Myth Busting: .22 Magnum vs. 5.7x28mm
Inevitably, Kel-Tec's new .22 Magnum (WMR) chambered PMR-30 pistol will be compared to the FN Five-seveN pistol which fires the ballistically similar 5.7x28mm cartridge. If people are not saying it now, they will be soon saying that the .22 Magnum is the same as the 5.7x28mm. I used to say the same thing. It turns out that this is far from the truth.
Kel-Tec have stated [PDF Link] that a 40 grain .22 WMR round should reach a velocity of 1230 fps from the 4.3" barrel of their PMR-30 pistol. This works out to 134.40 ft/lbs of energy.
This is a significantly less than the FN Five-seveN USG (4.75" barrel), which can push a 40 grain bullet at 2009 fps. This works out to 358.57 ft/lbs! Nearly three times as powerful as the .22 WMR! 1
This does not mean that the .22 WMR is not a good cartridge. It simply means that the 5.7mm is optimized to be fired from a pistol, rather than the slower burning .22 WMR loads which are designed to be fired from a rifle.
UPDATE: Added correct link to specs on Kel-Tec's website : http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/downloads/SHOT2010_preview_keltec_PMR-30.pdf [PDF Link]
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I assume that the 5.8mm load mentioned above it a hot load. I also assume that Kel-Tec will be publishing the results of the best performing ammunition they could find ↩
I have been on a waiting list for the PMR-30 for over a year and someone brought my attention to the FN FiveSeven lately. Cost isn’t an issue and the FN seems to have a lot of good qualities. The following article http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/03/handgun_reviews_fnusg_021207/ seems to indicate that the FN can be pretty effective because of its rapid yaw cycle. I am a novice but the author says, “It’s obvious that the rounds yaw quickly as two rounds penetrated approximately six inches and then turned 90 degrees and exited the side of the water container.” Sounds to me like it wouldn’t be a good thing to be hit by one of these 5.7x28mn bullets. The killer in the Ft. Hood shooting two years ago used an FN FiveSeven and, unfortunatley, it proved to be quite effective.
I have a handgun in every common caliber. The PMR30 is the most fun to shoot gun that I own. I wish ammo was cheaper but it is still cheaper than centerfire unless you hand load. I do handload but it is nice to not have to search for brass on the ground. I havent tested the speed of the 22mag out of this gun but I will say this. When shooting double phone books shrink wrapped together the 22 mag out performs any 22lr round from either my 10-22 or Marlin 39A. It easily passed through 4 inches of phone book and leaves a nice big hole on exit. Rarely does the 22lr exit the same. Even 125grain 38special from a j frame does not exit.
Would I carry the PMR for self defense? Not purely for self defense. I much prefer the Glock 19 or even my S&W scandium 357 for that reason. For camping, walking in the woods, fun shooting the PMR is perfect. If I happen to run into bad guys in the woods, 30 rounds of 22 mag makes a lot of noise and shoots flat and accurate. I think anyone who is left around after one magazine of these will be either stupid or crazy. This gun is about as good as it gets for $350.
Really a bit baffled why any civilian would have a perceived need for 5.7 NATO as a defensive cartridge…it was designed to give rear-area troops a fighting chance against Russian commandos with body armor, and was specifically designed to penetrate armor, much like M855 is. It’s not supposed to be used on soft targets; the five sweaters or whatever your home invader is wearing to disguise his appearance are not 5.7′s optimized home. Unless you’re James Bond or something it’s just not a terribly good idea when there’s plenty of soft-target-oriented rounds on the market.
Where is the data proving the 5.7 “tumbles” on impact and causes more damage? Paint me a skeptic but I don’t buy a jacketed bullet would hold together to tumble. It appears to be another Internet myth perpetrated by the 5.7 fans.
If someone can provide the emperical data to show me I’m wrong I’ll admit to being wrong.
Guys, numbers and measurements are nice, but real life is kind a different. To compare the 5.7mm to 9mm its very similar as compare 7.62×39 to .223 round. Which one is better? Well it highly depends on situation. The 5.7 round fired form a pistol has bit more then half the energy of a 9mm, but. There is still a big BUT, if you make tests with gelatin or meat, you will find out (since its actually a shrinked down .223) it will rotate in flesh causing bigger wounds then 9mm, also if you dont directly hit vital organs or bones, it will much likely cause hydrophobic shock easier then 9mm (due to higher impact velocity). There is also one more fact saying that the 5.7 round might be better, its has very flat trajectory so you will hit targets in 100yards, where 9mm is suitable in sub 50m firefights. Other plus is that about same size 9mm pistol will carry about 17 rounds but 5.7 will have 20 rounds. The recoil of 5.7 pistols is much lower then with 9mm giving you higher accuracy by following shots. Then again, try to stop a car driver ramming you with 9mm, yo will do it with 5.7 but not with 9mm. Numbers are nice, but the real life use is different. For ranges around 20-30m Id say 9mm is better (or lets say safer for bystanders). As I said to compare 9mm vs 5.7 its like comparing .223 and 7.62×39. Of course Im bit off topic, but I dont have much knowledge about .22 of any flavor.
Samoblack,
I am not arguing your point with respect to the 5.7 vs the anything. I carry a 1911 in .45acp. These little calibers will hurt you a lot if you are hit by one, but they simply are not good “up and close” defensive rounds.
My complaint is that you don’t understand the difference between “then” and “than”!!! Please continue your discourse, but understand that if you wish to compare two or more things use “than”. Please search on “then vs than”. It is very simple
I really don’t want to kill anyone, but I also am determined not to be a victim. I feel confident I could defend myself with 22 LR, WMR even better! Perpetrators really aren’t interested in messing with anyone who will be shooting back at them, particularly 30 rounds in 10 seconds! A PMR 30 would give me all the confidence I need. My vision is to turn perpetrators into victims, but if they are dead, what fun is that?!
But with the Kel-Tec you get 30 .22 MAG.
30
Apples to oranges don’t always mean much. A nice, light, inexpensive, well made American pistol that uses easily obtained inexpensive ammo, with a 30 round magazine is a winner. I would certainly back off before I risked being shot by a .22 WMR. I have seen the videos, and the shooters squeezed off a hail of rounds in a very short time, holding on target very well because of the recoil characteristics, and I would choose this weapon over all the others.
Wayne…..You have to remember that the 5.7 yaws when it hits creating a larger wound channel and depositing full energy within target. Combine that with the energy of the round and it is not just superior, but a far superior round. It is terribly expensive because only FN makes the round (it’s been a while since I looked into it cause I sold my five seven years ago). Wolf was going to manufacture it, but never did. Remember also that the recoil on the five seven is almost 22ish (not quite of course), which allows for faster target acquisition and the round is small enough that the five seven magazine holds 20 rounds. The yawing factor is not to be underestimated either, Wayne. It can create far more deadly wounds that any 22 anything period. It moves around and is more likely to take a turn that hits an organ or other sensitive area after impact. Also a larger wound channel. Hope this helps.
Fact remains that a .22Mag in such a compact pistol with 30 rounds in it is going to stop any body, in fact a whole lot of somebody’s just as fast as anything else.
Main thing is accuracy and the ability to carry 30+ rounds in a small package.
The PMR30 is good for that and one heck of lot cheaper.
All it needs is a 2″ longer barrel, like Wayne said barrel length is not the problem with concealment but in 22 magnum it IS the problem when you get something like 350FPS more from just that 2 extra inches.
The difference in FPE from a 40gr going 1300 up to 1650 is over 90FPE and flatter shooting. I think 150FPE up to 241FPE is well worth the extra 2″ so you can take advantage of this nice round.
I have been reading and rarely commenting on this blog for a while – what an excellent source of durable comment on especially new developments!
While looking to replace the CY-lasered KelTec PF9 I had to sell a few months back, I found out about the PMR30 and became intrigued – maybe my dozen+ pocket pistol inventory (including my daily CT lasered P3AT) does not need to be refreshed immediately and maybe I need something different to make up for the coming (finally!) acquisition of a repeater .50BMG…
So – I am sold on the PMR30 if I can find one – I will even add a .22WMR NAA minirevolver with a laser to compliment it if I can find one for cheap.
To me, from all I have been reading in the past couple of hours, the 5.7 is clearly *somewhat* a superior round. I have only ever shot full auto P90 s and never the Five-Seven, but I have watched the prices over the years and remain aloof.
BTW: To Wes in the last posted comment: No, sorry guy, but you have seen wrong data. The .223 out of an M4 still exceeds 2300fps with a 63 grain bullet (I think still north of 1k ftlbs) – and is in a whole other class than the 5.7×28. The neat thing about the 5.7 is its efficiency in rounds per weight and volume (especially length) of the rounds for feeding in a particular magazine of a smaller arm.
The .223, even in a kitty-kat (7.5-10.5 in bbl), is completely superior in every regard to the 5.7. Miscomparing advertising BS utilizing unusual optimized illegal-bullets-for-less-than-TSAmolester-commoners like us in bizarre tests designed to meet some new foreign military rigged gubmnt bid conditions to win a contract is way past the apples to oranges stage and more like the grapes to scrap iron area.
The 5.7 is a neat and intriguing round, but nowhere near a .223 or even the ancient .22 hornet, except in specific loadings.
Similarly it seems to me the .22WMR is yet another half level down in power – but, like the 5.7 to .223 comparison, available in even MORE compact mag configs – 30 rounds of weak 9mm/strong 9mm Mak energy very flat shooting uber cheap .22WMR is a significant reason to consider including one.
Like all the .410 revolvers, from the old Thunder 5 to the new Taurii (even in 3 in), the big difference in short pistol vs. carbine or rifle bbl length does make a strong argument for at least a 6 in bbl, if not 8.
I really do not get the whole thing about short bbls for concealment. Slim, light and SHORT HEIGHT matter more than a short barrel length as the barrel is usually down along the leg. (I played with carrying my suppressed Glock M20 for years – the full-sized mag well and thickness of the pistol was the issue – and I live in Texas where you wear shorts in the early spring through late fall.)
Again, thanks to all for the discussion and input – I think I will end up with one of these little critters fairly soon.
If I recall the data correctly the fiveseven pistol is equall to the m4 rifle at it’s intended effective ranges. 20yards fiveseven pistol compares to 300yards m4 rifle. End of debate.
Physics and human anatomy are something most people lack education in. When the human flesh is hit with a projectile at such high velocity the flesh is forced to absorb such shock. But that’s hard for most people to grasp. Just like how water jets can be used to cut steel.
Probably your best bet might be a gun show or two.
I bet these are sold faster than they can make them.
I emailed the company a few months ago and they said they were bringing out a version with a longer barrel at some point.
I would wait for that, 4.3″ is too short a barrel for a 22mag.
Extra 2″ makes a nice difference.
All I want to know is where I can obtain one or two of them. I have been reading about the thing for a long time. I would like to see what it will do. I have an semi auto pistol that fires the 22 mag but I have never enjoyed shooting it. I like the 22 mag in a rifle and hope it will be good in a pistol.
My AMT AutomagII shots 22mag at about 1680fps but it has a 6″ barrel which is exactly what this PMR30 needs.
The PMR30 with 6″ barrel and with a detachable butt stock would make a nice little pistol/carbine combo.
But 22mag needs at least a 6″ barrel.
Soon as this pistol becomes available with a 6″ barrel I will buy it.
I WANT ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOW!!!!!!
I saw on the Kel Tec facebook page that they expect to ship the PMR-30 out at the end of June.
Steve, I just tried to post this on the actual entry for the PMR-30 but don’t have the ability to add another comment … is that by design or is something goofed?
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/23/kel-tec-pmr-30-pistol/
In regard to my previous statments I need to add:
The Kel-Tec I would NOT use as a self defence side arm !
Tthat is what my 1911 series 70 in .45ACP is for.
Also I have a S&W J frame .38 cal for backup.
I am curently practicing “Point Shooting” with 2 matching S&W K-22′s. I shoot a lot. Last week I shot over 1200 LR rounds.
When I go out to shoot my 22′s, I shoot 4-500 rounds per visit.
The .22 mag has no place in my armory. It would fall into a catagory of mine as a fun gun for plinking and maybe pest control around my country house.
A pistol in .22LR & a 30 round mag is something I would love to have. It’s purpose is NOT SELF DEFENCE.
So I would like to see the P30 in .22LR>>>>
Ron
You guys are forgetting one very important factor…..That the 5.8×27 yaws or tumbles when it hits, causing a much larger wound channel and causing the round to deliver full energy to the target. This can’t be overstated enough. Combine that with the fps differences and we clearly can see why these 2 are NOT comparable. The Five seveN is in a class of its own. It is expensive and it is expensive to shoot, which is why I sold it years ago.
Killing and Stopping are two different things. Michael Lee Platt killed several FBI agents in 1986 AFTER being mortally wounded. If you’re LE (which I am not), I think you want Stopping power. Asking which one kills better is a suspicious inquiry.
Which of two pistols kills better, I mean.
A well aimed shot.
What kills better?
@ Ron Medcalf
It looks like the energies you cited would be for those rounds out of a rifle length barrel. I can guarantee you that you would NOT get 1640 FPS with a .32 grain Stinger out of any .22 with a 4.3″ barrel. Maybe closer to 1300 FPS with stingers, which would be about 120 FPE. That’s damn good performance, but it’s still less powerful than just about any .22 Mag load out of a pistol and it’s being optimistic. Also, CCI Stingers can easily cost as much as .22 Magnum.
I find it puzzling that people would buy a pistol in an knowingly inferior caliber because it’s cheaper to shoot, but when you point out that reloading almost any centerfire pistol cartridge is cheaper still, they refuse to consider it. This may not be the case with you Ron, and it doesn’t apply to this Kel-Tec at all, but I see that alot.
And on the standard 22 LR ammo the weight
should have been 40gr..
\My right hand little finger is spastic today/ lol
On the previous statement I typed the weight wrong on the Aguila SSS 22LR.
The bullet weighs 60gr, not 69 which was a misprint.
The 22 mag and the 17HMR are rifle cartridges!
With the short barrel and slow burning powder, we will not get the performance intrinsic to these cartridges.
So, what should be done ?
In my opinion from firing both from rifles and pistol. the ammo makers should make these 2 rounds with faster burning powder. Keep in mind these are Rim-fire cases and the reason we don’t see a lot of different calibers is the case of the rim-fire is too thin for the pressures.
So, the manufacturers could make the barrels longer but how long are you going to make a pistol barrel before it doesn’t resemble a pistol at all. I don’t think that will happen. People like the looks of a 5″ auto pistol.
Knowing the energy of 22LR ammo out of a pistol shows I can get significant fp/lbs energy . ex:
22 Standard ammo 49gr bullet give 100f/p energy
22 Stinger with a 32gr bullet gives 191f/p energy
22 SSS with a 69gr bullet gives 120f/p energy
I don’t need a pistol in 22 mag or 17HMR
I want a pistol with a 30 magazine in 22lr !
For me it’s a no brainer, 22LR are cheap compared the the others and extremely versatility.
When Kel-Tec makes a hand gun with a 30 rnd magazine fitted for the 22LR, I WILL BUY IT ////
Whoa! I just saw the new PMR 30 pistol from Kel-Tec. I can at least stop crying now that I will be able to buy a replacement of my lost Grendel P-30. I loved that gun. I hope I can still find one somewhere. It did have a propensity to move the safety from fire to safe during shooting. Other than that and “Oh me God! When will this thing run out of bullets? I wanna go home…….. The price is a little steep though, considering all the $350-400 guns going around with larger calibers. As for a 22LR, don’t pay attention to these cheap penny pinchers. 22 mag it is. Can’t wait..
Master Rod
Desert ammo supply, I would love to see that ammo chronographed since they are using Dillon 550 shell plates bought from us and 1x brass.
Is that 1950 from a pistol or PS90?
The five-seven has bullets that are pushed to the 2300fps or higher, made my speciality remanufaturers. Such as Elite Ammo and Desert ammo supply. In fact Desert ammo loaded me some custom 50 grain flat nose bullet going 1950 ft.
I”m guessing here, but the .22 mag is a rifle cartridge and if they made it with faster burning powder it would probably be too much of a peak pressure cartridge for a pistol. Or at least for a pistol without a gigantic chamber/barrel forging to hold in the pressure.
Thus being too heavy and unpleasant, and prompting the question – why not just get a 9mm?
But because it’s a rifle cartridge, the longer the barrel, the faster the bullet. And since a .22 LR is not a slow burner, it sort of ‘catches up’ to the .22 mag in a short barrel situation. THe mag’s powder charge explodes outside the barrel, making a big boom and a nice flame blast but not contributing to the speed of the bullet. THe .22LR is mostly finished burning when the bullet comes out of the barrel, so less flame and bang but more efficient use of its powder.
the magnum is faster, but not twice as fast, from a pistol barrel. Probably 1/4 faster or less.
THat said, I”m buying this new Keltec as soon as I can. LOVE the .22 mag, even from a pistol. Love the boom, love the flames. Supersonic. a 30 grain probably will get better than 1400 fps at the muzzle from this pistol, better than a revolver because there’s no cylinder gap to weaken the push.
Case can’t handle the pressure and neither could the gun. Rim fire primer would give you problems also. That’s why it was dropped many years ago in favor of modern primers.
So, “current” .22 mag loads don’t perform like the 5.7 out of a pistol. But, if .22 mag pistols take off, is there any reason .22 mag pistol loads could not be developed that would approximate the 5.7. I don’t see why not.
To JWolf: You’re absolutely right that the larger capacity center fire cartridge has an advantage when it comes to projectiles, but it’s a moot point since in comparing the two pistols, the 5.7 FN is developing approximate 22 magnum rimfire rifle velocities out of a pistol while the kel-tec 30 is producing 22 LR RIFLE ballistics out of pistol and that’s not even comparable.
That being said, I wouldn’t want to be shot 30 times with a 22 LR rifle, and in that regard the new keltec will prove to be a formidable weapon as long as they work out all the technical bugs and end up with something that absolutely without exception goes bang! every time the trigger is squeezed, just like the kel-tec 32 that I’ve owned and have carried daily for the past six years always does. Ditto for their 9mm carbines, total reliability.
Keltec has also come out recently with a bullpup, forward ejecting .308 rifle that will sell for about $1200 bucks. They are fast becoming a serious cutting edge manufacturer of top quality firearms.
That would be why I included the ballistic tables. You also have to take into account the type of projectiles used and their performance over 22mag projectiles.
The 28gr Aluminum cored bullet is actually longer then a 62gr FMJ .223 bullet.
Giving it a very good BC and startling performance on target.
What may be the source of confusion is that the ballistics of the 5.7 PISTOL are actually VERY close to the ballistics of a 22 Magnum Rimfire out of a RIFLE.
Similarly, confusion exists betwen 5.7 carbine ballistics and 5.7 pistol ballistics, causing some people to claim that velocities out of the pistol are higher than they really are, when in fact they are erroniously substituting 5.7 carbine ballistics for 5.7 pistiol ballistics.
Generally, 22 magnum ballistics out of a PISTOL will be the equivelent of 22 Long rifle ballistics out of a Rifle.
Most all cartridges gain 25 to 45 fps of velocity for every inch of barrel added an dlose that amount for every inch of barrel length subtracted, depending on the expansion ratio of the individua cartridge which is the relationship between bore size and case capacity.
So the Fiven-seveN achieves more energy then the .22 Magnum out of a Rifle is what you should be saying. That puts it in better perspective.
And please do include Elite Ammunition in the comparison otherwise that’s like saying the 10mm can do no better then the .40 S&W because that was the only main manufacturer loading for a long time despite it’s real capability. Boutique or not, if it can safely reach high levels those should be what are measured.
I see from gel tests they penetrate on average the same amount as standard 9mm, .40, .45ACP.
Here’s wolf JHP
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Wolf%2085gr%20Copper%20JHP.html
The FMJ on the other hand penetrates quite well, which ideally is too much for self defense purposes.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/762x25mm.html
I’d be interested to see if non steel core FMJ 7.62×25 could penetrate body armor.
Feh. If I a want heavy and slow, “knock ‘em down with a flying ashtray” caliber I reach for my 1911.
If I want to push a little 85 grain pill at 1600 feet per second, I reach for my Polish Tokarev. Both the pistol and surplus ammo are incredibly well made and incredibly affordable. Nearly the energy of a 45, too. There are hollowpoints made by numerous companies in 7.62×25 that do damage that has to be seen to be believed.
Re-inventing the wheel, is all that silly, overpriced 5.7×28 Blueshirt Bullet is, really.
Oh and yes I think that Kel-Tec is cool and YES I will buy one!
EA ammo is factory ammo. We manufacture 5.7×28 and beside FN contract makers we are the only ones.
Our loads are not over pressure and that FB of a FsN pistol was done by the owner himself owns hand load.
FsN Pistol
S4 UltraRapTOR 2,600fps 28gr
ProtecTOR Personal Defense 2,092fps 40gr V-max
PenetraTOR Tac-Op 1,800 fps 55gr FMJBT Mil Spec
IlluminaTOR Tracer 1,800 fps 55gr Mil Spec tracer
QuieTOR Subsonic 912 fps 55gr FMJBT
VarminaTOR 2,202 fps 36gr Barnes V.G.
X-TerminaTOR 1,975 fps 45gr Barnes TSX
SinTOR 1,850 fps 36gr SinterFire bullet
Our numbers have been confirmed by many third party testers including the Feb edition of Combat Handguns who did an article on the FsN and EA ammunition.
You can find out more factual information at http://www.fivesevenforum.com
JWolf, thanks for the comment.
Too many numbers for me. I just want one to add to the collection. I have 3 KT’s and all are fun as is the Judge and Saiga 12.
MG,
your later reply was questioning whether or not my statement about people pushing 40gr bullets to ~2000fps, which is why I posted those loading stats. I never stated anywhere factory SS197SR was capable of 2000fps in the pistol. Read my previous statement, that I agreed that the original blog #s are fudged and they are form the P90, not the pistol.
How have you conceded that about EA? That blown up IOM you posted pictures of, was of that gentlemans own reloads, not someone else’s and not elite ammunition. I guess our discussions went different ways as I took your original statement of “numbers” to refer to velocity only. It’s already well stated that the .22WMR currently falls short in pistol form compared to any factory, civilian attainable 5.7 ammo. Like I said it will be interesting to see if a manufacturer is able to push .22WMR faster out of the pistol. Kind of like the Person Defense .410 pistol ammo they have for the judge.
Matt,
Stop cherry picking the data you cite in order to find your velocity based argument. If it doesn’t have a 40 grain bullet, isn’t fired from a pistol, and doesn’t come from factory ammo, it is irrelevant to this argument and my initial statements.
I have already conceded that the Elite Ammo can achieve these numbers possibly at the price of safety. I also said in my original post that I thought those numbers were perfectly possible, just that it wasn’t done in factory ammo yet. You have yet to disprove this statement. You can do it with reloads? Good for you. I never said you couldn’t. I never said it was impossible. I said factory loads don’t achieve that kind of energy out of pistols. And they don’t. SS195 is a 27 grain bullet. It is irrelevant as data, as it does not achieve the energy figures I originally questioned. This is not Global Warming and you can’t just pick whatever figures you want to suit your argument.
Matt G,
I remember that. I collect KB! pictures and for some reason I didn’t get the chance to save them.
IIRC he did some videos that shows the fiveseven can go out of battery easily. I think that videos were also removed.
“Out of the FsN, the most you can expect out of a quality 45gr bullet is about 2000fps (…and thats pushing things). For a 40gr bullet you can get in the vicinity of 2080fps with Blue Dot, Acc#7, or HS-7″ One reloader.
Another was just shy of 2000fps using a .40gr
Powder: Blue Dot, 6.9 gr
Bullet: Hornday V-Max, 40 gr
Case: 1x SS197SR
Case Length: 1.135″
Overall Length: 1.585″
Primer: CCI 400
No Crimp, No Glue
AVG from 15 feet 1965 FPS.
Another:
Blue Dot
45gr Barnes TSX. Trim: 1.135″ OAL: 1.575″ Primer: CCI 400
Avg 1950FPS
And Another:
40gr Combined Technology Ballistic Silvertip Trim: 1.135″ OAL: 1.580″ Virgin SS197 brass/primer
8.5gr: 1991fps
8.6gr: 2007fps
8.7gr: 2015fps
8.8gr: 2000fps
There are more too, but it’s quite obvious ~2000fps loadings can be accomplished with commercially available components. Like I said I stuck with the .40-45gr loadings to stay close to the .22WMR loadings being discussed.
Like I said I agree that the figure given for SS197SR in the main blog is from that of a PS90 or P90, and not from a FSN, resulting in the correct statement to be two times, not three times.
I’d like to see if anyone develops better loadings for the .22WMR to see how close they can get to 5.7 numbers. As shown in the original chart, Factory 5.7 loads in the FSN are capable of over 2000fps.
Matt G,
check the link to gun blast the chart is there.
AMMUNITION BULLET WEIGHT VELOCITY ACCURACY
Elite PenetraTOR 55 1464 3.375″
Elite ProtecTOR 40 2009 3.000″
Elite VarminTOR 36 2104 2.500″
Elite Ultra RapTOR 28 2518 2.875″
Elite IlluminaTOR 53.5 1470 3.125″
FNH SS195 LF 27.5 2040 3.250″
FNH SS197 SR 40 1749 1.625″
You’ll note Jeff was able to achieve over 2000fps with SS195LF. Factory ammo is more than capable of 2000+ FPS, as original chart showed. EA has been around for at least 3yrs to my knowledge. I only used thier loadings as one of the “few” people who have been able to pump out good loads for this caliber. I make no claims about their pricing. They’re the only ones doing it on a larger scale, so they easily get what they do for their products.
reloading information is abundant on the FSN forum. I will dig up some loadings of 1800-2000+ fps in .40gr. for comparison, I’ve limited it to 40gr as both loadings exist in each caliber.
That blown up IOM was a result of a double charged round (reloaded). FNH duplicated the failure, and replaced the guy’s gun with a new one.
Matt,
So, what you’re saying is, you decided to attack my statement and my research abilities before you even finished reading my entire comment?
“Quite a few people have been doing it for some time.” First of all, the expression ‘quite a few’ indicates several people or at least more than one. You only cite one company, and while it is little defense, I myself have never heard of them before this blog entry.
Second, I clearly state that I did not think those numbers were impossible, simply that I had not found ammo that produced those numbers from factory ammo and no, boutique operations do not count as ‘factories’. I hope Elite Ammunition does very well, but at $44.95 per 50 round box, I do not perceive of any possibility that I will ever be buying this ninety-cent-a-round brand myself. I mean, that’s double the price of the FN loadings made by Fiocchi.
Third, none of the Elite Ammo is listed in the charts you linked to.
Fourth, why is it the people who designed the pistol, the cartridge, and everything related to the metrics of the loadings in question, don’t push it to those levels even in their military loadings? Could it be that its not very safe?
All of the pictures appear to have been removed, possibly as part of a settlement agreement, but here’s the link to at least one unfortunate victim of overpressure 5.7 ammo:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=362563
But on the internet, our words live forever!
http://braingoodbye.com/with-guns-like-these-who-needs-enemies
Matt Groom,
I was merely posting factory ammunition tables to show velocities of all factory 5.7 ammo. SS192/195 is available to civilians btw. SS198 can be had also, but isn’t worth the cost, and even for $700 you can get your hands on SS190. The table was in response to your statement:
” I have yet to find a 5.7 round that performs to the level of the numbers you have posted Steve I think the round may be capable of this (in a Contender or Bolt Action), but nobody is pushing it to that level as of yet.” You make no mention of the SS197SR round before you stated that, so I took it as you meant that there are no 5.7 loadings that are over 2000 fps in the FSN. Which as the table shows there are. I agree that the three times is off. It’s two times.
and You didn’t read my reply. I said “There are quite a few people who have pushed 40gr .224 bullets in the 5.7×28mm round to 2000-2100fps. Quite a few people have been doing it for some time.”
Quite a few people (I didn’t says FNH themselves) have pushed 40gr 5.7 loadings to over 2000fps. EA’s Protector Round (40gr) has published 2080 fps again from the FSN. they also achieve 1900 fps from a 45gr loading also. They have achieved 2500-2600fps from their 28gr loading. GunBlast did an article on the FSN. You can find his velocity figures of all civilian ownable ammo here:
http://www.gunblast.com/FN-FiveseveN.htm
Just because I don’t have the time and money to spend on a chrono, doesn’t mean I should be called a fan-boy because I simply have interjected Facts into the discussion.
I’m waiting to see what kind of loads are developed for this pistol. It’s obvious that current .22WMR rounds are meant for long barrel rifles.
As the 5.7 mm is a centerfire round, it can be loaded to much higher pressures than the 22 WMR which has to be fired via a priming compound in the rim. This is why a major revolution in the history of firearms came about when gunmakers switched from large bore rimfires (IIRC the biggest rimfire rounds were .577 cal before gunmakers stopped building guns for them) to centerfires.
That said, the Kel Tec pistol does look interesting and it could be a fun pistol to own if someone has a rifle in the same caliber. As Heath has pointed out, the 5mm rimfire was much more powerful – since Aguila makes 5mm RF ammunition again and sells it in the USA, maybe Keltec could look at chambering their pistol for it? I keep hearing rumors on some forums about some gunmaker or the other planning to offer the 5mm rimfire but have seen nothing to suggest that there is anything imminent. Sad!
Matt,
I’m pretty sure we were talking about pistols, fella. Apparently your reading skills aren’t that good, because if you actually, uhh, READ the tables, or know anything about the cartridges that are listed, you will see that there are NO 40 grain bullets pushed to those velocities from a pistol. Also, they don’t sell those rounds to civilians, so why do you care how fast the can go?
Also, I’ve done actual testing with a real chronograph and a real gun and real bullets, fanboy. So yes, my “research” of scanning the internet for information is apparently lacking due to my heavy reliance on real world data obtained through the scientific method.
You will also note that the actual numbers I published are slightly higher from the Five Seven pistol than the numbers published by DML5. Energy=Mass x Velocity Squared. That means if the numbers posted for the 40 grain SS196 and SS197 do not meet much less exceed the numbers I got, that it still is not capable of producing “three times” the muzzle energy out of a pistol. Perhaps it isn’t my research skills that are challenged after all.
certainly.
http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=55
matt, thanks.
To Matt Groom,
There are quite a few people who have pushed 40gr .224 bullets in the 5.7x28mm round to 2000-2100fps. Quite a few people have been doing it for some time. Apparently your research isn’t that good. SS190, SS192, SS195LF (white box) and SS198 are all capable of over 2000 fps.
|———P90———|———-PS90———|——FiveseveN—-|
SS190 —–(2350 fps)————-(2600 fps)————-(2100 fps)—–
SS191 —–(2350 fps)————-(2600 fps)————-(2100 fps)—–
SS192 —–(2350 fps)————-(2600 fps)————-(2100 fps)—–
SB193 —–(1000 fps)—————————————————-
T194 ——(2350 fps)————–(2600 fps)————-(2100 fps)—–
SS195 —–(2350 fps)————-(2600 fps)————-(2100 fps)—–
NEW SS195-(2220.5)—————(1470.5)————–(1970.5)——-
SS196 —–(1800 fps)————-(1950 fps)————-(1550 fps)—–
SS197 —–(1950 fps)————-(2100 fps)————-(1675 fps)—–
SS198 —–(2500 fps)———————————–(2200 fps)—-
matt, can you please post a link with the source of that ballistic info.
I am impressed with the P90 performance.
How does one get the 358 ft lb figure if both bullets are 40 grains and are being driven with 21 fps of each other?
I like it. Functional, enough punch for plinking or small game, and enough ammo to take almost anything. If poachers can take deer with .22LR and Eskimos can take polar bear with a .22 hornet logic would hold that on could take elk with a .22 mag. What would make this gun really awesome would be a .17 HMR counterpart.
Interesting. The 5mm pushes a 30 grain bullet at a reported 2300 fps. No idea if it has the same issues as the 22 Magnum with its being designed for a rifle and not the right powder for a handgun.
Thanks Steve. Will start saving — and building up Honey Do credits.
Oh jeez, to further my last point, I just saw the post for the WTS .50 BMG pistol. More evidence needed???
I am going to found a company to design a derringer. .500 Nitro Express on the top barrel and a 10 gauge 3-1/2 shell on the bottom. It will be first gun ever made where the muzzle brake is heavier than the rest of the gun. Someone will buy it…
Wow. I missed the original blog post re: the PMR-30. There is nothing on the Kel-Tec site that I’ve seen, and I go there quite a bit as I own a SU-16CA and covet an RFB…
I’ve always wanted an old Grendel P-30, but I have reservations about getting a handgun with known feeding issues and $100 magazines that no one is making anymore. I guess Kel-Tec read my mind. Now make this pistol and a R-31 style with a 16″ barrel and a folding stock…now yer talkin’! Preorder me for one of each.
As for the ballistic differences…I echo that neither cartridge is optimized for standard pistol length barrels. But, there are a lot of rifles chambered for pistol rounds that do just fine and vice versa. The beauty of the American gun market is particular guns don’t have to be useful or totally efficient, they just have to have buyers. Taurus Judge/Thunder Five I’m talking to YOU!
UPDATE: Added correct link to specs on Kel-Tec’s website : http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/downloads/SHOT2010_preview_keltec_PMR-30.pdf
I think the real issue here is how ugly both of these pea shooters are…
this gun from kel-tec seems pretty nice
i just hope its still in existence when im actually old enough to buy one…about 5 years? i have a 5.7 (technically not mine) as for it hitting less than a 9mm,a small bullet traveling at over 700 m/s is sure to atleast make you flinch
The 5.7x28mm hit less then a 9mm. Why would you want that? You have to draw the line when a caliber is too small.
Check the velocity figures for the 5.7×28 out of a Five-Seven pistol.
A 28gr. projectile at 2040 fps. = 258.9 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy.
A 40gr. projectile at 1749 fps. = 271.8 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy.
If the 22 WMR achieves about 1200 fps out of a 4-5 inch barrel, then what’s the advantage of a pistol chambered in 22 WMR over one chambered in 22 Long Rifle?
Whatever, good point, but I do not know the ballistics of a .22 out of a 4″ barrel. 40 grain .22LR tend to be the standard velocity (subsonic).
Why not make a 30rd 22lr? Id buy one of those faster that a 22mag version. 22lr also is cheaper to shoot, smaller cartridge, and wider selection of ammo. Although I do have to admit if reviews on this are any good ill have to pick one up. A 30rd handgun just pushes all my “buy this gun” buttons.
Yeah both rounds still over penetrate and are lousy for real personal defence rounds. 9mm .40 S&W and .45 ACP are 99.99% better rounds to use.
DocGKR made that assertion and he does have a Phd, IIRC. Spend his entire career in ballistic testing. He pointed out that the 5.7 has the same “wounding potential at best” to .22lr or .22 mag.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913