4 Guns We Don’t Like (Featuring Ian McCollum and Nathaniel F.)

There are some firearms that for one reason or another you just won’t like. In this installment of TFB TV, four writers get together to air their grievances with some firearms that most people generally regard as being good.

Thanks to our sponsors Ventura Munitions and Grizzly Targets.

The full transcript of the video ….

– Hey guys, it’s Alex and Patrick with another TFB TV video.

Today we’ve got some special guests on the program, that’s gonna be Ian McCollum on my right from Forgotten Weapons and InRange TV, and Nathaniel F on my far left, from thefirearmblog.com, one of our great writers that produces some really great content for the website.

Anyways, since we have these guys here, we thought we might do a video that kindly might rub some people the wrong way, but we thought might be an interesting topic of discussion.

– Yeah, something a little bit different.

– Something a little bit different, and that’s gonna be, we all picked a gun that is generally regarded as a well made good gun, that we don’t particularly like for one reason or another.

We all picked one and we’re gonna go down the list and explain why we don’t really care for that particular firearm, and if it’s OK with you Ian, I’d like to start with you.

– Sure, you bet.

I’ll piss off lots of people to start off.

(laughs) The one gun that really jumps out at me is something that most people like that I just (sighs) don’t.

It’s the HK91.

I think, to me, I don’t like the length of pole, I don’t like the handling, it feels really long, bulky, heavy to me.

I think the triggers pretty much always suck.

I don’t really like the safety, I can’t operate it very well.

Of course, I’m left handed and HK put the charging handle on the 91 and many of their guns, way out here up on the front, and it’s awkward to get to and I don’t like it.

And for some reason, I don’t dislike 308 self-loading rifles.

I have a little tanker M1 that’s just fantastic to shoot, but I’ll tell ya what, that HK, just the recoil feels really harsh.

It’s not pleasant to shoot, I don’t like it, I don’t enjoy it.

I’ve shot enough of them now that if someone, you know, comes up with one, they’re like, “Hey! You wanna shoot this HK91?” I just go, “No, no, I really don’t.” (chuckles) And ya know, it’s funny because I can totally appreciate the history of the gun.

I love the mechanics of the gun.

The roller lock mechanism is brilliant and really interesting and cool.

MP5s are fine guns to shoot.

And HK33s are not that bad, just that 91, man.

It seems to me that every single bit of it is just kinda blah.

– That’s an interesting choice, and I can understand for a left-handed person that being a very fair assessment especially.

– I can almost feel the anger being directed at you, Alex.

(laughing) – Oh Alex, and I’m sure for everyone out there who loves HK, there’s lots of you and– – Well, you don’t gotta like everything they make.

Lord knows I don’t.

They make some good products, some products I don’t– – Well, that’s the other thing.

There’s nothing bad about the build of HK91.

It’s a very well-made rifle.

Just don’t like it. – Fair enough, fair enough.

Nathaniel, since you’re also our guest, why don’t you explain your choice.

– The firearm that immediately jumped out to me was the Kel-Tec KSG.

Kel-Tec’s reputation for having shoddy quality control aside, the KSG, while kind of an innovative idea, I feel like its purpose is, it’s sort of schizophrenic in it’s purpose, like trying to take a shot gun and turn it into something that shotguns aren’t necessarily as good at, but that carbines might be better at.

And then it’s, I just don’t think it’s safe.

I’ve shot a lot of pump-action shot guns, I’ve shot KSG about twice, and the back-forward pump-action combined with the lack of any soft of hand stop that’s intervaled with a hand guard or anything like that, I just don’t think that’s a good idea.

– You know, safety’s a very valid reason to not like a firearm.

If you don’t feel safe shooting that firearm, then don’t take a chance, I mean, that’s always the safe bet, no pun intended.

– I can see what Kel-Tec was going for.

– Yeah. – Had it been executed a little bit more safety-minded maybe.

– Yeah.

– You know, a couple of changes, it could’ve been a pretty darn good gun, I think.

– Yeah, I think if they had molded in some kind of hand stop– – It’s not hard to put a hand stop on.

– Now if it had been semi-auto or something– – That’s another thing, maybe some KSG owners can tell us what you’ve done to hopefully avoid that, maybe put your mind at ease, I’d like to know that, having very limited amount of experience on it.

– Right, I mean, something even as simple– – Pro tip, pro tip, shooting your fingers off ruins your day. – I would imagine that.

– I’ve heard that too.

– But Patrick, how ’bout yourself? – Oh, I’m gonna have to go with the HS2000, or the Springfield XD, the classic XDs.

Every time I shoot one, I am a handgun guy, I like ’em a lot.

I may not be a very good shot with one, but I do enjoy them.

Every time I shoot one, I never come away from the range with a smile on my face.

They’re just kinda blah.

There’s some really funky characteristics about it, like the slide’s very chunky, it’s very large.

And I think it contributes to the perceived recoil of the firearm.

It’s just kinda eh.

Like, I understand what they were going for.

I like glocks, like M&Ps.

I even like the Ruger SR-Series and– – There’s a certain something you can’t quite put your finger on that you can’t assimilate to the XD2? – There’s definitely something about just that kinda x-factor of a gun that sometimes they’re just a lot of fun, even if they’re crappy, low end guns, they’re something that’s just a lot of fun to shoot.

And there are just some guns that just utterly fail to have that.

– Right, and you know, another factor that’s kinda funny is SNF Valley do a lot of transfers and a lot of people say, “Well, I bought the Springfield “over the Glock because I like my handguns “made in America.” – Fail. (laughs) – And you have to kindly point out, “Well sir did you know it’s got Made in Croatia on the top?” “No, this is Springfield.

“Springfield’s a good old American brand.” – Yeah, all right.

– And those of you that don’t know, it’s actually a Croatian pistol.

It was branded as the HS2000 originally.

Springfield found it, made a few changes to it, and then sold it in America.

– Yeah, and we’ve tested ’em.

You don’t hate them, you’re just kinda like– – No, I don’t, I don’t hate them.

I just don’t like them. – Right.

– If I were to hand you one and go, “Hey, you wanna shoot my new XD?” – I would probably do it because I don’t turn down shooting things generally. – Right.

– But I– – You take the ammo out and shoot it in something else? – Probably. (laughing) No, I mean, I would shoot it, and you know, I’d probably not really enjoy it that much.

It’s just something about how it was designed, how it was built, and how it was marketed.

It was marketed as a direct competitor to the Glock, and, you know, the M&P style of pistol.

And, I don’t think it really was the pistol to go ahead and compete directly with them.

– OK. – Fair enough, fair enough.

Well, I guess it’s my turn. – Yeah.

– Yeah. – Who do you wanna piss off? – Golly.

– OK, prepare yourself, Internet.

– Yeah well, this isn’t gonna be that controversial, I don’t think so, but so anyways, I bought into the hype train when all the DeVore was comin’ in because I’d heard the guys in Canada singin’ the praises of the rifle, and I could not wait to get my hands on one.

They look awesome.

Nathaniel, you have an interesting bit of trivia on this gun actually that I found pretty interesting.

– Yeah, actually, one of the little facts about it is that the aesthetics were designed before the internals, they sort of put internals into this outline that they had drawn up.

– You know, from a design perspective, it seems kinda– – Backwards? – Yeah. (laughing) To design a gun’s aesthetics before you design anything else, and– – Does look good though.

– It’s not a cosmetic, but– – No, it is a very sexy rifle.

– Well, it’s a cool looking gun, and that’s part of the reason I was like, “Wow, that’s somethin’ else, it’s very space age looking.” – And it’s Israeli. – It’s Israeli.

– Pretty much anything Israelis make is really pretty impressive.

– Absolutely. – I’ll agree with that.

– I’ve got a Galil ARM, it’s a fantastic rifle.

I’ve got some of the pistols, the Jericho and stuff like that.

Love ’em, and the Uzis, probably one of my all-time favorite sub-machine guns, so I was like, “How could they go wrong?” A DeVore, that’s gonna be a home run, and I saw the YouTube guys sayin’ like, “Oh I really like it.” And for those guys, maybe it really works well.

But for me, I found it rear heavy and awkward.

I don’t like how the safety selector doesn’t really have a positive click whenever you go from safe to fire.

And, things like, you can’t change the barrel like you can on an AUG, and the AUG is actually priced at the same price point, really irked me, if you want a left-handed bolt installed, you have to ship the rifle off to get it installed which, Ian you’re left-handed, if I handed my right-handed DeVore to you, you’d have trouble without– – No, just give me the HK91.

(laughing) I don’t wanna eat the brass.

– Yeah, the brass’ll get ya pretty good.

But, that’s the reason I had buyer’s remorse on that gun.

– Let’s not forget, if you put an optic on it, your optic’s about a foot above your bore.

– That’s right, it doesn’t cowitness right with the– – No it doesn’t.

– Oh, let’s also remember that that mag release is so big and easy to operate that sometimes you do it unintentionally.

– That’s right.

You said you’ve seen a lot of guys– – Not a lot, but we’ve seen that happen a couple times at the two gun match.

You get up from a position and bump that mag release and don’t realize it, and by the time you get to your new position, fire one shot and discover you’ve got no magazine left ’cause it’s back over there.

– That’s unfortunate. (laughs) Hey, if anybody has experience with the DeVore while serving in the military, we’d love to hear if that’s actually a serious problem, or if that’s just something that us civilians experience while we’re kind of doing civilian gun-type stuff.

– Yeah, that’s an issue that’s really surprising to see come out of an Israeli military firearm.

– It is, they generally think everything that they put into the field and through a pretty good bureaucracy that makes sure it works right, and ya know, the Galil’s a perfect example of that.

– Yeah, I mean usually Trifecta’s, like Ian said, very good.

But you made a statement earlier that you said that if given the choice between a AUG and a DeVore, that you’d take the AUG.

– Take the AUG every time, 10 times outta 10.

And we might do a video on that, it’s been done, kinda been beaten to death. – Right.

– But another perspective can’t hurt.

– No, yeah and I don’t have a lot of experience with the DeVore, but I do have a fair bit of experience with the AUG and I really do like that rifle a lot.

– Yeah.

– So I’m really intrigued to see how the DeVore shapes up.

If your grievances are as apparent to me as they are to you.

– Yeah, absolutely.

And I think that would be a good assessment.

In a perfect world we’d have all four of our guns together, and we could see, get everyone’s reaction on the in slow motion camera while we’re shooting them.

(laughing) – Yeah, I uh– – And a twisted up face.

– I don’t think anybody has a KSG, nobody has an XD, and the other two who got covered– – Yeah, the other two we’ve got covered.

– Yeah unfortunately.

– But, anyways guys, so that’s our “Four Guns We’re Not Really Fond Of, But Aren’t Necessarily Bad” video.

I don’t know how to title this video, otherwise I’m sure there’s a title above my head right now that makes more sense than what I just said. (laughs) But anyways, thanks for watching TFB TV.

We’d also like to thank you guys for comin’.

– Thank you. – Also check out Ian’s channel, he’s got Forgottenweapons.com as well as a fantastic YouTube channel, and he’s featured on Full 30, right? We’re gonna go ahead and throw a link right up here.

Check that out, I know I will.

And, thanks to our sponsors Ventura Munitions and Grizzly Targets.

Anyways, this is Alex and Patrick, and Ian and Nathaniel with TFB TV.

Thank you for watching.



Alex C.

Alex is a Senior Writer for The Firearm Blog and Director of TFBTV.


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  • thedonn007

    Alex, of all the firearms that you could choosen, you had to pick the tavor. A firearm, which I just happen to have in my very small collection. I just don’t know what to say, I think I will have to stop visiting TFB for a while to recuperate, LOL.

    • Patrick R.

      ..

    • Hyok Kim

      I disagree. I salute to Alex, for having the fortitude to say the truth even if the truth would offend the fanboys. That kind of outlook is really a breath of fresh air. You don’t see that often. This is what makes TFB truly a gem.

  • Haunted Puppeteer

    D: Nathaniel’s name is misspelled in the title! How could you! Nathanial? Really?

    Especially since it seems to be spelled correctly everywhere else..

    • I honestly don’t know how that happened. I spelled it right everywhere else, including on the youtube video, lol.

      My bad Nate.

      • My name’s been written as just about every combination of “Nathaniel/Nathanial/Nathanael/Natheniel” “Fitch/Finch/Fincher/Fiche” that it doesn’t bug me.

        • Giolli Joker

          Get a passport for each combination… you never know… 🙂

        • Kivaari

          I bet you are like me and all of them aren’t nice.

  • plingr2

    Try CZ 100, weapon look good (shape is not bad) but the trigger is the worst.

  • no

    Due to all the spelling errors, I’m assuming you guys use some sort of software to transcribe the dialogue for these videos, yes/no?

    Would it be that hard to do a quick read of the article before posting it? It just seems lazy. I’m not a grammar nazi, but when the Tavor is referred throughout the whole article as a DaVore, I think a little more effort is merited.

    • I honestly dont know who does the transcriptions and I’m not in charge of scheduling posts. It ain’t me.

      • Spencer

        YouTube does them automatically under certain conditions now. Someone probably copy/pasted that

    • Giolli Joker

      Honestly, most websites just have the video, I like the transcription that can tell you quite quickly if you want to watch the clip. I can tolerate a few typos.

      • Bill

        I think it speaks to the care, professionalism and quality control of the product. There is no shortage of mediocrity of the web. If an author wants to stand out, they need to put some effort into what they do, or stay on Facebook and Instagram.

    • Kivaari

      I was getting ready to google DeVore rifles.

      • Shawn

        lol I just got done doing that myself

        • mbrd

          i was considering doing that until they said, “-And it’s Israeli. -It’s Israeli.”
          contrasting it against the aug sealed my suspicion.
          wow, i feal reelie smart rite now!

      • Dan

        Same haha.

    • DAN V.

      I noticed a comma splice within your comment. ,:);;.6$

    • Jarhead0369

      Typical these days. Half done with no proof reading, and let the consumer figure it out. Is it too much trouble to have a little attention to detail?

    • I can’t answer that. I proof the regular TFB post but nothing with TFBTV.

  • MrEllis

    Uh-oh, someone had an opinion on the internet. Prepare to repel boarders! Form a square! Fix bayonets, and stuff.

    Thanks for the video, guys. Enjoyed it as usual.

  • Riot

    I was really confused reading this on mobile on the way home.

    Was thinking; what the hell is a “DeVore”?

    • Anomanom

      De Vore is de sexual fetish where de people want to be swallowed whole by de giant.

      Srsly do *NOT* google it.

      • Tassiebush

        I did and I’m very disappointed! 🙁

    • TheNotoriousIUD

      Bass player for Prince and The Revolution.

  • Anomanom

    I will add one more gripe about the HK91. It sucks to stand next to it in an indoor range. The shockwave that pops out of that thing when it goes off is worse than magnum revolvers.

  • Spencer

    Someone should have mentioned the M1 Garand. It was a truly remarkable firearm when it came out, but semiautomatic weapons really shouldn’t bite their owners for reloading them “wrong”.

    • Bal256

      Except that’s completely wrong. You can’t get M1 thumb when loading ammo. You can ONLY get M1 thumb when you are working with an empty action, there’s just not room for the action to bite with ammo in it.

      • Erm, yeah, you can get M1 thumb when loading:

        It’s easy to avoid, but it can definitely happen.

  • Wolfgar

    The 2 reliable but clunky feeling firearms that I would never own are the Valmet M82 bull pup rifle and the Ruger P88 9mm semi auto handgun. Human engineering was not a priority with these firearms.

  • Ian Thorne

    Two things:

    1. The Tavor barrel can very much be changed at home. You just have to buy the wrench for it. I went between 5.56 and 9mm at home several times while I had mine. Takes under 10 minutes once you know how.

    2: Why would you want a handstop on the KSG when you have a rail? A handstop built in is a terrible idea. I am 6’2″ and my Wife is 5’3″. There is no built in hand stop that would work for both of us. A rail lets you customize it as needed instead of forcing you into a “one size fits some” solution.

  • HH

    Good vid guys. Again it’s refreshing to see folks do something other than talk about how great the xyz gun is, etc. Interesting I own all 4 of the mentioned guns.

    HK 91: I’m an HK guy…yeah I reluctantly see Ian’s points concerning it. I hate the banged up brass from it nailing the ejection port even though a port buffer helps with that. The brass still gets kicked into the next county (or down the line into someone’s face).

    Tavor: Seemed fine to me. Trigger might be the best of the bullpups (stock triggers) though. I have the 9mm kit for it. Not a big deal to swap out the barrel, etc really. But I can see if you’re not a bullpup fan then you might not like it.

    KSG: The 1st gen tended to welt one’s arms up with hot spent cases. The newer ones do not. Mine never has at least. Plus its been reliable for me. Yeah…adding a Magpul foregrip is mandatory for safety in my opinion. Easy fix.

    XD: Got one. I never shoot it. But thats bc I’m not a polymer pistol dude and prefer sigs and HKs more

    • thedonn007

      I have been thinking about picking up a 9 mm kit for my Tavor, but have not pulled the trigger on it yet. How do you like iy?

    • Hyok Kim

      “But I can see if you’re not a bullpup fan then you might not like it.”

      There are bullpups out there.

  • Major Tom

    For a minute there, I thought you guys were gonna go all anti-Russian or something and hating on Mosin-Nagants and Kalashnikovs and whatnot.

    • USMC03Vet

      I’m surprised nobody said AR or AK. Instant click bait.

      • wetcorps

        I mst admit I was kind of waiting for this as well. The flamewar would have been glorious.

        • Nashvone

          Add anything Glock or 1911 to that list and the TFB server would have crashed in a blaze of glory.

  • Kid Charlemagne

    “I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of Tavor fanbois cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced”- Obi-Wan Kenobi

    • USMC03Vet

      Don’t IWI weapons have some terrible triggers on them?

      • Not sure I’d call them terrible, but the Tavor is about as ‘meh’ as anyone could expect from a bullpup. Galils and their pistols are pretty good, though.

        • Kivaari

          Are Galils still in production? I had a couple, and wish I still did, 20+ years ago. Nice heavy 5.56mm and 7.62mm rifles, that recoiled out of proportion to the caliber. I remember telling Ian Hogg about that, and since he had never shot one, thought I was nuts.

          • The Galil ACE is.

          • Yeah, a new and modernized Galil is in production called the ACE. ‘Classic’ models are still produced in South Africa (as the R4) and in, I believe, Columbia.

            I fired one in 5.56 about ten years ago at a weapon shoot hosted by NATO in Germany but I don’t remember the recoil impulse, and I had just got done firing G3’s so even if it was a little more than normal I doubt I’d have noticed!

      • noamsaying

        You can buy some really sweet aftermarket trigger assemblies that greatly reduce the pounds for trigger pull. You can also take one small spring off in the trigger assembly that comes with the Tavor that will greatly reduce trigger pull.

        • Hyok Kim

          Did you think about potential ignition reliability problem?

        • Very true. I removed that spring in the beginning then put a Timney trigger in mine.

  • Kid Charlemagne

    Anything using .223/5.56

    • USMC03Vet

      Pretty boring caliber to shoot ill agree.

    • TheNotoriousIUD

      Hot take, dude.

    • noamsaying

      Especially in a short barrel. The one thing that I do like about the Tavor is that you can get an 18 inch barrel in a short package, and get the muzzle velocity of the 556 back up to where it should be for lethality. This is my wife’s home defense gun (too little for a shotgun.) I will be the bomb thrower and tell you guys that I greatly prefer 6.8.

        • Hyok Kim

          No need to be so hard on him, didn’t USMC have 20″ barrel not so long ago, for that reason?

          • Well, I think it was more due to a perception than anything else. The USMC has always been a bit weird, and I think they balked at the idea of giving carbines to riflemen, even if the carbines were much more capable.

          • Hyok Kim

            ” The USMC has always been a bit weird,….”

            Most of them were okay, a few outstanding, and a few who said things like “I know all about using a gun, and I learned it at USMC!”. Found out he served just one tour, 30 years ago, in and out, not even a combat vet.

            “…. and I think they balked at the idea of giving carbines to riflemen, even if the carbines were much more capable.”

            Yes, I think the brass might confused long range marksmanship with overall combat effectiveness. Many seemed to think longer the barrel, the more accurate is the mechanical accuracy. Not necessarily true. But (in the days of iron sights) they might have confused the better accuracy available from long sight radius with better mechanical accuracy.

          • Kivaari

            Or simply looked at what was in inventory and decided to cycle the rifles through until they needed to be replaced. More goes into decisions than the length of a barrel. The Marines could simply trade uppers, but there was a small fortune of 20 inch uppers to use. Marines still trained its members to be riflemen. Like the commandant said when asked what he did. He responded that he was a marine rifleman, currently serving as commandant. Tradition. Marines learn iron sight shooting. When they put 4x scopes on the rifles the troops loved them. Making a 400m shot with iron sights in combat is hard. A scope aided them, and hits went up.

      • Hyok Kim

        “The one thing that I do like about the Tavor is that you can get an 18 inch barrel in a short package, and get the muzzle velocity of the 556 back up to where it should be for lethality. ”

        You can have the same feature you desire in all bullpup guns.

        • Kivaari

          FS2000 articles all said they were inaccurate. Awkwardness seems to be mentioned in articles everytime. Being ambidextrous was a plus. I only handled one once, and found it had the worst handling of any rifle I had ever used. A Mini 14 for 25% of the price is a superior weapon.

          • Hyok Kim

            “FS2000 articles all said they were inaccurate.”

            Which bullpups were more accurate?

            ” Awkwardness seems to be mentioned in articles everytime.”

            ….and which bullpups were less awkard?

            “I only handled one once, and found it had the worst handling of any rifle I had ever used.”

            Why did you think it had the worst handling of any rifle you had ever used?

            “A Mini 14 for 25% of the price is a superior weapon.”

            Why do you think Mini 14 is a superior weapon?

          • Kivaari

            The articles I am referring to were about the FS2000. In my experience the AUG from a rest with the 24″ barrel and sporting an 8x Kahles, shot well. With the 1.5x Swarovski, it was mediocre.
            Except for the awkward AUG, every bullpup fells awkward. Why don’t you just accept that bullpups are awkward? The 2000 seemed worse to ME than others. Tavors are awkward, have selectors that mimic plastic toy guns. Valmets are awkward in the bullpup configuration. A FN 5.7 carbine is comfortable, the original sights are crude, ejection is great, but loading the 50 round easily broken magazine is not easily changed. The solution is obvious – buy an AR15/M4 clone and you will have a rifle/carbine that isn’t one-sided and can be reloaded easily. A mini 14 is better since it is not one sided, fires the same round and magazine changes are less awkward. Therefore, the Mini 14 is a better carbine. In particular the newer models have improved over the earlier patterns. Now if I have to explain why the new models are superior to the earlier models, I suggest you do a test case. I’ve used them for 40 years. I’ve used ARs even longer. I sold everything else, some with regret, and now only have ARs, Glocks, K-frame and J-frame weapons left. For me, a non-hunter I don’t have a burning desire for anything else, except a Mk 12 upper with one more SSA trigger and a Mk8 Leupold scope.

          • Hyok Kim

            “The articles I am referring to were about the FS2000.” – Kivaari

            …..strange, Leroy Thompson who had long experience with AUG, stated that FS2000 as the best bullpup.

            “Except for the awkward AUG, every bullpup fells awkward.” – Kivaari

            … strange logic, why did you say then, “Except for the awkward AUG,….”

            You should have said instead, “AUG is awkward, just like all other bullpups.”

            “Why don’t you just accept that bullpups are awkward?” – Kivaari

            I had already said several months ago, bullpup is not my favorite weapon, but not for the reasons you stated.

            Btw. Jerry Miculek loves bullpups, most of its handling qualities, pretty much all of the bullpups, and I agree with Jerry as far as those handling qualities Jerry mentioned.

            Maybe you should give advise to Jerry on the fine points of handling qualities of battle carbines, huh?

            “The 2000 seemed worse to ME than others.” – Kivaari

            “The solution is obvious – buy an AR15/M4 clone and you will have a rifle/carbine that isn’t one-sided and can be reloaded easily. A mini 14 is better since it is not one sided, fires the same round and magazine changes are less awkward. Therefore, the Mini 14 is a better carbine.” – Kivaari

            Odd logic, my dear Kivaari, since FS2000 is not one sided!!! Not only that It’s one of few bullpups that is not one-sided, like most bullpups!!!

          • Kivaari

            Re-read Thompsons article. He panned the 2000. I did say the 2000 ejected as it should. The thick bulk rifle just can’t compete well against ARs. A $2500 2000, is easily ignored. Adding quality accessories to an AR allows the owner to have an M4 ($900) with a Mk4 1.5x24mm scope ($900) a GG&G QD mount ($200) a Geissele SSA trigger ($210) 10 Magpul Pmags ($130) gives the user a complete system, leaving the FS2000 still bare, needing another $1500 of goodies. If someone likes bullpup, more power to ’em, I hate ’em. Had the FS2000 had better reviews and wasn’t so club like, I’d probably would have bought one. I couldn’t get past the club-like handling, and Thompsons article said it was a terribly inaccurate rifle. About the only thing Thompson ever wrote that I agreed with. Like his raving reviews of the HK-Bennelli M1-121 shotguns where he fired 65 rounds and declared it the best combat shotgun ever. Except the two I had, had more failures to function, than all the 65 rounds he fired.

          • Hyok Kim

            “Re-read Thompsons article. He panned the 2000.” – Kivaari

            “One reason I’m such a fan of the F2000 and FS2000 is that they have the good points of other bullpup carbines without the negatives.

            Final Notes

            I initially wanted to try the FS2000 because I had shot the military F2000 in Belgium some time ago and wanted to see how well it could be designed as a semi-auto. I think the semi turned out exceedingly well. FNH offers a truly different semi-auto battle rifle for those of us who like “black rifles” (though the FS2000 is available in green as well).

            I like the FS2000 and the SpecterDR a lot and highly recommend the FS2000 for tactical use as well as for enjoyment among sport shooters who like military-type rifles.” – Leroy Thompson

            “I did say the 2000 ejected as it should.” – Kivaari

            You never said it. All you said was FS 2000 was the worst of the bullpups.

            “The 2000 seemed worse to ME than others.” – Kivaari

            “The solution is obvious – buy an AR15/M4 clone and you will have a rifle/carbine that isn’t one-sided and can be reloaded easily. A mini 14 is better since it is not one sided, fires the same round and magazine changes are less awkward. Therefore, the Mini 14 is a better carbine.” – Kivaari

            “An FS2000 feature I am especially fond of is the forward ejection system, which throws cases forward and down. The design is that even when you’re prone, cases will be fully ejected. This system allows use of low cover without having hot cases ejected into or onto one’s face.” – Leroy Thompson

            “Re-read Thompsons article. He panned the 2000.” – Kivaari

            “The thick bulk rifle just can’t compete well against ARs.” – Kivaari

            “Let’s talk advantages first: Bullpup rifles offer a full power rifle in a package that’s closer in size to an SMG than a typical battle rifle. As a result, bullpups are very handy for use in confined spaces. They can be handled with one hand while opening doors or performing other tasks. Despite their short overall length, bullpup rifles have standard length barrels, which give good ballistic performance. Although bullpup carbines appear to be somewhat ungainly, most are very ergonomically designed and quite comfortable to shoot.

            One reason I’m such a fan of the F2000 and FS2000 is that they have the good points of other bullpup carbines without the negatives. Oh, it does need a good sling for extended carry, but other than that, the design is very good.” – Leroy Thompson

            “Re-read Thompsons article. He panned the 2000.” – Kivaari

            ” If someone likes bullpup, more power to ’em, I hate ’em. Had the FS2000 had better reviews and wasn’t so club like, I’d probably would have bought one.” – Kivaari

            “Re-read Thompsons article. He panned the 2000.” – Kivaari

            “”One reason I’m such a fan of the F2000 and FS2000 is that they have the good points of other bullpup carbines without the negatives.

            The molded polymer construction is tough and ergonomic. At first I thought the butt was too large, but now that I’ve gotten used to it, I like it. The thumbhole stock is very comfortable and fully ambidextrous. For use in cold weather while wearing gloves, the molded triggerguard is large.

            What really sets the FS2000 above most other contemporary battle rifles is the ergonomics, especially for use within vehicles or in other confined spaces. The folding left side charging handle can be easily operated without losing the sight picture while in prone position. Both the magazine release and safety dial can be operated ambidextrously.

            A very positive aspect of the deep magazine well is that the magazine does not protrude as much as on a typical carbine and hence, has less chance of snagging when moving through undergrowth, kicking a door, or leaving or entering a vehicle.

            An FS2000 feature I am especially fond of is the forward ejection system, which throws cases forward and down. The design is that even when you’re prone, cases will be fully ejected. This system allows use of low cover without having hot cases ejected into or onto one’s face.

            Speaking of the forearm, it is another very well designed feature of the FS2000. It offers a very comfortable grip for the support hand. Its shape allows it to be used with a variety of rests to steady the carbine. I have used packs, grassy mounds, rails, and assorted other rests quite effectively with the FS2000. ” – Leroy Thompson

            “I couldn’t get past the club-like handling, and Thompsons article said it was a terribly inaccurate rifle.” – Kivaari

            “Range Time

            I’ve been using my FS2000 with the SpecterDR for a few months now and like the combo. In fact, I find that when on my way to the range to test other rifles I’ll often throw the FS2000 in my truck and fire a couple of magazines through it as well. For me, the FS2000/SpecterDR combo works great from 25 meters or less, and out to 300 meters. The compact FS2000 handles quickly for CQB-type shooting on multiple targets at close range, where the wide field of view allows very quick target acquisition as one scans an area. I also find that at ranges from 100 to 300 meters, I do just as well on the 4x setting. With SS109 ammo I have shot sub-MOA 3-shot groups at 100 yards with the best around 0.75 of an inch.” – Leroy Thompson

            http://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/fnh-fs2000-tactical-223/

          • Hyok Kim

            “Re-read Thompsons article. He panned the 2000.” – Kivaari

            “One reason I’m such a fan of the F2000 and FS2000 is that they have the good points of other bullpup carbines without the negatives.” – Leroy Thompson

            “I did say the 2000 ejected as it should.” – Kivaari

            You never said it. All you said was FS 2000 was the worst of the bullpups.

            “The 2000 seemed worse to ME than others.” – Kivaari

            “The thick bulk rifle just can’t compete well against ARs.” – Kivaari

            “Let’s talk advantages first: Bullpup rifles offer a full power rifle in a package that’s closer in size to an SMG than a typical battle rifle. As a result, bullpups are very handy for use in confined spaces. They can be handled with one hand while opening doors or performing other tasks. Despite their short overall length, bullpup rifles have standard length barrels, which give good ballistic performance. Although bullpup carbines appear to be somewhat ungainly, most are very ergonomically designed and quite comfortable to shoot.

            One reason I’m such a fan of the F2000 and FS2000 is that they have the good points of other bullpup carbines without the negatives. Oh, it does need a good sling for extended carry, but other than that, the design is very good.” – Leroy Thompson

            “Re-read Thompsons article. He panned the 2000.” – Kivaari

            “Had the FS2000 had better reviews and wasn’t so club like, I’d probably would have bought one. I couldn’t get past the club-like handling, …….” – Kivaari

            “What really sets the FS2000 above most other contemporary battle rifles is the ergonomics, especially for use within vehicles or in other confined spaces. The folding left side charging handle can be easily operated without losing the sight picture while in prone position. Both the magazine release and safety dial can be operated ambidextrously.” – Kivaari

            “……….and Thompsons article said it was a terribly inaccurate rifle.” – Kivaari

            “Range Time

            I’ve been using my FS2000 with the SpecterDR for a few months now and like the combo. In fact, I find that when on my way to the range to test other rifles I’ll often throw the FS2000 in my truck and fire a couple of magazines through it as well. For me, the FS2000/SpecterDR combo works great from 25 meters or less, and out to 300 meters. The compact FS2000 handles quickly for CQB-type shooting on multiple targets at close range, where the wide field of view allows very quick target acquisition as one scans an area. I also find that at ranges from 100 to 300 meters, I do just as well on the 4x setting. With SS109 ammo I have shot sub-MOA 3-shot groups at 100 yards with the best around 0.75 of an inch.” – Leroy Thompson

            http://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/fnh-fs2000-tactical-223/

          • Hyok Kim

            “In my experience the AUG from a rest with the 24″ barrel and sporting an 8x Kahles, shot well. With the 1.5x Swarovski, it was mediocre.” – Kivaari

            Jerry Miculek tested AUG, Tavor, and FS2000. Their accuracy were all about the same, even though Jerry was least familiar with FS2000 trigger, and the most familiar with Tavor trigger.

            Who know? Maybe you can show Jerry how to shoot.

          • Kivaari

            Perhaps after he panned it in one article, FNH sent out better products. I can only say that the handling of the FS2000 was the worst of all the bullpups I have handled. I’ve only shot the AUG, with the 1.5x optic and a 24″ variant with an 8x Kahles. The Swarovski original sight was horrible, magazine changes awkward and there was little protection for the hand when it was hot. You are free to hold other views. Some like Colt DA revolvers an some like S&W revolvers.

          • Hyok Kim

            “Perhaps after he panned it in one article, FNH sent out better products. I can only say that the handling of the FS2000 was the worst of all the bullpups” – Kivaari

            “Re-read Thompsons article. He panned the 2000.” – Kivaari

            “One reason I’m such a fan of the F2000 and FS2000 is that they have the good points of other bullpup carbines without the negatives.

            Final Notes

            I initially wanted to try the FS2000 because I had shot the military F2000 in Belgium some time ago and wanted to see how well it could be designed as a semi-auto. I think the semi turned out exceedingly well. FNH offers a truly different semi-auto battle rifle for those of us who like “black rifles” (though the FS2000 is available in green as well).

            I like the FS2000 and the SpecterDR a lot and highly recommend the FS2000 for tactical use as well as for enjoyment among sport shooters who like military-type rifles.” – Leroy Thompson

          • Hyok Kim

            “Perhaps after he panned it in one article, FNH sent out better products. I can only say that the handling of the FS2000 was the worst of all the bullpups” – Kivaari

            “Re-read Thompsons article. He panned the 2000.” – Kivaari

            “What really sets the FS2000 above most other contemporary battle rifles is the ergonomics, especially for use within vehicles or in other confined spaces. The folding left side charging handle can be easily operated without losing the sight picture while in prone position. Both the magazine release and safety dial can be operated ambidextrously.” – Leroy Thompson

          • Kivaari

            That’s a complete reversal from his first article. He complained about how awkward it was getting in and out of vehicles and the terrible accuracy. Perhaps he was “gifted” a new model on the condition he hyped it. I do not hold Leroy Thompson in high regard when it comes to firearms. I’ve read his stuff for 30+ years, and some times he’s right and some times he’s wrong.
            I know from personal experience that if a writer is honest in a review the editor will “change direction” when a product is found to be wanting. I also know that particular writers fake results to sell both books and ammunition (Ed Sanow and his partner on ammo performance and Chuck Taylor on combat shotguns). Then some of those people become editors of serious publications.
            Products do get revisited because early models fail. Like the first 300 or 400 FN FS2000. Perhaps many gun reviews are pure fiction.
            Desperate editors have been known to write fiction, and pass it off as fact. Like one defunct magazine that had the story of German U-boats, U234 and U235 (the chemical weights of the nuke material they were hauling) hauling radioactive materials in a last ditch effort to build a Japanese A-Bomb.
            Don’t trust every thing you read in gun magazines, especially the popular press.
            One case comes to mind in a respected military publication where Soviet body armor in Afghanistan was “flimsy and looked like kapok”, considering it was recovered from a sunken amphibious PT76, where personal floatation devices were issued gear. Too many experts miss the obvious.
            Books on sniping come to mind, like Martin Pagler in his otherwise excellent book on WW1 rifles and scopes where ballistic information is mixed up. He substituted 7.35mm specs for 6.5mm specs. People make mistakes, but since it is in a book, it has to be correct. Well, people can change their minds, like I suspect is what happened with Thompson. He’s frequently published, but he is often wrong. As I mentioned before about the HK-Bennelli M1-121 shotgun. He declared it the best combat shotgun in the world after firing 65 rounds. I had two of them and I had more malfunctions than he shot. In talking directly with the HK representative (face to face) he came clean and said the damn things just don’t work. So who is correct, Thompson or the factory rep and myself?
            At one time I was hired by Omega Publishing to post production review one of the books they sent to stores across America. It resulted in the author getting “fired with great prejudice”. Entire books are based on BS and often no real hands-on with the subject.

          • Hyok Kim

            “Perhaps after he panned it in one article, FNH sent out better products. I can only say that the handling of the FS2000 was the worst of all the bullpups” – Kivaari

            “That’s a complete reversal from his first article.” – Kivaari

            ….and that’s a complete reversal from your first statement regarding Thompson article, since you only mentioned one article, not two!

            Here’s a recap.

            “Re-read Thompsons article. He panned the 2000.” – Kivaari

            If Thompson had written more than one article about FS2000, and he had reversed from the first, then why had you not mentioned it?

            …..and furthermore If you do not have high regard for Thompson and his reviews, then why did you use him to rebut FS2000?

            “I do not hold Leroy Thompson in high regard when it comes to firearms.” – Kivaari

            “Re-read Thompsons article. He panned the 2000.” – Kivaari

            It is illogical to use a person’s review whom one does not hold in high regard when it comes to firearms in order to support one’s view on firearms.

            “I did say the 2000 ejected as it should.” – Kivaari

            You never said it.

            “Don’t trust every thing you read in gun magazines, especially the popular press.” – Kivaari

            …..then why did you?

            “Re-read Thompsons article. He panned the 2000.” – Kivaari

            “FS2000 articles all said they were inaccurate.” – Kivaari

            Btw. Thompson article did not say it was inaccurate. You had said they all said.

            http://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/fnh-fs2000-tactical-223/

          • Kivaari

            Do you understand that people read articles about firearms, written by people that are not always the best writers? When Thompson and others were all gaw gaw over the Benelli shotguns, I had fired more rounds and had more failures to function than most of the authors. In one month I had 3 “letters to the editors”, regarding my experience. Some writers will simply lie about the subject matter. Not wanting to offend manufacturers or importers. Even writers like Chuck Taylor get lazy. He did a shotgun review, a Scattergun Technologies conversion of an M870, and made great claims about the great groups with buck shot. He used photographs from a book he published 20 years earlier. Well, one thing writers need to remember is readers read, and readers remember. As I said elsewhere many groups are fired with a keyboard, either electronic or typewritten. I’ve been there and done that observation work. Also keep in mind that writers like Thompson are often free-lancers. They will change a piece so it can appear in more magazines. Then again they can find that the first model they tested was horrible, as it is early production or even a prototype. They get a replacement and they get a winner. It has happened to me, especially when I owned a gun store. It becomes obvious that some gun makers never tested even one sample of the product. One comes to mind, where Charter Arms sold a .357 magnum revolver with a ported barrel. I sol one to a good customer. He came in a couple hours later, and the aluminum barrel shroud had be blown off the barrel. It turns out CA had used a rotary cutter to cut a single big chunk out of the barrel (under the front sight) with a port to either side. Well, within 2 shots, the shroud flew off the gun. Talk about junk. Do you think after CA got a few of those back that they stopped production or made them correctly?
            Or like the H&R .357 single shot carbine I ordered from Davidson’s. The first one did not have rifling. The second one had a missing front sight and a cross threaded forearm screw, and the third was OK except like the others had a firing pin three times too long. All 3 pierced primers sending hot gasses rearward. Or the Mk V Weatherby without a chamber, but a test target? Or the Navy Arms Golden Boy (Win 66) without a chamber but all the Italian proof house paperwork. So I am quite sure that guns get out that should not get out. And that some may not hold a group, until replaced by an entirely new gun. I am sure the men at TFB have seen quite a few defective guns and ammo. Look at all the recall notices for major brand firearms and ammunition in the gun press. Or huge lawsuits. Tell me why new Colt’s, S&W or Rugers that fail. Like the Ruger 77/22 having too short firing pins, or the S&W M66 and M67s that were so soft that after firing less than 2500 rounds they needed re-building and had 8 upgrades due to parts failure. Ruger single actions that were fixed after million dollar lawsuits, and the creation of “New Model Blackhawks and Single Sixes”. Or Remington 700 series that had triggers allowing firing upon releasing a safety, resulting in death and injuries.
            No things get nice write ups, after the writer calls the factory press office and tell them the gun is a POS, Been there and done that as well. I’ve seen articles quashed because a writer told the truth, so the editor took it “in another direction”, like not publishing it after threats to withdraw advertising dollars. Been there and done that as well.
            So tell, me what gun did Thompson find so awkward and inaccurate in his FS2000 write ups? The first one, second or third?

          • FWIW: Chuck Taylor was notorious for recycling the same articles over and again to different publishers. Stuff that was first published in SOF would then get recycled for SWAT during his stint as editor. Later, it would appear in Combat Handguns and/or one of Harris Publications specialty annuals. Then it might reappear in one of Pedersen’s publications like Combat Arms or Handguns. Some have probably resurfaced in Gun World by now.

          • Kivaari

            It’s one thing to re-write an article so it fits the readership. It’s another to BS readers like Taylor and Thompson do. Pure BS works when the readership knows nothing and trusts the writers. When I was still actively in the business, I read at least a dozen magazines each month, in addition to reading what are passed as technical books. We have too many BSers.

          • Hyok Kim

            “It’s one thing to re-write an article so it fits the readership. It’s another to BS readers like Taylor and Thompson do.” – Kivaari

            “Sure a great many cops that like Glocks.” – Kivaari

            “I often carry a Glock 30 for personal defense due to its compactness and the fact that because of it I can grasp the gun with reasonable comfort.” – Chuck Taylor

            “Thompsons original article told readers the FN was awkward and inaccurate.” – Kivaari

            “Re-read Thompsons article. He panned the 2000.” – Kivaari

            “I read the one where he panned it. ALL bullpups are awkward, not just the fat and awkward FS2000.” – Kivaari

            “I do not hold Leroy Thompson in high regard when it comes to firearms.” – Kivaari

            “Pure BS works when the readership knows nothing and trusts the writers. When I was still actively in the business, I read at least a dozen magazines each month, in addition to reading what are passed as technical books. We have too many BSers.” – Kivaari

          • Kivaari

            I see you enjoy quoting me, but what is the point? So do you agree or disagree? I read the quotes, and I enjoy the original authors insight.

          • Hyok Kim

            ” I read the quotes, and I enjoy the original authors insight.” – Kivaari

            “I do not hold Leroy Thompson in high regard when it comes to firearms.” – Kivaari

            “Thompsons original article told readers the FN was awkward and inaccurate.” – Kivaari

            “Re-read Thompsons article. He panned the 2000.” – Kivaari

            “I read the one where he panned it. ALL bullpups are awkward, not just the fat and awkward FS2000.” – Kivaari

            “I do not hold Leroy Thompson in high regard when it comes to firearms.” – Kivaari

            “Sure a great many cops that like Glocks.” – Kivaari

            “I often carry a Glock 30 for personal defense due to its compactness and the fact that because of it I can grasp the gun with reasonable comfort.” – Chuck Taylor

            “It’s one thing to re-write an article so it fits the readership. It’s another to BS readers like Taylor and Thompson do.” – Kivaari

          • Kivaari

            AND your point is?
            When I enjoy an authors original insight, means I get a laugh out of how stupid they are, or they know their stuff.
            I still don’t hold Thompson in high regard. Even a broken clock is right two times a day. He can make valid points now and then.
            His original article still panned the FS2000, so nothing has changed except his view of it. What was his pay off? What did he get paid for the first article? What was he paid for the follow on articles?
            Bullpups are still awkward, so that hasn’t changed.
            Cops still like Glocks and Glock Clones, where has that changed? So some agencies have bought S&W M&Ps, which are clones.
            Taylor packs a Glock 30. OK, So what? I can NOT get a good grip on the Glock 30. So, What Does Taylor have a different sized hand than I do? I still do not like Taylor, since he is all over the board on what is in this month. He will tell everyone that nothing in 5.56 is good, promotes the M1A (that is his image used by SA promotional logo). A couple months ago he was all over the .22-250 as being the next great sniper rifle. Obviously he bought a new rifle and saw a chance to sell an article, or four.
            So where did I go wrong on Taylor and Thompson? Both make good money selling articles. Look up how their peers see them.
            I had formed my opinions of them 30+ years ago, and many critics today feel as I do.
            Don’t get suckered into accepting every thing in print even if it’s by an old name in the business.
            Good men can change their minds based on momentary likes and dislikes. I suspect I’ve owned and used more guns than most people. It can come from owning two stores, being in the Army and Navy and being in law enforcement. I have insight into what people think, as I listen, use and find out what is going on. That doesn’t mean I can shoot as well as any of them. So don’t throw JMs opinion about a bullpup at me, his opinion is irrelevant regarding what I like.

          • Hyok Kim

            “Pure BS works when the readership knows nothing and trusts the writers.” – Kivaari

            “It’s one thing to re-write an article so it fits the readership. It’s another to BS readers like Taylor and Thompson do.” – Kivaari

            “I suspect I’ve owned and used more guns than most people. It can come from owning two stores, being in the Army and Navy and being in law enforcement. I have insight into what people think, as I listen, use and find out what is going on.” – Kivaari

            “Some writers will simply lie about the subject matter.” – Kivaari

            “As I said elsewhere many groups are fired with a keyboard, either electronic or typewritten. I’ve been there and done that observation work.” – Kivaari

            “Brits, Aussies, NZ specops forces seem to like M4 and older M16s. SAS even chose them for the Falklands War. Why? well, despite what Jerry says, those men know better.” – Kivaari

            “How many people in the military world wide have the skills of Jerry? You could probably count them on one amputated hand.” – Kivaari

            “Pure BS works when the readership knows nothing and trusts the writers.” – Kivaari

          • Kivaari

            AND your point is? You agree with my assessment? Disagree? Or you aren’t sharp enough to know the truth when it slaps you in the face?

          • Hyok Kim

            “I suspect I’ve owned and used more guns than most people. It can come from owning two stores, being in the Army and Navy and being in law enforcement. I have insight into what people think, as I listen, use and find out what is going on.” – Kivaari

            “As I said elsewhere many groups are fired with a keyboard, either electronic or typewritten. I’ve been there and done that observation work.” – Kivaari

            “Pure BS works when the readership knows nothing and trusts the writers.” – Kivaari

            “It’s one thing to re-write an article so it fits the readership. It’s another to BS readers like Taylor and Thompson do.” – Kivaari

            “Brits, Aussies, NZ specops forces seem to like M4 and older M16s. SAS even chose them for the Falklands War. Why? well, despite what Jerry says, those men know better.” – Kivaari

            “How many people in the military world wide have the skills of Jerry? You could probably count them on one amputated hand.” – Kivaari

            “Some writers will simply lie about the subject matter.” – Kivaari

            “I suspect I’ve owned and used more guns than most people. It can come from owning two stores, being in the Army and Navy and being in law enforcement. I have insight into what people think, as I listen, use and find out what is going on.” – Kivaari

            “As I said elsewhere many groups are fired with a keyboard, either electronic or typewritten. I’ve been there and done that observation work.” – Kivaari

            http://newsok.com/article/3388041

            http://blogs.psychcentral.com/caregivers/2014/09/6-subtle-characteristics-of-the-pathological-liar/

          • Kivaari

            What’s your point? I not the liar in the news article nor does the other blog site open. Regardless, you are not too bright.

          • Kivaari

            Try this article from “The Truth About Guns”, Gun Review: IWI Tavor SAR by Nick Leghorn.
            Best group at 100 yards was the first group at 4 MOA, that’s bad. From then on he shot 8 MOA groups, that’s pathetic.

          • Hyok Kim

            “Try this article from “The Truth About Guns”, Gun Review: IWI Tavor SAR by Nick Leghorn.” – Kivaari

            “No more keyboard groups needed.” – Kivaari

          • Hyok Kim

            “In my experience the AUG from a rest with the 24″ barrel and sporting an 8x Kahles, shot well. With the 1.5x Swarovski, it was mediocre.” – Kivaari

            Jerry Miculek tested AUG, Tavor, and FS2000. Their accuracy were all about the same, even though Jerry was least familiar with FS2000 trigger, and the most familiar with Tavor trigger.

            Who know? Maybe you can show Jerry how to shoot.

          • Kivaari

            Maybe more of us could shoot as well as JM, if we devoted out lives to shooting and had sponsors giving us guns and mountains of ammunition. JMs natural instincts are most likely better than 1 out of a thousand. Why do you think he gets the sponsorships allowing him to excel? I’ve shot hundreds of thousands of rounds, but that is over the last 60 years. I suspect he hits those numbers every two years or so. Look at the top tier shooters, all what 20 of them in the nation and a few hundred world wide. I suspect he shoots a sling shot as well. Like big league base ball players that say they can see the stitching on the ball as its coming at them. Special people get special care.
            I wont sell my proven ARs to buy lesser quality bullpups that cost so damn much. I came close on the Tavor, and visited it several times in my favorite gun store. Even the store owner said don’t waste my time nor money. I like honesty in gun salesmen.

          • Hyok Kim

            “Maybe more of us could shoot as well as JM, if we devoted out lives to shooting and had sponsors giving us guns and mountains of ammunition. JMs natural instincts are most likely better than 1 out of a thousand. ” – Kivaari

            So you don’t deny Jerry knows more and shoots better than you, and still appreciate the bullpups in confined spaces? So whose advice to follow, you or Jerry?

          • Kivaari

            You are hard to deal with. When have I denied the skill of JM? He’s much more talented than I ever hoped to be. But, what does that have to do with bullpup rifles? He likes them, I don’t. My preferred service weapon WAS the MP5A2.Before I went back on the job, I had an HK94-SBR. When I told the chief I thought he was wrong on his love of shotguns, I took him out to shoot the HK94 and an Uzi (full-sixe). I told him to buy the A2 since the men would want to shoot the A3 with the stock slide in. He did in ’88 until ’91, when they replaced them with M4s. Today, due to advanced age and a weak wallet I no longer have any SBRs. Regardless of your likes or dislikes nothing you say matters. I may buy another Colt M4-11.5″ since the ATF form 4 transfers are down to 3 months, not 12 months like last year. Is the short M4 perfect? NO!. They should have a can, they drop velocity significantly compared to 16 inch carbines. Is it better than any bullpup rifle? Well, yes!
            Why? Because I like them better than any of those awkward bullpups.

          • Hyok Kim

            “When have I denied the skill of JM? He’s much more talented than I ever hoped to be. But, what does that have to do with bullpup rifles? He likes them, I don’t.” – Kivaari

            ……maybe because he’s more skillful and more knowledgeable than you are in the selection criteria of firearms for the particular mission?

          • Kivaari

            JM is a very talented shooter. What’s your point. Do I need to bow before the master and kiss his feet.

          • Hyok Kim

            “JM is a very talented shooter.” – Kivaari

            A lot better than you or me.

            “What’s your point.” – Kivaari

            ……that someone like him thinks highly of bullpups for certain situation, and higher of FS2000 for certain tasks than any other bullpups speaks for itself, which is corroborated by Leroy Thompson, and I agree with as far as those particular parameters are concerned.

            “Do I need to bow before the master and kiss his feet.” – Kivaari

            You don’t have to, but you also have the right to say, “Jerry Miculek is full of it. I know more than him!!!!”

          • Kivaari

            Why, would I put down one of the worlds best shooters. I suspect I know more about some of the gun world, than him, but I can’t shoot close to him. You seem to be in love with him and his ability. I’ve had enough of your ignorance.

          • Kivaari

            Does that change what I like or dislike? Bullpups stink.

          • Hyok Kim

            I am not talking about whether you like or dislike bullpups. I myself had said several months ago, bullpup is not my favorite weapon for reasons mostly having nothing to do why you dislike bullpups. I am merely saying the most of the reasons why you dislike bullpups are simply not corroborated by people like Jerry who is far more knowledgeable in the selection criteria of firearms for certain tasks than you, and I agree with Jerry as far as those reasons why he thinks highly of bullpups for certain situations, and why he thinks higher of FS2000 than other bullpups in certain situations.

            I myself do not care for the bullpup trigger, and how my arms would deployed in the use of bullpup.

          • Kivaari

            Hilarious. So if JM says he likes them, I am unable to dislike them. Bullpups are unsuitable for what I want in a rifle. So no matter what Jerry or Leroy says, I still hate the awkward ugly rifles. You seem to think that if someone with a bit of skill likes them, no one can hold their opinion to be worthless when applied to personal choice. What has JM said about the M4? I bet even he shoots one better and faster than he can use a bullpup. EVERYONE that I know and trust dislikes bullpups. I dislike them and couldn’t care less what your heroes say.

          • Hyok Kim

            “Brits, Aussies, NZ specops forces seem to like M4 and older M16s. SAS even chose them for the Falklands War. Why? well, despite what Jerry says, those men know better.” – Kivaari

            “How many people in the military world wide have the skills of Jerry? You could probably count them on one amputated hand.” – Kivaari

            “Hilarious.” – Kivaari

            …….indeed, isn’t it?

            “What army has adopted the F2000? How many armies adopted bullpups, but issue M4 or FNC or some other conventional rifle to its special operators? How many US special operations fighters choose bullpups?” – Kivaari

            …….the ranks and files mostly don’t get to choose the weapons they use in the field.

            “So if JM says he likes them, I am unable to dislike them.” – Kivaari

            ….did I ever say or imply that? You have the right to dislike Jerry’ all time favorite weapon and even claim you’re better than him or better than anybody in the world. It’s nice to live in a free country, isn’t it? But unless you can explain why Jerry is wrong for his reasons for favoring bullpup, it’s not likely to be taken seriously.

            “Bullpups are unsuitable for what I want in a rifle. So no matter what Jerry or Leroy says, ….”

            I agree if you’re primarily a bench rest shooter. There is no place for bullpups for bench rest shooting, but Jerry and Leroy were talking about confined space, CQB, offensive scenario primarily, such as SWAT raid.

            “I still hate the awkward ugly rifles.” – Kivaari

            Overall, I think they’re handsome, especially AUG, but hey, the beauty is in the eyes of beholder, and it’s only skin deep. You have the right to think they are ugly. You have the right to choose a weapon based on how they look, and you have the right to think a weapon is awkard for your purpose without being to able to explain why.

            “You seem to think that if someone with a bit of skill likes them, no one can hold their opinion to be worthless when applied to personal choice.” – Kivaari

            ……but I had neither said it nor implied it. All I said was you need to explain why you disagree with Jerry if you want your opinion to be taken seriously. After all, I disagreed with Ayoob (when Ayoob was at the height of his popularity), Larry Vickers, and an ex-USMC Recon, and a current Army Ranger, as well, but I can explain why I disagree with them on certain topics or techniques.

            “What has JM said about the M4? I bet even he shoots one better and faster than he can use a bullpup.” – Kivaari

            You didn’t watch the video by Jerry on bullpups, did you? Jerry clearly favored bullpups over conventional battle carbines such as M4 in confined space, cqb, primarily offensive scenario.

            “EVERYONE that I know and trust dislikes bullpups.” – Kivaari

            ……..guess this mean you don’t trust Phil White, who thinks highly of Tavor. If you don’t trust the main editor of this site, why are you even here? I would never stay in a site if I thought the editor was not ‘kosher’.

            “I dislike them and couldn’t care less what your heroes say.” – Kivaari

            …..again, you have the right to dislike bullpups for whatever reasons, and you have the right to not to care about the virtues of bullpups as spoken by Jerry. You even have the right to say you are better and more knowledgeable than Jerry! Nobody is stopping you from saying it. Btw. I respect Jerry for his ability in firearms. It doesn’t necessarily mean I respect his other qualities.

            I don’t know the man other than a video training tape I bought from him, and the articles, and youtube.

            Btw. His training video is worth the price just for his explanation regarding the virtue of serrated trigger, and ‘soft focus’ technique.

          • Kivaari

            I’ve most likely used firearms in the real world more than JM. He’s a great shooter. I’m pretty sure I’ve arrested more people at gun point than JM. I suspect he didn’t get his neck broken while arresting bad guys. But, he can outshoot almost everyone on the planet. We live in separate worlds. I did the job, he shoots matches. He’d kill me in the wink of an eye if I posed a threat to him. But that isn’t like working the street. I honor your hero and all times expert on what I should like. Did you know that even experts can be wrong?
            I do not need to watch training videos at my advanced age. If I can’t handle things with a 5-shot centennial, then I’ll end up losing that battle.

          • Hyok Kim

            I’ve most likely used firearms in the real world more than JM. I’m pretty sure I’ve arrested more people at gun point than JM. I suspect he didn’t get his neck broken while arresting bad guys. We live in separate worlds. I did the job, he shoots matches. He’d kill me in the wink of an eye if I posed a threat to him. But that isn’t like working the street.” – Kivaari

            http://newsok.com/article/3388041

          • Kivaari

            How many people in the military world wide have the skills of Jerry? You could probably count them on one amputated hand.

          • Hyok Kim

            “Brits, Aussies, NZ specops forces seem to like M4 and older M16s. SAS even chose them for the Falklands War. Why? well, despite what Jerry says, those men know better.” – Kivaari

            “How many people in the military world wide have the skills of Jerry? You could probably count them on one amputated hand.” – Kivaari

            “Hilarious.” – Kivaari

            ….indeed.

          • Kivaari

            Funny. Real combat troops picked the M16A1 over L1A1s. Hell, they should have waited for JMs video to come out. You’re pretty dense on why real soldiers for the most part ignore bullpups. The only soldiers that carry a bullpup is they are issued them. Now there seems to be quite a few small armies looking for anything but a bullpup. Others have so much invested in the concept that a service wide change is too costly. Look at what SOF troops pick. When a Navy SEAL member has an armory full of guns to choose from the M4s, Mk12s,Mk 18s or M14 variants, MP5s, tiny MP7s I have never heard of them asking for bullpups. Popular pistols seem to be SIGs in various sizes, HK .45 with cans, Glock 17s and not much else. I suspect they tried a few bullpups, and found the short Mk18 work well in confined spaces, when fitted with cans, where an 18″ bullpups is longer than the Mk18 or M4 having a can. I wonder why? Fast reloads, common architecture, superb Geissele triggers and so much more. Why do foreign nations normally issued bullpups choose M4-type carbines. Israel fields some TAVOR-types, now, just like other domestic rifles that have been tried in certain units (The Golani Brigade does a lot of testing). Most from what I read still carry M16 based rifles. I suspect after field use of the TAVOR-type rifles, they will abandon them like the Galil and Uzi. Time will tell. I don’t know of a major power using bullpups, for obvious reasons. That may even include the unavailability of licensing agreements, or field trials where the troops gave the samples a thumbs down. Hasn’t the US Army tested several over the last 70 years. Even EM2s from memory.

          • Hyok Kim

            Real rank and file front line combat troops mostly do not get to choose weapons they use. (unless field expedient ‘battle pick ups’) They use weapons issued from above, whether they like it or not.

          • Kivaari

            AS you know, we were discussing specops, in particular SEALs. I am a vet of the Navy where we used WW2 left-overs. Then the Army NG where we used left-overs from the Vietnam era. M16A1, M60 (“A-nothings”), M2HB, M3A1, 1911A1, M1C sniper, mortars, TOW and Dragon missiles. We took what was issued. If the only thing your unit gets, is what you get, then use it. I always found that foreign troops choosing M16A1s and now M4s did so since they served the purpose better than standard issue. Choosing an M16A1 over an L1A1 or Sterling makes sense.

          • Hyok Kim

            “Brits, Aussies, NZ specops forces seem to like M4 and older M16s. SAS even chose them for the Falklands War. Why? well, despite what Jerry says, those men know better.” – Kivaari

            “How many people in the military world wide have the skills of Jerry? You could probably count them on one amputated hand.” – Kivaari

            http://www.newhealthguide.org/Pathological-Liar.html

          • Hyok Kim

            “Funny. Real combat troops picked the M16A1 over L1A1s”

            Real combat troops don’t get to pick and choose. They use whatever they are issued whether they like it or not. If you really had served in the army (as you claim), you should know this.

          • Kivaari

            You didn’t get the connection to my earlier Brit reference, where SAS troops, Aussies and others took M16A1s instead of standard issue. Those troops, like our SEALs picked what they wanted for the mission. Like our forces using Glock and SIGs over M9s. Some men get choices.

          • Hyok Kim

            So unless in specops, they’re not combat troops? Besides even SAS troops get issued weapons from above for their own requirements, SAS troop don’t choose their own weapons themselves, otherwise how can there be standardization for logistics purpose?

            “Brits, Aussies, NZ specops forces seem to like M4 and older M16s. SAS even chose them for the Falklands War. Why? well, despite what Jerry says, those men know better.” – Kivaari

            “How many people in the military world wide have the skills of Jerry? You could probably count them on one amputated hand.” – Kivaari

            http://www.wikihow.com/Spot-a-Pathological-Liar

          • Kivaari

            What army has adopted the F2000? How many armies adopted bullpups, but issue M4 or FNC or some other conventional rifle to its special operators? How many US special operations fighters choose bullpups? They can have anything they want. Brits, Aussies, NZ specops forces seem to like M4 and older M16s. SAS even chose them for the Falklands War. Why? well, despite what Jerry says, those men know better.

          • Hyok Kim

            “They can have anything they want.” – Kivaari

            Not true. It’s decided by the higher brass. The higher brass listen to the request from the troops below. They still have to meet the budget, and logistics requirements.

            “What army has adopted the F2000? How many armies adopted bullpups, but issue M4 or FNC or some other conventional rifle to its special operators? How many US special operations fighters choose bullpups?” – Kivaari

            Bullpups are ideal for confined spaces, cqb to medium distance, offensive scenarios. Not general overall offensive/defensive scenarios. The requirement for the troops you talk about are different from the ideal battle environment for bullpups.

            Like I said before, I had already said bullpups were not my favorite weapons sine my requirement would be basically defensive, not offensive.

          • Kivaari

            Then JWTF is your point? I hate bullpups and like M16 based rifles, FALs, HK MP5A2s and even awkward Uzi standards and Minis.
            I wish I still had all of my NFA guns. Wish in one hand and s##t in the other and what do I get? Some fool that quotes everyone, as if quotes mean something of value.

          • You know, I don’t remember ever seeing Jerry Miculek run a bullpup in his 3-Gun matches. I suspect his “like” of bullpups is more of a genuine enthusiasm for anything that shoots.

          • Kivaari

            Even JM knows it isn’t good to handicap your abilities.

          • Hyok Kim

            ……..and what does that have to do with views regarding the advantages of bullpup in a given situation? If you disagree with JM, and you can articulate where and why he’s wrong, you’re welcome to post that. I want to know.

          • Kivaari

            Nothing, Since Mr. Watters is discussing triggers and handgun stocks.

          • Hyok Kim

            “Nothing, Since Mr. Watters is discussing triggers and handgun stocks.” – Kivaari

            “You know, I don’t remember ever seeing Jerry Miculek run a bullpup in his 3-Gun matches. I suspect his “like” of bullpups is more of a genuine enthusiasm for anything that shoots.” – Daniel E. Watters

            http://www.newhealthguide.org/Pathological-Liar.html

          • Kivaari

            Hey kid, he and I were talking triggers, smooth v. serrated. Piss off.

          • Hyok Kim

            “Nothing, Since Mr. Watters is discussing triggers and handgun stocks.” – Kivaari

            “You know, I don’t remember ever seeing Jerry Miculek run a bullpup in his 3-Gun matches. I suspect his “like” of bullpups is more of a genuine enthusiasm for anything that shoots.” – Daniel E. Watters

            http://www.newhealthguide.org/

          • Hyok Kim
          • Hyok Kim

            Bullpups are not designed for 3 gun competition anymore than 3 gun competition shotguns are designed for CQB

            JM clearly explained where bullpups shine over conventional battle carbines.

            You can see if for yourself.

            “I suspect his “like” of bullpups is more of a genuine enthusiasm for anything that shoots.”

            Did he ever express his enthusiasm for smooth radiused trigger?

          • Jerry’s personal preferences in trigger shape and grip contours probably won’t lose him any current or future sponsorships.

          • Hyok Kim

            I bought Jerry’s training video, and read other articles Jerry has done over the years. Jerry clearly favored serrated, non-radiused trigger, and explained why so. He still stands by the same principle to this day.

            As for pivoting vs. sliding trigger, Jerry said he could get used to sliding trigger if he wanted to, even though he’s more familiar with pivoting trigger, but in the bullpup test he ran, he shot equally with both pivoting and sliding triggers.

            As for grip contours Jerry favors,

            http://www.hogueinc.com/specialty/jerry-miculek

            You have the right to speculate what Jerry thinks, Mr. Watters, but why even bother when you can just read about what Jerry thinks?

          • I am well aware of Jerry’s opinions on those issues. He first appeared on my radar back in the mid-1980s when he started burning down table records at the Second Chance Bowling Pin Shoot with his 8-3/8″ barreled S&W Model 27.

          • To expand on my earlier comment, serrated triggers used to be standard on S&W revolvers until at least the late 1980s. However even then, S&W offered smooth triggers as an option. Now, it is the opposite. Likewise, Hogue would make you a wood Monogrip without checkering or finger grooves on special order long before Jerry Miculek started marketing them.

            That said, what fits Jerry Miculek may not fit someone else. I seem to remember a late 1990s/early2000s article or interview with Jerry where he mentioned that he had been surprised to discover that his wife Kay had a long trigger in her custom STI while he preferred a short trigger in the same model. It came down to the thickness of Jerry’s palm and fingers versus Kay’s.

          • Kivaari

            Serrated triggers make sense in the real world. Competition shooters loved smooth triggers since they shot huge amounts of ammo. The serrated triggers hurt their fingers. When revolvers ruled, cops knew serrated triggers had a function, to grip the finger while wet with water or blood. I viewed the change to smooth as being a wrong move. But, then revolvers started being pushed aside as semi-autos took over. Like M1911s where sport shooters started demanding long and even smooth triggers, along with flat housings, all in defiance of common sense.

          • Hyok Kim

            “That said, what fits Jerry Miculek may not fit someone else. I seem to remember a late 1990s/early2000s article or interview with Jerry where he mentioned that he had been surprised to discover that his wife Kay had a long trigger in her custom STI while he preferred a short trigger in the same model. It came down to the thickness of Jerry’s palm and fingers versus Kay’s.”

            ……but that doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with the grip shape, but size. Of course, Jerry has different hand size than mine.

            JM grip is more about shape rather than size. After all is said and done, Jerry is the man to beat, not those who disagree with Jerry.

          • Hyok Kim

            “I am well aware of Jerry’s opinions on those issues.”

            “Jerry’s personal preferences in trigger shape and grip contours probably won’t lose him any current or future sponsorships.”

            Can you tell me why Jerry has those opinions in your own words?

          • My memory is that Jerry likes to use the pad of his trigger finger, and doesn’t want his finger to slide side-to-side across the trigger face.

            In contrast, the smooth stocks allow him to readjust his grip on the fly in case he grasped it improperly during the draw. it also allows him to move his hands off of the stock quickly during the reload.

          • Hyok Kim

            “My memory is that Jerry likes to use the pad of his trigger finger, ….”

            True, and do you know why?

            “…..and doesn’t want his finger to slide side-to-side across the trigger face.”

            True, again! and do you know why?

            “In contrast, the smooth stocks allow him to readjust his grip on the fly in case he grasped it improperly during the draw. it also allows him to move his hands off of the stock quickly during the reload.”

            JM grip is available in both smooth and checkered finish. Besides if all Jerry wanted was smooth finished grip, he could have simply got smooth finished version of other grip available.

          • Again, my memory of it is that he wants to keep the trigger coming straight back, and not risk pushing or pulling it to one side or the other.

            The checkered Miculek stocks are a fairly new offering. When the Miculek stocks were first marketed through “Bang, Inc.” and Clark Custom, they were only available as smooth.

            Please forgive my use of weasel words. I’m juggling around a century of dead tree documents on various firearms, plus my additional online research. I tend not to trust my memory anymore, and prefer to have the exact documents on hand before I make a definitive statement.

          • Hyok Kim

            “Again, my memory of it is that he wants to keep the trigger coming straight back, and not risk pushing or pulling it to one side or the other.”

            True, so there is your answer to “”Jerry’s personal preferences in trigger shape and grip contours probably won’t lose him any current or future sponsorships.”

            Jerry keeps his trigger that way for a reason, a very good reason, as Jerry said himself, even hundredth of a second counts in the competition. If Jerry starts losing competitions, there goes sponsorship.

            After all, Jerry is no Anna Kournikova. It’s not like he’s getting sponsorship for his looks.

            “The checkered Miculek stocks are a fairly new offering. They didn’t appear on the Miculek.com website until around August 2013. When the Miculek stocks were first marketed through “Bang, Inc.” and Clark Custom, they were only available as smooth.”

            True. However, my point was JM grip was not just about smooth finish for fast handling. If that had been the purpose, Jerry simply could have got himself smooth version of other grips.

            JM grip was designed to minimize both the grip circumference, and grip shape/angle so that even if one got the grip less than ideal form/position initially, one could easily adjust it on the fly.

            So it’s not just about the finish, it’s grip circumference, and the grip angle/shape.

            Btw. Even Jerry himself admitted in his best day, the grip would not make much of a difference, but one doesn’t get to choose to compete in one’s best day, you know, the murphy’s laws.

            Jerry would not win as frequently as he did without the trigger/grip he favors, and the sponsorship could go to someone else who won more frequently than Jerry.

            “Please forgive my use of weasel words. I’m juggling around a century of dead tree documents on various firearms, plus my additional online research. I tend not to trust my memory anymore, and prefer to have the exact documents on hand before I make a definitive statement.”

            Me, too, as well. Personally, I don’t care too much if someone misspoke so long as it’s an honest mistake, but I don’t like it if someone intentionally engages in deception in order to mislead ala Ayoob.

            Btw. I am not that much fond of Chuck Taylor, either, I don’t think he’s as deceptive/conniving/manipulative as Ayoob, but he did work with Ayoob for a long time, and being a former Marine, and a cop, I am pretty sure he knew what Ayoob was, but pretended an integrity he I am pretty sure didn’t have so that he could make more money and win more fame (so long as Ayoob served as a useful prop.)

          • I suspect even if Jerry stopped being competitive, S&W would keep him around simply because he has a big personality and is an excellent “brand ambassador.” Raw shooting ability will get your foot in the door, but your showmanship will keep you there once your talent has been eclipsed. My earlier point was that a sponsored shooter worth his (or her) salt knows not to badmouth the people signing their paychecks and providing their equipment. I seem to remember a pair of US employees of an Italian firm who also competed successfully with variants of the company’s flagship service pistol. At some point, a company executive kept pushing them to campaign the company’s first polymer frame pistol instead, which they they refused to do. Not terribly long after, the same pair ended up working for the US subsidiary of a Swiss-German firm instead, and they started shooting the same competitions with variant of that company’s flagship service pistols. Coincidence?

            Gun writers and editors face the same pressure. One publisher famously joked “Articles? Aren’t they what we try to squeeze in between the advertising?” Readers complain that they don’t see negative reviews. The reality is that most writers and editors will simply spike an article if the product doesn’t perform. Unfortunately, problems begin when a manufacturer with a large ad budget throws its weight around demanding positive coverage. I know that American Handgunner’s former editor often bragged that a large Brazilian manufacturer removed its ads when he refused to cover their products. A certain Austrian manufacturer’s PR staff hasn’t been shy about threatening publishers and editors with removing their ads if critical writers were kept on staff. Not all publishers or editors are willing to risk that. So, the writer will either soft-soap the negatives, or the editor will intercede and rewrite the article.

          • Hyok Kim

            “I suspect even if Jerry stopped being competitive, S&W would keep him around simply because he has a big personality and is an excellent “brand ambassador.” Raw shooting ability will get your foot in the door, but your showmanship will keep you there once your talent has been eclipsed.”

            You’re right, that would be male version of Anna’s charm.

            “My earlier point was that a sponsored shooter worth his (or her) salt knows not to badmouth the people signing their paychecks and providing their equipment.”

            True enough, however, refusing to say good things about the sponsor’s products is not the same thing as badmouthing sponsor’s products. Shooters worth their salt could do serious damage to their future sponsorship marketability by saying good things about products they know to be junk.

            “I seem to remember a pair of US employees of an Italian firm who also competed successfully with variants of the company’s flagship service pistol. At some point, a company executive kept pushing them to campaign the company’s first polymer frame pistol instead, which they they refused to do. Not terribly long after, the same pair ended up working for the US subsidiary of a Swiss-German firm instead, and they started shooting the same competitions with variants of that company’s flagship service pistols. Coincidence?”

            Good for them. They now have earned credibility. They increased their own personal brand.

            “Gun writers and editors face the same pressure. One publisher famously joked “Articles? Aren’t they what we try to squeeze in between the advertising?” Readers complain that they don’t see negative reviews. The reality is that most writers and editors will simply spike an article if the product doesn’t perform. Unfortunately, problems begin when a manufacturer with a large ad budget throws its weight around demanding positive coverage. I know that American Handgunner’s former editor often bragged that a large Brazilian manufacturer removed its ads when he refused to cover their products. A certain Austrian manufacturer’s PR staff hasn’t been shy about threatening publishers and editors with removing their ads if critical writers were kept on staff. ”

            All true. On this one, bigger blame should be placed on ‘fanboys’., who cannot withstand any kind of criticism no matter how objective, non-partisan, and constructive it may be, on their favorite range toys.

            A certain Austrian brand pistol fanboys tend to be the worst of the lot. They, more than anyone cannot take any kind of criticism of that brand, even when they are constructive.

            There was a time when this particular brand served a unique, and very useful purpose, but that day has come and gone. Nowadays, one has far better alternatives than that particular brand.

            Personally, if I were to select a striker fired pistol, I would choose a German company with far longer tradition, and reputation for excellent workmanship and quality materials over that Austrian brand. Quality-wise, performance-wise, cost-wise, it’s no brainer.

            “Not all publishers or editors are willing to risk that. So, the writer will either soft-soap the negatives, or the editor will intercede and rewrite the article.”

            True enough. One thing to look for when the writers/editors are being objective is whether they tend to flaunt their paper credentials, whether real or imaginary, or do they hide behind famous institutions and/or individual’s reputations, instead of explaining why they think so highly of certain products in functional terms that are relevant to the user’s functional requirements.

            Again, the worst offender in this regard is Ayoob.

          • Kivaari

            Hyok. Did it ever dawn on you that Thompson wrote more than one article in several different magazines? I read the one where he panned it. ALL bullpups are awkward, not just the fat and awkward FS2000. The only bullpup I have shot has been the AUG using a 16″ and 24″ barrel with the lesser scope on the 16″. As well as a 9mm conversion with an early can. Getting a nice Kahles 8x on the AUG couldn’t get it past the trigger. Common AR15s out shot the rifle I tested.
            So in my experience, based on handling those bullpups that I have handled, I’d never buy one. Having 4 Mini 14 GB models has more appeal to me than owning one overpriced bullpup because it is cool to own. That said, I have several AR15/M4 variants that out shoot every bullpup where the author has the nerve to mention the group size.
            Bottom line: Bullpups are awkward. I know no one that likes the trigger pulls. Few authors will give a real group size, though I am sure some are fired with a keyboard. NO one has honestly found magazine exchanges to be as easily done as an AR.
            I do like better triggers and have Geissele SSA triggers in two rifles.

          • Hyok Kim

            “Hyok. Did it ever dawn on you that Thompson wrote more than one article in several different magazines?” – Kivaari

            ……but you mentioned only one article regarding FS2000 done by Thompson.

            “Re-read Thompsons article. He panned the 2000.” – Kivaari

            “I read the one where he panned it. ALL bullpups are awkward, not just the fat and awkward FS2000.” – Kivaari

            “Let’s talk advantages first: Bullpup rifles offer a full power rifle in a package that’s closer in size to an SMG than a typical battle rifle. As a result, bullpups are very handy for use in confined spaces. They can be handled with one hand while opening doors or performing other tasks. Despite their short overall length, bullpup rifles have standard length barrels, which give good ballistic performance. Although bullpup carbines appear to be somewhat ungainly, most are very ergonomically designed and quite comfortable to shoot.

            One reason I’m such a fan of the F2000 and FS2000 is that they have the good points of other bullpup carbines without the negatives. Oh, it does need a good sling for extended carry, but other than that, the design is very good.” – Leroy Thompson

            “So in my experience, based on handling those bullpups that I have handled, I’d never buy one.” – Kivaari

            Both Jerry Miculek and Leroy Thompson like the handling qualities of bullpups in confined spaces. Both appreciate FS2000 especially in that regard. Maybe you can give them pointers on how to choose weapons and how to utilize them, but first you’ll have to give them your real name lest they think your experience is keyboard experience.

            “Bottom line: Bullpups are awkward. I know no one that likes the trigger pulls. Few authors will give a real group size, though I am sure some are fired with a keyboard.” – Kivaari

            All the groups you claimed to have shot in FBD, have they not been fired with a keyboard?

        • Kivaari

          Read the article by TFB.

          • Hyok Kim

            I had already read it long before this thread. Btw. It doesn’t say much about combat merit. Why don’t you just produce the original article (so you claim) by Thompson and end this irritation (for you) once and for all?

          • Kivaari

            Again, what’s your point? In regards to the 5.56mm v. the 6.8mm, I suggest your read the article on TFB. It puts some myths to rest.
            My preference for the 5.56mm shouldn’t bother anyone. I liked seeing the article, as I was considering building a 6.8, and decided the myth didn’t merit it. So I started another couple of 5.56mm projects, enjoying the much lower cost of ammo.

          • Hyok Kim

            Another word, there never was the original article you’re talking about?

      • Kivaari

        TFB did a great article about the 6.8 v. 5.56. I’ll stick with the 5.56.

        • Hyok Kim

          “TFB did a great article about the 6.8 v. 5.56. I’ll stick with the 5.56.” – Kivaari

          “No more keyboard groups needed.” – Kivaari

          • Kivaari

            Have you learned what a keyboard group is when using a typewriter or computer keyboard to fire groups? Ask some old time gun writers and they may tell you the truth.

          • Hyok Kim

            “Re-read Thompsons article. He panned the 2000.” – Kivaari

            “I read the one where he panned it. ALL bullpups are awkward, not just the fat and awkward FS2000.” – Kivaari

            One reason I’m such a fan of the F2000 and FS2000 is that they have the good points of other bullpup carbines without the negatives. Oh, it does need a good sling for extended carry, but other than that, the design is very good.” – Leroy Thompson

            http://www.newhealthguide.org/Pathological-Liar.html

    • Grindstone50k

      So much edginess.

    • Hyok Kim

      You might like 5.45×39 better. I read that they were designed to be more reliable, feeding and extraction wise.

      • Kivaari

        The improvements achieved by the 5.45 was over the existing 7.62×39 and the AKM. The5.45 has little to make it superior to the AR family. The round does chamber easily, the rim was made stronger than the M43 round. Accuracy compared to the AKM was due to the effective muzzle brake and the flatter shooting round. Soviets claimed it improved how well the soldiers improved over the 7.62. They claim it is 2.5 times better. Put the basic AKM, AK74 and an AR in a match, just to 300 meters, and the AR wins. If the Russian could just put decent sights on the AK, it would make a huge improvement. The Finns and Israelis did so and created the best AKs ever.

        • Hyok Kim

          “Re-read Thompsons article. He panned the 2000.” – Kivaari

          “One reason I’m such a fan of the F2000 and FS2000 is that they have the good points of other bullpup carbines without the negatives.

          Final Notes

          I initially wanted to try the FS2000 because I had shot the military F2000 in Belgium some time ago and wanted to see how well it could be designed as a semi-auto. I think the semi turned out exceedingly well. FNH offers a truly different semi-auto battle rifle for those of us who like “black rifles” (though the FS2000 is available in green as well).

          I like the FS2000 and the SpecterDR a lot and highly recommend the FS2000 for tactical use as well as for enjoyment among sport shooters who like military-type rifles.” – Leroy Thompson

          http://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/fnh-fs2000-tactical-223/

          “The improvements achieved by the 5.45 was over the existing 7.62×39 and the AKM. The5.45 has little to make it superior to the AR family.” – Kivaari

          • Kivaari

            Listen up. I don’t like it or any other bullpup. I’ll take an ordinary mid-length AR15 carbine over any puppy. I just read several reviews of the FS2000, and everyone had excuses for not telling the readers how well they shot. Thompsons original article told readers the FN was awkward and inaccurate. Over the last 13 years, I suspect FNH has improved the quality. After negative press and no serious sales they needed to do something. Like AKs, there is no bolt hold open. Magazines need to be pulled out, thanks to the gasket. I get it. No matter how much lipstick you put on that puppy will it ever handle well. Breaking off charging handles is a big no no. Having safeties break is another no no. On the web at LearnAboutGuns.com, it was too cold to fire good groups. Months later he still avoided mentioning group sizes, just hitting steel targets. On CY6, the writer mentions double feed and jams requiring varous slow methods to clear them. His bottom line is it isn’t good enough to replace an AR15. No group sizes mentioned. In Defense Review he liked it, but avoided mentioning group sizes. On FNForum.net He liked it, but broke charging handles. Had a hard time mounting a sling, disliked the gasket retaining the magazine. Had light primer strieps, with the first guns ~3-400 slam fired but were recalled and fized with a more unreliable FP and added spring. He had so-so accuracy. Once more no mention of group size. If I remember right Thompson got 7-8 inch groups with his first rifle.
            With a longer barrel it would make a good club. I’ll keep my ARs.

          • Hyok Kim

            “Thompsons original article told readers the FN was awkward and inaccurate” – Kivaari

            “Let’s talk advantages first: Bullpup rifles offer a full power rifle in a package that’s closer in size to an SMG than a typical battle rifle. As a result, bullpups are very handy for use in confined spaces. They can be handled with one hand while opening doors or performing other tasks. Despite their short overall length, bullpup rifles have standard length barrels, which give good ballistic performance. Although bullpup carbines appear to be somewhat ungainly, most are very ergonomically designed and quite comfortable to shoot.

            One reason I’m such a fan of the F2000 and FS2000 is that they have the good points of other bullpup carbines without the negatives. Oh, it does need a good sling for extended carry, but other than that, the design is very good.

            Range Time

            I’ve been using my FS2000 with the SpecterDR for a few months now and like the combo. In fact, I find that when on my way to the range to test other rifles I’ll often throw the FS2000 in my truck and fire a couple of magazines through it as well. For me, the FS2000/SpecterDR combo works great from 25 meters or less, and out to 300 meters. The compact FS2000 handles quickly for CQB-type shooting on multiple targets at close range, where the wide field of view allows very quick target acquisition as one scans an area. I also find that at ranges from 100 to 300 meters, I do just as well on the 4x setting. With SS109 ammo I have shot sub-MOA 3-shot groups at 100 yards with the best around 0.75 of an inch.” – Leroy Thompson

          • Kivaari

            AND your point is to simply irritate others as you rely on others for information. Have you ever read conflicting articles on the same subject from the same writer.

          • Hyok Kim

            Yes, I have, especially Ayoob. I am not responsible for your irritation, since all you have to do is to provide the original article you’re talking about.

          • Kivaari

            If you don’t trust me, then don’t. I don’t trust Thompson. I CAN’T find the old article. I remember his views then, and it was enough to convince me that I would not want one. Then when my favorite dealer had one, I took his advice. “Don’t waste your money, it doesn’t shoot”.

          • Hyok Kim
          • Hyok Kim

            “Thompsons original article told readers the FN was awkward and inaccurate.” – Kivaari

            “Range Time

            I’ve been using my FS2000 with the SpecterDR for a few months now and like the combo. In fact, I find that when on my way to the range to test other rifles I’ll often throw the FS2000 in my truck and fire a couple of magazines through it as well. For me, the FS2000/SpecterDR combo works great from 25 meters or less, and out to 300 meters. The compact FS2000 handles quickly for CQB-type shooting on multiple targets at close range, where the wide field of view allows very quick target acquisition as one scans an area. I also find that at ranges from 100 to 300 meters, I do just as well on the 4x setting. With SS109 ammo I have shot sub-MOA 3-shot groups at 100 yards with the best around 0.75 of an inch.” – Leroy Thompson

          • Kivaari

            Yes, so what’s your point?

          • Hyok Kim

            Why don’t you quote the original article you’re talking about?

          • Kivaari

            Since I can’t find it. That’s why. Have you ever done anything in real life where guns are a normal part of life – where lives can be effected by how you are ready for action.

          • Hyok Kim

            Why can’t you find it?

          • Kivaari

            What is your point? Or do you simply like quoting other people? Regardless of what Thompson wrote at a particular point doesn’t matter. In the article I read he panned the rifle. In later articles he sure could change his mind.

          • Hyok Kim

            So how can I find the article you’re talking about?

        • Hyok Kim

          “The improvements achieved by the 5.45 was over the existing 7.62×39 and the AKM. The 5.45 has little to make it superior to the AR family.” – Kivaari

          “Re-read Thompsons article. He panned the 2000.” – Kivaari

          “”One reason I’m such a fan of the F2000 and FS2000 is that they have the good points of other bullpup carbines without the negatives.” – Leroy Thompson

          • Kivaari

            What is your point?

          • Hyok Kim

            I cannot find any reference to your so-called Thompson’s original article where he panned 2000. Can you help me how I can find it?

          • Kivaari

            Why would I care?

          • Kivaari

            Good.

          • Hyok Kim

            “Re-read Thompsons article. He panned the 2000.” – Kivaari

            “”One reason I’m such a fan of the F2000 and FS2000 is that they have the good points of other bullpup carbines without the negatives.” – Leroy Thompson

            http://www.wikihow.com/Spot-a-Pathological-Liar

          • Kivaari

            You have it wrong. Read Ezell’s “AK47 Story”.

  • Darkpr0

    Designing a product by looks before the actually important bits is not only common, it’s pretty much the norm as you go higher up the investment-size scale. If a large investment is desired, you pretty much need to market whatever it is you’re selling and one of the most effective ways of doing that is visually. If you’re trying to procure something from a businessman or politician and you say “Well I need this investment for x million dollars” you’re almost guaranteed they’re not going to be interested unless you can at the very least show them what they’re getting for their money. If you find the building office for a certain condo project or whatever other building where you live you’ll most often find a model of said object there with a beautiful outside, and no inside. The reason is because they’ve been using that model to sell the idea, and they’ll work the inside out later. This frequently causes problems when the engineers have to go back and say “well, this isn’t REALLY possible” and apologies have to be made.

    Guns are no different. If you want to sell a lot of things, it’s a substantial investment. Especially with large military contracts being sold to government committees that are not able to debate the technical aspects of a purchase; they’re way more easily influenced by how a product looks. We use this all the time in industry: if it looks good, it works well. Obviously this is a fallacy but it’s a marketing tool that’s used all the time, much to the chagrin of the engineers responsible for making the stupid thing work.

    Also the Tavor was sung in Canada because it was one of the first bullpups available, and it was Non-Restricted. The AUG is Prohibited, the FS2000 is impossible to find although it’s quite a nice rifle, the Type 97 was not available (and was considered vaporware). It was the only game in Bullpuptown and everyone was just so happy they could take their evil rifle out and shoot it whenever they wanted by virtue of being NR.

    • Darkpr0, it’s very common in the wider industrial world, it is just much less common in the firearms world. The only two big examples I can think of offhand being the Tavor and XM8.

    • Hyok Kim

      “Also the Tavor was sung in Canada because it was one of the first bullpups available, and it was Non-Restricted. The AUG is Prohibited, the FS2000 is impossible to find although it’s quite a nice rifle, the Type 97 was not available (and was considered vaporware).”

      …now I see why. Until you told me I never could figure it out why Canadians were goo goo ga ga about Tavor.

  • I would say that designing the aesthetics first definitely are. Designing something from the outside in with emphasis on the user is not bad, however everything else should take a backseat to how cute or cool something appears.

  • Bear The Grizzly

    I very much dislike the M&P Shield, there. I was completely ran over by the hype train on that one.

    • USMC03Vet

      It feels real cheap in the hand for me.

    • KestrelBike

      I really like mine. Immediate accuracy right out of the gate. I trust it completely and it’s my EDC.

  • This feels like a great podcast, and simply okay video…

    • Edward, I asked Steve about doing a podcast, and it was a non-starter. I did do a couple podcasts for Firearms Radio Network, though. 🙂

      • Haunted Puppeteer

        This type of discussion would be great fodder for a podcast. A podcast would also cost less and take less time to produce.

        Not to mention geographical location would make no difference, you could pick a time and have anyone on, no matter where they were. And you could have guests! From anywhere! Science!

        The real question is, why isn’t there a TFB podcast?

        • My answer is “there should be”. Email the editor, bro.

        • Hyok Kim

          Maybe because there might be a problem with ad?

  • Here’s da pruf:

    http://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/thebangswitch/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Tavor_zps8276b7a0.jpg

    That is the original Tavor concept drawing. The aesthetics were dreamt up by a company called “Versia Military Design”, their website is here. Here’s an article by Bangswitch on the subject, and here’s an article of ours from earlier this year.

    Here’s a fluff video by Versia:

    And here’s what Versia Military says about the Tavor:

    “Created to replace the ageing M-16 and Galil, The Tavor is the first assault rifle in Israel’s history that involved industrial designers in its development process. The design brief required a bullpup version, which allows a short overall length without sacrificing barrel length.

    The basic inspiration for the design came from the futuristic-looking Austrian made AUG Steyr, but with a much more menacing appearance. A shell made entirely of composite materials allowed the full freedom to sculpt the product according to experiment results and desired design.”

    The actual mechanics of the Tavor appear to be adapted from the Desert Eagle pistol, of all things.

    This wasn’t the first time a firearm’s appearance has been the result of an industrial design firm (the XM8 is another good example from the same time period), but it is one of the outstanding examples that I am aware of where the appearance was developed substantially before or during the development of the mechanics. The Versia literature mentions how the shell was designed when there was still some uncertainty as to what exactly would be put inside it!

    • nadnerbus

      That’s fascinating. And it makes sense too. I’ve only briefly handled one at a gun shop, but I found it to be heavy, especially at the rear, and bulky, for what is essentially another 5.56 slinger.

      Just another one of the things I love about the Stoner design. There is almost no material on the rifle that is not required for it to function. Same with an AK.

      It would be fascinating to see someone take the Tavor action, and design a streamlined, slimmed down chassis for it to ride in. Something that prioritizes weight savings and a clean profile. But then, you’d probably end up with an AUG…

      • Squirreltakular

        My thoughts, exactly. I like the Tavor, but it doesn’t have the same sense of bare-bones functionality that my AR and AK have. Maybe it’s the inherent distrust of something covered in plastic, much like the cowlings on modern engines.

    • Just say’n

      “the first assault rifle in Israel’s history that involved industrial designers in its development process”….yup that’s the problem right there. Looks great, shoots like crap. Having worked with ID’s my entire career I can say that form should always follow function.

      John M. Browning never worked with Industrial Designers.

    • Hyok Kim

      “Here’s a fluff video by Versia:”

      ….at least I like their choice of background music.

      “but it is one of the outstanding examples that I am aware of where the appearance was developed substantially before or during the development of the mechanics. The Versia literature mentions how the shell was designed when there was still some uncertainty as to what exactly would be put inside it!”

      Functions should accommodate the form?

  • hkguns

    Well, I used to like watching forgotten weapons. However, not liking the HK91 is a mortal sin and will have to be unsubscribing from future episodes of that content.

    Funny, I own three of the four candidates covered here that are not pistols. I happen to agree with the dislike for the XD for the most part.

    • USMC03Vet

      HK weapons are some of the most overrated today.

      • Kid Charlemagne

        that HK91 looked pretty bada## in Heat when Val Kilmer was using it

        • Mr. FN

          Didn’t he also run a FAL 50.61? The gunplay in that movie was spectacular.

          • Yohei556

            Yup, the FAL was Tom Sizemore when they hit the armored car.

        • DAN V.

          the parking lot rooftop sniping scene

          • mbrd

            i thought it was a dilapidated drive in movie theater (???)

      • Yohei556

        and with that comment you will piss off videogamers and people with more money than common sense!

    • Kivaari

      I happen to agree with not liking the 91. I fell for the hype. It took me buying 3 of them, hoping to find one of those sub-MOA rifles. I never found one. The 91s I had would not shoot better than an open sighted AKM. At 100 yards it was hard to get 3.5 inch groups, with or without a scope. A model 94 Winchester with a William’s 5D aperture sight would do just over 1 MOA. The MP5 and M94 SBRs were not far behind the M91s.

    • gunsandrockets

      My one experience shooting a genuine HK91 I came away with the same impressions as Ian: heavy, clumsy, crappy trigger, heavy recoil.

      Oddly though, I recently dry fired a PTR-91 and it had a better trigger than a typical AR.

      • Dave C

        Me too… I concur: heavy trigger, heavy recoil, not very good ergonomics. I did like the sights. For me, a downside of the HK91 was the sheer expense and knowing that it was made out of über-thick and awesome German sheet metal stampings with ausgezeichnet German welds… But that it was basically a cheap-to-produce service rifle that commanded a high price because it had HK stamped on it, and everyone knows that “in a world of compromise, some don’t” marketing hype… I’ll never understand HK attitudes toward civilian gun owners either. I mean, if I worked over there, every gun shop in America would have a G41 with AR mag capability and a 6-position AR style buttstock for waay cheaper than the “other brand” AR. But that’s just me.

        • Tom

          To be fair to HK they have been burned pretty badly in the past with US and German gun control legislation which sort of explains their reluctance to embrace the US civilian market.

          As for being high priced well that’s the free market if people will pay it who are HK to disagree and try and sell it cheaper.

          The G41 well it was never going to compete with the AR15 at the price point it came to market at – even if they could of sold them on the US civilian market which by the time the G41 was out was impossible due to the import ban. Even if the cost were the same they did not offer any thing better over a tried and true platform. Plus as bad as the charging handle on the AR15 is its still in a better poistion than on the HK rifles.

  • USMC03Vet

    FN FAL with a close second Glock.
    *the sound of millions of rustled jimmies*

  • asdffdsa

    Ian: “I don’t like the length of pole”

    Why can’t I stop giggling about this?

    • Kid Charlemagne

      that’s what she said

  • sean

    On my KSG i put the MAKO Tactical grip with the Flashlight Adapter. It is comfortable, i have never short stroked the action, and i have never felt a safety concern.

  • Just Sayin’

    Two guns I owned that I didn’t like and promptly sold: a Tanfolgio SA .22 revolver with a loose barrel and a Beretta Manx Auto in .22 short that never failed to jam 3x per magazine. Probably just coincidence they were both Italian.

  • Lance

    My top 4 hated weapons I agree H&K 91, too much recoil poor ergonomics cost too much. SCAR L, of course AUG for its none ergonomics and the SiG-226 are my most hated weapons.

  • Shawn

    Have to totally agree with Ian. I fired the G3 in the 80s, during a joint firearm familiarization day, while stationed in Grafenwöhr Germany. As a left hander there was nothing about the rifle to make me a fan. It was still a great day at the range, and it made me appreciate my issued M16A1 (to this day still my favorite firearm) even more.

  • 6.5x55Swedish

    Remington 700. It is quite costly for what you get. I doesn’t shoot well if it is too cold. If you get something in the barrel it will blow up big time.

    • iksnilol

      To be fair, most guns blow up if they get something in the barrel.

      • 6.5x55Swedish

        Yes. But most guns that sell for that price over here tend to just burst in the top directing it away from the hand. And it isn’t usually an explotion but more like a crack that vent out the hot gas. They did a test a few years ago with the 10 most common new bolt action rifles in in Sweden and the 700 and another gun (a Browning I think) was the only one that would cause damage to the shooter. The 700 was the worst gun in nearly all the categories but even if it did ok in those the barrel explotion would have cut a hand clean off which in not ok at all.

        • iksnilol

          Didn’t know that. Of American guns I prefer Savage. Cheap and does what I demand.

  • Criton

    Running the KSG in 3-gun has never been an issue. But I keep my hand from the end as well. I use a short vertical grip to add leverage for pulling the pump back and hooking my thumb behind it to bring it forward. But hey its not for everyone.

  • PeterK

    I would not say the “aesthetics” were designed first as much as the ergonomics. The function of the whole package was thought out, and then the internals were fitted in that package. It’s not that backwards in my mind.

  • Paul B.

    Am I the only one who doesn’t like S&W J-frames? Crappy sights, crappy triggers, and recoil with any decent self defense load–in the lightweight models–is nasty, at least to me. The steel frame ones are much more comfortable from a recoil standpoint but they feel like a brick, heavier than a compact single stack polymer 9mm with less capacity, slower reloading, etc etc.

    • Hyok Kim

      For civilian self-defense for people with small hands and short fingers, J-frame is ideal.

      • Kivaari

        Many cops (non-civilians?) carry Centennials as back up guns. They work like a Glock, pull the trigger and it goes bang.

    • Kivaari

      J-frame revolvers in a pocket holster just disappear. They work where and when hiding a belt holstered gun just wont work. The little Glocks and the competition are small, and fit a pocket, but leave the outline of a pistol in your pocket. A Mae West image, where she asks is that a gun in your pocket or are you just happy to see me. Two of my administrators bought Glock 26s, thinking they’d be good back ups. They traded them off for Glock 19s in belt holsters. I’ve done the same, having idiotically buying 2-G26s and 2-G27s only producing the same results I had with the first one. Too big and box-like, so they needed holsters. J-frames do kick, but when it is a surprise to the bad guy, since you look unarmed, that is what counts. I don’t know anyone that spent or spends much time shooting j-frames. They just pack them.

  • Dan

    Ironically being a lefty I found I liked the hk91/ptr91 ergos. Just go up and push the magazine release and then charge it turning the gun charging handle up or getting the handle back and hk slapping it. I agree it can balance odd but felt recoil clicked better then a fal. Not a bloody clue why and accuracy was better. I agree on the tavor though if you get used to the AUG reloads to me it shines more then the tavor. Although a few mods and i think the tavor can be on pace or be the better gun. Shot both bought the AUG. But thats one guys viewpoint.

    • Kivaari

      What kind of groups would the 91s shoot? I had 3 and could never get better than 3.5 inches, with iron sights or scopes. That was in the same range as AKs. Not good enough to keep my interest, except I re-visited them every 5 years or so, hoping to find one as good as all the magazine articles. I preferred the FAL.

  • Dave

    Tactical shotguns.
    By the time you gain fire superiority and can close to neutralize a threat you are half out of ammo. Assuming you aren’t speed whiz 3gunner at quad loading it’s gonna take a time-out to top off.
    Slow shot recovery, high recoil, low capacity, slow to reload and excessive length which makes no sense for cqb.
    “But it makes a cool sound when you rack it that ‘scrzzz’ everybody!”
    You’ve just given away your position and are ripe for pot shots.
    But that’s just me and my rant.

    • Paul B.

      I agree with everything you said–a defensive shotgun should be treated as a short range, heavy caliber rifle. With buckshot it’s not like you are throwing a cloud of shot in the air and hoping a bird flies through it and gets hit with 1 or 2 pellets. Every pellet has to hit the attacker or else 1) it will be less effective and 2) you have stray rounds endangering others in the area. Slugs solve that, but why not just use a rifle to begin with?

      • Hyok Kim

        “2) you have stray rounds endangering others in the area”

        Avoiding buckshot for the reason stated is over-rated.

        http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

        • Kivaari

          I always go back to when a nearby sheriffs deputy used his 00-buck loaded shotgun to engage a kidnapper, and killed the hostage by a stray pellet. Until reduced recoil buckshot loads came out, patterns opened fast and without a predictable pattern. Before those loads came out, a standing man at 35 meters could easily be missed.

          • Preventing flyers requires protecting the pellets from deformation. Most reduced recoil buckshot loads also use harder and/or plated pellets, as well as shotcups and buffer materials.

          • Kivaari

            There was an excellent article about it in Wound Ballistics Review probably 15 years ago. I spoke with Dr. Fackler about it. He was so focused on the damage wounds cause in the body, and the repair of those wounds, he couldn’t see the tactical advantage of using a rifle instead of a shotgun. This was shortly after the deputy launched a load of buckshot at the kidnapper, resulting in the hostages death. Chances are the deputy that pulled the trigger was in the room when I broached the subject, that Fackler and I discussed it face to face. Yes, the low recoil loads offer great advantage over conventional loads, and magnum loads in particular. Keeping the pellets from deforming in the bore means tighter patterns. My 14″ tubes could keep the pellets inside a paper plate at 25m. That was nearly impossible with heavy loads.
            I stopped using slugs since bead sights could not deliver anything resembling accuracy. Then we withdrew all lethal loads from service, selected shotguns with sights, and went to rubber baton loafs exclusively. Those guns were painted yellow. The lethal long guns were either ML5s or M4s.

          • Hyok Kim

            “I always go back to when a nearby sheriffs deputy used his 00-buck loaded shotgun to engage a kidnapper, and killed the hostage by a stray pellet.”

            Police in average miss 4 out 5 shots they fire at a suspect with pistols. It is a far higher ratio of miss than 00 buck shots.

            By your reasoning, maybe LE should stop using pistols since they miss 4 out 5, huh?

          • Kivaari

            Where I come from that ratio doesn’t reflex reality. Unfortunately when NYPD is in the mix, stories like todays, where they fired 84 rounds at one man and hit him once screws up the stats.

          • Hyok Kim

            “Where I come from that ratio doesn’t reflex reality.” – Kivaari

            I am concerned about overall police (who generally have better gun training than average gun owners) shooting experience. Advice given should reflect that not how good of a shot the person giving advice is.

          • Hyok Kim

            “Where I come from that ratio doesn’t reflex reality.” – Kivaari

            “Re-read Thompsons article. He panned the 2000.” – Kivaari

            “One reason I’m such a fan of the F2000 and FS2000 is that they have the good points of other bullpup carbines without the negatives.” – Leroy Thompson

          • Kivaari

            I read his comments in a different magazine, probably in print before he saw the light and printed groups fired by his computer keyboard.

          • Kivaari

            As FNH sends him a keeper, so he writes a puff-piece. I’ve seen it.

          • Kivaari

            Not where I worked, and surrounds. A much higher hit ratio, even though few people needed to shoot. Even when Don Burke was killed, he moved to the rear of his patrol car, and fired 6 rounds into the rear window of the suspects car. After a wild chase, one of 2 suspects was hit with one buckshot pellet, in the forehead. BUT, the two shooting officers missed with all the revolver shots. Look at them cases by case. Almost every case where it was one on one or one on two, among the officers I know they hit.

          • Hyok Kim

            “Re-read Thompsons article. He panned the 2000.” – Kivaari

            “One reason I’m such a fan of the F2000 and FS2000 is that they have the good points of other bullpup carbines without the negatives.

            Final Notes

            I initially wanted to try the FS2000 because I had shot the military F2000 in Belgium some time ago and wanted to see how well it could be designed as a semi-auto. I think the semi turned out exceedingly well. FNH offers a truly different semi-auto battle rifle for those of us who like “black rifles” (though the FS2000 is available in green as well).

            I like the FS2000 and the SpecterDR a lot and highly recommend the FS2000 for tactical use as well as for enjoyment among sport shooters who like military-type rifles.” – Leroy Thompson

            http://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/fnh-fs2000-tactical-223/

          • Hyok Kim

            “Not where I worked, and surrounds. A much higher hit ratio, even though few people needed to shoot.” – Kivaari

            “Re-read Thompsons article. He panned the 2000.” – Kivaari

            “One reason I’m such a fan of the F2000 and FS2000 is that they have the good points of other bullpup carbines without the negatives.” – Leroy Thompson

          • Kivaari

            Try “The Truth About Guns. 8 MOA Tavors. That’s what is the norm in honest articles. No more keyboard groups needed.

          • Hyok Kim

            “No more keyboard groups needed.” – Kivaari

            ….and you’re not! Btw. ‘The Truth About Guns’ is not a keyboard group whereas this one is? If you think so, then why are even you here?

          • Kivaari

            Do you know what a “keyboard group”, is? It’s not a blog site, it is the size of the group fired by the particular shooter. Too many gun writers make fantastically small groups from the tested firearm. Groups so tiny that they could have only been “fired” from a computer keyboard or a typewriter.
            As for TFB, I find the writers to be pretty credible, and some of the commenters to be downright idiots. Some legitimate questions get asked and answered by some damn good people.

          • That’s just plain BS. I have one of the first Tavors out of the factory and I can assure you it’s accurate. But that’s TTAG.

          • Kivaari

            Phil, Are you lucky or has FN made changes? Even in Thompsons first article I read he got horrid groups. I only know one man owning both Tavor and FS2000, and “huge disappointment? is heard commonly. Perhaps the FS2000 received early praise or dislike, and changes were made. Like the love fest over the G36. Remember all the positive right ups? Then government hearings?
            Could the original US imports with the heavy firing pins, with slam fires, had other issues? Are all of the factory triggers bad, or do they let slip a good one now and then? I just know that after reading a couple articles and talking with an owner and user, a gun seller SOT, that warned me off of either. In his shop is where I handled them. I remain convinced they make great clubs if enough barrel is left to grab. A reason to buy the 18 inch models.

          • Kivaari

            I’ve not shot one. I squeezed the trigger on the Tavor and FN. Those rifles had horrid triggers. No Timney triggers were involved. The shop owner, one of the most knowledgeable shooters I have ever met, told me to not waste my money. The man is an SOT dealer/builder with the nicest collection of machineguns I’ve seen. I trust his judgment. As you know some guns shoot well, while the next one in line can be a flop. I used TTAG as a source that confirmed other stories I’ve looked at. FS2000 and Tavors get quite a few thumbs down, with an occasional thumbs up. I wont pay over $2000 when so many reviews are bad. I’ve wasted a fortune on black rifles.

          • Kivaari

            AND your point is?

          • Kivaari

            Your point? Do you just love quoting others?

          • Kivaari

            He hit both, killing the hostage. I stopped using slugs, as they were too erratic. 10 inches of drop in the first 100 yards. Remington 000 buck, reduced recoil worked well within the short distances intended. When people try to make the shotgun into a rifle, it fails, unless it is rifled. Then it is useless for buckshot.

          • Kivaari

            Pistols are for close range defense. It remains an often effective defense to just fire back. I think you miss the difference between the shooting range and the real world. Have you ever needed to at least draw a gun on another person? Aimed it at them? Or do you read Leroy’s articles and watch competition.

          • Kivaari

            Seriously? Perhaps more cops will start using rifles as I did 45 years ago. Like NYPD did over 100 years ago. Like LAPD deciding they should issue rifles after the North Hollywood bank robbery gone very bad. LA wouldn’t even let patrolmen have 12 Ga slugs, as they reserved them for supervisors. Or like the FBI adopting MP5SF five years after I had. Just being a big agency doesn’t mean correct choices are made. Our FBI instructors at the academy were wanting us to use techniques from the 30s, and we had to show them how such wild ideas as a Weaver stance worked. Even when we didn’t know it was a Weaver stance until it was written up in Guns and Ammo.

      • Kivaari

        It is why my last agency went from shotguns firing lead, to using them for rubber baton. We replaced shotguns with MP5s and later M4s.

    • Kivaari

      Good points, but all are mitigated by a painful NFA application and $200, for a short barrel. Changing the butt stock to being shorter improves handling. My 2 Remington M870s had 14″ barrels and shortened butts. Learning to reload while moving helps. Using low recoil buckshot gives easier handling, faster recovery and sustained fire. That said, I don’t use them anymore and prefer rifles (AR15) and sub-machineguns, like the MP5.

    • Kivaari

      Shotguns are often used where the desire to limit range and penetration is primary. Like around nuke subs where penetrating rifle bullets pose an issue.

  • Canadian Vet

    I know this will get me crucified, but here it goes.

    I don’t like Glocks.

    Don’t get me wrong, I can see the merit in their action and internals but I still don’t like them. The early generations’ ergonomics don’t agree with me and make me feel like I’m holding on to a chair leg. The later ones, their finger grooves just do not fit me well at all and my grip just feels all sorts of wrong.

    Also, I don’t like the disassembly process, and the trigger just doesn’t feel right to me. On top of that, the weight and balance feel really weird to me and on top of the grip ergonomics and the trigger, shooting a Glock just isn’t pleasant for me.

    Again, I’m well-aware that my opinion is liable to get me crucified by the “Glock or bust” crowd but I’ve learned over the years that firearms preferences are an intensely personal matter and there is no one size fits all option where they are concerned.

    • Kivaari

      For serious gun users keep your main packing piece the same, and learn it. I hated Glocks, then it became an issue pistol. Thankfully Gen 2 M17s were better. After literally firing tens of thousands of rounds, the gun becomes part of you. I pick up any other frame style, except for S&W K-frame .357s, and be it a SIG, Beretta, M1911 or BHP, everything about handling is wrong. I can own whatever I want, and at times I did, but now I use Glocks and S&W K-frame revolvers. Getting old , means there is no reason to collect a huge pile of anything.

      • Kellen

        I prefer Springfield over Glock. There is nothing wrong with Glock (have owned them before and will own them again), but Springfields have always felt more comfortable to me. I’ve owned a couple XDM’s, and XDS, and my EDC is a Mod.2. Never owned a classic XD though so I can’t speak on those. Most manufactures make great firearms. It mostly comes down to personal preference and comfort.

        • Kivaari

          I like the XDs, except I can’t get past the compressed firing pin spring. I like how Glock firing pins are not compressed until the moment before firing. Other than that, I like the style, grip safety and normally great trigger pulls.

    • n0truscotsman

      I transitioned to the M&P over a year ago. 😉 You’ll be fine.

    • Tommy

      I’ll have to agree with you on the Glocks, they just don’t fit me, kinda like holding a brick! Same with the XD’s! Don’t get me wrong, their both fine guns, just don’t work for me.

    • Hyok Kim

      Glock is a great bang for the buck gun for arming the masses on the cheap. Neither the best combat gun for the military, nor sand bag rest gun, nor civilian SD gun for individuals.

      • Kivaari

        Sure a great many cops that like Glocks. What about the various European armies that use them in quantity? Since copying a product is the bst compliment, there are a few Glock-like clones out in the world. We can eliminate Taurus, since they build junk. But others like S&W, H&K, SIG have mimicked the Glock, I guess most customers want a similar pistol. I think few have matched Glock in performance, although the S&W M&P models are nice.

        • Hyok Kim

          “Sure a great many cops that like Glocks.” – Kivaari

          “You really do not know anything about Glocks. If they were so bad, so easily fatigued, why do 70% of American police use Glocks?” – Kivaari to Hyok Kim from the post he deleted from another thread

          “You should understand that armies and navies and police around the world buy pistols and rifles in mindless fashion.” – Kivaari to Hyok Kim from the post he deleted from another thread

          • Kivaari

            I am getting close to deleting all of these, as you seem to enjoy simply making quotes, and offer nothing in return. What is the point of what you are doing? Just dragging things out until I simply ignore you or what?

          • Kivaari

            Your point?

          • Hyok Kim
          • Kivaari

            So you’ve finally started self-diagnostics for your issues. Good for you. As you found out, recognizing you have issues is the first step. Now you’re into step two, good for you.

    • Todd

      So they aren’t for you but you can see the merit in their action and internals .

      This is how normal people correctly pick the firearm( handgun) for THEM .

      It’s so annoying why die hard fanboys of ANY brand/type of firearm berate you over something you don’t care for , especially when you just don’t like the feel or you don’t shoot it well.

      Glocks , M&Ps , Xds , 1911’s , VP9 , Sigs , Walther are all very good and everyone should find something that fits THEM.

      • Kivaari

        I inspected a VP9 this afternoon. I loved how well it fit my hand.

    • hANNABONE

      If all of the Glock owners would simply shoot a quick five rounds from a CZ their collective eyes would be opened and their gun cabinets/safes would be gleaming with these Czech wonders.

      • Kivaari

        The CZ75, even the first one I handled over 30 years ago, a real CZ not a Tanfoglio clone, had poor finish,(a good GI painted finish) but a horrible trigger. First all had too long of a first round reach. Secondly, the single action push moved the hammer back slightly as it crunched its way to dropping the hammer. Same for the French M49. They were hyped before we could get our hands on them, then when we did we were let down. Same for the horrid HK P9S in 9mm and .45. Excessive trigger reach, horrible over travel and a nasty habit of dropping spent cases in ones head and face.
        Gen 1 Glock 17s did not fit many people. Gen 2s had recall issues (17 and 19s). I had sworn off them until I was issued a M17. That pistol must have had over 30,000 rounds through it before I was issued a new M34. If KDs did not have the pre-loaded firing pin, I could like it, knowing the trigger pull would be less crisp.

    • Dan

      How dare you make a logical assessment of why you don’t like GLOCKS. BURN THE HERETIC!!!!!
      just kidding.

    • Shmoe

      Hey, beyond the fact that they’re damn reliable and durable, I can’t stand them either. They’re bloody bricks in the hand, and in the holster. I started out with them, but after experiencing the DA/SA options, I was ruined. The only exception (regarding DAO or striker-fired) I’ll make is for a true subcompact for concealed carry, and then in it wouldn’t be a Glock (’cause they don’t make a true subcompact).

      • Kivaari

        You want a brick on your hip? That isn’t a Glock, since the empty pistol only weighs ~23 ounces.

        • Shmoe

          I made no reference to weight, I was referring to size. Your initial question seems to be either gibberish, or a misconstrual of my comment.

          • Kivaari

            A Glock17 is not a big pistol. I’ve carried them in a uniform pants pocket. In a better grade uniform, wool, and not cheap nylon, the gun actually hides pretty good. Yet, put a Glock 26/27 in a pocket and the little gun “prints”. Compared to several traditional handguns, like a 1911, the loaded wright and size are a nuisance.
            The average citizen can’t appreciate what gun and ammo weight can mean when it is added to a 2.25″ belt, with 2 spare magazines, radio, OC, ASP baton, 2 sets of handcuffs, rubber gloves, sometimes even 6 rounds of 00-buck. Add a piece of body armor and it can hit 25 or more added pounds. Add an airweight Centennial, as I did and theres more stuff than comfort dictates. Use leather instead of nylon duty gear and a couple more pounds get added.
            A narrow belt, dress pants, a 1911 and 2 spare mags can be a real nuisance on a citizen or officer.
            The point being a Glock 17 is not a brick in shape nor weight.

      • Kivaari

        The Glock 42 and 43 are too big? Or do you like NAA mini-revolvers?

        • Shmoe

          Nope. but I do like a my PM9 for IWB.

          • Kivaari

            Is the PM9 you like, the Pistolet Makarov 9x18mm?

          • Shmoe

            LOL, no, I’m not a collector. Though I suppose it would be considered a viable option for carry by many people. I suppose you’re going to badmouth Kahr Arms now?

          • Kivaari

            Oh, that PM9. Sorry I dislike Kahr. Most I see getting used are jamomatics. Same for big Kimber .45s. A few of the people I know with Kahr pistols, get rid of them and buy Glock 19s. Early this year one of them used his Glock 19 to shoot and capture an escapee from the local county jail. While competing about 2 years ago he tried his Kahr 9mm and came in last – thanks to so many malfunctions. His replacement G19 came in handy. His Kahr could have gotten off the one shot he needed. It was a good shoot. You can find the story by Googling the jail escape in Shoshone County (ID) and the shooting. Brian has shot a few others over the years.

          • Shmoe

            Beyond a problem with either the spring or the follower in one the magazines, I’ve had zero issues. Not the most satisfying pistol to shoot, but it’s not supposed to be. The pistol you’re apt to carry is 100% better than the one you leave at home.

            Interesting you mention the Makarov, as I’ve had a recent fascination with it’s predecessor: the Tokarev. Or, more precisely, it’s 7.62 ammunition. Basically, an ancestor of the PDW concept, IMHO. Would be fun to try a 1911, or even a carbine, chambered in it. But that’s a project for when I have money to throw around.

          • Kivaari

            Recently, this year, an article appeared in a popular magazine (I think Shotgun News) about building one on an AR. It used surplus magazines, type has faded from memory. I liked it.
            I heard ATF has stopped the import of much of the 7.62x25mm. It pokes holes in vests. I doubt it has been used in a crime in years.

  • BearSlayer338

    My four would be :
    1: AR-15, the most overhyped trendy and boring rifle there is.

    2: Mosin Nagant ,worst bolt action rifle in a serious caliber,harsher recoil than similar military bolt actions and poor accuracy for the barrel length.(I did not use surplus ammo) I have owned 3 of them and was unimpressed.

    3: Detonics Pocket 9,great looking gun but it has a worse double action trigger pull than probably any other handgun I found it worse than the H&K VP70z and the Nagant 1895 triggers.

    4: Glocks(all of them),the most overhyped fugly handguns,I kept hearing how they are so reliable but they are not any more or less reliable than my 1911’s or sigs.The are also wider than other handguns and the girls are terrible.

    • Al

      The Detonics pocket 9 is one of the all-time worst. Kicks like a mule because it’s blowback operated, has 6 round mag capacity – and the trigger is horrible.

      • Kivaari

        Detonics had to go to aluminum grips panels, since no plastic could take the recoil. That’s the only gun you list where I would agree.

      • Kivaari

        But look how other companies have developed small 9mm pistols thanks to the influence of Detonics and Bill Clinton. Detonics tried some novel designs, all to be copied by others. Like the Glocks, for being so over-hyped there sure are a lot of copies.

    • Hyok Kim

      “……..and poor accuracy for the barrel length.”

      It’s not necessarily the barrel length that determines the mechanical accuracy. It’s barrel rigidity

      “3: Detonics Pocket 9,great looking gun but it has a worse double action trigger pull than probably any other handgun I found it worse than the H&K VP70z and the Nagant 1895 triggers.”

      Now, that is BAD! Thanks for the heads up.

      • BearSlayer338

        Yeah it is really too bad the Detonics Pocket 9 has such a bad trigger because I loved everything else about the gun.

        • Kivaari

          Due to its radically small size the trigger dynamics created issues. I was lucky enough to be around the prototype.

          • BearSlayer338

            I wouldn’t call it radically small I could get a full 3 finger grip on it, my NAA Guardian in .32 NAA was much smaller,I could only get a a finger and 3/4 of another finger to grip the NAA.

    • Dan Atwater

      Regarding the AR-15, I was starting to get a RCOB until I realized I actually agree with you. I’ve put more rounds through AR pattern rifles than anything else but I’ve never actually enjoyed shooting them. It’s a great gun and if I had to go into harms way I’d pick an AR over any other 5.56 rifle out there (might make an exception for the AUG, depending on circumstances) but for recreational purposes I’d rather take something else.

      • BearSlayer338

        I would choose a few other 5.56 rifles before I chose an AR-15 for SHTF,first I would grab would be a my HK 33 clone(40 round standard mags) or my Ruger Mini 14,I would pick a mp5/10 over either though cause I have a ton of 10mm ammo.

        • Kivaari

          40 round Magpul magazines cost a lot less than HK magazines.

          • BearSlayer338

            Yeah but magazine cost alone isn’t a big enough issue to get me to own or not own a particular gun,I own a Lar Grizzly pistol in .44 magnum and magazines are $150 or more,but it doesn’t matter cause the gun came with 2 and I don’t need more mags than 2 for a handgun, my hk33 clone came with 4 40 round mags I do not see a need to buy anymore.

          • Kivaari

            Magazines, like the HK aluminum variants are fragile. I like having no less than 5 for pistols and 10 for rifles. Having a truck load brings comfort.

          • BearSlayer338

            I’ve never had a mag break yet and I let them drop to the ground when I reload. (With my rifles and handguns)

    • Kellen

      Amen, perfection doesn’t include “limp wristing”. Never had a problem with it, but it still seems like a design flaw to me.

  • mosinman

    the look of anger/disgust on Alex’s face was priceless

  • Ian, as I mentioned previously, people often won’t put a hand stop on a KSG. This leads to an unsafe situation. The gun has a combination of features that together are more dangerous than each would be alone. There are safer and less safe ways to operate a KSG, but the safest and surest way is to simply not shoot one.

    It is, I think, disingenuous to imply that my suggestion is a poor one because Kel-Tec would just screw it up anyway. They might, but I am very clearly not suggesting they poorly implement a built-in hand stop.

    Ideally, the KSG would be semi-auto (though that would probably invite the wrath of the ATF), or at least have a solid, single-piece molded in handstop that the user could grind off and replace if they so desired, but that would protect the average buyer.

  • Kivaari

    It had to be an automatic transcription, since no names are applied to each comment. A real writer would not do that.

  • Steve Martinovich

    I fired a Tavor for the first time last week and I have to say that I was underwhelmed. So many of my fellow Canadians are rapturous about this rifle for reasons I can’t figure out. The entire thing is an engine of meh.

  • Y-man

    Dear Ian, I shot the KSG ONCE in Atlanta. (IN MY OPINION, the KSG deserves to be on this list in 4 places, but that’s just me and my gun/ firearm rookie opinion…) I don’t think you can compare the hand positions between a KSG and an AR at all… On the AR, your hand is static… just keeping the sights down on target…
    On the KSG however, remember you are flinging said hand back and forth violently, forward and backwards forcefully and all over the place for noobs like me…
    Oh well, what does my opinion matter? It stops within its sphere of influence at the tip of my nose!

  • Mirage

    I have an original HK, Add a heavy buffer, and get a trigger job, and it will recoil about the same as AR15, the trigger job will set that 9-10lb. pull to 4.5… A simple plastic port buffer solves the hot flying brass issue. Yes, most .308 battle rifles are heavy. The only real drawback is the bolt hold open on empty. More reliable than an AK, hard hitting, accurate, but designed for MEN to use. Man up…
    As to the XD, I feel the same way about Glocks… Nothing like overpaying for a poor ergonomic pistol, one that is always overpriced, one that you have to replace the sights on immediately, always a crappy trigger, and funky grip. I’ll take an XD over a Glock any day.
    I have to agree with the Tavor. Very unbalanced.

    • Hyok Kim

      Tavor, the glock of bullpups, without the price advantage glock had in the beginning.

      • Kivaari

        Glocks remain well priced. Most basic models can be had for ~$500. Used police trade-ins can be found for a little over $300 in many markets.

  • Hugo Stiglitz

    Pretty vague comments about the XD from so called experts. I fired a bunch of pistols before I bought my first XD and none of the Glocks, Sigs, or HK’s fit my hand any better or were more reliable. The XD’s have the extra grip safety, are very accurate and Springfield’s customer service is great.

    • Rick5555

      These people are NOT Experts…far from it. None of the You Tuber Channels are experts either. They’re simply people illustrating their opinion and that’s it. There’a a reason the big firearm manufactures refuse to work with these people. Or provide them with a T&E gun, or insight to new stuff coming out. Because, many of these people provide their audience with wrong information, haven’t a clue what they’re talking about, and a host of other things. Ruger told Nutnfancy, they only provide T&E guns to bona fide firearm reviewers. And proceeded to turn his request for a T&E gun down. Nutn, has made his fair share of errors when reviewing things. Like saying there’s really no big difference between a commercial and milspec buffer tube. When in fact there’s a huge difference. One is forged, the other is extruded. One uses 6061 aluminum the other 7075. 7075 is twice as strong as 6061. And forging is significantly stronger than extrusion. Milspec is the forged and 7075 aluminum. The people with these channels, call themselves reviewers can do a company a lot of harm. The don’t do their due diligence and research. Even, Nathaniel got it wrong with the Tavor. With his comment about the shell. Yes the Shell was made first. However, IWI already knew what gas/piston operating system they were going with. Just today Iraqvetern8888 did a Tavor video. And these idiot kids on their site are repeating what Nathaniel said. And not too favorable comments either. Hence, some damage done…probably. Nathaniel should’ve been more careful or phrase his comment differently. Or clarified things after his comment. This is way they are not experts. Unfortunately, low inform people will take their word. When people like Nathaniel don’t have true inside info or contacts. Sorry having Jacob at Century Arms is not having a contact. I am talking about the big players in the firearms community/manufacturing.

      • FarmerB

        And how’s that different to many idiot ‘reviewers’ of big gun mags or even ‘journalists’ from the MSM?

        • Tassiebush

          The only difference I can see is a positive one that unlike magazines they don’t have to give good reviews to keep being given access to products. Seriously can’t remember the last time I read a bad review in a magazine.

          • FarmerB

            Exactly!!

      • Kivaari

        Most of the time, I find the TFB folks to be pretty good. Sometimes it is hard to get what you know in your brain expressed by written words.

  • Zebra Dun

    Yet Jerry is shown shooting a K&K 91 enthusiastically and in style.
    Really just because someone doesn’t like your pet firearm is not grounds for a full on forum assault.
    It’s the old Ford vs Chevy event.
    Blondes vs Brunette, Betty vs Wilma etc.
    Nothing personal, just an opinion.
    I don’t own any of these firearms, how ever I do drive a Ford, Love Brunettes, and always picked Betty Rubble up until Rosie O’ Donnell played her, Ima Wilma fan now.
    Good video and I liked the transcription it helps when you have a hearing impairment.
    The grammar and spelling didn’t phase me a bit.

  • parabellum

    XD? I was roped into becoming a Glock owner, just to do a couple GSSF matches. After all that mushy trigger time, it’s always nice to get back to an XD.

  • doug

    you don’t like the length of POLE? you mean PULL?

  • Donald Darr

    DeVore? Without pics of what they were talking about, I had to look this one up only to find he meant “Tavor”. Oh well, to each their own.

  • maodeedee

    Agree with the assessment of the HK. I have a CETME because at was all I could afford at the time but I’d rather have an FAL or a Springfield M1A Tanker-length Scout.

    As far as the XD’s, I like the little 45 and 9mm XDs but the larger ones all have too high of a barrel axis. I do like the grip safety however. I have a Glock 23 with 9mm and 357 Sig barrels and then I have a Glock 20 in 10mm, so I have no need for anything else beyond my WWII GI 1911 and my Israeli police-turn-in Browning Hi-power except maybe a Hi-power in 40 caliber.

  • Core

    I have a XD Tactical, and enjoy it very much. Can shoot bulls with cheap hardball all day long. Never modified it and the trigger really comes into its own after a few thousand rounds. The barrel is extremely accurate and its not marketed as a match grade model. A friend was a HS2000 owner and said that the quality was superior to the XD but I really can’t imagine it being better than current XDs. The trigger is not ideal, but it is effective. With that said, I went to a local shop to try some Glocks out and the newer Glocks are blockier than my XD Tactical. 45. I find it hard to believe you feel glocks are less blocky. The XDs are more contoured than Glocks in the grip and slide. It sounds like you haven’t shot XDs enough to realize they are thinner and less blocky than a Glock. What say you?

  • Phil

    Well guys you couldn’t have picked 4 better “lousy” guns. Congrats I heartily agree!

    One picayune technical point; The HK91 isn’t locked. Its a blowback gun and it isn’t locked. Biggest advertising success is convincing a zillion people its a roller “lock”… it isn’t. Its retarded. Nuff said there! (If you want a roller “lock” you need to get an MG42.)

    Great article and thanks for letting the Emperor know he’s naked!

  • Devil_Doc

    Not a fal, you’re right. I can never remember “fnc” for some reason.

  • Shmoe

    Alex and Patrick are great, but I’m really enjoying the guests. Particularly, Ian and Nathaniel; more serious gun nerds!

  • Kivaari

    Your point?

  • Kivaari

    No offense taken. The G17 didn’t print in high quality uniform pants. I don’t recommend that kind of carry. It was just fun to see how a full-sized pistol could go unnoticed. When a G26 was dropped in the pocket, it printed. Summer weight uniform pants made SOME pocket carry obvious. Almost all of us used a Centennial for back up. I have carried one for over 20 years. I saw a CZ75 30 years ago. Sid had to pay circa $1250 import duty, on top of the price. At the time Cz was on the enemies list. Once the Iron Curtain came down, things really changed. The M75 has always had a big trigger reach, so they just became one more pistol that I had no interest in having. There were many double stacked really long reach triggers on good pistol I did not like. They are great for those with long fingers. It’s easy for me to ignore guns. Like long stocks on shotguns and rifles. A rifle like the Ruger Scout is great, as the LOP can be changed. Like pistols with a long reach, I can ignore the long guns.