H&K and ATI settle lawsuit. GSG-5 sales will cease shortly.

picture_12_8-tfb-tm

The lawsuit between ATI and H&K has been settled. Ed reports …

Production and importation of the original design GSG-5 ceased as of Oct, 8, 2009 with
the signing of the agreement. The remaining inventory now in the USA can be sold by
ATI, all distributors and dealers. ATI currently has GSG-5′s in stock.

Read the full press release over at at Ed’s blog.

The GSG-5. If you want one, buy it NOW.
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Steve Johnson

Founder and Dictator-In-Chief of TFB. A passionate gun owner, a shooting enthusiast and totally tacti-uncool. Favorite first date location: any gun range. Steve can be contacted here.


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  • MattCFII

    They seemed to have really strong case and they seemed determine to fight this according to their last press release on their site that discussed how it could effect all MP5 stuff including accessories and airsoft. They seem to have folded fast.

    I wonder if the deal is for ATI to make H&Ks version now instead of Umarex…

  • jdun1911

    I don’t know how the hell HK can get away with these kind of lawsuits. Their patents ran out a long time ago and they themselves copies other designs.

  • Mmathers

    I guess the $500 question is whether or not the umarex clone will be better or worse buil quality than the gsg5. Since the gsg5 is compatible with all the airsoft stocks, ponying up for a gsg5 now may be a better way for the tacticool set to lock in “the devil they know”.

    Perhaps someone with an umarex colt m4 can comment: are the front handguards and rear stocks replaceable?

    I know all the upper/lower bits on the 22lr aren’t ar15 compatible.

    -mm

  • Carl

    I really don’t think the most important feature of the GSG-5 are the MP5 looks. Any well-performing .22 cal submachinegun-style rifle/plinker will probably sell pretty well, even if it is not based on some well known full size/military weapon.

    And ditching the requirement to build it like an existing rifle gives you more freedom to optimize function and/or value.

  • Mmathers

    After reading all the comments on the build quality of the colt/umarex n4 on this blog (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/01/13/colt-umarex-m4-carbine-22-tactical-rimfire-ar-15/), I’m strongly suspecting that a gsg5 may be the better choice here.

    Sigh, I thought I was done with my gun purchases this month…

    -g

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

      Mmathers, you are never done with gun purchases this month … I don’t think that anyone who reads this blog ever is ;)

  • http://nope Advocate

    I’ve been seeing more horror stories regarding the Umarex than i ever saw in regards to the GSG-5

    hell, even the SELLERS aren’t pushing this thing as a quality gun.
    http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=140641947

  • http://nope Advocate
  • Lance

    H&K are the NAZIs of th gun world they screw up everyone to make a profit.

  • Matt Groom

    H&K was founded by Nazis. F^#% H&K!

  • CMathews

    Depending on the price I may still pick up an umarex mp7 cuz they Are so damn tacticool lol. As a plus, I could use my airaoft parts on it yay!

  • http://www.weaponscache.com Matt

    Let the price gouging commence.

  • Vak

    @advocate, these links are absolutely hilarious.

    Also, does anyone know anything about the quality of the .22 S&W AR-clones ? Are they any better than the umarex/colt ones ?

  • seeker_two

    Once again, HK lives up to their company motto….

    “You suck….and we hate you”….

  • Fred

    I’ve seen favorable reviews about the Smith, and I have one on order right now. Both of the ones I’ve handled felt very solid, no play between the upper and lower, the bolt holds open on an empty mag, the ping-pong paddle is fully functional, and to top it all off, the freakin’ safety works the right way! Really looking forward to mine showing up in the next couple months.

    My GSG-5 is a lot of fun too, and even though I haven’t even gotten around to sending the bolt body back in to get the ejector riveted, it still runs pretty well. Not 100%, but hell, my 10/22 seems to be just as reliable (it loves to stovepipe).

    I’m still standing by my thoughts of this just being H&K’s underhanded way to clear the market of competitors before theirs come out. Just makes me feel better when I take my Cetme out to the range.

  • jdun1911

    Don’t forget that you’re a looser if you don’t load your rounds backward in the magazine. That’s the HK way. That’s how a true operator does it.

    It’s not a joke. HK do load the rounds backward in the magazine.

    http://rpginn.com/xgalleryx/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=37355&g2_serialNumber=1

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

      jdun1911, its a feature. I bet you shoot cartridges that were loaded back to front in your AR-15s ;)

  • http://www.illuminatingreality.com Brando

    Damn, bought one yesterday – good timing :)

  • Vak

    Thanks Fred.

  • J.C.

    Here is whats gonna happen…..
    1. H&K force their hand and get ATI to cease production and importation of the GSG 5. (done)

    2. H&K will soon introduce their own .22 caliber version of the MP 5 and market it to the civilian population and law enforcement agencies.

    Its all about the money in the big business world. Now that H&K know how popular they are with the general population (as plinkers and paintball/airsoft players) they can safely produce and market it.

    My question is: will the H&K version be 800-1200 USD as is everything else marked H&K or COLT?

  • jdun1911

    I have no problem with companies that defend their property rights but once those patents expired it is open to the general public for use and copy.

    Again I don’t know how HK can get away with it.

    You don’t see Colt suing other AR .22lr maker. Why, because the patent that govern .22lr AR has expired and Colt never own it in the first place.

    I don’t know how much HK version will cost but I won’t be surprise if it is over $2k.

  • MattCFII

    But why did ATI settle so quickly on their flagship product when obviously H&K was on shaky grounds for winning a lawsuit that had even more merit that they seemed determined to fight? The HK416 is far closer to the Colt design than the airsoft shell (albeit like a nice airsoft) with a .22 in it GSG-5 that shared nothing but looks with the MP5.

    I really think that either they got a bad judge, bad/too expensive lawyer that made it obvious they were going to loose and they cut early to avoid a large monterary settlement against them OR H&K said you suck but we’ll let you produce it for us since we can make a few hundred dollars in pure profit by putting our name on the side. It would be the win-win for both sides besides for us the buyers since support for the GSG-5 would then come from H&K. Has anybody actually confirmed that H&K and Umarex have a contract for a .22 MP5?

  • http://nope Advocate

    i really really think its important to remember that they sued over trademark and trade dress infringement… not patent infringement. Very different things.

    Add to that the fact that ATI openly claimed it to be a MP5 lookalike:

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/%3CFA%3EJaws/gsg5pk.jpg

    and
    add to that the fact that HK can absolutely smother them in legal fees and you have a no win situation for ATI.

    love them or hate them i feel HK had the legal right to pursue this course.

    ….i’m just glad i got my gsg-5 long ago ;)

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

      Advocate, very good point regarding MP5 claims!

  • Carl

    So, how many people bought a GSG-5 thinking they were getting a MP5? I’m guessing zero.

    Clearly there must exist a risk of consumer confusion if laws against creating similar-looking products are to be legitimate.

  • cameron

    *sigh*

    Is this the legacy of H&K? Make really interesting guns but don’t make a version that is legal w/ out NFA paperwork?

    -G36

    -MP5

    They would make a FORTUNE if they sold a semi version of these guns stateside in their native caliber. If they can justify selling the SL8 then why not a civvie MP5 or G36? People want a GSG-5 b/c it is about as close as they will get to a real MP5. It just blows my mind that they are either a) unwilling or b)too stupid to do this. Plenty of guns come to the USA as imports that are “just as evil” and “just as dangerous”. So what are they afraid of?? Really this is insane.

    …and in the meantime they bother to market the 416. WTF. WHO CARES. GIVES US WHAT WE WANT H& K.

    /rant off, LOL

  • Bob

    I just bought a GDG-5 SD today and saw this lawsuit when I got home. So what is the bottom line? When GSG-5 sales go away will the one I bought increase in value? My dealer has one left and I am thinking of getting it as an investment. Is this a good idea?

  • joem

    i’m fed up with-people-saying that the gsg-5 is not an mp5 clone! What you think if hk made a .22 version it would have delayed blow back, fluted chamber??? No they woundnt its a .22-it doesnt need delayed blow back or-fluted chamber nor does the orginal 9mm mp5 need them either it just excause to flog it at totally over rated price! If you think you can use the same 9mm bolt, springs etc in a .22 then you know jackshit about firearms!

    An hk mp5 with single shot only trigger pack (uk police have these) is just an 9mm carbine with very good accuracy
    Thus the gsg-5 is a clone is that regard…..its very accurate, relable and pretty well bult….(ok its not and will never be hk strong but wont fall apart either.) Thats what an mp5 is about

    Ps glock s

    Ps

  • Jackd

    Here in Asia, the GSG5 is selling well, the gunshops are selling double the Europe SRPrices. Most by the stocks for posterity, since the real MP5 here costs 5 times the Europes SRP’s.

    The GSG5SD version, is a downright rip-off since the silencer can is badly designed, barrel is loosely fitted to the gun, the barrel thickness is thinner that airgun barrels here in Manila. The Airsoft knock offs have better detail that GSG5 SD’s features.

    I will wait for the H&K version, the GSG appears as a novelty here. unit a better MP5 version comes along.

    Cheers

    Jackd

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

      Jackd, where in Asia can you buy a GSG5?

      • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

        Ah, Philippines, of course. I can’t think of any other Asian country where they would be legal.

  • cbunix23

    I’m betting the lawsuit was based on H&Ks design patents. They can last indefinitely. This is why no one else can have a soda pop bottle with the same shape as the Coke ‘hour glass’ bottle.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_patent

    In the United States, a design patent is a patent granted on the ornamental design of a functional item. Design patents are a type of industrial design right. Ornamental designs of jewelry, furniture, beverage containers (see Fig. 1) and computer icons are examples of objects that are covered by design patents.

    A similar concept, a registered design can be obtained in other countries. In Japan, South Korea and Hungary, industrial designs are registered after performing an official novelty search. In Europe, one needs to only pay an official fee and meet other the formal requirements for registration (e.g. Community design at OHIM, Germany, France, Spain).
    For the member states of WIPO, cover is afforded by registration at WIPO and examination by the designated member states in accordance with the Geneva Act of the Hague Agreement).

    A US design patent covers the ornamental design for an object having practical utility. An object with a design that is substantially similar to the design claimed in a design patent cannot be made, used, copied or imported into the United States. The copy does not have to be exact for the patent to be infringed. It only has to be substantially similar.

    ———

    Notice that last quoted sentence.

  • Nick

    I work at a hunting and the likes store up in NY. For firearms, we have possibly the largest selection and quantity available for the area, much more than the local Gander Mountain. I’ve seen so many of the GSG-5′s sold, and many variants of it. The rate at which they flew off the shelves was amazing, if H&K simply made ATI pay a royalty, H&K would be swimming in cash, moreso then now. But I know nothing on the legalities and the suit in general, so maybe they did offer this instead of an outright cease of manufacturing.

  • Wolfprophet

    “Matt Groomon 18 Oct 2009 at 1:36 pm link comment

    H&K was founded by Nazis. F^#% H&K!”

    You’re an idiot. H&K was founded in 1949. Which last I checked, was four years after World War II. Or maybe I’m wrong, maybe WWII lasted into 1953 and H&K was founded as an off shoot to DWM. Oh wait, that’s probably just a reasonable explanation in your mind. Anyways. Enough of my sarcasm and Dickishness.

    I do think it’s some serious BS that H&K sued them, they should have just demanded a cut of the profits instead and then sued them if they refused. Being unemployed, I’ll be lucky as all hell if I can afford a GSG-5 by the time they’re all mysteriously gone and locked away in private hands. Hell, I was lucky enough to get ahold of some ammunition for my M44 Mosin carbine.

  • Bob

    Yes, since you are unemployed we all owe you a weapon. Hmm… when I was laid off I changed jobs and buy my own. Go figure.

    By the way, the GSG-5 has lots of fun accessories. We have bought (EARNED BY WORKING) everything we could find. Front triple rail, front hand grip, bipod, recoil buffer, rear stud for pistol configuration… it’s a really FUN gun!!.

    Get a job, maybe some school… enjoy! (I started as an Army Private at $78/mo in 1970. I went to school, worked hard. I don’t whine and complain anymore. Try school and achievement… be happy!)

  • http://www.civiliantacticalweapons.com Jessie Indracusin

    Thought I would mention this to everyone who reads this site. I was at the Shot Show 2010 in Vegas and went to both the GSG-5/ATI booth (very small) and the Umarex booth. Umarex has HK logos in their booth and have the full licenses for an MP5 clone. All the comments made about Airsoft, etc. I have no comments on since I am strictly a Tactical Firearms reviewer and own about 9 different H&K Firearms (including a Civilian Legal UMP 45 conversion that cost me about $3200 after the original HK USC, conversion parts, ATF Part Counts and optics.

    The GSG-5 guys had some new re-designed GSG-5 guns in their booth. I don’t know the exact nature of how they appear to be getting around the lawsuit with HK, but it seems the new design they are doing is different enough compared to the original series.

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

      Jessie, You are correct. I will be writing a post in the coming week on how they got around the lawsuit.

  • Kevin

    Bob: Wolf never said the world owed him a new gun because he is unemployed, but merely expressing dissatisfaction with the fact that a gun affordable to a student worker is being de-railed by a company who has a reputation for over priceing guns ( very very cool overpriced guns of course). you being laid-off makes gives me the idea that you have professional specialty making you a commoditie(sp?) hence you are able to aquire a job with less effort.
    For the student however, as resturant and retail sales are down its a bit harder to find employment, after all just about anyone can do any resturant or retail job and so they go for the older more experienced workers since they are seen as less of a risk(training costs money after all).
    I didnt read his post as saying “please give me a gun for free” more like “damn how am i gonna find a job, pay my bills and then save enough money before they have sold every unit”
    As for my hopes:
    Hopefully the Umarex guns will be in a similar 400+/- range, ive wanted a Mp-5/G3/Hk33 type gun ever since i read rainbow six. and i hope the remade ATI guns can give umarex some competion thats how the free market works.

    Forgive my grammatical errors, but most of all forgive those who use them as slander, in cheap, quality, carbines we pray ka-bang.

  • http://gsg5sd ONIL GONZALEZ

    Whats the deal with the GSG-5SDs suppresor i was informed by my gun dealer that the ATF is banning them. AND that i have to send my suppresor to get it modified anyone else heard about this ?

  • Bob

    Here’s the official story from ATI:

    To all retail customers:

    On January 2010 American Tactical Imports Inc received official notification from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and explosives that the original barrel shroud (aka: fake suppressor) supplied with your GSG 5 SD model must be replaced. It has been determined that this shroud is regulated under the National Firearms Act. American Tactical will provide a replacement shroud at no charge for each GSG 5 SD model sold or currently in inventory.
    Consumers in possession of a GSG 5 SD model with the original shroud in place on the firearm are now in violation of the NFA. To avoid continued violation of the NFA, ATI asks that all persons in possession obtain a replacement shroud as soon as possible. We anticipate arrival of the new shrouds to begin by the middle of February 2010.
    IMPORTANT: THE ORIGINAL SD MODEL SHROUD MUST BE RETURNED ACOMPANIED BY THE FIREARM SERIAL NUMBER BEFORE A REPLACEMENT SHROUD IS ISSUED. THE DIAMETER OF THE SD SHROUD IS 1-9/16”. DO NOT RETURN THE SMALLER CARBINE SHROUD.
    WHAT TO DO:
    If possible return your old shroud to the dealer where purchased and show him this notice. The shroud will be returned to ATI along with a list of serial numbers from the guns that the shrouds were removed. ATI will send replacements to the dealer for pick up at your convenience; ATI will be sending replacements as fast as logistics allow. If your dealer is out of business or difficult to reach, or you purchased your gun used, from a consumer, return the shroud directly by US mail or UPS to American Tactical Imports Inc. 100 Airpark Drive Rochester, NY 14624.
    PLEASE TRY NOT TO CALL US. We will provide comprehensive information on our web site American Tactical Imports , and AR15.Com or by e-mail to atiexchange@americantactical.us
    REMEMBER, INCLUDE THE FIREARM SERIAL NUMBER WITH EACH SHROUD OR A REPLACEMENT WILL NOT BE ISSUED.
    This action IS NOT being instituted through any fault and is strictly due to NFA compliance. American Tactical will assume the responsibility to satisfy the requirements in an effort to minimize the impact on our customers and protect your investment.
    We at American Tactical Imports Inc. sincerely apologize for any inconvenience caused by this unfortunate situation.

    Sincerely,
    Anthony DiChario
    President C.E.O. retailcandoc.021210

  • Larry Walsh

    Just purchased GSG-5 PK 22 cal. What’s the difference between PK & SD ? Today, while cruising gun stores I found a used GSG-5 PK for 350.00. Looked in like new condition. Should I go back & buy it. I am a newbie at this type of weapon. Old 1911 guy. Also awaiting paper work to convert to an SBR. I would appreciate any info. you can throw my way. Regards, Larry.