Myth Busting: .22 Magnum vs. 5.7x28mm

pmr30_8297_2-tfb

Inevitably, Kel-Tec’s new .22 Magnum (WMR) chambered PMR-30 pistol will be compared to the FN Five-seveN pistol which fires the ballistically similar 5.7x28mm cartridge. If people are not saying it now, they will be soon saying that the .22 Magnum is the same as the 5.7x28mm. I used to say the same thing. It turns out that this is far from the truth.

Kel-Tec PMR-30 pistol. Photo by Oleg Volk.
FN Five-seveN USG

Kel-Tec have stated [PDF Link] that a 40 grain .22 WMR round should reach a velocity of 1230 fps from the 4.3″ barrel of their PMR-30 pistol. This works out to 134.40 ft/lbs of energy.

This is a significantly less than the FN Five-seveN USG (4.75″ barrel), which can push a 40 grain bullet at 2009 fps. This works out to 358.57 ft/lbs! Nearly three times as powerful as the .22 WMR! 1

This does not mean that the .22 WMR is not a good cartridge. It simply means that the 5.7mm is optimized to be fired from a pistol, rather than the slower burning .22 WMR loads which are designed to be fired from a rifle.

5.7x28mm. Image from Wikipedia.
.22 Magnum / WMR. Image from Wikipedia.

UPDATE: Added correct link to specs on Kel-Tec’s website : http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/downloads/SHOT2010_preview_keltec_PMR-30.pdf [PDF Link]


  1. I assume that the 5.8mm load mentioned above it a hot load. I also assume that Kel-Tec will be publishing the results of the best performing ammunition they could find 

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Steve Johnson

Founder and Dictator-In-Chief of TFB. A passionate gun owner, a shooting enthusiast and totally tacti-uncool. Favorite first date location: any gun range. Steve can be contacted here.


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  • http://gunnuts.net Caleb

    One of the best rounds for .22 magnum from a pistol is the CCI TNT 30 grain load. It uses a faster burning powder and generally acts like a “quality” pistol bullet when fired from a pistol.

  • http://www.shilohtv.com Steve Doran Trail Boss

    The .22 mag is an excellent cartridge, one of my favorite rifles is a modified bolt action marlin that i had the barrel taken down to 16 1/2 inches. It is not only a tack driver, but will take down just about anything. If i can not kill it on the first shot I will certainly ruin its day.

    I hope the new pistol works well I have never had any luck with 22 mag auto-loaders, they were not reliable and had feeding problems. If it works reliably out of the box it will be one heck on a gun. Time will tell.

  • Freiheit

    So does that mean then that someone could make a .22WMR ‘pistol’ load that burns faster?

    It seems like a fairly solvable problem.

  • http://jovianthunderbolt.blogspot.com j t bolt

    So if it’s not comparable to .22 WMR, what is it comparable to? .22 Hornet?

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

      JTBolt. .22 Hornet is in another class. It sits between .22 Mag and .223 in the rifle class. It is very powerful (compared to a pistol cartridge).

  • John

    My credit card is burning a hole waiting for a version in 5.7x28mm!

  • dogon1013

    I think the confusions stems from comparing 5.7 out of a pistol to .22magnum out of a rifle….These are ballistically similar.

    most velocity specs you find online for .22magnum are from a rifle length barrel, but they may not mention it when they post the specs.

    BTW here is a great write up comparing 5.7 and .22 magnum. http://www.chuckhawks.com/5-7x28_cop_killer.htm

  • Jason

    I’d speculate the difference in velocity has less to do with the 22 WRM being “optimized” for a rifle length barrel than the fact that the 5.7 is a centerfire case with approximately twice the pressure as the 22.

  • Matt Groom

    I think a more important concern for most shooters is “Performance per Penny”. 40 Grain .22 WMR is running about $190 for 1000 rounds on certain websites, whereas 5.7×28 is running $450 per 1000. That’s 19 Cents per round of WMR vs. 45 cents per round of 5.7. That’s a 42% increase in cost per round.

    5.7 is a high pressure round, and that means better performance, but it also means more muzzle blast. In testing I have done, I have yet to find a 5.7 round that performs to the level of the numbers you have posted Steve. I think the round may be capable of this (in a Contender or Bolt Action), but nobody is pushing it to that level as of yet. For example, the SS197 which I chrono’d extensively produced a mere 1735 FPS average, which is 268 Ft/Lbs. Average with the 40 grain bullet. Now that’s a gain of about 51% over the Super-X 40 grain load out of the Kel-Tec. That load produces 1230 FPS and 138 Ft/Lbs in the PMR-30. Three times the energy it is NOT. 5.7×28 is optimized for performance out of 10″ SMG barrels, not pistol barrels.

    Many shooters who already own a .22 magnum rifle will be able to use the same ammo in their PMR-30. Five Seven Pistol owners will be able to use that ammo in their AR-57 or their PS-90s if they have that kind of scratch, but most of us can’t afford the pistol, much less the rifle. You could buy the Kel-Tec, 1000 rounds of ammo, and a bolt action .22 Magnum rifle for the cost of the FN Five Seven pistol alone. Maybe that’s why Kel-Tec didn’t simply make a 5.7×28 pistol.

    Considering the price difference between the two pistols and the difference in cost of the two ammo types, the marginal gains of the 5.7 cartridge do not in my mind justify the enormous price disparities.

  • http://www.red-alerts.com Rob Taylor

    Even with the lower energy I still covet this. It’ll be cheaper to purchase and feed and if it’s as rugged as Kel-Tec makes them it might be the kind of semi-auto that ends up kicking around the boonies with me or slipped into the glove box.

    I’ve always though the .22 mag was a nice all purpose round. A little hard on tree rats if you’re a meat hunter bvut the trade of is being able to defend yourself from the occasional fox or feral dog.

  • jdun1911

    DocGKR made that assertion and he does have a Phd, IIRC. Spend his entire career in ballistic testing. He pointed out that the 5.7 has the same “wounding potential at best” to .22lr or .22 mag.

    http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913

  • Lance

    Yeah both rounds still over penetrate and are lousy for real personal defence rounds. 9mm .40 S&W and .45 ACP are 99.99% better rounds to use.

  • dg

    Why not make a 30rd 22lr? Id buy one of those faster that a 22mag version. 22lr also is cheaper to shoot, smaller cartridge, and wider selection of ammo. Although I do have to admit if reviews on this are any good ill have to pick one up. A 30rd handgun just pushes all my “buy this gun” buttons.

  • Whatever

    If the 22 WMR achieves about 1200 fps out of a 4-5 inch barrel, then what’s the advantage of a pistol chambered in 22 WMR over one chambered in 22 Long Rifle?

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

      Whatever, good point, but I do not know the ballistics of a .22 out of a 4″ barrel. 40 grain .22LR tend to be the standard velocity (subsonic).

  • Michael

    Check the velocity figures for the 5.7×28 out of a Five-Seven pistol.

    A 28gr. projectile at 2040 fps. = 258.9 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy.

    A 40gr. projectile at 1749 fps. = 271.8 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy.

  • http://www.msn.com Ermac

    The 5.7x28mm hit less then a 9mm. Why would you want that? You have to draw the line when a caliber is too small.

  • XxleoxX

    this gun from kel-tec seems pretty nice :) i just hope its still in existence when im actually old enough to buy one…about 5 years? i have a 5.7 (technically not mine) as for it hitting less than a 9mm,a small bullet traveling at over 700 m/s is sure to atleast make you flinch

  • Bandito762

    I think the real issue here is how ugly both of these pea shooters are…

  • El Duderino

    Wow. I missed the original blog post re: the PMR-30. There is nothing on the Kel-Tec site that I’ve seen, and I go there quite a bit as I own a SU-16CA and covet an RFB…

    I’ve always wanted an old Grendel P-30, but I have reservations about getting a handgun with known feeding issues and $100 magazines that no one is making anymore. I guess Kel-Tec read my mind. Now make this pistol and a R-31 style with a 16″ barrel and a folding stock…now yer talkin’! Preorder me for one of each.

    As for the ballistic differences…I echo that neither cartridge is optimized for standard pistol length barrels. But, there are a lot of rifles chambered for pistol rounds that do just fine and vice versa. The beauty of the American gun market is particular guns don’t have to be useful or totally efficient, they just have to have buyers. Taurus Judge/Thunder Five I’m talking to YOU!

  • El Duderino

    Oh jeez, to further my last point, I just saw the post for the WTS .50 BMG pistol. More evidence needed???

    I am going to found a company to design a derringer. .500 Nitro Express on the top barrel and a 10 gauge 3-1/2 shell on the bottom. It will be first gun ever made where the muzzle brake is heavier than the rest of the gun. Someone will buy it…

  • El Duderino

    Thanks Steve. Will start saving — and building up Honey Do credits.

  • http://www.predatorwild.com Heath

    Interesting. The 5mm pushes a 30 grain bullet at a reported 2300 fps. No idea if it has the same issues as the 22 Magnum with its being designed for a rifle and not the right powder for a handgun.

  • Komrad

    I like it. Functional, enough punch for plinking or small game, and enough ammo to take almost anything. If poachers can take deer with .22LR and Eskimos can take polar bear with a .22 hornet logic would hold that on could take elk with a .22 mag. What would make this gun really awesome would be a .17 HMR counterpart.

  • carter

    How does one get the 358 ft lb figure if both bullets are 40 grains and are being driven with 21 fps of each other?

  • matt

    To Matt Groom,

    There are quite a few people who have pushed 40gr .224 bullets in the 5.7x28mm round to 2000-2100fps. Quite a few people have been doing it for some time. Apparently your research isn’t that good. SS190, SS192, SS195LF (white box) and SS198 are all capable of over 2000 fps.

    |———P90———|———-PS90———|——FiveseveN—-|

    SS190 —–(2350 fps)————-(2600 fps)————-(2100 fps)—–
    SS191 —–(2350 fps)————-(2600 fps)————-(2100 fps)—–
    SS192 —–(2350 fps)————-(2600 fps)————-(2100 fps)—–
    SB193 —–(1000 fps)—————————————————-
    T194 ——(2350 fps)————–(2600 fps)————-(2100 fps)—–
    SS195 —–(2350 fps)————-(2600 fps)————-(2100 fps)—–
    NEW SS195-(2220.5)—————(1470.5)————–(1970.5)——-
    SS196 —–(1800 fps)————-(1950 fps)————-(1550 fps)—–
    SS197 —–(1950 fps)————-(2100 fps)————-(1675 fps)—–
    SS198 —–(2500 fps)———————————–(2200 fps)—-

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

      matt, can you please post a link with the source of that ballistic info.

      I am impressed with the P90 performance.

  • matt
    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

      matt, thanks.

  • Matt Groom

    Matt,

    I’m pretty sure we were talking about pistols, fella. Apparently your reading skills aren’t that good, because if you actually, uhh, READ the tables, or know anything about the cartridges that are listed, you will see that there are NO 40 grain bullets pushed to those velocities from a pistol. Also, they don’t sell those rounds to civilians, so why do you care how fast the can go?

    Also, I’ve done actual testing with a real chronograph and a real gun and real bullets, fanboy. So yes, my “research” of scanning the internet for information is apparently lacking due to my heavy reliance on real world data obtained through the scientific method.

    You will also note that the actual numbers I published are slightly higher from the Five Seven pistol than the numbers published by DML5. Energy=Mass x Velocity Squared. That means if the numbers posted for the 40 grain SS196 and SS197 do not meet much less exceed the numbers I got, that it still is not capable of producing “three times” the muzzle energy out of a pistol. Perhaps it isn’t my research skills that are challenged after all.

  • http://www.nitroexpress.com Mehul Kamdar

    As the 5.7 mm is a centerfire round, it can be loaded to much higher pressures than the 22 WMR which has to be fired via a priming compound in the rim. This is why a major revolution in the history of firearms came about when gunmakers switched from large bore rimfires (IIRC the biggest rimfire rounds were .577 cal before gunmakers stopped building guns for them) to centerfires.

    That said, the Kel Tec pistol does look interesting and it could be a fun pistol to own if someone has a rifle in the same caliber. As Heath has pointed out, the 5mm rimfire was much more powerful – since Aguila makes 5mm RF ammunition again and sells it in the USA, maybe Keltec could look at chambering their pistol for it? I keep hearing rumors on some forums about some gunmaker or the other planning to offer the 5mm rimfire but have seen nothing to suggest that there is anything imminent. Sad!

  • matt

    Matt Groom,

    I was merely posting factory ammunition tables to show velocities of all factory 5.7 ammo. SS192/195 is available to civilians btw. SS198 can be had also, but isn’t worth the cost, and even for $700 you can get your hands on SS190. The table was in response to your statement:

    ” I have yet to find a 5.7 round that performs to the level of the numbers you have posted Steve I think the round may be capable of this (in a Contender or Bolt Action), but nobody is pushing it to that level as of yet.” You make no mention of the SS197SR round before you stated that, so I took it as you meant that there are no 5.7 loadings that are over 2000 fps in the FSN. Which as the table shows there are. I agree that the three times is off. It’s two times.

    and You didn’t read my reply. I said “There are quite a few people who have pushed 40gr .224 bullets in the 5.7×28mm round to 2000-2100fps. Quite a few people have been doing it for some time.”

    Quite a few people (I didn’t says FNH themselves) have pushed 40gr 5.7 loadings to over 2000fps. EA’s Protector Round (40gr) has published 2080 fps again from the FSN. they also achieve 1900 fps from a 45gr loading also. They have achieved 2500-2600fps from their 28gr loading. GunBlast did an article on the FSN. You can find his velocity figures of all civilian ownable ammo here:
    http://www.gunblast.com/FN-FiveseveN.htm

    Just because I don’t have the time and money to spend on a chrono, doesn’t mean I should be called a fan-boy because I simply have interjected Facts into the discussion.

    I’m waiting to see what kind of loads are developed for this pistol. It’s obvious that current .22WMR rounds are meant for long barrel rifles.

  • Matt Groom

    Matt,

    So, what you’re saying is, you decided to attack my statement and my research abilities before you even finished reading my entire comment?

    “Quite a few people have been doing it for some time.” First of all, the expression ‘quite a few’ indicates several people or at least more than one. You only cite one company, and while it is little defense, I myself have never heard of them before this blog entry.

    Second, I clearly state that I did not think those numbers were impossible, simply that I had not found ammo that produced those numbers from factory ammo and no, boutique operations do not count as ‘factories’. I hope Elite Ammunition does very well, but at $44.95 per 50 round box, I do not perceive of any possibility that I will ever be buying this ninety-cent-a-round brand myself. I mean, that’s double the price of the FN loadings made by Fiocchi.

    Third, none of the Elite Ammo is listed in the charts you linked to.

    Fourth, why is it the people who designed the pistol, the cartridge, and everything related to the metrics of the loadings in question, don’t push it to those levels even in their military loadings? Could it be that its not very safe?

    All of the pictures appear to have been removed, possibly as part of a settlement agreement, but here’s the link to at least one unfortunate victim of overpressure 5.7 ammo:

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=362563

    But on the internet, our words live forever!

    http://braingoodbye.com/with-guns-like-these-who-needs-enemies

  • matt

    Matt G,

    check the link to gun blast the chart is there.

    AMMUNITION BULLET WEIGHT VELOCITY ACCURACY
    Elite PenetraTOR 55 1464 3.375″
    Elite ProtecTOR 40 2009 3.000″
    Elite VarminTOR 36 2104 2.500″
    Elite Ultra RapTOR 28 2518 2.875″
    Elite IlluminaTOR 53.5 1470 3.125″
    FNH SS195 LF 27.5 2040 3.250″
    FNH SS197 SR 40 1749 1.625″

    You’ll note Jeff was able to achieve over 2000fps with SS195LF. Factory ammo is more than capable of 2000+ FPS, as original chart showed. EA has been around for at least 3yrs to my knowledge. I only used thier loadings as one of the “few” people who have been able to pump out good loads for this caliber. I make no claims about their pricing. They’re the only ones doing it on a larger scale, so they easily get what they do for their products.

    reloading information is abundant on the FSN forum. I will dig up some loadings of 1800-2000+ fps in .40gr. for comparison, I’ve limited it to 40gr as both loadings exist in each caliber.

    That blown up IOM was a result of a double charged round (reloaded). FNH duplicated the failure, and replaced the guy’s gun with a new one.

  • matt

    “Out of the FsN, the most you can expect out of a quality 45gr bullet is about 2000fps (…and thats pushing things). For a 40gr bullet you can get in the vicinity of 2080fps with Blue Dot, Acc#7, or HS-7″ One reloader.

    Another was just shy of 2000fps using a .40gr

    Powder: Blue Dot, 6.9 gr
    Bullet: Hornday V-Max, 40 gr
    Case: 1x SS197SR
    Case Length: 1.135″
    Overall Length: 1.585″
    Primer: CCI 400
    No Crimp, No Glue

    AVG from 15 feet 1965 FPS.

    Another:

    Blue Dot

    45gr Barnes TSX. Trim: 1.135″ OAL: 1.575″ Primer: CCI 400
    Avg 1950FPS

    And Another:

    40gr Combined Technology Ballistic Silvertip Trim: 1.135″ OAL: 1.580″ Virgin SS197 brass/primer

    8.5gr: 1991fps
    8.6gr: 2007fps
    8.7gr: 2015fps
    8.8gr: 2000fps

    There are more too, but it’s quite obvious ~2000fps loadings can be accomplished with commercially available components. Like I said I stuck with the .40-45gr loadings to stay close to the .22WMR loadings being discussed.

    Like I said I agree that the figure given for SS197SR in the main blog is from that of a PS90 or P90, and not from a FSN, resulting in the correct statement to be two times, not three times.

    I’d like to see if anyone develops better loadings for the .22WMR to see how close they can get to 5.7 numbers. As shown in the original chart, Factory 5.7 loads in the FSN are capable of over 2000fps.

  • jdun1911

    Matt G,

    I remember that. I collect KB! pictures and for some reason I didn’t get the chance to save them.

    IIRC he did some videos that shows the fiveseven can go out of battery easily. I think that videos were also removed.

  • Matt Groom

    Matt,

    Stop cherry picking the data you cite in order to find your velocity based argument. If it doesn’t have a 40 grain bullet, isn’t fired from a pistol, and doesn’t come from factory ammo, it is irrelevant to this argument and my initial statements.

    I have already conceded that the Elite Ammo can achieve these numbers possibly at the price of safety. I also said in my original post that I thought those numbers were perfectly possible, just that it wasn’t done in factory ammo yet. You have yet to disprove this statement. You can do it with reloads? Good for you. I never said you couldn’t. I never said it was impossible. I said factory loads don’t achieve that kind of energy out of pistols. And they don’t. SS195 is a 27 grain bullet. It is irrelevant as data, as it does not achieve the energy figures I originally questioned. This is not Global Warming and you can’t just pick whatever figures you want to suit your argument.

  • matt

    MG,

    your later reply was questioning whether or not my statement about people pushing 40gr bullets to ~2000fps, which is why I posted those loading stats. I never stated anywhere factory SS197SR was capable of 2000fps in the pistol. Read my previous statement, that I agreed that the original blog #s are fudged and they are form the P90, not the pistol.

    How have you conceded that about EA? That blown up IOM you posted pictures of, was of that gentlemans own reloads, not someone else’s and not elite ammunition. I guess our discussions went different ways as I took your original statement of “numbers” to refer to velocity only. It’s already well stated that the .22WMR currently falls short in pistol form compared to any factory, civilian attainable 5.7 ammo. Like I said it will be interesting to see if a manufacturer is able to push .22WMR faster out of the pistol. Kind of like the Person Defense .410 pistol ammo they have for the judge.

  • Whit

    Too many numbers for me. I just want one to add to the collection. I have 3 KT’s and all are fun as is the Judge and Saiga 12.

  • http://www.eliteammuntion.com JWolf

    EA ammo is factory ammo. We manufacture 5.7×28 and beside FN contract makers we are the only ones.

    Our loads are not over pressure and that FB of a FsN pistol was done by the owner himself owns hand load.

    FsN Pistol
    S4 UltraRapTOR 2,600fps 28gr
    ProtecTOR Personal Defense 2,092fps 40gr V-max
    PenetraTOR Tac-Op 1,800 fps 55gr FMJBT Mil Spec
    IlluminaTOR Tracer 1,800 fps 55gr Mil Spec tracer
    QuieTOR Subsonic 912 fps 55gr FMJBT
    VarminaTOR 2,202 fps 36gr Barnes V.G.
    X-TerminaTOR 1,975 fps 45gr Barnes TSX
    SinTOR 1,850 fps 36gr SinterFire bullet

    Our numbers have been confirmed by many third party testers including the Feb edition of Combat Handguns who did an article on the FsN and EA ammunition.

    You can find out more factual information at http://www.fivesevenforum.com

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

      JWolf, thanks for the comment.

  • http://www.eliteammuntion.com JWolf

    Oh and yes I think that Kel-Tec is cool and YES I will buy one!

  • Sean

    Feh. If I a want heavy and slow, “knock ‘em down with a flying ashtray” caliber I reach for my 1911.

    If I want to push a little 85 grain pill at 1600 feet per second, I reach for my Polish Tokarev. Both the pistol and surplus ammo are incredibly well made and incredibly affordable. Nearly the energy of a 45, too. There are hollowpoints made by numerous companies in 7.62×25 that do damage that has to be seen to be believed.

    Re-inventing the wheel, is all that silly, overpriced 5.7×28 Blueshirt Bullet is, really.

  • matt

    I see from gel tests they penetrate on average the same amount as standard 9mm, .40, .45ACP.

    Here’s wolf JHP

    http://www.brassfetcher.com/Wolf%2085gr%20Copper%20JHP.html

    The FMJ on the other hand penetrates quite well, which ideally is too much for self defense purposes.
    http://www.brassfetcher.com/762x25mm.html

    I’d be interested to see if non steel core FMJ 7.62×25 could penetrate body armor.

  • Anon

    So the Fiven-seveN achieves more energy then the .22 Magnum out of a Rifle is what you should be saying. That puts it in better perspective.

    And please do include Elite Ammunition in the comparison otherwise that’s like saying the 10mm can do no better then the .40 S&W because that was the only main manufacturer loading for a long time despite it’s real capability. Boutique or not, if it can safely reach high levels those should be what are measured.

  • ron

    What may be the source of confusion is that the ballistics of the 5.7 PISTOL are actually VERY close to the ballistics of a 22 Magnum Rimfire out of a RIFLE.

    Similarly, confusion exists betwen 5.7 carbine ballistics and 5.7 pistol ballistics, causing some people to claim that velocities out of the pistol are higher than they really are, when in fact they are erroniously substituting 5.7 carbine ballistics for 5.7 pistiol ballistics.

    Generally, 22 magnum ballistics out of a PISTOL will be the equivelent of 22 Long rifle ballistics out of a Rifle.

    Most all cartridges gain 25 to 45 fps of velocity for every inch of barrel added an dlose that amount for every inch of barrel length subtracted, depending on the expansion ratio of the individua cartridge which is the relationship between bore size and case capacity.

  • JWolf

    That would be why I included the ballistic tables. You also have to take into account the type of projectiles used and their performance over 22mag projectiles.

    The 28gr Aluminum cored bullet is actually longer then a 62gr FMJ .223 bullet.
    Giving it a very good BC and startling performance on target.

  • ron

    To JWolf: You’re absolutely right that the larger capacity center fire cartridge has an advantage when it comes to projectiles, but it’s a moot point since in comparing the two pistols, the 5.7 FN is developing approximate 22 magnum rimfire rifle velocities out of a pistol while the kel-tec 30 is producing 22 LR RIFLE ballistics out of pistol and that’s not even comparable.

    That being said, I wouldn’t want to be shot 30 times with a 22 LR rifle, and in that regard the new keltec will prove to be a formidable weapon as long as they work out all the technical bugs and end up with something that absolutely without exception goes bang! every time the trigger is squeezed, just like the kel-tec 32 that I’ve owned and have carried daily for the past six years always does. Ditto for their 9mm carbines, total reliability.

    Keltec has also come out recently with a bullpup, forward ejecting .308 rifle that will sell for about $1200 bucks. They are fast becoming a serious cutting edge manufacturer of top quality firearms.

  • Ariel

    So, “current” .22 mag loads don’t perform like the 5.7 out of a pistol. But, if .22 mag pistols take off, is there any reason .22 mag pistol loads could not be developed that would approximate the 5.7. I don’t see why not.

  • JWolf

    Case can’t handle the pressure and neither could the gun. Rim fire primer would give you problems also. That’s why it was dropped many years ago in favor of modern primers.

  • Dave in Dallas

    I”m guessing here, but the .22 mag is a rifle cartridge and if they made it with faster burning powder it would probably be too much of a peak pressure cartridge for a pistol. Or at least for a pistol without a gigantic chamber/barrel forging to hold in the pressure.

    Thus being too heavy and unpleasant, and prompting the question – why not just get a 9mm?

    But because it’s a rifle cartridge, the longer the barrel, the faster the bullet. And since a .22 LR is not a slow burner, it sort of ‘catches up’ to the .22 mag in a short barrel situation. THe mag’s powder charge explodes outside the barrel, making a big boom and a nice flame blast but not contributing to the speed of the bullet. THe .22LR is mostly finished burning when the bullet comes out of the barrel, so less flame and bang but more efficient use of its powder.

    the magnum is faster, but not twice as fast, from a pistol barrel. Probably 1/4 faster or less.

    THat said, I”m buying this new Keltec as soon as I can. LOVE the .22 mag, even from a pistol. Love the boom, love the flames. Supersonic. a 30 grain probably will get better than 1400 fps at the muzzle from this pistol, better than a revolver because there’s no cylinder gap to weaken the push.

  • Kalani

    The five-seven has bullets that are pushed to the 2300fps or higher, made my speciality remanufaturers. Such as Elite Ammo and Desert ammo supply. In fact Desert ammo loaded me some custom 50 grain flat nose bullet going 1950 ft.

  • JWolf

    Desert ammo supply, I would love to see that ammo chronographed since they are using Dillon 550 shell plates bought from us and 1x brass.

    Is that 1950 from a pistol or PS90?

    • Juan Pietri

      Hi, JWolf. I worked with a John Wolf when I was a Territory Sales Mgr. for DSM; are you he?

  • Rod Donovan

    Whoa! I just saw the new PMR 30 pistol from Kel-Tec. I can at least stop crying now that I will be able to buy a replacement of my lost Grendel P-30. I loved that gun. I hope I can still find one somewhere. It did have a propensity to move the safety from fire to safe during shooting. Other than that and “Oh me God! When will this thing run out of bullets? I wanna go home…….. The price is a little steep though, considering all the $350-400 guns going around with larger calibers. As for a 22LR, don’t pay attention to these cheap penny pinchers. 22 mag it is. Can’t wait..

    Master Rod

  • http://none Ron Medcalf

    The 22 mag and the 17HMR are rifle cartridges!
    With the short barrel and slow burning powder, we will not get the performance intrinsic to these cartridges.
    So, what should be done ?
    In my opinion from firing both from rifles and pistol. the ammo makers should make these 2 rounds with faster burning powder. Keep in mind these are Rim-fire cases and the reason we don’t see a lot of different calibers is the case of the rim-fire is too thin for the pressures.
    So, the manufacturers could make the barrels longer but how long are you going to make a pistol barrel before it doesn’t resemble a pistol at all. I don’t think that will happen. People like the looks of a 5″ auto pistol.
    Knowing the energy of 22LR ammo out of a pistol shows I can get significant fp/lbs energy . ex:
    22 Standard ammo 49gr bullet give 100f/p energy
    22 Stinger with a 32gr bullet gives 191f/p energy
    22 SSS with a 69gr bullet gives 120f/p energy

    I don’t need a pistol in 22 mag or 17HMR
    I want a pistol with a 30 magazine in 22lr !

    For me it’s a no brainer, 22LR are cheap compared the the others and extremely versatility.

    When Kel-Tec makes a hand gun with a 30 rnd magazine fitted for the 22LR, I WILL BUY IT ////

  • http://none Ron Medcalf

    On the previous statement I typed the weight wrong on the Aguila SSS 22LR.
    The bullet weighs 60gr, not 69 which was a misprint.

  • http://none Ron Medcalf

    And on the standard 22 LR ammo the weight
    should have been 40gr..
    \My right hand little finger is spastic today/ lol

  • Matt Groom

    @ Ron Medcalf

    It looks like the energies you cited would be for those rounds out of a rifle length barrel. I can guarantee you that you would NOT get 1640 FPS with a .32 grain Stinger out of any .22 with a 4.3″ barrel. Maybe closer to 1300 FPS with stingers, which would be about 120 FPE. That’s damn good performance, but it’s still less powerful than just about any .22 Mag load out of a pistol and it’s being optimistic. Also, CCI Stingers can easily cost as much as .22 Magnum.

    I find it puzzling that people would buy a pistol in an knowingly inferior caliber because it’s cheaper to shoot, but when you point out that reloading almost any centerfire pistol cartridge is cheaper still, they refuse to consider it. This may not be the case with you Ron, and it doesn’t apply to this Kel-Tec at all, but I see that alot.

  • sdfgdf dfgh

    What kills better?

  • Matt Groom

    A well aimed shot.

  • sdfgdf dfgh

    Which of two pistols kills better, I mean.

  • Brooklyn

    Killing and Stopping are two different things. Michael Lee Platt killed several FBI agents in 1986 AFTER being mortally wounded. If you’re LE (which I am not), I think you want Stopping power. Asking which one kills better is a suspicious inquiry.

  • rey

    You guys are forgetting one very important factor…..That the 5.8×27 yaws or tumbles when it hits, causing a much larger wound channel and causing the round to deliver full energy to the target. This can’t be overstated enough. Combine that with the fps differences and we clearly can see why these 2 are NOT comparable. The Five seveN is in a class of its own. It is expensive and it is expensive to shoot, which is why I sold it years ago.

  • Ron Medcalf

    In regard to my previous statments I need to add:
    The Kel-Tec I would NOT use as a self defence side arm !

    Tthat is what my 1911 series 70 in .45ACP is for.
    Also I have a S&W J frame .38 cal for backup.

    I am curently practicing “Point Shooting” with 2 matching S&W K-22′s. I shoot a lot. Last week I shot over 1200 LR rounds.
    When I go out to shoot my 22′s, I shoot 4-500 rounds per visit.

    The .22 mag has no place in my armory. It would fall into a catagory of mine as a fun gun for plinking and maybe pest control around my country house.

    A pistol in .22LR & a 30 round mag is something I would love to have. It’s purpose is NOT SELF DEFENCE.

    So I would like to see the P30 in .22LR>>>>

    Ron

  • http://www.predatorwild.com Heath

    I saw on the Kel Tec facebook page that they expect to ship the PMR-30 out at the end of June.

    Steve, I just tried to post this on the actual entry for the PMR-30 but don’t have the ability to add another comment … is that by design or is something goofed?

    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/23/kel-tec-pmr-30-pistol/

  • John

    I WANT ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOW!!!!!!

  • Nunyabiz

    My AMT AutomagII shots 22mag at about 1680fps but it has a 6″ barrel which is exactly what this PMR30 needs.
    The PMR30 with 6″ barrel and with a detachable butt stock would make a nice little pistol/carbine combo.
    But 22mag needs at least a 6″ barrel.

    Soon as this pistol becomes available with a 6″ barrel I will buy it.

  • cfgarner

    All I want to know is where I can obtain one or two of them. I have been reading about the thing for a long time. I would like to see what it will do. I have an semi auto pistol that fires the 22 mag but I have never enjoyed shooting it. I like the 22 mag in a rifle and hope it will be good in a pistol.

  • Nunyabiz

    Probably your best bet might be a gun show or two.
    I bet these are sold faster than they can make them.
    I emailed the company a few months ago and they said they were bringing out a version with a longer barrel at some point.
    I would wait for that, 4.3″ is too short a barrel for a 22mag.
    Extra 2″ makes a nice difference.

  • Wes

    If I recall the data correctly the fiveseven pistol is equall to the m4 rifle at it’s intended effective ranges. 20yards fiveseven pistol compares to 300yards m4 rifle. End of debate.

    Physics and human anatomy are something most people lack education in. When the human flesh is hit with a projectile at such high velocity the flesh is forced to absorb such shock. But that’s hard for most people to grasp. Just like how water jets can be used to cut steel.

  • WayneLBurnham

    I have been reading and rarely commenting on this blog for a while – what an excellent source of durable comment on especially new developments!

    While looking to replace the CY-lasered KelTec PF9 I had to sell a few months back, I found out about the PMR30 and became intrigued – maybe my dozen+ pocket pistol inventory (including my daily CT lasered P3AT) does not need to be refreshed immediately and maybe I need something different to make up for the coming (finally!) acquisition of a repeater .50BMG…

    So – I am sold on the PMR30 if I can find one – I will even add a .22WMR NAA minirevolver with a laser to compliment it if I can find one for cheap.

    To me, from all I have been reading in the past couple of hours, the 5.7 is clearly *somewhat* a superior round. I have only ever shot full auto P90 s and never the Five-Seven, but I have watched the prices over the years and remain aloof.

    BTW: To Wes in the last posted comment: No, sorry guy, but you have seen wrong data. The .223 out of an M4 still exceeds 2300fps with a 63 grain bullet (I think still north of 1k ftlbs) – and is in a whole other class than the 5.7×28. The neat thing about the 5.7 is its efficiency in rounds per weight and volume (especially length) of the rounds for feeding in a particular magazine of a smaller arm.

    The .223, even in a kitty-kat (7.5-10.5 in bbl), is completely superior in every regard to the 5.7. Miscomparing advertising BS utilizing unusual optimized illegal-bullets-for-less-than-TSAmolester-commoners like us in bizarre tests designed to meet some new foreign military rigged gubmnt bid conditions to win a contract is way past the apples to oranges stage and more like the grapes to scrap iron area.

    The 5.7 is a neat and intriguing round, but nowhere near a .223 or even the ancient .22 hornet, except in specific loadings.

    Similarly it seems to me the .22WMR is yet another half level down in power – but, like the 5.7 to .223 comparison, available in even MORE compact mag configs – 30 rounds of weak 9mm/strong 9mm Mak energy very flat shooting uber cheap .22WMR is a significant reason to consider including one.

    Like all the .410 revolvers, from the old Thunder 5 to the new Taurii (even in 3 in), the big difference in short pistol vs. carbine or rifle bbl length does make a strong argument for at least a 6 in bbl, if not 8.

    I really do not get the whole thing about short bbls for concealment. Slim, light and SHORT HEIGHT matter more than a short barrel length as the barrel is usually down along the leg. (I played with carrying my suppressed Glock M20 for years – the full-sized mag well and thickness of the pistol was the issue – and I live in Texas where you wear shorts in the early spring through late fall.)

    Again, thanks to all for the discussion and input – I think I will end up with one of these little critters fairly soon.

  • Nunyabiz

    Fact remains that a .22Mag in such a compact pistol with 30 rounds in it is going to stop any body, in fact a whole lot of somebody’s just as fast as anything else.
    Main thing is accuracy and the ability to carry 30+ rounds in a small package.
    The PMR30 is good for that and one heck of lot cheaper.

    All it needs is a 2″ longer barrel, like Wayne said barrel length is not the problem with concealment but in 22 magnum it IS the problem when you get something like 350FPS more from just that 2 extra inches.
    The difference in FPE from a 40gr going 1300 up to 1650 is over 90FPE and flatter shooting. I think 150FPE up to 241FPE is well worth the extra 2″ so you can take advantage of this nice round.

  • rey

    Wayne…..You have to remember that the 5.7 yaws when it hits creating a larger wound channel and depositing full energy within target. Combine that with the energy of the round and it is not just superior, but a far superior round. It is terribly expensive because only FN makes the round (it’s been a while since I looked into it cause I sold my five seven years ago). Wolf was going to manufacture it, but never did. Remember also that the recoil on the five seven is almost 22ish (not quite of course), which allows for faster target acquisition and the round is small enough that the five seven magazine holds 20 rounds. The yawing factor is not to be underestimated either, Wayne. It can create far more deadly wounds that any 22 anything period. It moves around and is more likely to take a turn that hits an organ or other sensitive area after impact. Also a larger wound channel. Hope this helps.

  • john harlan

    Apples to oranges don’t always mean much. A nice, light, inexpensive, well made American pistol that uses easily obtained inexpensive ammo, with a 30 round magazine is a winner. I would certainly back off before I risked being shot by a .22 WMR. I have seen the videos, and the shooters squeezed off a hail of rounds in a very short time, holding on target very well because of the recoil characteristics, and I would choose this weapon over all the others.

  • http://1Lord.org John Mark Harris

    But with the Kel-Tec you get 30 .22 MAG.

    30

    • http://www.doba.com Ataraxia

      If you are such a crappy shot that you need 30 rounds, please turn the gun on yourself.

      • Joe

        Please keep your mouth shut.

      • But a Bing but a boom

        Try to understand the context. The topic has to do with small bullets. If it was a 44 magnum, one hit is enough. When using a .22, more hits might be needed to stop the threat.

    • twister

      actually, you have 31 with one in the chamber.

  • JOHN HARLAN

    I really don’t want to kill anyone, but I also am determined not to be a victim. I feel confident I could defend myself with 22 LR, WMR even better! Perpetrators really aren’t interested in messing with anyone who will be shooting back at them, particularly 30 rounds in 10 seconds! A PMR 30 would give me all the confidence I need. My vision is to turn perpetrators into victims, but if they are dead, what fun is that?!

    • Jon

      If you are dead or disfigured because you could not stop the perpetrator fast enough, what fun is that?

  • samoblack

    Guys, numbers and measurements are nice, but real life is kind a different. To compare the 5.7mm to 9mm its very similar as compare 7.62×39 to .223 round. Which one is better? Well it highly depends on situation. The 5.7 round fired form a pistol has bit more then half the energy of a 9mm, but. There is still a big BUT, if you make tests with gelatin or meat, you will find out (since its actually a shrinked down .223) it will rotate in flesh causing bigger wounds then 9mm, also if you dont directly hit vital organs or bones, it will much likely cause hydrophobic shock easier then 9mm (due to higher impact velocity). There is also one more fact saying that the 5.7 round might be better, its has very flat trajectory so you will hit targets in 100yards, where 9mm is suitable in sub 50m firefights. Other plus is that about same size 9mm pistol will carry about 17 rounds but 5.7 will have 20 rounds. The recoil of 5.7 pistols is much lower then with 9mm giving you higher accuracy by following shots. Then again, try to stop a car driver ramming you with 9mm, yo will do it with 5.7 but not with 9mm. Numbers are nice, but the real life use is different. For ranges around 20-30m Id say 9mm is better (or lets say safer for bystanders). As I said to compare 9mm vs 5.7 its like comparing .223 and 7.62×39. Of course Im bit off topic, but I dont have much knowledge about .22 of any flavor.

    • 223rem

      Samoblack,

      I am not arguing your point with respect to the 5.7 vs the anything. I carry a 1911 in .45acp. These little calibers will hurt you a lot if you are hit by one, but they simply are not good “up and close” defensive rounds.

      My complaint is that you don’t understand the difference between “then” and “than”!!! Please continue your discourse, but understand that if you wish to compare two or more things use “than”. Please search on “then vs than”. It is very simple

    • http://www.doba.com Ataraxia

      Why would you offer an opinion in a debate that has nothing to do with the rounds discussed? The 9mm aside, the opinion centered on the .22 Mag. Through your own volition, you concede you have no experience. Why offer thoughts not pertaining to the discussion?

  • http://www.predatorwild.com Heath

    Where is the data proving the 5.7 “tumbles” on impact and causes more damage? Paint me a skeptic but I don’t buy a jacketed bullet would hold together to tumble. It appears to be another Internet myth perpetrated by the 5.7 fans.

    If someone can provide the emperical data to show me I’m wrong I’ll admit to being wrong.

    • XPO117

      I know this article is from over 4 years ago, but just thought I’d fill you in. I tested 192 and 195 (jhp) on halfway set gel inside a cardboard box at around 10 yards, through a USG. The jackets opened up reliably through 100 rounds of testing. But they opened up more to one side, and looked like the front of a ski. The bullet held together but I’ve seen pics where it fragmented.

      Yes, they open up even in softer gel, and yes they yaw. And no, it’s not a myth. I didn’t save the rounds, but 192 or 195 is not going through a person, it most likely will tumble horrifically.

      You are wrong.

  • charles222

    Really a bit baffled why any civilian would have a perceived need for 5.7 NATO as a defensive cartridge…it was designed to give rear-area troops a fighting chance against Russian commandos with body armor, and was specifically designed to penetrate armor, much like M855 is. It’s not supposed to be used on soft targets; the five sweaters or whatever your home invader is wearing to disguise his appearance are not 5.7′s optimized home. Unless you’re James Bond or something it’s just not a terribly good idea when there’s plenty of soft-target-oriented rounds on the market.

    • dale

      I don’t think you understand the safety of the Five-seveN for home defence. A bullet from the 5 will stop in a soft target, such as a guy wearing 5 sweaters. If it misses the target, it will stop in the wall. A .357 on the other hand will go thru the target and the wall and kill the next door neighbor. A hit on a soft target with 5 will have enough energy to knock him (or her) down. That is why I chose it for personal protection… Safety for everyone but the perp.

      • http://www.huntertradertrapper.com Rob taylor

        Why would the 5.7 be safer firing at drywall or wood than at body armor? No matter how tiny the bullet anything at over 2k fps will rip through the walls of my house. Hell, #2 will go through some of the walls of houses I’ve been in. Are 5.7 bullets specially designed or something?

    • Jason

      So does this mean charles likes the 22mag or the 5.7?

    • evlgreg

      While it may be true that the gun was designed to pierce body armor, the ammo manufacturers have made the armor piercing type ammo completely unavailable for civilian purchase. You can’t get it anywhere, even on auction sites. It might fall under the US definition of pistol caliber armor piercing rounds which are not legal for civilians. And if you are using it to defend the 2nd amendment, chances are the people coming for you WILL be wearing body armor too.
      The reason it’s safer than a 357 magnum indoors is that the fragmentation occurs on impact with drywall or wood. The bullet may enter the next room, but it will likely be in several pieces that lose energy more rapidly than a much larger chunk of lead. This is one of the reasons many police departments abandoned the 9mm carbine in favor of the 223 carbine. If you like up 5 or 6 test walls of drywall and fire into them, the 223 is less likely to penetrate them all than the 9mm or the 357 with a bullet 3 times heavier.

    • kenny

      well you never know crimanals are getting more high tec theas days may have a vest on or some kind of armor you never know!

    • BeGe1

      Put controlled expansion on a round to make it go 12″-14″ in flesh and any round with enough energy becomes great for soft targets. 20 round mags, soft recoil, and a finely made weapon with effecting rounds is not a bad choice. Cost is the only real thing stopping it from being more popular.

  • Lloyd

    I have been on a waiting list for the PMR-30 for over a year and someone brought my attention to the FN FiveSeven lately. Cost isn’t an issue and the FN seems to have a lot of good qualities. The following article http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/03/handgun_reviews_fnusg_021207/ seems to indicate that the FN can be pretty effective because of its rapid yaw cycle. I am a novice but the author says, “It’s obvious that the rounds yaw quickly as two rounds penetrated approximately six inches and then turned 90 degrees and exited the side of the water container.” Sounds to me like it wouldn’t be a good thing to be hit by one of these 5.7x28mn bullets. The killer in the Ft. Hood shooting two years ago used an FN FiveSeven and, unfortunatley, it proved to be quite effective.

    • frank

      I have a handgun in every common caliber. The PMR30 is the most fun to shoot gun that I own. I wish ammo was cheaper but it is still cheaper than centerfire unless you hand load. I do handload but it is nice to not have to search for brass on the ground. I havent tested the speed of the 22mag out of this gun but I will say this. When shooting double phone books shrink wrapped together the 22 mag out performs any 22lr round from either my 10-22 or Marlin 39A. It easily passed through 4 inches of phone book and leaves a nice big hole on exit. Rarely does the 22lr exit the same. Even 125grain 38special from a j frame does not exit.
      Would I carry the PMR for self defense? Not purely for self defense. I much prefer the Glock 19 or even my S&W scandium 357 for that reason. For camping, walking in the woods, fun shooting the PMR is perfect. If I happen to run into bad guys in the woods, 30 rounds of 22 mag makes a lot of noise and shoots flat and accurate. I think anyone who is left around after one magazine of these will be either stupid or crazy. This gun is about as good as it gets for $350.

  • MARTY

    GOT ONE OF EACH AND LOVE BOTH. THE 22 MAG IS A BLAST TO SHOOT AND I THINK ENOUGH TO KEEP SOMEONE OFF YOUR ASS.

  • paul

    Have any of you ever shot a .22 magnum hornady critical defense round through a pistol? You would be impressed. You keep talking about calibers, and the type rounds you use make all the difference. These ballistic tips are awesome, and are fast burning powder for short barrels.

  • Jon

    The pistol shoots 40 grains at 1600 fps not 2000fps p90 dumb ass. Relistic figures are around 250 pounds.

    • Jay

      Sorry but the 40gr bullets do come out of the FsN at over 2000 fps. It just depends on which load you pic.

      Also a fun little fact that is ignored. The SS197 40gr Blue tip is the most under powered factory round currently offered. In the last few years alone thousands, repeat thousands of Mexicans have been killed by the blue tip rounds. The FsN pistol is the preferred weapon of the drug cartels and the preferred killing weapon. Daily Mexican Nationals are killed by this lame round.

      • Mike

        Gunfights or Executions?

      • Jay

        Both and both have resulted in dead bodies stacking up.

  • Jason

    Not trying to be a jerk but I own a fn 5.7 and a pmr, if you try to compare the two on any level you are kidding yourself! You can take my pmr and I will take my 5.7 and we can stand 100yrds appart and take one shot and see who walks home after.

    • BeGe1

      Probably neither of you. Sounds like a stupid game, where you’ll both win a really stupid prize.

  • Stu Pidassle

    UMMM… Hello

    • Mike

      Hello Stu.

  • Stu Pidassle

    Sounds like none of you have ever had “targets” firing back at you.. chronograph or not! I would have taken a PMR30, “post empty mag” in a few situations I’ve been witness to.. Ballistics aside, one shot – one kill..

  • http://www.facebook.com/lawrence.dalton1 Lawrence Dalton

    Well size does count. I am a longtime CCW holder and feel naked without a carry piece, At different periods in my life and careers I have carried every common caliber of compact revolver and semi-auto in the marketplace. The PMR30 is a beautifully, well made piece for side holster or shoulder holster carry, but it is not a concealment handgun. I can carry a fullsize, tricked out 1911 and leave a less noticeable bulge under a light or heavy jacket.

    The PMR30 would be my first choice for camping, hiking or backpacking, in the center console of my truck (where I currently have a 1911) but not daily carry. For daily carry and self-defense I carry a Beretta Tomcat in .32 acp or Bobcat in .22 LR. That is all I need for the type altercations I have experienced where the threat is usually less than 10 feet away, and yes, i can put two .22 LR rounds in a 4 inch circle (eyes, nose, mouth) at ten feet in less than 2 seconds. The time it takes me to draw from a pocket holster and step to the side after firing the second round. I can do the same with the .32 but recoil on the second round usually pushes the circle to 6 inches.

    The accuracy and comfort factor on the PMR30 come from the size and weight of the pistol. A .22 magnum in anything smaller and recoil becomes a factor to be reckoned with.

  • Sam Suggs

    maybe specilized pistol.22 wmr will come out

  • Cal

    All I can say is I want one. I cant imagine any thug breaking into my house not being terrified at the sound of 30 rounds of wmr’s heading his way. Sure enough it doesn’t have the stopping power of the center fires but it won’t feel like pin pricks either. And the noise alone will make him think he just entered the gates of hell.

    • GeoInSD

      One might think that but I have heard of various incidents where people didn’t even know they were shot until later. President Reagan and others around him didn’t know he was shot by Hinckley until he started coughing up blood.

  • EightBall343

    I do not wish to be shot by either, since you would probably have 10 to 15 rounds in your chest.

  • kenny

    can a 7mm bullet be shot out of a 22 pistol or rifle? theay look so close to the same just wondering.or are there tiped 22 ammo anywere?

  • XPO117

    I’ve fired enough rimfire to know I wouldn’t use any rimfire as a defense round unless there were no other options. Not because of size, but the likelihood of a misfire happens much more often than a centerfire, in my experience.