The Ur-PDW: Lange Pistole 08 Luger at C&Rsenal

@Mazryonh If it had automatic fire, it would actually be a submachine gun, not an ancestor.

@Mazryonh You'll note I called it the "great-uncle" of the SMG.

@ostiariusalpha I thought one of the defining features of a PDW was the ability to provide full-auto suppressive fire for close encounters. Kind of like the following infamous video of someone doing mag dumps with a full-auto Glock:

https://www.youtube.com/wat...

The troops facing the LP08 likely thought it was a machine gun from the rapid fire sounds before actually getting close enough to see it. It certainly would be better for CQB than the bolt-action rifles of WWI at any rate.

@Mazryonh I used to think somewhat the same thing, but those misperceptions are shaped largely by the subguns, such as the FN P90, HK MP7, and B&T MP9, that were developed to fulfill a NATO requirement from the late 80's (AC/225-D/296) which requested the development of a new high performance cartridge which could be used in a submachine gun and semi-auto pistol; select-fire is not a necessary defining feature for a PDW at all. In actuality, the semi-automatic M1911A1 and M9 were both classified as PDWs by the U.S. Army. According to them a personal defense weapon is defined as an individual carry weapon fulfilling the role of defending one's person in emergency situations while being unobstructive to one's regular duties. Both the LP.08 and the M1 Carbine meet that requirement just fine without select-fire capabilities. But, if you're going to use a PDW, it's really nice if it happens to be a submachine gun.

@ostiariusalpha Sure, a handgun might be called a PDW in a sense, but handguns are among the hardest firearm class to effectively use (especially under stress) and train for. At least a select-fire SMG has a lot more applications (such as CQB) than a handgun does and is easier to use accurately.

@Mazryonh Not just in a sense, PDW is actually what they were called in official documents when being used as a defensive weapon by troops not in direct combat roles. The SMG is definitely more versatile, but a pistol is more convenient for the 99.999% of the time that you don't need it. Both my grandfathers carried 1911s in WWII and neither was endeared to it. My paternal grandfather was an army electrician and was only shot at one time while doing field service, he did make it clear that he would have greatly preferred an M1 Carbine at that moment.

@ostiariusalpha It sounds like PDW is a bit of a loose term then, if handguns can be called that.

There are PDWs that have been designed to be holstered like a large handgun, such as the MP7. Designs like that should be easier to carry around than a larger SMG.

Sounds like your paternal grandfather would have appreciated the ease of aiming over longer distances that the M1 carbine had over the M1911 too, which is something a PDW SMG can also offer.

@Mazryonh As it is a role, instead of a class of weapon (like SMG, LMG, HMG), it is inherently more flexible in what qualifies. Though I should point out that even AC/225-D/296 still specifies the use of pistols as personal defense weapons, and these pistols have all been designed (if not necessarily created): FN's 5.7x28mm has the Five-seveN pistol, HK's 4.6x30mm was to use the P46 Universal Combat Pistol, and 6.5x25mm CBJ is designed to work in any 9mm +P+ rated pistol with just a barrel swap.

My paternal grandfather used his weapon appropriately at least, to beat a hasty retreat. But he was never happy that there had only been some basic training in the pistol's use, with no subsequent practice except for his little misadventure. He was also an avid hunter even before the war, and was very familiar with shouldering a rifle, so the M1C would have been a better fit anyways. Another gripe he had was that you couldn't quickly and easily change the holster position for a pistol, which could be inconvenient if it was trying to snag wire while you were on a ladder. The M1C, in contrast, could be slung any which way that was comfortable or even hung off body, but within reach.

@ostiariusalpha Thanks for the clarification on he reference. It seems that most PDW manufacturers (with the current exception of KAC and their PDW platform) have designed their PDW models to share ammunition with a companion handgun. That kind of paradigm might be interesting to pursue for other manufacturers in the future.

It seems that the "lack of training" problem with regards to military handguns is something your paternal grandfather shared with today's military forces. But perhaps the US armed forces back then hadn't realized how much harder it is to use a handgun as opposed to a long gun. By the way, if a pistol holster proves uncomfortable or otherwise undesirable for a modern US armed forces member, is s/he allowed to obtain another model? Your paternal grandfather might have appreciated that option.

@Mazryonh They are not allowed to do so; neither now nor back then.

@ostiariusalpha Once again, "standard issue" proves to be "one size fits most." At least in the civilian world there's bound to be a holster that fits your needs.

Given the complaints troops had about the M1 Carbine's reported lack of stopping power in the Korean War, perhaps your paternal grandfather might not have found the carbine so useful after all, had he repeatedly gotten into serious firefights with one.

@Mazryonh Anyone that has made a serious study of the .30 Carbine would tell you that it has just as much stopping power as any pistol magnum shooting a ball round. Its propellant, WW296, loses some power in bitterly cold weather, but it still has enough punch to penetrate heavy clothing and reach vital organs (certainly better than what .45 ACP could manage). So, shot placement is key, and bad shot placement by soldiers that were not particularly great marksmen explains a lot about any lack of stopping power during the Korean War or any other combat it was in. If my grandfather had been in a position where he was going to get in more frequent and serious firefights, he would have had some questions about his assignment with his superiors and probably asked to be assigned with a defensive detail armed with Garands and BARs. But he knew that he wasn't in such a position, and that his one incident was an aberration, so any firearm heavier than the M1C would have been obtrusive. An ideal weapon that weighed less than 7 lbs., had soft recoil, and fired a round that had better lethality & range than .30 Carbine would have to wait another 50 years.