Run. Hide. Fight. PSA on Surviving Active Shooter Scenario by City of Houston

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Mass shootings are incredibly rare, if caught in one, they are an incredibly dangerous scenario. While many TFB users may be tempted to use their concealed firearm, the most obvious course of action to survive is NOT to engage the active shooter (they can shoot back).

Surprisingly, the City of Houston (go Texas!) put together a solid and high-production PSA on surviving an active shooter. They show the steps in detail and provide tips in common language, demonstrated action, and appropriate candor.

Kudos to Houston. Capture



Nathan S.

One of TFB’s resident Jarheads, Nathan now works within the firearms industry. A consecutive Marine rifle and pistol expert, he enjoys local 3-gun, NFA, gunsmithing, MSR’s, & high-speed gear. Nathan has traveled to over 30 countries working with US DoD & foreign MoDs.

Nathan can be reached at Nathan.S@TheFirearmBlog.com

The above post is my opinion and does not reflect the views of any company or organization.


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  • TheNotoriousIUD

    Step 1 : Wait for shooter to become delirious with heat and choking refinery exhaust.

    • Thirst_quencheR

      Avoid Pasadena at all costs!

      • TheNotoriousIUD

        Ive lived in Houston for 20 years and me and my buddies used to go to a place called G’s Ice House down there. It was a bar that also sold bait. I liked riding the mechanical bull.

        • Tassiebush

          I wonder if anyone ever used the bait as a bar snack?

          • Realist

            I’ve seen worse back in the 80s in Olongopo City at a place called Freaks Stagger Inn.

          • TheNotoriousIUD

            I’m guessing yes on that.

      • supergun

        kalifornia.

      • Avoid California at all costs!

  • anon

    Much better than california’s “run, hide, soil yourself” plan.

    • Realist

      You’ve got CA’s SOP backwards…

    • Nicks87

      I thought that was their anti-rape plan?

      • Ken

        That’s CO. If you’re being raped, you should pee on yourself to reduce the attacker’s libido.

        • Drake_Burrwood

          They do realized female pee releases attraction pheromones.

          There is an old claim that if females want to attract male attention pee in a cup and pour it in the front yard by the gate.. Or is that why they said it.

    • csbubba

      NO NO NO, their motto is SOIL YOUR AND REPEAT!

  • Haunted Puppeteer

    As the video demonstrates, Texas 30.06 signs are highly effective.

    When you are holding a chair over your head, waiting for the gunman to come through the door, you can think to yourself “By golly, I sure am glad my coworkers and myself are legally prohibited from carrying concealed firearms.”

  • Esh325

    It’s pretty sad the USA needs to have these types of videos.

    • Joshua

      Shooting like the video portrays are rare here. The vast majority of gun violence are suicides 66% and there is really only around 8,500 homicides with firearms yearly and they are mostly gang violence.

      No one wants to address the gang violence as it is generally limited to inner cities so they focus on the statistically rare mass shooting.

      I also take it you don’t live in the US. Most inner city people are proud to live in the Ghetto and don’t want change and instead enjoy wallowing in filth and drugs and violence.

      • Esh325

        Why does being a suicide mean it doesn’t matter? 8500 is a lot compared to some where like the UK has 58 gun murders each year. And when we count all gun deaths there’s 30,000 gun deaths in the USA each year. That’s no small number. Highest in the developed world. Gang violence? I don’t think there is a catagory for that.

        • Joshua

          Because people who want to die will die.

          In 2014 there were 41,148 suicides, of those half were done with a firearm.

          Why are gun suicides more important than suicides by other means.

          You should learn some statistics before you come in here and act all superior.

          • Esh325

            That’s not really exactly true according to studies. “Research shows that whether attempters live or die depends in large part on the ready availability of highly lethal means, especially firearms.” http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/magazine/guns-and-suicide/

          • Joshua

            Yet 21,000 people managed to commit suicide without a firearm last year. Do they not matter to your superior self or is it just the ones who commit suicide with a firearm? Even if we outlaw and melted down all guns tomorrow there would still be on average 21,000 suicides yearly.

            Why aren’t you concerned for the other half of suicide victims?

            So what your saying is…people who want to die pick the most effective less painful method…anything else you want to point out captain obvious.

          • Esh325

            You were the one before that seem to have implied that gun suicides don’t matter. They do matter, but we are talking about guns here. Guns are a very attractive tool for suicide and in many other cases wouldn’t be replaced by such an effective means.

          • Joshua

            If people want to die its their perogitave.

            I’m just stating facts. There is an equal number of gun suicides as there are suicides not involving a gun every year.

          • Esh325

            It can’t be a fact if it’s not true. There is a link between suicide and gun ownership.

          • Joshua

            Sure. Half of all suicides are committed with a firearm. The other half use other means.

            Is a suicide a suicide? If half choose to use a firearm does it matter more? Why not figure out why 41,000 people yearly feel the need to die.

            Also firearms only equate for half of all suicides. If we removed all firearms tomorrow we would still have 21,000 suicides yearly.

          • Cymond

            “If we removed all firearms tomorrow we would still have 21,000 suicides yearly.”

            We’d have more than 21,000 because many of them would use something other than a gun. However, we’d probably decrease the total number of suicides some because some people would fail. However, I don’t have any stats on the success rates of different suicide methods (and I don’t want to know, either).

          • UninfringedTech

            Firearms don’t equate for ANY suicides. Who’s to say the 21,000 that used firearms wouldn’t find another way?

          • Wolfgar

            Japan has a higher suicide rate than the USA as do many countries where firearms are not allowed.

          • Marcus D.

            Suicide statistics are stable over time, irrespective of the method used. Japan has twice the suicide rate as the US–and they have no guns. Have you looked up the suicide rate in China? Those people usually jump. Or England? They don’t have many guns either, but that doesn’t seem to slow down the suicide rate. If there are no guns, another method will be used. The gun doesn’t cause the suicide, and it is not a death by “gun violence.” “Gun violence” infers that the deceased is a victim of a crime, which, with suicide, is clearly not the case.
            England may have only 58 murders in which guns are used–but the rate of violent crime is five times higher than in the US. The usual weapons are knives (which are also outlawed). Rape there is rampant. Fights and beatings are common. Here, we have football and baseball games with only rare violent outbreaks, while there riots at rugby and soccer games caused by “hooligans” appear common.
            In short, violent crime will occur irrespective of the presence of guns, just as it has for thousands of years. You don’t think the Code of Hammurabi or the Ten commandments were written because people were good and peaceful do you?
            So don’t be a fool and confuse correlation and causation.

          • JRJ21

            Not to my rights,,, they damn sure don’t ,,,My rights do not rise and fall with the mis use of anything by the cretins of the world Do you really think we should get rid of anything that cretins can mis use? Jefferson said”I would rather live in a dangerous freedom than in a secure slavery””

          • Esh325

            Guns aren’t only misused by cretins.

        • Joshua

          Also in reply the UK had 640 homicides of all kinds in 2012.

          The US had 12,765 homicides of all types.

          8,885 were committed with a firearm.

          That means 3,380 were committed by other means.

          So tell me why the US has has 5x the murder rate of the UK if guns were removed from the equation.

          • Esh325

            I’m not exactly sure what you’re getting it.

          • Joshua

            I’m saying that sans guns the US still has more homicides yearly than the UK.

            3,800 vs 640.

            Why? Why is the US more violent across the board than the UK?

            Take out the guns and the US still has 5x more homicides yearly than the UK…why?

            Focusing solely on guns does no one a favor.

            Even then the chances of one being murders are minutely small.

            About .00004% chance of being murdered yearly in the US by any means.

          • Esh325

            And 3800 isn’t an improvement?

          • Joshua

            That’s if removing all guns tomorrow would mean those same people didn’t commit a homicide. There’s no guarantee they won’t find other means.

          • Esh325

            What other means are just as effective as a firearm?

          • Joshua

            I never argued a firearm isn’t effective.

            I said we have no proof that if we removed all firearms tomorrow that we would cut out 8,000 homicides yearly.

            No one can guarantee that by removing every single gun in the US we would only have 3,800 homicides yearly.

            Killers gonna kill.

          • Esh325

            Not to mention you discount the 30,000 deaths each year total by firearms. I never said all guns should be banned. Certainly the statistical trend is that the more guns you have the more death you have.

          • Joshua

            Not really. The US homicide rate is the lowest it has been in 50 years, yet firearm sales are at their highest in history.

            Also lets try to differentiate homicides and suicides. They are completely different things and should we list them both the US see 60,000 deaths a year.

            Why do you lump gun homicides and suicides together, yet seperate homicides of all means from suicides of all means?

            If we lump all deaths from firearms together, we need to lump homicide and suicide deaths together.

          • Esh325

            You can’t just discard a fact just because it doesn’t coincide with your statements. You’re cherry picking. I’ve told you there is a link between suicide and guns. 14,244 is still a significant number even i we remove gun suicides. And not to mention I don’t think I’ve ever seen a number compiled from the amount of people that are injured by guns that don’t die. Just think of the people that are paralyzed from gun shots.

          • Joshua

            I’m not Cherry picking.

            If we lump gun homicides and gun suicides together, we need to lump all homicides and all suicides together.

          • Esh325

            And even if we don’t include suicides the amount of gun murders and intentional injuries is the highest in the USA among the developed world. It’s great the murder rate is dropping, but it’s still very high.

          • Joshua

            But guns alone are not the issue. We do a disservice to ourselves by focusing on the gun.

            In 2014 there were 1,165,318 violent crimes.
            There were 112,648 rape cases.
            There were 14,249 homicides.
            There were 324,896 robberies.
            There were 741,249 aggravated assault.
            There were 8,277,829 property crimes.
            There were 1,729,806 burglaries.
            There were 5,898,496 larcenie theft.
            And there was 689,257 motor vehicle thefts.

            The US has very high crime problem across the board.

          • Esh325

            Are guns an issue at all in your opinion?

          • Joshua

            Of course. But I don’t think limiting freedoms are the right thing to do to combat gun homicides.

            I have yet to see anyone who wants to implement gun control offer gun violence solutions that will not infringe upon our freedoms.

          • Esh325

            The USA already has limits on freedoms, including guns. I guess the question is how far? What is Constitutional? It’s interesting how people in the USA always talk about the rights of gun owners, but what about rights of everybody else? It’s like they think only the armed have rights and everybody else can go pound sand. Like the large amount of cases where an armed person kills an unarmed person and they there is always a group of people who side with the armed person no matter the legal outcome or whether or not it was self defense because they think being armed and having the ability to shoot somebody means you’re right and with no coincedence the person also thinks this.

          • Joshua

            Everyone has the same rights. Murder is illegal and bad people do bad things.

            I’m still not willing to give up constitutional rights because a small number of bad people do bad things.

            Also again I’ll ask for the third time why do you care so much about a country you do not live in.

          • Lee

            I agree with you Joshua on the above statement; however foreigners can also be curious. I was born in the UK but moved Australia at a fairly young age. We had a great firearms culture until one f#ckwit ruined it. People are curious, and as the US is a culturally relevant country regards firearm ownership it good to ask questions from those with some interest or insight.

          • Dan

            I dont know of many people siding with an armed person who commits murder. If the person was protecting themselves then yes.

          • Marcus D.

            That is utter nonsense.The fact that a person is not armed with a firearm does not mean that that person is incapable of causing significant injury or death. And the fact that an armed person kills an unarmed person does not mean the armed person was acting in self-defense. Facts matter–or are you too naive to recognize that? And the fact of the matter is that most people–in all countries it seems–jump to conclusions before they hear all the facts.

          • Esh325

            I’m not discounting there are other factors, but at the start of the conversation, it was about guns that’s why I’m focusing on guns. The way I see it it’s a puzzle piece. Guns are one part of the puzzle.

          • Marcus D.

            There is no cause and effect relationship between guns and crime. Correlation, perhaps (though studies say otherwise), but causation not at all. Guns do not make people do evil things–people do evil things with guns, sometimes. There are 350,000,000 (est.) guns in the US, yet 349,500,000 (or more) manged to cause no one any injury at all. Solving the “gun problem” ignores that guns are not the cause of the problem of violent crime, and thus can have no effect on solving it.

          • Marcus D.

            Nonsense. Try Mexico. Guns are illegal there. Yet thousands upon thousands die each year. Same in Brazil. Same in Venezuela.don’t cherry pick your statistics. What is the crime rate in china, where most guns are banned? Do you think they are honest about their statistics? And have you failed to note the huge number of attacks with big bad knives? Humans are violent by nature–it is a survival asset. Taking away guns will not make them less so.

          • Esh325

            I mean you can still love guns and own guns while recognizing that the USA has huge gun problem.

          • Joshua

            The US has a huge violent crime problem across the board.

          • Esh325

            And easy access to firearms makes it more lethal than it has to be.

          • Joshua

            God you sound just like the Brady campaign.

            So tell me why does the US gun violence bother you so much.

            It’s not like your an American from what I gather.

          • Esh325

            The thing is about crime rates in particular violent crime is that each country defines violent crime differently. Some have a broader definition of violent crime.

          • Wolfgar

            God this gets old. Look up democide. This is why we have the Second Amendment. End of conversation.

          • Dan

            He wont quit he is superior to us. His supreme country that no doubt needed it’s ass saved by us at some point is sooo much better than ours.

          • Dan

            That statement right there shows just how little you know about the U.S.

          • JRJ21

            Violent crime cut in half in the last twenty years since concealed carry came in,,More guns equals less crime.England has five times our violent crime rate.

          • Esh325
          • Marcus D.

            Bingo. Crime is crime, violent crime is violent crime, and that someone used a knife or a crowbar does not make it less violent.

          • Dan

            We don’t have a gun problem we have a people do bad things with guns problem. Do you also place blame on the number of cars we own for drunk driving accidents?

          • Wolfgar

            Perfect comparison. I’m sure it is beyond his ability to comprehend.

          • Dan

            People like him think by instituting tougher restrictions that all of a sudden the problem will stop. Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people all at once without a gun. I don’t buy”the make it harder to kill and it will stop happening” mindset. America is a violent place. With out guns we will use knives we would resort back to pointy sticks and rocks. Guns have 0 responsibility in how they are used.

          • Harrison Jones

            The UK has a violent crime rate 4x higher than the US, but their murder rate is lower. The psychological of violent crime on the victim needs to be taken into account. Also the UK isn’t as transparent with their reporting of crime as the US is. Also it is two vastly different cultures. Most LEOs here will tell you guns lower crime. Studies have also shown that felons are most scared of law abiding gun owners.

            If you fix the societal issues of certain segments of the population then our violent crime rates and murder rates would go way down. Either really cracking down on drugs or legalizing then would destroy a lot of the gangs and cut down the related crimes.

            Also if you look at the trends in country from the time they banned guns if they have a lower crime rate it was often falling at greater rate before guns were banned. It’s not a black and white issue. Putting breathalyzers in vehicles would make more sense than any new firearms restrictions.

          • The Forty ‘Twa

            The US has a very narrow definition of violent crime compared to England and Wales. Any assault without injury would not be counted as a violent crime in the US but makes up over 25% of what is considered violent crime in E&W. Almost 52% of crime considered to be violent in E&W results in no injury.

            Even without assaults that do occasion injury, minor injuries would not be counted towards the definition of violent crime in the US but would in E&W.

            Comparing violent crime in E&W with violent crime in the US is extremely difficult due to the wildly different interpretation of what constitutes a violent crime in the US and across the pond. By my estimates, if you took out most of the crime from the E&W crime statistics that wouldn’t be counted in the US, E&W would have a very similar (if not lower) level of violent crime.

          • n0truscotsman

            The ‘gun problem’ is a symptom, not a cause. If you come from a Scandi country (correct me if im wrong),, then you should realize this better than anybody.

            There are a multitude of reasons for the US homicide rate.

            The worst culprit, IMO, is the incentivization of crime, particularly homicide, which drives illicit firearms markets. Hugely attributable to the War on Drugs.

            This doesn’t explain mass shootings, however, as they are typically not committed by criminal/war on drugs-related outliers.

            Any action that could hypothetically undertaken (assault weapons bans, magazine limits, universal registration, etc) would just be fighting diminishing returns so long as we continue fighting over the cure for the symptoms rather than treating the underlying problem.

            Unfortunately, there are those in the US that DO want disarmament and are using the discussion to push foward their agendas. It is important to distinguish those who want to address the problems (even if they do support stricter gun legislation) from those who just want disarmament.

          • JRJ21

            No problem at all, we have cut the violent crime rate in half in the last twenty years and the number of guns in citizen hands has skyrocketed.ENGLAND HAS FIVE TIMES OUR VIOLENT CRIME RATE.You are counting gang deaths and criminal deaths in your damn lying stats.We have giant cities terrorized by criminal gangs and unarmed citizens being left helpless and still people like you want to disarm them even more ,knowing that the criminals are hoping you do.THAT MAKES YOU COMPLICIT IN IT THE DISARMING OF ENGLAND HAS LEFT YOU HELPLESS TO STOP TERRORIST FROM BEHEADING SOLDIERS ON ENGLISH STREETS.

          • KestrelBike

            What part of simple math is cherry picking? What you’re doing is hinging everything on one number that means little when taken into context.

          • Dan

            There is a link between people who own rope and suicide as well or my sister who chose a bed sheet over her .38spl

          • mosinman

            and why is it so important that someone killed themselves with a gun? would it be any more just if they poisoned themselves? people who are suicidal will find a way to kill themselves

          • Sulaco

            The statistical trend is nothing like you portray at all in the US:
            Here are the facts from the FBI versus the English Home Office (their version of the FBI): in the United States there are 386 violent crimes per 100,000 citizens. In England – a land without guns – there are 1,361 violent crimes per 100,000 citizens. Almost all violent crime in America occurs in urban inner cities with the strictest gun control, run 100 percent by liberal Democrat politicians as you find in England. If you subtracted Chicago, Detroit, Baltimore, Memphis, St Louis, leveland, New Orleans and Washington, D.C. from the gun death statistics, America is among the safest countries in the world with a violent crime rate that is in decline for the second decade in a row.

          • The Forty ‘Twa

            The FBI only count a small number of offences as violent crime compared to what is defined as a violent crime in E&W. It only includes Murder, Forcible Rape, Robbery and Aggravated Assault according to the FBI.

            Other sex offences aren’t included (so a violent sexual assault wouldn’t necessarily be counted) and an aggravated assault is defined as “as an unlawful attack by one person upon another for the purpose of inflicting severe or aggravated bodily injury.”. I could walk up to you in the street, punch you in the face and as long as you don’t have a serious injury it isn’t counted as a violent crime. Contrast that with England and Wales where any assault (no matter how minor the injury) is recorded as a violent crime along with all manner of other offences whether there was any violence involved or not (such as threats to kill, neglect of children and harassment).

            The US has a very narrow definition of violent crime (almost too narrow I would argue) whilst England and Wales has a very broad definition of violent crime. You are not comparing like with like here and of course a country that excludes a whole host of offences that could reasonably be considered violent crime (like assault without injury or minor injuries) is going to have a lower level of violent crime!

          • Sulaco

            The damned EU has no reason to lecture us about anything: Harvard researchers have found in the most recent study (2013) that where firearms ownership is most dense in the US, violent crime rates are the LOWEST. And where firearms ownership is the
            most restricted and least dense, violent crime rates are the HIGHEST. The researchers happened to point out the almost four times higher violent crime rate in England versus the United States. England also has 125 percent higher rape victims per 100,000 people than the United States. A study by the United States National Academy of Sciences reviewed hundreds of books, articles and studies and concluded there is no example anywhere showing that strict gun control regulations have ever reduced violent crime.

            Other extensive research has proven that guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens prevent or stop violent crimes from occurring anywhere from hundreds of thousands of times per year, to as
            many as 2.5 million times per year. It is also a fact that the nine states with the lowest violent crime rates are all “right to carry” states. According to the Daily Mail: Britain’s violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union. Official
            crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa – widely considered one of the world’s most dangerous countries. Following1997, the number of recorded violent attacks in the UK soared by 77 per cent to 1.158million – or more than two every minute. The figures, compiled from reports released by the European Commission and United Nations, also show: work up the numbers to a correct % per population and I will take the US over any other.

          • Marcus D.

            Really? Cite your statistics. FACT: the murder rate in the US (and in fact the gross number of murders) has dropped steadily since 1993–the year before the Clinton Era Assault Weapons Ban, and is half what it was then. At the same time, the total number of firearms in the US has more than doubled, and firearm sales (as measured by NICS checks) have skyrocketed since Obama took office. The statistics are available on line from the FBI as to homicide, and the BATFE as to NICS checks. (By the by, the FBI does not count suicides, only homicides.) And this is to say nothing about the statistical studies by John Lott–none of which have been refuted–demonstrate that more guns equals LESS crime.

          • Dan

            Rope and overdose that is what is popular right now in my area

          • Marcus D.

            Jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge, any tall building or cliff, cutting wrists, poison, intentional suffocation or hanging, driving a car into an immovable object….or the ever popular suicide by cop.

          • Durrrrr

            “I’m saying that sans guns the US still has more homicides yearly than the UK.

            3,800 vs 640.”

            Lets do some basic math here. population. UK: 65 million US: 320 million. So you need to factor that in. For simplicity’s sake, scale the UK homicide number proportionally by a factor of 5 and it’s 3200.

          • Joshua

            Decent point. Take out their 50 gun homicides and that means they have 590×5 = 2,950.

            So we still beat them in non firearm homicides when populations are adjusted to be equal.

          • Bill

            if your going to argue crime stats, the accepted means is number of occurrences per 100,000 population. Raw numbers don’t mean much. And “chance of getting murdered” is dependent on a zillion different variables.

          • JK

            USA! USA!

          • Marcus D.

            For one, as mentioned, England only classifies a death as a homicide if there has been a conviction, while the US counts bodies, not convictions.

          • JRJ21

            We have a lot more people and A LOT OF GUN DEATHS ARE SOMETIMES A GOOD THING,YOU KNOW,LIKE IN THUGS GETTING WHAT THEY DESERVE

        • Sulaco

          First of all, England and Wales do not count murders in their statistic unless there’s a conviction. The U.S. could cut its murder rate in half by adopting this same practice. That alone won’t closethe gap in gun homicides, but it does show we aren’t exactly dealing with apples and apples. The real reason for their low statistic, however, is not gun control. We know this because their gun crime rate was low…before gun control. Comparing gun homicides in the U.K. before and after gun control for most years after the ban, there were actually more gun homicides overall. And the murder rate has been higher than before gun control for nearly every year since the ban. Gun-related crime has doubled in England and Wales in the past ten years.

          • The Forty ‘Twa

            “First of all, England and Wales do not count murders in their statistic unless there’s a conviction.”

            That just isn’t true. Only 45% of recorded homicides in the statistics for the year to date have resulted in a conviction. The rest is mostly made up of sub-judice cases and those where no suspect has been identified. If what you said was true then the murder rate in E&W would be even lower.

        • Sulaco

          According to the US DOJ the U.S. has around 8,000 gun-related homicides (2012) not anywhere near 30,000.

        • n0truscotsman

          “Why does being a suicide mean it doesn’t matter?”

          its a improper comparison. And the pro gun control side loves to use it because it inflates the numbers to appear worse.

          The hard truth is that every human being has a right to end their life how see fit, and, whether or not you are I agree with it (and *how* they do it)isn’t relevant. This is demonstrated in countries where gun ownership is statistically very low, yet they have higher suicide rates than the United States.

          People that bring up the UK fail to mention that their homicide rate has always been more or less 1/5 that of the US.

          “Gang violence? I don’t think there is a catagory for that.”

          The homicides are broken down in the FBI gang task force statistics, titled, IIRC, “National Gang Threat Assessment”. https://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/2011-national-gang-threat-assessment

          In other words, mass shooters, despite the disproportionate attention they get, constitute a tiny fraction of homicides.

          Its clearly a problem, and Im not trying to downplay it, although the problem is complicated and has no easy solution (arguably, no solution that isn’t arbitrary and tyrannical). Snark and uppity elitism certainly help the dialogue.

    • Joshua

      Also this. According to the FBI there were 8,124 homicides with a firearm in 2014.

      Of those 8,124 homicides 5,592 were committed with a handgun and only 256 committed with a rifle of some form.

      In 2014 there were 13,249 homicides of all kinds.

      Of those 13,249 homicides 5,173 were committed by Blacks, 4,367 were committed by whites, and 4,132 are unknown( so this could be anything).

      According to the kaiser family foundation in 2014 the US has a population of 318,857,056. Of that population blacks made up 12%, whites made up 62%, Hispanics made up 17% of the population.

      So with that said whites who make up 62% of the population committed

      • Esh325

        Just throwing out statistics without any context doesn’t really prove anything.

        • Joshua

          Sure it does.

          It says that one race that makes up 12% of the total population commits 40% of all homicides.

          That’s a pretty significant sum for such a small percentage.

          • Esh325

            Race and crime is really a totally different subject from what we are talking about which are guns deaths.

          • Joshua

            It’s a data point.

            Also why do you care so much? This isn’t your country.

          • Bill

            Um, the victims of homicide tend to be of the same ethnicity of the offender – see my earlier post. So a race that commits 40% of the homicides is likely killing an equivalent percentage of it’s own sub population.

        • Sulaco

          In the US each year 42,000 people die from prescription drug overdose. Ban all prescription drugs? That’s your logic if you want to call it that…

          • milesfortis

            Drug overdose deaths are the leading cause of injury death in the United States, ahead of motor vehicle deaths and firearms deaths, the Drug Enforcement Agency announced on Wednesday.

            In 2013, the most recent year for which data is available, 46,471 people in the United States died from drug overdoses, and more than half of those deaths were caused by prescription painkillers and heroin.

            That compares with the 35,369 who died in motor vehicle crashes and 33,636 who died from firearms, as tallied by the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
            So, now what’s more dangerous?

      • Kevin Riley

        Your use of facts and statistics is racist!
        /sarc

    • Cymond

      We don’t need them, not really. Mass shootings are statistically rare, but they capture people’s attention.
      I compare it to sharks and buses. You’re far mostly likely to be killed by a bus while crossing the street, and yet people are terrified of sharks at the beach.
      Seriously, we have like 30,000 unintentional automobile fatalities a year, but for some reason, no one freaks out about that.

      • Dan

        I cannot upvote your comment enough. Gun deaths are apparently worse than vehicle fatalities. Or being beaten/ stabbed to death. Everyone looks for a quick fix without looking at the why it’s happening.

        • wzrd1

          That *is* one of our society’s major flaws, seeking the quick fix to whatever goes sideways, rather than planning a defense in depth against that problem.

        • Nate Johnson

          Or Abortion….

      • Lee

        Wow. That’s exactly nailed it.

      • Ethan

        Spiders. Mass shootings are like spiders.

        Yes they are physically capable of killing you, but rational adults who study the data understand that is very, very rare.

      • n0truscotsman

        Its part of the MSM fighting for ratings and relevance while they slowly slip into irrelevance.

        Fear culture.

        Its almost as stupid as the idea that stuff like this only happens in the US.

    • Edeco

      ‘need’ is a strong word.

    • Bal256

      It’s pretty sad that the UK needs to have these types of posters

      • Zebra Dun

        I bet the maximum penalty is six months and a fine.

      • n0truscotsman

        Meh. its the UK.

        If there is something they can be outraged about, they will find it.

    • TheNotoriousIUD

      As an American I agree. Mass shootings are an epidemic and at some point gun owners are going to have to decide whether our freedom to arm is for the greater good. I know it’s not a popular point of view around here but the question has to be raised.would a serious curtailment of gun rights really hinder our ability to defend ourselves? I say this as a life long shooter and an owner of legal machine guns from a military family. These massacres have to stop.
      I don’t have the answers but I feel that burying our heads in the sand and saying it’s not our problem will only work for so long. We are a community of law abiding citizens. We are more informed about guns than anyone else. We can either look ahead and be a part of a solution or wait until everyone else gets fed up and finally takes our rights away.

      • milesfortis

        Wrong IUD, whether there is or is not an ‘epidemic’ of “mass shootings” (which I disagree that there is) I have not committed any of them, or any other violent crime and there is no NEED or any REASON for my rights to be curtailed or diminished in any way.
        These ‘massacres’ as you term them (as well as all violent crime) needs to be stopped, but punishing the LAW ABIDING CITIZEN for the acts of criminals is effing stupid and I think you would know better.
        Hell, sir, Henry Mencken commented on this ludicrous idea of curtailing the rights of the law abiding citizen, specifically gun control, multiple decades ago. It’s nothing new.
        Find and punish the criminal committing the crimes. Make their punishment swift, sure and of an intensity to make an impression on them and the rest of their ilk.
        Meddle with my rights at your considerable peril!

      • Marcus D.

        So get rid of gun free zones. [By the way, what is an “epidemic”?] And if you quote Everytown statistics, do you know that they (provably) cooked their numbers? The greatest mass killings in the US (outside the massacres of civilians in Kansas and Missouri during the Civil War, and in the Indian Wars that followed) were committed with bombs and airplanes loaded with jet fuel. Further, the “spree” killers like Columbine, Aurora, Newtown, etc are committed by losers who wanted a moment’s (posthumous) claim to fame, almost all of whom obtained their firearms lawfully and with a background check. The gun didn’t make them do it; but they did intentionally seek out gun free zones to assure the greatest number of victims before being interrupted by an armed response.

        • Bill

          Let’s stop this here and now: NOBODY “cooks the books” when it comes to mass killings and crime in general. Reporting isn’t perfect which is why checks and balances are built into the reporting systems. But dead bodies are hard to hide, and when someone is shot three times in the back of the head and it’s carried as a suicide, that sheet don’t fly these days.

      • Tassiebush

        I think that another issue that barely gets discussed but which is highly relevant to the problem is media coverage. Mass shootings are undeniably a copycat behaviour yet the style of coverage is completely free of any type of critique regarding whether it fuels the problem.
        The colonial British authorities wiped out the similar problem of Amok attacks in Malaya which was basically young men claiming to be posessed and going on a spree with a sword or machete until they were normally stopped by being killed. It was solved by capturing offenders alive and institutionalizing them in mental asylums. Treating them as lunatics and not getting into their ideology. It’d be great if media didn’t pander to their grandiose self image. The media basically gives
        them exactly what they want. Notoriety.

        • TheNotoriousIUD

          Interesting, ive not heard of that phenomenon but I read an article yesterday that describes almost the same thing…

          http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/thresholds-of-violence

          • Tassiebush

            That was a very interesting read

        • Bill

          The Sheriff at the Umpquaa College killings took exactly that tactic, of not recognizing the shooter, and it worked. Then he got tangled up in past statements, but he set a benchmark in not recognizing the shooter’s identity.

          • Tassiebush

            Yes I remember being impressed to see that he’d taken that tack. It’s an important change. I hope it’s followed by others.

        • Tassiebush

          Just to add a point to that post I have used rather outdated terms “lunatics” and “mental asylums” which aren’t appropriate in a current context. Choice of wording was to match the era when the Running Amok trend I was referring to occurred.

      • mosinman

        well i think getting rid of gun free zones would be a good first step, considering this is where majority of the bloodiest mass shootings happen

        • TheNotoriousIUD

          Agreed, they are ridiculous.
          Like criminals give a sh-t.

          • mosinman

            yeah, and assigning an armed guard of some type would also help

      • Bill

        I’ll have to dig out my references, but it’s debatable whether mass killings are an epidemic. Calling them “mass shootings” leaves out the bombings, such as at Boston, and one of the first mass school killings was conducted by a disgruntled board member with dynamite in the 1920’s. Even Columbine was as much a bombing as a shooting: IEDs were used as distractors and salted through the school. Socially and legally we also seem to have issues conflating terrorism with crime, and vice versa, or does it even matter, except as a means of assessing how to prevent future incidents. Then there are the one-off outliers like suicidal airliner pilots deliberately crashing planes and killing hundreds.

        In my opinion, the 24-second news cycle, social media, and the normal American emotional “we gotta do something RIGHT NOW” without policy and practice driven by empirical research or consideration for unintended consequences can cause these incident to take on a almost mythic magnitude in our psyche. Americans don’t handle tragedy well -as a society we aren’t very resilient compared to nations like Israel, or even many in the Third World, where mass death and suffering is a daily occurrence from whatever means.

        Ultimately, I’ve never thought “more guns” is the answer, but I’m also convinced that “less guns” is not a solution. Some incidents have been stopped by armed citizens and LEOs, many others haven’t. Two many homicides are committed with “legal” guns that were available to people who used them for illegal purposes.

        The one caveat I’ll throw out there is that as soon as the rights of the mentally ill begin to be infringed because of scapegoating and witch hunts, we as gun owners need to make certain that we don’t contribute to it, and that we defend their rights as vigorously as we defend our own. Mental illness effects a huge portion of the population, services are frequently unavailable, it often isn’t recognized, and frankly, like more medical problems than we’d like to admit, it isn’t clear-cut with a “diagnosis” and a “cure.”

        • TheNotoriousIUD

          We can quibble over the definition of “epidemic” so lets say its enough to be considered a public health menace. If it wasnt cities wouldnt be making videos like this. (I live in Houston and I believe this actually came out over a year ago)

          Clearly the meat of the issue is how to keep guns out of the hands of the unstable without unduly infringing upon the rights of others. I dont know what the answer is but I do know that the “F YOU” attitude of the NRA isnt going to work forever. Hillary Clinton is going to be the next President. Just watch.

          How much do you think it will take for her to put her gun ban shoes on? Shell make Obama look like Reagan.

          • Bill

            I agree completely about the necessity to control access to firearms to the dangerously mentally ill. It’s just trying to identify who is actually dangerously mentally ill, and given the state of the art, that’s borderline impossible. An honest mental health professional will tell you that we can’t even decide on what’s “normal,” whch is why the idea of some sort of mental health screening for gun owners terrifies me. I’ve also watched the defunding and deconstruction of public mental health services to the point where currently the number one provider of mental health services to people at or below the poverty line is….jails and prisons. There is exactly 1 practicing psychiatrist in the county I live in.

            I’m not an NRA member, won’t drink their KoolAid, and I imagine they would not want a jack-booted thug in their organization anyway, even one who’s taught active killer response to every school district in his jurisdiction.

            We tend to respond disproportionately to problems. If we had the same response every time a person was killed by a drunk driver as we do to mass or spree killings, we’d have solved that problem long ago. But how many pro-gun, opposed-to-big-government/stop interfering in my life/statist nanny state types are the first to cry foul when a DUI checkpoint makes them 3 minutes late getting home? If I had a dime for every snide “papers please” reference I get during those details, I ‘d have a lot of dimes.

            Americans, particularly conservative gun owners, often forget that the Second Amendment is just that, an Amendment, that is preceded by a lot of language about the common good and a more perfect, not absolutely perfect, Union. They scream and yowl about “their” freedoms, while conveniently forgetting that they have responsibilities as members of that Union. This is America, where it’s culturally, socially and politically all about Me.

          • TheNotoriousIUD

            It’s a maddening paradox being unable to identify a problem until it happens.
            I have a lot of respect for law enforcement officials who actually take the time to look at root causes. I know your job isn’t easy. And I agree that we as gun owners have taken a me first attitude towards these issues as if we were the victims. We can’t afford to bury our heads and hope the problem will go away.

          • Bill

            It’s certainly maddening for the people on the front line – the police and mental health providers, On one hand we are both hamstrung by privacy laws. On the other hand, I personally don’t believe the government should have unfettered access to personal mental health records. and it’s such an inexact science, with the number of innocent people who are wrongly convicted of crimes after going through the entire criminal justice system, I have zero faith that we could identify a potentially dangerous person with sufficient accuracy to deprive them of Constitutional rights.

            And bluntly, there’s a return on investment issue. That video cost money to make. Would that money have been broadly more beneficial if it had been spent on domestic violence or DUI initiatives?

          • Ethan

            “If it wasnt cities wouldnt be making videos like this…”

            Respectfully, that’s a lousy substitute for real data. See my above post with the link.

            ” I dont know what the answer is but I do know that the “F YOU” attitude of the NRA isnt going to work forever.”

            Um.. that’s not the attitude of the NRA. They have offered several viable solutions (or at least improvements), which have each been struck down by anti-gun politicians.

            Again, I agree – we do need to do what we can. But you seem to have swallowed a good bit of propaganda judging by the statements you’ve made. The premise of a “national epidemic” is simply untrue.

            What IS true? Mass shootings scare people. They scare people in the same way spiders scare people.

            Can you be killed by a spider? Yes its possible.
            Are you likely to be killed by a spider? Not remotely.

          • TheNotoriousIUD

            Perception is reality in this case.
            If enough people get scared enough then we will lose our rights.
            Not to mention the fact that mass shootings BOTHER me personally. It sickens me that our country is kn own for that sh-t. And it pisses me off when I as a gun owner am lumped in with the crowd of crazies.

          • n0truscotsman

            Well, there is a reason why the NRA has that attitude, and it is not because it was conjured up overnight.

            http://thewriterinblack.blogspot.com/2014/09/nobody-wants-to-take-your-guns.html

            (a disqus commenter who I follow posted this. A very good read)

            If hildog continues with the anti-gun rhetoric, you can bet this sort of sentiment will continue.

        • Tassiebush

          Especially liking that last point about mental illness. Mass shootings are generally down to an unhealthy perspective. Not a mental illness.

      • Zebra Dun

        The number of gun owners and guns that do not kill are higher than the number that do kill.
        The ones that kill get all the media attention thus people make the wrong choices and assumptions.
        No, it is not going to be so bad I will curtail my rights to own a firearm just to allow criminals to be armed anyway.

        • TheNotoriousIUD

          Im not saying you should.
          Im saying that there could come a time with the right (or wrong) person in the White House and a tipping point of public opinion we could see our gun laws radically change.

      • n0truscotsman

        I think the argument between “freedom to arm” and “the greater good” is a false dichotomy.

        There are those that want us to think these are the only two choices, but there are more.

        The million dollar question to ask is, what measures proposed by the pro gun control side would curb massacres? And what would the unintended consequences be for such proposed measures? if they end up costing more lives than what were snuffed out by massacres over the past two decades, then that is what is called, “a non starter”.
        If we have to worry about a group’ taking our rights way’ then we have bigger problems than just guns. we would have a crisis of the efficacy of living in a republic.

  • USMC03Vet

    Translation: We DGAF. We’ll get there when we get there.

  • Ned Weatherby

    Wait – I believe I saw a properly posted “no guns allowed” sign. How can that happen in a gun-free zone?

    • wzrd1

      Yeah, we really need for the cops to come and shoot *everyone* with a gun, rather than the rare bad guy mass shooter.
      After all, shooting scenes are calm, orderly places with the good guys with guns wearing white hats and the bad guys wearing black hats, just so the cops can tell who is who.

    • JK

      Call maintenance. The sign is clearly malfunctioning.

    • USMC03Vet

      lol government response with firearms should be prosecuted in observance with the law.

      That is the only way things will change for the better.

  • Don Ward

    I noticed that no one waved their hands shouting “Weesa all gonna DIE!”

    • supergun

      lol

    • DaveGinOly

      Jar Jar hightailed it out of the building when he heard the first shot. He’s probably still running.

  • The American Crusader

    Run and find Annise Parker and use her as a human shield.

    • Thirst_quencheR

      She would talk the shooter to death

    • A big amen to that Crusader.

  • Pete Sheppard

    ‘Don’t engage an active shooter (they can shoot back)’. Ahem. They are ALREADY shooting. Remember that far fewer people die when CCWs engage the shooter, than when waiting for the police.

    • Bill

      Careful, those incident when that happens occur, but are rare. There’s plenty of blue-on-blue fratricide and collateral damage as it is. If you are confident you can fix it, by all means do so, but don’t contribute to the problem. There are plenty of cops who don’t have the skills needed for surgical pistol shooting needed in a hot environment.

      • rifflizard

        Why not??? Isn`t that what they SHOULD be trained for. This is why I`ve always said…” I don`t believe cops do even one bit of good ” Before you start ranting, and raving here`s my reasons.
        1. The Supreme court holds the position that the police are not legally obligated to protect anyone (unless of course they are rich or a politician).
        2. The police arrive long after the crime has been committed.
        3. The police pass judgment on you before they even speak to you, even if you are the reporting party. They`d rather arrest someone on a traffic warrant than look for, and apprehend a violent criminal.
        4. If they did arrive IN TIME to help, you may be the one shot.
        So, what good do the police do? I believe one can only make the situation WORSE by contacting the police. Get your CCW, keep it with you at ALL times gun free zone or not ( because the criminal will ) yea, yea I know, that makes you the criminal…big friggin` deal, I`d rather survive a shooting attempt than die in a MASS SHOOTING, and lastly TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN.
        Then pull it if you must (with confidence) or if you believe you should. If you have any doubts about your ability, you probably should not have a CCW!!!

        • Bill

          I know better than to rant and rave when confronted with your type of logic, but let’s get one thing factually straight: SCOTUS never ruled that the police aren’t obligated to protect anyone, another internet mythmeme; they ruled that the police don’t have an obligation to protect specific individuals. The obligation of the police is to attempt to protect everyone equally within the best of their ability – if they don’t it’s called dereliction of duty and misfeasance.

          • Vanns40

            That ruling was Warren vs DC for anyone who’s interested. The general phraseology, boiled down, is; the police have no obligation to protect the individual, only the public in general. This was, again generally, to preserve sovereign immunity.

          • rifflizard

            The “individual”, that says it all to me. I rest my case.

          • rifflizard

            Yea, keep telling yourself that. One thing is for sure, I`ve NEVER depended on ANYONE defending MY life but myself, and as I sit here and breath at 58 years old I know I am responsible for my life, always have been, and always will be. If you wish to trust your life in the hands of someone else who may or may NOT arrive before the crime has run it`s course, be my guest. Good luck pal, because that`s what it will come down to, at least in your case. In my case it will come down to training…period!

          • Bill

            You said that you rested your case – that means you’re supposed to shut up and sit down.
            …and I’m a 30 year cop, which means I’ve had, and conducted, somewhat more than 15 minutes of training…but put a sign out front of your house so that we know you’ll take care of it yourself and we can ignore whatever’s happening. Thanks, citizen.

          • Mark Wuori

            yep bill, that’s one of the poorest attitudes I’ve heard. And if you get yourself trapped by a criminal and a CC citizen happens by, what do you want him to do? Walk away? They just might if they know about your attitude.

          • Bill

            Somehow, someway, I’ll manage to struggle by without your approval or help.

  • st4

    Wonder if he’s related to Lance…

  • Zebra Dun

    In such a situation you will not know who is the shooter/shooters who is a plain clothes Police, who is just another CCW civilian also shooting back at the shooters.
    The odds of you accidentally shooting the wrong person are very high.
    The odds the Police, another CCW holder shooting back mistaking you for another active shooter are even higher. The chance you might have a stray round strike another civilan are too high to risk.
    Run, hide and don’t get involved unless your target is clear and you are saving your life or someone you know beyond a shadow of doubt is a victims life.
    Do Not Get involved and start shooting you will be mistaken for a bad guy, you will mistake a good guy for a bad guy and you may shoot someone you are trying to save accidentally.

    Don’t be a Hero.

    • Ebby123

      I strongly disagree.
      Taking action does not make you a “Hero”. It just makes you someone who cares about what’s at stake beyond yourself.

      If you are not comfortable taking action, *PLEASE DON’T*. But don’t assume the rest of us are as unequal to the task.

      Caution and good judgment will rule the day. That may mean running from the sound of gunfire, and it may mean running towards it. Everyone has to make that decision for themselves.

      • Zebra Dun

        Hero is the word, Just because you consider yourself in the right and the situation a legal means to shoot doesn’t make it right nor legal and when it all comes to a halt you may find out you are liable for a lot of legal action, by the owners of the place you shot up, the other victims who may feel you over reacted and placed them in danger and the very state, city and county laws which will hold you liable to legal action.
        A CCW and a weapon does not automatically make you a good guy in the eyes of the law and everyone else.
        Not in this day and time.
        But you go ahead and do what you feel you must.

        • El Mac

          Don’t forget your Depends. Perfect for those scary moments when you need to curl up and shat yourself if incapable of doing the right thing.

          • Zebra Dun

            Tough talk on a forum from across a keyboard and into a monitor is little more than smoke with as much substance.
            Rational logical thoughts are what is needed in the real world.
            One man’s right is another man’s wrong.
            One thing for sure, the law will be the ultimate decider in what you do.

          • El Mac

            No, the law is not the ultimate decider in what I do.

          • Zebra Dun

            Then you are an outlaw and no better than the active shooter.

          • El Mac

            Seriously? I choose to stand against an active shooter and somehow that makes the same as an active shooter? You’ve lost your marbles as well as your sack and spine. Go back to Romper Room sister.

          • Zebra Dun

            “No, the law is not the ultimate decider in what I do.”
            This was your comment was it not?
            This says the law will not decide what you will and will not do which means you are an outlaw or at least a scofflaw.
            I am not your sister.
            I am fully rational and obey the laws in my Nation, State, City and County.
            Name calling means you have lost the argument and have nothing else to add.

          • El Mac

            No, I am a free man able to make decisions regarding things that the law has absolutely no control over – until after the fact. The court may well judge my actions – after the fact. But misplaced fear of that will not invade my conscience while I am the man on the scene dealing with an AS.

          • Zebra Dun

            You are indeed a free man, free to do what ever you wish to do as long as you abide within the laws of this land.
            So go ahead do what you wish.
            Why argue the point with me.
            I don’t care what you do or do not do.
            It is just my opinion.
            It is nothing more than a simple comment made in an on line forum calling for rational, logical thoughts, a cool head and the legal and physical ramifications, dangers of getting involved in a gun fight in public.
            I am not emotionally upset with this discussion.
            I am not an expert, a gunfighter nor a professional hero.
            I am nothing more than what I claim to be, which is, a shovel operator, manure re locator and wheel barrow operator.

            I do not plan on, nor wish to shoot and kill anyone, perp, civilian, nor LEO.

          • El Mac

            Then go away for you have nothing of value to add to the conversation.

          • Zebra Dun

            yet you keep on with the same.
            Make me go away brave man.

          • El Mac

            I can’t make you go away anymore than I can remove your cowardice.

          • wzrd1

            What you confuse as cowardice is simple sanity and admitting a lack of a desire to engage in a firefight around unarmed civilians.
            I’ve served with people like you, yearning for action, then freezing when the firefight began or worse, firing wildly and never hitting the SOB’s we were engaged with.

            Lemme give you a hint, you’re not Marshal Dillon, you’re not John Wayne. Here, in the real world, we have laws that punish people who wildly engage and harm others. Here, in the real world, veterans know that they can’t predict what they’ll actually do when things go sideways.
            We don’t say flat out, “I’ll engage”, knowing that adrenaline will give us befuddled thoughts, tunnel vision and unnoticed shaking hands.

          • El Mac

            No, cowardice is what Zebra Dunn espouses. THAT is what I have a problem with. It’s the Leftist philosophy of “if it ain’t happening to me, it ain’t my problem.” I get that some are going to be stunned into inaction at least at first, I get that there will be massive dumps of adrenaline, I get that it might be confusing and hard to fathom at first…no problemo. But to consciously and willingly make the decision that, as a responsible American male citizen you are going to just simply walk away as if nothing is wrong when people are dying is cold hearted COWARDICE. And I would also add, that if the situation is presented, don’t be too surprised Mr. Dunn, that you might – might – just change your mind in the heat of the action. The only way to defeat evil when faced with it, is to deal with it. That is the only way AS is stopped. And despite the fact that Mr. Dunn is a professional wheel barrow operator, he might be surprised at what he has in him when the wolf shows up.

          • wzrd1

            Misplaced fear?
            OK, you engage and kill your target, who turns out to be another CCW responding.
            Now, you engage the next shooter, another CCW firing at another CCW.
            Eventually, you might engage and terminate the active shooter, more likely you’ll run out of ammunition and be either shot by police or in prison blowing Bubba.
            Whatever floats your boat, but if you tried that around me, you’d end up disabled, out of concern for my own safety.
            I have zero tolerance for John Wayne types in a life threatening emergency.

          • JRJ21

            Why,,,,we kill and capture MORE felons than the police and are safer at it than them?? God bless the John Wayne Americans of this world….National Institute of Justice report,Guns of America,,Cook and Ludwig,,1997

          • Now I’ve heard it all–LOL!

          • JRJ21

            National Institute of Justice Guns of America Cook and Ludwig,,1997 citizens killed 1557 felons to 606 for police,,,citizens had a 2 percent error rate,,,cops a 11 percent error rate.Your bigotry and prejudice against American gun owners is on a par with Klan hatred and bigotry.

          • That is the last thing you want to say to me. I’ll remove that BS part of the comment and forget about it. If you insult me like that again you’ll need to find another place to insult those you don’t even know.

          • JRJ21

            Ever hear of that other amendment ? Or is it just what you don.t want to hear that you protect?

          • “Now, you engage the next shooter, another CCW firing at another CCW.”

            When has that actually happened? We have had armed people running around this country since it was founded. When has your scenario *actually* come to pass and *how often*? In 200+ years, surely you can show examples of a bloodbath where a bunch of CCWs shoot at each other in an escalating free-for-all?

            In reality, the more likely scenario is the one @disqus_dP3XDSJsgl:disqus alludes to: the CCW freezes when they should fire or who (rightly or wrongly) believes they have no safe shot (e.g. the CCW at the Giffords shooting) and therefore holds off. Police and military training has been formulated to try to overcome that tendency basically forever. All things being equal, if the CCW is going to fail, that is the failure mode (freezing instead of going Rambo) that we prefer. We *want* the CCW to not fire unless they KNOW they know who the bad guy is and KNOW they have a good shot against a clean background— and when CCWs do engage, that is usually what happens.

          • El Mac

            Yet another excellent post!!! You nail it.

          • Ideally that’s what should happen——- good post

          • JRJ21

            “Self defense IS THE BASIS FOR ALL LAW,”,,Blackstone,Do you know who he was????

          • Something that hasn’t been talked about is can you or any CCW holder actually line the sights up on a person and pull the trigger? Do you know beyond a doubt you can take another life? You might be surprised how many people believe they can but when, heaven forbid, you have to do it a lot of people have found they can’t do it. No man or woman truly knows until that moment happens.
            This is not just my opinion I’ve seen it happen.

            When this subject of engaging anyone, active shooter or whatever, comes up I hear a lot of bravado. I hope those with such a positive attitude about engaging in a gun fight can keep that attitude and never be forced to make the decision to engage an armed person and find out what reality is really like.

            Believe me it’s not what you think it is. If you haven’t been there you just don’t, can’t know, what it’s really like. I hope none of you ever have to make that decision.

          • wzrd1

            True enough, Phil. I’ve seen soldiers freeze in combat. I’ve seen soldiers who have killed before suddenly freeze.
            Adrenaline raises merry hell with the body, the mind is fuddled, eyesight is tunnel visioned, hands are shaking unnoticed. Add in the stress of actually deciding to put lead into another human.

            I know one thing for certain, this combat veteran would still be loaded full of adrenaline in an active shooter situation, with or without a CCW on my person.

            What I’d do, I have no clue. It depends upon the situation, how much time I have to react and after, no matter what, I’ll likely need a change of clothing.

          • El Mac

            Exactly so. But what I do not hear you saying is something along the lines of: “I’m not going to do anything.” “I don’t care.” “Not my effing problem…” like Zebra Dunn was spewing. Big difference. No one that is human goes into or comes out of a shooting scared, heart pumping, adrenaline flowing….that’s all cool and normal. Turning your back on people dying an in need of immediate help is not cool and is not normal aka the Zebra Dunn method.

          • I couldn’t agree more—-good points across the board.

          • Vanns40

            As someone who has been in the field and now teaches, I tell my students if you’re in a car use that 3000 pound escape module and put your foot on the gas. If you can run, run. Only if there are absolutely no other choices go to gun. But understand that sometimes there are no good choices, you’re stuck with what you have and what you have may be wide open spaces and someone shooting at you from 35 feet away. Gunfights aren’t always closeup. Practice and take multiple tactical courses. Skip vacation and take a course. If you’re going to carry a gun know how to use it and that doesn’t mean shooting at paper targets.

          • El Mac

            I agree, I hope they don’t either. But I also hope that if they are faced with the situation, they release their inner hounds of hell on said AS.

      • Zebra Dun

        No, I am not comfortable shooting and killing people in public in a gunfight surrounded by perps, scared victims and adrenaline filled Police.

        Even bad guys.

        I am not an expert nor a hero and this ain’t no Hollywood movie.

        This is reality.

      • BambiB

        “Taking action does not make you a “Hero”. It just makes you someone who cares about what’s at stake beyond yourself.”

        Actually, in today’s society, that could be the DEFINITION of “hero”.

        There is no shortage of sheep. The hero is the one who decides to DO something.

    • nadnerbus

      I dunno, if you see a guy interrogating people as to their religion and then shooting them in the head, I think it’s pretty safe to assume they are the bad guy.

      • Zebra Dun

        As I stated, “Run, hide and don’t get involved unless your target is clear and you are
        saving your life or someone you know beyond a shadow of doubt is a
        victims life.”
        Before you take your gun and shoot someone you better be sure you are dead legally in the right.
        Otherwise the law will.
        We could recall George Zimmerman and consider what happened to him.

        • Bill

          That was because he’s a moron, which is an entirely different conversation.

          • Zebra Dun

            Oh He got involved with a suspected criminal was attacked and defended himself and he is a moron while a person who gets involved shooting at who he believes is an active shooter is not a moron?
            Do what you feel ya gotta do.
            I’ll pass.

          • Bill

            What he did to defend himself isn’t the problem. What he’s been doing since is. Every time he does the next dumb thing and winds up in the news, we gun owners and especially CCW holders look worse and worse. He was an accidental hero once, but since then he’s been the ten percent that gets us killed.

          • Zebra Dun

            If you get involved in a gunfight in public and shoot someone good or bad someone it will become your life.
            You will forever have to deal with it and as it did to Zimmerman it can ruin your life forever especially if you make the wrong decision and shoot the wrong person.

          • Nate Johnson

            Just lay back and enjoy the rape.

          • Zebra Dun

            What?
            I thought this was an active shooter scenario?
            Now it’s rape?

          • BambiB

            Well, Bill, let’s put YOU under the public microscope for a year – with your very life hanging in the balance. Then let’s surround you with people who hate you, who want to kill you, who might even try to kill you. Let’s make sure you can’t find a normal job. Let’s crank up the pressure on you until your personal relationships fall apart.

            Let’s see how YOU do in like circumstances.

          • Zebra Dun

            There it is.
            One simple bad decision can change your life forever.

          • Bill

            I’ve been to the wall, BambiB, and I know more about the complexities of lethal force encounters than you do. The incident didn’t turn me into a judgment impaired Gomer afterward. My impression of the guy is that he is the person you saw in the news afterward making one bad decision after another. I think the one right thing he did was luck as much as decision making, because he hasn’t made a good one since.

          • TheNotoriousIUD

            Unfortunately idiots like him are becoming the public face of gun owners in this country.

          • Bill

            Exactly.

          • mbrd

            absolutely right on that!

    • Chase Buchanan

      I think it would actually be pretty easy to tell. If you see someone with a gun, and they’re searching or assessing, but not shooting everyone in sight, that’s probably a plainclothes cop or an armed citizen. If you see a guy with a gun, and he’s shooting everyone he sees, that’s probably the shooter.

      • wzrd1

        Because these shooters don’t pick their targets randomly, they specifically target people, right?
        Oh wait, it’s usually random targets, letting others walk away.

      • Zebra Dun

        And then you draw your gun and start shooting that makes you a shooter, unknown and suspect then some CCW who is a man will stand up and do what he considers right and shoot you. A policeman will consider you a threat just holding a gun in this situation.
        You do what you want though I could care less.

        • El Mac

          Romper Room ZD.

        • Bill

          How much less could you care?

          • Zebra Dun

            Bubba I don’t care.
            It is not any of my business unless it becomes my personal business.
            Caring is an emotional feeling which combined with a weapon is dangerous.
            The shooter obviously cares about something enough to kill people in mass because of it.
            I don’t care what you do, go ahead shoot somebody as long as it’s not me or any of my loved ones I do not care.
            Now if it becomes me or my loved ones that is when I will begin to care enough.

          • Bill

            Oy. What I meant was that if one doesn’t care at all, then he COULDN’T care less. If he cares a little bit, then he COULD care less. Grammar is the difference between knowing your S*** and knowing you’re S***. If we’re all going to be taken seriously as adults, we can’t keep writing like we did in the second grade…

          • Zebra Dun

            My, you have become very emotional and I bet if you had a gun you would shoot me now wouldn’t you?
            As I said, it’s your call, go ahead shoot.
            I. Do. Not. Care.
            It is not my problem.

          • Bill

            Only if the gun shot maturity rounds. Thank you for making my point. Again.

          • Zebra Dun

            “Only if the gun shot maturity rounds. Thank you for making my point. Again.”
            What exactly does this comment mean?

          • Bill

            Oh man, this is just TOO easy! Stop it!

          • Zebra Dun

            I just asked, the comment makes very little sense.

          • Bill

            To you, maybe, which again…oh, screw it. I give up.

          • Zebra Dun

            No, don’t give up, you are making your stand on what you believe.
            I respect that I just disagree which is what discussion is all about.
            I am not your enemy.
            We like weapons we have this in common.
            I respect your opinion.

          • Bill

            Again, I’m not a Richard, apparently the software doesn’t like the word I used originally, and I’m actually pretty immature.

          • El Mac

            Wow. I bet your Dad is real proud. And your “loved ones”, such an example.

          • Zebra Dun

            Yes, my Dad was proud of me.
            As are my loved ones, Wife, son, grandson’s and Mom.
            I am proud if them and love them deeply.
            I am a normal human being with no desire to actively engage anyone in a public gun battle believing I am expert enough to distinguish between good guys and bad guys while spraying the public with bullets no matter how well intended to save the world.
            I am not emotionally distraught, cursing you, nor calling you names stating what your family thinks about you in an on line discussion.
            And you are, that makes me wonder about your gun carrying and thinking if you get involved in a shootout in public.
            You must make the decision to shoot and kill someone, good or bad on cold hard rational and logical thoughts. Not emotionally distraught.

          • El Mac

            So Spockian!!! No, I get it. I really do. You are just a modern day metrosexual male (notice I didn’t use the word “man” so as not to offend your sensitive nature). Trust me, I do not want you any where near a gun. It’s ok bro….you are hard wired the way you are. No apology is necessary.

        • JRJ21

          It’s true the sheep have trouble telling the sheepdog from the wolf;You are a sheep,scared of the wolf and the sheepdog.

          • Bill

            Oh God, not the sheepdog schtick, what a condescending, patronizing way to refer to the public I swore an oath to protect.

    • Nate Johnson

      Does it really matter if a cop kills me or if an “active shooter” kills me?

      Are the cops bullets extra painful or something?

      If a dude is coming into my place of work (where I can legally carry, which these bastards avoid like the plague) trying to kill me, I’d much rather die trying to stop the threat than die hiding in a corner because the cops “might mistake me for the shooter”.

      • Zebra Dun

        I’d rather not die or get locked up for shooting the wrong person.
        You go ahead and kill somebody Bubba see what happens.

        • El Mac

          Then it’s probably best for you not to get involved Zebra Dunce. If you cant distinguish between some one that is randomly executing innocent people and some one who is not, you should probably go back to squirt guns and nerf guns.

          • Zebra Dun

            In a heated gunbattle in public while under extreme stress and fear it may become impossible to tel what is going on around you.
            I am not an expert I am not a Psychologist nor a master tactician and No, I would not be able o tell who was randomly killing people and who was a CCW hero shooting back.
            Thank you, I don’t plan on getting involved in a shoot out in public.
            You go ahead though.
            It’s your call.

          • Nate Johnson

            No one is insisting that you do so.

          • Zebra Dun

            I won’t then.

          • El Mac

            I understand. Gunfighting ain’t for the weak of mind. Go back to Romper Room bro. You will feel warm and safe there.

          • Zebra Dun

            No gun fighting is for professionals.
            Not a civilian CCW carrying a weapon and thinking he is an expert and a professional.
            I do feel safe and warm.
            Thanks.

          • El Mac

            You are talking to a professional. And I’m telling you that it is far better for a civilian with a CCW and the mindset of “not here, not today” to engage the AS than to wait on professionals to beam in while the AS continues his killing spree unopposed. Clearly, you have never been on scene after one of these horrific events. Clearly you have never tracked through the blood of teenagers that dies at the hands of a Cho. Wait, I hear something…..you better answer that. That’s Hellary’s campaign calling you “axing” for another donation.

          • Zebra Dun

            So, you are saying you are a professional now in an on line forum.
            I am not a professional, an expert nor am I filled with what I think I am.
            You cannot prove what you say nor should you try.
            No LEO flashes his badge to make a point in an on line discussion to win an argument.The real deal doesn’t talk about it.

          • El Mac

            And you are a putz running your pie hole about something you know nothing about.

          • Zebra Dun

            Assume.
            Don’t make an assumption about people and things you do not know.
            It can make an Ass out of U and Me.

          • El Mac

            No, I know. Based on your very words, you clearly have no understanding of the issue. I’ll go a bit further than that and say that you are a complete ass based on your “I don’t care” bit.

          • Zebra Dun

            Name calling in an on line forum means you have lost the argument and the line of discussion.
            Who I am, what I have done and seen in my life is not the discussion nor is it an argument for what I believe nor will I use it to win a point.
            Why should I care if you shoot someone as long as it is not me or someone in my family.
            Caring is an emotion, Emotions and weapons are a dangerous combination.

          • El Mac

            Oh ZD, you are clearly such a philospher king!!! Please, tell us more…..

          • Zebra Dun

            Name calling, bullying over a keyboard and into a monitor is so brave.
            Is that enough for you brave man?

          • wzrd1

            What a professional! Proclaiming being a professional, ignoring a moderator’s questions as to the professional.
            Professional bullshitter.

          • Ok then I have to ask —what is your professional background?

          • Are you going to answer my question or not? What was or is your professional background. You really shouldn’t mind sharing that since it might give you some degree of believability.
            From what I’ve read so far I’m having a hard time buying that.

          • El Mac

            Oh, so I’m supposed to submit a bio before posting? Do tell me, what have I said that you are having a hard time buying?

          • No not at all but when a person claims to be a pro I have to ask what background they have that makes them a professional in these types of situations.

          • El Mac

            Ok…so, will you then answer my other question? “…what have I said that you are having a hard time buying?”

          • The implication is you are a professional in these matters. Tactics, training, experience etc.
            I have a hard time believing you have a professional background in these areas.

          • El Mac

            I have no knowledge of your website…do you have access to my email from my postings? If so, I’ll be glad to converse and provide my bio – in private.

          • Yes I do—-

          • I don’t want to ask all these details it’s none of my business to quiz someone. I’m not asking for a full bio just if you were in law enforcement, FBI, US Marshall service or something like that. That would give you a base of experience for the strong opinions on engaging an active shooter.

          • Bill

            But you’re making public statements. If you’re a cop you’re a public employee.

            C’mon, at least make the effort to lie, it’s the interweb.

          • El Mac

            I don’t lie bro.

          • Bill

            Put up or shut up.

          • El Mac

            Try taking your own advise.

          • Bill

            You don’t sound like a professional.

          • El Mac

            Thanks.

          • Please stop with the insults. Everyone has to follow their beliefs and understand their abilities.

          • TheNotoriousIUD

            Look out everybody Mall Team Six operational operator is going to save everyone.

          • BambiB

            You are clearly not an expert. Hell, you’re not even acceptably informed. In short, you’re the sort of dumbass who opines from ignorance and expects others to take you seriously.

            I’ll repeat for your edification the fact that police kill the WRONG person at crime scenes 6 to 8 times more often than do armed citizens.

            So, the best resolution of an active-shooter situation is for an armed citizen to take out the bad guy before the cops ever show up.

            Remember, when seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

          • Zebra Dun

            I never said I was an expert.
            Go ahead, shoot It is after all your decision.
            You are the one who will ultimately have to live with the results.
            My opinion is just that an opinion.
            I am not upset with your opinions and plans, I am not concerned that you will be shot by police, another CCW hero, the perp or if you shoot the wrong or right person accidentally or on purpose.
            You and others responding in kind to me, seek to argue and bully while calling names and making assumptions based on a simple opinion in an on line forum.
            You do not know me, nor where I have been or not been, what I have done or not done.
            I may be a dumb ass, I never claimed to be anything but a shoveling, manure re-locator and wheel barrow operator. But I am not planning on shooting and killing anyone.
            I deal with reality not hypothetical situations.
            I know my capabilities and I know who and what I am.
            I am not some puffed up poster filled with high self regard to my abilities and prowess and gleefully expounding on them.
            Unlike all of you responding I am not a professional gun fighter and self defense expert.
            Do as you wish.

          • BambiB

            Have you ever heard of a case where an armed citizen engaging a bad guy was shot in the process? I cannot recall a single such incident… probably because when an armed citizen gets involved, the shooting is over before the cops arrive.

          • Zebra Dun

            Most CCW holders do not get engaged in public gun fights because they know the Police cannot distinguish who is right or wrong.
            I would imagine there are cases and a Policeman will shoot you if he is seeing you waving a gun and shooting in an active shooter situation.

          • Why must insults be thrown when we disagree with each other? The answer is we don’t. I’d like to see discuss these situations without being so easily upset.
            Bottom line these types of situations can be confusing and difficult to decide the proper course of action. In some instances firing on the suspect would be correct but if things are very chaotic and you have doubts don’t risk shooting an innocent. Make sure of your target.

          • Bill

            Name calling is not a good trait for a would-be gunfighter.

          • El Mac

            Thick skin is advised for would-be gunfighters.

          • Bill

            You’ve pretty much demonstrated your lack of self control – it reminds me of a lot of the ranting I hear through the screen from the back seat.

          • El Mac

            Mr. Bill, I’m sure driving that taxi is stressful. Some resort to drink…I recommend a good PT program.

          • Bill

            You have and are neither.

          • El Mac

            …said Mr. Bill, again, still….

        • Nate Johnson

          You go ahead and die hiding in the corner because you’re afraid of a jury trial.

          I never insinuated that I would play Rambo. I simply pointed out the fallacy of “don’t shoot because the cops might get confused.”

          If I stop the guy and reholster and wait for the police, I won’t have a damn thing on my conscience.

          In Texas, I won’t face a jury trial (especially if he’s already killed or injured others and is trying to continue harming others).

          If I were to face a jury trial and lose, AT LEAST I WILL NOT BE DEAD.

          • Zebra Dun

            Go ahead.
            It’s your gun and your decision.

          • Nate Johnson

            I know.

        • Dukeblue91

          Then why even bother to carry a gun at all.

    • El Mac

      It’s not about being a hero dude. It’s about being a man and doing the right thing. Imagine that.

      • Zebra Dun

        A Man?
        Oh so it’s a manhood thing now.
        That will get you killed or locked up faster than you will know.
        The right thing?
        Go ahead, shoot somebody in this situation and watch how fast reality will bite you.

        • El Mac

          I just used “man” because that’s what I am. But it could be a woman. Either way, both have more sack than you clearly do. Go back to sucking your thumb and piddling in your diaper.

          • Zebra Dun

            Over sensitive and emotionally distraught on a forum and you want to get involved in a gun battle?

            Once you begin to call people names you have lost the argument.

          • El Mac

            Oh, look at you getting all sophisticated and high and mighty and all. Impressive. Feeling good in your dry Depends are you?

          • Zebra Dun

            Same name calling in place of rational discussion.
            Emotionally distraught and feeling righteous.
            As stated, go ahead shoot it is your decision.

          • El Mac

            Glad you are coming around.

          • Zebra Dun

            go ahead shoot it is your decision.

          • BambiB

            Could be… but probably not. Take another look at the video. The one thing they got right was the cowering crying women.

          • El Mac

            AS incident at New Life Church in Colorado Springs 2007. The AS was put down by a female volunteer security team member.

      • BambiB

        In today’s society, being a man (and not a feminized Nancy boy) is inherently heroic.
        Society has been pussified.

        The concept of “ordinary man” has been so dumbed-down, that yesteryear’s “ordinary man” is today’s hero.

        • El Mac

          You are exactly correct.

      • iksnilol

        Eh, being right isn’t worth it if you get killed or imprisoned for it.

        • El Mac

          Then go hide in the corner with your sister KD.

      • Vanns40

        Unless you’ve been in a serious “social” situation or an active shooter in a building situation you have absolutely no idea how chaotic it is. Since you speak with such authority I can only assume you have and I congratulate you on surviving the encounter. For the few times I’ve had a gun pointed at me where the person had the intent of killing me and the one time I had to chase an armed shooter through a hotel I have no problem telling you and everyone else they were the most terrifying events of my life and I wouldn’t mind a single bit if they hadn’t happened.

        If I were in a college situation, as a civilian, I would most likely not run into the fight unless it was extremely close and I had no other choice. Responding police will see anyone armed as an immediate threat and you’d better be prepared to deal with that AND the bad guy simultaneously, not an easy or enjoyable job. That said I am very much in favor of being armed on campus and being able to defend yourself.

        • El Mac

          @Vanns40, I never once said it would be easy. And anyone that says that, ain’t right in the head. That said, I do feel it is a responsibility ~ and maybe not all are up to that. I get that. I also get that our modern day society says it is not one’s responsibility. Sad, but I get it. I don’t agree with it, but I get it. Especially given today’s climate of “bend over and take it”. But, either way, one needs to be prepared to look at one’s mug in the mirror the next morning – especially if one had the means to stop an AS in the act.

          • Vanns40

            You can have an opinion and that’s fine but that’s all it is. The only people’s opinions that I give weight to are the ones I’ve worked beside and trained extensively with and have put my life in their hands. I was in law enforcement for years and then executive protection for 20 years after that.

            It’s easy to say what you “would do” until that very moment arrives. I can tell you without a moments hesitation that every fiber of me says DO NOT get involved….period. If the fight is confronting me and I have no alternative or if I must engage to immediately save another’s life I will, but, in the second scenario it will be with the thought “isn’t there someone else that can handle this?”.

            I’m not happy getting involved, I don’t want to. I prey the police or ANYONE else will step up. Not because I’m a coward, but just because I don’t want the ensuing mess that this going to become. I pretty much would like to be left alone and anyone who thinks differently is an idiot.

    • Oldtrader3

      Bad advice!!!!

      • Zebra Dun

        Advice good or bad is still advice. take it or not.

    • Bill

      Thanks, Hillary. Anything else?

      • El Mac

        LOL!! Spot on!

      • Zebra Dun

        Your welcome.

        • Bill

          It’s you’re, as in you’re not very good at this, are you?. Thank you for making my point.

          • Zebra Dun

            Now it’s grammar as an argument?
            You have lost the main area of the discussion.

    • Dan

      Shut up you have never been in a shooting or a fire fight .. You wait for the police and you will die .. COPs enforce the law. They have no obligation to protect .. The are ran by politicians ……

      • Zebra Dun

        USMC 1970-1974 Infantry field.

    • The_Quartermaster

      Oh you poor incapable lambie. Some are beyond you and ARE capable. Brave.

      • Zebra Dun

        Greetings Quartermaster second class.
        I am not a hero, expert nor do I claim to be brave.
        I was a Marine, I served in the infantry field for four years, I do know what reality is.
        I am capable, I do know my limits.
        I am not nor have I ever been a poor lambie.
        I deal with reality.

    • BambiB

      Actually, that’s pure bullshit.

      In FACT, police are 6 to 8 times more likely to shoot the WRONG person at the scene of a crime than are armed citizens.

      So if you can take out the active shooter before the trigger-happy morons show up, your odds of being shot go down substantially.

      • Zebra Dun

        Go ahead then, pull your gun out and start shooting.
        Be sure who you shoot, where your bullets go and be completely and fully legally right.
        I expect the Police will instantly see you waving your gun and shooting and know for a fact you are a good guy.
        I expect the people around you will applaud your actions and the addition of your gun fire to the event.
        I also expect your lawyer will appreciate your payments for his services in full and on time.
        The media will no doubt hoist you up in their news as the savior of the world.
        I await your actions with bated breath.

      • “…if you can take out the active shooter before the trigger-happy morons…”
        Well, a lot of the reason for that is that the ‘trigger happy morons’ show up after the fact whereas the CCW that engages is almost always there from te start and *knows* who the bad guy is. I am not an LEO but an emergency responder who is typically armed including tac med training. If I land in a situation not of my choice, one of the first things I will do is *tell dispatch* that an armed friendly is present, my condition and intentions (assuming I can safely do this around getting shot at, otherwise someone around me may already be calling 9-1-1 and they can convey it). Our policies are not to go from warm zone to hot zone without orders, but if I start in the hot zone or the hot zone comes to me (particularly threatens the wounded under my care) well that’s what the firearm is FOR. As I am not an LEO, my legal circumstances and options are not really different from any trained CCW. I’m going to do my job the best I can and once I have done what I can to prevent it, friendly fire is just a risk to be accepted: better than leaving people to bleed and die.

        • El Mac

          Excellent and thoughtful post!

      • LOL—sure I think not.

        • wzrd1

          It’s interesting how some proclaim LEO’s are trigger happy, while speaking how trigger happy that the speaker already is.

          Let’s face this in a reality based scenario.
          You’re in an office, at work or to conduct business. Shots ring out, the usual screams.
          Who is shooting? It could be an active shooter, for all you know, it could be SWAT responding to a terrorist.
          Everyone, save a few, assume that they’re magically in full knowledge of who is doing what, where and who is “the good guy with a gun” and who the bad guy is.
          Ready to engage anyone with a firearm, which could be an off duty LEO, plain clothes LEO, CCW holder responding and soon, a circular firing squad ensues.

          Personally, I’d guide those around me to a store room and wait by the door. If anyone armed opens it, then I’ll engage them close up and determine quickly if it’s the shooter or responder.
          I’ve retired from military running toward gunfire. I survived that, I’m happy to not go looking for trouble.
          For, there is one thing I’ve learned in my military career, exciting lives are marked by their brevity.

      • LOL and what genius came up with that statement?

    • Zebra Dun

      “Do what thy manhood bids the do, from none but self expect applause, he noblest lives and noblest dies who makes and keeps his self made laws.”
      >Sir Richard Francis Burton<

      So do what you feel ya gotta do.

      • wzrd1

        Wow! A philosopher Marine! 😉
        Somebody benefited from the GI Bill.

    • JRJ21

      You are assuming everyone is as dumb as You appear to be.Real men defend their civilization,sheep cower in corners.

      • Zebra Dun

        Real men.
        O. K. real man.
        Defend your civilization, I am not stopping you.
        Be sure you are right, be sure of your target, don’t kill anyone you should not kill.
        Be sure to be prepared to live with your decision.
        Be prepared to hire a lawyer, answer to the police and be darned sure you are dead right when you pull that trigger.
        Talk is cheap in an on line forum.
        There is bluster and bravado and then there is reality.
        I am saying real man, just be safe, sure and right.

        • JRJ21

          Armed citizens kill and capture more felons than the police,we are also thirty times safer with our weapons than the police.YOUR PREJUDICE TOWARDS US IS AS REVOLTING AS ALL PREJUDICE.

          • wzrd1

            OK, you made a claim that armed citizens kill and capture more felons than police.
            Time to provide a reliable citation for that claim.

          • JRJ21

            The hatred dripping off of your anti gun anti self defense tongue is staggering,,,,your conditioning is a hard shell to break through,,THE FBI UNIFORM CRIME STATS,,JOHN LOTT’S BOOKS,”MORE GUNS LESS CRIME” OR “THE BIAS AGAINST GUNS.” There are millions of us carry citizens and the violent crime rate has been cut in half in the last twenty years since concealed carry came in …England has FIVE TIMES the violent crime rate of America…Can you grasp that all crime starts at the one on one level against citizens and not criminal against cop first?WE ARE THE FIRST RESPONDERS,,,AT THE FOREFRONT TAKING THE INITIAL BRUTAL ATTACKS FROM THE THUGS.THEN THE COPS SHOW UP TO DRAW OUTLINES AROUND THE BODIES,,,,,YOUR ‘ body,,, IF YOU ARE A SHEEPLE AND THE THUGS IF YOU ARE MAN ENOUGH TO DEFEND YOUR CIVILIZATION.

          • Bill

            You realize that John Lott had some “issues” with his books, don’t you?

          • JRJ21

            Lott’s books have all been peer reviewed and found totally accurate and legit.Don’t attack what you can’t disprove.

          • Bill

            He reviewed them himself- that was proven like a decade ago.

          • JRJ21

            No one can peer review his own work, THATS WHY IT’S CALLED PEER REVIEW How long have you been in this coma?

          • Bill

            Uh, guy, you can’t review your own work. You need to do a little more research on your research. There’s this thing called “academic fraud…”

          • JRJ21

            Lott crunched his own numbers a lot. 29 peer reviews. 18 agreed ccw reduced crime 10 found no change. One found more aggr.assault. that turned out to be a liberal professors opinion with no investigation on his part. Swish. Game over

          • Bill

            So why did he post reviews of his work under assumed names? Enjoy your Kool-Aid. And by “crunched” I think you mean cherry picked or fabricated.

          • JRJ21

            Peer reviewed research that proves that MORE GUNS EQUAL LESS CRIME is you liberals worst nightmare.YOUR KOOL AID IS THAT YOU BELIEVE THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD HAVE ALL THE GUNS,,,,,THAT IS CALLED A POLICE STATE .

          • Bill

            And I said that Lott is an academic fraud. I’m confident that your comprehension of statistics and research methodology equals that of your ability to write in a coherent fashion. So there.

            You’ll never hear me use the word “swish” twice in a conversation.

          • JRJ21

            Here’s another,,,National Institute of Justice ,, Guns In America report,,,Citizens kill 1557 felons in 1997,, cops kill 606,,,citizens error rate was two percent,,cops was eleven percent,,FIVE TIMES AS HIGH. The rate is higher now that MORE GUNS ARE IN CITIZEN HANDS.,,WHERE THEY BELONG.

          • There’s no such study. Anyone can play with numbers and allege they say this or that. Its just not a true statement.

    • John Cheek

      “Don’t be a Hero.”……what a great theam for America today. Be a cowering, panty wetter and wait for someone else to save your sniveling ass.

  • Ebby123

    “Run if you can”
    “Hide if you can’t”
    “Fashion improvised weapons if you have to..”

    How about “Carefully fire 3-4 rounds into the back of the crazy man holding the rifle. Repeat until he stops moving.”

    I appreciate that this video was not made with the CCW crowd in mind, but it makes my blood boil when going the official plan is “well, wrap your belt around your hand and try to punch the man holding the gun!”.

    • wzrd1

      Firing into the guy’s back, after he cleared his path. Which are you, the Flash or Superman?

    • JK

      Be wary of suspecting only the guy with the rifle, shooting everyone in sight. Recently, some of these scumbags have returned to using handguns.

  • survivor50

    Houston is run by a big fat ugly lesbian who wants all bathrooms opened to LGBT transgender illegal aliens, so they can legally molest your children…I’m shocked this video slipped passed her.
    Annise Parker…AKA : Liquorice Porker… see what happens when you have “Non Party Elections”???

    • wzrd1

      So, you oppose equality and open elections, the Constitution be damned, huh?
      As you are opposed to the choice of mayor made by the populace of Houston, you are perfectly free to stay away from the city.

      BTW, whatinthehell is an “LGBT transgender illegal alien”? Illegals can’t afford to change gender, as crop picking and landscaping doesn’t pay that well and has no benefits.

      • BambiB

        Ah, but they get that benefit as soon as they’re captured committing a serious crime. Go to prison – get a state-paid-for sex change operation.

        • wzrd1

          Reality and you are complete strangers.
          Manning, who you are referring to, is receiving hormone therapy, cheap steroid drugs. Big deal.
          Homophobes are usually closeted individuals.

          • Bill

            And NO ONE rates the prison medical care system very highly.

    • TheNotoriousIUD

      You’re an idiot.

  • supergun

    The article is a little strange coming from Texas? If I have my weapon on me, and there is a lunatic walking around murdering Mothers, Fathers, or children,,,,am I to run and hide and let him murder innocent people. What has this Country come to.? This is imbelcele philosophy.

  • Dan

    This plan is for the non combatants … Some may die trying to save other….it your choice .. You enter a building that say gun free zone .. You put your life at risk… Be prepared

  • Zebra Dun

    There are a lot of people who need to study the legal ramifications of engaging anyone good or bad with deadly weapons in public.
    If you shoot the wrong person, if you shoot the bad guy, if the police see you with a gun in this situation things may not end up the way you expect it to end.
    Be careful, be safe and for Christ sake think rationally and logically in cold blood before you engage in a shoot out in public.

  • BambiB

    … or you could just draw your own firearm and shoot the aggressor.

    Oh wait. You were disarmed by your company/government, right?

    Okay – rack up the body count and hope you’re not one.

    I’d like to see the video redone with everyone in the lobby pulling their own handgun and shooting the aggressor after he fires the first shot.

  • El Mac

    Nevermind.

    • Zebra Dun

      Disqus profile Page not found (404)
      That about says it all doesn’t it?

  • Core

    I worked at a government office and we adopted the federal protocols for an active shooter and I can tell you it’s extremely ill conceived. The protocol is a death sentence. For a while the conservative elements of the state were pushing for state workers with training and concealed permits to be allowed to carry on duty even in the capital. I think the capital passed. I would feel safer with a gun in my pocket or hip, for the unlikely event an active shooter occurs. But in reality these shootings occur with less likelihood than cancer or getting hit by a drunk driver. I have an extensive military security background and I’ve had training and real world experience dealing with trained militant forces. I can say having armed security is the only answer, and we would be better off having an unknown number of responsibility armed citizens with good training working among us. The liberal logic argues against this but it’s fundamentally flawed. An untrained psychotic individual wielding a gun is one thing but a trained paramilitary type is another. The reality is that the government should not have the right to tell workers that we cannot defend our lives. So when I see videos like this I think it requires more discussion and a forum for arming staff. The government is not willing or able to protect us from the mentally ill as they continually release them back into the general population and cut funding for the treatment and housing of dangerous and mentally ill people.

  • Cave quid dicis

    Run towards the sound of the gunfire, utilize available cover and concealment, and open fire from your concealed position?

  • TheNotoriousIUD

    This needs to be deleted. Now.

  • GenEarly

    Unarmed “Security” Guards are just bell hops in less fancy uniforms.

  • Bill

    I may have misunderstood your original post and the phrase “every town. I’m used to the police being accused of cooking the books to make crime appear low for the Chamber of commerce or when the Chiefs contract is up for renegotiation, or high when the police union is up for renegotiation or the Chief wants a bigger budget. Add in programs like COMPSTAT where police performance is measured against crime rates and there are guys wh might try to fudge the figures.

    As far as I’m concerned, and I’ll be the first to admit that they aren’t problem-free, the definitions and stats from the Dept of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics and National Criminal Justice Reference Service are the gold standards. There are competent researchers at some state and local agencies and academic institutions. But I wouldn’t accept figures from ANY other source without some serious study.

    I also don’t accept the term “gun violence,” unless we also adopt “fist violence” “Phillips screwdriver violence” and “rock violence, and any other instrument used to commit violence. Dead is dead, regardless if a person is shot, stabbed, or garroted.

    • Marcus D.

      I was specifically referring to “Everytown for Gun Safety”, the newest umbrella organization founded by anti-gun billionaire Michael Bloomberg. Everytown is the successor to Mayors Against Gun Violence (MAIG) [which has largely disappeared] and also owns Moms Demand Action and the publication “The Trace,” which although touting itself as a resource for journalists, is nothing but a mouthpiece for anti-gun screeds and propaganda/misinformation campaigns (as anyone who reads an issue can attest). Mr. Bloomberg (who is so trusting of his fellow citizens that he hired his entire twelve man NYPD security detail when he left office and thus has around the clock armed security) has pledged $50 million to promote his anti-gun agenda. Everytown recently spent a large sum of money (I don’t remember how much) running pro gun control advertising for the purpose of influencing the vote in the recent Virginia election cycle (an effort that completely failed). Mrs. Clinton’s “plan” to reduce “gun violence” is borrowed from sources associated with Mr. Bloomberg. There are numerous credible sources that have debunked the statistics touted by Everytown and its subsidiaries as well as by CAGV and Bradley.

      • Bill

        Thanks for clearing me up! I was not aware of the organization and will have to do my due diligence.

  • El Mac

    You just said: “I’ll do my best…” And that sir, is all I would ask of anyone. THAT is commendable. Thank you.

    • iksnilol

      But that isn’t being a hero, at least not in my opinion. Isn’t a hero something like a smoke diver or something? Not a half decent shot with a nine?

      • El Mac

        I never once used the term “hero”. In fact, I’ve said “It ain’t about being a hero…” So again, we are in agreement.

        • iksnilol

          Ah, I must’ve misread. Despite not drinking/drugging I still feel far from sober.

  • El Mac

    More like a professional exposer of leftist/statist modern day thought and bullshit.

    • Bill

      …and bereft of knowledge of responding to an active killer.

      • El Mac

        …said Mr. Bill.

        • Bill

          Owwww, the burning, make it stop…..

          • El Mac

            Aloe bro…

  • Will

    Bravado! It’s a beautiful thing. Sniff, sniff….
    Sadly it ain’t worth crap without professional and repeated training.
    Never forget there is a huge difference between training and target practice.
    What ever happens just remember your main job is to survive. If that means running away like a scared rabbit DO IT!

  • Zebra Dun

    I would like to take this moment to thank all the veterans of the United States Armed forces for their service and sacrifice and to welcome each personally home and offer a job well done.
    I would also like to say thank you to all my fellow Vietnam Veterans especially for your service and sacrifice during a very troubling tough and trying time and give a firm welcome home .
    I would like to wish the United States Marine Corps Happy Birthday and say to all my fellow Marines…OOHHHRRRaaaa Semper Fidelis.
    We few, we happy few.

  • “But, I will be realistic and admit there’s a realistic chance of the following happening in an active shooter thingy…”

    Abso-flipping-lutely! But here’s the thing: if you are unlucky enough to be in that situation— and I know what a school shooting is like in much more detail than anyone should know— things have *already* gone pear-shaped. The question is not whether you can respond perfectly, because *no one* will, but can you respond well enough to not make things *worse* than they already are? The shooter started the situation; you weren’t given any choice in that matter. The choice you have, as you say, is just to ‘do your best’ with the rotten deal you were handed….

    But it is much easier to ‘do your best’ with some training and the time to get training is before you need it. This conversation is focused on defense, and that is a good thing to get some training in, but there is also first aid and communications. In my school, it was THREE HOURS between the time the shooting started and the time that paramedics got to some of the wounded even though I, among others, was on the phone with dispatch within maybe a minute. Response times for AS have mostly gotten better in 20 years, but you still may be on your own for what will seem like eternity, and I have been at car accidents in bad weather, no Life Flight operating, where you can also spend an eternity trying to hold someone’s blood in their body or keeping them breathing before the paramedics get there. It’s *good* to have some idea what you are doing.

    OK, so maybe you have some first aid skills. Someone near you gets shot. You keep your cool and slap a pressure bandage on, manage their airway, and maybe they have a chance. Now, how do you keep the shooter from simply putting another bullet in the victim (or you)? That is where the defense training comes in. All the band-aids in the world don’t do any good if the threat is still *active*. That requires (realistically) a gun, some tactical knowledge, and some prayers.

    • iksnilol

      Keeping people alive I know, though I don’t carry a gun (due to legal reasons).

      What shooting were you in? What insight can you give us? I mean, you experienced that stuff so by default you know better than us “armchair generals”.

      • The shooting was in 1992 at Simons’ Rock College of Bard (Now Simons Rock at Bard College). It’s coming up on 23 years now. It’s one of the things that pushed me to research school shootings over the intervening time, got me involved in emergency response, and is part of the reason I helped found the Sheriff’s Auxiliary here (armed non-peace-officer volunteers, one of very few such programs in the country). At the time, I was just a student and laid up on crutches from a stupid accident in the ice and snow a couple of nights before. I knew the shooter rather closely and had roomed with him the previous year. God, where do you start?
        That night, the security guard, Theresa Beavers, was the only one on duty. Everybody loved her— people say that, but in her case it was true. The shooter started at the guard shack and filled it full of holes with an AK-S. She was hit 9 times if I remember correctly and taken out of the picture. She was on the phone with her husband at that moment and given that he immediately called 9-1-1, that probably saved her life.
        From there the shooter traversed lower campus shooting as he went. He shot a professor driving back on campus to grade some papers and killed him. He then shot a student who came out of the library to help, someone I knew— very small campus, so we all knew each other— and he bled to death over the course of the evening. Then he walked into the area where three of the dorms came together and opened up there, firing into the hallways and atrium. Three students were wounded. Would have been much worse except it was a brand new gun which had been packed in cosmoline which he had not properly cleaned and he installed an after-market box magazine and adapter which repeatedly malfunctioned. There were unused rounds found in the snow all over his path where he had apparently kept trying to clear the jams. I know several students that he had pointed the gun at when it went —click—. Eventually he ended up surrendering after he was not able to even kill himself with the gun.
        What with one thing and another, even though 9-1-1 calls were made very quickly— one of them mine because I was also on the phone with my girfriend when the shooting started at her dorm, hearing it through the phone and echoing through the open window— the paramedics did not reach some of the wounded for over three hours. One of the students who I knew quite well had been shot three times and dragged himself down the hall to the RD’s apartment. We were on the phone with another friend who had seen him go down and was locked in his room under his bed, ashamed that he could not go to help(*). Because we were locked down, we spent a lot of that night on the phone, going down the list and figuring out who was all right and who was missing. Then we spent the rest of the night finding places to put students because of the dorms that were closed as crime scenes. We had about twenty in our apartment that normally held the four of us. That’s probably the first lesson I try to get across to people: we spent a lot of time that night on our own, trying to make the best of what we could, trying to make sense of what was happening. That is why I push First Aid for *everyone* and community training like CERT.
        Another thing that can be taken away is that no one stopped him. With the (unarmed) security out of the picture, the people who were supposed to stop him never had a chance. But even with his gun malfunctioning, him standing there trying to clear the jams, he was unopposed— and that is how we were taught. I am a VERY big supporter of ALICE training or Run-Hide-Fight. I have sat in on some of those trainings and they are saying the right things.
        I knew the shooter. I did not know what he was going to do, but as soon as I heard the gunfire and heard his voice, I KNEW what was happening. People often do have some indication it is going to happen, we know that *something* is wrong, but we ‘normal’ people simply don’t and *can’t* understand the way a violent psychopath works without direct experience. Like the Columbine shooter… Kleibold… they are manipulative, lie effortlessly, and pull other people into their schemes. I could write a book on just that, and other people have (Cullen, “Columbine” is a good start).
        Probably the biggest thing: it doesn’t just end. It lasted several hours and the “active” part a good bit less, but it tore the community apart for the rest of my time there, lead to many *stupid* responses, a lot of dysfunction. I’ve done whole talks on *just* that. Then the healing starts and that takes years. For some others, the healing never seems to have happened at all. But I will say that most of the people doing crazy things “for the survivors and their families” are not. They DO NOT speak for us. We each of us can speak for ourselves.
        (*) The student under the bed deserves his own post and I have to think about that carefully, especially in the context of ‘cowardice’ being raised in this thread. I do NOT and have never thought that of him and know he beat himself up over it. But between him not helping (and living) and Galen going to help and *not living*, there are things that plug into what we are talking about here.

        • El Mac

          Excellent post.

  • I found your post to have slurs and other language not suitable making your point. It was delete it or edit it. I edited it.

  • Lyle

    Act like a heard animal; wait for (cough) “the authorities”. They’ll be sure to clean up your dead, mangled body real well, and fill out a nice, very detailed report, so don’t worry.

    No, Young Grasshopper; the most effective response to violence is an immediate and overwhelming counterattack. The reason so many of these mass shootings occur is that we’ve been trained not to respond. The bad guys know that. They don’t anticipate resistance. They know they’ll have fish in a barrel, especially in “gun free” zones, and they know the media will give them a great deal of special attention afterward.

    We should have learned our lesson after 9/11. For a moment I almost thought we did. But that’s the United States of America now, as “the authorities” would have it; fish in a barrel. “Don’t fight back until your co workers are dead and you’re one of the last helpless, disarmed sheep remaining, but be sure and call and ask some desk flunky for permission first.” — Lyle

  • Bill

    Ok, you didn’t pass the civil service exam did you?

    • El Mac

      Ok, you didn’t pass junior high did you?

      • Bill

        A Masters’ degree in psychology, which comes in real handy around guys like you.

        • El Mac

          As Darth Vader would say: “Impressive.”

  • “…there are an average of two blue-on-blue fratricide cases a year in the U.S…”

    Absolutely, and that hours up if you add mistaken shootings of civilians as in the Dorner manhunt, but that is LPOs. What about CCWs shooting each other and out escalating? Simple mistaken shootings by citizens happen, such as the gal who made national news when she shot her husband by mistake thinking he was an intruder. But we know that happens statistically ( both in absolute and relative terms LESS than with LPOs. As taught in our weapon retention class, citizens lose their weapons to assailants a *fraction* as often as LPOs.

    But escalating fratricide among citizens responding to a shooting? I am sure it has happened *somewhere* but I cannot find any such example. But I would argue that in most AS/HE it would not even matter if it did. Raw pragmatism: If a shooter has sufficient ammo and unfettered access to a crowd, are 4 CCWs shooting each other in a once-in-200 years worst-case scenario really going to make it *worse*? What damage could an armed teacher at a Columbine event do EVEN IF they screwed up?

    • Bill

      Citizens loose their weapons less often in fights with bad guys because they are in fewer fights with bad guys. Police shoot more people in error than CCW carriers because the police have more opportunity to shoot people in error. Apples and tangelos.

      • “…with bad guys because they are in fewer fights with bad guys…”

        Agreed. And why are LPOs involved in more fights with bad guys than armed citizens even though there are more armed citizens? Because the *job* of the officer is to go into the situation even when they have no idea how it started or who the bad guy even is. The CCW who engages was generally there from the start and had the choice to NOT engage if they had any doubts and any other alternative. So the fact that it is an apples and oranges comparison is actually exactly the point.
        Again CCWs exibit a natural reticence to engage. That is a *good* thing and you do not want to train that out of them as police and military training must do. But nor do you want to discourage carry or response when it is appropriate. Designing an organization and training program for armed non-peace officer volunteers had to confront those issues head on. We do not want to just ape LE or military training, and for those of us who come from an LE or military background, there is un-learning to do. Many of the citizen’s firearm academies have been dealing with these issues for years. Having sat LE Academy classes related to my duties, the civilian academies tend to do a better job with the legal issues than the LE Trainers: non-LPOs are not entitled to mistake-of-fact in a court the way an LPO is.

  • Secundius

    This Oddly sound’s like a Scenario, on the “Heels” of the 1 August 1966 University of Texas Clock Tower Sniper Shooting Incident. By Charles Whitman, who Killed 14 and Wounded 32 in a 1-1/2-Hour Stand-Off before being killed himself by a “Forgotten” Texas Trooper…

  • Drake_Burrwood

    The question for the concealed carrier is “are you willing to save your life at the price of multiple others?”. The answer will guide you in whether to draw your firearm.