SOCOM Wants…U.S. Made PKM and NSV?

Special Operations Command recently posted a solicitation on the government ran Small Business Innovation Research (SBIR) resource in regards to a need for a domestic U.S. manufacturer to produce exact copies of the Soviet 7.62x54r mm PKM medium machine gun, and the 12.7x108mm KSV heavy machine gun (Entry is fourth from bottom on web page). With these U.S. made machine guns, SOCOM intends to supply foreign forces the command is advising with higher quality machine guns. Explicitly mentioned in the solicitation is that secret squirrels are having issues with leading and mentoring indigenous forces but lack the capability of quality weapon systems or replacement parts. The plan calls for a completely U.S. made product, on U.S. soil, using domestic labor to create a “facsimile” of these machine guns

From the solicitation-

For decades surrogate forces and allies have depended on foreign made weapons which are used in conflicts around the world. USSOCOM intermittently supplies surrogate forces and allies with foreign made weapons from international intermediaries. These foreign made weapons lack interchangeability and standardization which hinders field and depot level part replacement. Developing a domestic production capability for foreign like weapons addresses these issues while being cost effective as well as strengthens the nation’s military-industrial complex, ensures a reliable and secure supply chain, and reduces acquisition lead times.

PHASE I: Conduct a feasibility study to assess what is in the art of the possible that satisfies the requirements specified in the above paragraph entitled Description. As a part of this feasibility study, Proposers shall address all viable system design options with respective specifications to reverse engineer or re-engineer and domestically produce the following foreign like weapons: 7.62×54R belt fed light machine gun that resembles a PKM (Pulemyot Kalashnikova Modernizirovany), and a 12.7×108mm heavy machine gun that resembles a Russian designed NSV (Nikitin, Sokolov, Volkov). Hereafter, foreign like weapons is defined as a 7.62×54R belt-fed machine gun and a 12.7×108mm heavy machine gun. Offerors must describe their approach to replicate foreign made weapons and mass produce foreign like weapons with the same form, fit and function as the foreign made weapon counterpart. The approach must describe all facets of design to production to include the actions, activities, and processes necessary to 1) develop drawings and specifications to replicate foreign weapons, 2) acquire and manufacture materials and parts, 3) bring together a production capability, and 4) develop methods for testing and evaluating the manufactured weapon to drawings and specifications. The approach shall also address the manufacture of spare parts to support fielded weapons.

The wording of the solicitation is extremely bizarre. For one, these weapon systems have been copied and produced in a number of Soviet bloc countries all over the world. Getting ahold of technical data packages and the expertise to produce them would not be a hard job at all for those in the U.S. firearms industry. A number of PKM parts and expertise is already present in the United States as it is. Although the KSV heavy machine gun would be a little more difficult simply due to the lack of its present in the U.S. Even one of America’s NATO allies in Europe, Poland, already has domestic PKM manufacture, NSV manufacture (WKM-B, .50 BMG), and even has an upgraded and modernized PKM at that.

Despite this ease, SOCOM is insisting that manufacturers attempt to “reverse engineer” these designs to produce a machine gun that has the “same form, fit and function as the foreign made weapon counterpart”. One begs to ask that if SOCOM wants these Soviet machine guns so badly, the command could more easily attempt to get the technical data packages and expertise from Polish allies, and simply have a company in the United States produce it. It appears that SOCOM is doing itself a disservice by overcomplicating the solicitation unnecessarily. Of course, there might be a legality that prevents such blatant design theft, and this might be the cause of the wording.





Miles

Infantry Marine, based in the Midwest. Specifically interested in small arms history, development, and usage within the MENA region and Central Asia. To that end, I run Silah Report, a website dedicated to analyzing small arms history and news out of MENA and Central Asia.

Please feel free to get in touch with me about something I can add to a post, an error I’ve made, or if you just want to talk guns. I can be reached at miles@tfb.tv


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  • USMC03Vet

    Obviously a Russian hack!

    • mosinman

      first the President (not mine of course lolololoo) next our military, where will it end?!?!?!?!

      • Amplified Heat

        I hear Lada is producing the Humvee replacement

    • Sermon 7.62

      Yes. The Russians are bad

  • datimes

    I think I would like to buy one.

  • Tormund Giantsbane

    Shut up and take my money!

  • iksnilol

    Make an NSV in .50 BMG and dump the M2.

    • Major Tom

      NSV is crap compared to the Deuce.

      • Giolli Joker

        What about the Kord?

        • Major Tom

          Better than the NSV. On par with the Deuce.

          • Giolli Joker

            Substantially lighter, though.

          • Major Tom

            The Russians did intend for it to be man portable like a heavy machine gun version of the PKM/PKP.

          • Sermon 7.62

            That means not “on par” but better. It’s 25.5 kg against 38 kg, plus a buttstock and a scope mount.

          • Major Tom

            What the Kord gains in weight reduction, it lost to the Deuce in complexity. It has at least twice the moving parts and no real performance difference.

            Plus how many planes and helicopters has the Kord destroyed in its career? The Browning has thousands if not tens of thousands if you include its use as an aircraft gun.

          • noob

            Kord was introduced in 1998, and the M2 was adopted in 1930. I guess we have to see how the Kord shakes out after the World War 5 Armistice in the year 2085.

          • Amplified Heat

            How fast is a Kord barrel change to an M2, and how reliable?

          • Amplified Heat

            And far easier to operate, I’d imagine (the M2HB is like an old Airhead BMW in its elderly-school, fiddly, maintenance & expertise intensive approach)

          • valorius

            You guys know about the M2A1 right?

        • int19h

          Kord is better, being designed by competent people who learned from the lessons of designers before them much later than M2.

          M2 is “good enough”, which is why no-one is rushing to replace it.

      • iksnilol

        No, M2 is so crap it has crap right in the name.

        • Major Tom

          The M2 has outlasted three separate attempts at replacing it. Always proving itself the better and more cost effective option.

          • iksnilol

            It’s literally so cheap they can’t throw it away. It’s never been better. Twice as heavy and needs to be headspaced all the time does not better mean.

          • gi

            don’t forget there’s also a QCB model

          • Phil Hsueh

            The latest versions of the M2 no longer require headspacing after changing the barrel. Granted it took the US a long while to finally field an M2 with that feature but it’s a feature in them now.

          • iksnilol

            Feature now? After like almost a 100 years they finally included a feature that’s been standard for the past 70 years? Remarkable… what’s next? They’ll have turbos in military trucks?

            And it is still twice as heavy as needed (more ammo can be carried for that weight).

          • Phil Hsueh

            Probably typical conservatism by the military brass being unwilling to mess with what works, you know, if ain’t broke, why fix it? Of course, the brass weren’t the ones having to always check the headspace and timing on the things every time you changed the barrel.

          • Amplified Heat

            Turbos? Nah, gotta maintain that whatever-tiny-number-it-is Horsepower to weight ratio we have in the Humvee, that makes a Model T seem spirited.

          • valorius

            The M2 is a vehicle mounted weapon. It’s weight is irrelevant.

          • iksnilol

            Not really, weight is always relevant. You could carry an extra box of ammo for it if it weighed half.

            Vehicles have their limits as well. And some poor bastards also have to carry the thing to mount it different places. And it can’t be used without a mount. A Kord or NSV is specifically made to be able to be used as an anti-materiell rifle by dismounted troops. You can’t with an objective mind claim the M2 is better than the NSV or Kord.

          • valorius

            So 3 lbs on a squad automatic weapon is irrelevant, but the weight of a weapon that’s really only ever employed as a vehicle mounted or static weapon matters.

            Gotcha.

          • iksnilol

            Only reason it is vehicle mounted/static is because it is too heavy.

          • valorius

            Fortunately for the US military they probably have over a million vehicles.

          • iksnilol

            You’re a special breed of stupid, ain’t ya?

            Extra capability + reduced strain is always a better thing.

          • valorius

            Have you ever fired an M2, NSV, or Kord?

          • gunsandrockets

            I imagine they took that step only because they finally used up that mountain of surplus M2 guns and parts that were mass produced during WWII.

          • Amplified Heat

            “Damn it, it just keeps amortizing! We can’t win!”

          • valorius

            M2A1 requires no headspacing.

          • Amplified Heat

            I don’t think that the M85 really qualifies as a serious attempt at replacement, as opposed to an intentional waste of time and tax-payer dollars (a serious manager would have dumped it in the prototype phase, and used the lessons learned to produce a real alternative HMG). It’s worth mentioning that the M2 has also ‘survived’ multiple attempts to address legitimate shortcomings with real improvements, like replacing obviously clapped-out & unreliable units, for instance. This speaks more to incompetent or cheap management than the merits of an ancient machine.

        • TheNotoriousIUD

          Youre wrong but thats funny.

        • RocketScientist

          Hehehehe, not saying I agree with the sentiment. But thats funny right there.

    • valorius

      What on earth for? The M2A1 is a sensational weapon.

      • iksnilol

        Becasuse the M2 sucks. Can’t be operated dismounted from a vehicle (unlike an NSV) and it weighs literally twice as much as it needs to.

        Simply put, an NSV does more with a smaller footprint.

        • valorius

          An M2 can be fired from a tripod.

          Apparently you have not heard about the new titanium version that weighs just 60lbs. Was actually reading an article about it earlier today.

          • iksnilol

            Nsv can be fired from shoulder.

          • Brett baker

            Do you want to?

          • iksnilol

            Why not? It’s just a 50 bmg rifle.

          • valorius

            Not standing it can’t.

          • iksnilol

            Yeah it can, seen it done.

            If that was true, then neither a Barret could be fired standing.

          • valorius

            Sure, people can shoulder fire a weapon that weighs 80lbs loaded. STFU moron.

          • iksnilol

            Done easily with the Kord. Which weighs about the same as the NSV.

            So STFU old timer. Before you blow your top.

          • valorius

            You said shoulder fired numbskull.

          • iksnilol

            Stock tucked under shoulder is shoulder fired.

            If you want to be literal, no guns are shoulder fired since we use fingers to pull triggers.

          • valorius

            Stock tucked under shoulder is not shoulder fired. Stock AGAINST shoulder is shoulder fired.

            That was a RIDICULOUS video of some really big dude firing semi auto at nothing in particular. What was displayed on that video has exactly zero practical value whatsoever.

        • mazkact

          Now you have done it. The future does not belong to those who slander the name of the prophet John Moses Browning.

          • iksnilol

            The M2 was John Moses’ poop. Thus the name.

  • Harry’s Holsters

    You can’t count on the government to do things efficiently.

  • Paul Epstein

    Maybe they already asked Poland, and they said no? It’s important to remember that they’re specifically calling these out for use by non-US forces being overseen by special forces. That means a lot of places that are problematic politically to be assisting us with, particularly important is Syria. The guns are also going to be in inventory, and dispensed by SOF to the troops they are training, for decades, and it’s impossible for Poland to reverse course if we intervene somewhere that is even more objectionable for them down the line.

    Keeping it local means that only the US Government needs to approve, which is a heck of a lot simpler.

  • Vhyrus

    *Adjusts tinfoil hat*

    This is obviously intended to facilitate false flag attacks using clandestine agents or field assets. A US sourced weapon could be marked with any necessary production marks and used in or merely planted at a battle in order to implicate a particular foreign power in order to create an international incident as the impetus for a ‘legal’ invasion or other hostile act.

    • Amplified Heat

      “No, these couldn’t possibly be Russian; the workmanship is far too competent”
      or conversely, if Century is contracted;
      “No, these couldn’t possibly be considered weapons”

  • micmac80

    Criminaly insane idea, half of new Nato members use and/or manufacture soviet firearms so why bother with production in US. Given how bad US AK47 clones are , there is not much hope PKM and NSV would be made to any usable spec in US

    • neckbone

      Some well connected manufacturer with a retired general running it will get a contract for these, and will charge $100,000 a piece.

    • I don’t have an issue with this. Why should the US be spending our money on foreign guns?

      • int19h

        Because it would probably spend less money overall than it would on guns manufactured in US.

        And it could use the money it saved to, say, increase VA funding or something.

    • inchang

      US made AKs aren’t that bad and there’s always room for improvement. Of course domestic manufactured rifles would be the first reaction when Obama put up sanctions against russian imports, so either you roll with it or dont bother with it.

  • Noishkel

    Well unless I’m mistaken wasn’t DSArms making US made .308 PKMs a while back? I thought they were even all US made, just not available to the public.

    • Anonymoose

      I know Vltor makes PKM receivers. I looked it up just now and DSA apparently did play around with the PKM like 10 or more years ago.

  • Audie Bakerson

    No Dragunov? There’s actually a civilian market for that.

    • Major Tom

      I’d buy a full power SVD.

      • iksnilol

        A 6.5×55 SVD using doublestack mags would be a dream.

        • Major Tom

          Hell, I’d take two. One in .308 that takes M14/NATO 7.62 mags and the original in 7.62 Russian.

        • mazkact

          Are you and I the only ones here who love the 6.5×55 ? It was 6.5 way before 6.5 was cool. Loaded to its full capability it is truly THE round.

          • iksnilol

            I like a bit milder loads. Brass and barrels last hella long then.

        • mechamaster

          Ow yeah !

    • Christian Hedegaard-Schou

      Why would USSOCOM care about the consumer firearms market?

      • Audie Bakerson

        They wouldn’t, but it’s still disappointing. If they thought they’d get a government contract you’d see companies jump in on US made Dragunovs.

  • TheNotoriousIUD

    Now seems like the right time to flood the Middle East with high quality weaponry.

    • CommonSense23

      Who said anything the middle east?

      • Major Tom

        Well SOCOM is sure as sh*t not going to adopt these weapons in any meaningful quantity outside of adversarial training or familiarization with using enemy weapons.

        • micmac80

          They are asking specificaly for clandestine supply to US suported Jihadis and terrorists (like they supplied AKs to Muj in Afghanistan ),For own use they can get gun here and there from the field

      • TheNotoriousIUD

        I dont know if youve been watching the news for the past 15 or 16 years but…

        • CommonSense23

          I have. I also know that the vast majority of FID Socom does ain’t in the middle east.

          • TheNotoriousIUD

            Well, you probably know more than me on that subject but ill bet you $20 these weapons are heading someplace hot and sandy.

            (Not Cabo)

          • CommonSense23

            The vast majority aren’t going to the middle east. People just don’t realize how much ammo and guns fid requires when Socom is pulling. You talk about trying to train up another countries “SOF” force. You start seeing 300 rounds per man a day, times 80 guys 5 days a week. Just for the AK. And you haven’t even got into the belt feds yet. You break a lot of guns doing these shooting schedules.

          • TheNotoriousIUD

            Fair enough.
            Im not exactly hoping forward to another decade long entanglement over in Super Happy Fun Land.

          • neckbone

            Where is the vast majority going then?

          • Bulldog6

            To the middle east. There aren’t enough soviet type weapons left. The ones out there are in need of referb. Poland isn’t really an option because I don’t think they want to get heavily involved and I’d rather a US company profits over a middle man.

          • Raptor Fred

            In this general continental vicinity. With a much more strict dress code tho. Don’t forget a dash of jihad. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/152ecf603b85c006a0984e3c6d0e15dc36781216469edb6e33500d4578678021.jpg

          • valorius

            Ukraine?

          • somedingus

            I believe it rhymes with shumb schmaharha schmafrica.

          • valorius

            Because Shumb Schmaharha schmafrican muslims will neeeever turn on us like happened in Shmolia.

          • forrest1985

            Blackpool was hot and sandy last week?…

    • Ranger Rick

      Gasoline on a fire always makes things better…

    • Brett baker

      Sometimes…..you just gotta que the Wagner.

  • DGR

    The answer was very clearly stated in the quoted solicitation.

    “These foreign made weapons lack interchangeability and standardization which hinders field and depot level part replacement.”

    • noob

      Ah I guess they could ask a local contractor to do some hand fitting?

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a04ea7b4f8c833457a184322911f594ef3c783e5aed7bf0717a0f7b048fcfccc.jpg

    • Amplified Heat

      It’s a total joke, seeing as production quality & dimensions vary so wildly across the available units. We’d have to document a large number of each nation’s production of each platform to even hope to come up with swappable replacement parts. Bothering to buy up available parts kits is (sadly, for builders) a far more plausible approach if the goal is not to waste tax payer money, which is why that’s exactly what commercial builders do.

      • They aren’t suggesting that US made parts would interchange with foreign made weapons. They would instead of procuring a mishmash of foreign made guns for US allies, they would instead supply US made guns all made by a single source so the parts interchange.

        • Amplified Heat

          How’s that better than simply supplying designs we already make & have in quantity, then?

          • If I were to guess I would say these two reasons.
            1. Our weapons aren’t really appropriate for them. All weapons are designed with preventive MX with users that are more dedicated to the upkeep of them than many indigenous forces are are willing to invest. And they are weapons that they are already somewhat familiar with the operation.

            2. Optics, it looks bad when terrorists are using US weapons on TV, so in the case that the weapons fall into terrorist hands you can’t tell that they are US provided just from a quick picture or video.

    • roguetechie

      Then we should definitely go with Zastava… Aka the people that figured the $20 way to make a good switch barrel switch caliber AK.

      As compared to what US palm had to do to make their switch bbl Ak several years ago for SHOT it’s a masterwork of simplicity and will actually make for a gun with a longer service life to boot!

      This is like asking Honda to clone your ’96 neon super sport…

      Dumb

  • Giolli Joker

    Looks like a job for Century Arms…

    • b0x3r0ck

      Almost feels like DSArms is a better bet.

    • Big Daddy

      if they want junk yes Century arms.

      • Scott P

        They are the largest AK-centric company in the U.S. The next one down from them, I.O., makes Century look good by comparison.

        There is no viable AK maker domestically unless they build from parts kits and even then that is a hit or miss proposition.

        • int19h

          PSA?

        • Raguel A’septem

          ArsenalUSA? Hello?

    • noob

      The Tupolev Tu-95 “Bear” is a scaled up version of the Tupolev Tu-4 which in turn is a direct copy of the Boeing B-29 Superfortress. According to cold war defector and notorious raconteur Viktor Suvorov the original Tu-4 prototype was an **EXACT** copy of the captured B-29 example… right down to the bullet patches in the skin.

      I guess imitation really is the most sincere form of flattery.

      • int19h

        Don’t give too much credit to Suvorov – he is known to invent a lot of the stories that he’s peddling.

        Tu-4 is indeed a fairly close copy of B-29, but nowhere even near to “bullet patches in the skin” level. For example, because of the difference between metric and Imperial units, Soviets didn’t always have the right source materials (sheets, bolts etc) to match the spec – and they didn’t want to start producing those, since the whole point of that project was to get a good bomber *fast*, and that meant using what they already had. In some cases, this required changing dimensions elsewhere to fit everything into place. They also used readily available components, such as existing Soviet engines and guns.

        • Brett baker

          The Victor Surorov pseudonym was used by several people, I understand. Loved the story about the railroad bridge, though.

          • int19h

            It’s a single guy, Vladimir Rezun.

      • Max Glazer

        Tu-95 is related to Tu-4 in a same way AR-15 is related to AK by being a magazine-fed assault rifle of traditional layout.

        The differences (I know they are minute really hey?) Swept long wings on Tu-95 vs straight on Tu-4
        Tu-95 uses turboprop engines with contra-rotating propellers vs piston engines on Tu-4
        Entirely different internal structural layout between the two
        Different avionic suites.

    • marathag
  • forrest1985

    Next they can manufacture RPK copies and that solves the Armys req for a mag fed LSW/SAW

  • Kelly Jackson

    Wouldn’t mind having this mounted to a Jeep rollbar for dealing with insurg… errrr.. peaceful road obstructers

  • Flounder

    It really sounds like they want something very similar to the PKM but modernized (rails, optic rails, suppressor, etc). It also seems like they are trying to write the requirements so that anyone can show up with whatever they want.

    The ultimax LMG also fits the bill does it not?

    • Amplified Heat

      Jeez, just buy some short-barrel MG3’s from the Germans; NATO-compatible caliber and infinitely nicer than any PKM (“ooh, an AK with steel fencepost for a reciever instead of a shovel”). I’m guessing they’ve already got pic-rail mods, too.

  • RSG

    I could see the advanatage being it better to take US taxpayer money, and instead of spending that money with foreign arms makers or countries, spending it here at home on US arms, built by US workers, in US factories. I like it!!!!

    • Anonymoose

      All so we can give weapons away for free to terrorists who hate us! 😀

      • FarmerB

        All at $1000 per copy rather than $100.

        • valorius

          $1000 per copy? I think you’re being wildly optimistic.

          • roguetechie

            No joke!

            The only reason PKM’s come to the American gun guy’s mind as a “cheap” alternative to full power cartridge firing LMG’s/GPMG’s made in the west has to do with the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact resulting in corrupt officials selling off massive small arms stockpiles at less than the price of scrap steel nearly!

            Economics is not most people’s strong suits… Couple this to the finer points of production engineering and industrial design and you get people that genuinely believe that if only the government didn’t interfere they could get a 3 series BMW new for $18,995!

          • valorius

            I’d definitely buy a new 3 series for $18,995 😀

            I had a 2006 330CI convertible for a couple years, loved that car!

          • roguetechie

            Right, but you get my point here… What we used to pay for parts kits and whole guns was never sustainable and even at the time represented American importers taking advantage of a situation where stuff was being sold at way below anything resembling replacement pricing!

            Part of what made the 2 machine guns I constantly bring up so neat was that they would have been extraordinarily cheap to produce. AAI figured that they could produce and sell the .50 caliber versions for $2000 each at a time when M2 Brownings were being bought actively under Federal contracts for $10,000 each!

            It’s really not at all amiss to extrapolate out and come up with a new build semiautomatic 5.56 belt fed with a 7.62 conversion kit would still cost well under $3000 at this point had we adopted the domestic LMG design which should’ve been bought over both FN designs and ALL their sub variants!

            Contrast this with the fact that the cheapest semiautomatic m249 on the market right now is FN’s version which is still pushing $8000 each in just 5.56 with not a prayer of getting a maximi in semi under $10,000 at least.

  • Joe

    Wow, all that effort to arm our foreign trainees with a quality PKM, while our guys lug around non-LW M240’s….

    • roguetechie

      Right because $30,000 machine guns are in any way a good idea…

      Especially when we had a BETTER gun in the 70’s we shelved which could’ve served our 5.56&7.62 needs very ably while being almost as cheap to make by the 10,000 as AR15’s…

      Quick strategic geography/geology lesson here…

      What country has most of the world’s usable titanium come from?

      Hint: there used to be a hammer, sickle, yellow, and red in their flag!

  • John Ruhl

    B A MG

  • Jose

    What about Arsenal-Kazanlak? They manufacture PKMs as well the original PK machine guns as well the NSV. Same thing with Zastava Arms; surely they can make a deal to transfer the know how while machine tools and equipment can be set up in country. Eventually, the tooling could be upgraded to make AK-100 type rifles, if that’s the wishes of SOCOM. Better Kalashnikov-USA hurry up in bringing their products, if they want to be in the competition. But, that’s just my opinion.

  • Ben Loong

    Hm, the last time a U.S. manufacturer made Combloc heavy weapons for export was Airtronic with its RPG-7 clone. Unfortunately that endeavor didn’t end so well when they went bankrupt.

    That said, I wonder of U.S. Ordnance might be up to the challenge of reverse-engineering those two designs.

  • john huscio

    Vitor makes PKMs or PKM parts.

  • steveday72

    Probably headed to the “White Helmets” – who, in case you aren’t keeping up on these things, are funded by the US CIA, UK MI6.

    The White Helmets were responsible for shutting off the water supply for the 5million people who were trapped in Aleppo. They have signed documents in participation with Al’Qaeda. They are not the “good guys” they are often portrayed as in the MSM.

    The CIA&MI6 bureaucrats keep inventing ways to keep their power growing and the money flowing to friends in the Military Industrial Complex. That’s what the Deep State is.

    • Jeremy

      Glad to know not even terrorists can get away from paperwork

  • Renato H M de Oliveira

    Since Buraq O’dumba re-established ties with Cuba, why not buy from them for some US$ 50/gun?
    That will make them more than happy.
    I’m pretty sure that they can even stamp US flags on them if you pay an extra 50 cents per weapon.

  • The knowledge isn’t lost, it is uncommon in the firearms industry but there are still companies that do stampings in the US.

    The countries that they are providing them to typically already run Combloc weapons. So it is easier to provide them with Combloc weapons that they already know. But finding quality Combloc weapons (which is a bit of a Oxymoron) without buying them from hostile or possibly hostile countries.

    SOCOM probably feels that is better to spend twice as much and ensure that their supply line is tighter, high quality control, and they don’t have to deal with foreign nations when buying.

    And honestly I would rather that US tax dollars go to US jobs whenever possible.

  • SP mclaughlin

    Spot the Slavaboo!

    • Green Hell

      Flattering to be mistaken for American, but i’m actualy an actual Russian from Russia.

  • Brett baker

    The M2 is an anti-material machine gun, not a precision rifle.

    • Major Tom

      It’s precise enough that when set to Semi (you can do that), it can hit a point target on the move at over 2000 yards. The guy who did that? Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock.

      • valorius

        There is no semi setting, it’s just got a slow enough rate of fire that you can easily fire single shots with it.

        • some other joe

          No, the M2 does have a single shot setting. It must be specifically disengaged to allow automatic fire and engaged again to field strip the weapon.

          • valorius

            You’re right. It’s been a couple decades since i fired one.

        • Major Tom

          Ya know that part that looks like a sideways D right below the butterfly trigger? Disengage that to where it sticks out and you’re then in Semi.

          The ability to switch to Semi like that dates back to its earliest roots during development as an anti-tank rifle way back in the day but ultimately decided they wanted more firepower.

        • McThag

          You can crank the timing so that it becomes a semi-auto.

      • Brett baker

        My bad, I forgot that. I forgot to point out a lot of the M2’s inaccuracy comes from the cartridges being loaded for dispersal rather than tight groups.

        • Major Tom

          The loads are often mixed too especially in aircraft usage. AP, ball, API, HEIAP (Raufoss 211), and tracer types for each. Every single one of those including tracer versions has different ballistics from all the others. If you ran for example a pure belt of API with tracer the M2 shoots straight as a laser almost in terms of groupings.

  • Nergyl

    First a request for a silenced 1,100+ meter-ranged light machine gun, and now Russian arms for SOCOM?

    What the hell? I feel like I’ve just walked into a Dan Brown novel.

  • hikerguy

    i am starting to wonder about some of the ideas that our military have come up the past few days for new weapon procurement. This is equally strange, especially since we have access to ones made by the Poles and others.

    • Amplified Heat

      They want a piece of that fat money cake that Trump is promising them with his emphasis on military spending. They weren’t asking for this stuff under Obama because they don’t need it, and never have. “Waah, our Hadji frenemy operations suffer from a shortage of PKM extractors” we have a solution to that, and it’s giving them US weapons & logistical support. We aren’t doing that, because our support is half-baked and unserious (and most likely unwise in both the short and long term in the first place)

  • Amplified Heat

    RPK as a replacement for the M249? Okay, sure (not defending the 249’s shortcomings, namely it’s stupid-high weight & size). The RPK has always been a really odd duck, specifically due to its non-changeable barrel, but also the selection of cartridge. Basically a fat(er) AK, which is analogous to the also-kind-of-impractical M17 as LMG concept we’re playing at today. The guns worked as well as the AKs, because they are AKs, but I’ve never quite understood what they were supposed to be that AKs weren’t already (with a bipod & maybe somewhat heavier barrel). Same thing I wonder about the M17s. To my way of thinking, the purpose of an LMG is to deliver significantly more volume of fire than a plain infantry rifle, and you won’t get that with box-mags alone (drums, maybe, but belts are the obvious answer). Giving a guy a slightly heavier version of the gun next to him & formally assigning him the task of shooting more than the other squad mates seems like a half-assed approach.

    Most of the other ideas are reasonable (apart from the SVD, which is so wildly and obviously overhyped and mythologized, especially in the US, that I have to assume it’s no better than a nice SKS with a better cartridge in reality, certainly not an equal to the high-end precision AR10ish options that abound today, in far better chamberings). What’s truly funny about the whole notion of “Russians already have a better version of all imaginable weapons” is it’s due to the Soviets’ insistence on fielding a very wide variety of platforms –for good or bad– so as to generate demand for more weapons production and the design shops. So while the Soviets had a wider array of suitable weapons that the US would have been wiser to take some cues from, they had a positively massive number of flop programs that were all somewhere between laughably impractical and just plain abandoned (Korobov’s many rifles come to mind). By fielding a large number of designs, they used proxy wars and occupations as tactical laboratories, and developed their preferred tactics.

    The US did the same thing, but substituting arrogance & reckless abandon for the scientific approach to warfare in many of its proxy conflicts (since warfare is seen by us as more a demonstration of our preparation than a learning/adaptation opportunity, at least initially). The M16 was kind of unique in that its requirements were more or less numerically derived from data compiled by the DOD as opposed to expert opinions.

    • valorius

      Great post.

  • Amplified Heat

    To be fair, they’ve replaced or modified practically all the M16’s parts over the years in also-corrupt upgrade contracts, to the point we have the M27 that doesn’t even have the same gas system

  • Tassiebush

    Why would they assume it would be economical when the labour costs are clearly so different. It’s not the design that makes them cheaper.

    • Amplified Heat

      Yeah, it’s the slave labor production. It wasn’t even economical (or ultimately, afforable) for the Soviet Union or its satellites to produce these things. Just because we/they inherited them for free after the fall of the Iron Curtain doesn’t mean a price wasn’t paid by someone. But when has America’s military *ever* cared about whether something was affordable? It being here *now* has always been the real overriding concern (which is also why making PKMs from scratch is a stupid idea)

      I bet the guy who managed Marlin under Remington came up with this boneheaded plan (“it’s so easy, we’ll just reverse engineer these old designs & make ’em on CNC for cheap! Foolproof!”)

  • Scott P

    Pfft we can’t even make a basic AKM clone right (Century, I.O., and swarms of others) and now they want a PKM built??

    Haha good luck with that!!

  • Amplified Heat

    If these guys had half a brain, they’d require that either semi-auto conversions or parts kits be produced as part of the contract, and use the proceeds from those civilian sales to fully fund the program. Each SVD or PKM kit/rifle would easily sell to civies for at least double what any padded DOD bid would come to, so they’d probably even have enough left for the all-important bonuses.

  • Avid Fan

    Quick somebody call…
    Hyah Ah am!
    Will? Is that you?!?!?
    Ain neh bin dun bafo.
    WILL!
    Red Jacket to the Rescue. When all you have is a pipe wrench and a hammer.

    • mazkact

      Hayden is currently occupied with Bubba.

  • valorius

    Sure, let’s arm those muslims up with quality US made clones of Commie gear for when they turn on us.

  • valorius

    Military dot com, nov 30, 2012:

    “The Army began upgrading its M2 fleet to M2A1s in 2011. The program is
    pursuing both upgrade kits as well as new procurements to modernize the
    Army’s entire M2 inventory of more than 54,000 guns.

    All currently fielded M2s will be upgraded to the new M2A1 configuration
    at Anniston Army Depot (ANAD) utilizing Quick Change Barrel conversion
    kits.

    In addition, the Army contracted General Dynamics Armament and Technical
    Products (GDATP) to manufacture and deliver 9,758 new M2A1s.

    As of October 1, ANAD has converted more than 3,700 M2s into M2A1s and GDATP has delivered more than 7,400 new M2A1s.”

    I would imagine by now they’ve all been upgraded.

    • Amplified Heat

      Fantastic. The barrel setting was, frankly, a glaring design/safety flaw that should have never gone on this long. That it was not addressed post/during WWII is rather ridiculous. That just leaves the spring/rod safety issue, and the overall needlessly heavy aspects to be addressed.

      • valorius

        Ironically, i just found this online today too:

        “US Army making titanium 50 cal machine guns that are 60 pounds instead of 86”
        next big future dot com, june 5, 2017

  • valorius

    WTF to your entire post…

  • valorius

    What can possibly go wrong?

  • int19h

    So… if you know someone who knows someone at SOCOM, could you like whisper in their ear that they should also add AKs to the list?

    I mean, it’s a win-win: some glorious freedom fighter in Syria can maybe hit another target or two before becoming shaheed insha’Allah, and we here in US will finally get an AK manufacturer that cranks out known-reliable stuff with no corners cut.

  • Bucky Barkingham

    Military procurement thinking: re-invent the wheel instead of buying off the shelf from friendly foreign suppliers.

  • Tim

    Dear SOCOM,

    Can I borrow a functioning example so I can attempt to reverse engineer it?

    Oh and I need a unlimited suppy of ammo too.

    Regards,

    Tim

  • mechamaster

    Make it better, something like KORD in .50BMG ( yes, it can be used as 2-man infantry heavy machinegun )
    or PKP in 7.62x51mm version as for M60E4 alternative.

  • Brett baker

    The American term “Not invented here” applies more than sanctions

    • Green Hell

      M9 (Beretta)
      M11 (SIG)
      XM17 (SIG)
      M249 (FN)
      M240 (FN)
      M27 (HK)
      Mk.17 (FN)
      M1014 (Benelli)
      MP5 (HK)
      MP7 (HK)
      AT4 (Saab Bofors)
      M3 Carl Gustaf (Saab Bofors)
      M32 (Milcor)
      M320 (HK)
      Those are foreign weapons of US military just from the top of my head, i’m sure there is much more if i look it up.

      • roguetechie

        Yes and the m240/249 should have never been adopted for here since we did have a superior design in the competition that basically got screwed out of a win by some serious epic stupid…

        Likewise, the NSV is only exciting because we failed to adopt our superior M2 browning replacement several years later…

        Some of the guys that designed the gun we SHOULD have instead of the 240/249 designed this other gun too…

        Before you say something dumb about 12.7×108, yeah it could run that too!

        …Also 14.5kpv & 20mm Vulcan for that matter…

        Both guns would’ve been freakishly cheap (and FAST) to produce too.

        Also, just FYI the (xm17) is a Sig USA design, not Swiss.

        Don’t get me wrong, I have much respect for the PKM & NSV… But never get it twisted into thinking you guys actually out innovated Americans…

        As usual we just got royally f***end by our decision makers and let extremely good technology wither and die on the vine…

        In a way, that itself is a testament to the US though, we can AFFORD to throw away better stuff than anyone else can even come up with and STILL be the most dangerous nation on earth by a wide margin!

      • roguetechie

        Oh, and never mention the M27 again… It’s an abortion, and we’re working on rectifying the issue… LOL

        Oh wait… Damn decision makers again!!

        WTF GUYS!

        quit making us look dumb!

  • John

    As of 7:42 p.m. Pacific time on June 7, 2017… it says “page not found”.

    Interesting.

  • Seth Hill

    If SOCom will provide fairly new, hardly used, examples of the guns, I will build them, after getting all the required federally mandated licenses, as long as I get to keep one working copy of each gun.

  • jay

    They need Russian weapons for their next false flag operations.

  • Ryfyle

    Hell of a way to get around 922.

  • robert matthews

    One wonders why they couldn’t just get genuine eastern bloc guns…But if my memory serves me right didn’t Colt make a whole batch of AKs for the CIA to dish out..? Regarding the picture of the monkey posted by Giolli Joker..wih the caption ” looks like a job for century arms..” what if anything is the problem with Century Arms..? please advise

  • f35hunter
  • Guido FL

    People forget President Trump’s directive: ” Buy American products made by Americans “. Could Colt, Ruger, Remington, etc. handle this volume order ? The small AK gun makers are just that, small.

  • Guido FL

    Lack knowledge of stamps for firearms, like the M-60 ?

    • Max Glazer

      And M-60 has long been an unreliable POS

  • uisconfruzed

    Just buy them from Poland or Czechoslovakia, that way it won’t be obvious to all, wherever they end up (Mexico?) the US isn’t the obvious supplier.

  • KFeltenberger

    I’m not surprised…this is the Army…let’s take something simple and make it as complex as possible, then waste millions of dollars during the process and testing, and then cancel it.

  • Sam Whittemore

    Ohio Ordnance!

  • squareWave

    Maybe we should just stop playing this game of arming and training the guys who will be our enemies in 10-20 years?