Britain’s Most ‘Criminally’ Used Gun

A 9mm Beretta 9000S was used in 20 UK shootings

Back in July, UK armed police launched a dawn raid on a home in Kirby, near Liverpool. On searching the house they discovered a hidden pistol, a Beretta 9000S. A suspect, 24-year old, Adam Bigley, was arrested and has this week been sentenced to seven years in prison for possession of a prohibited firearm.

What makes the pistol that was seized so interesting is that forensic examination revealed it had been used in 19 separate shootings over 7 years. Making it Britain’s most ‘criminally’ used individual firearm.

British firearms law prohibits the general ownership of semi-auto pistols chambered in anything larger than .22LR, so while Bigley couldn’t be directly linked to the series of shootings the Beretta had been used in he could be prosecuted for illegal ownership of a prohibited firearm.

Merseyside armed police raid Bigley’s home in July 2017 (Liverpool Echo)

The Beretta 9000S, in production between 2000 and 2006, has the distinction of being Beretta’s first polymer framed pistol. Chambered in 9x19mm with a 12 round magazine the pistol is illegal to own in Britain, unless the owner has a Section Five Firearms Certificate.

Meresyside Police searched Bigley’s parents home following an investigation into a late night shooting in the suburb of Kirkby, during which four rounds were fired into a house from a car. Police discovered the pistol stashed behind a toilet in Bigley’s bathroom, stored next to some shower gel and deodorant cans.

Bigley stashed the Beretta behind a toilet in his bathroom (Liverpool Echo)

Forensic tests showed that the Beretta’s frame mounted safety had DNA residue from four individuals, including Bigley. The 9000S had had its serial number ground off and was found with a magazine loaded with four rounds. Bigley, with seven previous convictions for no less than 15 offences including public disorder and burglary, admitted to possessing a prohibited firearm but claimed to be looking after it for someone.

In recent years the UK has seen an increase in gun-related crime but while the number of crimes involving handguns in the UK has risen, with 2,685 offences in 2016-17, it remains a fraction of that experienced in the US.

Merseyside Police said they had zero tolerance for criminals using or storing deadly weapons. Detective inspector Elaine Coulter said: “Whether they intend on using them or not, looking after or storing them makes it easier for other criminals to commit serious crime.” Bigley was found guilty at Liverpool Crown Court and sentenced to six years and nine months in prison.





Matthew Moss is a British historian specialising in small arms development and military history. He has written for a variety of publications in both the US and UK he also runs www.historicalfirearms.info, a blog that explores the history, development and use of firearms. Matthew is also co-founder of www.armourersbench.com, a new video series on historically significant small arms.


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  • Disgruntled

    At least the baddies were using the safety.

  • Disgruntled

    At least the baddies were using the safety.

  • CA

    It looks like it was designed by a walruss.

    • GaryOlson

      Using a 9000 makes you flap around and bark like a walrus. Crappy trigger, clumsy ergonomics. Criminals using a crappy gun, who’da thunk.

    • Dr. Longfellow Buchenrad

      When you pull the trigger, instead of going “Bang!” is says “Goo Goo Ga Joob.”

    • ozzallos .

      koo koo ca-choo.

  • Ratcraft

    Moral of the story, hide your guns better.

  • Grant

    He should have just thrown acid in someone’s face, he probably would have gotten a shorter sentence.

    • ozzallos .

      Or drove over them with a Peace Truck™

  • PK

    “…while the number of crimes involving handguns in the UK has risen, with 2,685 offences in 2016-17, it remains a fraction of that experienced in the US.”

    US pop 323,995,528
    UK pop 64,430,428

    Of course it’s a fraction – I’d expect it to be the fraction 1/5th, based on population.

    All else being equal, I’d expect the US to have about five times as many offenses, depending on definition of course. All is not equal, especially in terms of laws, but it’s an important item to note.

    • Nicks87

      Thanks for pointing that out. Some people will use every opportunity to promote America’s gun violence myth.

    • kyphe

      This is kind of apples to oranges. A firearm under UK law is any barreled weapon that can discharge shot or bullet by any means. Most UK firearm offenses are simple possession of something the government classifies as a firearm even air rifles over a certain PSI, carrying a replica is also classed as a firearms offense. Statistics on US firearm crime tend to focus on incidents of firearm use not simple illegal possession of a gun shaped object. In terms of firearm death the UK there was about 2 firearm deaths per million people per year from all sources average over the past 10 years that we have stats for. About two thirds being suicide and one quarter being homicide and the rest either accidental or unknown. In the US it is over 100 deaths per million people over that same period so over 50 times more from all sources. Interestingly the number of homicides is also 25% of the total.

      • PK

        Interesting! I’ll be looking forward to watching how the present (and recent past) shift in demographics of the UK changes things, as well.

      • Marcus D.

        What is the sociopathy that compels Britain to declare that self-defense is beyond the pale, murder in fact? It boggles the (typical American) mind; it seems so anti-Darwinian, the epitome of self-inflicted societal suicide.

        • Peter Nissen

          Da Comrade! Welcome to Australia where self defence and the defence of one’s own property is “illegal” and IF a property owner does defend his own property against invasion – WILL be charged under current Australian Law. Aust Police advise if your property is invaded – to evacuate immediately and call Triple 0 (in Aust case)!

        • Geoff Timm

          Remember in the US of A “We the People” ARE the government, we are all Kings and Queens. In GB they are the cattle of the Crown (Used to be the Monarch, now the Prime Minister [well sort of] at least the Queen had some ties to the people, but that responsibility is long gone). So all those people in the UK and former parts of same, are just animals of little value to their owners. Geoff Who notes in the US of A we have failed to educate three generations about Power and RESPONSIBILITY!

          • ostiariusalpha

            Regardless of the Crown’s attitude towards everyday British citizens, the firearm laws of the UK were chosen by its voters and their elected representatives. The majority have chosen to live in enforced disarmament, and are seemingly pleased with the result.

          • jcitizen

            Violent crime has slowly been on the rise every since 2000 in the UK. Just do a google search and it is on many sites that have good reputations for telling the truth, Like the BBC.

          • The Forty ‘Twa

            A lot of things classified as a violent crime really aren’t violent crimes at all. It makes me wonder how they arrive at that conclusion sometimes (stalking is classified as a violent crime, as is harrassment, neglect of children and a whole host of things that might not necessarily involve any form of violence).

            I like the US definition. Walk up to somebody in the street, punch them in the face and provided you don’t cause them enough harm it isn’t a violent crime even though most people would probably agree that clocking somebody in the puss is a violent crime! Not so over here sadly…

            As violence without injury makes up about 60% of violent crime in E&W but wouldn’t be recorded as violent crime in the US we could probably put a good dent in our figures by following that approach.

          • Carl_N_Brown

            I don’t know about your US, but in my US just a week ago a guy was arrested for assault — for spitting on a guy at a protest. Drawing back a fist is assault, landing a blow is assault and battery. Walking up to someone on the street and punching them in the face would land me in Kingsport, Tennessee jail.

          • James Hershey

            If you do not read the newspaper you’re uninformed.
            If you read the newspaper, you are misinformed. (Mark Twain)

          • James Smith

            Wow, just like pre-WWII Germany.

        • The Forty ‘Twa

          You could shoot somebody with an illegal firearm in a situation where your life was being threatened by that person and not be convicted for killing them as that would be justifiable even if you were using an illegally held firearm.

          By way of example, a few years ago now a bloke shot up a pub and was then pursued by an armed police officer who was engaged in surveillance duty. The bloke shot at the armed officer who returned fire. The bloke was charged with attempting to murder the officer but was acquitted at trial as his defence was that he was defending himself from somebody he thought to be trying to kill him (man in plain clothes with a gun, nothing to identify them as LE). He was convicted of some lesser offences though.

          Quite a bit further back, Kenneth Noye stabbed and killed a detective engaged in surveillance of him and was again acquitted as he successfully argued self defence.

        • Steve_7

          The law specifically recognizes self-defence, you’re just not allowed to own weapons for that purpose, although you can own some types of sword I suppose.

          • Marcus D.

            As I understand it–and please correct me if I am wrong–the law allows defense with weapons that are less than or no more than equal to the weapons used by the aggressor; more powerful weapons will trigger a criminal complaint. So if the baddies are armed, you can use your licensed shotgun, but if they are not, then it is murder. I’ve heard about an exception for swords, which for some reason didn’t make it into the modern criminal code.

          • Steve_7

            You’re a bit out-of-date, the Criminal Law Act 1967 introduced this principle of “proportional” force but it caused so many silly convictions that the Home Office had to come up with new guidance for prosecutors, then the prosecutors said it was too vague so they amended the Act and it makes it much harder to bring charges unless grossly disproportionate force is used. The Act is such a mess now. But in Britain they’re too scared to trust a jury so everything has to be spelled out.

          • The Forty ‘Twa

            Juries are not trusted with good reason it must be said!

        • RetiredSOFguy

          They aren’t sovereign individuals, but property of the crown.

          And don’t worry–lots of good folks there. That’s why every time I work with the Brits I keep trying to get them to immigrate here when they retire.

          • jcitizen

            One of my best friends from the UK did exactly that – his primary reason for immigrating was the 2nd Amendment freedoms he enjoyed while visiting us. Now he’s happily married and doing great.

      • Komrad

        you also have to consider vastly different reporting standards
        in Britain, they don’t count a murder unless there is a conviction
        you have to look at a lot of other pieces of data to get a clearer picture, and you still can’t do a 1:1 comparison, even after playing with that additional data

        • The Forty ‘Twa

          Komrad, that isn’t how it works at all. From the explanation of the Homicide Index, which is where the figures are published for E&W:

          “When the police initially record an offence as a homicide it remains classified as such unless the police or courts decide that a less offence, or no offence, took place.”

          Basically, what that says is it isn’t just convictions that count towards the figures. Police can’t just reclassify it because they haven’t solved it either, that can only happen when there is evidence to suggest that the relevant crime was not committed (a number of suicides may initially be recorded as homicides for example). The number of homicides initially recorded that end up being removed is usually very low, typically less than 20 per year and in single figures for some years.

          The homicide index figures include those for which a conviction has occurred AND those that are sub judice or unsolved. It also counts the individual victims rather than the number of killers. When the homicide figures are published each year, the majority of cases have not resulted in a conviction (usually around 60% have not for a given year). To suggest that only convictions are counted (or the number of killers) is completely and utterly untrue.

          • jcitizen

            I read an article in the BBC that crime reporting in the UK was fairly a mess, and it was hard to tell just what figures you could use if you are investigating statistics for crime reporting.

          • The Forty ‘Twa

            It certainly was in E&W, less so in the other parts of the UK.

            Depending on who you ask forces were either being sensible and not recording lots of rubbish that should never have been recorded in the first place or weren’t bothering to record things that they thought they couldn’t solve (in reality a bit of both).

            The mantra now is CRIME EVERYTHING which results in recorded crime shooting up. In the past you could turn up to a fight outside a pub on a Friday night, have both parties shake hands and send them on their way without any hassle. Not so now. It would now need to be crimed even if the involved parties didn’t wish to have anything done about it. If the officer on the street doesn’t crime that, somebody sitting in an office somewhere will on Monday morning…

        • kyphe

          I do not know where people get this myth from but it is totally untrue. A coroners inquest decides if a death is a homicide regardless of any conviction or even arrest.

          • The Forty ‘Twa

            A homicide is recorded before that, the police record it initially. The record might be altered based on the findings of an inquest but the recording and the inquest are distinct from one another.

          • kyphe

            What I meant to communicate in response to the claim that murders require convictions to be reported as crimes, is that even in those circumstances where the police do not prosecute anyone, have no suspects and do not record a finding of their own, the coroners verdict would still go on the UK homicide index. The coroner has immediate and primary jurisdiction over any deceased human body in England and Wales and their fundamental role is to record and determine cause of death. The police and the coroner work towards the same end from opposite sides of the event. The police generally do require the initial verdict of a coroner as part of their basic evidence gathering before proceeding with a recording of homicide, however the Police the CCP and the coroner can bring charges independently of each other.

          • The Forty ‘Twa

            The initial verdict of the coroner is NOT required before recording a homicide and indeed given the time scales built into the HOCR this would not be possible in most cases as the crime has to be recorded at the earliest opportunity and at most within 24 hours of the reporting officer deciding a crime should be recorded.

            A verdict from a coroner can be a long, long time after that so it would not be practical for the police to wait on the verdict of an inquest that would obviously fall outwith the required time period for the initial recording of the offence as you suggest. Normal practice would be to open and adjourn proceedings where the death appears to be suspicious until completion of any criminal case(s) so that obviously does not accord with what you suggest happens.

            Crime recording is essentially a decision for the police and nothing is gained by waiting for the coroner before criming it or not as it can be closed off as no crime later on if it transpires it wasn’t as it first appears.

            The coroner also can’t charge anybody with an offence. They had powers to commit people for trial in the past but they were abolished in the late 70s.

          • kyphe

            The police have up to 7 days according to HOCR rules to determine if a crime has been committed if the evidence at point of contact is not clear. If the evidence is clear, especially if the report comes from the victim with no contrary evidence, then the report is expected to be recorded within the first 24h. This is a guide to protect victim rights. After 7 days the police have two choices, first is to apply the balance of probability based of the initial evidence and determine to record or not to record. A second option (though not in every category of crime) is to ‘register’ a crime in lieu of an actual record which allows them to complete an investigation before hand and record a crime if the evidence confirms one has occurred. Now a coroners inquest is normally concluded within 6 months under the coroner inquest rules of 2013 unless their are exceptional circumstances, but when I say initial verdict I mean prior to, and pertaining to the need to hold an inquest and can be as simple as agreeing with a doctor or medical examiners report if they have no reason to believe at that time that the initial medical report is wrong.
            I was under the impression that a coroner could still bring charges against police and prison officers for death in custody but I can see I miss read that section, my apologies for the misinformation.

          • The Forty ‘Twa

            I get the feeling you are reading these things but have never had to put them into practice in real life i.e. you are not a police officer or involved in the legal profession. Would that be correct?

            Typically if we come across a body in suspicious or unexplained cicrucmstances (even if it looks like a suicide sometimes but not all the time) it is getting crimed there and then. No waiting 24 hours, no 7 day exceptions or anything like that. You don’t suffer any disadvantage by recording a crime early on and in any case it won’t be dependent on the outcome of the coroners inquest which will be held much later. Coroners aren’t really involved in crime recording in anything like the capacity you suggest.

            You are talking about reports coming from the victim and protecting victims rights when we’re talking about homicides here. Your victim is dead!

          • kyphe

            I am in the medical profession. Ofc yes the victim is dead or at least one is, that is the point I was making there.

          • The Forty ‘Twa

            As I thought. I’m sure you are good at what you do but your understanding of crime recording isn’t really correct. That said, a lot of my colleagues in the police don’t even understand it properly so God knows how anybody else is supposed to manage…

          • Carl_N_Brown

            A medical examiner in Minnesota did a limited study to answer why the discrepancy between homicides reported by the ME office and the number of murder charges brought by the district attorney’s 0ffice. Not all homicides (killing of a person by a person) are murders (criminal motive and intent). A surprising percentage were not charged because the DA decided it was self-defense. That’s not counting the grand jury, trial jury, trial judge, appellate court decisions. The ME looked only at a sample of ME office homicides not charged as murder by the DA office.

            I have repeatedly been told British murder stats are revised as court cases adjudicate cases. The homicide stats don’t change.

          • kyphe

            There will always be a discrepancy between the numbers of reported homicides or murders and the numbers of criminal charges, as to press charges requires not only a crime to have happened but also a suspect with sufficient evidence to prosecute. If the state believes a person has been murdered then the crime would stay on record regardless of any individual being acquitted. Just because that person could not be convicted of a crime does not mean a crime did not happen. The prosecution service or a trial may find that a person was not murdered by anyone not just the current suspect and I would expect that to be reflected in the records. However the key part here is that the status of the crime and the status of the suspect are independent of each other. Think of it in terms of car theft, if your car is gone it is gone. The person the police thought stole your car may walk free from court but your car is still stolen. The crime does not cease to exist because of an acquittal and the crime is still on record unless it is found in a towing yard because you parked in a no park zone.

      • Anomanom

        Part of the US numbers are inflated by the problem that Americans have gained a propensity to, rather than just shoot the person they have a grudge with, shoot that person *and* anyone else who happens to be within a 100m radius.

        • Concerned Third Party

          That is because a vast majority of such shootings are gang related, and killing the other banger and his homies for disrespectin’ you in yo’ run-down ramshackle impoverished ‘hood’ is cause for a mass execution, including innocent bystanders shot in their own homes by stray bullets.

      • Steve_7

        The number of firearm-related deaths are not higher now than they were prior to the handgun ban, am I the only person who has bothered to read the statistics? The rate of firearm-related crime went up generally after the ban for 5 years then dropped to a lower rate, but all crime went down generally.

        • kyphe

          I do read the stats and I am glad to meet someone else who does. I am well aware that the firearm homicide rate peaked in 2002-2003 and dropped to a low in 2009 and bounced up and down there till 2012. But against the continuing general drop in crime and even violent crime the number of crimes with weapons both blades and firearms has been recently rising to the point it is above those rates in the early 90s. But to be fair that is not hard given how low UK firearm crime actually was then. And ofc this is where firearms were used in an act not the technical crime of having a gun hidden in a bible in your bookshelf like that priest did in his church. Which should be expected to rise with more restrictive legislation.

    • James Hershey

      If the “bad guys” in GB don’t have guns, everyone can get a knife. A knife works just fine if the victim is unarmed. So what is the number and percentage of knife attacks in GB?

      • American Patriot

        Actually who needs a gun in the UK when Apparently it’s not even a misdemeanor to own an Illegal muslim to do your dirty deeds for you, all you have to do is loan em your car…..

        • Concerned Third Party

          That’s because Muslims are above the law in the UK. Rotherham and everything else like it has proven this.

      • ostiariusalpha

        Knives are also heavily regulated in the U.K., there was a chef that had his knife set confiscated, and there’s a political movement to ban all swords and large kitchen knives with pointy tips.

        • James Hershey

          You’re not serious?

          • ostiariusalpha

            Super serial, dood.

          • Markius Fox

            Yup, they have amnesty bins for any “unwanted knives”. Give it a quick search.

          • pismopal

            Read U.K. Weapon laws. You cannot carry anything remotely resembling a weapon including ordinary tools if you actually use it as a weapon including for self defense. Criminals don’t worry about the laws there either but if you are simply a guy worried about safety you are SOL.

          • James Hershey

            I’ve carried a Swiss Army Knife. the Picknicker Model for decades. it has a 8.5 centimeter locking blade. If I landed at Heathrow would my knife be confiscated?

          • mikewest007

            Oh, but he IS serious! Ten years ago or so, even the Star Trek dweebs were forced to give up their Klingon qot’leths and dag’gers!

          • Dukeq27

            Don’t know if it’s true but I heard that too about banning pointed knives.

            Why one country is more violent or not violent is due to many factors. If you could X out certain factors such as demographics and urban violence then the crime rate considering the amount of guns in the US is low. Anecdotally I think thefts and burglary are prevalent crimes in the U.K.

    • AlDeLarge

      Technically, 900/5 is a fraction.

  • Isaac O. Lees

    Their rate of firearms crime was always lower than the US, even before the restrictions. Comparing the two nations 1:1 is an exercise in futility.

    • Harry’s Holsters

      Exactly. Lots of different social issues to be taken into account.

      • PK

        True. Most Brits seem more laid back… They do drink more, don’t they?

        • iksnilol

          Nah, it’s just if you’re going through the bother that a felony is, it’s likely to be personal. Thus bludgeoning and brutal beatings it is.

          • Nunya Bidniz

            IIRC, even in the “gun happy” U.S., you’re statistically more likely to be murdered with a claw hammer than with a handgun. And there’s no way we’d put up with the Big Brother aspects of modern England [hey, Orwell *tried* to warn them, but they ignored him & ended up the world’s most thoroughly surveilled country anyway…] It is a lovely place to visit, & I look forward with great anticipation to my return there soon [this time, I’ll be visiting a lot of WW2 museums & such; 30 odd years ago, my study abroad program had us focused on older periods of history!]

          • The Forty ‘Twa

            The vast, vast majority of CCTV cameras in the UK are in private hands at businesses, airports, shopping centres and so on. Having lived in the US I found most of the places that had CCTV in the USA and the UK to be very similar.

            If we are going to count a CCTV camera in a shop as state surveillance the US can’t be far behind!

          • AlDeLarge

            More people are bludgeoned than murdered with a rifle every year, but much more often than either are murdered with handguns. More people were struck by lightning in 2013 than murdered with a rifle of any kind, not just those evil black rifles.

        • Harry’s Holsters

          They do drink more but I found the breakdown of laid back to be similar to Americans and largely based around economic and population density related to the person’s area and profession. I also come from a small southern town and I’m using my state as the comparison.

          • James Hershey

            Comparing drunk Brits against firearms regulations and deaths is quite a reach for any kind of rational argument.
            U.S. drunk drivers killed in two years what took 10 years for Vietnam combat deaths. Seems like jungle fighting is five times safer than our freeways?
            Drunk drivers vs. War. Which is more dangerous?

          • pismopal

            I challenge that DUI death figure. Only a percentage of traffic deaths involve DUIs. Most involve HUA. One is too many but MADD people are dishonest and disruptive to the problem.

          • MG

            HUA?

          • James Hershey

            Yes there is MADD. Also there is that other organization called:
            DDAM: Drunk Drivers Against Mad Mothers.

      • Dr. Daniel Jackson

        That’s without even comparing the size of the population of the two countries.

    • Steve_7

      There are no national crime statistics prior to 1969 and no statistics for London prior to 1946 and the controls date from 1920 so it’s impossible to say. The only real statistics prior to that are Proof House statistics which indicate that the sale of handguns was very common prior to WW1, something like a half to two-thirds of what it is today in the US on a per capita basis depending on the years you’re comparing. That was a very surprising statistic when I dug it up.

      • Isaac O. Lees

        You gotta look at the coreners’ reports. The official homicide statistics are useless because they’re based on convictions, not police reports.

        • Steve_7

          (a) that’s wrong as explained in the HO homicide statistics and (b) it’s irrelevant, the vast majority of armed crime is not homicide and as I said, there are no crime statistics from the period prior to the introduction of controls, so no comparison is possible.

        • kyphe

          This is not true, we have discussed this at length above. Homicide statistics in the UK are not based on convictions. You are talking about British media conventions on reporting active cases not the UK crime index. When someone is on trial the media will generally refer to a killing or death not a murder or homicide as not to influence the perceptions of the readers against the accused under the rights to a fair trial. But a homicide is recorded in the UK crime index and the office of national statistics regardless of convictions.

  • 4 separate DNA samples on the safety. Damn.

    Either the safety is particularly aggressive, or DNA testing has really come a long way.

    • Concerned Third Party

      the ribbing on the slide gathers epithelials quite well. PCR can get full profiles from that trace and has been able to for ~20 years now.

  • datimes

    I read recently that criminals in the UK typically don’t own guns. When a firearm is needed to commit a crime they go to their gun guy and rent it. The gun is then returned to the owner when not needed.

    • Dr. Longfellow Buchenrad

      Thats an interesting business model

      • crackedlenses

        Firearms are probably a rare and expensive commodity; a rental system makes sense.

        • iksnilol

          + a risky commodity.

          • Geoff Timm

            Not so much, in the US of A the person possessing the weapon could be convicted of any crime committed with that weapon. Including being executed for murder. Geoff Who notes it’s tough to get yourself executed in the US of A, despite the foreign media fake news.

          • iksnilol

            Thus, risky. Better to have all the heat on one person (the guy you rent the gun from).

          • crackedlenses

            A commodity nonetheless, and often desirable in certain…lifestyles and fields of work.

    • Jim_Macklin

      That happens in the US too. Often guns are left, loaded and unsecured under a bush in a public park until it is used for a hour or less for a liquor store robbery or even a murder.
      Most drug pushers also trade in guns. Guns are stolen from rail freight shipments, UPS trucks and retail gun stores. Despite federal gun laws and state gun laws for at least 80 years, few guns can be traced to the user. The gun was sold at retail in 1952 and sold or stolen in a household burglary in 1960. Guns can only be traced to the maker to the first dealer or distributor. After that it is who is caught with a contraband gun. The only laws more useless than “gun laws” are laws against premarital sex.

      • Marcus D.

        The inability to trace “crime guns” to their possessor at the time of commission, particularly when “time to crime” is measured in years from the time of original purchase demonstrates the inherent inefficacy of gun registration or “microstamping” in solving crime. Few crimes are committed by the original purchaser, so many man hours “tracing” guns is a waste of public resources (tax dollars) and is nothing but “security theater.” There is a reason that the bullet registry schemes all failed, why microstamping will fail, and why universal background checks/universal registration will fail as crime fighting techniques. We have to assume that the powers that be are well aware of these fats, suggesting a more sinister intent.

    • tsubaka

      i’ve heard the same thing on french TV years ago,they then proced to present a forensic expert testing tokarevs and a vz61(?) skorpion

    • Marcus D.

      Same thing happens in the ghettos here. The owner keeps the gat in a commandeered mailbox at the project, rents it out by the hour or by the day. The rental rate is higher if you want bullets.

    • phuzz

      I wonder where they get the ammo from? It’s not like you can just stroll into a shop in the UK and buy it.

      • Steve_7

        Handloaded. They introduced controls on primers to stop it but it’s simple to smuggle them in from France, plus you can get them from blanks.

      • The Forty ‘Twa

        If you can get a gun illegally you can get ammunition. It’s like saying drug users can’t walk into a shop and buy heroin, they still manage to get it…

  • Harry’s Holsters

    I wonder if the number of crimes reported is actually true. I was in London in November of 2014 and we heard 20-30 gun shows at approximately 9:30 PM. A couple minutes later came the sirens. We could see the blue lights as they drove down the street a block away to get to the scene.

    I was had a massive cold so my night was over but my friends went to a pub three blocks away and saw the response vehicles leaving with lights and sirens off. I looked for weeks to see something about it in the news. Nothing. We weren’t staying in the best area and it was 80% immigrants from the look of the neighborhood. I find it really hard to believe everything is reported.

    • PK

      No country anywhere has everything reported, in terms of crime.

      • Harry’s Holsters

        While that’s true 20-30 gun shots in an urban area with LE response in an area with supposedly low gun ownership would likely be reported.

        • PK

          No, it isn’t likely reported… just look at the stats. If it’s bad for the official story, and there isn’t video to spread around, then it didn’t happen and that’s that.

          • Typical White Person

            Like a rape epidemic committed in a whole Limey city by “refugees?”

        • Concerned Third Party

          LE in the UK doesn’t police Muslim areas, apparently enforcing British law there is racist or something.

          • Harry’s Holsters

            This area was Muslim and Jamaican. Cheapest option on Air BnB.

    • The Forty ‘Twa

      Good chance it was fireworks, especially in November!

      We don’t have the same approach to public records over here, even if something is reported it doesn’t mean anyone would necessarily find out. That’s one of the big differences I found living in the US, you can pretty much find out anything about a lot of investigations which never happens here.

      • Harry’s Holsters

        I’ve set off my share of fireworks and shot my share of guns. I’m 90% sure it was gun shots. Without see the people involved and what they were making noise with I can’t be 100% sure. That does’t surprise me. Lots of different cultural difference for sure.

        • The Forty ‘Twa

          So probably fireworks…

  • Alex A.

    While reading I couldn’t help but think how myself & many Americans would be considered felons & sent to prison for something we all have.
    Yet a strong majority of us are law abiding & I can guarantee we know more about the topic of firearms & safety than any British Bobby.
    God bless the U.S of muther freakin A!

    • Bill

      Just a point of information; the British cops who are armed had a far higher level of training than their American counterparts. Any of their cops who are armed have been trained to the point that they probably have more finger on trigger time in training than American SWAT cops.

      Their armed response system is very interesting – I learned a lot, and had a lot of myths debunked, after talking to some of their shooters.

      • crackedlenses

        Assuming that they have fewer armed cops than the US LEO have, it would make sense that those armed would receive greater and more specialized training.

      • Steve_7

        A typical AFO shoots 200 rounds per quarter which isn’t a lot, more than some US agencies but there are plenty that do more. Plus you can practice on your own time in the US.

        • The Forty ‘Twa

          When I was an AFO I was shooting a lot more than that. The guys and girls doing it now get more training now then they did when I did it as well.

          • Steve_7

            Bear in mind we’re talking about pistols here (comparing with US cops), not firearms generally, maybe the NPCC have updated the guidance but last time I checked ACPO recommended 200 rounds per quarter for sidearms and I know from talking to AFOs at two different ranges that’s how much they practiced at the time. As I recall it was something like 400 rounds in initial training then 200 rounds per quarter. Which force were you with?

          • The Forty ‘Twa

            One of the legacy Scottish forces as they were at the time. The training packages have got a lot longer and better over the years so I can’t imagine the guys and girls doing it now are shooting less than I was back then.

            I’m part of the IPA and have been over to the US to stay with American cops and have hosted some here. I was shooting far, far more as an AFO than most of them were if they weren’t doing something more specialist on the side.

    • The Forty ‘Twa

      People like the one who was arrested in this case probably wouldn’t be allowed to possess a gun in the US anyway.

  • Chris

    With the exception of Northern Ireland, the Isle of Man and the English Channel Islands (all part of the U.K), all rim-fire and center-fire handguns are banned. In addition to hand-guns all center fire semi automatic long-guns are banned.

    To address the question of gun crime and homicide numbers in the U.K., while the rate of gun ownership in the U.K. is one of the lowest in the world, it’s overall homicide rate is nearly twice that of some of its closest European neighbors. The Swiss, Germans and French are ranked the 3rd, 4th and 5th respectively in terms privately held firearms on a per capita basis, and yet the Swiss and Germans homicide rates are some of the lowest in the world, and nearly 40% lower than Britain’s; the French rate is about the same as the UKs. This clearly indicates that there is no correlation between high levels of gun ownership and crime. If this were the case the Swiss, Germans and French homicide rates would be substantially higher than the UKs.

    • PK

      As I know many nuances of firearms, laws, and crime rates in the USA, I see that I’m largely unaware of the UK and EU versions of same. Thanks for sharing!

      • Jim_Macklin

        Most murderers in the USA happen in less than 5% of te 10,000 counties. Murders happen in Cook County [Chicago] and Detroit and still are mostly in just a few neighborhoods. Some areas haven’t recorded a murder in decades. Maybe all the armed victims deters criminal assaults or maybe some people are more settled, more civilized?

    • The Forty ‘Twa

      The Isle of Man and the Channel Islands are NOT part of the UK.

      • Nunya Bidniz

        I know that the reason the IoM GP became the legendary race that it is was because at the time of its inaugural running [1905], English law forbade racing on public roads. Since the IoM was a protectorate? w/ their own laws, they were exempt from that statute & decided the tourism boost was worth the hassle. And a legend was born! Don’t know how the firearms laws work in that respect tho’… or anything else for that matter! Please, illuminate us!

      • James Hershey

        Really? I was not aware of this. Who runs/owns these islands?

        • The Forty ‘Twa

          They are Crown Dependencies which means they are self governing possessions of the Crown which do not form part of the UK.

    • James Hershey

      This sounds much like America’s protectorates: Guam, Marshall Islands, Puerto Rico.

      • Concerned Third Party

        Federal law conveniently doesn’t apply in federal territories. Isn’t that an irony lol.

  • Ark

    Hahaha, all the criminals in the UK share the same gun.

  • Uncle Webkins

    Oh I remember that stupid thing…

  • Gun Fu Guru

    Surprised it’s not a Hi-Power.

  • HenryV

    Somebody has bound to have said it below, but just in case, we aren’t allowed even .22lr pistols. Air pistols only with various level of restrictions. There is an elite level of collector who can have pistols on Section 5 FAC, but they are a statistical anomaly. I would love to be heading to the range tonight with a nice European semi-auto target handgun in .22lr, but alas I can’t…

    • Jonathan Ferguson

      You are permitted .22 lr long-barrelled pistols, & long barrelled revolvers in any chambering.

      • HenryV

        I was on my way when I typed out that post. We have some GSG 1911 at the club, but my point was even conventional .22lr pistols aren’t ‘freely’ available to us. But top marks for pedantry there, well done……..

    • Steve_7

      Yeah .22s are banned unless you have an exemption and even if you do, most collectibles have to be kept at a “designated site”. But there’s always handrifles as I call them.

      • HenryV

        I try not to think about long barreled pistols. Fair do’s those who own and use them, but nah………… 🙂

  • USMC03Vet

    All a distraction from the real issue of their ruling class selling out their sovereignty. While London has 3+ acid attacks every week their police are publicly focused on mean twitter comments and the rape gangs run amok.

  • Walter Williams

    Do I want one of these? Mebbe……………..!

  • tiger

    Glad Beretta has fans someplace…….

  • Hoplopfheil

    Beggars can’t be choosers, but the 9000s is kind of a sucky gun.

    Source: I have one

  • John Idleness

    What about gun uber – “Gunber”? “Your gun is just arriving, it’s a black CZ75″… There’s a 21st century business model for you!

  • 1ST CAV MEDIC 69 ✔Trump Train

    I guess my Dan Wesson 10mm is out of the question. 6.3 inch barrel, and has less recoil than my Sig P320, and It shoots better.

  • darrell_b8

    At least it wasn’t a SNS (Sat Nite Spcl)….no cheeeeep guns for UK crooks, no sir.

  • pismopal

    Forget firearms..you cannot defend yourself using any object, benign or otherwise. If you carry a screwdriver you had better be in the act of replacing an electric switch plate.

    • The Forty ‘Twa

      Crminals have shot at plain clothes police officers with illegal firearms before and successfully pleaded self defence. A police officer engaged in surveillance was stabbed and killed by Kenneth Noye who was acquitted of murder after arguing self defence. The idea that you can’t defend yourself is a complete myth.

  • richard kluesek

    So who holds Section Five Firearms Certificates ? What are the qualifications ? How many have been issued ? What handguns are approved ? Would that be equivalent to procuring a NYC Full Carry License ?

    • Steve_7

      There are four on issue according to the Home Office, all for weird occupational reasons. There are also a number of statutory exemptions from the handgun ban for collectors and certain occupations (humane destruction of animals) and there are about 12,000 handguns owned under those exemptions.

      • richard kluesek

        Thank You for the enlightenment Steve_7. I’m a former NYer and for decades I had a business full carry (unrestricted all the time) classified as a “Special” License which is an endorsement of a suburban county issued NY State permit. When I first got it they were common to ghetto neighborhood owner/operators/partners of cash’n carry small business prone to armed holdup like liquor stores, convenience stores and gas stations. Now they are rare as new ones are not being issued and there is attrition of holders. Security people like retired law enforcement still get them. I was speculative and surprised that England has such counterpart at all and as many as you indicated. And I assumed that there would only be a handful given to persons such as public office holders and their family members.

        • Steve_7

          Dave Kopel has a theory the UK licencing system was based on NY law. In 1911 there was a Bill that was virtually identical to the NY Pistol Act but it was held up by WW1. When they got around to it in 1920 they threw in rifles as well because of the Bolshevik uprising. Up until 1954 it was possible to get a licence for personal protection but the police stopped after a bunch of people applied after a bungled armed robbery in London. Someone appealed when his renewal was refused, so right up until the handgun ban in 1997 there were a handful of people who still had them. They still issue them in Northern Ireland, handguns aren’t banned there, typically prison officers can get a PPW. One 9mm pistol and 25 rounds.

  • James Hershey

    There are lies, damn lies, then there are statistics. (Mark Twain.)
    Remove all U.S. firearms deaths not connected with drug trafficking then recalculate the percentages.

    • Concerned Third Party

      I’ve done that before, it turns into less gun deaths per capita than Canada. No one likes to acknowledge America has a giant border with the largest narcostate in the world, and every single city is a democrat run dump, infested with gangs that peddle that product from said narcostate and resolve all their problems with gunfire on the streets.

    • The Forty ‘Twa

      Take out drug related crime from Mexican crime stats and it would look a lot better. The problem is it exists so why wouldn’t you count it?

  • CanineCo

    A grossly disproportionate amount of U.S. criminal gun violence is associated with urban, ethnic, drug-related gang activity. That’s the “social issue” everyone avoids discussing.

    • Concerned Third Party

      That’s because a certain party that uses a jackass as its symbol tries to obfuscate the issue as purely a racial one when it has more to do with the rampant fatherlessness of that urban ethnic group, a problem ever more prevalent in other demographics thanks to said jackass party’s obsession with welfare, single mothers, and feminism.

  • Clinton Keller

    My first gun I owned (still do) is a Beretta 9000s in .40S&W.

  • HenryV

    Yes. That was a quick post from me. I forget long barreled pistols and black powder pistols too. My point was that weren’t even allowed ‘conventional’ or should that be ‘normal'(!) pistols even in .22lr. It was the Labour Party under Tony Blair that took the latter off us. The previous Tory government just wanted the centrefire handguns gone. Once something is lost it is hard to get back. I doubt centrefire will come back, but I live in hope of being able to take a .22lr semi-auto target pistol to the range……

  • Schmiss

    Semi-Auto .22 pistols are also banned!! You have false information. You can own a semi auto Long barrelled pistol with a grip extension in .22, but regular .22 pistols are banned and only semi-auto RIFLES or LBP’s are allowed.

  • RetiredSOFguy

    So how about we compare number of gun-related crime with the number of legally owned guns?

    Kind of tells a different story that the ant-liberty folks hate to hear.

  • Kurt Eskildsen

    “In recent years the UK has seen an increase in gun-related crime but while the number of crimes involving handguns in the UK has risen, with 2,685 offences in 2016-17, it remains a fraction of that experienced in the US.” – A fraction of the population of the US too. A pretty high number that just proves, gun laws don’t work. When you factor in other means of violent crime like acid attacks, stabbings and blunt force killings, they are on par with the United States.

    • The Forty ‘Twa

      I like the US definition of violent crime. Punch somebody in the face and as long as you don’t cause them too much harm it isn’t a violent crime. Contrast that with here where stuff an assault without injury accounts for 60% of violent crime (none of which would be counted as violent crime in the US) and I can’t help but think we are missing a trick…

  • Dan

    Looked like the gun was stashed with bottles of shampoo/body wash and cosmetics. Are those prohibited there too? Buying Axe bodywash on the black market?

  • Lockmazter

    Yes, handgun crimes in Britain are a fraction of the rate in the U.S., BUT….the per capita rate of stabbings and bludgeonings with hammers, clubs, etc. is THROUGH THE ROOF, compared to the U.S…..So, lets keep our facts REAL, folks! Killers gonna kill. Period.

  • buzz

    I own that pistol. Didn’t know it was Beretta’s first polymer. Me and Tom Cruise are not proud of this man’s actions but we are certainly proud of our Beretta.

  • Concerned Third Party

    If this guy was in America he’d also be a̶r̶r̶e̶s̶t̶e̶d̶
    ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶b̶e̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶ ̶f̶e̶l̶o̶n̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶p̶o̶s̶s̶e̶s̶s̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶o̶f̶
    ̶a̶ ̶f̶i̶r̶e̶a̶r̶m̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶s̶e̶r̶i̶a̶l̶ ̶g̶r̶o̶u̶n̶d̶
    ̶o̶f̶f̶ given a slap on the wrist for his federal crime and turned back out on the street to commit more crimes as democrat politicians tell his potential victims they don’t need guns themselves.

  • bob

    Perhaps Chicago should pay attention and hand out 7 year prison sentences for illegal possession of a firearm. THAT would get criminals attention !

  • JohnnyCuredents

    How’s the Brits’ ban on long knives, machetes, and autos working out? I mean, those ARE the weapons of choice of Britain’s most dangerous thugs these days, the only ones who threaten to take over the entire country, lock, stock, and barrel (pardonez-moi the pun).

  • Jacket

    To avoid confusion…this is a firearm subject to control under s.5(1)(aba) Firearms Act 1968. Possession is regulated by the Home Office, usually NOT for individuals. Calibre is irrelevant. Unregulated possession attracts a mandatory 5 year prison sentence…

  • Carl_N_Brown

    19 shootings over 7 years with one gun in UK. Not unusual in gun crime. The US ATF database of crime scene ballistics often finds strings of crimes committed with the same gun. by the same perpetrator or a gang sharing or passing along the gun. For an extreme example, a string of 16 armed robberies in one year with shots fired all tied to one gun.

    The idea that blanket bans applied to the law-abiding are an effective method of controlling criminal behavior deserves a rethink.

  • demarcus

    They don’t have 18% of the population committing 45% of all violent crimes.