAVE THEIR FISH N’ CHIPS?”
      There is, serious concerns underlying the perceived calm. All is not as it seems, just like it is here across the “pond.”
      VIGILANCE.

      • iksnilol

        I googled about the ban on blond haired and blue eyes from public transportation and found nothing, literally nothing about that. So again, where did you get this from?

        • glenn cheney

          I process volumes of info., you are seeing suppression of news, depending on sensitivity, news seems to disappear. I’ll dumpster dive on these issues when time allows, thanx for patience…we working all hands on deck today.

  • glenn cheney

    In certain places in Europe, the “community
    ” is held, therefore NO NEED to segregate the firearms from the “community,” they are one and the same.

  • Frank Grimes

    There is no such thing as a legitimately “illegal” gun any more than there is a legitimately “illegal” book.