50,000 MORE H&K M27s for Marines: USMC Releases M27 IAR Sole Source Notice

Original caption: "Marine Cpl. Alfredo Ibarra from Laredo, Texas, attached to the 31st Marine Expeditionary Unit, fires an M27 Infantry Automatic Rifle (IAR) during a combat-marksmanship program weapons exercise on the flight deck of the amphibious dock landing ship USS Ashland (LSD 48)." Image credit: US Navy, Mass Communication Specialist 3rd Class Jonathan Clay, public domain.

The United States Marine Corps has issued a new acquisition notice for up to 50,814 M27 Infantry Automatic Rifles (IAR), to be sole sourced from Heckler & Koch. The notice is technically not a solicitation in and of itself, but a pre-solicitation notice, intended to give other companies the chance to submit their own proposals or bids if they think they can meet the same need at a lower cost. From the solication:

This notice of intent is not a request for competitive proposals.  However, any responsible source who believes it is capable of meeting the requirement may submit a capability statement, proposal, or quotation, which shall be considered by the agency, only if received by the closing date and time of this notice.  A determination not to compete the proposed requirement based upon the responses to this notice is solely within the discretion of the Government.

It is not yet known exactly what model will be procured under this contract. Since the delivery of the original M27 IAR, Heckler & Koch has produced a number of improved models of the HK416 rifle upon which the M27 is based. These models feature substantial differences from the original, for example an entirely new (and more industry standard) lower forging in the HK416A5. Whichever weapon these second batch M27s will be based upon, they will surely retain the same salient aspects of the original M27, including its heavy barrel and GI bayonet lug mount.

This news follows Marine Corps evaluations of the M27 IAR as a standard issue infantry rifle, issued to 3rd Battalion, 5th Marines, as well as the release of an RFI for 11,000 new IARs. This new acquisition notice will no doubt raise further speculation that the Marine Corps is preparing to “pure-fleet” the M27 in replacement of the M4 Carbine, even as the Army is pursuing a new 7.62mm select fire rifle.



Nathaniel F

Nathaniel is a history enthusiast and firearms hobbyist whose primary interest lies in military small arms technological developments beginning with the smokeless powder era. In addition to contributing to The Firearm Blog, he runs 196,800 Revolutions Per Minute, a blog devoted to modern small arms design and theory. He is also the author of the original web serial Heartblood, which is being updated and edited regularly. He can be reached via email at nathaniel.f@staff.thefirearmblog.com.


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  • Ευστάθιος Παλαιολόγος

    So, don’t the Marines feel Overmatched or Underpowered against Level IV plates?

    • Nicks87

      I dont think Marines feel overmatched or underpowered against anything… Ever.

      • Klaus Von Schmitto

        To their detriment on occasion.

        • Joe

          Such as?

          • Brett baker

            Korea, Vietnam, TGWOT

      • Uniform223

        They have knives and sharp sticks!
        https://youtu.be/xHYGgOXww48

      • MeaCulpa

        That’s the nice things with feelings, their never wrong even if factually incorrect.

        *takes cover*

  • Anonymoose

    Will these be ambi like the A5?

    • Joshua

      Doubtful

  • Brett baker

    Is there a requirement they work with m855a1?

    • Amplified Heat

      What about common 5.56 STANAG magazines? Or will it miss compatibility with the most common PMAG variant by *that much* again?

      • Brett baker

        But they’d gladly sell us HK mags. Heavier , more expensive, and less reliable than a Brownell’s GI mag.

  • Fast Forward

    Are we seeing the beginning of the end of DI and the M4, for all except CQB?

    • Joshua

      Yes. It was bound to happen. They’ve been trying to get rid of the weapon since Vietnam.

      However SOCOM had no intention to follow this and will maintain the m4A1.

      • PK

        “I would rather have a 8lb .308 rifle with the hopes of am eventual
        intermediate caliber conversion down the line, than carry a 8.6lb 5.56
        rifle.”

        If the ammo weighed the same per cartridge, I might agree.

        • Joshua

          I’ve been issued and carried the SCAR-H before.

          I would take it over a 416 any day.

          • James Kachman

            I know this is late, but why is that?

      • Kinetics

        Question, I know that the CSASS hasn’t been doing well but do you think that the ICSR competition will negatively affect the CSASS?

        After all, wouldn’t it be much better to base all of your 7.62 rifles off of the same platform (whatever is chosen for the ICSR), than have possibly 3 different 7.62 rifles in service (M110/replacement, ICSR, and the SDMR)?

        • Samuel Millwright

          Csass is basically doa… The 417 sucked it up HARD in evals and the program essentially got defunded.

        • Joshua

          I fully believe the ICSR will negatively effect the CSASS.

          • From what I hear, CSASS has negatively affected CSASS.

          • Joshua

            Hahaha, truer words have never been spoken.

            I just meant the idea of a CSASS or SASS type rifle will be harmed by the ICSR imo.

          • Timmah_timmah

            Hahaha there it is

      • Amplified Heat

        It may be the Marines are just jaded and don’t expect the ICSR to go anywhere in time for the next big war (unless it’s a decade away, that’s honestly a safe bet)

        • Joshua

          The Marines want to be special. It’s that simple.

          That’s why the “Uber squad” is borrowing gear from MARSOC. The Marine Corp heads currently throwing their weight around what to be like SOCOM, but they’re not and never will be.

          But like all things theres 2 sides to the story, one I agree with…and one i and many other do not.

    • Amplified Heat

      Well, the end of DI was inevitable since no one ever used it in another design (that wasn’t highly similar if not outright identical to the AR10/15 and leveraging the open source data for cheaper/faster development)

      • Brett baker

        French MAS49, pretty reliable gun by all accounts.

        • ostiariusalpha

          That’s a separate DI system. The MAS and Ljungman rifles use a fixed piston direct impingement design; it’s extremely simple, but also has to deal with off-axis forces on the bolt carrier (e.g. carrier tilt). They solve this by having the carrier secured in strong steel rails in a steel receiver, which adds weight. The Stoner system is an internal piston direct impingement design, that has an inline operating force. It doesn’t require a set of heavy rails or receiver, making the overall gun lighter.

  • Uniform223

    so does this mean that an economy of scales will start to happen and the price will drop from 3k per unit to 2999 per unit?

    • Major Tom

      Be realistic man, it’s going to drop the price from 3000 per unit to 2999.99. Not counting sales tax.

    • Fast Forward

      Surely; there must be some sort of a discount after the first 50,000?

      • jonp

        They could buy a million Hi Point carbines for that money

    • Klaus Von Schmitto

      No. It’s Heckler and Koch. You buy one and they’ll think about selling a second one to you. And there’s no quantity discount. Everyone wants them. Why should they? You’ll buy what they want to sell you and be glad they noticed you.

    • Ark

      No, it will increase to $3,500, because you suck and we hate you.

      • Timmah_timmah

        Pretty much

    • PersonCommenting

      Whats the US Military buy them for? Why do we keep giving our weapons contracts to foreign countries? I mean yeah they have to bring a branch to the US but that money is still making its way back over seas.

    • CavScout

      No. This is weird. These are definitely PRE WAR orders.

  • lowell houser

    When I was in there were less than 20,000 grunts total. That’s EVERYONE with an 03 MOS. It’s probably like 50,000 now since the wars are still ongoing. So how many of these things are already in inventory? That will tell you everything you need to know. Everybody in the rear can make do with a mix of M16A4s an M4s, the grunts and those attached can draw one of these. Would not be surprised to find that this is the plan.

    Now if we could talk my beloved corps into evaluated the KAC Stoner and scraping all of the M249s. In fact a bunch of us would pay to watch the M249s cut up and melted. Seriously, you could sell tickets.

    • Ευστάθιος Παλαιολόγος

      I think when the big wars (like the ones with military foes, not COIN) everybody will be looking for an open bolt high rate of fire LMG

      • Samuel Millwright

        I agree completely, especially if interim is code for we’ll change nothing for half a century as usual…

        • Timmah_timmah

          Sounds about right, unfortunately

    • PK

      The M249, when relatively new and well maintained with replacement parts, can be a great gun. Right now, as you know, they’re horrific. New LMGs of almost any flavor would outdo current inventory by leaps and bounds, and a lot of designs would be lighter and handier at the start, too.

      • BeGe1

        I’ve heard that the original LMG (not the M249, but the original upon which it was based, i.e. without the STANAG magwell added to it, named mimime or something?) is good. But I’ve yet to see an M249 that is worth drawing from the armory.

        • PK

          The only M249 I’ve seen that ran 100% over thousands of rounds was a near-new post sample, recently purchased. Anything in military armories is beat to pieces, worn out, and pretty awful.

          It has a bad name due to being too worn out in current inventory.

          • BeGe1

            If it doesn’t work in anything other than a near-new post sample then personally I don’t think the bad name is undeserved.

          • PK

            All I’m saying is that, properly maintained, the M249 runs just fine. The lack of replacement parts, lack of maintenance, and outright abuse has those in inventory run down and then some.

            Personally, give me a Mk46 or Mk48 over either a M249 or M240.

          • BeGe1

            Yah, and that’s exactly what I disagree with 🙂 You yourself claimed that there’s only once instance of a well running M249that you’ve known, and it was brand new. My known examples and those of others I know is the same. Other machine guns seem do fine with maintenance in the very same armories and users, stored side-by-side with the M249.

          • PK

            Right. It’s a great gun… just not for military use!

          • Ευστάθιος Παλαιολόγος

            The Minimi is a Light Machine Gun unlike the MAG which is a General Purpose MG

          • CommonSense23

            It works fine if you maintain it. You can’t compare a 240 to a 249 maintenance wise. You got close to a extra 8 pounds of metal on the gun.

          • Machinegunnertim

            Beloved is a bit of a stretch.

          • BeGe1

            Yah, I guess “beloved” is probably not a good term for a hunk of metal you’ve had to carry up and down mountains for hundreds and hundreds of miles. That’s fair.

          • Brett baker

            I honestly think They’re using the maintainence intervals from the m1917a1.

        • The FN Minimi had the magwell LONG before it competed to become the M249. That was one of FN’s selling points – “In an emergency, the LMG gunner can use rifle magazines.”

    • BeGe1

      It’s less now. Last I had heard someone said 14,000. Deployments are WAY down, not nearly as much happening. The only things going to Afghanistan right now are non-combat deployments.

      I could see M4 remaining in infantry inventory for MOUT, they’re pretty awesome for that. The difference between what is good for MOUT and what is good for pretty much everything else is pretty big…at some point they gotta come up with a tactic for dealing with that fact.

      But yeah…screw the M249. They’ve all been given to the 0331’s now, and just like before all they do is use the M240B and never take out the M249. They hate it.

    • ePoch 270

      “As of 2016, the USMC has around 182,000 active duty members and some 38,500 reserve Marines. It is the smallest of the U.S. Armed Forces within the DoD.” Wiki

    • Alex A.

      Where can I get these tickets you speak of?

    • rabrooks

      My question is, what was that the germans/duutch were saying about the hk’s?

  • Major Tom

    So stealth replacement for M16/M4 is confirmed. They just haven’t said so.

  • Kinetics

    Fun Fact: If the USMC selects an H&K bid, the Army will have pure fleeted on 7.62 before H&K has produced half of the contract allocation.

    • Joshua

      The sad part is that is a very true statement.

      Hks ability to build rifles in a timely manner is pathetic.

    • venku

      Joke’s on you! The army will procure 417s for an ungodly sum and neither will get their rifles before the next century.
      😀

      • Amplified Heat

        …but only after paying for the 416s, right?

  • Kinetics

    “This new acquisition notice will no doubt raise further speculation that the Marine Corps is preparing to “pure-fleet” the M27 in replacement of the M4 Carbine”.

    Raise further speculation? You mean confirm?

  • Martin M

    It was very obvious from the beginning where the IAR was going. Complete end-run around procurement for a new rifle.

    • Joshua

      Yes, I’ve said it for years.

      • Martin M

        Absolutely. I felt bad for the companies that actually met the requirements but were told no my the USMC.

        • Joshua

          Especially since the 416 was not the most reliable, nor the most durable of rifles entered yet it was one of the most expensive rifles.

          However, it was the closest thing to the basic M4 entered.

          • Amplified Heat

            Man, if only Korth had entered their own M4gery we’d have our new rifle by now…

  • Louis C

    I hope they go to the HK416A5 lower. The original 416 lower was a step in the wrong direction.

  • XT6Wagon

    So… it has feeding issues where army M855A1 ammo tears up the gun and they are going to double down on it?

    I really really hope these are to fix the stupidity of the current gun so they can use all 5.56 rounds currently issued to US troops. If its more of the same, I’d start investigating the staff involved for corruption.

    • feetpiece _

      They’ll get Special Bullets for their KrautHammers while Big Army orders a bunch of SCAR-H’s and rebrand them the CAR-17.

    • Fast Forward

      This might be a good reason to stay with the Mk318 rather than the M855a1.

      It might also be argued that the Mk318 would be, overall, the better choice.

      • But M855A1 is the much better choice. It defeats 3/8″ steel out to 400 yards, has excellent low velocity fragmentation out to 350-450yards, and can even defeat cinder blocks within 40 yards.

        • Samuel Millwright

          Not to mention that whole we are genuinely screwed for domestic lead production thing making mk318 not even a real option for anything but these pissant wars we’re involved in currently….

          People always forget that one tiny little point somehow.

          • Fast Forward

            Re: lead

            “….by replacing the lead with copper and slightly
            stretching the jacket around to crimp the nose even more, the bullet’s
            ballistic coefficient increased. To avoid visual confusion with the Mk
            262 round, the bullet was entirely nickel-plated for a silver color; the
            enhanced silver-colored copper jacketed, open tip match, 62-grain
            projectile was named the Mk318 Mod1.”

          • Samuel Millwright

            I did not know that, thanks

          • Kivaari

            The Silver Valley Idaho has billions of tons of lead. It just needs to reopen mines (Bunker Hill and Cresent) and get a domestic smelter (closest is Canada). Lead we have. EPA rules have made it difficult to extract and refine.

          • Brett baker

            Ain’t you heard boy, you need to find tungsten in them thar hills!

          • Robert Kalani Foxworthy

            thanks to obama

          • James Kachman

            Mk318 Mod 1 is lead free.

        • Fast Forward

          I have looked (brief search) for documentation comparing the Mk318 Mod1 and the M855a1.
          My understanding was that they both performed well, but differently. They both have strengths and weaknesses.

          The Mk318 Mod1 might, however, perform more reliably with the M27/HK416?

    • Amplified Heat

      What, you mean ol’ General Shilley who’s been crying to every media outlet & congressional committee for like a decade about how we have no choice but to adopt the HK416 specifically or we’ll all be annihilated by rampaging tribals with PKMs? We should have all been dead by now for not heeding his advice fast enough.

    • Samuel Millwright

      Apparently, a fix to make m27 not beat itself to death if fed m855a1 wouldn’t be all that technically difficult…

      I also find it deliciously ironic that we had to neuter our mg’s long range capabilities in order to make it so that the garand could share rounds with them… And not blow up

      And now the marines have to fix their machine gun so they can share ammo with their carbines bwahaha!

      *also in both cases better options were available too! In ww2 the m1941 johnson rifle and lmg could both use the GOOD M1 30’06 ammo, and today the m4a1 an m4a1 pip or pretty much everything but the 416 woulda been fine with 318 AND 855A1

      as the wheel of derp nutates…

  • NewMan

    Fact is the M27/HK 416 meet and exceed all of the requirements and will continue to. Other companies are fooling themselves if they think they can come close to that. People are just going to have to accept the fact that the out-dated DI M4 is fading away. HK-style piston system has proven to be far more robust, more reliable in harsh condition and is much easier to maintenance. It is the future of the US military.

    • Mrninjatoes

      “Out dated M4”? What are you smoking? How long will a bolt carrier group last on a 416 last compared to an M4A1? There are a lot of Industry professionals who went to war with a 416 and hated it.

      • Joshua

        We call him slowman for a reason.

        He copy/pastes his statements every time this comes up.

    • mcjagermech

      Do you just copy paste your comments? They always sound the same

      • NewMan

        I’m just telling it like it is. The day of the DI M4 are numbers. the 416/417 will be standard. Just watch.

        • CommonSense23

          So what is your working experience with the 416? Or the M4.

          • AC97

            As always, he saw the 416 on something like Future Weapons and took it as gospel. That’s it.

        • “The day of the DI M4 are numbers” LOL

          • mosinman

            THE NUMBERS MASON! WHAT DO THEY MEAN?!?!

          • ostiariusalpha

            There’s something poetic about that.

        • Joshua

          No it won’t….not ever.

    • Eric H

      Funny how you fail to mention that the bolt carrier groups in M27s fail at a much faster rate than the M4/M16.

      • NewMan

        Nope. Testing show that the 416 far exceed the M4 in terms of parts lifespan and reliability. How about you stop drinking DI’s koolaid?

        • Xerxes036

          He might be talking about the M27 and it’s issues with the M855A1.

        • Mrninjatoes

          Can you cite that? What parts last longer? Pistons beat receiver extensions, bolts and bolt carrier groups to death. The first HK 416’s would break the disconnector. Piston guns only shine in short barrel full autos…and that is coming from a guy (Larry Vickers) who helped design it.

        • Joshua

          According to Crane TRS for the M4A1 and the 416 you don’t know what you’re talking about.

        • Uniform223

          In testing you say…

          the M4A1 had the longest service life and the least class 3 stoppages/malfunctions.

    • Gary Kirk

      “HK-style piston system”.. You mean the same piston operating system that’s been around for half a century??

      • Samuel Millwright

        And sucked then too?

        Yup that’s the one!

        • Timmah_timmah

          hahaha pretty much

      • venku

        And back then it was called the “AR-18 style piston system”. Which was coincidentally designed by Mr Stoner himself.

    • Brett baker

      If ease of maintainence was #1, we’d buy even more reliable AKs instead. But we rate accuracy, ergonomics, and modularity higher. It’s nice to have receivers that can be rebarreled several times more than HerrKraptastic’s. And cheaper to replace when it,much later, craps out
      .

  • Brett baker

    I just remembered there was a science fiction novel where the Marines carried M27 rifles. I think it was the “Star Corps” trilogy by Ian Douglas. Wouldn’t surprise me if That’s part of the reason the corps is changing.

    • John May

      Those novels came out in the late 90s. Way before the HK416/IAR. The gun on the front of the first novel I believe reminds me more of a mix of Stoner 63/96 & Galil.

      • Brett baker

        I meant the designation, not the looks. Actually, I wanted the Colt-Ruger pistol.

  • forrest1985

    So with “big army” going back to 7.62 what was the point again of asking the Marines to move away from mk318? What also puzzles me is people talking about overmatch and the need for 7.62, yet the trigger pullers over at SOCOM are going with th M4A1.

    • Jason Culligan

      That’s because SOCOM aren’t bound to procurement decisions by generals with vested interests. They’re relatively free to get the right weapons to get the job done and the 556 does just that.

      • After all, why spend SOCOM dollars, when by staying with M4A1, they can just use Big Green dollars?

        Hell, I own two parachutes (one of which hadn’t even been put into service before it was surplused out by SOCOM) *specifically* because of that kind of budget issue. (The snake eaters needed a better round steerable than the MC-1 family, so they adopted a Fire Service canopy as the SF-10A, and slapped it on a T-10/MC-1 harness. Big Green saw the improvement, updated the harness and went to a skydiver style pin closure, and adopted it as the MC-6. At which point, SOCOM immediately surplused out their SF-10s, pocketed the money back into their discretionary SOCOM funds, and just orders MC-6 through regular channels when they need steerable rounds on Big Green’s dime.)

    • James Young

      Doesnt SOCOM use 416s?

      • Joshua

        No. JSOC does due to a contract vehicle that has been being fulfilled for years and still isn’t completed.

        90% of SOCOM uses the M4A1 and CQB-R from Crane.

        Those 90% are pursuing a Block III upper.

    • Samuel Millwright

      Mk318 isn’t actually viable / would be a horrible choice if we had to fight even a near peer much less a peer. That’s what it’s about

  • onthedew

    This makes no sense…..

    Lets recap:

    1. The M855a1 round destroys the current M4s( and M27) So It need redesigning.

    2. The M855A1 round while green is very corrosive

    3. A general in Congressional hearings says the M855A1 it not everything
    they though it was.

    4. SOCOM and the Marine issued a bit request for 60K+ Suppressed
    uppers that should be awarded in the next 90 days based around the M855A1
    round.

    5. The Army has asked for .308 ARs to play with so they can
    develop a Standard to issue a bid request for.

    Did I cover everything?

    • ostiariusalpha

      50% of that was incorrect. The current M855A1 has only slightly more wear on the M4 versus M855; it’s really just the piston-operated M27 that is having such a hard time with it. Also, no modern western ammunition is corrosive. The M855A1 does everything that the Army needs it to and more; it is projections of future combat against opponents, with better armor that the bullet won’t penetrate, that has Gen. Milley concerned. This ignores that the 7.62/.308 cartridge doesn’t actually perform better, bullet for bullet, against armor than 5.56x45mm does.

      • Jason Culligan

        Just a slight point, the fact that the HK 416 is struggling with the M855A1 has nothing to do with it being piston driven.

        It’s the feed ramp that is being worn away by the steel tips of the round. The M4A1 was also having the same issue but new magazines resolved that.

        • ostiariusalpha

          Nope. The M855A1 has a slightly longer pressure curve, which results in higher gas port pressure. This is not such a problem for the M4, since the pressure drops again in the distance that the gas tube gives from the port to the internal piston; but no such luck for the M27, which has its piston face right next to the gas port, and bears the full brunt of the increased pressure. It doesn’t help that the M27 is already an overgassed design to begin with either.
          Also, Joshua has been been very diligent in pointing out that the M855A1 has a habit of chewing up the chamber face on the M27, versus not doing so on the M4, which has more chamfer on its chamber mouth.

          • Amplified Heat

            Interesting, so it sounds like the same old “probably should have gone with the longer gas system to run such a hot round” situation that so many ran into when the M4 SBR craze took off a few years back (short/light pistol gas systems but with carbine-length barrels)

            The real problem was adopting a round with a steel prick-punch for a tip and expecting it to run well in aluminum guns & magazines (and normalized steel barrels, to a lesser extent)

          • ostiariusalpha

            The M4 runs OK with M855A1, but I’m in agreement that the gas length should be moved out a bit; I don’t think mid-length is necessary, but something more optimal than carbine length would be nice.
            The exposed penetrator certainly complicates things for conventional cartridge designs, but on the plus side, LSAT/CTSAS ammo has no problems with it whatsoever.

          • Amplified Heat

            The tip is tucked inside on the LSAT round, right? I don’t understand why they couldn’t simply coat the penetrators with a thin layer of shellac or teflon; just enough to prevent abrasion & give a little cushion against rattling under recoil. Not like a steel plate would notice the difference.

            I am also beginning to wonder if the sudden obsession with Level IV body armor has more to do with North Korea than Russia. The Norks have been rather flush with cash lately, China makes a lot of decent body armor, and the tech is rather foolproof to deploy once you’ve bought it. I’d be surprised if they didn’t have a similar number of spear-tip soldiers outfitted with armor as we could expect from a Russian infantry effort.

          • Brett baker

            As has been pointed out at this blog, none of our standard grunt ammo will penetrate level in armor. It sounds better than we want a slightly longer range round that most troops can’t take advantage of.

          • Amplified Heat

            Well, I’m not suggesting 308 would pierce it, just that the sudden interest in the capability is rather interesting. Milley’s been harping on the range aspect for years, but everyone knew it wasn’t really that big a problem in practice. Now, we’re suddenly worried enough about armor (and actual plausible factor in a number of scenarios) that we look like we want to do something about it. I wonder if this will impact the pistol selection as well; after all, it was armor concerns that nearly had NATO adopt 5.7×28 decades back to replace 9mm.

          • Brett baker

            There is the new AP ammo, but It’s pricey and made of tungsten, something we Don’t have a lot of. Like I’ve suggested before, it’d be cheaper to give everybody an ACOG and train to shoot around armor if the opposition is wearing it.

          • Fast Forward

            LSAT translates into mañana.

      • onthedew

        Not based on my observations. The weapon if not cleaned daily all have pitted surfaces. The barrel nut threads are stretching. The Gas tubes fail regularly… The round operates at 63,000+ psi. It is way harder on the equipment.

        • ostiariusalpha

          M855A1 hasn’t used 63,000 PSI in years, they dropped it down a long time ago. Your observations are not in line with anyone elses even before they changed the pressure.

    • Amplified Heat

      The tax payer is also paying out the keister for every round of M855A1 due to that patent infringement settlement

      • ostiariusalpha

        That was settled in favor of the Government, Liberty isn’t getting a single penny now.

        • Robert Kalani Foxworthy

          Liberty litterally took Darpa research and patented it. since darp had began to develope such ammunition in the 70’s.

      • James Kachman

        Also fwiw, M855A1 is only $.30 per round.

  • Warren Ellis

    Can these newer M27s work with the M855A1 round?

  • Gary Kirk

    “heavy barrel and G.I. bayonet lug”.. Well, at least with the heavy barrel, you may actually be able to use your bayonet without having to immediately rezero the rifle..

  • Hopefully they will incorporate a hybrid flash/comp similar to the EFAB or Warcomp along with the Geissele High Speed Selector to improve their full auto performance.

    • ostiariusalpha

      I love the AFAB/EFAB hybrid muzzle devices. They’d be just about perfect if they were QD mounts for suppressors.

  • Xerxes036

    I’ll be amazed if general issue of the M27 will happen solicitation or not.

  • Christof Schumann

    The french army just bought 250.000 of the HK 417 to replace their old and bulky rifle. Delivery is spread out over a time period of 10 years. Building a nearly perfect weapon takes time… Too bad that the “punisher gun” from HK was discontinued. That gun was a game changer in theater.

    • CommonSense23

      The grenade launcher was nowhere near being a game changer. It saw extremely little field use to have any idea of its value.

    • tsubaka

      “The french army just bought 250.000 of the HK 417”
      of the HK416 no?
      btw, the HK417 is in limited service in french secret service (president bodyguards),gendarmerie (seen use in afgha) and maybe some navy commando

    • Joshua

      What?

      It was 90,000 and it’s the 416. That will also take HK 10 years to build 90k rifles which is laughably pathetic.

      • CJS

        Surely it was the customer who wanted to buy over ten years, rather than HK saying they need ten to produce?

        As for the “Punisher”, hasn’t it been reported here and elsewhere that it wasn’t as great as was hoped (and that the tech could be transferred to the 40mm for similar/better results)?

        • Joshua

          Hks manufacturing ability is near maxed right now.

          Between Norway, France, and the Marine Corps ordering 416s HK is basically tapped out on production capacity.

          Most internally are counting HK out of the ICSR competition due to their ability manufacture any more rifles for different customers, especially if they get the G36 replacement with their 433, they will struggle to meet contract deadlines.

    • Samuel Millwright

      It got “cancelled” because hk f***ed us…STRAIGHT UP F***ED US for those hard of hearing….

      Oh and btw the 416 is hardly “nearly perfect” i think tje term you’re actually looking for is barely adequate!

  • Meanwhile, anyone who can read a US History book and knows what weapons procurement programs were like during the Civil War is already preparing their I TOLD YOU SO, DUMBASSES statements in advance for when this house of extremely stupid and transparently corrupt cards comes tumbling down on our soldiers’ and Marines’ heads.

    • Timmah_timmah

      Damn. Real talk.

  • jonp

    What scope is on that rifle in the picture?

    • JohnB

      Acog 6x with RMR

    • Friend

      Nah, it’s a TA11 3.5x. But yeah on the RMR.

  • NukeItFromOrbit

    So can we put a stake in the heart of the “M855A1 destroys M27s” myth yet or do we need another fifteen comments saying how the M27 is garbage because HK hates everybody?

    • Joshua

      Well M855A1 does destroy the M27, there’s no denying that.

      • NukeItFromOrbit

        Clearly it doesn’t destroy them enough for the USMC to think it a problem.

        • Joshua

          Oh it’s a problem, they just are attempting everything they can to not have to admit it.

          I’ve posted numerous pictures taken from testing done with M855A1 and the M27 and it tears up the chambers as well as breaks the rifles well before the M4A1.

        • Timmah_timmah

          That’s some logic there… How about we go with actual evidence in testing and use? Not the whims of procurement bureaucrats. What a concept.

    • Samuel Millwright

      No because it’s not a myth

      • NukeItFromOrbit

        And I’m to believe this issue hasn’t been corrected because the internet says so? Marine Corps small arm procurement isn’t that incompetent.

        • Samuel Millwright

          No you’re supposed to believe it’s true because the USMC and the french MOD have tested it, and confirmed this is the case…

        • Samuel Millwright

          Ugh i misspoke on the French MOD, however a french MOD employee whose job is in small arms procurement has said essentially that it’s absurd to expect hk to somehow make the m27 work perfectly with a round which was not even on the USMC radar until years after the contract, and thus the TDP, were finalized!

          And, he’s right!

          That is absurd which is why it WASN’T DONE, and since we’d know if there were are any MWO’s issued to modify the existing m27’s which would also be a good indicator of TDP change to boot…. We can therefore very reasonably and logically conclude that this is in fact still an issue.

          *drops mic*

          SERVED

          • NukeItFromOrbit

            Yet the French MOD decided to procure the HK416 anyway despite being aware of these issues and I’d imagine that sooner or later they are going to an improved type of ammunition which will probably generate higher pressures as the M855A1 does. The USMC meanwhile has continued to procure the M27 despite these issues and surely they don’t intend on restricting the type of 5.56mm ammo the M27 can use.

            Something doesn’t add up here and I rather doubt *everybody* who has procured the HK416 in some form was incompetent.

          • Samuel Millwright

            Actually, the french British and etc will not EVER be switching to 855a1 because according to their jag equivalents it’s fragmenting ammo and thus illegal…

          • NukeItFromOrbit

            They didn’t use the M855 anyway, point is they will probably eventually switch to a more “harsh” (on the weapon) ammunition similar to the M855A1 vs M855.

          • Samuel Millwright

            Keep digging though watson…

            Maybe at some point you’ll figure out that i was a fanboy like you once, and then i actually did some digging…

          • NukeItFromOrbit

            Oh I am a fanboy now? Do tell me how I am a fanboy, I’d love to hear this.

          • Samuel Millwright

            The 855a1 issue can very easily be fixed actually, it hasn’t been yet though… As I’ve been saying this entire time.

            You’re the one who called it all a myth etc etc while I’ve very clearly explained why each new excuse etc you’ve thrown is clearly wrong…

            If that doesn’t make you a fanboy idk what does

    • CommonSense23

      How does this put a stake in the fact that M27s and 416s have issues with M855A1?

  • Joshua

    If only anyone knew just how accurate that data was it would scare some people.

    I know a few people who got calls in the middle of the night regarding that article.

    • Eric H

      What kind of calls and who were getting them? Don’t need actual names but more the types of people getting those calls.

      • Joshua

        The data was accurate enough, and not available enough that certain people with certain ranks got woken up wanting to know if they leaked that information, and if not who.

        Lucky it didn’t come from any of the people I know, but I have a hunch on where it came from and if that hunch is right those people would know while also being out of the chain of command of the above people.

        That is as unobscure as I can go, which I know still leaves a lot of questions unanswered.

        • Eric H

          It’s good enough for me as it speaks volumes as to how big that information was.

        • What are you talking about? I’ve been reliably informed by People On Forums that the data is complete bunk because H&K said so. XD

  • Bulldogdriver

    Why are all the US military rifle contracts going to either HK or FN. There are multiple US companies that can make rifles that are just as good. LWRC, LMT and Daniel Defense just to name a few. I will not be surprised if the army’s interim 7.62mm rifle contract goes to HK or FN again.

    • 2wheels

      Because it takes a big player to win a contract for tens of thousands of firearms, simply making a good rifle isn’t enough. Of the companies you mentioned only LWRC attempted to compete for the M27 IAR contract (the finalists were Colt, HK, and FN).

      • Timmah_timmah

        Yup. Tis true lads.

      • Bulldogdriver

        Well, DD made tens of thousands of handguards for the british army. LMT has large contracts with the british army and NZ army. LWRC has contracts with the Swedes. My point is the US military should help US manufacturers make it big!

        • 2wheels

          Handguards aren’t rifles. LMT didn’t bother to enter the competition. LWRC did and lost.

          Our domestic arms manufacturing seems to be doing just fine without the US Government propping them up, there’s no reason to just give them contracts. There was a competition, the US companies that entered lost, what’s the big deal?

  • bj

    Why when they have US based companies that make a better, lighter and newer product, that’s cheaper and state side.
    Enough with the HK nonsense.
    Enough with all the different branches wasting money on different platforms, ammo.

    • Jason Culligan

      That’s why other competitors can still bid. I doubt any would be chosen but if a good enough offer was submitted it may just happen.

    • 2wheels

      Most of the companies you’re probably thinking about couldn’t produce the number of rifles necessary to win a contract like this. If they could, why didn’t they enter the competition for the IAR?

      Colt was the only US company to make it to the finals of the IAR competition, they lost, no use in complaining because a US company didn’t win the contract.

    • tony

      German made products > American

  • Kivaari

    That is a good article that promotes a M4PIP that to me makes more sense. Much less costly.

    • Samuel Millwright

      A super PIP based off the work Colt Canada and some other people are doing is totally the way to go. What tjey could do with $1500-$2000 per gun and at least 10,000 gun per year guaranteed orders (still 33%-50% cheaper than an m27 mind you) would blow everyone’s god damn socks off!

      You’d have m27 like barrel life, effectively zero cookoff thresholds, retarded long parts life, and marksmanship scores suddenly jumping hard enough you might just be able to up standards without losing % of guys capable of making expert etc!

      Throw in another $500-$1000 for a nice reflex suppressor and giggity GAWDDAMNIT now we’re in bidness cletus!

    • Eric H

      Exactly but it seems that everyone wants new weapons versus cheaper upgrades.

  • rabrooks

    Looks again like they missed the point. With all the mfgr’s around, was there no “American” company to go with? I have nothing against HK, but can you be sure about merkel? She can flake-out at any time………..

    • Brett baker

      No US firm had the features they wanted, or at least didn’t enter. Supposedly, HK won because it looked most like the M4.

    • 2wheels

      Colt was the only American company to make it to the finals (along with HK and FN).

      Most of these American companies people think should be building rifles for the military aren’t big enough players to produce tens of thousands of rifles for a military contract.

      • rabrooks

        Not to be argumentive, but I don’t think any company does. While in I remember having M16’s and 203’s from Colt and H&R. Didn’t think it odd until a few years ago.

    • Amplified Heat

      More like, why would be make a large portion of our rifle acquisition logistics with a company with as much debt as HK, from a nation that is actively trying to drive it out of business? Then again, this could work as a total “Batman gambit” as far as giving HK an offer they basically can’t refuse to leave Germany and set up shop stateside, full time (which is basically happening with most of the world’s primary small arms makers if you think about it; FN, SIG, CZ, Kalashnikov, Glock, etc). With HK gone, I think Rheinmetal would be the only player of significance left in the Euro small arms market that isn’t beholden to the US, which leaves us in control of a very important strategic industry for an increasingly hostile continent.

      • Timmah_timmah

        Interesting thought. In the event of intercontinental war, would not the German owned companies retreat home?

        • Brett baker

          We’d seize the assets, just like we’ve done since 1776.

  • Brett baker

    HK has better hookers.

    • iksnilol

      Still means it’s a better offer.

      • Brett baker

        True.😁

        • iksnilol

          I mean, if Glock sent me a couple o them ladies I’d probably ditch my CZ and Tokarev.

          • Amplified Heat

            CZ’s ladies are consistently superior (genetically, even), although Glock’s are more rugged…

          • iksnilol

            Yeah… wish I was a police department.

      • PersonCommenting

        You know what the Marines paid for these? 2600 bucks a rifle on the Civilian models. Is the S&W Ars not good enough?

        • iksnilol

          Several marines got injured on the Hillary hole… Thus no S&W guns for them no more.

          • PersonCommenting

            Huh, what do ya mean? Whats the story?

        • supergun

          With all the kickbacks and money under the table, are you surprised?

      • Samuel Millwright

        That’s how i ended up with my 1993 schoolbus yellow geo storm too!

        But you shoulda seen this hooker!!

        Something something BLOWN HEMI if ya know what i mean!

        ^5

        • iksnilol

          Hey, ridicilous colors are the only way to go with sports cars.

          • Yes, but he’s talking about a Geo Storm, not a sports car. LOL

          • iksnilol

            It’s sporty, alright.

    • supergun

      You mis-spelled lookers.

  • Brett baker

    I must sacrifice to St. Eugene.

  • Fast Forward

    At 3.07/5.02 (AR15 Mud Test) it appears that; ‘something,’ of the rifle, possibly the dust cover, is ejected moments before the fired case. Is this correct, or are my eyes deceiving me….also, is this a feature?

    • ostiariusalpha

      The AR-15 has gas ports on the bolt carrier. You were seeing those gas ports blast a chunk of muck away from the ejection port. Yes, it is a feature.

      • Fast Forward

        I’m still curious as one piece of ‘debris’ appears to have definite shape, that it retains during the ejection process. The rest of the ‘mud’ just splatters, as might be expected.

        I’m sure you are correct, but the picture still appears slightly anomalous to my suspicious mind.
        Perhaps, there is an element of Dynamothermal Metamorphism.

        • ostiariusalpha

          The closer I look at it, the more it appears to be a fragment of wood that somehow ended up in the mixture. Ian and Karl need some more quality assurance for their mud production.

          • Fast Forward

            How in heaven could they get a piece of wood in there…….other than by magic?

            This is either; jiggery-pokery, or an optical delusion!

            Without a good explanation, this has to be……Taxi for Ian and Karl!

    • Kivaari

      Probably the mud that was on the exterior of the dust cover.

  • Amplified Heat

    I dunno, you’d have to ask the marines fielding mag-fed M27’s as their replacement suppressing-fire system, lol. This whole premise of stepping back in time to mag-fed LMGs (i.e. the 1930s) makes even less sense than ditching an intermediate rifle round for a full power one in an automatic rifle.

    • MeaCulpa

      Yeah, the USMC seems like they are getting their ideas from FPS-games “naaaa general brah, the SAW is for new f44gs”. Sort of unlearning the lessons of WWII.

  • PersonCommenting

    Touche lol just be nice if it happened.

  • nadnerbus

    If I were a Senator ir Congress creature, I would be inclined to call a hearing regarding why, after recently being strong armed by Congress into settling on the M855A1 for both services for the M4, both branches are now selecting different rifles, in different calibers no less.

    This is an egregious example of military waste, and inter-service redundancy. Supposedly, Goldwater Nichols was supposed to put a damper on this kind of thing.

    I would like to see Mattis rein in some of this. Either both services go to the new rifle and round, or they go with the M4 and M855A1. This free-for-all is ridiculous.

    • Amplified Heat

      It is rather like begging for a McNamara character to come in and knock all these guys down a peg by going over their heads, for better or worse (likely worse, as such a character would likely be coming in with a Democrat administration as part of military cost cutting efforts). It’s as though these high-level procurement guys in the different branches aren’t coordinating their strategy, or something…which would be really stupid considering they have to share supply lines & cooperate in practice.

      • nadnerbus

        In my opinion, this is just opportunistic MIC trough feeding. The general Scales if the industry know there is an opportunity with Trump promising increased military funding, and they are pushing all their wares while the opportunity is greatest. Someone needs to be the grownup on the political side, and make the generals get together and prioritize, not run around like a kid in a candy store.

        • Amplified Heat

          Exactly; that’s where the well-meaning but not necessarily wise/experienced McNamara character comes in, takes charge of the s*** show to end the gravy train, and makes a ham fisted decision based on what sounds like a good idea at the time. Blammo, we end up fielding something that likely hasn’t been perfected yet (depending on what is picked) and requires fifty solid years of development before it stands even with the competition…again. Were the procurement goat rodeo not so greedy in justifying its own existence, such heavy handed measures would not be needed.

          • Kivaari

            The rifle was pretty solid as the M16A1. Little things like beefed up receivers and new stock furniture were the biggest changes until the flat tops appeared. An M16A1 with new stock furniture and a flat top would be just fine. The M4A1 is just fine.

    • BeGe1

      Telling Army/Marines they have to use the same stuff is a bad idea. Army screws it up too much, Marines don’t want to have to be attached to that.

      Let the Marines keep picking and choosing which of the Army’s “improvements” are worth having and which aren’t.

  • Amplified Heat

    Be that as it may, the PMAG2 did fit all the AR-pattern guns in existence, and frankly, a gun as similar to the AR as the 416 has no business having different interface dimensions for something as critically interchangeable as the magazine well. If the 416 had a different style FCG I’d have not held it against them, but expecting NATO to adopt your gun and not have it be identical for something like magazines…it’d be like it they’d made the bolt travel too short for the longest rounds that can feed from an AR.

    • Kivaari

      Didn’t all the then in use metal STANAG magazines fit the HK? It seems that PMags were made for all American AR-pattern rifles and they simply did not know about the HK.

      • Timmah_timmah

        I would say Magpul screwed the pooch, but we must live in the reality we have. Therefore, the updated lower makes sense. It should not be needed, but it is so address the reality in which we actual find ourselves… not the ideal that “should” have occurred. Seems pretty simple to me. But what do I know.

    • Michael

      The PMag very clearly did NOT fit all the AR pattern rifles in existence, because it didn’t fit the HK416, which had been out for years by then…
      The PMag was the oddball, not the HK416, which accepted every other magazine out there…

  • Louis C

    The biggest flaw of the M16 was that it had a straight 20 round magazine and a magazine well to fit it. from the start they should have had a 30 round magazine with a curvature based on what was optimal for the round. The mag. well should have then been based on that magazine. Just because STANAG is a standard doesn’t mean that it isn’t flawed.

  • Kivaari

    That article is worth reading.

  • idahoguy101

    How many infantrymen do the Marines have? It appears that soon they’ll all be armed with HK416 rifled

  • Anytime you want to share ammo with the riflemen.

    HOWEVER… compromising a decent belt fed gun with a magazine feed that (due to the differences between power requirements between lifting and stripping a belt vs. having naked rounds presented by a spring) is wonky, was a bad idea.

    A top fed magazine (like the Stoner AR, or the old Bren and Zb LMGs) actually works very well, especially if you have an AG (even if it’s just the nearest rifleman when you flop behind a log), because the AG can swap mags for you so fast (with a little practice) that it can occur between the normal pauses between bursts… meaning, the gun keeps laying down rounds just as sustained as if it were belt fed (British and Commonwealth Bren teams practiced this, and proved it in combat in a half dozen different wars.)

  • supergun

    Whoa,,,,,I thought I was the only one who talked politics. But you are 100% right. And,,,,and,,,,much of the money stays here.

  • MrSottobanco

    It looks like you are giving up a lot of velocity with such a tiny barrel. I guess urban warfare is in the forecast for the Marines.

  • Colonel K

    I must be missing something here. I thought the M27 was acquired to fill the SAW role, but with an emphasis on close assault burst fire and long range precision fire at the loss of sustained support fire. This was in keeping with the tactics used by the USMC in the current fighting. If the plan now is to arm all their infantrymen with the M27, does that mean everyone is expected to be a modern SAW gunner/designated marksman? I can understand the M249 gunners appreciating the significant weight savings and portability of the M27, but I don’t see the average rifleman appreciating the increased weight of the M27 when compared to the M-4. I keep hearing about tight budgets, yet there always seems to be enough money to buy very expensive rifles and field new uniform designs.

  • Tonewall Jaxon

    maybe its worth it to them to have a really fine weapon.

  • LazyReader

    I thought sole sourcing was against the Berry Amendment. THey needed more than 2 manufacturers to make.

  • Steven Kaspar

    Our military leaders are nothing but a bunch of sell out scumbags f–k hk over priced liberal run anti 2 amendment scumbags!