Myth Busting: .22 Magnum vs. 5.7×28mm
Inevitably, Kel-Tec's new .22 Magnum (WMR) chambered PMR-30 pistol will be compared to the FN Five-seveN pistol which fires the ballistically similar 5.7x28mm cartridge. If people are not saying it now, they will be soon saying that the .22 Magnum is the same as the 5.7x28mm. I used to say the same thing. It turns out that this is far from the truth.
Kel-Tec have stated [PDF Link] that a 40 grain .22 WMR round should reach a velocity of 1230 fps from the 4.3" barrel of their PMR-30 pistol. This works out to 134.40 ft/lbs of energy.
This is a significantly less than the FN Five-seveN USG (4.75" barrel), which can push a 40 grain bullet at 2009 fps. This works out to 358.57 ft/lbs! Nearly three times as powerful as the .22 WMR! 1
This does not mean that the .22 WMR is not a good cartridge. It simply means that the 5.7mm is optimized to be fired from a pistol, rather than the slower burning .22 WMR loads which are designed to be fired from a rifle.
UPDATE: Added correct link to specs on Kel-Tec's website : http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/downloads/SHOT2010_preview_keltec_PMR-30.pdf [PDF Link]
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I assume that the 5.8mm load mentioned above it a hot load. I also assume that Kel-Tec will be publishing the results of the best performing ammunition they could find ↩
One of the best rounds for .22 magnum from a pistol is the CCI TNT 30 grain load. It uses a faster burning powder and generally acts like a “quality” pistol bullet when fired from a pistol.
The .22 mag is an excellent cartridge, one of my favorite rifles is a modified bolt action marlin that i had the barrel taken down to 16 1/2 inches. It is not only a tack driver, but will take down just about anything. If i can not kill it on the first shot I will certainly ruin its day.
I hope the new pistol works well I have never had any luck with 22 mag auto-loaders, they were not reliable and had feeding problems. If it works reliably out of the box it will be one heck on a gun. Time will tell.
So does that mean then that someone could make a .22WMR ‘pistol’ load that burns faster?
It seems like a fairly solvable problem.
So if it’s not comparable to .22 WMR, what is it comparable to? .22 Hornet?
My credit card is burning a hole waiting for a version in 5.7×28mm!
I think the confusions stems from comparing 5.7 out of a pistol to .22magnum out of a rifle….These are ballistically similar.
most velocity specs you find online for .22magnum are from a rifle length barrel, but they may not mention it when they post the specs.
BTW here is a great write up comparing 5.7 and .22 magnum. http://www.chuckhawks.com/5-7×28_cop_killer.htm
I’d speculate the difference in velocity has less to do with the 22 WRM being “optimized” for a rifle length barrel than the fact that the 5.7 is a centerfire case with approximately twice the pressure as the 22.
I think a more important concern for most shooters is “Performance per Penny”. 40 Grain .22 WMR is running about $190 for 1000 rounds on certain websites, whereas 5.7×28 is running $450 per 1000. That’s 19 Cents per round of WMR vs. 45 cents per round of 5.7. That’s a 42% increase in cost per round.
5.7 is a high pressure round, and that means better performance, but it also means more muzzle blast. In testing I have done, I have yet to find a 5.7 round that performs to the level of the numbers you have posted Steve. I think the round may be capable of this (in a Contender or Bolt Action), but nobody is pushing it to that level as of yet. For example, the SS197 which I chrono’d extensively produced a mere 1735 FPS average, which is 268 Ft/Lbs. Average with the 40 grain bullet. Now that’s a gain of about 51% over the Super-X 40 grain load out of the Kel-Tec. That load produces 1230 FPS and 138 Ft/Lbs in the PMR-30. Three times the energy it is NOT. 5.7×28 is optimized for performance out of 10″ SMG barrels, not pistol barrels.
Many shooters who already own a .22 magnum rifle will be able to use the same ammo in their PMR-30. Five Seven Pistol owners will be able to use that ammo in their AR-57 or their PS-90s if they have that kind of scratch, but most of us can’t afford the pistol, much less the rifle. You could buy the Kel-Tec, 1000 rounds of ammo, and a bolt action .22 Magnum rifle for the cost of the FN Five Seven pistol alone. Maybe that’s why Kel-Tec didn’t simply make a 5.7×28 pistol.
Considering the price difference between the two pistols and the difference in cost of the two ammo types, the marginal gains of the 5.7 cartridge do not in my mind justify the enormous price disparities.
Even with the lower energy I still covet this. It’ll be cheaper to purchase and feed and if it’s as rugged as Kel-Tec makes them it might be the kind of semi-auto that ends up kicking around the boonies with me or slipped into the glove box.
I’ve always though the .22 mag was a nice all purpose round. A little hard on tree rats if you’re a meat hunter bvut the trade of is being able to defend yourself from the occasional fox or feral dog.
DocGKR made that assertion and he does have a Phd, IIRC. Spend his entire career in ballistic testing. He pointed out that the 5.7 has the same “wounding potential at best” to .22lr or .22 mag.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913
Yeah both rounds still over penetrate and are lousy for real personal defence rounds. 9mm .40 S&W and .45 ACP are 99.99% better rounds to use.
Why not make a 30rd 22lr? Id buy one of those faster that a 22mag version. 22lr also is cheaper to shoot, smaller cartridge, and wider selection of ammo. Although I do have to admit if reviews on this are any good ill have to pick one up. A 30rd handgun just pushes all my “buy this gun” buttons.
If the 22 WMR achieves about 1200 fps out of a 4-5 inch barrel, then what’s the advantage of a pistol chambered in 22 WMR over one chambered in 22 Long Rifle?
Check the velocity figures for the 5.7×28 out of a Five-Seven pistol.
A 28gr. projectile at 2040 fps. = 258.9 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy.
A 40gr. projectile at 1749 fps. = 271.8 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy.
JTBolt. .22 Hornet is in another class. It sits between .22 Mag and .223 in the rifle class. It is very powerful (compared to a pistol cartridge).
Whatever, good point, but I do not know the ballistics of a .22 out of a 4″ barrel. 40 grain .22LR tend to be the standard velocity (subsonic).
The 5.7×28mm hit less then a 9mm. Why would you want that? You have to draw the line when a caliber is too small.
this gun from kel-tec seems pretty nice
i just hope its still in existence when im actually old enough to buy one…about 5 years? i have a 5.7 (technically not mine) as for it hitting less than a 9mm,a small bullet traveling at over 700 m/s is sure to atleast make you flinch
I think the real issue here is how ugly both of these pea shooters are…
Wow. I missed the original blog post re: the PMR-30. There is nothing on the Kel-Tec site that I’ve seen, and I go there quite a bit as I own a SU-16CA and covet an RFB…
I’ve always wanted an old Grendel P-30, but I have reservations about getting a handgun with known feeding issues and $100 magazines that no one is making anymore. I guess Kel-Tec read my mind. Now make this pistol and a R-31 style with a 16″ barrel and a folding stock…now yer talkin’! Preorder me for one of each.
As for the ballistic differences…I echo that neither cartridge is optimized for standard pistol length barrels. But, there are a lot of rifles chambered for pistol rounds that do just fine and vice versa. The beauty of the American gun market is particular guns don’t have to be useful or totally efficient, they just have to have buyers. Taurus Judge/Thunder Five I’m talking to YOU!
UPDATE: Added correct link to specs on Kel-Tec’s website : http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/downloads/SHOT2010_preview_keltec_PMR-30.pdf
Oh jeez, to further my last point, I just saw the post for the WTS .50 BMG pistol. More evidence needed???
I am going to found a company to design a derringer. .500 Nitro Express on the top barrel and a 10 gauge 3-1/2 shell on the bottom. It will be first gun ever made where the muzzle brake is heavier than the rest of the gun. Someone will buy it…
Thanks Steve. Will start saving — and building up Honey Do credits.
Interesting. The 5mm pushes a 30 grain bullet at a reported 2300 fps. No idea if it has the same issues as the 22 Magnum with its being designed for a rifle and not the right powder for a handgun.
I like it. Functional, enough punch for plinking or small game, and enough ammo to take almost anything. If poachers can take deer with .22LR and Eskimos can take polar bear with a .22 hornet logic would hold that on could take elk with a .22 mag. What would make this gun really awesome would be a .17 HMR counterpart.
How does one get the 358 ft lb figure if both bullets are 40 grains and are being driven with 21 fps of each other?
To Matt Groom,
There are quite a few people who have pushed 40gr .224 bullets in the 5.7×28mm round to 2000-2100fps. Quite a few people have been doing it for some time. Apparently your research isn’t that good. SS190, SS192, SS195LF (white box) and SS198 are all capable of over 2000 fps.
|———P90———|———-PS90———|——FiveseveN—-|
SS190 —–(2350 fps)————-(2600 fps)————-(2100 fps)—–
SS191 —–(2350 fps)————-(2600 fps)————-(2100 fps)—–
SS192 —–(2350 fps)————-(2600 fps)————-(2100 fps)—–
SB193 —–(1000 fps)—————————————————-
T194 ——(2350 fps)————–(2600 fps)————-(2100 fps)—–
SS195 —–(2350 fps)————-(2600 fps)————-(2100 fps)—–
NEW SS195-(2220.5)—————(1470.5)————–(1970.5)——-
SS196 —–(1800 fps)————-(1950 fps)————-(1550 fps)—–
SS197 —–(1950 fps)————-(2100 fps)————-(1675 fps)—–
SS198 —–(2500 fps)———————————–(2200 fps)—-
matt, can you please post a link with the source of that ballistic info.
I am impressed with the P90 performance.
certainly.
http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=55
matt, thanks.
Matt,
I’m pretty sure we were talking about pistols, fella. Apparently your reading skills aren’t that good, because if you actually, uhh, READ the tables, or know anything about the cartridges that are listed, you will see that there are NO 40 grain bullets pushed to those velocities from a pistol. Also, they don’t sell those rounds to civilians, so why do you care how fast the can go?
Also, I’ve done actual testing with a real chronograph and a real gun and real bullets, fanboy. So yes, my “research” of scanning the internet for information is apparently lacking due to my heavy reliance on real world data obtained through the scientific method.
You will also note that the actual numbers I published are slightly higher from the Five Seven pistol than the numbers published by DML5. Energy=Mass x Velocity Squared. That means if the numbers posted for the 40 grain SS196 and SS197 do not meet much less exceed the numbers I got, that it still is not capable of producing “three times” the muzzle energy out of a pistol. Perhaps it isn’t my research skills that are challenged after all.
As the 5.7 mm is a centerfire round, it can be loaded to much higher pressures than the 22 WMR which has to be fired via a priming compound in the rim. This is why a major revolution in the history of firearms came about when gunmakers switched from large bore rimfires (IIRC the biggest rimfire rounds were .577 cal before gunmakers stopped building guns for them) to centerfires.
That said, the Kel Tec pistol does look interesting and it could be a fun pistol to own if someone has a rifle in the same caliber. As Heath has pointed out, the 5mm rimfire was much more powerful – since Aguila makes 5mm RF ammunition again and sells it in the USA, maybe Keltec could look at chambering their pistol for it? I keep hearing rumors on some forums about some gunmaker or the other planning to offer the 5mm rimfire but have seen nothing to suggest that there is anything imminent. Sad!
Matt Groom,
I was merely posting factory ammunition tables to show velocities of all factory 5.7 ammo. SS192/195 is available to civilians btw. SS198 can be had also, but isn’t worth the cost, and even for $700 you can get your hands on SS190. The table was in response to your statement:
” I have yet to find a 5.7 round that performs to the level of the numbers you have posted Steve I think the round may be capable of this (in a Contender or Bolt Action), but nobody is pushing it to that level as of yet.” You make no mention of the SS197SR round before you stated that, so I took it as you meant that there are no 5.7 loadings that are over 2000 fps in the FSN. Which as the table shows there are. I agree that the three times is off. It’s two times.
and You didn’t read my reply. I said “There are quite a few people who have pushed 40gr .224 bullets in the 5.7×28mm round to 2000-2100fps. Quite a few people have been doing it for some time.”
Quite a few people (I didn’t says FNH themselves) have pushed 40gr 5.7 loadings to over 2000fps. EA’s Protector Round (40gr) has published 2080 fps again from the FSN. they also achieve 1900 fps from a 45gr loading also. They have achieved 2500-2600fps from their 28gr loading. GunBlast did an article on the FSN. You can find his velocity figures of all civilian ownable ammo here:
http://www.gunblast.com/FN-FiveseveN.htm
Just because I don’t have the time and money to spend on a chrono, doesn’t mean I should be called a fan-boy because I simply have interjected Facts into the discussion.
I’m waiting to see what kind of loads are developed for this pistol. It’s obvious that current .22WMR rounds are meant for long barrel rifles.
Matt,
So, what you’re saying is, you decided to attack my statement and my research abilities before you even finished reading my entire comment?
“Quite a few people have been doing it for some time.” First of all, the expression ‘quite a few’ indicates several people or at least more than one. You only cite one company, and while it is little defense, I myself have never heard of them before this blog entry.
Second, I clearly state that I did not think those numbers were impossible, simply that I had not found ammo that produced those numbers from factory ammo and no, boutique operations do not count as ‘factories’. I hope Elite Ammunition does very well, but at $44.95 per 50 round box, I do not perceive of any possibility that I will ever be buying this ninety-cent-a-round brand myself. I mean, that’s double the price of the FN loadings made by Fiocchi.
Third, none of the Elite Ammo is listed in the charts you linked to.
Fourth, why is it the people who designed the pistol, the cartridge, and everything related to the metrics of the loadings in question, don’t push it to those levels even in their military loadings? Could it be that its not very safe?
All of the pictures appear to have been removed, possibly as part of a settlement agreement, but here’s the link to at least one unfortunate victim of overpressure 5.7 ammo:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=362563
But on the internet, our words live forever!
http://braingoodbye.com/with-guns-like-these-who-needs-enemies
Matt G,
check the link to gun blast the chart is there.
AMMUNITION BULLET WEIGHT VELOCITY ACCURACY
Elite PenetraTOR 55 1464 3.375″
Elite ProtecTOR 40 2009 3.000″
Elite VarminTOR 36 2104 2.500″
Elite Ultra RapTOR 28 2518 2.875″
Elite IlluminaTOR 53.5 1470 3.125″
FNH SS195 LF 27.5 2040 3.250″
FNH SS197 SR 40 1749 1.625″
You’ll note Jeff was able to achieve over 2000fps with SS195LF. Factory ammo is more than capable of 2000+ FPS, as original chart showed. EA has been around for at least 3yrs to my knowledge. I only used thier loadings as one of the “few” people who have been able to pump out good loads for this caliber. I make no claims about their pricing. They’re the only ones doing it on a larger scale, so they easily get what they do for their products.
reloading information is abundant on the FSN forum. I will dig up some loadings of 1800-2000+ fps in .40gr. for comparison, I’ve limited it to 40gr as both loadings exist in each caliber.
That blown up IOM was a result of a double charged round (reloaded). FNH duplicated the failure, and replaced the guy’s gun with a new one.
“Out of the FsN, the most you can expect out of a quality 45gr bullet is about 2000fps (…and thats pushing things). For a 40gr bullet you can get in the vicinity of 2080fps with Blue Dot, Acc#7, or HS-7″ One reloader.
Another was just shy of 2000fps using a .40gr
Powder: Blue Dot, 6.9 gr
Bullet: Hornday V-Max, 40 gr
Case: 1x SS197SR
Case Length: 1.135″
Overall Length: 1.585″
Primer: CCI 400
No Crimp, No Glue
AVG from 15 feet 1965 FPS.
Another:
Blue Dot
45gr Barnes TSX. Trim: 1.135″ OAL: 1.575″ Primer: CCI 400
Avg 1950FPS
And Another:
40gr Combined Technology Ballistic Silvertip Trim: 1.135″ OAL: 1.580″ Virgin SS197 brass/primer
8.5gr: 1991fps
8.6gr: 2007fps
8.7gr: 2015fps
8.8gr: 2000fps
There are more too, but it’s quite obvious ~2000fps loadings can be accomplished with commercially available components. Like I said I stuck with the .40-45gr loadings to stay close to the .22WMR loadings being discussed.
Like I said I agree that the figure given for SS197SR in the main blog is from that of a PS90 or P90, and not from a FSN, resulting in the correct statement to be two times, not three times.
I’d like to see if anyone develops better loadings for the .22WMR to see how close they can get to 5.7 numbers. As shown in the original chart, Factory 5.7 loads in the FSN are capable of over 2000fps.
Matt G,
I remember that. I collect KB! pictures and for some reason I didn’t get the chance to save them.
IIRC he did some videos that shows the fiveseven can go out of battery easily. I think that videos were also removed.
Matt,
Stop cherry picking the data you cite in order to find your velocity based argument. If it doesn’t have a 40 grain bullet, isn’t fired from a pistol, and doesn’t come from factory ammo, it is irrelevant to this argument and my initial statements.
I have already conceded that the Elite Ammo can achieve these numbers possibly at the price of safety. I also said in my original post that I thought those numbers were perfectly possible, just that it wasn’t done in factory ammo yet. You have yet to disprove this statement. You can do it with reloads? Good for you. I never said you couldn’t. I never said it was impossible. I said factory loads don’t achieve that kind of energy out of pistols. And they don’t. SS195 is a 27 grain bullet. It is irrelevant as data, as it does not achieve the energy figures I originally questioned. This is not Global Warming and you can’t just pick whatever figures you want to suit your argument.
MG,
your later reply was questioning whether or not my statement about people pushing 40gr bullets to ~2000fps, which is why I posted those loading stats. I never stated anywhere factory SS197SR was capable of 2000fps in the pistol. Read my previous statement, that I agreed that the original blog #s are fudged and they are form the P90, not the pistol.
How have you conceded that about EA? That blown up IOM you posted pictures of, was of that gentlemans own reloads, not someone else’s and not elite ammunition. I guess our discussions went different ways as I took your original statement of “numbers” to refer to velocity only. It’s already well stated that the .22WMR currently falls short in pistol form compared to any factory, civilian attainable 5.7 ammo. Like I said it will be interesting to see if a manufacturer is able to push .22WMR faster out of the pistol. Kind of like the Person Defense .410 pistol ammo they have for the judge.
Too many numbers for me. I just want one to add to the collection. I have 3 KT’s and all are fun as is the Judge and Saiga 12.
EA ammo is factory ammo. We manufacture 5.7×28 and beside FN contract makers we are the only ones.
Our loads are not over pressure and that FB of a FsN pistol was done by the owner himself owns hand load.
FsN Pistol
S4 UltraRapTOR 2,600fps 28gr
ProtecTOR Personal Defense 2,092fps 40gr V-max
PenetraTOR Tac-Op 1,800 fps 55gr FMJBT Mil Spec
IlluminaTOR Tracer 1,800 fps 55gr Mil Spec tracer
QuieTOR Subsonic 912 fps 55gr FMJBT
VarminaTOR 2,202 fps 36gr Barnes V.G.
X-TerminaTOR 1,975 fps 45gr Barnes TSX
SinTOR 1,850 fps 36gr SinterFire bullet
Our numbers have been confirmed by many third party testers including the Feb edition of Combat Handguns who did an article on the FsN and EA ammunition.
You can find out more factual information at http://www.fivesevenforum.com
JWolf, thanks for the comment.
Oh and yes I think that Kel-Tec is cool and YES I will buy one!
Feh. If I a want heavy and slow, “knock ‘em down with a flying ashtray” caliber I reach for my 1911.
If I want to push a little 85 grain pill at 1600 feet per second, I reach for my Polish Tokarev. Both the pistol and surplus ammo are incredibly well made and incredibly affordable. Nearly the energy of a 45, too. There are hollowpoints made by numerous companies in 7.62×25 that do damage that has to be seen to be believed.
Re-inventing the wheel, is all that silly, overpriced 5.7×28 Blueshirt Bullet is, really.
I see from gel tests they penetrate on average the same amount as standard 9mm, .40, .45ACP.
Here’s wolf JHP
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Wolf%2085gr%20Copper%20JHP.html
The FMJ on the other hand penetrates quite well, which ideally is too much for self defense purposes.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/762×25mm.html
I’d be interested to see if non steel core FMJ 7.62×25 could penetrate body armor.
So the Fiven-seveN achieves more energy then the .22 Magnum out of a Rifle is what you should be saying. That puts it in better perspective.
And please do include Elite Ammunition in the comparison otherwise that’s like saying the 10mm can do no better then the .40 S&W because that was the only main manufacturer loading for a long time despite it’s real capability. Boutique or not, if it can safely reach high levels those should be what are measured.
What may be the source of confusion is that the ballistics of the 5.7 PISTOL are actually VERY close to the ballistics of a 22 Magnum Rimfire out of a RIFLE.
Similarly, confusion exists betwen 5.7 carbine ballistics and 5.7 pistol ballistics, causing some people to claim that velocities out of the pistol are higher than they really are, when in fact they are erroniously substituting 5.7 carbine ballistics for 5.7 pistiol ballistics.
Generally, 22 magnum ballistics out of a PISTOL will be the equivelent of 22 Long rifle ballistics out of a Rifle.
Most all cartridges gain 25 to 45 fps of velocity for every inch of barrel added an dlose that amount for every inch of barrel length subtracted, depending on the expansion ratio of the individua cartridge which is the relationship between bore size and case capacity.
That would be why I included the ballistic tables. You also have to take into account the type of projectiles used and their performance over 22mag projectiles.
The 28gr Aluminum cored bullet is actually longer then a 62gr FMJ .223 bullet.
Giving it a very good BC and startling performance on target.
To JWolf: You’re absolutely right that the larger capacity center fire cartridge has an advantage when it comes to projectiles, but it’s a moot point since in comparing the two pistols, the 5.7 FN is developing approximate 22 magnum rimfire rifle velocities out of a pistol while the kel-tec 30 is producing 22 LR RIFLE ballistics out of pistol and that’s not even comparable.
That being said, I wouldn’t want to be shot 30 times with a 22 LR rifle, and in that regard the new keltec will prove to be a formidable weapon as long as they work out all the technical bugs and end up with something that absolutely without exception goes bang! every time the trigger is squeezed, just like the kel-tec 32 that I’ve owned and have carried daily for the past six years always does. Ditto for their 9mm carbines, total reliability.
Keltec has also come out recently with a bullpup, forward ejecting .308 rifle that will sell for about $1200 bucks. They are fast becoming a serious cutting edge manufacturer of top quality firearms.
So, “current” .22 mag loads don’t perform like the 5.7 out of a pistol. But, if .22 mag pistols take off, is there any reason .22 mag pistol loads could not be developed that would approximate the 5.7. I don’t see why not.
Case can’t handle the pressure and neither could the gun. Rim fire primer would give you problems also. That’s why it was dropped many years ago in favor of modern primers.