BAMF or Crazy? Officer Stops Chase with M4 Through Windshield… While Driving!

Capture

In what is liable to be debated in tactical and police circles for years to come, an Oklahoma Highway Patrol trooper engaged with and stopped a fleeing murderer with his duty carbine, while driving at the same time. Typically, it is not recommended to try two potentially deadly activities at once, but the officer was able to pull it off, ending a pursuit in dramatic fashion.

The suspect was Michael Vance, who had just recently stabbed and shot two family members and shot two Wellston, Oklahoma officers (the officers were treated for nonlife-threatening wounds). Prior to the chase scene shown below, Vance had stolen multiple automobiles including a police cruiser. From there he carjacked another civilian, shot a woman, and made a getaway to the family members he is suspected of murdering.

Suffice to say, Michael Vance was an extraordinary criminal that warranted extraordinary measures to stop.

The trooper managed to pull off an extraordinary task. He managed to shoot – accurately, while driving a vehicle, at a moving target. His dashcam shows incredible tactics that he pulled off soundly. Unfortunately, the OHP may need a new windshield and the officer’s hearing should be checked, but the bad guy did not get away.

What say you? Was the choice to engage a tactically sound decision? There was incredible risk in doing so. Or, was it an extraordinary requirement that the trooper pulled off?

 



Nathan S.

One of TFB’s resident Jarheads, Nathan now works within the firearms industry. A consecutive Marine rifle and pistol expert, he enjoys local 3-gun, NFA, gunsmithing, MSR’s, & high-speed gear. Nathan has traveled to over 30 countries working with US DoD & foreign MoDs.

Nathan can be reached at Nathan.S@TheFirearmBlog.com

The above post is my opinion and does not reflect the views of any company or organization.


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  • Major Tom

    I would have simply rammed him off the road then moved in weapon drawn for apprehension. Not shoot first and hope for the best.

    • Just say’n

      1 ton dually pickup vs. police cruiser? I dunno, I doubt the physics of ramming him off the road.

      • Swarf

        Red dirt don’t care much.

        • Sunshine_Shooter

          Physics cares. Physics always cares.

          • PersonCommenting

            Would a california stop of done anything? Or would the dully still be two heavy and recover easily from its back end being nudged in one direction.

          • Major Tom

            Considering big ol’ 18 wheelers with loaded trailers are knocked onto their sides by running over a 2 door speck of a compact car, the physics suggest any collision with lateral movement would cause the truck to go into the ditch.

          • Sunshine_Shooter

            What do you mean by “California stop”? I’ve only ever heard that term used to describe someone rolling through a stop sign.

          • PersonCommenting

            I heard it a few times by officers in a couple documentaries. The pit maneuver is another name Ive heard. Its where the officer takes their vehicles front end and nudges the vehicle of the suspect in the back end hoping to induce a spin and the suspect to lose speed and control.

          • Sunshine_Shooter

            I think that move would be hard to do (car vs dually truck) on pavement. On a gravel/dirt road, the car wouldn’t get enough traction to even begin to move the truck, much less make it fishtail.

          • PersonCommenting

            Well this guy looked like he was in an SUV. Still lighter than a dully.

    • Rick O’Shay

      This wasn’t “shoot first and hope for the best.” A lot led up to this… all they’re showing is how it ended.

    • Chris

      Yes, put a pickup truck, with potentially better off-road capabilities off the road…wait what? How about they killed the bad guy without getting shot themselves or endangering civilians, so don’t criticize their methods?

      • FarmerB

        Generally, trucks are notoriously badly balanced – most of the weight is up front, and have a high centre of gravity. Not sure how this affects a PIT maneuver but don’t assume that a truck is more stable on a dirt road than a sedan. It has other capabilities that might help it off-road (clearance for example) but balance and stability isn’t one of them.

        • Francisco Machado

          Forward weight bias is more controllable than rearward weight bias because the wheels you can steer have more traction than the ones you can’t. That doesn’t mean it corners faster (it won’t), just that, at its limit of adhesion, it is more controllable. Braking is a different matter: Empty pickups lock the rear brakes very easily, so many if not all now have anti-lock rear brakes.

          • FarmerB

            That’s only true up to a point, as anybody whose driven a lot of miles on dirt roads (or snow) can attest.

      • Nocternus

        I wouldn’t say that he didn’t endanger civilians. He put 60 rounds down range at night from a moving vehicle at another moving vehicle while traveling at high speed down a dirt road, while operating that vehicle with one hand and operating a rifle with one hand. While engaging the bad guy in a rural area was preferable to engaging him in an urban environment. It seems like a lot of risk of secondary unintended targets with a rifle that can travel a long ways.

        • iksnilol

          Is it really a problem to drive with one hand on a straightway ?

          • Nocternus

            On a dirt road while engaged in a high speed pursuit. Yeah I would say you should have both hands on the wheel.

          • iksnilol

            Wow.

            Drivers ed has really taken a hike in the US it seems. Y’know, I dare say driving automatics and driving primarily on highways make you guys over the pond crappy drivers.

          • Ebby123

            “I would say..”
            That’s the problem – what you ‘would say’ counts for precisely squat.

            Agencies don’t come to Nocternus for “what he would say” is the appropriate training curriculum.
            SpecOps don’t check with Nocternus for “what he would say” before they train thier soldeirs.

            You have an opinion. Great!
            Stop trying to represent it as a fact.

          • Nocternus

            Your right it is my opinion. My opinion is also based on my 20+ years in law enforcement and security. As well as the time I spent on my agencies Special Operations team. So while it is only an opinion it is a fairly educated opinion.

          • Ebby123

            Not really… Law enforcement officers are as diverse as gun owners. Your Dept’s training is only representative of YOUR DEPT’S TRAINING – not all of law enforcement.

            Again, your experienced opinion is trumped by his demonstrated reality.

        • Ebby123

          As opposed to… engaging Tractor Beams? Using harsh language?

          He got the job done. Results are the only measure of success.

          • Nocternus

            Results aren’t the only measure of success when your job is to protect the public. You must weigh all decisions based on their possible outcomes. There is a reason no one trains officers to do what this officer did. You must not put the public in greater danger in order to stop a threat. It is why high speed chases get called off. It isn’t worth the risk to civilians to remove the threat. Worked out this time because this guy got lucky not because of his awesome performance of his duties.

          • bgav

            You still don’t get that the greater danger was to let the suspect continue into a more populated area? The officers did weigh the threat and determined that using this tactic in a remote location posed a lesser threat to the public. According OKHP Chief Adams in the press conference, the tactical officer was trained in this tactic and it was within policy, and this was a plan that was put in place for a scenario just like this.

          • Nocternus

            I have worked in law enforcement before. The truth of the matter is whatever lie they come up with between the time of the incident and the news release. No one trains their officers to fire from inside their patrol cars, one handed, while engaged in a high speed pursuit, at night, on a dirt road, under stress, through the front windshield of their patrol vehicles. How would you guess they would train for this specific scenario. When I did special operations with my agency we simulated stress through physical exercise. We also trained for night shooting. Do you honestly believe they took a patrol car and officers took turns shooting the windshield out of it on the range. Right after running two miles. Hop in the cruiser get it up to 65 mph then shoot a target attached to another vehicle in front of you. Seems legit right.

          • Ebby123

            “No one trains their officers..”
            At this point this is no longer a mistake, and is now an open lie.

            You have neither the data, the resume, nor the subject matter expertise to make a statement like that. SO STOP.

          • Nocternus

            I base my statements on a 20+ year law enforcement and security background including time spent on my agencies special operation team. I am not sure what about that makes you feel I “have neither the data, the resume, nor the subject matter expertise to make a statement like that.” Honestly how would you train your officers for this scenario?

          • Ebby123

            So in other words, exactly what I said – you have neither the data, the resume, or the subject matter expertise to make a statement like that.

            Just stop dude..

          • Ebby123

            Wrong. Simply wrong.
            YOU weren’t trained to do what this man did, so now you fabricate a fictional “Everyone” that you supposedly represent. You’re trying represent your opinion as a scientifically proven fact, when it is anything but.

            Like I said. I’ve done it. I’ve been trained in it. That alone puts the lie to you “No one” claim.

          • Nocternus

            No where in that statement did I use the term “Everyone” so you seem to be the one that pulled that out of thin air. If you were trained in this tactic perhaps you can explain how that training took place. Did they replace the windshield in the cruiser between each person firing? Who drove the car with the target attached to the back of it? Did they simulate stress prior to you climbing behind the wheel? I am sure I am not the only one interested in how exactly this training occurred.

          • Ebby123

            You have repeatedly claimed “NO ONE trains like this”, by which you claim to have exhaustive knowledge of all law enforcement training across the entire country, past, present, and future.

            Like all small minded people – you assume everyone is just like you. All departments are just like your department, all organization have the same risk evaluation process as your organization.

            Just stop.

    • nadnerbus

      The guy had already shot civilians and police. He was refusing to surrender. He forfeit his right to be taken into custody.

      Use deadly force, expect it to be reciprocated.

    • Tassiebush

      The physics relating to car size probably wouldn’t have enabled it. I had a sedan ram into the back of me a while ago in my 4×4 and the sedan driver slamed their foot on the accelerator. I was able to control my vehicle throughout it all.

      • iksnilol

        That’s when the Mac-10 by the seats came in handy for you?

        You made them prove that your Land Cruiser Jeep was bulletproof.

        • Tassiebush

          No I actually just waited for the poor old fella to realise what pedal he’d put his foot on and after the pushing had stopped I checked he was okay before swapping details. Poor guy was very upset.
          He was much nicer than you. He wasn’t the sort of evil Canute who’d taunt me like that with wilful vehicular misidentication!

    • Ebby123

      Close ground on a determined multiple murder armed with a long gun capable of perforating my vehicle? No thanks. I don’t owe him a fair fight.

  • thedonn007

    Is this something that they teach at the academy?

    • Bill

      No.

      Nor will they.

      I’ll add this to my list of really questionable things that ended up far better than they could have.

      • Joseph Goins

        Horrible tactics. He filled up his compartment with gun smoke which could have impaired his ability to stay on the road.

        • TheNotoriousIUD

          Not to mention glass bits flying everywhere.

          • Joseph Goins

            Glass particles are do-able.

          • BearSlayer338

            Yeah up until the point that they are in your eyes.

          • iksnilol

            Safety glass, point is moot.

          • Mystick

            Safety glass still produces airborne particles, just less big ones. Especially as a result of high-velocity impacts.

          • Swarf

            Not just tiny particles, lots and lots of tiny particles. Or rather needle thick bits of glass about an 1/8″ to a 1/4″ long.

            These little needles come from the glass shattering in to little cubes instead of giant, limb and head severing shards. That’s why windshield glass is “safe”, not because you can sprinkle it on your cereal or put your kid down for a nap on a pile of it.

        • JustAHologram

          And tinnitus

        • Chris

          Yup, obviously didn’t work at all.

          • Joseph Goins

            Pay attention, dingbat. That isn’t what I said. “Horrible” is not synonymous with “workable.” (Plus, he didn’t need to shoot then.)

          • Joseph Goins

            If he needed to shoot, he should have pulled over and put his scope to use at more than 1x.

          • Harry’s Holsters

            Lets just assume the vehicles were going 55MPH. Likely much faster. That’s 26 yards a second. My guess is 10 seconds to stop and get the gun in action. That’s closing on 300 yards before the officer can even get a shot off.

          • FarmerB

            Yeah, that doesn’t work. Amazing how quickly things get far away whilst you’re getting into action (even fleeing critters)

          • Harry’s Holsters

            That’s a great point anyone who has hunted doves know the challenge of hitting a fleeing target.

          • Joseph Goins

            Congrats. That gun can put the rounds well over 600 meters.

          • iksnilol

            How do you know the target woulda been visible at that distance ?

            It was dark IIRC.

          • Joseph Goins

            Possible, but irrelevant. If they couldn’t see each other, a reasonable officer would not have sensed an imminent need to use deadly force against the suspect and would not have fired his weapon.

          • iksnilol

            It’s irrelevant whether you see your target?

            I’mma need some of that kush you smoking, bruh.

          • Joseph Goins

            That’s not what I said. I said it was possible that he may not have seen his target anymore (in which case he shouldn’t shoot) but that the point is irrelevant because the officer shouldn’t have been shooting if he backed off. A reasonable officer would have a tough time making the case that he was in fear of his life in court at a long distance like that.

          • Ebby123

            He’s not shooting because he’s in fear for his life you dolt, he’s shooting because a multiple murder is trying to flee and continue his shooting spree.

          • Joseph Goins

            I didn’t deny that could be a rationale of the officer, but that is a bad one would not likely pass the “reasonable officer” standard as it became moot when there was no one around the guy who could have been endangered. The only remaining arguments are that the police were afraid for their own safety (not a sound argument as I noted above) and that they tried to make a 4th Amendment seizure (debatable but workable). This goes back to what I said about it reeking of “horrible tactics.” That doesn’t just apply to the officer.

          • Harry’s Holsters

            Yes it can in an ideal call of duty world world. So now you’re aiming at a target 300-800 in what appears to be the dark that’s doing 60MPH or even at 35MPH it’s a hard shot. At these distances you have to account for wind, elevation, grounding the rifle, respiratory pause and other factors as the car is getting even further away.

            I know my local PDs training only goes out to 75 yards. If the OHP trains out to 200 they be way ahead of most LE entities. Unless this guy took DMR class or shooter Precision rifle matches the chances of him having the skills to do this are slim. What you’re describing would be a difficult shot for someone like Travis Haley who’s job is to shoot and know everything about it.

          • Joseph Goins

            “Yes it can in an ideal call of duty world world”

            I take it you have no real world experience shooting at the Taliban in Afghanistan like some folks (myself included)? I never thought of us as TF101, but we got the job done at distance.

            So now you’re aiming at a target 300-800 in what appears to be the dark that’s doing 60MPH or even at 35MPH it’s a hard shot. At these distances you have to account for wind, elevation, grounding the rifle, respiratory pause and other factors as the car is getting even further away.

            You glanced over the most important part of what I said: “if he needed to shoot…” No reasonable officer could make a case that someone “300-800” away is a credible threat to his safety that justifies the use of deadly force. (To the best of my recollection, there was no one else around the suspect that was endanger at the time of the shooting which negates any claim of third party defense.)

            “I know my local PDs training only goes out to 75 yards. If the OHP trains out to 200 they be way ahead of most LE entities.”

            Argumentum ad populum, eh? What most agencies train for isn’t relevant.

            “Unless this guy took DMR class or shooter Precision rifle matches the chances of him having the skills to do this are slim.”

            Probably, which is why I said it was a bad tactical decision to shoot at all.

            “What you’re describing would be a difficult shot for someone like Travis Haley who’s job is to shoot and know everything about it.”

            Hard shot, especially against a moving vehicle, but not as impossible as you make it sound.

          • Ebby123
          • Joseph Goins

            Now that’s funny!

          • Harry’s Holsters

            First off thank you for your service.

            I don’t have military or LE experience but I also know there is also a big difference between a LE officer making a once in a career shot being the only officer at the incident and a military force fighting in a warzone.

            The reason he took the shot was to prevent the suspect from getting to an area where he could do harm to others, thus containing the situation. All either of us can do at this point is Monday morning quarterback this.

            He wasn’t shooting at a guy who beat up his his girlfriend he was shooting at someone who killed two officers and did harm to multiple other people. This could have been the best chance to stop him before he harmed more people. I also saw people saying that the pursuit chopper was low on fuel and they were afraid they could lose the guy. In this situation if you absolutely had to stop the threat there probably isn’t anything that you could do better.

            When tasked to shop the guy the officer appears to have done the most and best with the options he had available.

          • Joseph Goins

            There is a difference between being a Monday morning quarterback and trying to achieve lessons learned for the future. Shooting inside of a moving patrol car will likely not work 19 of 20 times; that is why I’m saying he should have pulled over first.

          • Harry’s Holsters

            There is still that 1 time out of 20 and it appeared it was the best solution for this situation.

            This comments section is full of comments stating how this officer was in a unique environment and that made this possible.

          • iksnilol

            HOW CRAPPY DRIVERS ARE YOU GUYS!? I MEAN, IT’S A STRAIGHT AND YOU’RE UP CLOSE WITH CONTROLLABLE FA?

            Good God y’all.

          • iksnilol

            Not to his safety maybe, but what about other peoples safety?

            You let a potential spree shooter go because he isnt’ shooting at you personally?

          • Joseph Goins

            According to my understanding of the event, there was no one else around the suspect. The shooting happened on a street in the middle of the long, empty western roads. If he were in a populated area, it would be an entirely different story.

          • FarmerB

            Yeah, I’m with you, I shoot an M4 equivalent carbine at 600m quite frequently. It can be effective for sure – although you ideally need a spotter. But if you’d ever spent much time on dirt roads you know that dust is a serious problem for your visibility – and lighting makes it worse (like fog). If you’re lucky you might see the tail lights for the first couple of hundred meters. Second problem is that 5.56 is a puny round against a vehicle, and at 600m laughingly so. Third problem is the truck is moving away quite quickly, so estimating range and holdover is pretty much impossible. In daylight with a spotter, you could probably lob rounds in there (if you could see the impact – again, visibility is a problem), but night at unknown and increasing distance – nah. And lastly, by the time you pull over, get a position, engage, then rejoin the chase, the truck is over 1/2 mile away somewhere in a dust cloud. You’ve really given the dude a tactical advantage.

          • Harry’s Holsters

            I didn’t even think about the dust and visibility from that aspect. Also by the time you see your hit your target is them another 100 meters away by the time readjust and send another round and then you have to wait for the round to travel.

            I remember one of the points the guy made was that the gases from the gun could disable the shooter from driving effectively and making him stop. Worse case scenario he could stop and go for the 1 in million shot on the car.

          • Ebby123

            Wow.. you are so, so wrong. Just stop.

          • Ebby123
          • Joseph Goins

            Play Call of Duty? No. I was too busy with three deployments overseas (1/75th), getting my bachelor’s degree, four more deployments overseas (95thCA), getting my master’s degree, my doctorate degree, and working like a slave to provide for my own well being so I didn’t have to rely on my pension that I honestly thought was going to be diminished greatly under Obama.

        • iksnilol

          Like, I am not a leet gunman. But how crappy are the drivers here? I mean “gunsmoke” obstructing you? Seriously?

          • Joseph Goins

            Did you watch the video? (And have you not smoked a little something something while driving with the windows up when you were much younger?)

          • iksnilol

            I don’t smoke. But I did drive with a halfway frozen up windshield this morning. Something which I believe is more obstructive. And I don’t really drive on straightways so I think that as well makes it more challenging.

          • Joseph Goins

            Live life on the wild side.

          • iksnilol

            No way I’m wasting my health or money on smoking.

          • Joseph Goins

            Now that Obama’scare is about to go away, I think many people will do the same.

  • Bill

    If it looks stupid and works, it isn’t stupid.

    Most of the time.

    • TVOrZ6dw

      Or that one time it worked…

      • PersonCommenting

        All it takes is one time. Luckily it worked and there was no oncoming traffic. Thank goodness for that. All the same it sounds like the OHP Officer is well trained and weighed the risks.

        • Wyatt Earp

          Then went right ahead and did something really stupid. This guy was lucky, not skilled.

          • Ebby123

            “Lucky” is most often a label that those without who cannot do something apply to those who can.

            I’ve done it. Personally fired from that position. Its quite stable, and the target is quite large.

          • Wyatt Earp

            I take your statement to mean you’ve personally discharged a M4, with the fore-stock laying on the dashboard of a car being driven, in pursuit of another car, on an unpaved road, hitting a target the size of a man. And you can duplicate your shot. (If that’s what you mean, how come this guy’s in the press for doing it and nobody has ever heard of you?)

            I will take it out of the “lucky” category and put it in the “skilled” category when more than one person can consistently duplicate the shot under the same circumstances. Until this happens, it stays squarely in the category of “luck.”

            I could not duplicate this shot, which means for me, it would be pure luck. I would actually have to wait for Newton’s 3rd law of motion to be eliminated before I could even try. (Equal and opposite reaction.)

          • Jay

            The road was unpaved? I’m pretty sure it was a state highway. Regardless, he was scoring regular hits on the suspect’s vehicle, if you correlate this with the helicopter video.

          • throwedoff

            He blew through a road block on the unpaved section of the road onto a paved county road. You can see the difference in the road composition in the overhead view as well as the lack of dust after they pass the road block.

          • Ebby123

            No thanks, if I wanted to spend my life trying to appeal to arbitrary subjective standards created for the sake of winning an argument, I’d have been an art major.

            The harder you try to justify your opinion, the more you reveal your ignorance and inexperience with the topic.

            Stop feeling, and be humble enough to admit that some people are good at things you’ve never even heard of.

          • Bill

            Not necessarily. If he had a good sight picture, then it wasn’t luck. Aerial gunners used to do it all the time.

    • Joshua

      Maxim 43:
      If it’s stupid and it works, it’s still stupid and you were lucky.

      • Sunshine_Shooter

        “looks”, not “is”.

      • milesfortis

        Hail another fan of Tagon’s merry band of cutthroats!

      • Billy Jack

        Maxim 43- paragraph B:
        If you think a working solution is stupid and have no better alternative you’re the only thing that’s stupid.

  • GPSrulz

    Well he’s going to be filing for hearing loss disability.

    • Squirreltakular

      Worth it. Tinnitus is manageable.

      • Hoplopfheil

        I’m not managing it all that well. 🙂

      • Mystick

        Yeah, it only partially wrecks your life. Lack of sleep, poor situational awareness, chronic headaches, random numbness. Yeah. Manageable.

        • Squirreltakular

          That sounds like something significantly worse than what you’d get from this.

          • Mystick

            Tinnitus.

        • iksnilol

          I just occasionally lose my balance and say what more often than I should.

          The droning in the background… it’s just background noise now. Does bother me some late nights that I will never hear silence again… and of course that I don’t remember what silence sounds like anymore,

      • Herp

        I love my tinnitus.

        When my wife is lambasting me over something insignificant, I just hold onto that clarion tone.

        Riiiiiiiiiiiiiing.

        It’s soothing. It’s safe.

  • Joseph Goins

    I guess those VTAC courses paid off.

  • 11b

    “Hold my beer…”

    • Billy Jack

      If that guy had one in his hand before that it would be frozen solid. He was ice cold.

  • TexianPatriot

    Just giving that truck a good tap on that dirt road should have ended this chase.

    • Rick O’Shay

      Except it looks like they’d already tried something like that judging from all the sparks flying off the truck, and the stuff falling off. Plus with the suspect shooting back, I’m not sure the trooper necessarily wanted to get closer and make a better target of himself.

      • Anonymoose

        There was a chain attached to truck, dragging on the ground.

    • iksnilol

      Getting close to somebody that’s shooting at you? No way darlin’, I don’t know how much cops are paid but they ain’t paid that well.

      • Ebby123

        ^^^LOL! This.
        Someone above was whining about how it ended – “They should’ve gotten closer and assessed instead of just shooting him!”

        Yeah… cross open ground in a straight line to approach an heavily armed, highly determined murderer who’s got nothing to lose. Let me know how that works out for you.

  • TheNotoriousIUD

    Seems crazy as sh-t to me but the guy did just shoot a bunch of people.
    Still seems like he could have PIT maneuvered him.

    • Duray

      While taking rounds. Yeah you go first.

      • Twilight sparkle

        And he had a big truck as opposed to a little trooper car, seems like a pit maneuver would have backfired to me.

      • Ebby123

        ..From a rifle

  • Wolfgar

    If I was pursuing him I would have preferred a rocket launcher. Doing a pit maneuver while the subject is shooting doesn’t sound like a wise idea. He got the job done, and deserves our thanks. These cops earn their money!

  • Swarf

    No wonder there’s an ammo shortage.

    “Okay, he’s on the ground, immobile.”

    “But we’ve got all these bullets! And adrenaline! Better pump 6 or 700 more in to the corpse.”

    “Okay, well, there are other cops coming down the road towards our fire, so let’s lay off, okay?”

    “The K-9 units like hamburger!”

    • PersonCommenting

      Contagious fire. Remember the boston bomber who holed up in a boat for 3 hours. They literally shot hundreds of rounds at the guy.

      • Ebby123

        And why not? (assuming you know your backstop).

        Ammo is cheap. Your life is not.

        • PersonCommenting

          If they are shooting just to shoot Idk. In this case I am fine with it. There was nothing to hit behind the guy. Boston bombing on the other hand was in a developed area. Houses around. If one guy makes a mistake it could cost some innocent person their life.

          • Ebby123

            ^^This is a crucial distinction.

        • Nocternus

          So now all of a sudden knowing your backstop is important?

    • Hoplopfheil

      They hit him with a full auto burst, then dumped the contents of their chest rigs out around him. I’d like to see a report about how many actually hit.

      Even the helicopter guy was like “okay y’all need to stop shooting.”

      • Ebby123

        Remember this was at night, shooting at a prone target while lights and sirens flash in your face.

        They shot enough to make sure the job was done. As soon as the chopper guy with the IR camera confirmed it, they stopped firing.

    • Ebby123

      Yeah… cross open ground in a straight line to approach an heavily armed, highly determined murderer who’s got nothing to lose… Oh and do it while backlit by headlights and sirens.

      Let me know how that works out for you.

      Nope. He lost his right to be taken alive when he left the vehicle with a rifle in hand.
      You only get so many chances..

      • Swarf

        Where did I say anything about taking him alive? Or crossing ground? Or even not shooting him when he was on the ground? Or any of that other crap?

        I think your spurs are on a little tight.

  • herf

    This was very risky , First did the officer know if someone else was in the vehicle ? At that speed could he account shot placement and not putting rounds into someone house or an oncoming vehicle ? I know they need to do what they need to do but this could have gone very bad he just got lucky it didn’t

    • Sunshine_Shooter

      I grew up where this happened. I doubt there was even a house within 5 miles of where they were, much less in the bullets’ path. Add the time of night into the equation and they are unlikely to see anyone for hours. This might be the best scenario for the tactics seen to actually be employed.

    • PersonCommenting

      They were the only ones on the road and the OHP officer knew that.

  • Chris

    I wish there was a comment filter where only people who have personally been shot at could post. Until then, I guess we get to hear how everyone would have done it better.

    • PersonCommenting

      I dont think there is any harm in talking about it. As long as you preface it with this guy was obviously effective in what he was trying to do and was well trained. He knew the risks and preformed exceptionally.

      • Wyatt Earp

        I’ve been shot at twice in LOD.

        This guy was not “obviously effective,” he was obviously extremely lucky.

        Just because you got an outcome all your cop buddies and cop apologists think is great does not make it ‘safe.’

        I find it really hard to imagine how you would even do this in IRL. You can’t control the direction the barrel moves, even if you laid the barrel on the dashboard or other part of the car. There is no question that he couldn’t have done it safely.

        This is like the guy who, while holding onto a horse, shot a ‘subject’ several hundred feet away with a handgun. Pure luck.

        • DC

          He had a point to support the rifle (the dash), safe backstop and was clearly able to put effective rounds on target.

          I see shooting from a car while driving being quite doable if traveling in a straight line.

          • Wyatt Earp

            Please try this. There is no such thing as a flat road without any defects. There is no such thing as shocks that absorb every irregularity. In other words, all parts of the car are moving all the time. Which means the path of the projectile is completely unpredictable.

            I can’t think of a safe way to demonstrate how impossible this scenario would be to duplicate.

          • Ebby123

            I have tried it, personally. Its quite stable.
            Unlike the human body, a car is not very flexible. If you rest the forearm in a crotch on the dashboard, it is quite easy to keep rounds on a vehicle-sized target.

          • PersonCommenting

            Military shoots from vehicles all the time. Granted the person shooting isnt usually driving at the same time. I dont think it is that big of a deal. The officer made a judgment call and it worked.

          • Hanzo

            Jealous? Methinks thou protests too much.

        • iksnilol

          You’re driving on a straight, gunning with a rifle at a target that can be best described as bigger than the trunk on your ex. It’s… it’s a relatively safe target in a rural area.

          • Tassiebush

            And a chopper has a view of any likely pedestrians or other cars and could be relied on to let you know about them.

          • iksnilol

            That as well, didn’t even think about the chopper.

            But yeah, not to disparage the officer who did this or anything but it wasn’t so hard as to do as people make it out to be.

          • Tassiebush

            It’s not disparaging really given that we’re asserting it was reasonable to give it a go. I think the location, the target behaviour and the support of the chopper all made this viable. Remove any one of those and it probably wouldn’t have worked.

          • iksnilol

            Would be fun to try a simulation of this on a mountain road. Would probably need to control your fire much mroe then.

            But yeah, as is it was pretty safe IMO.

        • PersonCommenting

          I dont know about pure luck but definitely luck involved.

        • Chris

          Perhaps you didn’t notice the rounds impacting the rear window of the suspect’s truck. Looked like pretty effective fire to me.

        • Nocternus

          Once while hunting I shot two bobcats. Both with a sub compact .40 cal. Second one was traveling left to right about 75 yards out. First shot was skill second one was total luck. Friends thought I was a bad ass at the time though. Kinda like this situation except I didn’t kill those bobcats at night one handed while engaged in a high speed chase while simultaneously operating a patrol vehicle at high speed on a dirt road. So I guess just the lucky part was similar. My bad.

    • Nocternus

      I have been shot at, and this was incredibly reckless by this trooper. I understand the need to get this dangerous criminal off the street but you also have a duty to not put the public in harms way. The 59 bullets that didn’t find their mark all have to go somewhere. When I worked in law enforcement it was impressed upon me heavily that you should be able to tell Internal Affairs where every bullet went that you fired so that they can be recovered. Pretty hard to do while engaged in a high speed chase in the middle of the night while operating your vehicle with one hand and an AR15 with the other. IMO risk outweighed the reward and he got incredibly lucky there were no secondary unintended targets.

      • bgav

        The responding officers know this area better than you, and it was remote and secluded which is a more ideal place to bring the pursuit to an end that allowing the suspect to drive back into a populated area.

        • Nocternus

          I am betting there were homes within range of that rifle. A 22lr can go over a mile. I would say with elevation a 5.56 can travel twice that. So unless it is so remote that there isn’t a home within two miles, coupled with the fact that it was dark outside. To me the risk of endangering the public is too great. Nice that it worked out for him. Seems like dumb luck though not bad assery.

          • BattleshipGrey

            The chase needed to end right now. For all we know the bad guy could’ve stopped at the next farm and killed the whole family or taken them hostage. What the officer did was not safe, but the bad guy was quadruply more dangerous and needed to be ended.

          • Wyatt Earp

            If he stopped at the next farm, then they could have waited until the guy stopped and got out of his car. Then get 1/3rd of the police department and shoot the guy 100+ times like they did in Cleveland or wherever. I mean, after all, that guy committed traffic violations and could have run over my kid. He deserved to die as much as this guy. HE COULD HAVE KILLED SOMEONE, THEREFORE HE MUST DIE. Along with anyone else in the general vicinity.

          • BattleshipGrey

            There’s a lot that can go wrong until the next farm house and there’s no guarantee you’ll be able to be right there when he jumps out of the car.

          • Wyatt Earp

            Sorry, I guess my sarcasm wasn’t obvious. (That’s a sincere apology. I was trying to be sarcastic.)

            What does “quadruply” mean? (Is that even a word? I guess it means 4x’s?)

          • BattleshipGrey

            I kind of caught the sarcasm but I guess I was just going after the basic logistics of scenarios. I just googled “quadruply” and it’s actually listed under quadruple as an adverb at dictionary(dot)com. Though at the time I wrote it I wasn’t completely sure it was an official word, but yes, worse than “doubly” (actually doubly worse than doubly). I did make up the word “mathing” earlier today on TFB :).

          • Nocternus

            So it is acceptable to rattle off two mags while operating a patrol car at high speed on a dirt road at night. But to wait until the guy stops at a farm house is putting the public in to much risk?

          • throwedoff

            The trooper wasn’t exactly “rattling” off two magazines. He was taking rapid aimed shots at a fleeing vehicle on a straight PAVED county road. Watching the video you can see that he is making hits on the pickup truck. How many hits did he make? We will probably never be told. Did he expose civilians to unnecessary risk? Google maps/satellite imagery indicates there was no undue risk. How would you feel if law enforcement decided not to take decisive action, and your farm was the next place that Vance decided to violently procure a vehicle?

          • Nocternus

            You can’t have it both ways. Either he was in the middle of nowhere, or there was a farm nearby. Is there a reason a roadblock couldn’t have been performed? I was always taught that you can’t outrun a radio. Also want to mention “He was taking rapid aimed shots” is cop talk for rattling off two mags. Just like “I used the minimum amount of force necessary to control the situation, while employing multiple softening techniques” is cop talk for whatever kind of butt whooping was just delivered.

          • Dan

            Rural area such as this you could rattle off a .50cal and not worry about hitting anywhere near someone. It was a risky move. The officers know the area. The helicopter crew was providing info on what was ahead. It paid off. Obviously you don’t want this to become standard practice or have some new officer think “hey i can do that too” i can see where you are coming from definitely. The officer made the call and thankfully he is not living with some unintended consequences.

          • Wyatt Earp

            I live in the middle of ~2 million acres of USFS land (including 900,000 acres of wilderness area.)

            I wouldn’t fire (is that the same as ‘rattle off’?) a 9mm pistol into it without knowing what I am aiming at. Around me, you don’t point your weapon at anything you don’t intend to shoot, which means you know what you’re aiming at.

            I think the USFS/BLM would be really upset if you started shooting up their trees with a cal. .50BMG.

          • Hanzo

            Please stop beclowning yourself.

          • Billy Jack

            Let him go on.

          • will_ford

            DRY UP YOU LOUT. No one was hurt,he was there YOU were not. STOP beating the poor dead horse! PLEASE

        • Jason Adams

          I couldn’t agree more well said!

      • Frank Grimes

        Exactly.

        It’s either poor training, poor tactics, bad decision, trying to show off for the camera, or a combination of all of those.

        Offer is a clown and should be forced to wear a red squeaky nose when on duty for the rest of his LE career.

        What was his hit ratio? Probably not very good.

        How many rounds did they fire after the scumbag was dead? Probably too many. Should’ve moved in and assessed the situation and neutralized the threat as needed, not hung back and rip off a mag with the happy switch engaged just so you can finally do something in your hick town.

        Officer is a menace to society.

        • Ebby123

          LOL! You are so wrong I don’t even know where to start.. I’ll just pick one as the rest are addressed elsewhere in this thread.

          “Should’ve moved in and assessed the situation!”

          Yeah… cross open ground in a straight line to approach an heavily armed, highly determined multiple-murderer who’s got nothing to lose… Oh and do it while you’re backlit by a bunch of headlights and flashers.

          Let me know how that works out for you.

          • Frank Grimes

            Well if his and the other officers happened to, on the off chance, have a hit ratio of even 10% then there should be no logical reason to hang back and keep shooting.

            Who takes 15-20 rounds of 5.56 and doesn’t die? Even if he’s not dead, what kind of proficiency does the threat posses after eating up nearly an entire magazine?

            Dominate, take ground, neutralize the threat.

            This is not hard.

            Of course neither is is 5 cops lining up emptying their rifles with no concern for the backstop, then having one guy rip off a mag in full auto.

            Then again I guess it’s hard to cross open ground while wearing big red floppy shoes which, based on their behavior, ALL the officers involved wear surely wearing.

            I’m assuming their rainbow afro wigs and squeaky noses fell off during the vehicle pursuit.

          • Ebby123

            Yawn… arbitrary opinion is arbitrary.

            He did it. Demonstrated reality trumps your feelings on what is the right thing to do.

            The more you talk, the more of your ignorance an inexperience you reveal. By all means, please continue.

          • Frank Grimes

            Andddd plenty of people point their muzzles into the air on New Years Eve and also do mag dumps and send rounds to god-knows-where.

            Just because they “did it” doesn’t make them smart, or brave, or competent, or anything but criminally negligent.

          • Ebby123

            LOL. Red Herring much?
            He did it responsibly and intentionally – and it produced good results. How does that in any way, shape or form bear resemblance to the illegal and pointless activity of celebratory gunfire into the air? Because guns?

            What this officer did was:
            -Legal
            -Done to prevent further loss of life.
            -In an extreme life-or-death situation with a determined killer.
            -Effective

            Celebratory Gunfire is:
            -Illegal
            -Pointless
            -Not effective
            -Not relevant to this discussion.

          • Ebby123

            Wow.. false equivalency much?

            This officer’s actions were:
            -Legal
            -In a life or death situation
            -A option of last resort
            -Effective

            Celebratory gunfire is:
            -illegal
            -Pointless
            -Not relevant to this discussion.

          • Frank Grimes

            One involves bullets flying all over the place and landing god-knows-where.

            The other involves bullets flying all over the place and landing god-knows-where.

            You’re right, totally different.

          • Ebby123

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ef53fc968b85b323151c51c1b06ec593e501dac04e62377ab1b3f425df4c60ff.jpg
            I’ll just go ahead and copy-paste this in the hopes that you’ll read it this time:

            This officer’s actions were:
            -Legal
            A calculated risk for which you were not present to make said calculations.
            -In a life or death situation
            -A option of last resort done to SAVE LIFE
            -Aimed fire
            -Effective

            Celebratory gunfire is:
            -illegal
            Pointlessly dangerous
            Un-Aimed fire
            -Not relevant to this discussion.

          • Frank Grimes

            Oh well in that case…

            One involves bullets flying all over the place and landing god-knows-where.

            The other involves bullets flying all over the place and landing god-knows-where.

            You’re right, totally different.

          • Ebby123

            Thank you for agreeing, your emotionally-charged, inaccurate summary of the situation notwithstanding.

          • Frank Grimes

            I absolutely did not agree.

            Though I guess I understand how someone like yourself who thinks spraying bullets all over the countryside with no concern for where they land is no big deal, would have reading comprehension issues.

          • Ebby123

            Lol. Keep up the hyperbole. That’s totally helping your case get respect for its rational, objective basis.

            That statement is exactly as accurate as “Black guns have pistol grips so murderers can spray bullets from the hip.”

            There is literally nothing in this article or video that supports the use of the word “spray” except for you desperation. Just stop.

          • Frank Grimes

            I don’t need respect when I’m right.

            And the difference between the statement similar to “pistol grips are for spray firing from the hip” and the cop in this video, is that one is simply a statement while the cop in this video is actually in the act of spraying bullets all over the place.

          • Ebby123

            Except that’s not what the video shows, at all.

            You SPECULATE that, because you want it to be true, but it is not shown.

          • Frank Grimes

            I’ll agree it’s not shown in the video during the parts when he’s not shooting.

            Officer Magdump has the fire discipline of Lon Horiuchi and the second he dropped the hammer like that should’ve been the second he no longer had a career in law enforcement.

            Realistically though, they should forensically account for each of his rounds and for each one not stopped by the badguy or the badguy’s vehicle, the officer should be sentenced to 24 hours in prison, in general population.

            If he has no problem putting other people’s lives in danger, he should have no problem putting his own in danger.

          • Ebby123

            So in other words – its bad because an anonymous stranger on the internet said so, even though he has no evidence to support that statment.

            Can you see why I’m being a little snarky now?

            If its your opinion, express it as your opinion.
            Don’t express your opinion as a dogmatic decree, especially with absolutely no concrete information to support that level of certainty.

          • Frank Grimes

            So saying its not safe to start randomly spraying bullets all over the countryside and putting all innocent life with 2 miles in serious danger is an “opinion” now?

            I can see why you’re ok with Officer Magdump’s despicable, dangerous, and irresponsible actions now, because you’re a delusional nutter.

          • Ebby123

            Here, let me break it down for you –

            “Fire” is not an opinion. “The officer fired his rifle” is an objective summary of what that video shows.

            “Randomly Spray all over the countryside” is an emotional, hyperbolic, and subjective opinion. It is also wholly unsupported by the evidence.

            Got it?

          • Frank Grimes

            So you have proof that all of his rounds stopped in (or even hit) what he was aiming at?

            You have proof that when he and his buddies were ripping off mags in full auto in a 3-5 man firing line (and the officers responding from down the road were asking them to stop shooting due to the severe lack of safety) that ALL of those rounds stopped in the badguy or his vehicle?

            This is simply a case of unqualified and bored small hick town cops going completely beyond any necessary and responsible use of force so they can look cool on their self-filiming cameras.

            Dumping mags off as fast as you can reload and sending bullets to land god-knows-where is something you would expect from a Snoop Dog hiphop drive-by shooting video, not allegedly “trained tactical officers” acting “responsibly”.

          • Ebby123

            Lol… live up to your own standards before you apply themy to others.

            Guilty until proven innocent because some guy on the Internet decided they were “spraying” is moronic.

            I’m not going to spend my time disproving your wild speculation – I’d rather stick to the facts that we actually know than play “what if” games.

          • Frank Grimes

            Well since you like to “stick to the facts” you should be really upset about the fact that this officer and his fellow clowns sprayed dozens of bullets all over with absolutely zero concern for where they landed.

          • Ebby123

            Lol. Ok we’re done here. I’ve already addressed that emotional, fact-less opinion several times.

          • Frank Grimes

            Your argument was dead the second he pulled the trigger.

            It was 6 feet down and encased in concrete when he selected full auto and did a mag dump.

            How can you be “done” if you weren’t even able to start?

          • Ebby123

            See above.

          • Frank Grimes

            See the video.

            Where the officer and his friends spray bullets all over the countryside, sometimes in full auto.

          • Ebby123

            Please point out the bullet impacts shown in the video.

            You can’t, can you. You can only SPECULATE, which is not the same thing as a FACT.

            Say it with me “Speculation is not the same things as a fact”.

          • Frank Grimes

            My point exactly.

            Where are the hits? Where did the bullets end up?

            Who knows when the MagDump PD is on the scene.

          • Ebby123

            Which means you cannot state AS FACT that they “SPRAYED” ANYWHERE.

            Thank you for confirming that you are SPECULATING, and do not have FACTS to support your position.

          • Frank Grimes

            No hits on target = bullets landed who-knows-where

          • Ebby123

            So were you part of the team that examined the “target” for bullet holes?
            No, you’re not. You’re STILL just talking out of your ass.

            In the absence of evidence, making up evidence is a lie, not a conclusion. Please learn the difference.

          • Frank Grimes

            If he hit his target, why did they fire so many magazines?

            What kind of super criminal were they after that sucks up dozens of rounds of 5.56 and from full auto and is still alive to pose a threat?

      • Ebby123

        That’s crap. Just because your policy was determined by a bunch of lawyers, doesn’t mean you are morally superior to the rest of us.

        It was a good shoot from a stable position, at a large, highly dangerous target in the middle of nowhere.

        I’ve personally fired from that position before. You drop the forearm in a crotch on the dashboard and you WILL get accurate hits.

        • Nocternus

          There is a reason no department literally anywhere trains officers for this type of shooting. It puts the public at greater risk. Guy got lucky there were no unintended secondary targets.

          • Ebby123

            According to your expert opinion?
            Please, tell us by what objective, data-based study are you determining that (A) No dept anywhere trains officers for this type of shooting, and (B) that it puts the public at a unacceptable greater risk.

            You wouldn’t be mis-representing your opinion as fact, would you?

      • Jason Adams

        Well it was not a good night for a walk along that rural highway but I think the officer did what needed doing. They stopped a potential murder of someone else by putting this guy down. If internal affairs wants to dog him for it then too bad for them. We don’t need vicious criminals left running lose by cops too afraid to act. We need to support are LEO’s when they are doing what we hired them for.

  • Vhyrus

    Not the first time this has happened. There was a similar incident in Albuquerque a few years back. There’s also video of that chase.

  • Swarf

    This is why cops should all be in those cute little self-driving cars.

  • Macchina

    This (and the previous murders) happened in an area with people I know. Michael Vance had not only killed 2 family members, but had shot cops for just trying to help him. The truck was stolen from an area farm and had a chain attached to the tailgate that was throwing sparks on the road. The officer who stopped him earlier just wanted to help him remove the chain to prevent brush fires, instead Michael Vance shot him as he approached and sped off. This was the mindset the officers were following the vehicle under. If he shot an officer trying to help what would he do to officers trying to take him down?

    • Tassiebush

      I even read about this piece of $hit in our news here in Tasmania. He was a nasty piece of work!

  • Christopher Wallace

    DEAF

  • Twilight sparkle

    Not sure if this is a good idea, I suppose with a good amount of training this is very doable but it should probably only be reserved for the most extreme cases like this

  • Critter

    Other than some real permanent hearing loss, that was pretty cool.

  • Audie Bakerson

    “BAMF or Crazy?”

    Why not both?

    • Gary Kirk

      CBAMF

      • Cymond

        came to say the same thing, and add that a bit of Crazy might be a prerequisite for BAMFs.

  • Anonymoose

    “He’s down!”
    “Shut up and keep shooting!”

    • Ebby123

      Lol! Yeah it looks bad after the fact, but there’s no way I’m crossing 100yds of open ground towards a proned out multiple-murder with a rifle unless I am 110% ABSO-F*N-LUTELY SURE he’s not capable of squeezing a trigger.

  • Harry’s Holsters

    Reminded me of that turkey shoot video with Travis Haley. This guy was calm. Not something you’d want to try in my area where interstate 40 or streets in town are the only straightaways but in rural oklahoma it looks like it worked.

    Earlier to shoot if you only have to worry about your vehicle moving straight forward.

    • iksnilol

      I don’t got experience with shootouts but I imagine it’s just… it’s just a process. Kinda like making a cup of tea, boil water, pour water, put teabag in, stirr. I imagine it’s simillar. You don’t think much of it.

      Like, I’ve been in a couple of near death situations (guy driving on wrong side of twisted mountain road coming up in my face in a turn). You just disconnect, do what your instinct or training tells you to… and then, just y’know, reconnect. Snap back to reality and all.

      There’s a possibility I am full of it, but that’s how I see it at least.

      • Harry’s Holsters

        I agree and it’s also different when the officer doesn’t have bullets come back at him. I’m still impressed with his composure.

  • Disarmed in CA

    “Ghost ride the whip”
    Nice shooting, officer.

    I SAID NICE SHOOTING!

  • bgav

    If you watched the press conference, the primary pursuit Trooper shooting through his windshield is a trained tactical officer. Can’t dispute his tactics when he was putting rounds on a moving target in a lethal encounter while driving, taking rounds, and communicating over the radio that he was engaging to warn other responding officers about crossfire. All with a homicide suspect who had already ambushed/shot other LE officers.

    The Trooper’s actions ultimately brought the pursuit to an end and forced the suspect out on foot where the suspect engaged the Trooper and other responding Troopers/officers while using the truck as cover and advancing on them. You can see the Trooper take good cover behind his patrol SUV using sound tactics, opened his rear hatch to keep his rear strobes from revealing his position or blind him, and he engaged and neutralized the threat while under fire when the opportunity presented itself. Shoot, move, communicate.

    PIT is not the right tactic for this scenario for reasons mentioned. The Trooper prevented the pursuit from continuing to a point where the the suspect approached innocent bystanders or other officers/roadblocks where the suspect could potentially engage or attempt to ram or run over other officers.

    Good guys 1, bad guy 0. I can’t understand how the armchair/internet critics are second guessing him.

  • Sunshine_Shooter

    Moral of the story: Don’t shoot at cops in Oklahoma, it always ends bad.

  • Arie Heath

    I’m going with BAMF on this one. That one was amazing skill right there.

  • DW

    Used to be horseback with leverguns at high noon, is now cars with AR15s at night.

  • USMC03Vet

    Dead scumbag?

    Officer could have been throwing tomahawks, don’t care. Buy him a beer.

  • Garmanarnar

    CLICKBAIT TRASH. TFB is going down hill fast.

  • DanGoodShot

    I would say that call is for the officer to make. If he has the confidence in his ability, then why not. Every individual is different. Every individual’s skill level is different. Who is it for anyone to say what that officers skill level is. Clearly, it’s pretty damn good. One question though, when did officers get full auto?? Cuz I swear I hearded a couple bursts of full auto when that guy went down.

  • Beardedrambler

    I feel like it took way too many shots.

    • Ebby123

      Try it sometime. Let me know if the real world aligns with your feelings.

  • Bal256

    Click baity title. Seemingly stupid action given the headline but then the circumstances were extraordinary and definitely warranted stopping this guy at all costs.

    I can’t help but feel if the critics of this guy either don’t read the story, or they are such armchair commandos they would criticize a soldier for charging into a machine gun nest alone if he had no options. Idiot? Or medal of Honor recipient? You decide!

    • Nocternus

      A better example would be a soldier that tosses a grenade into a school bus to take out a hostage taker. Hostage taker dead? Yep! Must have done a great job then right?

  • The_Champ

    Extreme circumstances absolutely warranted what this officer did. I can’t believe it’s even being debated.

    Can we talk about how calm this trooper is? I’ve got to guess combat veteran but I could be wrong.

  • Ed Forney

    His hearing took a big hit. Hope it returned to normal !

    • iksnilol

      Trust me, it won’t.

      • Ed Forney

        I do a lot of range practice. Being within 10 feet of someone firing a 5.56 without ear protection is almost painful. Can’t imagine what it was like inside a car.

        • iksnilol

          Well, I was close to someone who let an AR (maybe AK, didn’t get a good look, was little) rip. Was many years ago. No ear pro since it was outta the blue. Tinnitus ever since.

          It’s indescribable how loud it was.

          • Ed Forney

            I lost the hearing in my left ear when I was 16. Just heard a “pop” and completely lost my balance. My mother even had to hold me up when I went to the bathroom. Went to five “specialist”, and each had a different diagnosis. It wasn’t until I went in for my draft physical that it was found that I was nerve dead (they worked on me for two hours, even though I had already failed my physical for three other reasons). I’ve been VERY careful with my remaining good ear for 50+ years.

          • iksnilol

            Entire hearing in one ear just gone like that?

            Wow, I got lucky then.

          • Ed Forney

            Just heard a little pop, and that was it !

  • ozzallos .

    I see results. Everything else is backseat driving.

  • David Harmon

    What the odds on this guy being a Vet?

  • A Fascist Corgi

    I don’t have a problem with shooting at a homicidal madman like this (RIP to this cop’s eardrums), but my concern is with how many times they shot him after he was down. It’s easy to criticize from the sidelines, but to me it seems like a lot of the police officers in this country are overly skittish. They’re faced with an armed and deadly threat and they too often respond by going crazy on the trigger. If the guy is down you might want to put a few more into him in order to make sure that he isn’t playing possum, but they must have shot him at least 200 times after he was already down. A properly trained cop keeps a cool head and shows some restraint. I don’t think that special operations troops that have seen tons of combat would have kept shooting like these cops did. That’s because they know how to better manage their fear, anger, and adrenaline.

    • Tassiebush

      Shooting stuff by artificial light in darkness it can be hard to be confident of your hits. Especially if you aren’t using reasonable magnification and a spotlight. I don’t think I’d feel confident of a hit until I could see bits of him coming off.

  • Uniform223
  • iksnilol

    Perfectly sound decision. That’s why you practice shootin’ outta your car.

    But did his family members survive? I see you mentioned the cops survived but the family members he shot to begin with, what about them?

    • Tassiebush

      If it’s the one I read about he’d raped a young family member and murdered two more.

      • iksnilol

        That sucks… I can see why they went full auto on him.

  • Tassiebush

    I had the impression that he was resting the muzzle on the hole in the windshield which would go a fair way to supporting it coupled with shouldering it. Couple that with the fact he was on a straight road moving straight ahead and the target wasn’t zip zagging I reckon it was reasonably likely to achieve something worthwhile. The worst thing to happen would be that he’d miss but the chopper was giving feedback on the road situation so really apart from ammo wasted there’s nothing to lose.

  • fnu lnu

    Some of you are real armchair badasses. Is this arfcom?

  • Paul O.

    He definitely passed the man-check.

  • Ebby123

    Did you hit the bad guy and end the threat? YES.
    Did you hit any civilians or cause enormous collateral damage? NO.

    Then you’re a BAMF.

  • RSG

    That was beautiful. Period.

  • Iblis

    Congrats to all in stopping a murdering dirtbag. Unorthodox method? yes. It worked and no other innocents nearby to get hurt. I hope his hearing gets better.

  • claymore

    Great job Trooper.

  • Mystick

    I don’t see how this is possibly in-policy, and if it is, that policy really needs to be updated.

  • Jim N Jenna SK

    Lesson learned? Don’t shoot at cops. They will be pissed and send 400 rounds down range.

  • Bob

    GREAT JOB! I’m happy this officer went home safe. (the other two got KILLED by this scumbag)

  • Sulaco5

    If it works it goes into the book. Most police manuals have a section that says, “What ever means are nesessary at the time”…

  • Cap’n Mike

    BAMF

  • Billy Jack

    The highway patrol needs to go ahead and change his rank officially to BAMF.
    His boss said they train like that, for that. Why should I call him a liar?

  • Realist

    Maybe LEO vehicles ought to have some sort of port in the windshield…once Trooper BAMF’rs barrel was resting in the hole in the windshield, those 5.56 rounds were making the perp take notice.

    • jay

      Pop up M60’s in the left and right quarter panels. Belt fed, with 4k rounds. A bit James Bondish, but much more battle friendly! ;-} Then the cop car can have bullet proof glass, to protect our police.

      • iksnilol

        KAC Stoner’s with 500 rounds would be significantly lighter (and safer in regards to collateral). Thinking mounted up front under the lights. Suppressed of course.

        • jay

          With either set up, it not about collateral damage. Decreased weight is valuable. But if it’s necessary to pull the big guns, it’s only about getting the enemy out of the gene pool. Suppressed might be nice, wouldn’t last long though. ;-}

  • Pastafarian

    The most remarkable thing about this, to me: Shooting through the windshield. That is a very bold move.

    This officer must have known that it would work out well for him — he must have tried it before, I assume, in some sort of training. Otherwise, if I were him, I would have worried about the jacket fragmenting, and those fragments coming back and hitting me in my unprotected eyes. And I know windshields don’t shatter into shards like most glass, but when hit with a 3000fps round, I’m sure you’ll get some fragments flying off at random directions, that might matter at a distance of 24 inches or so.

    And then there’s the round itself — after punching through that glass, they must have just tumbled horribly. And he must have had to allow for an angled deflection.

    But it worked out for him — he scored hits despite the tumbling, and didn’t end up blinded. So good for him: Bold moves, but they paid off.

  • iksnilol

    Not really relevant to be honest, .338 can go past two kilometers but most folks can’t make that shot.

  • BeoBear

    That trooper did the right thing. These guys practice shooting through windshields (obviously not while driving) and all that other high speed low drag stuff. OHP troopers have always had a reputation of being a bit of a badass, which is often well earned. I worked as city police officer in OK for several years and as a firefighter/EMT there for ten years so I’ve had a lot of interaction with troopers, both business and personal.

    Michael Vance wasn’t your average bad guy nor was this your average situation. I live in the general area where he killed those folks. People all over this area were aware that Vance could be in the next town or next door hiding and the smart ones were prepared. Vance not only killed his own family members but tried to sever their heads, he was nuttier than a squirrel turd.

    Those county roads are broken up into one mile north/south/east/west grids. The roads are long, very dark, flat but with just enough hill to lose sight of the car in front of you pretty often and, for the most part, uninhabited. I’m almost positive where it happened the roads were paved. The trooper had the ideal environment to use his dash as a rifle rest and shoot while driving. Keep in mind that Vance was shooting at him the whole time and the trooper was also trying to compensate for Vance’s changing speeds so he didn’t get too close and get shot. The chopper was low on fuel and very close to having to leave the trooper on his own. There’s no doubt it had to end fast, without the chopper Vance had the opportunity to get away. After searching for him for several days already they couldn’t risk him getting away again.

    I don’t know if the OHP specifically trains to shoot out the windshield while driving but they train to shoot through windshield glass like many other departments do and it’s not much of a leap to go from a static shooting position to a dynamic one as this trooper did. He knew there were no other cars coming downrange towards him, he knew there were no civilians anywhere downrange and he knew he could safely and accurately engage with the bad guy. I’m not seeing what the big deal is? They are trained to fire through their windshields and understand what their bullets will do (which is to know that you never know what those first rounds through glass will do). Once the glass was broken and not obstructing his muzzle it was then your not so average gunfight from then on. Nothing unsafe, nothing stupid but instead absolutely warranted and the right thing to do.

    Tip of the hat to our Oklahoma Highway Patrol troopers for this one, that particular trooper kicked butt. There’s no doubt that had Vance gotten away that night he was intent on continuing his killing spree. That trooper was making phenomenal hits on target during that chase/gunfight, very impressive. Those troopers put their lives on the line to end the fight that Vance brought to central Oklahoma and deserve to be commended.

  • Random Disable Person

    First let me point out something,

    Can we finally admit that having one officer per car is dangerous to the officers? To the innocent civilians? Yes it allows more officers to cover more area but how much is that back up and officer safety worth? The experience of a senior and newer officer worth combined? The extra learning curve that you only get on the job, because reality throws enough strange stuff that fiction at the academy could never come up with and/or cover. How much more can the younger inexperienced learn? But a 2 cars with one officer each is cheaper than having two officers in one car and/or 4 officers in 2 cars. This chase illustrates the need for officers joining force in cars where one focuses on driving and threats from vehicle being chased, and the other on the radio, coordination, shoots where the other drives, especially if it had been a dense urban area.

    Screw the bean counters, lets go back to double up cruisers for the perks. How many resisting arrest injuries would be reduced? Budget savings right there. how many suspects that one gets away while the officer can only chase one?

    Yes there is a lot of times only one officer is needed but the times when two are needed (domestics can always go badly quickly where both turn on you), those seconds to minutes for back up matter. The extra tasks of operating the radio knowing/verifying location and direction, can cost a lot in wrecks, injuries, and other costs. Not to mention the divided attention reduced performance factor. Perhaps we need cars on each shift with 2 officers with better training for when things go side ways. Give the cost is worse for small rural areas, but they have far less of chance of having a mass convergence of officers from the surrounding divisions in a large city with more officers per shift per square mile.

    Now the Critique,

    From the video it look like he(The BAMF in question) had a scope, not a red dot and/or magnifier. Which made getting a sight picture a bit harder. On another video there is clear footage of an officer putting a gun through the windshield. Which gave it a better rest than on the dash over or right beside the steering wheel. There is plenty of video we haven’t been shown which can alter things greatly. Editing may also effect the review for what all can learn.

    While a method to test if he was still alive and/or a threat was needed , that sheer number of rounds was over the line. Especially the mag dump on Full Auto, that was an execution at that point. They could have used a vehicle for cover to approach if their tasers were out of range. All while having the ability to fire if needed. If he tried to get up after the first massive shooting, then the massive mag dumping would have had more justification. The end could have had less judge ,jury and executioner from the officers. it was clear they were finishing him off. Being left alive may have been a worst fate.

    Lots of things done right that failed to work, & lots of things done that are questionable.

    The sad part this officer is going to have to be cleared before he can return to duty even though I think we all agree that the risks and suspect required extreme measures. Plus he has to deal with all the mental effects of taking life. This guy will have his actions reviewed and intestines crawled through by I.A. most likely. All the while waiting behind a desk to find his out his true fate. The press has moved on, so no coverage to help keep attention on protecting & discipline those that were right and wrong. With a review and education for all involved and other departments to learn from . Meanwhile “Gecko45” laughs off any I.A. review for tactics, and would be fine to return to combat suppression by the skee ball machine from the afterburner playing terrorists the next day. between training sessions on Ikari Warriors

    Now where are all armchair folks going “why didn’t he kick out his windshield like they did in “Act of Valor” ? Why didn’t the spike strip guys fire a LAW rocket…… Seriously folks, if you’re going to armchair do it right.

    If it been NY, Chicago, California maybe the gangs could have done some of the shooting…

  • NeoBlackdog

    I’ll take BAMF for $500, Alex.

  • JRT6

    Obviously an extremely rare exception to one of the most valid prohibitions in use of force. The road was empty and the risk was as low a it whittle ever get. I hope the officer isn’t going to have to deal with substantial hearing damage.

  • Dave

    I can’t imagine better circumstances under which to try this. Seemed very justifiable, defensible, and well-executed. I’ll bet the officer wasn’t even anticipating the reaction of internet scolders at the time.

  • D.R. Brown

    100% BAMF

  • Whitney Philbrick

    I try to follow the philosophy that you trust the man on the ground until proven untrustworthy by reliable means.
    As far as I can tell this was handled in as safe a manner as possible under the situation and done calmly while communicating with fellow officers to reduce risk of friendly fire.
    I’m a good shot and a good driver but I seriously doubt I could pull this off without instruction and practice, and then I’d still be unsure….
    Kudos to this officer, IMHO

  • Jason Adams

    Good to see the bad guy go down but I sure don’t want to go hunting with these cops…LOL After close to 200 or 300 rounds fired at the bad guy after he is down and not moving they will need a fork lift to load the body with all the lead in him unless they are missing him.

  • CT

    This is satire correct?

  • Nocternus

    This is a prime example of a department making the facts fit their argument. Let me make this clear. I don’t believe for a second that this is part of their training regimen or somewhere is authorized by department policy. They have decided their officers actions are justified and are now covering his butt.

  • Nocternus

    I see training taking place firing from a stationary vehicle during daylight hours. I do not believe the training from this video would prepare you to fire from a moving vehicle at night under stress. I don’t believe for a second that this agency has policies in place encouraging their troopers to take this kind of risk. They have decided to cover their employees butt and are making the policy fit the actions. If you have ever worked a day in law enforcement you have seen similar things take place. The truth is often whatever the officers come up with between the time of the incident and the time of the court date. If this were to be called into question I would bet that this department would not be able to show policy and training documentation that reflects this troopers actions were covered by both.

  • We trained for this unlikely scenario. Daytime yes now and then but mostly at night from an old retired unit with the lightbar and siren going. The car had the windshield removed as well as the side windows.

    • Nocternus

      From a stationary vehicle I assume. I also assume you weren’t driving the vehicle while firing at night on another moving target. I can’t envision a way to train for this scenario safely. If you can’t train for this scenario safely where you can control the circumstances then why would a department authorize this tactic in the wild where you can’t control the circumstances?

  • Nocternus

    Yep it was an even worse idea in Albuquerque in the middle of town. Regardless of if it has happened 2 times or 10 times departments set policy to mitigate liability not to encourage officers to behave recklessly. I also notice that the Sig Academy footage you link shows the passenger firing. That is a big departure from operating a patrol vehicle at night on a dirt road in a high speed chase with one hand while using a scope and operating your AR15 with the other. Training to fire from the passenger seat, coupled with training to fire from a stationary vehicle, coupled with night shooting training, coupled with EVOC training does not equal being proficient doing all at the same time.