MARSOC to drop Colt 1911s from service

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It appears that the last active duty component of the U.S. Military has retired the tried and true 1911. In an article by the Marine Corps Times, Marine Special Operations Command (MARSOC), has officially announced that it is withdrawing the .45 ACP Colt Rail Guns (M45 MEUSOC 1911)from service while completely switching to 9x19mm Glock 19s. Earlier, the SOCOM entity had simply authorized the Glock 19 for limited use with the group. The article didn’t mention anything about the Marine Corps’ Recon battalions which also issue the Colt 1911, but I’m sure this will change in the future as well (Recon falls under a completely different chain of command than MARSOC does). Although these battalions don’t actively engage in operations overseas as much as MARSOC does (apart from a MEU), so it might take some time for the requirement to reach them.

The article specifically mentions the reason of the 9mm versus the .45 ACP debate. Although this must have been an item of serious consideration, I’m almost positive this is more of a public relations reason than anything. The Colt Rail Gun has seen some publicity regarding cracking in the frame, especially from the 12,000 round endurance test ran about five years ago. This, in addition to the reduced capacity and the need for a concealable handgun while working in discreet locations are probably the actual reason for the switch rather than the stated one.

“We put our money behind the 9mm round fired by an extremely well-trained marksman carrying a Glock 19,” Mannweiler told Marine Corps Times.

Since last year, MARSOC has purchased and fielded 1,654 Glock 19s because Raiders needed a reliable secondary weapon “that could be used for both a concealed carry profile and a low-visibility profile,” and having one approved pistol for all special operators saves money, he said.
“Based on lessons learned in our operations, we also took into consideration how well a round could penetrate objects of varying densities and in different environmental conditions,” Mannweiler said. “We concluded that a 9mm round suited our needs.”

 



Miles V

Former Infantry Marine, and currently studying at Indiana University. I’ve written for Small Arms Review and Small Arms Defense Journal, and have had a teenie tiny photo that appeared in GQ. Specifically, I’m very interested in small arms history, development, and Military/LE usage within the Middle East, and Central Asia.

If you want to reach out, let me know about an error I’ve made, something I can add to the post, or just talk guns and how much Grunts love naps, hit me up at miles@tfb.tv


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  • Disarmed in CA

    .45 ACP is overrated

    *ducks*

    • valorius

      Agreed.

    • Porty1119

      I love .45ACP, but yes, it is overrated. It does offer improved lethality over 9mm, especially if expanding ammunition is out of the question, but is far from the soul-killing wonder-caliber that many folks would have you believe. I carry a 1911, but am cognizant of its strengths and weaknesses.

      • Dougscamo

        Yep, I am constantly amazed at the common perception of the .45 ACP power. Carried .38’s, .357’s, 9mm’s, and 40 S&W’s on duty for years…and sometimes carry a .45 1911 for S$%ts and Giggles (love shooting it)…but my primary reason for carrying any of them is to keep something off me until I could get to a shoulder weapon that would really do the job….

      • nova3930

        Most people have no idea of the concept of tradeoffs. All other things being equal, at pistol velocities a larger diameter bullet is going to cause more damage than a smaller one. But all other things are not equal. That bigger bullet comes with increased weapon size and/or reduced capacity. In the commonly available handguns you can get nearly double the capacity in 9mm compared to 45. That’s part of the reason I prefer 9mm for CCW since the ammo I have on me is it. At home where I can retreat to a rifle if necessary, it’s a 45 that sleeps next to the bed…..

        • Dougscamo

          I will not argue with that logic….

        • iksnilol

          But y’all do forget that most pistol bullet holes are pretty darn similar due to the round profile of bullets pushing instead of tearing through flesh.

          • Sulaco5

            True but also the larger the diameter the slower the round in action (generally), in handgun rounds velocity does a lot of the work….

          • Dougscamo

            The perp will still say “Ouch!”….not really, he’ll say “hockey”….or its street equivalent….

          • iksnilol

            “Gosh darn it to all heck”

            But in all seriousness, my point is that the diameter of pistol bullets doesn’t affect the size of the wound much.

          • Dougscamo

            I agree that velocity and upsetting (mushrooming, not the social connotation…though I would indeed be upset) is the factor that causes the greatest damage (hence using a rifle), but what say you about getting hit with a 68 caliber round ball from a muzzle loading pistol….other than gosh darn it all to heck? Not argumentative just curious….

          • iksnilol

            Woukd probably cause less damage than a modern FMJ.

          • Dougscamo

            Oh, I don’t know about that….if not killed immediately, the .68 soft lead ball would probably carry enough cloth into the wound to where your adversary would die a long lingering death….or they used to anyway….gangrene is nothing to sniff about….sarcasm….

          • iksnilol

            Yeah… but um… but modern medicine, baby!

          • Dougscamo

            Ah, Ah, Ah…..I said “they used to”…hedged my bet knowing you would point that out….of course, now, you will point out that they didn’t have 9X19 back then….
            Having said that, I have seen 9mm and .45 wounds and neither were impressive….now a .270 to the head was VERY impressive…along with the much maligned 30/30…and 20 gauge birdshot as well….I think this equine is deceased…

          • Kivaari

            That is so true. A thigh wound from a 7.62 NATO, 7.62x39mm, 9mm or .45 all in FMJ will likely be nearly identical, if you believe the research done by the US Army.

          • eddyjames

            most pistol bullet wind up in sheetrock. I’ve never heard of any single individual that survived 7 acp rounds in chest cavity.

          • iksnilol

            Which ACP rounds?

            .32 ACP, 380 ACP or .45 ACP?

            Because you’ll most likely be dead from 7 shots to the chest from either to be fair.

          • eddyjames

            My point exactly. Even .25 acp if placed correctly will do the job.But like I said most wind up missing and end up in sheetrock.

          • Core

            FBI has reports of engagements with 45 Auto where individuals have been shot many times in the chest and ran a mile or two before they dropped.

          • nicholsda

            Unless you use some thing like a Ranger SXT +P round. One nasty round in .45ACP.

            And as others have said, it is for fighting your way to a rifle in the home. But I carry a Commander sized 1911 for CCW and have no problem hiding it.

      • supergun

        I would not want to be shot with it, whether it is overrated or underrated.

    • AC97

      But, but, muh .45 stopping power…

      • Porty1119

        *is flung backwards twenty feet*

        • KestrelBike

          Preferably through the batwing-doors of your local saloon.

        • Uniform223

          that is just with one .45… imagine duel wielding. You can clear out an entire safe house populated by 1920’s gangsters…

      • Disarmed in CA

        My favorite gun friend claims straight-faced that if you get shot with a .45 in your outstretched hand you will be hit so hard as to spin around like caught in a vortex until you hit the ground.

        • AC97

          Seriously? For goodness’ sake, people are retarded. That reminds me of this gem I found yesterday (for context, the thread was about if a .308 for home defense was viable, and at some point, shotguns got brought up, and this idiot just had to chime in):

          “No slugs, too much penetration. 00 buck shot, will fling any intruder across the room like a rag doll. Instant death. Anybody behind him would likely get knocked down as well.

          A .308 (my favorite rifle caliber) has too much penetration, even if it’s an hollow point, will go through an intruder and sheetrock like… well …a bullet.”

          Before you lose your faith in humanity, he got called out for being an idiot.

          • Dougscamo

            Ignorance strikes every second….unfortunately it has a tendency to strike the same person….

          • supergun

            especially hillary.

          • Sasquatch

            Oh wow the level of stupid….

          • dltaylor51

            My 1911 45 is only with me to make sure i can get to my rifle and its the best gun made for that job.Its not a primary arm its a side arm and our military leaders keep trying to reinvent a wheel that is already perfection and has served well since 1911, all they are doing is wasting millions of our tax dollars trying to prove themselves right.

          • kyle893

            Shotguns with 00 buck can do some scary things to people. A shooting in Chicago on hispanic gang members saw one of the three guys arm completely severed. The 22 lr to the head vs Shotgun to the foot thing was funny because depending on the range it could actually rip someones foot off. The “insta-death” and “fly across the room” bs was setting this guy up for failure, but shotguns can do some serious damage. Im sure most people here know that, but I’ve heard some forum bs that thinks a 12 gauge shotgun only leaves little holes that close.

          • Core

            A shotgun using buckshot is better than a .308 for home defense.

          • AC97

            And a 5.56 is better than a .308 for home defense; I’d personally take an AR over a shotgun.

            The point was that the guy was a f**king moron for saying that buckshot will instantly kill someone and fling them across the room, in addition to them saying a .308 will overpenetrate when they literally just said that buckshot will “probably knock the guy behind him down”, thereby contradicting their own argument.

          • Mark Wynn

            Believe they were trying to say the buckshot would probably knock the target backwards, into another guy behind him. Didn’t say the buckshot woul penetrate through the target and into the second guy.

          • AC97

            You’re probably right.

          • Kivaari

            Except it doesn’t knock people down.

          • Core

            Yeah, I couldn’t tell. You can thank Hollywood for that. I lost track of how many times I read some internet experts proclamation of absolute truth.. If only we could get the firearms industry and training industry to stop making trend based claims to peddle stupid. But I guess that’s just business..

        • Black Dots

          Sounds like your friend likes movies.

        • Kivaari

          The same stories I heard as a kid in the 50s.

          • Core

            A high velocity 40mm bean bag round might reinforce that theory..

        • Curious-carry

          My 65 year old ex-Marine father-in-law told me the same thing. I just nodded.

          • Billy Jack

            Old habits and myths die hard. Time to shoot them all with a 9mm using modern expansive rounds in a high capacity magazine.

          • supergun

            Wouldn’t want to be shot with any of them.

          • nicholsda

            Military can’t use hollow points, only ball ammo in a war zone. So the loss of the .45ACP is a loss of fire power for them.

          • Billy Jack

            But depleted uranium 9mm ball is legal 😉
            On the other hand, torture is illegal too. Who’s going to prosecute them?

          • nicholsda

            But wouldn’t it defeat the lighter weight idea behind the use of the 9mm. 🙂 I think shooting them with non depleted would be better. That way they’d kill off their partners too.

          • Billy Jack

            That’s my thinking but upgraded to plutonium. Evacuate the area and a few tactical nuclear artillery shells with low yield settings enabled would make everyone happy. No more problems in Aleppo and other ISIL hangouts and they get fast tracked to those 72 virgins. Not much fallout to circulate the globe. But then all the various agendas couldn’t play out.

          • Kivaari

            An M9 with three magazines is 48 rounds, v a M1911 is 21. The M9 is more controllable. Substitute a Glock 17 and you have a lighter weight pistol with 51 rounds.

          • nicholsda

            Don’t know where you came up with the 1911 numbers but they are off. In mine I have 9 rounds in the firearm and another 16 to 20 in the 2 spare mags. 7 round is the old standard for the mags while 8 is the new. There are 10 round mags for 1911s that work quite well.

          • Kivaari

            We were issued 7 round magazines. 8 round are OK, 10 round extend too far. So go with the 8 rounders and you get 24 rounds. More magazines, OK, 5 magazines and you have 40 rounds, that weigh a ton and require twice as many reloads to get fewer rounds. If you are up to using extended magazines, I have 33 rounders for the Glock. I use a
            3-cell SMG pouch for them.

        • Phillip Cooper

          Y
          Your friend is a moron, and you’re doing him a disservice by not telling him as much.

          • Disarmed in CA

            I’m not going to alienate a friend over a harmless misconception; not one who lets me shoot his guns!

          • supergun

            Good comment. Wise man.

        • Mike Lashewitz

          LMAO!!!

        • MR_Mr_Deplorable_Hapla

          That bit was used in “the Loo Sanction”, Trevanian. Sequeal to the Eiger Sanction of movie fame.

      • nova3930

        Carry a BFR and you won’t question the stopping power of 45 :p

        • Dougscamo

          Big F$%king Rock?

          • nova3930

            Biggest Finest Revolver in .45-70 😀

          • Dougscamo

            Yep, has to be accurate and powerful….kicks so dang hard that you’re afraid to shoot it twice 🙂

          • nova3930

            From seeing a BFR in 45-70 shoot, I figure at CCW ranges if you missed you still light the guy off with the muzzle flame 😀

          • Dougscamo

            That might REALLY spin a guy….without hitting him….

          • Anonymoose

            They’ve made them in .50-110 and .50 Alaskan. If you ever wanted to go handgun-hunting for dinosaurs, the BFR is the sidearm you want!

          • Billy Jack

            Grizzlies is dinosaurs.

          • nicholsda

            Gators and crocs are dinosaurs.

          • Billy Jack

            Obviously, it was a joke. Chickens are dinosaurs too.

          • KestrelBike

            If you shoot someone with it twice, it’s considered a violation of the 8th Amendment.

          • Tony Miller

            HILARIOUS!!!!!

          • supergun

            460 is not bad either.

        • supergun

          You are right. The 45 is KING. They keep coming back to the 45.

      • SP mclaughlin

        Tell that to the deranged lawyer in Houston who tried to use a Thompson replica to kill people…

        • Dougscamo

          Using “deranged” and “lawyer” in the same sentence is redundant….

          • Lammo

            I resemble that remark.

          • Billy Jack

            Today’s Bravest Man Online Award goes to you 😉

          • Harry’s Holsters

            Best comment of the day!

          • Dougscamo

            Thanks but the tip of my hat goes to Disarmed in CA……

    • Dougscamo

      I’m afraid that you are about to “suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune”….but not from me and I shoot ’em all….

    • Minuteman

      No it isn’t 😉

      Anyways, basically it’s all the same. Hollow points are hollow points. MARSOC is not under the Hague Treaty, so yes they do use hollow point ammo.

    • retfed

      Nuh-uh!! .45 is the awesomest, bestest round ever! My neighbor’s cousin’s barber’s granddad carried one in Vietnam (or maybe it was Belleau Wood), and he shot a Nazi (or maybe it was a North Korean) with it, and the bad guy did a double backflip and flew apart in midair! True story!
      Try that with your effeminate little Europellet.

    • Bill

      Any gun that can be man-carried and fired by a single human is over-rated.

      • Bud

        Like an RPG? LAW rocket? 40mm grenade launcher?

        • Bill

          Those aren’t guns. My point stands.

          • Bud

            Yes two aren’t guns, upon rereading your post I realized you did state guns, not simply man portable weapons, but the 40mm is very much a gun so no, your point doesn’t stand

          • Bill

            Until they make a 40mm IWB holster and I can get the ammo at Ferd’s Gas & Pizza, it ain’t a gun.

          • Bud

            SEALs in ‘Nam cut down M79s to something that a big (very, very big) man could carry not just IWB but AIWB.Think of it as a derringer for the Hulk. As for ammo just order it online, Amazon has crates of the stuff cheap at Fast and Furious guns and ammo, ask for Mr. Holder for the best price..

          • James Young

            I think it’s time to open a gun store in El Paso named Fast and Furious Guns…….Just a random thought

          • Kivaari

            ATF made the practice rounds and flares into unlawful ammo, let alone the DPHE.

          • Core

            Or the W54 in a M388 Davy Crockett Projectile fired from a man portable recoiless rifle?
            Ten tons of fun!

    • Sasquatch

      Hehe yea….. Come here ya punk!

    • USMC03Vet

      True story.

      But what is more overrated than the .45 ACP? A Glock.

      • Kivaari

        A Glock in .45. What .45 are you talking about ammo to guns is an apples to oranges.

    • Uniform223
      • Disarmed in CA

        LOL!

    • n0truscotsman

      You’re absolutely right.

      Ill go a step further: Its obsolete.

      And Im not ducking. I have a macuahuitl in hand and am not afraid to swing it 😉

    • supergun

      Load a Cor Bon 165 gr. 45 in a H&K USP 45 Tactical and shoot it. It will change your mind.

    • Core

      45 is more effective at killing Humans than 9mm, this is backed by data from DOJ of rounds to lethality. The groups of larger caliber pistol cartridges have greater lethality than smaller calibers. The switch was because the 9mm is more economical. 9mm is cheaper, you can carry more ammo in a smaller space, it’s lighter, it has similar albeit lower lethality, it penetrates very well. The Glock is also much cheaper than the M45A1. It’s lighter, and probably slightly shorter. But unlike the claims it’s not easier to conceal than a single stack 1911. The benefits of the Glock in 9mm outweigh the M45A1. When you consider the MARSOC Marines will not be getting into a firefight with pistols in 99.99% of engagements, I think the Glock in 9mm will fall short of the M45A1. I might suggest a Glock in 45 Auto instead. Most engagements with MARSOC will be secondary draws in close quarter combat. At which point a 45 will be slightly better at eliminating the threat. The 9mm will never be better at stopping Humans than a 45 Auto, but it has it’s place.

    • Wingbert

      I carry a 45 because they don’t make a 46

  • Bob

    Logic in a Government Branch of Service! AMAZING!

    Never would I have thought that the USMC would have been the first to finally ditch the strange quixotic love affair with the 1911 and adopt GLOCK. Yes, it isn’t Branch wide but it’s a start. Hopefully logic kicks in at DoD and they adopt the Glock as the new military wide service pistol.

    I know this news is hard on 1911 fans. It is as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced.

    • valorius

      Many US military forces have been using G19s for years, including the Rangers.

      I think it’s an extremely stupid idea, privates and glocks dont mix very well, but only time will tell.

      • James Young

        Well this is MARSOC, so stupid shouldn’t be an issue

        • valorius

          Hopefully, you’re right.

          I couldn’t imagine all the limping that would be going on if the US Military adopted the Glock as a standard issue weapon. LMAO.

          • john huscio

            Glock becoming the standard servicewide is pretty close to happening

          • valorius

            If my military experience is worth anything at all, i’d say there is zero chance of that happening.

          • Minuteman

            Even the Russians have gone the Glock route.

          • valorius

            Which has absolutely zero to do with the US military.

            In any case, the Russian standard sidearm, the MP-443 has a manual ambidextrous safety.

          • Minuteman

            I was referring to his observation that Glock is basically taking over the entire military pistol market all over the world. This analysis is correct. Everybody is switching over to either the Glock 19 or 17.

          • valorius

            Except the Russians, and my guess- the Americans. I will be truly SHOCKED if the US Army selects the Glock.

            Time will tell.

          • James Young

            Who could blame them, smart move. What does any country get with a Sig or whatever? Better ergos sure but more issues if dropped in water, mud or sand

      • Bob

        Just like the 30,000 NYPD cops that carry Glocks!?!?!?!?!?!

        Look…. PFC Snuffy can handle a Glock safely if Big Green Army actually teaches their recruits on proper handling. But Big Green Army doesn’t. They barely teach folks how to handle the Beretta 92FS.

        The Armed Forces has an aversion to training their personnel on handgun safety and usage. Only the high speed guys get it and that is through outside commercial sources or other training centers run by agencies like the FBI HRT.

        The majority of the world issue Glock in one flavor or another. the entire UK MoD ditched the Hi-Power after 60 plus years of service and adopted the Glock 17 Gen4. If a bunch of UK troops can handle a Glock; and they’re from a culture that doens’t respect or own firearms. Then I think some country guy form Alabama that grew up bird hunting can handle a Glock.

        TRAINING is the key here and no branch of service except for the USCG really pushes pistol training amongst the majority of the “combat arms”.

        • valorius

          Cops have far more sidearm related training than soldiers do.

          And lots and lots and lots of cops shoot themselves, btw.

          • M.

            That’s why they have 12 pound triggers, actually. Everyone kept shooting themselves after switching from revolvers

          • valorius

            I concur.

          • Kivaari

            We were issued 3.5# triggers. No real issues, except for a cadet that washed out.

          • James Young

            Some cops do, others dont have much at all. Not every soldier/marine gets a pistol. They go through a course if they want to carry one.

        • Anonymoose

          Just like the 30000 NYPD cops who have 12lb triggers in their guns so they can’t hit for crap but they will never go off unless they really, really want them to? Maybe we should just hand out S&W .38s again.

          • nicholsda

            And when NYPD cops shoot, everyone on that street is in danger. From the cops.

        • valorius

          Unless things have changed, the majority of the world uses a CZ-75 variant.

          • James Young

            Not a bad choice. Hammer vs Striker…why doesnt the US Army want an external hammer? I’m guessing it’s easier for dirt to get into the hammer area

          • valorius

            I’m guessing because trends be trendy.

        • valorius

          Deliberately mass issuing a gun that is known to be extremely unforgiving of mistakes to privates would be an extremely stupid thing to do.
          – A former US Army infantry squad leader.

        • nova3930

          DoD doesn’t push handgun training because most troops never have a need of a pistol. Outside of officers, MPs and SOCOM types, they could probably do away with pistols entirely with little to no impact to operational capabilities….

          • valorius

            I agree.

        • iksnilol

          We literally never say anything positive about NYPD and them being armed. Sorta weak support for your argument.

      • Black Dots

        “Privates and Glocks don’t mix very well”…wait, are we talking appendix carry?

    • James Young

      What’s strange is that the Marines are making a logical decision that will also save money

      • Minuteman

        In the ammo realm you mean? Quite possibly, yet small arms ammo is a small portion of the overall budget. The M45A1 CQBP has been tested thoroughly for its parts durability. It’s a whole different ball game from the old 1911A1. So I’m not really sure about where you’re heading at? Care to elaborate on your statement?

        • CommonSense23

          M45 is more expensive than a Glock 19. Needs more mags than a Glock 19. And far more maintenance than a Glock 19. It’s a far more expensive gun to run.

          • Minuteman

            True. I get all that. First thing that came to my mind though was the T&E. Parts showed to be very -exceptionally- durable.

            Off: I kinda f******’ hate to see these darn Glocks show up everywhere I don’t want ’em. Navy SEALs, FBI. All of these agencies used to be solidly in SIG’s corner.

          • john huscio

            They still would be if sig was able to build reliable pistols after 2004.

          • Minuteman

            I agree when Cohen took over as CEO SIG QC went out of the window, it’s hard to imagine that it affected their flagship line though. But they fixed it now. The classic P series work.

          • James Young

            The P320 is pretty solid, they might adopt it

        • Ron

          They had to 1) throw out most of the failures during the final round of selections 2) waive the reliability requirements to adopt the weapon

          • Minuteman

            Strange, not that I know of and I’m rather familiar with the Marines…

            If what you say is for a fact, it’s yet another example that no 1911 other than a high end 1911 actually works. WC is pretty much the gold standard where it comes to 1911. Of course there’s no chance any Military would place and order. Maybe Delta, but I can’t thing of another outfit that would get the authorization for such cost prohibitive items.

          • Ron

            The adopting of the gun was because there were 1) numerous previous attempts that failed 2) Syscom knew if this attempt failed it would never happen because money was drying up.
            The selection of the type of weapons was heavily influenced by the high number of former Force Recon Marines involved in the process and that the service already had 50K Magazines on hand (later 2/3s were of an older style that needed to be DRMOd)

          • Minuteman

            Yeah thatswhy WC supplied the mags.

    • The first? Unless you read this differently than I did…

      > “… that the last active duty component of the U.S. Military has retired the tried and true 1911.”

      Sounds like they are the last to ditch it, not the first.

    • Jaehaerys Targaryen

      First to finally ditch? The Army adopted the M9 in 1985.

    • Sulaco5

      Spock?

    • Dougscamo

      I love this blog….nowhere else will you see Marines, Glocks, DoD, AND a Star Wars quote in the same post…..:)

    • Colorado

      The fact that the Glock can be purchased by an Gu’bm’t agency for about $250.00 and the big Colt will run them nearly $1,000.00 has nothing at all to do with the USMC decision. Just a side benefit…….. yeah…

    • NickG

      Navy SEALS adopted the Glock19 a while back. MARSOC is a ‘me too’, and non the worse for it.

      • CommonSense23

        Marsoc was using the Glock well before the Seals were.

        • valorius

          It is worth noting that there is no M designation for the glock because all the branches realize it would almost certainly never pass an actual US military trial when it comes to safety.

          All the units that have adopted it have done so as COTS.

          • CommonSense23

            How would a Glock 19 not pass a military trial when it comes to safety?

          • valorius

            No manual safety will work against the glock big time in any US trial.

          • CommonSense23

            Are you forgetting the Sig 226?

    • 11b

      The only reason this makes sense is that it’s SOCOM related. The regular military would do take 25 years to figure it out and it would be overbudget. Then it would get cancelled 🙂

    • NukeItFromOrbit

      So the entire military should adopt the damn Glock despite there being better pistols on the market? That’s stupid.

  • valorius

    Didn’t the jarheads just buy that new 1911 in the past couple years?

    They’re already worn out? Or the military is just spending yet more money on yet more un-needed systems?

    • Just spending more money

      • valorius

        That’s what i figured Phil.

        Well, since we have such a huge national surplus, what can it hurt?

      • Minuteman

        Doesn’t Glock give ’em away basically for free? “You just pay for the support behind them”-kind-of-contracts.

        • valorius

          Knowing the US govt they paid $1000 a piece for them.

          • Minuteman

            Your ass heads at work, gentlemen…

          • Kivaari

            It was closer to $300 the last time I read about the things. The Marine general said they made too much sense to ignore any longer.

          • valorius

            Did he walk away from the podium with a limp? 😉 😀

          • Kivaari

            I suspect the NDs will be less than the M1911 was. At least in my era the training for the M1911 was almost non-existent. A Glock is easier to train people with.

          • valorius

            1911’s were always carried condition 3 at my unit. The 1911 is also a very unforgiving design when it comes to “oops” moments.

          • Kivaari

            In the Army we didn’t even insert a loaded magazine. In the Navy we carried fully stuffed pistols. Normally in condition 2, hammer down on a loaded chamber. Lots of opportunity for slip ups.

          • valorius

            Condition 2 with a GI .45 eh? LOL, talk about an ignorant chain of command issuing that particular standing order.

          • Kivaari

            While in port you would hear a shot go off at watch change infrequently. Especially the 0001-0400 watch end.

          • valorius

            But, but…professionals don’t make mistakes.

            My bestie is a prison guard in Philly. They just had a dude have an ND when changing shifts there. (Glock 17). They even have a chambering/clearing barrel, but he didn’t use it. Cause he’s a pro.

            Soon to be unemployed too, i’m guessing.

          • Kivaari

            Probably re-trained. Lose a couple days. Likely union protected. My “training” on the M1911 in the Navy was what I brought with me from home. Informally the PO in charge had me disassemble and reassemble the pistol. Than “fam-fire” off the aft. That’s it. Shameful. The gunners mate was shocked that I knew how to do it.

          • valorius

            I actually got to shoot the M9 for qualification (expert) because i was stuck on a range detail where we set up the qual course. 🙂

          • nicholsda

            When dad was in the Navy, he was fully trained on the 1911. And a whole batch of other weapons, explosives, and fire starters. He had courses in demolition from the Marines and took courses on base defense weapons from the AF just before shipping out on a ship that had 2 M2s for self defense. And Thermite charges in the hold. He stayed qualified with the 1911 from 1946 to 1971 when he retired. And at age 80 could still hold his own with one. He did not care for the 9mm round even though I bought him a Sig P226Mk25 and a P228.

          • Kivaari

            Not on our ship. We had the GMs being about the only ones trained. They handed some of us M1 rifles, without training, for various duties. It’s not that we were without guns, since we had 5-54s, SM1 missiles, ASROC, torpedoes, M2s and small arms. They just did not train any of us outside the ratings.

          • nicholsda

            Dad’s part of the Navy was a little different. As a CT, they often had loaded 1911s within reach even stateside. His first ship had bigger guns though. 9 of them that threw VW weight shells. And secondaries of 5″ turrets that GMs or Marines manned. His last ship was the one with the .50cals. They were there to give time to set off the charges in the hold.

          • Kivaari

            Poking into harbors and bays where the other guys are is dangerous work. Like the Pueblo incident. A friend was doing that in North Vietnam and China BEFORE the Gulf of Tonkin event. An old ship stripped of most gear for bait as the others listened to the enemy radar signals and communications. Very dangerous work.

      • USMC03Vet

        Yup. Modern USMC “special” has been around for less than a decade and are on their 3rd handgun model and 2 caliber changes. They are chasing the gear dragon like special units do counter to the hallmark of Marines excelling with whatever hand me downs they are given to complete tasks. The youngsters on the block of the socom scene wanted to be unique and now in order to obtain the unobtainable(no boot status) amongst the community are now in with other older units pistol wise. The reality though is that once something becomes standard issue in special the never ending allure of special kicks in and many will use the non standard again.

    • Anonymoose

      They had frame or slide cracking or something even in testing iirc.

      • valorius

        And they still bought them?

      • Minuteman

        Don’t worry, that is incorrect. The M45A1 CQBP is fine. Not WC fine, but it’s fine.

        • Ron

          Actually it did happen in round 2 of testing, round 3 of testing they were allowed to make a midstream change on the guns and have all previous failures thrown out.

          • Minuteman

            Somebody’s gonna have their 6 in the wind over that….. Geesh… And here I was thinking I was well-informed. I’m gettin’ old fast…

          • Dougscamo

            Doesn’t take long….look at the iPhone 7….

          • Minuteman

            They sure did a fine job on vs Samsung catch up growth. Remember the Iphone 4 (IIRC) scandal where they used to overheat and blow up right next to your ear?…

          • Dougscamo

            LMAO….and I’m still using a $29.95 burner….

          • Klaus Von Schmitto

            LOL. Virgin mobile loves my family too.

      • n0truscotsman

        the arfcom thread about it was interesting. I saw the writing on the wall back then

    • Bob

      Some Genl/Col wanted a cushy retirement job with Colt so they pushed for a 1911 again. The mindset of the 1911 is no different than the 7.62x51mm fans.

      “Hurr Durr! I needz 7.72 NATO to bunch through a car door! And I can engage targets up to a kilometer away!”

      Never mind the fact that normal combat ranges are under 300 yards, aimed fire while crucial isn’t the biggest key since you want to pin your enemy down while you can maneuver your forces to kill them. And let’s not forget that weight is EVERYTHING.

      • iksnilol

        And that 7.62×51 isn’t really good at 1000 meters either, farthest I’d recommend for normal use (IE no bench or belt feed) is about 800 meters.

        • john huscio

          I prefer 7mm08 over 308 for most practical uses.

        • Kivaari

          You are correct. Standard ball starts to go unstable a little over 800 meters.

      • Ron

        The reason it was selected was they knew if new 1911s were not bought on this round of trials it would never happen because budgets were being cut.

      • M

        under 300 yards is a dated statistic

        • M

          The opposing force is not dumb enough to engage within effective range of the enemy’s general issue weapon if they can help it. IIRC most current engagement occur around 500 yards and are via PKMs and other weapons using full sized rifle cartridges. In return we have dusted off old battle rifles and done the same

          • Ron

            It is a little more complex than that, yes the engagement distance have opened up in some places but they are not normally rifle v point target engagements, but instead machine gun v area targets.

          • M

            I’m just making the point that combat changes over time and the enemy will always make it a point to minimize a weapon’s effectiveness. We saw it in Vietnam when the VC kept so close the US couldn’t use artillery without friendly casualties, and now we’re seeing it in the sandbox where the insurgents are picking at us with machine guns and bolt rifles then slipping away

          • Ron

            I know we have found bolt guns before in Iraq and AFG, but it was not really the case that they were engaging outside of the ability to fire back because they were using a larger round that outranged us. In Iraq they would just either fire from hiding or blend with the crowd. In AFG they would shoot at the end our abilities to see them and make up for limited shooting ability and only having to shoot at area targets by using belt feeds and crank off large bursts.
            I remember for a while our Mk12s were the most effective rifles we had because the Muj down south understood the capability of the RCO and would hang out at a distance we could not PID them, so the Mk12 gave us the ability to see in the areas we could not with the 4X RCO and shoot them.

          • Owen

            The VC were employing the Soviet tactical doctrine perfected by Chuikov at the Battle of Stalingrad, which he called “hugging the enemy.”

          • valorius

            It seems to me that in response we have issued everyone short range carbines, then acted confused when the entirely predictable happened.

      • Dan

        But with 7.62 i dont need to pin them down. I can just shoot them. Lol. For fun I lob in .45acp so i can get their soul too

    • Mark

      That’s Force Recon. They still use the 1911.

      • Regis

        Those recon guys are badassed to the max! I think they don’t get the respect that they deserve. All you ever here is seals, seals ,seals.
        Recon are right up there with them. When I was still a active jarhead
        I witnessed their awesomeness!

    • Jason

      MARSOC is a part of JSOC. Other units in JSOC already adopted the Glock 19 as their standard sidearm. This is probably more of a logistical decision.

      • valorius

        A simple glance at JSOC’s TO&E leads one to believe that JSOC couldn’t give one crap about logistics.

        It’s the gun of the month club. 😀

    • Core

      This is what happens when Glock fanboys infiltrate MARSOC.. But to be fair I’m excited to see how MARSOC can improve the Glock, so I can get in on a gen five socom mod.

  • Dougscamo

    When I first started this comment, I was looking for the guy that posted the Joker meme in the post announcing the French military adoption of an H&K rifle….”And here we go”…where is he when I need him?

  • Malthrak

    Why this took so long is astounding. The 1911 has been obsolete for decades in the face of other equivalent weapons that pack more than twice the magazine capacity with dramatically fewer long term reliability issues and are available at far lower price points.

    If nothing else I guess it goes to show just little utilized handguns actually are in modern combat when pistols can be retained for decades largely for nostalgia and cool factor long after relevant service life has passed.

    • Minuteman

      Lot’s of Old Fartism in the Military!

  • Brad Nims

    I’m a 1911 fanboy. It was the first handgun I ever shot and I’ve had a love affair with it ever since. As much as I love the 1911 I can’t say I’m opposed to this decision. While still an effective platfrom despite its age, there are more modern designs that are more appropriate. I’ll never stop loving the 1911 and I certainly won’t deny it’s an effective platform, but I won’t deny that it has been showing it’s age for a while now.

    • Minuteman

      I’m kinda with you on that one. I like the feel of the 1911 but that’s about it. I don’t like too much external safeties on my handguns. SIG man here… I like P226/P227’s. P227 Nitron would be my choice if I were in charge and had to compromise on maintaining .45 status quo.

  • AC97

    This was really long overdue.

  • Hoplopfheil

    A branch of the military makes a smart decision?

    Now THAT’S news.

  • Rob

    The story is more nuanced then is indicated. The M45A1 was born from a Marine Corps requirement for many different units inside the of the USMC organization. MARSOC was not among the initial fielding of the pistol and were only included after much dispute. It was never truly their baby but they had a collective freak out when they weren’t originally planned to receive them. The big Marine Corps only needs to supply MARSOC with service common weapons, which the M45A1 is not but they got it any way. And went they got them they didn’t want them for obvious reasons(mostly 100 years of small arms innovation that was absent). I imagine that the M45A1 will remain in service with the USMC for some time regardless of what MARSOC decides. Remember this is the service that justified the IAR because you couldn’t put a bayonet on the SAW. No that grew into a great program but it can show you some of their decision makers heads are at.

    • Ed

      100% right on!

    • Kyle

      Well I mean if you need to fix bayonets and Pvt. Schmuckatelli is slacking off with no bayonet you will get overrun by the Chinese.

    • Bullphrog855

      That’s not the justification of the M27. There were a lot of studies done with 2-7 Marines etc. about the effectiveness of the IAR concept before the M-27 competition even started. The founding of those studies is the justification.

    • Ron

      Some people take a nuanced view that since MARSOC was not in the first 3 rounds ,this the fourth round of replacing the MEU-SOC, later M45 that (did not exsist at the time) that they were not included in the initial proposal. However this is not true the CDD for the weapon that became the M45A1 did include all MarSoc Critical Skills Operators, Force Reconnaissance Marines and Base HRT.

      “Remember this is the service that justified the IAR because you couldn’t put a bayonet on the SAW.” The requirements to be able to fix a bayonet was in the CDD and RFP, however that was not the distractor from SAW, if you read the Marine Corps Gazette articles from Apr 2001 that the inception for the IAR, the lack of a bayonet was not a reason to ditch the SAW.

  • Anonymoose

    Well that didn’t last long lol

    • Dougscamo

      There will be more words fired over this one than bullets on Flanders Field….

      • Black Dots

        That was poetic as hell, dawg.

        • Dougscamo

          Forgot my quote marks….

    • USMC03Vet

      The other US SoF units are going to have to bag on MARSOC in a different way now. This literally changes nothing.

  • Ed

    Sad day. But doesn’t mention Army Delta uses Glock 21 .45s though Marine times is not always accurate on its sources. Let’s see if other news sites say the same.

    • Anonymoose

      Do they? I thought they switched to G23s and then went down to G19s too.

    • James Young

      Does Delta have an issue weapon? My guess is they carry what they want

      • Minuteman

        Yeah they do, they have their own shop.

    • Marc

      I’d like to see a source on the Glock 21 claim.

    • Bob

      Detla uses Glock 22 in .40 S&W. Even had Glock make them desert brown 22rd mags for their G22s. .40 S&W is a better cartridge for suppressed use than .45 ACP.

      • iksnilol

        .40 being good for subsonic, how?

        • Black Dots

          Yeah, how is a supersonic round good at being subsonic?

          • Beju

            180 gr .40 loads out of a 4″ barrel are generally subsonic. How they’re better than 230gr .45 loads besides having a slightly flatter trajectory, I don’t know.

      • milesfortis

        Not just 22round but 15 round (w/a + extension that gets you one more) brown G22 magazines as well.
        And they also have the G19.

      • Harry’s Holsters

        I’ve heard they’re running 9mm slides for the most part now.

    • Minuteman

      Delta get to take their own pick. 45, 9, whatever makes you happy and falls within the established ammo logistics chain.

      • Harry’s Holsters

        It would kinda be cool if they carried 9×25 Dillion!

  • ConsulClemens

    So… They’ll be going to the CMP right?

    • Harry’s Holsters

      Let me know when that happens and I’m sure it’ll be for $450 OTD! haha

    • Edeco

      Yep, I need one to put a blue laser and orange, transparent lexan grips on.

  • Dougscamo

    The Disqus server is beginning to overheat………

  • Just say’n

    Hopefully these will be headed for CMP soon….

  • SnakeEater-0317

    Holy crap. There’s a lot of uninformed dudes in here. I’ll stick to facts for right now. The “new” replacement for the the 1911 is not necessarily new. The Glock pistol has been in service for a few years now within the organization.

    The 1911 on the other hand, has been in service since it’s inception. When Marsoc stood up from Force Recon, it brought with it the Meusoc 1911 hand built by Marine Corps PWS armorers in Quantico.

    Eventually the Marine Corps saw fit to replace the Meusoc pistol with the Colt M45A1. The Marine Corps essentially asked Marsoc if they wanted to participate in the program and Marsoc rogered up. Both Marine Reconnaisance units and Marsoc issued the new 1911.

    Neither units had anything good to say about the performance of the M45A1. Marsoc ditched it early this year.

    The M45A1 is STILL IN SERVICE with RECON units.

    One more time, the pistol is still in use at bn recon.

    What you have to say about it doesn’t matter. If you have a problem, take it up with your congressman.

    A list of questions to ask yourself if you really are on team USA:

    If the guys using them like them, then who am I to say what caliber is best for them?

    If someone has to transition, would I want them to have a high capacity reliable firearm, or something that only works when it’s not raining?

    • Ron

      It is use with base SRT and Force Recon. However, having been privy to much of the development of this pistol the whole reason it was adopted was the weapons selection committee knew if they were not bought on this round of trails it would never happen because budgets were being cut.

      • SnakeEater-0317

        Ron, totally forgot about SRT. Thanks. I don’t know what you can actually talk to on this forum regarding the acquisition process, but I had a few questions.

        As a caveat, I’ve chatted with quite a few 2112s about the purchase, I’ve had personal experience with the platform, I’ve talked to guys in other communities about their pistols, but I’ve never actually met or talked with anyone with firsthand knowledge. So please allow me to pick your brain a little.

        First, the majority of ours were cerakoated, to include feed ramp. When it rained it stripped said cerakoate and jammed it into chamber area causing failure to feed. Was that identified during initial testing?

        What were the benefits other than the amount of replacement pieces? Cost?

        Have you heard any CoAs from the other organizations that currently field them? Are they interested in moving to another platform (m9) or are they satisfied.

        • Ron

          The newer guns are ionbounded instead of cerakoted

          The requirements for the gun were

          The CQBP shall be constructed of corrosion resistant materials or coated with corrosion resisting protective coatings.

          The CQBP shall not be adversely affected by exposure to
          petroleum, oil and lubricant products, insect repellents and other common battlefield compounds.

          only corrosion resistance was tested in phase II of the testing with 24 hours of salt fog and only showed significant amounts of corrosion on the iron sights and on the exposed portion of the magazines. The rest of the guns showed little to no corrosion. The guns did undergoing environmental testing to include being frozen and spray with water until with approx. 3mm of ice formed and was scrapped off.
          Honestly there were not many benefits other than PWS could not produce enough guns let alone repair them fast enough to meet demand. Since 2111s can do parts swaps it does provide some advantages of not having to send guns back to MEF or Quantico to get them fixed. When you consider the full cost of the program to include testing etc, it was not a very wise buy in a period ofwith diminishing budgets

          • SnakeEater-0317

            Ron, thanks for the insight.

    • Black Dots

      But but but, if the military doesn’t use the gun I like, then it will turn to dust and I won’t be able to defend myself during a home invasion!

      • USMC03Vet

        That appeal to authority fallacy glock lives on and the consumers dumb enough to fall for it. 😂

    • USMC03Vet

      Don’t care how special the unit is, you don’t need to go through 3 handgun models and 2 calibers in less than a decade.

      • SnakeEater-0317

        I’ve glanced through some of your posts. Obvious Marsoc hater. Its cool man. I started off in the infantry as a 31 in caat. You probably hate me for that. I spent the rest of my time in the infantry in STA, I’m sure that to you I’m a “Prima Donna” who couldn’t handle the time in the line. I did my time in 29 palms. That makes me a lesser Marine somehow, too.

        So, I’ll say this, I agree with you. An organization, no matter how special shouldn’t waste tax payers money needlessly.

        It’s also apparent that you didn’t fully read what I had wrote above or you didn’t understand the conversation between Ron and I.

        Understand, the M45A1 was not a Marsoc purchased weapon system. It is property of the USMC. That’s right. The good old Marine Corps decided on that pistol. Marsoc only accepted delivery after Marsoc was told it needed to deissue and send all existing Meusoc pistols to pws for dem-milling or whatever they did with them.

        The glock on the other hand (love it or hate it), was also NOT a Marsoc item. Marsoc didn’t just decide to buy a bunch of blue labels. The glock is a socom specific weapon system.

        Marsoc gets a menu, two pistols are on it, one doesn’t work. They return one, keep the other.

        Sure the unit does take on some of the cost. That’s the way funding works, but Marsoc didn’t just dish out 100 million dollars of taxpayers money for a 1911. That came from the same dudes that issued you your camelback (the one you have in your closet because it was too dirty to return to cif)

        Lastly, if you were in the infantry, and you went to combat, you know how nasty (can I cuss on this blog?) that environment is. And you know, whether you like us or not, that dudes are there doing work. If something happens to their primary weapon system (which is very real) and they absolutely need to transition, wouldn’t we want them to have the best weapon system available? It’s already a bad day if the pistol needs to come out, why would we want them to have an even worse day by providing a sub-standard product?
        At the end of the day, we’re all on the same team, and the dudes here bad mouthing the organization would be the first ones to say something patriotic and scream “why don’t dudes down range don’t have the best kit available.”

        And just to reiterate, Marsoc does not have the authority to just go Springfield, colt, glock, and start purchasing firearms. Those decisions come from either of Marsoc’s two bosses. Usmc or socom.

        Hope it provides a little insight into how things actually work.

        • USMC03Vet

          Can I get your autograph?

  • Minuteman

    Wait a sec, ‘last unit to shelve the 1911’? I think the article is incorrect. The Marines use the M45A1 CQBP so the 1911 is alive, kicking and here to stay. Makes perfect sense as the USMC is under the Hague Treaty. And you know the saying: bigger bullets make bigger holes.

    • It was a Convention, not a Treaty, but we’re splitting hairs here. And, the U.S. never signed the Hague Convention…at least not the part that applied to hollow point rounds. Particularly, the convention described, “The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.”

      The U.S. did not sign in agreement to that convention. Although we didn’t sign, as a matter of policy we have agreed to respect the convention informally. We are not bound to it. Where the U.S. did sign within the convention, however, is…

      “…it is especially forbidden – To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering.”

      There are some units in active service that employ hollow point (or open tip, as they may refer to them) in pistol, but not rifle, munitions.

      • Minuteman

        Why should we be politically correct and feel bound to a Convention that was held over a hundred years ago? It is beyond me… And those conventions pertain to nation-state militaries in the first place. Nobody ever heard of Daesh, Al-Nusrah, Hezbollah, Al Shabaab, Hamas, Fatah, Al Aqsa, Taliban and so forth back then. I do not for one second consider our nowadays enemies to be legit within the framework of those conventions anyway. So I say screw it. No treaty, no convention applies to terrorists, criminal syndicates, roaming warlords and what not have you in the hotch potch we call non-state actors. They’re outside humanitarian laws of war and should be dealt with accordingly.

        • I won’t argue that. I’m not saying we should. I also say, “screw it”.

          • Minuteman

            We all know it’s the GDHP’s and OTM’s that get the job done. Interesting though, because the SOST technically is exactly that, an OTM….. Aside: I’d vouch for the MK318 to be 5.56’s Nirvana by the way. It won’t get any better than that.

          • Ron

            In both Iraq and AFG 147 grain 9mm match (hollow point) DODIC A260 was readily available

          • Minuteman

            I think we should standardize on that and use 124gr where 147 isn’t needed. Same drill with SOST +77gr in situations where it’s needed. And dump everything else. We don’t need TSX rounds either as SOST is already barrier blind.

          • Ron

            A260 is Federal Hyshock, really an obsolete projectile. The bureaucracy in DoD would probably takes years to adapt a newer projectile.

          • Minuteman

            HST obsolete? Man that round does some serious damage… Now, Speer LE GDHP’s on the other hand…. THE gold standard!!

          • Ron

            Hi-shock (my mistake in the first spelling) is not HST, it is a much older design

          • Minuteman

            No problem. Oh ok, mea culpa. Still though, I consider Speer GDHP to be the pinnacle of handgun defensive/military ammo.

        • Ron

          We shoot ourselves in the foot all the time, we have agreed to remove cluster munitions from usage while we acknowledge all our potential advisories will still use them

          • Minuteman

            That was another idiotic decision indeed. We all know that a cluster munition is VERY effective. God forbide another major war though. I pray for all madness on earth to stop everyday. As for adversaries, I don’t see any of our obvious enemies packing cluster bombs. They’re all ‘Classed: Technical Militia’, strictly third rate thirld world muppets.

        • RSG

          Agreed. I believe step 1 in war fighting rules is to wear uniforms. Step 2 is not to use civilians as human shields. So…using hollow points should be a no brainer. Hell, I’d consider tactical nukes more than appropriate at this time.

          • Minuteman

            I agree on everything but the tactical nukes. The problem with Syria is that there are a lot of Christians living there that suffer from all kinds of atrocities and human rights violatons brought about by Daesh. So we need to route Daesh one man at a time, meaning we need boots on the ground -lots of ’em-. The Christians in Syria need our help, and they need it yesterday. The nuclear option isn’t on the table as far as I’m concerned. Unless we plan on wiping KSA off the grid (which will never happen because of the powers that be -the big oil and big finance jerks and what have you).
            We are at war with radical islam, gentlemen. Anyway, firearms, not politics…. So on topic: like I said earlier we need to use 124/147gr GDHP’s and OTM’s (SOST & SMK) in our pistols and general service rifles, and ought to dump eveything else which in turn can be used as training ammo effective immediately.

      • Dougscamo

        Question…no argument…just for my personal edification, is the the convention that banned buckshot as well? Which we continued to use….not a judgement; observation…dead is dead whether or not they were shot with PC munitions or not…..

        • Honestly, I’ve no idea. Hague is incredibly boring and I’ve only read the parts of it as it pertains to “expanding rounds”. I’ve ignored everything else. As dumb as the sections over “expanding rounds” are I imagine other sections are equally as dumb.

      • CommonSense23

        They are plenty of units that have been using open tip and hollow point rifle ammo.

  • Sulaco5

    The reasons they gave for the change are all valid,…sigh end of an era though.

  • iksnilol

    That’s why mah homie, V to the alorious, said a CZ-75 *variant*

    Most countries clone the CZ, get some local jobs going whilst getting a darn good pistol.

    EDIT: The revolver was the police gun in the US, the rest of the world didn’t cling to outdated relics.

    • Dougscamo

      Yep, carried a TZ-75 (free world, Italian variant; probably a redundant statement to you guys) on duty when my agency allowed the transition….had to provide my own sidearm…and shotgun….that sucked!

    • valorius

      LOL 😀

  • Klaus Von Schmitto

    I understand they have updated the Geneva Convention rules to prohibit destroying your enemies souls so it makes sense.

    • Dougscamo

      Sarcasm?….It’s so hard to distinguish these days…

      • Klaus Von Schmitto

        The part about the Geneva Convention was. The part about the 45 ACP being able to destroy souls certainly isn’t.

  • codfilet

    Glock fanboys rejoice!

  • Joel

    “Power” is not an objectively important consideration when it comes to FMJ handgun rounds. Penetration is. And, the 9MM FMJ has been known as an outstanding penetrator for a long time. A diameter increase of 0.1 inch isn’t that big a deal. Almost double the magazine capacity is.

    So, I don’t know much about the Corps. Does this mean that the last of the Colt M45s are being withdrawn? If so, that is very surprising.

    • Ron

      M45 were the renaming of the MEU-SOC 45s, the CQBP made by Colt is the M45A1 and those will continue to be used by the 3 MEF’s (and Marine Forces Reserves) Force Recon Companies (they are assigned to the Div’s Recon Battalion but TACON to the MEF) and Base SRTs.

      • Rnasser Rnasser

        Ron, that’s about how many M45A1 still in use? Were spares purchased as well (it seems it was the original intention)?
        Are there any old MEU-SOC 1911s made by the USMC armorers still in use?

        • Ron

          They last of the little over 4100 guns were to be bought this year.
          M45s were all sent to Albany to put into storage, PWS probable still makes guns but those are for the Scarlet and Gold shooting team.

  • Dracon1201

    The real issue is that there just isn’t enough rounds in a 1911. .45 does very well, as does 9mm, considering wounding doesn’t necessarily end a conflict, I’d take the increased capacity.

  • A Fascist Corgi

    The lack of thumb safeties and the drop in quality from the Gen 3s made in Austria to the Gen 4s made in America has soured me towards Glock.

  • Black Dots

    Whatever, I’m still waiting for the Glock 7 to be adopted by the military.

    You might not have heard of it, but it’s a porcelain gun made in Germany. It doesn’t show up on airport X-ray machines, and it costs more than what you make in a month!

    • RealitiCzech

      You’d be surprised what I make in a month!

  • valorius

    I said the majority of the world, not the majority of the world’s military forces.

  • valorius

    A glock is functionally very similar to a COCKED revolver.

    I welcome you to carry a cocked revolver with you at all times. It’s not my leg you’d be shooting.

  • valorius

    Again, loads of cops shoot themselves (and their kids) with their glocks. So i can definitively state that lots of cops CANNOT in fact, handle their glocks.

  • CTFish

    Will they surplus thru CMP?

    • Harry’s Holsters

      We all wish!

  • FactChecker90803

    Ah so sick of Glock this Glock that, someone is getting paid off.. My favorite guns are the New Roger American in .40, SIG 320, with a S&W MP .45 coming in 3rd.

  • Both targets should look the same if a person can shoot.

    • roguetechie

      Phil,

      Not necessarily when it comes to aimed rapid fire. Even discounting magazine capacity disparity I can consistently place 6 shots from a 9mm where I want them in less time than I can put 6 shots SOMEWHERE on a human silhouette target with a .45.

      Does that make me a bad shooter?

      Or does it just mean that I can more effectively use a 9mm?

      Personally I see it as option 2.

      I’ve very specifically set out to do apples to apples tests between 9mm & .45 multiple times and consistently done MUCH better with 9 every time. Maybe if I was bigger it would be different, but since I’m not it’s not different.

      Because of this I identify with the picture with those two targets, while still acknowledging the exaggeration for comedic effect in the two targets.

      • Harry’s Holsters

        Dead on! Handgun rounds all suck! So use the one that allows you to make the best hits the quickest.

        • roguetechie

          That was exactly my point, making hits that have a high likelihood of stopping an assailant is what I try to train for.

          I know in a real situation my accuracy is going to degrade quickly and possibly substantially. The one thing I have really tried to work on is training realistically in order to drill the basic movements into muscle memory.

          • Harry’s Holsters

            Same here. Perfect practice makes perfect. I’m amazing what purposeful dryfire has done for my shooting.

        • nicholsda

          In my case, it is whatever I have loaded at the time. Some people just don’t have a change in muscle memory from a 9mm to a .40S&W to a .45ACP. Mine that I shoot are all heavy guns. 1911s, S&W 4006, or even S&W 659. I normally carry a 1911 with two extra loaded mags so I still have a high round count. About 2 dozen rounds in total.

  • A bearded being from beyond ti

    I would like Glocks more if Glock fanboys weren’t so insanely obnoxious.

  • Gregory

    So, how much money did they piss away on a 1911’s?

  • Will

    Can I get a show of hands from everyone who is the least bit surprised by this?????
    Yeah, me neither. But at least they didn’t waste hundreds of millions of dollars and man hours beating round the bush selecting a new pistol.

  • David B

    I love 1911s. Absolutely love them. And I hate glocks. Again, absolutely. However, I understand that in the terms of a pistol that is truly a sidearm (unlike a civilian carry situation, where your handgun is your main weapon) that needs to be standardized among a large number of people and won’t be afforded the care many people take of their CCW guns, something like a glock makes sense. It’s cheaper, lighter, can be neglected, and the caliber is almost a moot point since actual combat use of a sidearm is relatively low (that could be different for any special forces, but still probably very secondary to long arm use). For a civilian carry piece, go right ahead with a 1911, but in the world of military weapons it is time for them to respectfully retire after many years of good service.

  • ozzallos .

    There’s nothing wrong with the 1911. Or 45acp. Or even the 9mm. Different guns for different missions. Chill.

    • Kivaari

      Same gun, same supply chain and same training makes it more sensible to issue one model. Fear the guy that has one pistol as he likely knows how to run it well. Stop playing around with things like the M1911. Just like issuing fewer rifles. Make them all on the same system as much as possible.

    • CommonSense23

      What mission set,would,it make sense to carry a 1911 over a Glock 19, Sig 226, or a MK24?

      • ozzallos .

        One where you want a round with more mass that can be easily silenced? Besides, the stated argument cuts both ways– “We put our money behind the 9mm round fired by an extremely well-trained marksman carrying a Glock 19,”

        Okay, these guys are such great marksman that the caliber shouldn’t matter. So opt for the heaviest round possible, right? And don’t even get me started on how often somebody has rolled out the “Well it’s just a last resort anyway” trope.

        A 1911 is fine. At least a modern, non-government contracted 1911 is fine. They’re very slim and reliable. Yes, I said it. A *modern* 1911 is reliable and the 45acp is still a formidable cartridge.

        • CommonSense23

          A modern 1911 is going to cost more than a Glock 19. Require more maintenance, and weigh more.
          As for 45 vs 9mm. The difference between them is minimum. The 45 is no formidable round. Its a pistol round. Capacity is key in a military defensive handgun.

  • Kivaari

    An excellent choice. There are so many reasons that the Glock 19 and 9mm make sense that the playing around with the M1911 should have been considered a joke from the beginning.

  • Edeco

    Shoulda went with 34’s.

    • Orion Quach

      CCW was a factor

  • ElderAmbassador

    I would still rather go into a gun fight with a .45 – either ACP or Colt. Remember, it’s all about Where the bullet goes!

  • Sledgecrowbar

    Owning everything from .32ACP to 10mm in semiautomatic handguns now, and regularly shooting them all, I have come to like .45 as a possible favorite. I started with 9mm of course and have gone through far more of it than anything else due to sheer price difference, but if you can handle a .45 that has the capacity to compete with your average 9mm magazine, you have, I think, a superior weapon. You have to be able to get a good grip on a big handgun though. Otherwise, comparing 17 rounds of 9mm to 8 rounds of .45, I’m still in the sensible group of people who think capacity trumps single-round energy or mass for defensive purpose.

    Being a very old round, it’s lower-pressure, and while this is technologically inferior, like a 1970’s American car making 25 horsepower per liter, as it compares to 9mm, I like how it shoots better. In practice I can get back on target probably about as fast with either option, but the .45 *feels* easier to control, which makes me more confident, and that’s worth something in a panic situation.

  • RealitiCzech

    Fun fact: The Mk23 weighs the same as a 1911.
    I’m sure the 1911 was adopted as a prestige thing, but after the “new toy” buzz wore off they realized that the switch to a doublestack 9mm in the 80s had real logic behind it.

  • Glenfilthie

    Yeah well- the Marines are also recruiting queers and women for combat roles too.
    *flicks safety OFF on God’s calibre 1911*

    • MichaelZWilliamson

      You punks with your small caliber pistols. .54 cal is the only caliber a REAL MAN carries.

  • jerry young

    I’m a big fan of the .45 I carried one throughout my time in the military but I carry a 9mm my reason has nothing to do with the size of the gun, I carry a full sized 1911 style 9mm it conceals easily with a custom made IWB Kydex holster, what made me switch to a 9 was capacity, My 9mm holds 17 + 1 compared to the 7 + 1 of the .45, next is the 9mm is the most common carried round so if you were to run short on ammo you stand a better chance of picking up dropped ammo of the correct caliber or sharing ammo among who you may be with, I can shoot it as accurately as the .45 maybe a little better and finally I have switched to a polymer framed 9mm that cuts down on the weight a little, I just don’t think a .45 in polymer is a good choice of the ones I have shot the full metal .45 is more accurate and reliable, I have 9mm’s in both while I like the full metal version better the weight is the biggest consideration.

  • Lucas

    The ammo choice aside, the 1911 is an outdated weapon platform. The US military has a problem with letting things go, an example of this is the continued use of the M14 over the MK10/11.

  • Klaus Von Schmitto

    WTF is going on in here? I leave for a few hours and this is what happens?

  • Rodney Jenkins

    I would have chose the Glock 23

  • Richard

    I big part of them changing to the glock might be that they want something that isn’t obviously American if it turns up in some area that they aren’t really supposed to be

  • richard

    This is about 15 years overdue. I really can’t believe how many people out there are still pushing for a 1911 to compete with any modern polymer framed handgun. Most of these 1911 people however are typically over 50 and pushing 300 pounds with the old school mentality.

    The 1911 was an excellent weapon for its time, one of the best, but FOR ITS TIME. A Glock or any similar polymer framed handgun such as H&K VP, Walther PPQ, FN Five-SeveN, Beretta APX, Sig P320, etc. is just so much better and more efficient in so many ways: higher magazine capacities, MUCH easier disassembly, reliable, more ergonomic, less weight, lower cost, less parts. These guns are designed around efficiency and fit the soldiers of the 21st century.

    Caliber wise, stopping power is a myth, Period, look how many people have been killed with a single .22 or .25 bullet. 45ACP only increased felt recoil, lowers capacity, induces more wear and tear in the gun, costs more, and is not as popular as 9mm anyway nowadays. The FBI is switching back to 9mm for a reason and has a ton of data to back it up. I would rather shoot someone twice with a 9mm than once with a .45.

    Glocks are more reliable than 1911s period. Take a $550 Glock, put it against a $550 Rock Island Armory and lets see who comes out on top. Then take that same $550 Glock and put it against a $900 Ruger 1911, and lets see who comes out on top. Oh wait, take that same $550 Glock and put it against a $1,300 Kimber, and given the junk Kimber has been pushing out the last half decade, the Glock will win.

    Anyone who disagrees with this and still thinks the 1911 is the greatest gun in the world, please post as to why BASED ON FACTS, any please don’t start with “its American,” or “if it don’t start with a 4 and end in a 5, it aint no good,” or “one shot one kill.”

  • Chuck

    So in starts out by saying the last active duty Marine unit carrying the 1911 is getting rid of them. Then it states that Recon units are still carrying them. This article is full of non-true statements and you should have fact checked better. This means that the 1911 is still used and in service by 3 different active duty Marine units. Bn. and Force Recon as well as the SRT teams for the MP’s. All of which deploy. Also the new Colt 1911 is the M45 CQBP for close quarter battle pistol. The M45 MEUSOC pistol was the non-railed version that was built by PWS and the issued 1911 to Recon before the current Colt.

  • HAHA73

    Well that didn’t take long.

  • Warchild_70

    I’ve used revolvers in .38, 38+P and it’s where the bullet hits that counts. Along time ago I had a Raven .25 for a back up I could place 4 out of 5 in the face at 5-8 yards. My 27 years in the Military (Navy and Army) I loved the 1911 and shot expert in both service’s. A Browning High Power was issued to me in Vietnam and I like the high cap magazines low recoil felt. Now the M9 like the Browning is OK but to me the Glock may be too picky to operate in extreme environments but that is just my opinion due to unfamiliarity of the pistol. My home defense is simple, a Model 327 S&W with 8 .38+p+ semi wadcutters to back up my .20 ga pump. My hope is that the bad guy lives to go to court and explain himself. However with me behind the trigger all bets are off.

  • Mike Lashewitz

    I LOVE my 45 only because I have big hands. Everything else feels like a toy. I hope the military will sell their inventory off at a reasonable price. $350 range maximum.

    Hmm 45/70 in a pistol. Sounds fun…

  • pismopal

    The 9mm is a penetrator..the .45 not so much.

  • dltaylor51

    Its no wonder we haven’t won a war since 1945,we have morons in position making important decisions that are way above their pay grade.

  • Francisco Machado

    When do they auction off the 1911s?

  • Bob

    a 9mm in the military using a BALL (FMJ) round !!
    what a step backwards. I could see them going to a Glock in maybe 40, 45, or even 10 mm (oops….the ladies hands and wrists are too small……so now I’m a what? a female phobe??)
    Certainly not PC.
    They ought to read about the Philippine Insurrection around 1908 !
    Must be another “FOLLOW THE MONEY” with our third world cartel gov’t now!

  • WRBuchanan

    I have posted this comment of several forums about this same thing and received mixed responses.
    In the first two paragraphs in the comment by MARSOC it states very plainly that it is about money and then there’s some other BS like we trust our highly trained operators with a 9MM.
    The 9MM has been compared to the .45ACP since 1900 and our Army decided after much deliberation that the .45 was a better choice. They could have done either or something else. They chose the .45 for it’s ability to stop more people with one shot than the 9MM would. This was backed up by Battle Field Autopsy’s from 2 World Wars and numerous armed conflicts.
    Nope,,,This is all about money,,, as Obama has literally defunded the military and I have the Bank Account Balance to prove it.
    They did have the good sense to go with Glock Pistols which I think was a good thing, but they could have gone with G21SF’s which are .45’s.
    Randy

  • maodeedee

    With FMJ ammo, they’d be much better off going to a Glock 23 in 40 caliber than the Glock 19 in 9mm, but adopting a new caliber presents logistics headaches that the military does not need.

    I have had a Glock 19 for many years and then got a 23 and I don’t notice any difference in recoil between the two. but even with modern projectile technology I still believe in, “The bigger the hole in the hull, the faster the ship will sink.”

  • Bill

    Old Slab Sides won’t retire. It will just smile and go back to rest for awhile until all the other pretenders realize that real men don’t play with little boy’s toys when in combat. The .45 has been traded in, thrown out, put out to pasture many many times, but we always see ole Slab Sides coming back. Again and again.

    The Glock model 19 is an excellent 9mm and in my opinion the best. However, it ain’t no knock down tare your arm or head off weapon and the .45 is.

  • Mikial

    This really is less about the .45 vs the 9mm than it is about ammo capacity and most of all, reliability. I like 1911s and my wife and I each have one, but neither of us carry one as an EDC. I like my G21 because it has more ammo capacity and frankly I trust it to function under any conditions; she likes her Beretta 92 with 17+1 and greater reliability she has proven herself in many hundreds of rounds through both of them.

    IMHO, the USMC is going to the G19 because of its concealability, ammo capacity and reliability. No matter how you feel about them, the simple fact is Glocks are like the old Timex watch commercials . . they take a licken’ and keep on ticken’. Beyond that, while the .45 is a great round in a one-on-one shootout with a bad guy or two, 8 rounds is just not enough in the typical combat zone firefight.

  • efred1

    According to some FBI testing, the .45 will penetrate a car windshield from a horizontal glancing shot, where a 9 mm will readily ricochet off, requiring several shots before penetration. The .40 S&W, supposedly, was the smallest, lightest round that would penetrate like the .45.

  • Mikial

    Like I said, it’s less about .45 vs 9mm than it is about reliability and ammo capacity, not to mention a standardized ammo to be shipped all over the world. If you still want a .45, for a combat environment you’d be much better off going with a G21. More reliable with greater ammo capacity.

  • Sid Collins

    Maybe we should quit asking the military and law enforcement what handgun and ammo they want to carry. Hear me out.

    Moro tribesmen high on whatever did not quickly die from .38s carried by the US expeditionary forces. Which lead to the adoption of the .45ACP bullet and specifically the 1911 adoption.

    FBI Miami Shootout led to the development of the 10mm bullet which then became the .40 cal which is now losing market share to the 9mm.

    North Hollywood shootout lead to the adoption of long rifles by California law enforcement agencies because a police officer armed with a 9mm handgun was outgunned.

    First wave of OIF, we heard from contractors that SF operators had poor performance from the 9mm and were requesting their wives ship .45s to them.

    Just stop. Train the users to shoot. Train in various scenarios. And be willing to admit that bad guys do not fall in mass when struck by bullets.

  • Kent San

    Bingo. As a total 1911 fan you said it exactly right and this is the real basis for the change. Fools stating it’s because Obama took all our money are just that — fools.

  • Kent San

    It was many years ago. They aren’t that big an org, Decimal dust in terms of $$$$.

  • Hurri Cane

    I’m keeping my 1911. I blame it all on Jeff Cooper!

  • David J. Stuehr

    I have sorta smaller hands. The Glock 19 has been a good fit for me for many years. And I consider it to be an incredible all-around self-defense pistol. It is reliable, easy to carry, easy to conceal given the flat shape and it has a 15 rd magazine capacity. The trigger took a bit of getting used to but the gun is very accurate at handgun distances.

  • JoelM

    Just wait till Glock releases a .22LR pistol. They’ll be all over it.