Shaitan sent us this photo from Defense Forum Indian. He wrote “Indian MCIWS rifle in its latest avatar with a new type of stock .It is still being developed.”

The Multi Caliber Individual Weapon System (MCIWS) has been a development since at least 2013. It is supposed to start military trials this month. It can be chambered inย 5.56mm, 6.8 Remington SPC and 7.62x39mm.The receiver is Aluminum not polymer like so many new assault rifles in recent years.


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  • Indian small arms development is like watching a bad soap opera romance. “Will they, won’t they…”

    • Ben Loong

      Not to mention the myriad of problems that wouldn’t exist if the characters had any common sense.

    • n0truscotsman

      Their entire defense procurement process is a bad soap opera. By what limited tidbits I’ve heard of personally, the amount of insurmountable bureaucratic horse crap never ceases to amaze me.

    • BrandonAKsALot

      Every photo of these demos looks like a bunch of undergrads and a few professors got lost and wandered into an arms expo too.

      • durabo

        Imbecile has his finger on the trigger. So much for controlling a demo!

    • Giolli Joker

      …without pretty actresses…

  • plumber576

    That rifle looks like the results when I eat Indian food and just as heavy.

  • Mike N.

    If that’s a 5.56 magazine, those guys are tiny.

  • They should just buy tavors and be done with it

    • Graham2

      They probably won’t buy anything in because of the expense- they’ll then spend ten times what they would have spent on developing a piece of crap they can call their own! They never learn!

    • DW

      They did, bought a small batch and copied it.
      Don’t know how well/badly the copy is though

    • Poool

      Being seen as a client of the joos, will not help them strike fear into the eyes of anyone.

  • USMC03Vet

    They really need to master indoor plumbing over there first.

    • Kyle

      Ha! Burn. You’d think they just do what about everyone else does and go either AR or AK and call it a day.

  • Asdf

    Nice photo bomb on a lean back stance.

  • mr whipple

    I’ve done some business in India and China. The thing that has become glaringly apparent to me over the years is both of their cultural satisfaction with pretense. Example: Objective A needs to be achieved. As long as the pretense of objective is achieved,, then it’s good enough. If objective A is legitimately achieved, then it is considered going way above and beyond, and there will be an inquest into whether or not resources were wasted.. This happens in business, but other things too, like their justice system. As long as something appears to have gone according to plan, then it’s as good or better than something legitimately going to plan.

    I think it may be the same with their arms industry. The pretense of a next-generation indigenous designed and manufactured rifle is constantly championed by the companies, politicians, and media involved. You will most likely never see a legitimately good next-generation indigenous designed and manufactured rifle from India because as long as it appears to be everything it should be, then that’s all that will ever be made.

    There is one Indian company that I’ve worked with that doesn’t tend to do the above, and maybe they do domestically, but certainly not internationally. And that is Tata consulting.

    • Jeremy Star

      I don’t know, I’ve dealt with Tata in the US and their employees are bungling morons here.

      • tts

        Dunno about Tata in the US but Mahindra guys seem OK for tractor support. Just slow to respond and ship parts. The farmers around here (Pacific North West US) seem to like them well enough for small stuff. Them and Kibota.

        • Miguel Raton

          Are you conflating “Kit & caboodle” with Kubota? Just curious… ๐Ÿ˜‰

    • Broz

      This happens in business, but other things too, like their justice
      system. As long as something appears to have gone according to plan,
      then it’s as good or better than something legitimately going to plan.

      Kinda like the way this country is headed, eh???

      • cons2p8ted

        “No doot aboot it eh?!”

    • Yallan

      The actual is fleeting, but possibility lasts forever. Somewhat inline with with hindu and taoist/buddhist thought.

    • Tom

      I think a big part of the problem is that both India and China have considerable barriers(both cultural and legislative) to foreign products coming in so companies can basically get away with a lot of stuff that would result in failure in a free(er) market.

      I have had some business dealings with Tata Steel here in the UK and I would say they are no worse than any other big company but then I am working in a very specific sector so I can not speak of them in general.

    • durabo

      So inept that they can get two titanium spheres tangled up, somehow. Same in Pakistan, the Middle East and all of Africa north of South Africa.

  • Meng Lee Khaw

    Yep, one’s face is an excellent place to press the rifle stock up against.

    • iksnilol

      I think he is checking the sights.

      • jcl

        Yeah, it seems the sight is too low that he can’t peep the sight normally, how are the soldiers suppose to aim it in the field?

        • ostiariusalpha

          Sweet Buttery Jesus (ุนู„ูŠู‡ ุงู„ุจุงุฒู„ุงุก), those sights are even lower than the stock FS2000 BUIS! Maybe it really was designed to be “shouldered” on the face. The brilliant Indian firearms engineering team concluded that this makes for the lowest shooting profile, and frankly does no harm to the looks of the average Indian soldier.

  • john huscio

    Would I be remiss if I said it’s probably gonna suck?

  • Sianmink

    and it will be an embarrassment of committee design and shoddy labor, like everything else the Indian government has a hand in.

  • Tyler McCommon

    Still using translucent plastic magazines which had numerous reports of breaking and cracking in the cold combat in the mountains with the INSAS.

    Oh India you’ll never learn.

    • A.WChuck

      The mag is clearly marked as OK, so it’s…ok.
      ๐Ÿ˜‰

      • Sianmink

        OK

  • BrandonAKsALot

    Good to see Tapco has moved into firearms production.

    On a serious note, the random missing section of gas tube with exposed piston is a fantastic idea. Especially since it’s in a railed section that seems to serve no purpose, but to destroy anything mounted on top when hot gasses are expelled there. Maybe it’s to toast some Naan bread, which hey, I would stop in the heat of battle to toast and eat some. It’s delicious.

    • Squirreltakular

      Yeah, that had to be done intentionally, like as a cutaway or something. If not, jeez. Yeah. No words.

      • jono102

        That’s what I initially thought, it was a Sensationalized demo/trg rifle.

      • BrandonAKsALot

        Then they must have stopped the cut-away there. I don’t see anything else with cuts. Maybe they are saving money on their cut-aways.

    • Tom

      It sort of looks like it was designed by someone who knew what a gun was but had never used one and had no idea how they actually worked so spent a minute on Wikipedia.

      • BrandonAKsALot

        Like Hollywood.

  • Leonidas

    I do not believe India can develope a serviceable rifle. If they have a capable brain, they would choose AR-15 rifle. All patents expired. And a proven design. Just copy it. May be you can change DI to piston system.

    • DancesWithGlock

      Had me right up until the piston. #DIforLife

      • TJbrena

        Gas piston guns (oprod if you want to get technical) are easier to design and produce, IIRC. I don’t see DI vs GP as necessarily opposed to each other so much as trade-offs.

    • Yallan

      Would stink of white mans burden though. Really they have no rifle to turn to that wasn’t on the wrong side of an indian. Guess that’s why they didn’t just copy the AK, practically a the warlords/jihadists calling card nowadays.

      • snmp

        India have production licence for AKM47

  • Is it a rifle, or merely some Ganges sludge poured into a mold of a rifle?

  • Lance

    Don’t matter it’ll have issues and be brought back to the drawing board anyway.

  • Vitsaus

    We laugh now, but even US arms have historically been subjected to the “has to be designed here” mentality that has led us to issuing arms which may not have been most ideal for the time compared to other available options.

    • Joshua

      Yeah sorry…no.

      • tts

        He is right though.

        NIH (Not Invented Here) is a common problem for every country, including the US. Look at all the past shenanigans with the M14 vs the FAL, or the US’s instance at using 7.62x51mm instead of .280 Brit, or all the nonsense that went on with the M16 when it was first introduced.

        The big difference with the US vs India right now is I’d say there is less open or venal corruption among mid and low levels of govt. and/or business in the US than India. IMO the political and economic corruption that is going on right now in India more closely resembles the sort of problems the US had during the Gilded Age.

        This isn’t to say the US doesn’t have major corruption issues. The problem there with the US is mostly White Collar (ie. banks + Wall St.) and top level govt. (ie. who gets what contract or contract terms are written to favor only 1 company) corruption though.

        • nadnerbus

          The US has always had a thriving private small arms market to drive military designs, though. Yes, military procurement is a fluster cluck, and always has been. But there have always been solid private companies to submit and refine designs.

          From what I understand, India really has no such small arms industrial and knowledge base. Combine that with the sheer levels of graft and corruption there, and their programs have no hope.

          • tts

            Ehhh thats kind’ve a goal post shift. But even if you want to focus on private small arms companies even then there are many examples of NIH or flat out incompetence in the US. Look at the Colt’s troubles, both recent and in the 90’s, for instance.

            In particular these days, really for at least the last decade or so, most everyone in the US small arms industry just seems to want to play it safe and just produces AR15, AK47, Glock/”plastic” wonder 9’s, and 1911 variants with minor tweaks or accessories. They’re really not doing much to drive US military designs at all anymore.

            If India can produce a fairly modern mid-range rocket there is no technical or knowledge based reason why they can’t produce a decent small arm. The problem resides in whomever is running their small arms development ultimately.

          • nadnerbus

            I wasn’t trying to move the goalposts. Just pointing out a reason why us defense procurement has an advantage, despite being corrupt and inefficient in its own right. The problem is that the Indian government is running their small arms development. US military procurement is a nightmare. Case in point, all the carbine replacement trials that really aren’t, and never were going to be. Strong possibility that the pistol replacement program will end up the same. Tons of waste, stupidity, and corruption to be had there. But they are all competitively bid out to the private sector, even if the process is dirty as hell. In the case that the the US military was actually serious about procuring a new rifle or pistol, the design is going to come from the private sector, albeit with revisions for military requirements.

            The last time the US military designed its own service rifle was the M14, and that had all the hallmarks of government inefficiency. McNamara was at least smart enough to put a nail in the coffin of that program and go to the private sector for its replacement. Then, the military being what it is, screwed that up by changed specs on the M16 and ammo without proper testing and evaluation. More government waste and stupidity.

            Their (India’s) native fighter program has had all the same issues, as well as their homegrown ship building. They almost always have to go to Russia or the west in the end to procure their needs. I’m not saying they can’t fix it, India is full of very smart people. But if they had a large and diverse enough economy that was doing the R&D in the private sector for profit motive, I would bet they would get there much more quickly.

          • tts

            I would say that the advantage with the current US procurement process is really in the amount of money the US military/govt. is willing to throw at a problem.

            That and maybe the guys in charge of running the weapon testing are more honest about calling something good or bad despite the money getting thrown around. Many of them are or were mid level career military themselves and seem genuinely interested in making sure the troops get something decent.

            Certainly does make for some interesting reading at times. Particularly WRT to the F35. The DOT&E has been crapping all over that thing massively for a while now and while it hasn’t gotten the military to stop declaring early IOC (read: Marines) at least its making them admit that things need to be fixed.

          • nadnerbus

            I guess what I’m saying is competitive bidding out to the private sector is an end run around government corruption that is innate to some degree in any nation. Until that process creates defense monopolies that become corrupt and reliant on government contracts anyway…

            *cough Lockheed cough*

          • tts

            I would say that neither a totally govt. ran operation or one that looked to the private sector to do development/procurement is inherently free from corruption or perfect.

            Both have flaws and both models have at times produced good results from a historical perspective.

            IMO it comes down to who is running things and how they’re doing it. If the person in charge is corrupt or incompetent than any system can be suborned or made to fail.

            FWIW my ideal development/procurement system would have a govt. and private side to it, whenever practical, in order to keep all options open.

          • nadnerbus

            I can agree with that. Each side helps keep the other honest. US ship building prior to the closing of most Naval Shipyards I think proves that point. Now there is no option for naval shipbuilding other than the few large private shipyards left, and costs seem to reflect that. Competition and options are always good.

          • Yeah, India’s acquisition system seems to be mired in the kind of corruption like the bad stories of US Civil War profiteers, blended with a decidedly non-Western fatalism and belief in “appearances” over actual performance.

            They might actually benefit from some “honest” cutthroat corruption where the players know they have to acknowledge reality eventually, even if they sweep it under the rug with “cost overruns”. ๐Ÿ˜€

        • noamsaying

          The F35 is our procurement fiasco that makes this rifle program look like peanuts.

    • Aside from the M14, which inferior native small arm was chosen for American military usage over a better foreign option?

      • DW

        M1903, but that’s debatable. It’s an American Mauser that isn’t better than the orinigal and some say is slightly worse.

        • Inarguably worse in all respects except the sights. Pretty much every single “improvement” (all actually done in a failed attempt to avoid a patent infringement suit) was worse, and it wasn’t even based off the best Mauser design readily available at the time.

      • ensitue

        As to NIH that is incorrect. The 75 mm gun mounted in the Sherman was French, Springfield was a Mauser copy, the M1 Garand was Canadian, the M-3 was a rip off of the STEN, the 20mm HS m213 is Swiss, the 40mm Bofors gun was Swedish, add infinites

        • mosinman

          *the M3 was a French design
          and the M1 was designed by a Canadian American
          and i’ve never heard of the M3 being a STEN copy

          • Tom

            To be fair to the M3 I think if you are going to try and produce an SMG that is as simple as possible to manufacture you are not going to move far away from the STEN. I would be fairly certain that when the Americans realised they had a need for a cheap easy to manufacture SMG they looked at the STEN and said lets make something like this but add a really weird feature (the ejection port) for the hell of it :).

          • mosinman

            whoops, forgot to differentiate between the M3 75mm tank gun and M3 SMG.

        • Don’t forget the Norwegian Krag or the copying of an English copy of a German Mauser (M1917).

          • Tom

            Regarding the M1917 I think it was mostly simple expedience that saw it adopted. Though the US did discontinue its use and stick with the Springfield after WWI but that I suspect has more to do with weight and length than a simple case of NIOH.

      • M60 GPMG. M73 and M219 tank MGs. FGR-17 Viper (thankfully cancelled at the last minute).

        That’s just off the top of my head…

  • TheNotoriousIUD

    Indian quality control: “OK” sharpied on mag.

  • BearSlayer338

    That guy in the red shirt is a meme waiting to happen.

    • Graham2

      Yep, he needs laser beams coming out of his eyes!

      • BrandonAKsALot

        They are already there…..

    • Stanley Rabbid

      Why wait?

    • nadnerbus

      I’m game

    • Cymond

      Red Shirt, Photobomber, and Noob all have comedic potential.

  • DanGoodShot

    The guy in the red shirt is either using his jedi mind trick or is going to stone the rifle to death for being on another mans… face???

  • mosinman

    Just the rifle to defend the favored designated sh*tting street

    • mosinman

      (i’m kidding of course)

  • DAN V.

    Thats gotta be one smelly room….

  • Broz

    Gas system resembles a Daewoo…

  • wetcorps

    The ammount of self satisfied Americans in this thread is staggering.

    • Edeco

      Harumph! India is being uppity by not using AR’s instead ๐Ÿ˜›

      • Scott P

        Agree

    • Scott P

      I am an American and I am saddened by this. They haven’t learned nor seem to care about the mistakes from their INSAS debacle. They should not have cancelled their military rifle trial program and adopted a foreign design to avoid this.

  • Having worked with many Indian engineers over the years I can tell you that finding one that is talented and an original thinker is very rare and these are the ones that escaped to the USA to make “real” money. The good ones could at least follow a set of procedures and generate work that had been done before by others but solving design issues and approaching problems with new methods were not their forte. Given that, I can imagine what their design group was like that designed that obvious abortion of a rifle. Just look at the sights, they are obviously too low to be used given the height of the stock cheek weld. Luckily they cut that window into the magazine well so you could see the rounds you have left in the magazine as you go through them while clearing malfunction after malfunction. Of course this gun was designed by the same people that came up with the INSAS, a AK based gun, that was unreliable. Now that was a challenge that they met! Well at least when the rifle goes down they can make a local call to customer service, but being told “to turn it off and wait 15 seconds before turning it back on” never really seems to fix a problem with a rifle.

    • MeaCulpa

      I do think that India and Indian universities produces some fine engineers. The problem is that there’s a ton of prestige in holding a engineering degree and therefore there’s a ton of pressure on young people to obtain such a degree. The result of that pressure is a demand for, and naturally a supply of, diploma mills in engineering degrees; there’s also a lot of Indians that attend solid schools and studies engineering even if they don’t have the slightest interest in engineering. Basically it’s like people attending universities and colleges in Europe or the Americas because of family/societal pressure “to go to college” even if they aren’t interested in higher learning, barely graduates with the easiest credits possible after having spent more time getting drunk than attending lectures or doing actual work.

      A friend of mine attended a college in Europe where they had a bunch of Indian exchange students. He was assigned a group project together with a couple of the Indians that happened to speak English poorly. He was worried about them being able to pull their weight but they divided the work and made a plan. My friend started reading the material and writing his part of the project. A couple of days after being assigned the project – and well before he and the Indians had planed to sit down to edit to project and write the introduction and conclusions etc. – he received a file via email containing the work of both the Indians. The page count was high as hell and the English was impeccable, he was blown away by the quality of the work, not being naรฏve he did get a bit suspicious. He copied the first sentence in the Indians work and pasted it into Google search; BINGO! The first hit was what the Indians had sent to him, verbatim. When he confronted them, and pointed out that he and them could get expelled and barred from attending all higher education, they basically said “what’s the big deal, this is the way we do it in where we’re from”. He said that they had two choices 1) do the actual work, or 2) being reported to the professor and thereby getting expelled and deported. The Indians opted for 1).

      • The number of resumes I have gone through, when we were hiring for a senior engineer position, from Indian engineer applicants that were falsified were amazing. What was worse is the falsification was obvious since they had taken work history directly from projects mentioned in trade publications in the industry. When asked about it they just shrugged and acted like it was not an issue. Obviously this sort of thing did not just come from Indian engineers but it did seem more rampant.

        A weird thing is, one of the best engineers I worked with was an Indian engineer but he was a Christian. Talking with him, I learned that he actually wanted to be a doctor but India reserves a number of spots for Hindu Indians in their universities regardless of ranking of the individual, sound familiar? He was so put off by the system he came to the USA and began an extremely successful career in engineering.

        • That’s been my experience. And worse – the good ones who *don’t* come here to the West are hidden in a haystack of mediocrity.

      • India (and most of the world outside “Western” nations – and I include places like South Korea and Japan as “Western” in this specific case) tends to do STEM degrees with a lot of rote learning and parroting back to the instructor.

        It’s a fairly large problem. What they graduate as “engineers” often times equate to someone who would be (in the US, or Germany, or Israel, etc.) equivalent to an engineering technician with no degree, a technical certificate, or maybe a two year degree. Only, the Indian or Iranian “engineer” wasted two years or more for the prestige of a degree.

        I’ve met some very good engineers from India, China, and the Middle East. However, all but two of them had “Western” degrees and had immigrated to and naturalized as Western citizens. There is a real “brain drain” in action, but it is partially camoflaged by the appearance of huge numbers of STEM-degreed graduates (who never learned critical thnking and arent well practised in independant and innovative problem solving)who stay home.

        Of course, with the sheer size of India and China, that still means a lot of good engineers – unfortunately they are foten lost in a sea of inferiors with identical degrees who mistake consensus and appearance with competence…

  • RicoSuave

    It is interesting that India could figure out how to launch a Mars space probe successfully. But a fairly conventional invention like a rifle seems to be beyond their technical skills.

    • tts

      Different people running the show probably is the cause of that, technical skills aren’t the problem if they can pull off mid range rockets or satellites.

      Could also be that the people in charge of the rocketry/space program were told that if they screwed up or played games with the money they would get burned for it. Maybe even litterally burned for it. Things work very differently over there politically and rules are often treated more as suggestions by even low level/power politicians and people.

  • Yoga Praditya

    I just don’t get it, India is one of the World biggest spender (buyer, importer) in war equipments and why do they decide to screw up in this?

    • tts

      Huge amounts of money being thrown around opens the door to all sorts of corruption issues with plenty of opportunities for political buck passing to throw up a smoke screen and confuse voters about who is at fault and how to fix the problems.

      The US is having a somewhat similar issue with the F35 racking up tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars worth of cost overruns and years of delays.

  • Vitor Roma

    Damn, if they want fancy and bulky, they should just go with the ARX, at least it is a extremely reliable design.

    • iksnilol

      The one TFB jammed up by simply using its controls?

      Doesn’t seem extremely reliable to me.

    • CommonSense23

      Reliable by what standards?

    • jono102

      The ARX 160 didn’t have any fans following the NZDF rifle trials. Ended up being somewhere around the bottom of the 8 rifles trialed. With this rifle looks like the Indians have seen the 2 trains of thought:
      1. Tight tolerances (AR etc), accuracy, an in-ability for crap to get it in the first place.
      2. Loose tolerances (AK), an ability to function once crap gets in
      Having seen these and said “Lets get the worst of both world’s”

  • Evan

    That rifle looks excessively large for something that fires an intermediate cartridge. Those are also some great weapons handling skills by the guy holding it. Note the finger on the trigger and overall sense that he’s terrified to be holding a gun at all.

  • kenan potah

    Why do people when they say INSAS rifle they have to say it’s an AK derived rifle (which is true). But when they say Tavor they never say it’s a bullpup derived AK?

    • jcl

      Tavor have zero resemblance to AK outside of both using long stroke action. Tavor have different receiver material, different bolt and bolt carrier shape, different magazine, different trigger group. INSAS is basically AK clone with modification to gas system, charging handle and different magazine material.

      • Colin S

        Or to put it another way… The Tavor works, the Indians took an AK and broke it.

      • iksnilol

        And different receiver architecture, more inspired by FAL in some regards.

  • SD

    LOL.

  • Max Glazer

    Given how the INSAS went, which is little more then needlessly complex butchered version of AK made in a disgraceful manner, I don’t hold out much hope. It took them 32 years to make Arjun tank which is Indian hull and the rest is pretty much all foreign.

  • Doom

    COME ON INDIA, POO IN LOO ALREADY!