BREAKING: NRA Disallows 1911s As “Primary Handguns” From Its “Carry Guard” Classes

Released to quite a bit of controversy at the NRA show, the NRA’s Carry Guard program is again the focus of controversy. As listed on the NRA’s Carry Guard website, instructions for prospective students of their “Level 1” program are specifically asked not to bring revolvers or 1911s as “primary firearms” to the classes.  This instruction is added as a note to bringing a full-size or compact handgun:

*NOTE: NRA Carry Guard Level One is designed for training with a semi-automatic handgun (Glock 19/17, Sig P226/P228 or equivalent). We will not allow revolvers or 1911s as your primary firearm in this class.

I can understand the reasoning to NOT want revolvers in a semi-auto class, but the decision to specifically bar the 1911 is most peculiar and likely to draw some ire of the NRA membership and potential student base.

I mean, the instruction simply does not add up. The NRA specifically asks for a “semi-automatic handgun” but then disallows America’s favorite semi-auto? I can understand if the program wants a minimum capacity, but even that does not make sense as they mention bringing backup guns, etc which then has the 1911 allowed:

You should bring a secondary firearm that you carry concealed, as well as a holster for such. We will run the course with a primary carry weapon and then run a course of fire with a secondary or back-up gun to evaluate the differences. Please bring at least 40 rounds of ammo appropriate for your carry firearm for this portion of the class. Revolvers, 1911s and/or subcompacts can be used for this portion of the class. (emphasis added)

If anything, the NRA should have set a type of handgun and impartial requirements. Instead, they are managing to shoot themselves in the foot with Carry Guard yet again…





Frank.K

TFB’s FNG. Completely irreverent of all things marketing but a passionate lover of new ideas and old ones well executed. Enjoys musing on all things firearms, shooting 3-gun, and attempting to be both tacticool AND tactical.


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  • JSmath

    Wonder if that’s written to deliberately exclude double-stack 1911’s as well. Not really seeing the justification for blocking those where the low capacity of standard 1911’s does seem like an issue for a specific course design.

    • The Roaring Emptiness

      The reason is most likely because most 1911s are SAO, not because of capacity. This is a level one class and the overwhelming majority of semi-auto pistols on the market today are DAO and DA/SA. You wouldn’t put a drivers ed student behind the wheel of a car with a dog leg gearbox, you put them behind the wheel of a car they’re most likely going to drive.

      • LGonDISQUS

        Mmmmmm gated shifters……. ♡♡♡♡

      • QuadGMoto

        I’m not so sure that’s it. Most polymer wonder nines (including the BGlock Jarrett looks like he’s about to shoot his leg with) are also effectively SAO.

        • The Roaring Emptiness

          From a technical standpoint, yes, Glocks are more akin to SAO. From the user perspective however, the lack of an external safety and consistent trigger position are why glocks often fall under DAO classification. It’s impossible to accurately categorize striker fired pistols under the single/double action convention as the convention was based entirely on hammer based actions.

          • Alexander Black

            Wouldn’t the car they own be the one they are most likely to drive ? It’s a bit more like telling student that they have to bring their own car but it has to be a center console mounted automatic

          • QuadGMoto

            My primary point of classification is simply on one trigger pull = one firing action. If there’s a malfunction/failure to fire, you cannot simply pull the trigger again. An action must be taken to clear the malfunction, and the same actions can be used for both striker and SAO pistols. With DAO and SA/DA, a second trigger pull can be done to attempt to fire again.

            In short, from a training perspective, the striker guns are closer to SAO than to DAO or DA/SA.

            While you can manually cock the hammer on a SAO hammer pistol, I would think that training to perform the same action as striker pistols is likely better.

      • valorius

        A glock doesnt have a standard mechanism. Should they exclude glocks?

        • The Roaring Emptiness

          Considering they specifically recommend Glocks, no they should not exclude them.

          • valorius

            Nothing like recommending the gun design with the most ND’s to a class of beginners.

          • The Roaring Emptiness

            What better way to ensure it’s a lesson they never forget.

          • m-dasher

            and do you actually have proof of this statistic?…..or are you just parroting internet BS….?

          • WhoTookMyShoe?!

            Valorius is so full of it he can’t keep it to himself so he sits on TFB all day and vomits it up a dozen times every post. Learn to ignore him like your 2nd cousin with the uncontrollable flatulence.

  • Michael Gallagher

    What are they going to do? Send you home with a refund? Not let you participate?

    Tell them it’s your only gun (whether it is or not) and that they can do their job and suck it up.

    Another fight the NRA can’t win.

    .

    • Typically instructors have spare guns for students that either can’t bring guns to the class (like some people living in restrictive states), have their guns break, or are simply so new to guns that they don’t have one of their own.

  • FT_Ward

    Is putting your finger on the trigger while it’s pointed at your foot part of the course?

    Maybe the course is designed for semi-autos with bad triggers.

    • Major Tom

      You mean like Glocks? They might have the worst triggers on the market.

      • Sermon 7.62

        And terrible grips

        • Major Tom

          And the lack of manual safety means an increased risk of shooting your own balls off when holstering.

          • Sermon 7.62

            And that’s the main problem.

          • m-dasher

            if you shoot your balls off while holstering a glock….good, you dont deserve to breed

          • dltaylor51

            I had a Glock 45 barrel burst and blow the slide off the Tupperware frame so that’s the last Glock I fired.I’m not the only one this has happened to I later found out.

          • Robert Kalani Foxworthy

            shooting bare lead?

          • dltaylor51

            Not cast but 230 mil jacketed ball,the barrel swelled up like a frozen water pipe would do and the upper bolt and all came off and back to my arm but I had an insulated Carhart heavy jacket on and that saved serious injury.Had the barrel opened up it would have been a lot better as the pressure would have just burned the gun.My buddy who owned the gun is such a tightwad he used C clamps and two hammers and beat the thing back into shape and bought a new barrel for it and its still shooting to this day and the blowup happened in the late 80s so its a tough gun.

          • Doc

            Happy you survived. I suggest you renew your faith in angels.

          • Doc

            That happened to TWO Taurus .44 mags I had and with factory ammo. I shoot Ruger, S&W, and Colt. Sense a pattern? Like MADE IN THE USA?

          • Doc

            Sorry, but that’s is both hilarious and true. Bad me.

          • jonp

            if you holster with your finger in the trigger guard your ill trained or a fool

          • Major Tom

            I guess you’ve never heard of such things as snags. With a manual safety, you can be as abusive and reckless with the trigger as you want when it’s engaged, it won’t fire even with a finger on the bangswitch and one in the pipe.

            Glocks do not instill that level of confidence. It’s like Lugers a hundred years ago, good performance but you can’t trust em with a holster.

          • Tom Currie

            I’ve heard of “snags” but 99.99999% of “snags” are excuses for finger on the trigger while holstering.

          • raz-0

            One of the biggest sources of snags I’ve encountered running matches, are the damn drawstring cinches/toggles on fleece and nylon outerwear. They are straight up out to kill you.

          • JoelC

            Or worn out, 10 year old leather holsters…

          • Jeremy von Kesselburg

            Plastic gun, kydex holster. Leave the leather for those steel backup guns they mentioned above 🙂

          • I don’t have any problems with my leather holsters. Of course, if a problem arises, I normally spot it right away and make a new holster that fixes the problem.

          • RetiredSOFguy

            My Luger has a manual safety. None of my revolvers do.

            I’m curious what someone is wearing that snags the trigger when reholstering, as opposed to just claiming that to avoid acknowledging their finger was on the trigger.

          • jonp

            My Blackhawks have a great safety. Go ahead and pull the trigger. Throw it against a wall or hammer tent stakes with the butt. Great safety

          • Rap Scallion

            Damn Rugers!

          • AlDeLarge

            Cops have been known to wear out their holster, causing it to crease in just enough to press the trigger on reholster, especially when they try to reholster sitting in a car. Also as mentioned, various pull-strings and other doodads can get caught in the trigger guard. These things happen for real, and people who reholstered with their finger on the trigger think they sound better than the truth.

          • Rap Scallion

            Why in the name of creation would a person draw a weapon from a hip/belt holster while seated in a vehicle, AND THEN attempt to put it back while still seated?????? Was the threat that caused them to pull that smoke wagon gone like smoke at the OK corral…….ya can’tt open the door step out and assess the sit and then reholster?

          • Eddy Martin

            Not to mention the spare tire above the duty belt!

          • john huscio

            In other words pistols with safties let you be lazy and sloppy.

          • Joseph Daugert

            They just may give you a little leeway after you’ve been in a heart pounding adrenaline filled shoot out too. If you’re just talking about range commandos, yea you should be more aware of what you’re doing.

          • DaveGinOly

            Pistols with safeties can be used with a different manual of arms. Draw and put your finger on the trigger, align the sights with the target, take the safety off, fire. Completely appropriate for certain types of firearms, esp. if those are the only types you use.

          • Colonel K

            Dave, I’m an NRA Counselor, and that is not what we teach NRA instructors. Golden rule number 2 is keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot. We also teach everyone to use the manual safeties on firearms but not to trust them. As an example of this I have a Ruger 1022 in the shop that is fitted with a match trigger. If you press the trigger while the safety is engaged, it will not fire. If you then release the safety, it will automatically fire. This is not a flaw in the original Ruger 1022 design or production, but it is a real problem in some guns, for example, the new Ruger Mark IV pistols, nearly all of which have just been recalled because of this type of defect.

          • Dave Parks

            Why are you abusively and recklessly holstering a firearm? No one ever won a gun fight by being the fastest to holster their weapon.

          • Rap Scallion

            Get it back in the bucket fast so when the cops show up they won’t think you are the perp and start shooting……part of the New Carry Drills!

          • jonp

            No one in their right mind puts their finger into the trigger guard for anything other than to fire the gun. I have no idea where you got your training but it seems to be lacking in that aspect.

          • Tom Currie

            Maybe you were just trained by “JAMES JARRETT NRA CARRY GUARD DIRECTOR OF CURRICULUM VETERAN U.S. ARMY GREEN BERET AND LAPD” as shown in the NRA poster drawing with his finger on the trigger.

          • Deb Sullivan

            Not to mention his poor grip! Not sure if want to take a class from someone that doesn’t even practice the basics.

          • John Wisch

            Achieving a high Master Grip is so 2010.

          • Ebby123

            “LAPD” = Automatic disqualifier. They’re one step above NYPD in my book for firearms proficiency.

          • pismopal

            A man from “Wild Flower County” would know.

          • Rap Scallion

            Maybe it is the LAPD part that is sooooo hard to digest after chewing for hours!

          • John Wisch

            What’s your point exactly ? If you are an old fart EXPERT former SF guy or former EXPERT cop you can break Col. Coopers #3 rule for all to see and look up to ? Is that it ? Cool man, So is sweeping each other with loaded weapons in class OK too because military and police sweep each other constantly ??? You treat this guy like Haley in ND Gate. This guy should just own his HABITUAL RUSHED FINGER TO TRIGGER AND BE DONE WITH IT. Instead you are just a gross non-apologist ! Dumb

          • John Wisch

            If your comment was satirical in nature then ignore my previous reply. Thanks.

          • Blue

            While with LAPD James had a flash bang go off in his hand. When they rebuilt his hand he had them build it around the Glock. the only way he can grip the pistol is if his index finger is in the trigger guard.

            I’m not defending his disability at all or the NRA choosing him for this position. I am just explaining why the picture shows what it shows.

          • Tom Currie

            WHY the picture shows what it shows isn’t the problem. The problem is THAT the picture does show what it shows.

            I don’t doubt his skills with a pistol. But as a person who spent most of my career as a training developer, I will absolutely say that knowing how to do something is very helpful in developing training, but knowing the subject is not the only (or even the most important) qualification for a training developer or curriculum developer. Without knowing a lot more about his qualifications AS A TRAINING DEVELOPER there is no way that I would comment on his having been chosen as Director of Curriculum (whatever that means at the NRA).

            What I did comment on, and what I DO criticize is the NRA’s choice of THAT PHOTO for anything to do with basic shooting training (unless it was chosen as a Don’t-Do-This example)

          • Colonel K

            Ditto, Tom!

          • Robert Kalani Foxworthy

            they just seemingly randomly pop off like Remington 700 some times do even with safety that is a design quark of many strikers

          • carryit

            bought my remington 700 30-06 in 78…. i have to let it out sometimes so it doesn’t get bored and chew up the other guns in the safe… it escaped once and went through the neighborhood randomly popping off…. other than that i have NEVER had a problem with a random pop off…

          • john huscio

            Only if you have a sub 70 IQ or know absolutely nothing about most striker fired pistols.

      • Nicks87

        Glocks raped my neighbor’s dog.

        • SPQR9

          Your dog was asking for it.

          • Lol bow wow

            Yeah she was a total DILF and let everyone know it.

          • Doc

            Leave the damn dog alone.

        • Glock

          I never…

          • Ebby123

            QUIT YOUR GLOCKSPLAINING YOU CIS-NORMATIVE SEXIST PIG!! REEEEEEEE!!!

            😛

          • AlDeLarge

            Well there’s your problem.

      • SassyBlackGun

        You go girl, you tell that nasty internet who’s boss. You keep on shooting in that static lock-kneed position, don’t bother to try to shoot while moving, and maybe understand why that Glock trigger is used by more of the world’s professional trigger-pullers than any other.

        • Major Tom

          Aftermarket Glock triggers maybe.

          • milesfortis

            Nope.
            Try a standard smoothface OEM trigger with the only mod being a OEM minus (-) connector.
            No other work, hand honing, polishing or dot-minus connector. Not even any special springs.
            I know, because that’s how we built them.

          • I’mBaaaatmaaaan!

            lipstick on a PIG…

          • john huscio

            I don’t find the factory trigger in my 17/19 to be an impediment to putting a whole Lotta rounds real fast in a roughly fist size group in the center of a target at 7 yards. To me, that’s more a than adequate trigger.

          • milesfortis

            It works just fine for the vast majority. I have no problems with people keeping one “box stock”.

            We determined that most of the stuff out there really isn’t necessary, just the smooth face trigger, “minus” connector & Pierce ‘grip plug’. Sights were at the shooters discretion from a list of approved makers e.g. Dawson Precision, Trijicon.

            Your personal regimen should now be to extend your range, at your speed and accuracy, until you get to about the 50 foot mark.

        • Obi Sean

          Because their departments got a deal on them and that’s what they were issued?

          • Anomanom

            I would add, because the manual of arms is so simple that departments can skip adequate training.

        • Stuki Moi

          “don’t bother to try to shoot while moving, and maybe understand why that Glock trigger is used by more of the world’s professional trigger-pullers than any other.”

          You mean, is used to miss the target with every single round from a 17 round magazine, on account of insisting on shooting while moving, instead of shooting THEN moving, then repeating?

        • Marty Tarver

          Squeeze the trigger, don’t pull it.
          😂 Sorry, boot camp flashback!

          • John Wisch

            You are close. It is Press the Trigger. They all go bang the last one is just the most accurate.

        • jonp

          Except a certain police department in PA that the Capt ordered to turn in all of their Glocks after the third hero shot himself in the leg pulling the firearm out by the trigger like Major Tom and Mr. Jarrett

        • David169

          What is this don’t shoot while moving? I have always been taught to crab walk (sideways) while shooting so as to not present a stationary target which is easier to hit.

        • dub baillie

          Because Glock is the lowest bidder perhaps?

        • Danilushka Ozera

          And Bud Light ($2.03 B in sales 2017 sales so far) is the beer preferred by more beer drinkers than any other so it must be the best. Above all else, people are cheap to a fault and value that over safety, reliability, and performance. Glocks are cheap and that is why they are popular. #1 reason. I’ll keep my Sigs thanks.

      • m-dasher

        you clearly have never shot a glock….ever.

        • Stephen Brown

          Isn’t THAT the truth? I like my Kahr CW40 for EDC. Nice, long-stroke, somewhat heavy (think DA revolver-esque) “deliberate” pull required for discharge. Not a gun for trophy-seekers, but great for it’s intended purpose.

        • Jason Adams

          Or most striker fired guns for that matter.

        • dub baillie

          You’ve clearly never shot a pistol with a halfway decent trigger ever. Glocks really suck bad and it is amazing the amount of denial about it

          • Capn Stefano

            I own quite a few different handguns (my current primary CCW is a Witness Elite Match 10MM) and while Glocks aren’t my favorites, they are reliable, sturdy weapons I have no problem depending on. My wife carries a G23. It’s my opinion that almost all Glock kabooms are operator error (incorrect handloads, etc)

      • Ark

        That feeling when a gun half the price of your gun has a better trigger out of the box…

      • n0truscotsman

        Anybody who says that is basically FOS.

        Will you tell me with a straight face that the M&P or HK USP is better? LOL

        • Porty1119

          I’ll tell you with a straight face that they’re all piss-poor examples of weapons systems. Any repeating centerfire long gun will thrash any pistol in a gunfight outside phone booth distance.

          • El Duderino

            Of course…but the folks at 7-11 tend to frown when you walk in to get some Doritos and a Snapple Iced Tea with an AR at the low ready.

            We’re talking about firearms one can easily carry and conceal on the body without something from The Matrix’s wardrobe room.

          • n0truscotsman

            ^Truth!

      • guest

        I think box-stock Springfield XDs from prior to the “Mod 2” release take that particular boobyprize, if we’re talking about “modern” striker-fired semiauto service pistols–heavy, mushy, spongy, with crunchy fits and starts, like dragging an angry tomcat off a roof by his tail. For a C-note a gunsmith can polish the striker, sear, sides of the trigger where it pivots in the frame, and so on, and make it about as usable as a standard Glock trigger out of the box, I guess, at which point you could have bought a Glock for the same money and had a much wider variety of holsters, aftermarket sights, and so on.

        Or if you’re talking about handguns generally? Anything DA/SA in general (DA/SA in a semiauto is the answer to a question no one asked, and I am happy to see it join SA-only revolvers and flintlock muskets in the bin with “yesterday’s great ideas”), and Makarovs, Beretta 92s, Walther P1/P38 (from which Beretta “borrowed” the mechanism) all made me cringe.

        Browning Hi-Powers with the mag safety left in are uniformly purely awful (12+ pounds and crunchy) but removing it has in my experience always resulted in a quite nicely usable trigger, except perhaps for the extremely long reset inherent to the BHP design–it’s got an awful lot of takeup before you hit the place where you start moving the sear, and to reset the trigger it’s got to go all the way back forward.

        Worst trigger I ever felt on a handgun, though, was a Nagant revolver–it had to be somewhere past twenty pounds, like trying to squeeze the handle of an old Arrow staple gun with just your index finger while trying to keep the sights in line.

        • Gunn

          Now I run a G19, but I would note the Sig SP2022 as a gun with a really terrific DA/SA trigger out of the box, which is in the same price and size range as a 19.

          • john huscio

            The sp2022 is a great gun, but its definitely heftier than a G19

          • Gunn

            True, which is why I said “size range.” Sanding down the baseplates helps.

        • Gunn

          Also, props for the XD hate.

          I have no idea why people like those guns. The ‘smiths I know say they’re garbage on the inside and a PITA to work on, they have that goofy-ass grip safety that can lock the damn thing up, the trigger is alright but meh, and they’re boat anchors. Also, you know, [insert obligatory GRIP ZONE!!! joke here].

          • Dan

            And what did your smith friends say the reason was for them being so difficult to work on. Haven’t had the same experience. In fact support from the factory wise they are much more pleasent no questions asked to work with when needing to resolve an issue or get a part. Maybe your friends are a bit biased? I personally dont care, a gun is a gun and I just can’t see in any way why anyone outside of fanboy bias would think and XD or M&P would be harder.

          • survivor50

            Just to upset the competition, I pulled out the as is, out of the box XD-Mod 2, 4″ service pistol, with the “GRIPE ZONE”, at the STEEL CHALLENGE, and shot 4th and 3rd against EVERY tricked out gun there was, “OPEN” and IRON…and expert shooters. That pistol was not supposed to even be able to HIT steel, let alone PLACE.
            WHAT HAPPENED ???
            I do enjoy PI$$ING off “Fan Boys” for fun.
            It ain’t the gun !!! Sometimes…

          • Gunn

            I mean, I’ve made bowling pins dance at 70 yards with an XDm, and shot at big USPSA match in another state with a borrowed competition model XDm, and acquitted myself pretty well.

            Sounds like you are a skilled shooter– it’s the Indian, not the arrow– but that doesn’t mean the XD is on the same level as a Glock, M&P, VP9, etc. etc.

          • Michael

            Out of all the handguns I’ve shot over the years, the only one that had such a terrible trigger that I would never get another was a Sig 290-rs. Looong pull and not smooth. I prefer the XDs to the Glock, but the 1911 is tops.

          • Gunn

            Lots of fiddly little parts that don’t really cooperate with you, is my understanding.

            One of my friends is definitely biased– he carries a Beretta and thinks any gun without a hammer is goofy. But the other is platform-agnostic and runs a CZ because it’s what works for him.

            What I have read from professional armorers and trainers says that the XD series guns have significantly more failures than others. With the exception of the XD-S, which is one of the best guns in the niche it occupies.

        • .45

          12+ pounds for a non neutered Hi Power? Better let mine know, it is definitely failing to live up to that promise. Don’t have a trigger pull gauge, but I doubt it is even half that…

        • David169

          Back in the 60’s after the Watts riot that Browning HP magazine safety saved two policemen’s lives.They responded to a call (from a phone booth) that a woman was being gang raped in an alley. The police came into the alley with their flashing lights and had a car pull in front of them and another behind them. A person jumped in front of the police car with a Browning HP loaded with one in the pipe and a full 13 shot magazine. As the soon to be deceased slapped his left hand onto the pistol for a two handed grip he hit the magazine release and dropped the magazine rendering the pistol useless. The cops hit the gas and squashed him between them and the front blocking vehicle.

          • DunRanull

            BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!! That there is gut-laffin FUNNY, I don’t care WHO or WHAT ya are!!! LOL

      • Glock

        Watch it there buster…

      • Kivaari

        I think they are great but I started combat shooting using revolvers 50 years ago. I like that a Glock is like using a high capacity revolver.

      • Haulin’ Oats

        The solution is to use a Hudson H9 when ever it comes out. A 1911 Has the best trigger but the H9 technically isn’t a 1911. Win.

      • john huscio

        You must not have tried alot of polymer pistols to come to that conclusion.

        • BR

          I’ve had all of them over the years. The best so far is the Canik. Thousands of rounds, no problems and an excellent trigger. Cheap too.

      • azntactical

        Worst? You’ve apparently have never shot a M&P pistol have you?

      • John Wisch

        That was a stupid comment, I hope that you are wiser than your comment makes you look. The funny part is you got 15 idiots to vote you up on that same dumb comment. I love 1911’s but daily carry is a G-26 with a +2 GRIP EXTENDER. Reliable, accurate, dependable, with a tough as nails finish, and 13 rounds on tap for 500 bucks. It;s a no brainer. Plus it conceals so well I don’t even think about it. If Glock ain’t for you fine, I’m no Fan Boy. The damn things just work, aint no reason to slam something that is a great choice for the masses.

    • neckbone

      Actually this blog owes it to its readership to follow up on why the 1911 and revolver are not allowed. You don’t dangle that tidbit out without explanation. Hoping this writer follows up with that. I mean it’s only the most commented on story in recent memory on this blog!

      • Marty Tarver

        I think the writer was asking the same question about the 1911. He also said he can understand why a revolver was not allowed at “semiautomatic” carry class but he couldn’t understand about the 1911. And, why 1911 is ok as a backup but not primary. But, more information would’ve made the story beneficial for the reader.

    • Risky

      This has been discussed before with the trigger discipline concerns in the image. The man had his hand surgically reconstructed; this is how he has to draw. So while it looks like his finger is reaching into the trigger guard he’s actually holding it as straight as it can get.

      http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/05/03/potd-nra-carry-guard-director-curriculum/

      “Torn in a grenade accident, the hand was rebuilt with bone from a rib
      and tissue from his backside. Jarrett says he gave surgeons a pistol as
      a mold so his grip and trigger finger would be saved.”

    • Libertarian Advocate

      Why you naughty boy. You weren’t supposed to notice that egregious error.

    • I was wondering if I was the only one who caught that.

    • Rap Scallion

      Definitely NOT 1911’s then…………The NRA seems to be evolving into the new sleek, elitist, chrome plated, NRA……kinda like the old Democrat party evolved into Obama, Hillary, Bernie Socialist Progressive Liberal Communist Party!

    • Jordan

      Great way to shoot your self in the foot or leg! Don’t put your finger on the trigger until you have target acquisition!

    • DaveGinOly

      It’s a 1911, he probably hasn’t taken the thumb safety off. Also see he doesn’t have that high grip we’re taught to have on a semi-auto. His grip is so low, he probably hasn’t yet put his thumb on the safety!

    • Doug Mauer

      No it is not,just for clarification,James’s hand is formed like that from a Vietnam War injury,i personally know and was trained by him and he does not teach finger in the trigger unless you are going to shoot.

  • BattleshipGrey

    Wow, Mr. Jarret there looks like he’s going to change his name to Tex Grebner.

    I could see having students only working on basics for a level 1 class and if you’re trying to teach across 10 different platforms it could take time away from general instruction. But I would also be annoyed if I couldn’t use my intended carry gun.

    • xTeleDude

      Last class I was in the 1911 guys kept fumbling. Part operator problem and part instructor problem. Just happened that the 1911 guys had the same instructor looking over their shoulder. Was pretty clear that instructor didn’t know how to run a 1911. The guys with Glocks & M&Ps ran the class problem free.

      • .45

        The only handgun classes I’ve been in were run by these two cops who were avid gun nuts who had or presently owned one of every handgun they could find. They knew what they were doing with every gun on the line, including both Glocks and 1911s alike. It was quite nice, though the only trouble I needed much help with was that my new Colt .45 didn’t much care for the cheap plastic snapcap things they gave everyone to practice with. Worked fine until it got dirty, then it would refuse to extract the #$%@ things. After breaking off the plastic rim and requiring a brass rod to knock them out two or three times I had to just pretend I had a jam and go through the Tap-Rack-Bang business on my own.

      • jonp

        That’s a problem with the students or the instructor not the platform. Sounds like everyone is wanting to dumb it down to one type of firearm for sympicities sake. Nothing wrong with that but don’t blame it on the handgun

  • Spencerhut

    Get some trigger discipline, then you can start to consider telling me what I can carry as a primary sidearm you nitwit.

    • Veloxto

      Semantics at best. Its just an advertising picture. Also what you want to carry outside the course doesn’t matter.

      • int19h

        The advertising picture is supposed to advertise what’s happening in the course, right? Well…

        • Veloxto

          Yes and no. No advertising picture for any course shows us whats happening in the course. How many times have we seen a picture of someone in coveralls holding a wrench or spanner to a random part of machinery?

      • Mike Butler

        Well, it would matter to anybody who owns only revolvers and 1911s.

      • Kevin Craig

        It’s just a picture advertising the guy in charge of the course.

        • Kivaari

          Yeah, being very unprofessional and unsafe.

          • Kevin Craig

            Thank you for reinforcing the point that I was reinforcing from everyone who has commented on the picture (at least everyone who wasn’t an apologist).

          • M40

            In 1983, Jarrett was testing a prototype grenade which went off unexpectedly. His right hand was shredded, and the doctors wanted to amputate it entirely.

            One surgeon thought his hand could be saved, and managed to reconstruct it by cobbling together pieces of rib and tissue harvested from his backside. Jarrett actually gave the surgeon a pistol to use as a ‘mold’ of sorts and told him he needed to be able to grip a gun, otherwise the hand wasn’t worth saving.

            The surgery worked and he was able to regain the ability to shoot. However, he has a permanently deformed ‘claw’ hand with a noticeably shortened trigger finger and no web between the thumb and index finger. So while the picture appears to show his finger bent inwards, that is actually just a shortened finger extended alongside the trigger (not into the guard).

    • Chris

      The dude almost lost his hand to a grenade ,had lots of reconstructive surgery and asked surgens to form his hand around a 1911 grip during reconstructive surgery ,so that is why hand is in that position !
      Don’t know why the no 1911 rule …is glock a sponsor of the course ?

      • Kulibin762

        Did he lose his left hand to grenade also? Who cares why his hand is in this position. Bottom line it is. Would you take tango lessons from a guy in a wheel chair?

        • Chris

          Depends , what if the instructor was a world class ( ? ) competition winner for 20 years ! Then got hit by a drunk driver and ended up in a wheelchair ! Did that make him any less knowledgeableof what it takes to win ? He knows what the judges want to see ! And he has female (and male ) dance partners to demonstrate techniques !
          You sound like an ableist ,Dude ,not cool !

      • QuadGMoto

        In that case, then he can’t really do any different than what’s in the picture. But without knowing that backstory, it looks really, really bad. IMHO, they should have used a different picture either way.

      • So that means he can disregard the safety rules? I don’t think so.

        • Chris

          His finger doesn’t touch the trigger , he just can’t lay it out straight along the frame ,cause it won’t straighten enough ! No breaking any rule if the trigger isn’t being touched till sights are on target and it is time to fire !

          • M40

            The surgery worked and he was able to regain the ability to shoot. However, he has a permanently deformed ‘claw’ hand with a shortened trigger finger and no web between the thumb and index finger.

            It’s the shortened trigger finger that everyone is seeing in this picture and assuming it’s into the trigger guard. It isn’t. He’s basically missing the last 3/4 inch of his trigger finger, but has learned to work with it anyways. Kudos to him for overcoming a terrible setback.

        • Chris

          He’s not disregarding any rules because he is not actually touching the trigger , he just can’t lay his finger straight along the frame /slide because of his mangled hand. If he doesn’t touch trigger till he is on target , then ,get over it ,Dude! Cause no rule is broken !
          Now , I do not know why the course prohibits 1911s though ? Is Glock a sponsor ?

        • m-dasher

          so what? the guy can never shoot again?

          moron

        • Chris

          He doesn’t disregard any safty rules Cause he isn’t touching the flipping trigger ,you are confused dude ! You don’t see a stretched out flat along the frame finger placement so you assume ” finger on the trigger ” And your are wrong ! His finger and hand was reconstructed with part of a rib and tissue from his buttocks ,Dude lighten up , it is optically different and not what range Nazis expect ,but his finger is not on the trigger ,so chill !

  • Kurt

    Just the NRA loosing some more respect. Sort of like disinviting USCCA to NRA 2017 because we saw how much money they are making and now we want that for ourselves. The NRA is not TOTALLY about gun rights, it is about making money to pay higher ups in the NRA. Yes I agree we still need the NRA to help with laws and lobbying. But their actions in other areas are despicable.

    • Jeez Louise

      Maybe they should separate the NRA-ILA (which defends our gun rights) from the rest of the NRA (which primarily is aimed at making money).

      • It is. No money flows from the NRA non-profits to the NRA PACs.

        But the two can’t exist without the other. When the NRA Lobbyist goes to a Congress Critters office how many NRA members are in that district is an important consideration for the wishy washy on guns politicians. If the NRA directly represents 1,000 members in your district and your last election is won by a margin of less than 2,000 votes that is a lot of sway.

  • USMC03Vet

    Translation: 1911 too expert for level 1 plebs.

    • Major Tom

      Better translation: Muh Glocks!

    • Anonymoose

      Honestly 1911s or Beretta 92s should be the handguns everyone should learn first so that they don’t have to go back later in life and relearn taking the safety off while drawing. Also, notice that all the “we dropped a GLOCK(TM) out of a helicopter/airplane/roof and it still works!” stunts had the Glock in Condition 3.

      • Spencerhut

        Yes! 1911 and B92 first for EVERYONE! Teaching first timers two guns with safeties that go the opposite direction is the bestest idea EVER!

        • Dr. Longfellow Buchenrad

          To be fair, you can use the same downward sweep of your thumb motion to disengage both styles.

          • Jeffersonian

            Ummmm, NO? A 1911 safety goes DOWN to release, a Beretta 92’s hammer-drop safety goes UP AND FORWARD. Unless you’re thinking of the ancient ones with frame-mounted safeties which almost no one has when you refer to “B92”.

          • guest

            Hmm. Having shot both, I can see maybe that you could, if you were in a situation where you didn’t know which one they were going to issue you from the arms rack for duty any given morning, try a sort of compromise grip during the draw, where you could hold your thumb high (to hit the Beretta’s slide mounted safety and pivot it forward) as you were getting a grip on the gun, then sweep the thumb down to hit a 1911 type frame-mounted safety and “wipe” it downward to take it off.

            Granted, that does seem like a contrived situation, and an unnecessarily slow and complex method of gripping the firearm before drawing it. But it’s the only thing that comes to me.

          • Kivaari

            Carry the de-cock only version of the M92.

          • Dr. Longfellow Buchenrad

            I guess words werent enough

        • Anonymoose

          Except that proper draw of a 92 does not necessarily go against the proper draw of a 1911. You flip the Beretta/S&W/Walther safety up with your thumb as you’re reaching for the grip. You flip the 1911/HK/SIG SAO/M&P safety down as you’re pulling the gun out of the holster.

          • Spencerhut

            Two completely opposite movements . . . easily confused by novices. “Down for dead” is a well known phrase in the gun community for a reason.

        • Some Guy

          You seem to have confused the word “or” for the word “and”

      • int19h

        You misspelled “CZ-75”. Twice.

        • Anonymoose

          That also!

      • Anomanom

        Except not the Beretta 92, which was designed by and for people with giant gorilla mittens for hands.

    • Nicks87

      Maybe it’s just an issue of capacity and their course of fire. It might get too confusing when 1911 and revolver guys are doing twice as many reloads. I don’t think its about safety or usefulness of the weapon.

      • Alexander Black

        Can’t be capacity as they allow compacts

        • Nicks87

          Compacts like a Glock 43 or Compacts like a Glock 26? A G43 is going to be a back up gun but a G26 could be a primary.

          • xTeleDude

            Typically a compact is a gun with a 4ish inch barrel like a G19 or P229. Both carry 15 rd mags.

          • Sermon 7.62

            The smaller ones are called subcompact

      • Stuki Moi

        Touche!

      • Don

        That point is moot, my double stack 1911 aka 2011 carries just as many in the mag. But it would be interesting to hear what their reasoning is.

        • Nicks87

          They didnt say 2011s were disallowed.

      • Kevin Craig

        Then perhaps they should have specified capacity, instead of disallowing one pistol by name, while allowing single stack compact 9s with lower capacity.

        • Nicks87

          Wouldnt a single stack compact 9mm be in the back up category?

          • Kevin Craig

            Compacts are specifically allowed as the main gun.

            They disallowed 1911s of any capacity, while allowing compacts of any capacity.

    • Porty1119

      Which is funny, because 1911s are great pistols for beginners. The grip angle fits most people nicely, the trigger is excellent, and the steel frame reduces felt recoil to comfortable levels. They’re not the best CC pistols for all applications, but neither is a P226.

      • Major Tom

        Plus 1911’s have over a century of institutional experience both military, LEO and civilian of how to shoot, how NOT to shoot, how to do X or Y, how to field strip and clean and a million other things.

        It’s got an absolutely massive knowledge base.

      • Matt Gibbs

        1911’s just hit what i point it at, they are just super.

    • retrocon

      That’s what I was thinking.

      I went to the site to check it out, and noticed that all of their line up of instructors are former Green Baret and Seals.

      While I have great respect for their training, what makes them good for civilian self defense training? Is carry guard teaching you to protect against terror attacks? Urban combat? Inner city badassdom?

      Why not get some lawyers who shoot, instead? Or former MPs, or cop academy trainers… Jarrett counts for that, people who deal with shoot/don’t shoot situations instead of people who deal with pretty much just “shoot” situations?

      Am I the only one who thinks this?

      Now, if they say they just want to favor veterans, I am good with that answer.

  • Ri Coon

    Just means I will look at usacarry, or uslawshield instead of carryguard…..

    • m-dasher

      lets be honest…..youre not gonna get either one……

      • Ri Coon

        I already have US law shield, for both myself and my wife.

  • Sledgecrowbar

    Statistically, “America’s favorite semi-auto” is the Glock 9 mm.

    I would point out the single-action-only, manual safety 1911 as being slightly more advanced to use for self defense than something with the controls and operation of a Glock, but really, there are tons of people who carry a 1911 so this is odd. It’s bad business to disallow them.

    Also if a class asks me to bring less than 500 rounds of ammo, it’s not a class, it’s a proficiency test. Decent rifle classes expect you to go through 3000 rounds in a weekend. That’s more than halfway to an extractor replacement, so most guys bring a spare parts kit, and the smart ones bring a spare rifle.

    • It is a 3 day intro level class, the round counts are going to be low. Between mindset, basic safety, how to draw, sight alignment, and trigger control. You don’t have much time to blow through that much ammo.

      I would seriously question an intro level class that shoots 1,000 rounds a day. Because you aren’t spending the time that they need on the fundamentals. Not only that but they typically don’t have their gear well thought out, nor have the knowledge or stamina to really make use of that round count.

      I’m a competitive shooter even though all my gear has been streamlined, and I spend a good two weeks a year doing 1,000 rounds a day on the practice range during my train ups to certain major matches. It is still a long day for me, with my tendons, and muscles getting sore by the end of the day.

    • valorius

      America’s favorite semi auto is actually the Ruger LCP. It outsells any model of Glock.

      • Klaus Von Schmitto

        Currently, America’s favorite semi auto is the Ruger LCP. Historically, over the last 100 years or so, America’s favorite semi auto is actually the 1911.

        • ozzallos .

          So you’re saying it’s the Bible of handguns 😉

        • Autistic Screech from SbtB

          Link to sources please.

          • Klaus Von Schmitto

            http://www.sightm1911.com/1911Production.htm to start. You can add up the production numbers yourself. This doesn’t include all the Stars, LLamas, SIGs, civilian Remingtons, Dan Wessons, etc, etc, etc ever made though. But if you don’t believe that more 1911 type automatic pistols have been built than any other type of automatic pistols (with the exception of the Makarov or another Russian pistol), you don’t know much about guns.

          • ActionPhysicalMan

            Here is one source.
            http://www.gungenius.com/top-selling
            Over 2016 it looked like the LCP was number one on Gunbroker.

      • CanIgetNICScheck!?

        As someone who works behind the counter for almost 8 years, at least in my AO (NW MT), I can call BS after looking at our Glock stocking dealer numbers vs. our Ruger stocking dealer numbers. The LCP was popular 3+ years ago, but not so much anymore.

        Our top-5 best selling handguns:

        1. Glock 19 Gen4
        2. Tie between Glock 43 and Glock 20 Gen4
        3. Kimber 1911s (really there are too many models/SKUs by them to single any one out)
        4. S&W Shield
        5. Glock 34 Gen4

        • As a Montana resident I can verify this.

          • Kivaari

            As a salesman in North Idaho I can say for certain that at our store very few M1911s are sold. Most sold handguns continue to be Glocks when modern guns are concerned. We do specialize in collector firearms, but you can’t judge sales by the number of 100 year old S&Ws you sell.

        • valorius

          Glock is a MANUFACTURER, the Fourth Generation is an entire lineup, The Ruger LCP is a specific MODEL.

          From the motley fool investment site, based on sales of a specific MODEL, Dec 18, 2016:

          1) Ruger LCP
          2) S&W Shield
          3) Glock 19
          4) Glock 43
          5) Springfield XD-S

          That’s based on actual sales figures. The most popular handgun in America is the Ruger LCP.

          Feel free to google it.

    • Jarrad

      3000? What rifle class is that? Most 2-3 day clas say 1500 at most

    • Anonymoose

      It’s basic handgun safety and learning to shoot for CCW, not a TACTICALOPERATOR! Magdump-While-Pirouetting class.

    • Kivaari

      After being in the gun business and police work for my adult working life I can say with certainty that very few people actually carry M1911s. Most try it for awhile, then they end up with a more reasonable gun and that is often a Glock of some kind or a J-frame revolver.

  • PK

    America’s favorite semi-auto handgun is probably the G19 or G17, at this point. The 1911 isn’t as popular as it once was, and a handgun course geared toward 15+ rounds at a time would have 1911 users (and those who use subcompacts and revolvers) frustrated.

    I can understand the general thinking of such a rule change.

    • Porty1119

      Most people don’t carry full-size pistols; 6-10 round magazines should be assumed for a “carry guard” course.

    • valorius

      The Ruger LCP outsells all models of Glock.

      • FacePalmer

        based on what source? Hey look I can something up. Gaston Glock cures cancer.

        • between “can” / “something”

          ^make

        • valorius

          From the investment site Motley fool, Dec 18, 2016:

          1) Ruger LCP
          2) S&W Shield
          3) Glock 19
          4) Glock 43
          5) Springfield XD-S

          That’s based on actual sales figures. The most popular handgun in America is the Ruger LCP

          Feel free to google it.

    • Alexander Black

      Again can’t be capacity as they specifically allow compacts

  • Dave Buck

    The NRA is really starting to lose my respect. What a naff thing to tell prospective students. What if it is the only semi-auto pistol you own?

    • Porty1119

      It is in my case.

    • QuadGMoto

      Then you’re a beginner, making the beginner course too advanced for you.

      Uh, wait… something about that doesn’t add up.

      </sarc>

    • Major Tom

      What if a revolver is the only thing I own? (In my case it isn’t.)

  • This sort of bureaucratic idiocy is supposed to be confined to governments.
    Could it be that the NRA has been infected by the very thing it is supposed to be shielding us from?

    • Edeco

      Of course. To be fair they’ve always been establishment.

  • Jeez Louise

    Then they should rename it the “Polymer Wonder-Nine Class” to be transparent. I am not a fan of the 1911 but even I find this rule egregious.

    • Amanofdragons

      Then why would they specifically name the 226/228 in the note? Otherwise valid point.

      • Anonymoose

        Because no one cares about SIGs anyway when GLOCK(TM) is the preferred gun for the class and everything in life. Beginners don’t start out with SIGs unless they got a really good deal on a police trade-in.

        • Sgt. Stedenko

          My first handgun was a new SIG 1911

  • idahoguy101

    Are there many law enforcement departments that still allow their cops either revolvers or SAO semiautos as primary carry weapons? As much as I know this grates on old timers it’s today’s reality

    • The 1911 still has some traction in LE. Mostly in SWAT Teams and special units. And honestly that seems to be more about “We are special, thus we shouldn’t be required to use the general issue gun.” Rather than the 1911s being that great of a pistol.

      • Raven

        FBI HRT still uses ’em, I think. Some LAPD special unit uses Kimbers, too.

        • ARCNA442

          Pretty sure HRT has transitioned to Glocks with either green or tan frames.

      • kamen_volk

        1911s are extremely accurate and were the only ones to survive the incredibly high standards that FBI HRT had for a pistol at the time. That’s why a lot of specialized units and SWAT used them as well. FBI HRT now uses Glocks now as do most departments.
        The only law enforcement agency that still uses 1911s is the Texas Rangers, but those are personal preference.

        • The Texas Rangers are a special unit within DPS.

        • Gray

          Loveland PD, in Colorado (Northern I think) use the 1911 as their issue sidearm.

      • Anonymoose

        I saw an ad for police trade-in SVI custom double-stack .40 1911s recently. It boggled my mind what SWAT unit would buy such things. I guess maybe they bought Bushmaster semi-auto M4s instead of full-auto SCARs and bought the SVIs with the leftover funds. lol

    • Yes there are several departments that allow the 1911 to be carried on duty.

    • Rusty S.

      Mine did and still does.

    • Porty1119

      I’ve seen it with my local PD. Many sheriff’s offices out here are so small that I wonder if they actually issue anything.

  • I continue to be drastically unimpressed with the NRA Training Program, and the NRA in General. The NRA’s Training is like the lowest common denominator of firearms training… The Walmart of Training. But this… This is not even that good… this is VODA level Training.

  • Raptor Fred

    What about the Taurus Shake n’ Bang autos?

  • Zundfolge

    I can kind of understand 1911s, but revolvers?

    [insert picture of Archer]
    Do you want to get people to switch to USCCA?
    ‘Cause that’s how you get people to switch to USCCA.

    • USCCA isn’t any better.

      Based on what I’ve seen most of what they do is classroom based. The shooting part is up to the instructor, and the classes I’ve seen don’t seem much different than the typical CWP course around here.

  • Malthrak

    From a practical point of view, from the idea of actually running the class…I get it.

    From the standpoint of trying to service the largest possible customer base…well, that’s shooting themselves in the foot so to speak.

  • Bones McGillicuddy

    Times change…..I took some classes with James here in Phoenix in 1989 and 1990, and if you showed up with a semi-auto that was not a 1911, it was a faux-pas. There was the old “plastic pistol” taboo back then. James is top notch with firearms and a fine, freedom-loving individual. Now the 1911 and the revolver are disallowed in these classes. Times change.

  • Tym O’Byrne

    Why does James have his finger on the trigger? Is the target at his feet? I dunno, maybe its an optical illusion from a bad picture….

    • IIRC his hand was injured as part of his service. He can’t straighten his trigger finger.

      • Tym O’Byrne

        Thanks, i;ll never take picking my nose for granted anymore…

        • tazman66gt

          only professional operators can use either finger.

          • Tym O’Byrne

            Reminds me of a story about a NRA instructor i got mad at once. When i was 5, Pa made me give up prime time tv viewing in order to take a NRA safety course when we lived on Vandenberg AFB. After i passed the course i went to the table to get my certificate, the instructor asks me how old i am, then tells me im to young to get the certificate!?! Still mad about that.

          • Stephen Paraski

            My Grandpa was my NRA Instructor and I was 5 also.

      • Anonymoose

        Seems like a good reason to learn to shoot lefthanded.

      • M40

        It actually IS fairly straight in the picture. He’s missing about 3/4″ of that finger (and has no webbing between thumb and index finger).

  • valorius

    Excluding any type of handgun is stupid.

    • Anonymoose

      What if I roll up to the class with a Draco? lol

    • Sermon 7.62

      No, it’s fine. The single-action guns are stupid.

      • valorius

        Glock is a single action gun. All these modern striker fired pistols that have copied the Glock mechanism/trigger are single action guns.

        • Sermon 7.62

          That’s right.

          Glock is a stupid gun. But since there is no means to de-cock it so it’s not a single action gun

          • Cymond

            By that logic, the AR-15 isn’t a single-action trigger, either.

          • Kivaari

            Why de-cock a gun that isn’t cocked. Glocks are partially staged and require a DA pull to fully cock and release the striker.

          • Sermon 7.62

            It’s not a DA pull, because the trigger’s weight is a like SA.

          • valorius

            The inability to decock many of these modern striker fired pistols is actually a huge design flaw, in my opinion.

          • Sermon 7.62

            I think the same.

          • valorius

            Companies should’ve copied the HK P7 in a polymer frame instead. It can be cocked and and de-cocked (and cocked again) with a simple squeeze of the grip, and it has an absolutely magnificent trigger pull. For years HK people on HK forums said a polymer framed P7 is impossible due to it’s gas retardation operating system, but the Walther CCP has proven that theory to be completely wrong, as it uses the same gas retardation system of the P7.

            A modern polymer framed P7 would be the ultimate combat handgun IMO.

          • Sermon 7.62
          • valorius

            It looks futuristic and has a safety- i like it.

        • Kivaari

          The Glock is never cocked until the trigger is pulled. It is staged part way to the rear but requires what is essentially a DA trigger pull to complete the act. That is unlike the SA XD, which has the firing pin held fully to the rear. I trust Glocks and dislike the XD-type single action.

          • valorius

            The glock design is a single action gun with no ability to decock the action for all practical intents and purposes, it was labeled as a double action only gun by a bureaucrat at the ATF.

          • Kivaari

            The Glock is never cocked while at rest. It takes that extra 40% of DA trigger work to move the striker to the rear and fire the gun. While doing so it disengages the FP safety at the last instant of firing.

          • valorius

            Oh, you mean you gotta pull the trigger like .2″ to get it to fully cock? Dude, it’s a single action. C’mon now.

          • valorius

            Please- for all intents and purposes it is a single action. While it may not be exactly like carrying around a cocked series 80 1911 with the safety disengaged in a technical sense, in a practical sense that is exactly what it is like doing.

          • Kivaari

            NO!

          • valorius

            YES!

      • Porty1119

        Have you ever owned one?

        • Sermon 7.62

          I had a Browning

    • Kevin Harron

      I dunno. I think excluding the Nambu might be a good idea. 😛

    • xTeleDude

      Would agree with this if I hadn’t just been in a class where the shooters running 1911s kept holding up the class. Perhaps a 1911 specific class would be a workable idea.

      • valorius

        Perhaps? There have been literally millions of classes with 1911s that went off without a hitch over the decades.

  • sdb

    Solution: 2 classes

  • RetroG

    Dumb. I took Gunsite 250 and was the only person in the class with a 1911. I learned everything the rest of the class did, and became the poster child for mag changes. The students with 15+ round DAO did a third of the mag changes I did, and the poor slob with the Sig DA/SA had more problems with the long, heavy DA pull than anybody else had with anything else. Jesus, a thumb safety and proper grip isn’t brain surgery!

    Is the NRA getting kickbacks from someone?

    • Anonymoose

      I’ve never had a problem with DA/SA pistols and I like shooting DA revolvers. It’s good exercise!

      • RetroG

        Oh, I like DA revolvers. And I own a P226 with the traditional DA/SA trigger. Unfortunately, the trigger weight on the DA is stupidly heavy, while the SA is great. I suspect he might have had a bit of arthritis in his hands as well.

  • Virginia Gunner

    So in the lead photo, the ‘Director of Curriculam’ has his finger already on the trigger of that Glock while it’s likely pointed at his leg and/or foot, and a long way from being ‘on target.’ I hope the gun was unloaded and he was demonstrating what NOT to do when drawing. Otherwise…yikes.

    • Joel

      Didn’t LAPD have a problem with ADs? Maybe this photo explains why.
      Terrible grip too.

      • M40

        After a 1983 grenade accident, Jarrett has a permanently deformed ‘claw’ hand. He actually gave the surgeon a pistol to mold the reconstruction around the ability to grip a handgun. They used rib bones and tissue from his backside to reconstruct the hand.

        He’s left with a noticeably shortened/deformed trigger finger and no web between the thumb and index finger. His trigger finger isn’t inside the trigger guard… it’s actually that short.

    • Chris

      That is a result of damage to hand by a grenade ! He had reconstructive surgery using grip of 1911 as mold to shape his hand ! If using a 1911 it should be ok(for him) , since you can wait till on target to swipe safety off to fire .
      Still don’t know why no 1911 rule …is Glock a sponsor of the class ?

    • Blake
  • Robert R Ramos

    Good. Time to put that dinosaur to rest and move on!

    • Anonymoose

      Put the Glock down and get a P320, old man!

    • Porty1119

      Do you own one, or are you too caught up in the Block fan club?

  • Veloxto

    Muh 1911

  • Landru

    Did you try contacting the NRA and ask the whys and what nots of their decision to not allow 1911s?

    • m-dasher

      what?!….do actual research?…dude this is 2017…..we just comment on half information and emotion.

      • Brett baker

        Damn strait!

    • QuadGMoto

      Given that this is the weekend, there probably isn’t anybody to call. Hopefully they’ll do that Monday.

  • Uniform223
    • Ark

      “Sir, I think your trigger disciple needs some w-”

      “I’LL PUT A DISCIPLINED HOLE IN YOUR FACE.”

  • Get over it fanbois

    Looks like I missed the 1911 Luddite fanboi butt hurt brigade by a few hours.
    Even an organization as behind the times as the NRA recognizes current trends.
    LEO trainers and other firearm courses have already abandoned the 1911, it was only a matter of time before other organizations followed suit.

    • Porty1119

      Nobody cares; watch out for Glock leg.

  • Joe

    So, a P226 SAO should be fine, right?

  • IwasntbornyesterdayNRA

    I personally would rather trust my life to my 1911 than a plastic (brick) gun that could go all out Glock-nade on me.

  • Rusty S.

    Bottom line, this is just a bad decision/poor management by those in charge of the program.

  • Lee Attiny

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e3499c8ffc0f4204de894f2c65226d21465d3328e1ae79e399cc114c6801d2c7.jpg So i can still bring my muzzle-loaded carry pistol to the class, right?

    • codfilet

      Stand and deliver…..

    • tazman66gt

      Only when they are flintlocks, percussion is verboten.

  • ozzallos .

    ♪ I got a fever! And the only cure is more glock leg! ♪

  • Ark
  • patricksperry

    Just another reason for this Life Member to be fed up with the NRA…

    • This is why I’m glad I joined on a 3-year membership. My thinking is that NRA has to keep working hard to justify my continued membership. I considered a Lifetime Membership, but discarded that option because it takes all the pressure off the organization: “Meh, Steve’s a lifetime member, we’ll never get any more money from him so let’s add his name to our large membership rolls and then ignore him.”

      • Norm Glitz

        Oh they will never ignore you. 30 years a life member, upgraded to endowment five years ago and I’m still getting contribution calls and mailings. There’s always something.

      • patricksperry

        It was offered to me after winning a competition. Also, I do get to vote for BOD members. They do seem to listen to Life, or higher level members a bit more.

  • Risto Kantonen

    There are good reasons why almost all professionals have laid down the ol’ workhorse to rest and transitioned to something more modern. For one, 1911’s are unreliable unless they are carefully handcrafted, that’s the main reason as far as i can tell. As a consequence, if you want a reliable 1911 you better prepare to pay a whole lot for it. But in addition to that they’re larger and heavier than more modern firearms.

    Therefore, from this point of view it makes sense for the NRA to do this to accelerate the transitioning of the user base to better firearms. There is little to no advantage in using a 1911 today, but there are many downsides. Naturally, there’s always going to be some resistance to change, but in this case that resistance is based on irrational emotional attachment, not logic.

    If people want to own and use 1911’s for recreational purposes, that’s fine, i understand that. But for civilian concealed carry, or law enforcement and military, it makes no sense.

    • FT_Ward

      So you think this NRA rule is an attempt at forcing people to use another design? Does that sound like an suitable goal for a shooting course? Would it be acceptable to run a “no lever guns” hunting course?

      • Risto Kantonen

        In the context of this specific class; based on the content of the article, yes, it seems so. Outside of that context; no. My input regarding what the specific design parameters of a shooting course of any kind should be is neither required nor is it relevant.

        The only thing i’ve done is shared my hypothesis about the possible reasons why NRA has done this, that’s all.

    • mosinman

      you don’t need a handcrafted 1911 to get reliability.

    • QuadGMoto

      The irony of your comment is that I’ve switched from double-stack .40 to 9mm 1911 for two primary reasons; it’s easier to conceal and I shoot it significantly better. It’s also been the most reliable pistol I own. It certainly seems to me that those reasons make a whole lotta sense!

      • Risto Kantonen

        That’s fine, use what works for you.

    • Porty1119

      Please stop furthering this myth. Reliable 1911s are not rocket surgery, nor do they cost a fortune. Look for reputable, long-running manufacturers that price their pistols fairly and manufacture them with the loose clearances that characterized GI 1911s. The three types of 1911s that have problems are those not subject to proper quality control, those built too tight to try and squeeze more accuracy out for competitions, and those with barrels shorter than 4.25″.

      I guarantee you that you can find a wide variety of reliable 1911s for $800 or less. I own one; it’s coming up on needing a recoil spring replacement and has never failed me with factory ammunition.

      • Risto Kantonen

        Alright, fair enough. For the sake of the argument, let’s take reliability out of the equation. You’re still left off with the demonstrable fact that 1911s are larger, heavier, much more expensive and still have a lower ammo capacity. Yes, capacity doesn’t matter if you can’t hit anything, but when marksmanship and other firearms handling fundamentals have been honed down to the level where they are in muscle memory, there is no logical reason to select a pistol that is larger, heavier, lower capacity and costs more than many modern options that are available today.

        If one’s philosophy of use is recreational shooting or competition, then sure, go for whatever makes you happy. But for any serious use there is no logical reason to go for 1911. These are the reasons why most professionals in the security sector, whether it is law enforcement, military or private security have laid 1911s to rest and transitioned to something more modern.

        • QuadGMoto

          Actually, concealability determines the number of rounds more than anything else. I’m big enough that I can carry a larger pistol, but thickness still matters. My 1911 holds 10 rounds of 9mm and weighs about the same as an equivalent polymer pistol. But it has a much better trigger, and it’s thin enough to hide under summer clothing.

          That makes it a better, higher capacity fighting pistol than most popular “concealed carry” pistols like the LC9, P938 (a 1911 action), M&P Shield, and even the Glock 43.

          Again, your logic does not hold up.

  • Captain Obvious

    Lighten up Francis, it’s just a beginner course. Most beginners don’t carry 1911s. If all you have is a 1911 then don’t take the NRA course. There are plenty of other courses out there for all you operators.

    • Bucho4Prez

      That was my thought as well. It’s like the dude that shows up to get his motorcycle endorsement on an 900lb Road King.

  • FT_Ward

    Some posters seem to think the 1911 is a gun for “experts”. That’s completely backwards. The primary reason to use a 1911 is it’s easier to shoot that DAs and DAOs.The trigger pull is shorter and crisper and there’s only one pull. There is a manual safety, which for a number of fairly obvious reasons is a good idea especially for learners.

    Carry whatever you want but don’t discount the 1911 because only “experts” or “operators” can use it.

    • mandaloin

      I agree completely. It hurts to see people try to learn on polymer striker guns and get frustrated when they aren’t getting any better. All it takes is handing them something with a nice SA pull (1911, Sig, CZ) and it usually clicks right there.

    • guest

      Perhaps they mean that its short, light, crisp trigger pull is absolutely, completely, totally unforgiving of Rule Three violations, and if you have a brainfart while handling it, it can and will blow a .45 caliber hole in something you may not have needed or wanted a hole in.

      This sort of thing is why police departments in the US that have to recruit from among big-city boys who’d never seen a gun before except on TV, and who generally don’t have prior military service, up until around thirty years back universally issued them revolvers with twelve-pound triggers that required an inch or so of rearward travel before they’d discharge. The SWAT guys could carry 1911s if they wanted, because they’d demonstrated that they knew what they were about, but not Officer Lump Lump on foot patrol with his wooden nightstick, who might try to impress kids on the streetcorner by twirling the revolver on his extended index finger like the cowboys in the movies.

      Now, some would say that this was a hardware solution to a software problem, and I won’t say they’re wrong.

      But one of the counter-arguments was that police work is a low-paying, shitty job anyway, and if you hire former Marine Corps DIs to run the police academies and have them “smoke” Recruit Lump Lump for putting his booger hook on the bang switch at inappropriate times, you’re gonna run into a problem with attrition during training, especially with the female recruits they’ve been forced since the early 70s to take due to Affirmative Action, so any and all standards have to go out the window and we have to try to put a band-aid on the problem by issuing firearms that are so hard to fire accidentally that it becomes an artificial obstacle to using it efficiently and effectively at the time of need. Because Officer Lump Lump may carry that revolver for forty years without ever drawing it, and God help us all if it goes off because he’s screwing around and has his finger on the trigger when he shouldn’t. And this is a political reality that we just have to accept and work around. That this has gotten us to a place where law enforcement “self defense” courses are taught by “strong, independent womyn” who weigh seventy-eight pounds soaking wet, and whose careers are distinguished by incidents of watching their partners get dogpiled by “vibrant diversities” with knives and crowbars from inside a locked police cruiser and refusing to get out and render assistance is, we are told, just the price we pay for something called “progress.”

      Anyway. I am of the opinion that there is nothing whatsoever wrong with the 1911, especially not its trigger. I am also of the opinion that people in uniformed service, at least, shouldn’t be allowed in the same room with a handgun of any design or type until a DI has beaten into them that putting your finger on the trigger when you’re not trying to kill someone is a Bad Idea. You do what you want. It’s a free country. I am still of the opinion that handing a 1911 to someone who’s never seen a gun before except on TV and hasn’t learned the straight-finger reflex is not the best idea anyone ever had.

      • DunRanull

        So VERY right on in SO many ways! Training has been down-graded to make it possible for WOMYN and DIVERSITIES to complete the course with passing grades.. I never felt confident with a womyn partner in a tight spot. I saw it too often in my career for poor ability to be just co-incidence. When it came to a pig-pile, womyn just werent that much help..
        I started out with a Combat Commander and did OK with it, carried one or another 1911 for many years, as well as a tuned Colt Python. Eventually I traded the CC for a Glock 21- takes some getting used to the lack of a thumb safety! The 21 is a different sort of beast than the 1911 but is a useable, doable .45. I do prefer to carry the 21 in a flap holster for safety reasons, which Im sure many would have issues with that carry option…

  • It sounds like a mediocre course across the board. I expected better from one of the largest (if not the largest) gun organizations in the world.

    For $50 less, you can take a four day course with Massad Ayoob (only $800 vs the NRA’s $850) and get instruction with any safe handgun from a court recognized expert on the use of force.

    • Porty1119

      The NRA works because it is a large organization with broad support, not because it is at all effective, organized, or all that good.

    • TheGrammarMan

      Kool-Aid much? I’d rate those two courses about equal in fail.

      • If you’ve taken an Ayoob class and found it did not meet your expectations, that’s fine. However, it is still less expensive and doesn’t restrict you from using a revolver or 1911.

        I’m not sure what reasoning you used to consider me a cult follower of Ayoob. Substitute a two day Tom Givens or Rob Pincus class (both around $500) if you prefer.

        My point is simply that there are quality instructors offering equal or better training for less money than what the NRA program is offering.

        It is my opinion that if a self-defense firearms class disallows revolvers or 1911s simply because they don’t fit the course of fire, then that is a questionable training program.

  • derfelcadarn

    They can stick their class, I’ll take my chance with a revolver thanks. Honestly, self defense is NOT a commando thing, if you can’t get it done in six you have no place carrying a handgun. Shoot the firearm you are most confident with, in a caliber you shoot best. A single good hits outweighs a dozen non-hits exponentially.

    • Major Tom

      Pretty much. All the capacity in the Universe means nothing if you can’t actually hit the target or hit it effectively. A pistol is not a SAW, you’re not supposed to be delivering suppressive fire.

      • The_Champ

        Yes, to a degree, but this kind of ignores the reality of how your body will potentially react to the extreme stress of a lethal force encounter.

        • Porty1119

          Well, the last one I had (defending myself against a mountain lion attempting to stalk up behind me), one shot did the trick. I did not need to empty the magazine, and kept my wits about me.

          • The_Champ

            I’ve had close encounters with dangerous 4 legged critters, and a few with 2 legged critters, and for me personally the latter were far more heart rate raising, tunnel vision educing, uncontrolled shakes after the fact kind of experiences. But that’s only my personal experience, everyone is different.

            I’ve never been stalked by a big cat…that does sound a little hairy. What did you shoot him with? I’m honestly curious and I’m sure there is a good story there. Mountain lions are extremely rare in my parts, I’ve only ever seen tracks, but keep hoping to spot one some day.

          • Kivaari

            Cougar are common where I have lived and now live. Yet, they remain elusive to to most of us that stick to the roads. I know men that spent years in the brush doing survey work for timber companies that have only seen a handful. I’ve only seen one in 69 years.

          • The_Champ

            They are indeed elusive. When I spot their tracks in the snow they sure do stick out though.

          • Porty1119

            Didn’t shoot him, just at him, but I used a 1911 loaded with Federal HSTs.

            Spotted him across the canyon, ID’d him as a mountain lion, observed indications (noises, spooking birds) that he was attempting to stalk up to a position behind and above me. Got a good idea of where he was and fired. No further problems. This was around Oracle, Arizona, by an abandoned tungsten mine.

          • Porty1119

            Also, I’d had numerous life-threatening experiences beforehand in situations I cannot explain. It was just the most recent in a long line of hair-raising situations. I don’t really spook anymore. My fiancee has been dealing with similar to protect a friend, only what she’s dealing with has a more human face. It is not a good situation.

    • oldman

      To quote a friend in realistate “location location location 1 center mass hit will do more then 10 misses.”

      • ThisCoffeeisWEAK

        And would argue that one CNS hit to the cerebellum will do more than 10 shots to the center mass.

        • nonobaddog

          You are very correct.

        • oldman

          True but under stress center mass is a better target it is bigger and easer to hit. So two to the chest one to the head was the way i was taught. It seems to work well enough.

          • M40

            I can see the logic there… the two in the chest tend to slow them down enough to make the head shot a little more practical.

          • oldman

            It works and works well the reason they came up with it was because of the invention of practical body armor. The two to the chest may not stop them but as you say it will slow them down enough to make a head shot practical.

    • Dracon1201

      If a good single hit is exponentially better, then being able to put 17 on target is god tier. Idk where the fudd mentality of limiting your carry and that “people with semis can’t hit anything and they’re compensatin’ for a lack of skill” comes from, but most will match revolver shooters shot for shot and still have ammo left over.

      • The_Champ

        Agreed. Reading between the lines of derfelcadarn’s comment seems to imply just that. “I only have six rounds so I make sure my skills are superior”.

        I wouldn’t say revolvers are completely outdated, and there is nothing wrong with an emphasis on shooting fundamentals and shot placement. However, why not combine superior skills with more ammo on tap? What is the disadvantage to that? Why look down on someone who wants 18 rounds onboard their pistol?

        I agree you don’t need to be a tier-one, 5.11 wearing, beard sporting commando to get through your defensive shooting. However assuming that 6 rounds in a revolver will get you through all, or even most lethal force encounters is, I believe, a bad assumption to make.

    • m-dasher

      “if you can’t get it done in six you have no place carrying a handgun”

      spoken like someone who has NEVER taken a training class…..or shot on anything but a stress free static range.

      • guest

        To be entirely fair, the average number of rounds expended by an LEO in a lethal force encounter is a statistic that has stood remarkably still despite vast advances in weapons design for over a century: 2.4 rounds. This is almost unchanged since the days of .32 caliber Colt Police Positive revolvers loaded with 98-grain round nosed lead.

        Granted, that is the average. There are outliers. But it is also true that if multiple people are trying to kill you, the fight is very likely to be over one way or another before you expend six rounds. Either you’re going to win, quickly and decisively, or some “vibrant” fellow whose mother will say he “dindu nuffin” when he is arrested for robbing a liquor store with your gun two days later is going to be wearing your ears on a string around his neck when he’s caught.

        Yes, there was a French mercenary named Micheal Rousseau in Rhodesian service, who was one of five survivors of a Rhodesian SAS platoon that was overrun by the Cubans in Angola in 1974. After shelling their hilltop all day, the Cubans sent an entire rifle platoon up the hill with fixed bayonets in a night assault with the intent to put survivors to the sword. Rousseau had the last firearm with ammunition on that hilltop–a Spanish Star Super B in 9mm, which was ancient even then–and three eight-round magazines for it. Rousseau, it happens, was also an avid IPSC competitor in his spare time, and was the man who invented the Mozambique Drill. In a confused gun battle by moonlight, at just past arm’s length, Rousseau, acting alone, put the entire Cuban rifle platoon to rout–as attested by all surviving witnesses. When the Rhodesian dustoff helicopter arrived to pick up survivors and wounded at dawn the next morning, they counted eleven dead Cubans plus “several” blood trails going off into the bush, and Mr. Rousseau had the last mag of eight in that old Spanish pistol.

        I would submit that Mr. Rousseau’s situation was something of a statistical outlier and most defensive uses of a CCW firearm will not involve mortar fire or a bayonet charge by thirty Cuban conscripts. I would also submit that he won and lived, with a single-stack 9mm pistol loaded with ball ammo and twenty-four rounds on his person in three separate magazines.

        Front sight. Press. Repeat as needed. If fifteen-round mags make you feel better, it’s a free country, but odds are the fight’s going to be over one way or the other before you expend six, much less fifteen.

        • The_Champ

          Not being snarky, just very curious, do you have a source on that story?

          • guest

            Jeff Cooper.

        • Kivaari

          That number came from an old NYPD study. BIG BUT, it included things like shooting an injured dog. It wasn’t restricted to actual combat shoots. It was also compiled in the revolver era.

    • roguetechie

      Well it’s good to know my DGU didn’t happen the way it did… And or that you could’ve MAGICALLY handled in 6 what it took me 46 to do….

      You couldn’t have of course, and your dead ass would’ve been slumped bleeding out in the f***ing gutter with no gun wallet watch or cellphone when someone finally called your body into PD once dawn rolled around!

      Just because you choose to carry an anachronism doesn’t mean everyone else should be limited to your personal brand of militant stupidity!

      • ShootCommEverywhere

        What scenario occured where you fired 46 rounds in a DGU encounter? Legitimate curiosity.

        • roguetechie

          Very late summer night riding a motorcycle home from working a grocery store remodel gig in the Phoenix Metro area.

          At the time I was young and poor so had to open carry my full size pistol in a drop thigh holster which made it and me very visible to a car full of people who decided that they wanted to take what I had by force. It sucks because the pistol which kept me alive is almost certainly what marked me as a target worth hitting…

          There were 3 armed people in the car who at least two of started shooting in my direction as they pulled into the bank parking lot I had chosen for it’s really nice brightly lit parking lot as my place to pull off the road.

          I had myself fully backlit by the lights of the lot and had parked my motorcycle T to the entrance they had to use to pull in from the road.

          I expended the 15+1 initially in my pistol, but was still being shot at, so I commenced to very rapidly go through the two spare 15 round magazines I was carrying.

          My only goal was to get the shooting to stop and preferably for them to retreat.

          I’m very aware that my DGU was pretty much a statistical aberration! I mean, the fact that I was too poor to buy the good ammo and was firing 115 grain fmj wound up working in my favor since I was shooting through automotive body panels, glass, and upholstery pretty much says it all about how messed up the whole situation was!

          Even knowing what I know about how atypical my experience was comparatively hasn’t stopped it from coloring my judgment of what a good ammunition load for EDC is… Or a host of other factors.

          Hopefully though, I won’t have to fire shots in another DGU for the rest of my life! If I do have to I will be prepared to the best of my abilities though.

          • Gray

            I remember that. I’m from Arizona.

          • roguetechie

            Yeah, it sucks when you sit in the aftermath of something like that and have to acknowledge that your choice to openly carry the gun is very likely the reason happened at all.

            I don’t regret carrying that night, and I certainly have no issues morally with fighting and coming out on top. Hell, I’m still even a proponent of open carry!

            BUT

            I know I made a choice which set the events of that night in motion when I buckled that holster to my thigh and double checked that everything was secure before leaving the apartment for my shift.

            You absolutely should not be taking the time to think the big thoughts and make hard moral judgments in the middle of a gunfight! Make those choices and think those thoughts beforehand so you aren’t one of those poor bastards tormented by what you did after the dust settles…

          • neckbone

            I vaguely remember that as my mom lived down there at the time. Some reason I thought it happened at a car dealership though. I mainly remember it as a reason to carry spare magazines though.

          • roguetechie

            All I can say is that I got stupid lucky after making the good decision that I was being actively clocked by hostile attention and found somewhere bright with highly directional light and favorable entry/exit dynamics to it’s lot in which to stand and fight.

            When I saw it though, timeless words from every war veteran I’d ever talked to about combat flooded my brain with the overwhelming message to never fight fair and always pick the ground to give yourself every advantage possible!

            Staying rational is important too, but the best way to do that is to make as many decisions as possible before any shooting starts because human biology is very unforgiving and things do get a little wonky and strange once the fight chemicals really start dumping into your system.

            Finally,

            There’s no such thing as cheating when your life is on the line!

          • Gray

            It was more likely the motorcycle which made you a target. What didn’t make the news, even though police reports were filed, were the two times armed robbers fled two different Circle K’s, one when I walked in open carry, and one when my brother and I walked in open carry.

          • roguetechie

            I have long thought that both the motorcycle and the gun played a part in marking me out as a target. (Plus time of night, geographic area, and total lack of police presence in said area right then)

            Really though, it’s all academic and I don’t regret any of my decisions… I’m just aware that some of them likely made a violent confrontation more likely.

    • nonobaddog

      You have a big advantage over normal humans – you seem to know how many attackers their will be.

  • Arandor Thinnorion

    So Hi-Powers are okay, but 1911’s aren’t? What about a Beretta 92 or CZ-75 carried like a 1911 (cocked and locked)? Are they suggesting that no one “carries” a 1911 or 1911-style pistol? How about the “commander” size or even the sub-compacts?

    I’m not a 1911 guy, I don’t own one. But this is ridiculous.

    • Dracon1201

      It’s about having the capacity to complete drills, not the action of the gun itself. I agree it’s stupid, and they should focus on training you to overcome the shortcomings.

      • Arandor Thinnorion

        Then they should ban subcompacts as well since they normally hold 6-10 at most (depending on caliber).

        • Porty1119

          And then it doesn’t become a “carry” course, but a “defensive duty-sized handgun” course. Most folks do not carry full-size handguns; I know two people who do and I’m one of them.

      • Cymond

        If the issue is capacity, then the rule should be about capacity. There are double stack 1911s that are still banned, and there are other single stack pistols that are still allowed.

    • Rich Melly

      Thank goodness! I can bring the Hi-Power I’ve been carrying since 1973 to the beginners class!

  • BillyOblivion

    Not a big fan of Glocks, but that’s really, really stupid.

  • Cal S.

    Either that or they didn’t want to deal with the constant arthritis breaks that come with the genre. 😉

    • mosinman

      wait… you you’re saying that 1911s cause arthritis?!? I’m only 24, it’s time i ditch my 1911 before its too late

      • Cal S.

        Just like cracking your knuckles, kid.

        No, it’s a stab at the 1911 being the standby for old men who hate polymer.

        • mosinman

          but i hate polymer 🙁

          • Cal S.

            Polymerist! Humph!

        • .45

          Actually at one of the classes I went to there was only one other guy than myself rocking a 1911, and by rocking I mean having a lot of trouble because he was “older” and had trouble even racking the slide. He had a lot of one on one from the instructors, but even then didn’t do well.

  • None

    Come one Firearms Blog. Do some reporting on this. Contact the NRA for comment and get a hold of Jarrett regarding that picture.

    • tazman66gt

      When their writers can’t even tell the difference between the Government armory Springfield Armory and the commercial builder Springfield Armory I don’t hold out much hope of them doing any real journalism.

  • KentMike

    Hey NRA. Thanks for the photo to use in my upcoming student classes. This is exactly where we want to put our booger-picker. Nice job. Of course, I’ll be sure to give you full copyright credit.

  • Brad

    Easy answer is just don’t take their class. They should be teaching people to “run what you brung” instead of trying to chase people away. I wonder how many villagers Mr Jarrett refused to train because they didn’t have M16 style rifles?

    I love when gun owners attack other gun owners over stupid stuff. Goes to show you that we are our own worst enemy.

  • Jason P. Brown

    Probably because their courses of fire require 10+ rounds between reloads, or something of that nature. I’ll need to check it out before I twist my knickers.

  • Wild Bill

    Read the title, made some popcorn and scrolled down to the comments to watch the butt hurt flow.

  • Pedenzo

    Piss. On. Them.

  • Thinker-1

    I would not even consider a course with such an idiot as a director. One more reason to reject Carry Guard.

    • Blake

      By idiot are you referring to the lifelong veteran who’s hand was destroyed by a grenade? They guy who had the surgeons mold his hand around a pistol grip while they were rebuilding it out of one of his ribs so he’d still be able to shoot. Yeah, what an idiot.

      • dub baillie

        To quote Clint Smith, “No one cares”

        He got blown up playing with a grenade? No one cares

        He’s had surgery but his hand doesn’t really work like a human hand is suppose to? No one cares

        He’s got some interesting stuff in his resume? NO ONE CARES

        Years ago G Gordon Liddy offered some courses but it sort of flopped as Mr Liddy didn’t live up to the hype that his resume offered.

        Maybe Mr Jarrett is still all that or maybe he’s a has been riding his past glories.

        no one cares

  • John Hamblin

    Alternative Headline: NRA Shoots Self In Foot

  • Christopher Hartman

    Bad grip and finger on the trigger PASS

    • Blake
      • Christopher Hartman

        I have nether the time nor the inclination to research every random instructor on the internet with a crappy grip and trigger discipline. It was much more likely he was a crappy instructor than some dude with a claw hand moreover it’s a bad photo if it needs a biography to explain it.

  • tomah57

    I think you will find this rule is traceable to one 1911 hating jackass .I won’t mention names but his initials are ‘ Rob Pincus ‘.

    Please do bring your Hi-Points though eh.

    • I’m not sure how you can reasonably blame Rob Pincus for this. Pincus has partnered with the USCCA’s training division which is the direct competitor to this NRA program.

  • Brett baker

    Fortunately, I can use my Tokarev.

    • Sermon 7.62

      It belongs to a museum

    • Kevin Craig

      A pre-safety import, I hope!

  • SPQR9

    Is this really the program’s policy or just the policy of one instructor with a messiah complex?

  • RickH

    Someone’s not a fan of cocked and locked.

  • .45

    Solution: Take your Glock or whatever to the course, then shoot your 1911 or whatever on your own time. What? You don’t have six different handguns laying around? I feel for you sonny.

    • Porty1119

      I have one laying around, because I’m extremely transient for work and other reasons, and the ATF residency requirements have basically made it impossible for me to legally acquire a handgun. Rifles and shotguns are not a problem.

  • Jeff Smith
  • Gary Kirk

    At the rate they’re driving nails in their coffin, maybe they should pick up a nail gun..

  • John W. O’Brien III

    That’s because for a reliable 1911, you have to spend thousands of dollars, people show up with AO 1911s and they don’t last 400 rounds…..

    • rennsport4.4TV8

      People can keep saying that, but it does not make it true. You do not need to spend thousands of dollars for a reliable 1911.

    • Porty1119

      False.

      Please look at Colt, Springfield (gag), RIA, or any number of 1911 manufacturers with options in the $400-800 range. You’ll be pleasantly surprised with what you find.

      • roguetechie

        Yup I had a sub $600 RIA double stack A1 which ran beautifully for years with absolutely zero trouble while firing all sorts of ammo from not so hot to pretty hot…

        It actually has seemed to me like the 1911 is a mo money mo problems gun, with every extra $25 over the $600 mark directly correlating to a 1% drop in reliability…

        It could just be that lots of people try to buy their way into hobbies in lieu of cracking the books, bugging old timers for tribal knowledge, and swearing as they blow springs and pins all over the room after flubbing a maintenance or upgrade task!

        IMO it’s a ton of fun being the guy who random gun guy friends of a friend can show up with pieces of gun in a shoe box asking for help.

        I don’t always, or even most of the time, know the answers out of hand but I can usually get them in 10 Google tabs and 3 YouTube videos or less!

    • Norm Glitz

      My $75 1911A1 Remington is still running fine after the Army was through with it and I’ve had it for close to 50 years.

  • codfilet

    Glock/1911 posts-always good for boosting site traffic numbers……..

  • Paul Hurst

    Anyone who grips a Glock like that, and has finger in trigger at that point of draw, is not someone I could consider training with.

    No surprise he is a cop.

    • Blake

      He’s actually a lifelong veteran who’s hand was destroyed by a grenade. He had it reconstructed around a pistol frame so he would still be able to shoot with it.

  • Joseph D. Saxon

    This shit in the picture is why aliens won’t talk to us.

  • Harry’s Holsters

    I can see not allowing 1911s unless you bring a backup. To many people making 1911s and unless someone has tested their guns it can be a major pain for the entire class. I can also see not allowing modified glocks for the same reason. The NRA style classes won’t necessarily bring out the best of shooters. I’ve experienced this happening in a carbine class where two students problems held up the entire class. One guy bought a home build from his local shop and the other was shooting Tula from a match chamber gun. Their problems made the class go much slower than it should have.

    That said I’d never take a class from someone operating a handgun as they are in the advertisement picture.

  • NRA: You know what would be great? If we started competing directly against a large segment of our membership!

  • The better question is who is going to waste $850 on an NRA carry guard class?

  • 2A_Tom

    I guess they want you to buy an Springfield.
    I guess NRA classes are off my list.

    Lifetime NRA member.

  • Does he have his finger on the trigger before he is on target?

    • Chris

      No

  • Koh

    I’d love to show up with a SAO P226.

  • Brett D.

    The NRA offers this course. They are allowed to say what firearms are OK to bring. There are probably reasons for them wanting to make this change. You are welcome to take a course anywhere you want that accepts 1911’s. This is no way is the NRA saying that the 1911 is a sub-par platform.

    I think some of you need to relax. Also, this isn’t a 1911 vs. Glock issue.

    • QuadGMoto

      This is more like a “Wha…??? What are they thinking? This makes no sense” issue.

    • rennsport4.4TV8

      I don’t see anybody saying that the NRA can’t do this. Everybody is just laughing at the fact that they did it and simultaneously have a really picture in the article.

  • Don Mei

    Hmm. I have a hard time believing that nobody noticed the dude’s finger is on the trigger as that Glock is clearing leather. Hmm. HK mag with the bullet in backwards anyone???

    • Blake

      Pretty sure people notice it, they just choose to not make fun of the disabled veteran who had is hand literally reconstructed around a pistol frame so he would still be able to shoot. He can’t move most of his hand.

  • Sam Wilson

    “I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.

  • Rico Mapster

    What a crock of crap. It’s this kind of garbage from the NRA that just irritates the hell out of me.

  • GlockSauerWesson 1911

    Lolz, typical gun forum arguments. 1911 vs Glock vs Sig vs “I’m a pistol master and you are dumb because you don’t like my pistol!”. Until they make an HK Glock Sauer 1911-226, these silly debates will always pop up. The level of passion in some of these comments is amazing. Take a breath folks. It’s gonna be alright.

    • The_Champ

      Emotional attachment to inanimate objects rears it’s head again. Business as usual in the gun world. And I’m not trying to sound sanctimonious, I’m sure I’ve shown the same behaviour in the past.

  • James Jarrett

    Oh crap. That’s the third time this week I shot my foot. There must be something wrong with this gun.

    • Blake

      Or you know, his hand. Which was torn by a grenade accident when he was serving. He literally can not move his fingers. His hand was recreated using a rib and formed around a pistol frame when they were rebuilding it so he would still be able to shoot.

  • TZH .

    lame back scratching cash grab gun snobbery bullshit.

    some groups have Instructor Zero, over here we have Instructor Glock Leg

  • Jay Abramson

    I am an NRA Member, and I will not be using that service. NRA showed no class in dealing with USCCA. And to be sure, while I don’t carry a 1911 as my concealed carry. Who the Hell are they to prohibit them from a semiautomatic handgun class? WTF NRA? Are they going to not service subscribers of Gun Guard if they use a 1911???

  • Joe Met

    Some egghead stupid instructor thought this one up.

  • Chris Webb

    I don’t have a problem with 1911s in my classes, including the one on my hip, but I DO have a problem with taking classes designed by a guy who draws his sidearm with his finger on the trigger. I’ll sit this one out, thanks. C’mon NRA…you need to do better.

  • George Flynn

    The Comments, Well most have nothing to do with the Topic ? Ford, Chevy, FORD, CHEVY UGH

  • Tom Currie

    The 1911 is well known as NOT being a suitable carry gun for incompetents — which are exactly the intended audience of the NRA Carry Guard Insurance (and afterthought training) venture.

  • Mike Brasher

    One of my jobs entailed open carry in SoCal, servicing ATM’s. Open, uniformed carry. After some idiot put a round through his thigh with his 1911, the insurance carrier stipulated double-action semi-autos.
    So, maybe, that’s what’s driving this…insurance / liability / money!

    • Norm Glitz

      Too bad the “idiot” didn’t put a round through his thigh with a D/A semi.

  • Gunn

    Okay… does anybody else think something like “oh, this is gonna be good,” and get just a tiny little bit of a stiffy when they see “250 Comments”?

    Asking for a friend.

  • Gunn

    On a more serious note, I had initially thought the ban on 1911s and revolvers would be the fact that it is possible to reholster them in an incredibly unsafe condition (hammer back with no safety applied). But that would apply to DA/SA autoloaders, too, which are clearly allowed…

    I could even understand disallowing revolvers as primaries, since they have a very different manual of arms than semi-autos and instructors who are experienced experts with a wheelgun are probably getting pretty thin, too. But 1911s? I just don’t get it.

    The 1911 design is basically obsolete for general use, but it’s still probably mostly sufficient. Better a trained 1911 user, who has trained with a 1911, than a 1911 user who trained with something else that was allowed by the instructor. Or even worse, a 1911 user with no training at all.

    • Michael Shannon

      “The 1911 design is basically obsolete for general use.”

      How would a 1911 be “mostly sufficient” and also “obsolete”? What do you want a pistol to do that a standard 1911, P14 or Officers model couldn’t?

      1911s are obviously not obsolete or there wouldn’t be millions in private hands with more versions entering the market annually including ones with polymer frames.

      Handguns are probably the piece of technology that has progressed least over the last 40 years. They’re about the same size, weight and power as they were in 1975.

      • Gunn

        “Mostly sufficient” means that it can effectively get the job it’s intended for done, which a quality 1911-pattern gun most certainly will (with the exception of tasks that require higher capacity, although there are hi-cap 1911s out there, as you note).

        “Obsolete” means that it has been superseded in relevant traits (for a pistol: ease of use, reliability, weight, reliability, capacity, reliability, etc.) by more modern designs. Which the 1911 unequivocally has been– for, like I said, general use. General use being personal defense and service as a law-enforcement and military sidearm, which is the role of the vast majority of handguns. Now for competition shooting the 1911 design, particularly the lockwork and consequent excellent triggers that it makes possible, are still very relevant. But that’s not general use.

        There are millions of lever-action rifles and single-action revolvers out there, too, just like 1911s. And just like 1911s, they are obsolete– they have been technologically superseded by guns that are more capable. But the fact that they are objectively less capable doesn’t mean that they won’t get the job done, either, as long as you’re not expecting them to be the very best thing in their class.

        There are all kinds of obsolete designs still in production, because people don’t buy everything on the basis of it being as modern and efficient as possible. And thank God for it, because otherwise the world would be a pretty dull place.

        Having a 1911 as a carry gun is like having a ’57 Bel Air as a daily driver. It will get the job done in all but the weirdest situations, but it is obsolete– less capable and less efficient than other options, and requires more skill to use effectively.

    • John Stepp

      OK, first real downside noted; putting gun into holster without engaging safety. When I carried I treated my firearms with the same respect that I did for my chainsaw; it is a machine that can hurt you if you don’t pay attention.
      I carried 2 1911s; that is usually called a New York reload.

      • Gunn

        I agree. Just saying that DA/SA guns can have basically the same user-error failure, so that’s not a point to disqualify the 1911 on.

  • Donnie Steen

    How about the FACT that the director of training for this class is drawing a flock and OBVIOUSLY has his finger on the trigger!!??!!
    How about be on guard…because your INSTRUCTOR just might shoot your feet…
    No THANKS …ill be skipping that class

    • Blake

      The class run by the veteran instructor who’s hand was torn in a grenade accident. He gave surgeons a pistol frame so when rebuilding his hand they had a template for what he wanted to do with it. So he can’t really move his fingers.

  • Joe Schmo

    Aren’t 90% of NRA members old dudes who only carry 1911s and love the .45ACP? Did the NRA just spit in their own faces?

  • Mystick

    OK… bring the DE50 then, maybe an AutoMag.

  • Edeco

    Aside from the Rule 3 violation, his form looks inefficient, like he’s lifting it up too high, tilting his whole torso. Looks slow and obvious. I’m no expert at martial shooting doctrine, for all I know that could be trendy.

  • mazkact

    That picture went around not too long ago. I’m thinking TFB chose it for this article. I do not think it was a coincidence. If so, Well played. Any program can certainly set their own criteria for classes but there be backlash from this one.

  • commonman

    Nobody here even talking about the the subject of the article. I thought it was about the NRA disallowing the 1911. Nothing here folks.

  • durabo

    I’ve been an NRA life ember and instructor since 1991, but at this point, I would join JPFO or GOA…but not the NRA, which has become a fundraising organization first and a firearms rights organization second.

  • MadMonkey

    Why would anyone try to bring a boat anchor to a shooting class anyway?

  • I don’t care who you are, putting your finger on the trigger while the gun is pointed at your foot is wrong.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4a5097b7105bbae37ccab6d1b2294056061aadff48bcb3109b195b0aa980f2a5.png

    • Blake

      Yeah.. dude is a veteran who’s hand was torn in a grenade accident. He gave surgeons a pistol frame so when rebuilding his hand they had a template for what he wanted to do with it. So he can’t really move his fingers.

      • RyanC

        He’s got two hands, right?

        Not only can he learn to draw left-handed, but he can buy those left-handed holsters on the cheap.

        • FarmerB

          Mate, you’re a wanker.

        • Chris

          Butthurt ,much?

          • RyanC

            Why, cause Ol’ Hickory there is pulling a gun out of his holster using a gimp hand with his finger on the trigger? I’ll just let nature take care of that one.

            If he was smart, he’d buy himself a set of kevlar pants & bulletproof boots.

    • Chris

      It is not touching the trigger ,Dude ! You are expecting to see a straight ,
      flat against the frame trigger finger ! The position all range Nazis must see !
      Well tough , you’re out of luck cause his finger DON’T do straight , and flat against the frame ! It is always crooked !
      But , just because you are optically challenged and are confused by the finger’s odd shape and different position doesn’t mean his flipping finger is on the trigger …it is not ! Get over yourself dude !

      • MichaelZWilliamson

        Dude! Not everyone is a dude, dude! Exclamation points don’t add to your point, dude! Grammar does, though, dude! So does punctuation other than bangmarks, dude!

  • RogerDane

    Look, the article is discussing the ‘lack of wisdom’ relative to “disallowing” a 1911 (and most agree re: the revolver) from the class and “not” whether a Glock has a safety (and everyone should notice the finger position on the chosen photo for the article – it is the human that is unsafe when using a firearm) or is a ‘better’ gun, blah, blah… What is notable is the distinction for the 1911 as a backup gun? Huh? This is a bad decision overall. Never can tell what will come down from the NRA.
    Reading the last line, maybe the shooter in the pic is supposed to be the NRA “shooting themselves” in the foot?

  • Tym O’Byrne

    Can i still bring in my Model 1927? LOL…..

  • John Worrel

    So, a Hi-Point is O.K. but a 1911 (like a G-Lock but for men) isn’t?

  • David483

    Yeah I have a real issue with the promotional photo for NRA Carry Guard program with James Jarrett used in this article. While I don’t pretend to know as much about firearms or self defense as someone like James (hell, he’s probably forgotten more than I’ll ever know), as a firearms instructor myself, there is several things in that photo I don’t like. 1) finger on the trigger on the pull before the firearm is addressing the target 2) a pull that looks like it will be raised fairly high before addressing the target 3) exaggerated movement from dropping the opposite shoulder and 4) the low grip on the firearm. Easily his hand should be high on the grip with the finger off the trigger – those are no-brainers. Not all of us do it, especially when drawing quickly, but in a instructor-led class and/or promotional photo, you want to get it right. My other issue is with the way a lot of courses emphasize for people to draw the firearm up high, well above the holster, before rotating the muzzle to address the target. While they have their reasons for this, lets face reality, if most of us have to pull, it will be a CQB type situation and getting the firearm to address the target as quickly as possible is paramount. For me, as soon as that barrel has cleared the holster, the muzzle should be pointed at the target, allowing for immediate point-shooting if needed. Raising the firearm up all the way, rotating, bracing with the supporting hand, and pushing out to address the target will produce a more accurate shot, but there are reasons for things like the CAR system of shooting.

    • Chris

      He has a disability as his hand was mangled by a grenade and was surgically reconstructed with the grip of a 1911 as a form ! The finger isn’t touching the trigger , it is always curved and cannot lay flat and straight alongside the frame like most most people like to do to show finger off trigger ! Because finger is crooked it is easy to assume it is on trigger ,it is not !
      Still don’t know why the no 1911s rule though ?

  • Risto Kantonen

    I for one am curious and would like to hear the reasons for why NRA has chocen to do this. I have my hypothesised thoughts about what the reasons might be, but a statement from NRA would be interesting.

    And to all those that are frowning upon this decision, i would like to share a Finnish idiom: “Who bows to one, shows his ass to another.”, because it fits this situation so well. Considering the sheer size of the total userbase of people who have a CCW as well as the variance in the model and make of their of CCW as well as ideas, opinions, philosophy of use and a whoooole lot of other variables. There is no way to please everyone, the variables in question dictate that no matter what anyone does or says in the firearms culture, there is always going to be someone frowning upon what is being said or done.

    So instead of emotions, i suggest that people start valuing facts and evidence instead as well as consciously being honest to oneself and admitting their mistakes when they happen.

  • shooter2009

    The NRA has shot themselves in the foot on this one…LOL.

  • michael franklin

    Easy fix, go to a different class.

  • mosinman

    well since i can’t bring my 1911 i’ll have to use my Hi-point

  • HL

    To say the 1911 is America’s favorite gun…where did they come up with that nonsense???

    • MichaelZWilliamson

      Sales figures.

      • HL

        Doubt it.

  • GSH

    NRA did indeed shoot itself in the foot.

  • Michael Stohler

    Got Glocks and Colts, first gun I grab is always a 1911…

  • Jason M

    Using an image of the new Director of Curriculum drawing a “semiautomatic” firearm from his holster with his finger already on the trigger is probably why they are not allowing 1911’s.

  • Michael Shannon

    For anyone arguing this must be about mag capacity and the ability to run some multi-target drill without reloading I’d just point out that P14s hold 14 rounds and P-38s don’t. The latter is allowed. In any event is a drill with five targets really practical or IPSC lite? Perhaps John Wick 3?

    If you’re arguing that 1911s are less forgiving of trigger mistakes I’d ask why are you teaching a concealed carry course to people so inexperienced that you don’t trust any of them to use the 1911 (but not other single actions curiously or other pistols with short or light triggers).

    The NRA is also doing a disservice to the students. The student might intend to carry a 1911 but instead of showing them how to run that gun optimally they’ll make them bring another model.

  • Rick246

    screw these guys…and their class!

  • Well, I couldn’t care less about the 1911 part of the story but, as so many others have already stated, for someone that is supposed to be such a high-speed, low-drag, ninja warrior, his trigger discipline is appalling.

    • Blake

      No not really, more like he has a hand that was destroyed by a grenade and was reconstructed around the grip of a handgun so he’d still be able to shoot.

  • jonp

    Yeah, after reading a few other comments on different stories I came back to take a look at this one. Is The NRA really teaching people to stick their booger picker into the trigger guard and yank the gun out that way? They are worried about 1911’s with this going on? At least those have a safety. Jeez Louise…….

  • average joe

    What are the four(4) Rules????

    1. All guns are always loaded.
    2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
    3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
    4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
    Thank you Col. Cooper.
    now to reiterate on rule #3.

    KEEP YOUR G@) D@#* BOOGER HOOK OFF THE BANG SWITCH, YOU ID10TS. ! ! ! !

    any questions? re-read, apply.

  • Jeremy von Kesselburg

    About time someone recognized that 8 rounds just isn’t enough. 🙂

    • MichaelZWilliamson

      If you plan to miss, you do in fact need a lot of rounds.

  • average joe

    also James Jarrett should be spanked and SPANKED hard for allowing himself to photographed with his Booger Hook on the Bang Switch ! ! ! ! NO NO NO ! ! ! shame James shame.

    • Andrea Goldstein

      AND his grip sucks big time.

  • boomer3844

    I carry my 1911( Sig & Springfield &Browning) and now a Kimber K6S as back up. I carry what I like and have for 45 yrs since I got my permit at 21(1972). I was taught safety starting at 10 yrs of age. Shot my first 45LC at 10. My father and step father always expected safety and to carry quality ,not what the sheep follow.

  • Stephen Brown

    This is very weird. How about a Browning Hi-Power? Or a Para-Ordnance Tactical (14 rounds)? No idea what the reasoning here is…

  • CompletelyOutsane

    I’m PO’d that NRA is skewering USCCA with this program already.

  • Whitney Philbrick

    Ah, someone with that bad trigger finger discipline (esp w a glock) isn’t anyone I’m taking a class from. If the pic is even real and if he wasn’t demonstrating to a class with a cleared gun what NOT to do. Pictures really aren’t worth 1000 words….

  • lookinoutforu

    I’ll pass on the NRA’s insurance program. That clown in the picture isn’t someone that can teach me anything.

  • Wil Ferch

    Whatever the decision and the emotions involved……the article itself is poorly written and investigated…as there was no follow up REASON given for not allowing the 1911 pattern. I mean for God’s sake….the Father of modern pistolcraft, Jeff Cooper…. used and taught with this gun for “Serious” use. And although time has gone by and there are now the plastic-fantastic striker fired guns available that are more modern ( of all stripes….DA only,….”partial” DA or SA, etc), the 1911 pattern pistol is still viable. Don’t get it……WHY?

    • MichaelZWilliamson

      Possibly the authors were not given a reason.

      • Wil Ferch

        Michael……poor response. If you write for a living…..are a journalist or a reporter…..you DIG to find out !. Nothing in that line of work is handed to you on a silver platter (“were not given a reason”…really?). If the writer wants to inform us, but just repeats the results without investigating…..especially when the news article is SO ODD to leave this big question hanging…. then that is simply poor reporting.

        • MichaelZWilliamson

          I know more about writing than you do.

  • This is a course aimed at a beginner and 1911s are not a beginner pistol. Since it’s carried cocked and locked there’s a reasonably valid concern over accidental discharge. That might be the driving consideration.

  • TruthGiver
    • MichaelZWilliamson

      If it was about safety, they wouldn’t allow beginners to handle Glocks.

  • John R Pyles

    when I took CCW training they recommended against using the 45 caliber as too the amount of shooting we would be doing to help prevent fatigue. I didn’t see anything wrong with that. I love my 1911 and it is my primary carry weapon.

  • Kickstart

    I’m not as concerned with the classes at this point in time as I am with the policy.

    First I had to request the policy as it was not sent with the package, something that is usually provided when a policy was purchased. The first person I spoke with said they could not provide a policy to me and I requested to speak to their Supervisor and then was told they would send me the policy.
    I have a Litigation Paralegal looking over the policy and I’m not getting a warm fuzzy feeling about it. I plan to contact several of the many named insurance companies in this policy for clarification. Buyer Beware!

  • candiduscorvus

    Sounds like some trainers have problems with automatic handguns that have fewer than 15 round magazines.

  • darrell_b8

    Maybe they are against ‘low mag capacity pistols’….who cares…..bring what you got or what a great excuse to get a new “********** (you fill in the blank)

  • Snidely70448

    Wonder how much the NRA got paid to disallow 1911’s and revolvers.

  • Michael Fallon

    The reason is simple. The influx of new handgun owners, with many also carrying concealed or open carry, the trend is that trainers like the modern polymer type pistols, or pistols that are simple in operation, field stripping, and cleaning. Unfortunately many of these novice shooters are showing up with 1911s. A 1911 for carry, is especially for a well trained professional. The 1911 is truly America’s number one semiautomatic pistol. However, with it’s manual safety, more steps to field strip, and more required care, to run properly, is not for a beginner. Also, some of these new shooters show up with more custom type 1911s, with tight tolerances, with little or no break in, will delay class, with malfunctions. The more smooth classes, the more people will sign up, and the more money, the trainers will make. Yes, it is crazy that 1911s would be banned, but I think the reasons I gave, is why.

    • Norm Glitz

      Clearances, not “tolerances”.

      • Michael Fallon

        You are correct. My mistake. I guess you agreed with my comment otherwise, since you saw nothing else in error, to comment on.

    • Andrea Goldstein

      Sounds like a reasonable explanation, but then why does the NRA allow such a suicidally dangerous and unreliable (for novices) 1911 as a SECONDARY weapon. Due to all the ND’s of these beginners, students are sure to die by the score during these Carry Guard classes…

    • DunRanull

      I think you about sum up the “issue” with students bringing to class a 1911 they have little familiarity with, be it a custom, or otherwise… That said, I was a newbie to the 1911 once, and can still remember my first magazine fired… and what FUN it was disassembling and reassembling it for cleaning. There were very few “other than 1911” semi-auto pistols available in anything “bigger than 9mm” at the time. So I learned to like the 1911 and carried it in Combat Commander form for many years. (Still do, sometimes) but have learned to like the Glock for open carry, in spite of it’s warts (no safety, no visible cocked indicator, and a too easily jostled trigger).

  • somebodystolemynamefatboy

    I guess my granddaughter, who is a dead shot with her 1911, won’t be attending.

  • Charlie

    Just plain stupid! Maybe NRA should stop taking advertising dollars from the makers of 1911’s and not advertise them (all the time) in their magazines! You won’t see that happening!!!

  • Kirk Lawson

    Feh. Tempest in a teacup. Lots of modern trainers dislike the 1911 platform for any number of reasons and either discourage or prohibit them in their classes.

    In short. Big deal. 😛

  • lklex

    Maybe it’s because the instructor can’t properly handle a 1911. Putting his finger on the trigger of a single action pistol while pulling the pistol from the holster is a recipe for negligent discharge.

  • Geno

    Fat guys with guns. C’mon,hit the gym, respect your body and mind before picking up a weapon. Hmmm, finger on trigger pointed at foot, master grip low stock of gun, rocking over to one side to draw gun because you tooo fat to make your belt fit properly…SAD INDEED.

  • FULLOFEMAILNAMES

    EXPERTS WITHOUT EXPERTISE

    1) Putting your finger on the trigger
    while not clearing all body psrts is an immediate safety violation and;
    2) Re-holstering with your finger on the trigger WILL LEAD TO A
    NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE.

    GREAT PICTURE JAMES JARRETT

    BUT, You need at add the caption;

    “HERE’S WHAT NOT TO DO DURING A DRAW/RE-HOLSTERING”

    To add matters worse, the Editors didn’t catch it?

    • MichaelZWilliamson

      Yeah, but he’s an “expert” and a “Green Beret” so the rules don’t apply to him.

  • StBernardnot

    Another reason why I belong to GOA. I also send them the dues I would have wasted on the NRA.

  • survivor50

    After handling pistols for over half a century, 1911’s STILL “feel” better than 99.97% of Tupperware guns. And shoot better than 90% of them.
    (Yes, I own SEVERAL of both types…but just the good ones…and do carry plastic…American Express Card !!! Don’t leave home without it. NO Glocks yet…43 is promising though…)
    Sorry NRA…you earned a ” D ” minus on this one…

  • Rogertc1

    LOL at least in my State we are not required to shoot. Pity the states that require it. That Evil 1911.

  • Jason Adams

    The guy probably doesn’t like 1911’s and while my EDC is usually one of my a plastic high capacity full size guns I do still carry one of my 1911’s once in a while. Well they can run their course anyway they want but it does make me glad I didn’t opt to get the carry guard instructor training now. All this is going to do is raise the ire of many potential students and who needs that?

  • pismopal

    Great headline for Glock knockers but the 1911 is not a beginners pistol imo.

  • I actually get this. I own a couple of 1911s and like them, and have on occasion carried them, but they are not a beginner’s gun, and this is about a “Level 1” class.

  • Reginald Pettifogger

    Angry note from Jeff Cooper……

  • dltaylor51

    Its not the NRA thats responsible for this stupidity its some ——— that is in love with the lesser Glock.I have a custom real 1911 that I’ll put up against any auto pistol on earth.They need to name said ———— so we know who to shun.

  • Edge767

    Oh wow, the salt from the tears of the 1911 fanboys is enough to salinate Lake Michigan!

    • dub baillie

      You are a very special kind of stupid if you fail to differentiate contempt from tears. Sort of like those idiot tourist who get bit on the face while trying to kiss monkeys around Hindu temples

  • Dragonheart

    Being a NRA Instructor now for 50 years, all I can add is this young pup is doing a disservice both to his students and to the public in general. The 1911 is the safest handgun to carry. It has a transnational flip safety that with a proper draw, is taken off as the gun is removed from the holster. During the draw the barrel of the gun is always pointed in a safe direction away from the shooter.

    Second, the 1911 has a grip safety, which engages when the grip is firmly in the hand.

    In addition the 1911’s typically have one of the best triggers on the market, making the 1911 one of the easiest handguns to learn to shoot accurately. Shooting inaccurately puts the lives of innocent bystanders in jeopardy.

    Having competed in the IDPA, one thing I have learned I will share, “You can shoot a handgun with a bad trigger fast. You can learn to shoot a handgun with a bad trigger accurately. But you will never learn to shoot a handgun with a bad trigger fast and accurately.” Need I have any any more proof than the shooting record of the New York
    Police Department? With New York’s mandated 11 pound trigger pull for
    police firearms, the NY police are infamous for shooting more innocents
    than bad guys in an encounter.

    Lastly, when you hear of “accidental discharges” what is the gun most likely involved? Not a 1911. Actually, accidental discharges do not exist; the gun fired because someone pulled the trigger. It would be more accurately described as an unintentional discharge.

    I am not bashing the numerous handguns without safeties as they are part of my curriculum when I teach, but to to exclude any semi-auto is a disservice.

  • Rickohh

    That is absolutely ridiculous…. Who in the NRA has set up such a stupid restriction? The 1911 is one of, if not the, most popular handgun in America.

  • Andrea Goldstein

    In the picture above of the anti-1911 “expert” James Jarrett drawing his pistol, it looks like he’s about to have one of those Tex Grebner moments. Next words out of his mouth will be, “I just f*&%ing shot myself!!”

  • David169

    I have a California permit on which the manufacturer, model and serial number of the carry hand gun must be listed. Every handgun on the permit requires qualification. I have a Para Ordnance P 14-45. It is considered the same as a M-1911. The instructor explained to me that the “stage two” (cartridge chambered, pistol cocked and safety on) is the most common way to carry. I was told many right-handed beginning shooters hit the safety as their hand is going down to grab the pistol. Because of the size of the pistol and most people want to carry inside the belt and on the hip, they basically have to jam their thumb between their undershirt and the pistol which can cause the safety to move to the off position. The beginners may also grab the pistol firmly when pulling it from the holster deactivating the grip safety and then all it takes is for the trigger to be pressed. To qualify with my P 14-45 I had to buy an outside the belt holster for those stated safety reasons. I also qualified with a S&W 396 NG and had no problem keeping up with the magazine fed pistols.

  • scaatylobo

    My only objection is to this “fact” = 1911’s are “American’s favorite semi auot “.
    I prefer to judge by what people actually carry the most,I am betting the 1911 is NOT that gun.
    Yes,I carry the hated Glock = ONLY because it works and after 25 years —- NEVER a glitch of problem.
    I own a 1911,and have owned many including a ‘few’ Colts.
    I carry what I choose and I bet all here do too.
    And why they did this is beyond me.
    BUT the 1911 is NOT the favorite as judged by what is in holsters daily.

  • skeezix

    This ‘headline’ just convinced me to NOT take this class. The picture of the “instructor” with his finger on the trigger while the pistol is off target, doesn’t instill confidence in his ability to teach correct skills.

  • Philip Rowen

    I’m a life time NRA member and a life time 1911 owner. I’ve carried my 1911 since getting my CCW permit in 2002. Proud of my 1911 – not so much of the NRA. And this on the heals of kicking the USCCA out of the annual NRA convention hall!!! Concur with the comments on Jarretts grip and finger. They speak volumes by themselves. Sad

  • Shootist

    Colonel Cooper disagrees

    “The 1911 pistol remains the service pistol of choice in the eyes of those who understand the problem. Back when we audited the FBI academy in 1947, I was told that I ought not to use my 1911 in their training program because it was not fair. Maybe the first thing one should demand of his sidearm is that it be unfair. — Col. Jeff Cooper, GUNS & AMMO, January 2002

  • BOB

    If I need a back up gun for a 1911, It’ll be a 1911

  • Capn Stefano

    NRA needs to be abolished and GOA should become the premier 2nd Amendment group. I’ve lost track of the negative actions NRA has done over the decades I’ve been an activist. This issue is just a symptom. You folks do know they helped write the 1934 NFA, right? The org is bloated, self serving and obsolescent

  • John Wisch

    I can not believe the promotional photo, really LEVEL 1 teaches you to break Rule #3 of Col. Coopers 4 Rules, Or #2 of the NRA’s own list of Gun Safety. BTW then NRA’s list of Safety Rules are pathetic. They should have adopted Coopers years ago, but they suffer from the “IT WASN”T THOUGHT OF HERE” ! disease.

  • Gaspar Cruz III

    If the NRA does not correct this, it will be obvious that these so called “expert instructors” are part of the marketing arm of Glock. As someone who carries a 1911 daily, I suggest that the curriculum be changed. It should be a preference not a bias to any particular handguns.

  • Michael A. Albert

    The NRA has been doing some stupid crap with their courses of late. Is Nancy, we have to pass the bill to see whats in it, Pelosi on the board of directors somehow?
    And why does the instructor in the picture have his finger on the trigger on the draw????

  • Pistolero

    Once again, NRA steps on its own ****.

  • Skyviking

    Judging by their Director of Curriculum’s demo photo of his draw technique, I am surprised they allow Glocks! His trigger finger is inside the trigger guard going for the trigger before the muzzle is anywhere close to being on target, let alone his lower extremities (or his neighbor in the next spot on the line…). I’ll keep taking my kids to Gunsite.

  • Tom_EE

    Honestly, I don’t know even where to begin criticizing the NRA, this “rule”, and their Carry Guard program.

    First, James Jarrett in the above photo, and whoever decided to use that photo to represent ANYTHING the NRA is involved with, should immediately be fired! Drawing a pistol with your finger on the trigger is dangerous, very dangerous.

    Even though 1911’s is not my weapon of choice, I respect those that do rely on them for protection, and the protection of their loved one’s. It’s an individual’s right and responsibility to use and train with a weapon that THEY, not their instructor feels most comfortable. Honestly, I would be more concerned with someone who wanted to use a 22lr for self defense than a 1911, but I would still respect even that decision!

    Not allowing revolvers? Really? Again, a revolver is not my choice of a weapon, but I know many individuals who can’t effectively rack the slide on an automatic. This rule is doing a huge disservice in excluding many who rely on a revolver for protection.

    Last, our Constitution and Bill of Rights is about defining the limited role that our government is supposed to have in our lives, AND the rights that must not infringe on. In recent the government has become more of a nanny state than one that abides by their Constitutional limitations. Why is it that an organization whose primary role is defend our 2nd Amendment rights, is now becoming our 2nd Amendment Nanny?

    P.S. The NRA should GET OUT of telling us how to defend ourselves, and stick with lobbying the federal and state governments of abiding by 2A. And support the true meaning of 2A as it was originally written, a right to allow this Nation’s citizens to defend themselves, AND this Nation from ALL enemies, INCLUDING an overarching government!

  • cisco kid

    I wish someone would have interviewed the NRA as to the reasoning behind this rule. It makes no sense to me. But lately has the NRA made any sense on anything?

  • Kodi

    I’m betting NRA instructors don’t want to get bogged down in discussions about the differences between double action and single action handguns, with regard to safety, handling, operational and immediate action issues.
    In a class primarily intended for those with limited knowledge and first time experience with handguns, this could cause a lengthening of time allowed as well as confusion while diluting the training if the course is not developed, structured and conducted with those issues in mind.
    This may be reasonable as few newcomers will honestly carry a 1911 style or single action semi-auto as their primary handgun. If we can believe published reports by gun magazines and similar, 1911 style handguns require additional training and experience for most in the post striker fired polymer era.
    Just my guess.

    • AlDeLarge

      That was my first thought too, but they didn’t restrict it to striker fired guns without thumb safeties. That would make sense. 1911s aren’t the only SAO semiautos. There are polymer guns with hammers and/or thumb safeties, DA/SA with and without decockers. I don’t see how taking 1911s out makes all those possibilities significantly less.

  • John Wisch

    Hey Todd Jarrett, fix your Uncles grip and trigger finger problems will you ? And take his Go Pro away until you’ve fixed him.

  • Dave Buck

    The NRA has clearly lost the plot. That’s like running a cowboy action/SASS course and disallowing the Colt SAA.

  • John Gregory

    The ONLY reason to be a member of the NRA is it’s necessary to shoot at some ranges and required to shoot competition. Until two weeks before the Annual Meeting, the USCCA was welcome to come…

    Then they get disinvited and the NRA announces its own program… Just as Tactical Tim figured they would.

    Now the most battle-tested pistol in history isn’t ALLOWED in their worthless little class? Sheez, Like there’s not a few hundred tested and proven tactical schools out there. Hope this “teacher” has to retire for lack of business.

    As for all else to do with the NRA… I choose to forget that they exist. It’ll help me keep my language in check. After all, telling those that they REPRESENT what’s acceptable as a carry firearm… They’re as out of control as Congress.

  • James Madison

    “My 1911 will blow the torso clean off a bad guy while your plastic glock spontaneously explodes in your holster.”

    ~Typical 1911 Guy

  • bthomas

    Re: OP. Makes sense. The class is about carry guard. Not gaming. Makes perfect sense. Carry in just about any area means concealed. That’s reality. Further, very few people actually use a 1911 for anything but range/targets. Day in and day out, when you look and see what people are carrying … it’s a Glock or something similar. Emotions and sentimentalism not withstanding, that is just the way it is.

    • Zebra Dun

      I ride a horse everyday two to three hours and My horse back carry weapon is a Colt, Government model, series 70 MK IV in .45 acp.
      So, I make my EDC carry gun a 1911A1.

      • bthomas

        Understand your position. Just simply do not affirm it. NRA is addressing the broader reality that is lived day by day by average Americans, not less common interests. Same reason small game hunting gets little attention in any discussion about rifles, etc. Just not a lot of people doing it. Vast majority are not hunting.

        • dub baillie

          1911’s are unseen everywhere. I’d be more inclined to think that the neophyte concealed carrier with a clunky, chunky Glock is a lot more likely to not carry it and maybe just drop a Ruger LCP loose in a pocket. I carry a 1911 everyday all day anyplace that it’s legal for me to carry with no real issues and little discomfort. I had a totally different experience trying to carry the kludgy blobject that is a Glock so I sold them all

          • bthomas

            Have had 1911’s. Have had Glocks. Fine pistols. On a belt OC, it doesn’t matter. CC … small Glock packs easier and offers more capacity regardless of caliber. Just can’t do much w/ a 1911 to make it truly small. Still just heavy pistol with reduced capacity. Fine for those who want to fool with it. But otherwise, for people who are not into trying to adapt a older full-sized design … the Glock simply makes better sense.

  • Zebra Dun

    It takes an expert to handle and shoot the 1911A1 which with the current crop of NRA instructors probably leaves them out.
    Then again Glock sponsorship Ahemmmmm.

  • Humpy

    Barely cleared his holster and he’s already got his finger on the damn trigger!
    What are we supposed to learn from this fool?, besides leave your 1911, and/or revolvers at home.
    The NRA appears to be like a snowball headed for hell, especially with the recent power grab by those in charge to hold onto power as long as they want.
    Frankly I’m starting to be embarrassed to be an NRA life member anymore!

  • PaulWVa

    It’s hard to believe that they would run this picture with an article about handgun safety classes. I myself wouldn’t carry my 1911 simply because it’s to damn heavy to carry concealed. Yes, yes….I know everybody “says” they only carry a full size 1911. Like the guy in the fancy shirt behind the counter at Cabela’s…. yeah..uh-huh sure. I stick with .38 Airweight for minimal dress and max temps. Come jacket weather I might switch to my Sig 320 sub depending on the situation. I started shooting pistols and revolvers at age 12 making this my 50th year as handgunner….Keep your classed and silly rules about what to shoot, I’ll stick to those 50 years of experience and worry more about what I shoot and “who” too shoot.

  • praack

    oh well someone married to plastic guns and no safeties is running the course, so i would have to switch to a back up piece that i am not too familiar with, then listen to someone call me a noob for not being familiar with a plastic piece.

    been shooting 1911 platform since i first picked up a pistol in the late 70’s

  • XRGRSF

    I’m an NRA Benefactor Life Member. I’ve been in the NRA for a long time, and watched them get stranger, and stranger. I think what we’re having is a periodic case of institutional brain rot. I can only hope that it isn’t fatal.

  • richard kluesek

    For 20 years I carried a revolver as an Auxiliary Police peace officer and 30 years concurrently carried a 1911 and/or revolver for business protection in a big city blue state ghetto. I also drove vehicles with more than 400 cubic inch displacements. Thats what was to be had then. Now I pack polymer and drive motors measured in liters. Times change. Using a 1911 in 2017 would be like deploying to VietNam in ’68 with a civil war percussion revolver, technology more than a century old, and revolvers more so. Enjoy these for plinking, hunting, collecting, and just having because they’re cool.

  • Juan

    They probably just want their students to bring a modern handgun to the class. I don’t know of any reputable trainers who still advise people to carry a 1911, because anybody who knows anything understands that manual safeties get you killed in real-life CCW defensive situations, and that the 1911 linkage and extraction systems are antiquated and prone to cause malfunctions. The 1911 was a great gun. In 1911. A century later, the rest of the world has moved on.

  • Betsy Smith

    I think they pulled that picture and flushed it down the memory hole. I couldn’t find it anywhere on the CarryGuard website.

  • Funeral guy

    What about those of us who don’t care much for Glocks. (I prefer my Springfield full size XD). Will they put out a list of acceptable handguns? There is a world of difference between a Glock 17 and a Sig 226. Striker fired or with an exposed hammer? It just makes things confusing seems to me.

  • Mike Stewart

    What’re those fruit-loops thinking? Or are they even bothering?

  • Chi_Town_Hustler

    Having been a Certified Instructor For the NRA a well as Certified Firearms Instructor, Range Master and Chief Range Master through the University of Illinois / Police Training Institute; my opinion is BULL Train and shoot what you carry, Revolvers are excellent and I carry one of 2 1911 Models and the are not made by the companies You are Pushing! Shame on you!

  • Lockmazter

    One look at that douchebag “Green Beret / LAPD” vet (doubtful) and I would walk off the range. From the ridiculous glasses to the over-expressive face to the HORRIBLE trigger control…..everything says, “get far from this moron and don’t listen to anything the self-absorbed jerk has to say. Dangerous at best, foolish at least”!

  • Scott G. Jenkins

    I think it sounds like the instructor does not want to deal with beginners learning the ins and outs of carrying and using the 1911. I can kind of see where they are coming from even though I’m a huge 1911 fan. They just don’t want that extra worry of showing how to carry cocked and locked. You have to admit, it takes more time and practice to learn about a 1911, then it does with all the plastic point and shoot guns. I’m sure its different when you have the basics down, and you want to move on and learn more. Really you should never stop. There are plenty of guns I would take to a class like this( I’m not a Glock fan), they have there place, and well deserved. Me, I would take FNX 45 tactical for you plastic fans and the H&K V 45 tactical or Maybe a Sig, For the metal boys and girls. Just my opinion .

  • vpats

    Man, do I feel like a looser .. I have 2-Smith 357s a 4″ 66 and a 2.5″ 19 to top that off I have a 1911. NRA why have you forsaken me?

  • jimmyjet

    NRA: Never Reasonable Again. Getting dumber by the minute.

  • Ned Weatherby

    Seems all or most TFB readers immediately noticed the premature booger-hook on the bang-switch photo add for “NRA’s Carry Guard program.”

    Perhaps 1911 carriers neither want or need this type of “training.” My guess is most striker fired carriers aren’t too interested either.

  • Archie Montgomery

    I find the determination of ‘primary pistol’ as “limited”.

    Could it be the bulk of the instructors simply cannot properly handle or instruct in the proper use of the Government Model or variants? I’ve noted a number of ‘instructors’ who carry semi-automatic pistols and lean toward 9x19mm chamberings – because .45 ACP recoils too much – and non “cocked and locked” configurations due to the overly complicated procedure of knowing when to engage and disengage a manual safety.

    Not to mention the on-going confusion between competition matches and actual self-defense. (Fifteen round magazines and instantaneous reloads for a thirty round burst is de rigueur.)

  • Steven Kaspar

    The NRA is run buy a bunch of morons!

  • Doug Snodgrass

    If I’m going to take a class, I’m going to take one with the gun I carry.
    One thing I can tell you I don’t do, is pull my gun from battery with my finger on the trigger.
    Maybe it’s just best to skip this class.. to be on the safe side.

  • Doc

    The NRA, of which I am a life member, has secumbed to lawyers and gross ignorance: something I hate to say about the NRA. The 1911 does require a more conscious and well trained individual to be its handler, BUT, I can’t say I know of ANY 1911 shooters who, although not “experts” are unsafe with this pistol. Granted there are some who, due to their lack of education, indifference to safety, and ridiculous braggadocio SHOULD not be carrying this particular weapon. That said isn’t MY NRA supposed to be all about training and education? Sorry but this in invasion of lawyers does NOT bode well for the future of the NRA. I carried a 1911 of some sort for over thirty years, but, due to my old age switched to a lighter Ruger SR9C but I could switch back in an instant and be completely safe. The NRA should not be in the business of judging people. What next? No ugly black guns?

  • greatscot

    I went to the website. It states a semi auto or revolver. No reference to restrictions excluding 1911’s. Author needs to check his facts, Note that there is no link to the site. Fake news!!!

  • RickOAA .

    I find this lack of 1911 disturbing.

  • Robert E. Hays

    Why?

  • Mark Wynn

    Does NRA give a rationale for this policy?

  • Matt Gibbs

    get yo booger picker off the trigger next time.