US Army Wants Out. FBI Wants In On 9mm Pistols

9_mm

For the fourth time in recent years the US Army is considering dropping the M9 Beretta and the 9mm NATO round it chambers in favor of a pistol that shoots a larger caliber, harder hitting round. The Federal Bureau of Investigation on the other hand have just published a pre-solicitation notice for 9mm pistols. The Bureau are looking for a compact, a full size and a training/simulation semi-automatic pistol chambered in 9mm Luger/Parabellum. A full solicitation noticed is expected to during Q1 2015.

The notice (SYNOPSIS-OSCU-DSU1501) is below …

This is a PRE-SOLICITATION NOTICE of a proposed requirement for various commercial “OFF THE SHELF” semi-automatic pistols chambered to fire a 9mm Luger cartridge as defined by SAAMI. This notice is issued solely for informational and planning purposes only.

The following types of pistols, chambered to fire a 9mm Luger cartridge, may be requested for testing and evaluation purposes under a future solicitation:

Class One Pistol: barrel length between 3.75″ and 4.25″; with a minimum magazine capacity of 13 rounds.

Class Two Pistol: barrel length between 4.5″ and 5.5″; with a minimum magazine capacity of 15 rounds.

Class One Training Pistol (Red Handle): deactivated with full articulation, red receiver and slide, night sights.

Class One “Man Marking” (a.k.a., “Simunitions”) pistol: blue slide or slide with blue inserts.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation anticipates the release of a solicitation during FY2015/Q1; distributed solely through the General Services Administration (GSA) Federal Business Opportunities (FBO) Website (www.fedbizopps.gov). This notice does not constitute a Request for Proposal (RFP) and should not be construed to as a commitment of any kind by the Government to issue a formal solicitation or ultimately award a contract. Responses to this notice are not offers and cannot be accepted by the Government to form a binding contract. Any costs incurred by interested parties will NOT be reimbursed. It is the responsibility of any interested party to monitor this site for additional information pertaining to this notice.

What is especially interesting is that the FBI are only interested in pistols that fire SAAMI specification 9mm cartridges. This infers they are not interested in adopting +P+ overpressure ammunition which exceeds SAAMI maximum chamber pressures.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation currently issues chambered in .40 S&W, which famously collaborated on the development of, to their Special Agents and .45 ACP pistols to the FBI HRT (Hostage Rescue Team) and regional SWAT teams.

Thanks to J for the tip.



Steve Johnson

Founder and Dictator-In-Chief of TFB. A passionate gun owner, a shooting enthusiast and totally tacti-uncool. Favorite first date location: any gun range. Steve can be contacted here.


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  • Bob

    Seems like they wrote the requirements for glock given the need for red training/blue simunition pistols

    • Kovacs Jeno

      almost all big name service pistol manufacturer offer training and simunition versions of their pistols.

      • Mystick

        …Or at least slides or mods that will permit them to function solely with Simunition.

    • LCON

      Give the past history of the FBI issue Chances are they will adopt one official but allow a wide selection in. given today’s markets I am betting Glock’s SW MP’s, HK’s, Sigs, Walther’s will all get the ok to varying degrees

  • Schadavi

    The german Bundeswehr once came to the following conclusion while reviewing a replacement for the P8 pistols:
    It does hardly matter what caliber you shoot from a handgun, they are all not great when compared to rifles. So purchasing anything new that still uses bullets is a waste of time and money.

    I somehow suspect it will cost the US taxpayer some dollars to come to the same conclusion.

    • bbmg

      Pistols are great if you can hit the CNS reliably. Use an adequate caliber and make sure you have a reliable gun with low recoil and large magazine capacity. The FN Five-seveN comes to mind…

      • Kovacs Jeno

        “adequate caliber” ” FN Five-seveN”

        whaaat?

        • bbmg

          It will reliably penetrate at least 12 inches of living tissue, therefore it is adequate. The fact is that someone shot in the CNS with a Five-seveN is going down and not getting up.

          • Kovacs Jeno

            “The fact is that someone shot in the CNS with a Five-seveN is going down and not getting up.”

            The same with .22 LR, and the ammo is cheaper. So?

            I think it is not mere coincidence that no serious LE agency ever adopted the 5-7 as primary sidearm.

            Not even the SG-1:-)))

          • bbmg

            I am loathe to cite wikipedia as a source but the list of users of this inadequate pistol is quite impressive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Five-seven#Users

          • Kovacs Jeno

            let me repeat: “no serious LE agency ever adopted the 5-7 as primary sidearm.”

            Which means: some SWAT team bought 1-2 pieces do not count as “serious agency adopted as primary sidearm”.

          • bbmg

            I haven’t seen any headlines along the lines of “Gunfight lost because of lack of Five-seveN firepower”, but I have heard of an incident where a mentally unstable shot 13 people with such a pistol and killed all of them, including three that attempted to charge him. The same individual was shot 5 times with a larger caliber, presumably a 9mm, and survived his wounds.

            I reiterate my original point, shot placement is *everything*. You need a minimum amount of penetration, but once this is achieved you want the lowest recoil, flattest trajectory and highest magazine capacity possible. Increasing projectile size at the expense of the above criteria is a waste.

          • Mystick

            I don’t see the trajectory coming into play at the ranges that short arms are used in. Pretty much everything is effectively flat under 20 yards. And if you are engaging at ranges longer than that with a pistol, it’s being irresponsible. Good shot placement just isn’t going to happen in a stressed, fluid, dynamic situation at that range unless you’re RoboCop. People aren’t static targets.

          • bbmg

            If you’re using a pistol at ranges where you should be using a rifle, then you most likely don’t have access to a rifle. Having a flat-shooting pistol will certainly help in that case.

          • FourString

            “And if you are engaging at ranges longer than that with a pistol, it’s being irresponsible.” For conventional cartridges sure. But with a 5.7x28mm pistol, casually/often reaching out at 100 yards is not unheard of. It’s inherent in the low recoil and flat trajectory.

          • Mystick

            Hitting static targets at the range is much different than hitting targets in what effectively is combat.

          • The Brigadier

            Yes, but in the hands of a good shooter do you want to carry a weak sister into battle or a show stopper? You are thinking in terms of piss poor shooters. They probably shouldn’t be carrying much of anything that shoots and should be ammo carriers for those who can.

          • Mystick

            Not everyone is an “operator” trained to deal with the stress of an actual combat situation. I’ve seen award-winning competition shooters completely drop the ball when it’s real, including inuring non-combatants and emptying entire magazines and hitting nothing but air. The “show stoppers” don’t always end up being a good thing sometimes when you get a ticket to the wrong one.

          • The Brigadier

            A .357 is accurate out to 50 yards. A .44 magnum with a 10 inch barrel with Nosler tip and boat tail bullets is accurate to 150 yards. We are talking about backups to battle rifles, and blowing the head clean off an enemy at 150 yards tends to dissuade the entire herd.

          • FourString

            True. But do they have follow up shots as quick as with the 5.7? I’m a huge fan of .357 and .44 magnum btw.

          • n0truscotsman

            “you want the lowest recoil…

            Which is what you DONT get with the 5.7 minus its advantages in flatter trajectory and superior magazine capacity.

            In my opinion, you want magazine capacity, the lowest possible recoil, least expensive ammunition, with an equivalent kinetic energy of roughly 3-400 ft lbs.

            Have you ever fired one of those fucking tanks? They have heavy recoil and a large grip.

          • The 5.7 has 30% less recoil than standard pressure 9mm. It has very little recoil, and it’s extremely quick, sort of like a pulse. By the time you realize the shot has been fired the sights are back on target. It’s pretty incredible.

            Factory FN loads are deliberately loaded low; with aftermarket ammo the 5-7 does 2600fps out of a 4.8″ barrel with 400ft/lbs of energy.

            http://www.brassfetcher.com/5.7x28mm/57%20vs%209mm%20KET.bmp

          • n0truscotsman

            The 5.7 is a rather interesting cartridge and there is much controversy about its viability as a combat handgun. My experiences with the FN five seven is that it is extremely accurate, although has higher noticable recoil (no doubt due to its light weight polymer frame rather than its cartridge) and a wide grip, which doesn’t help small or intermediate handed shooters.
            But for its intended purpose, a small, high velocity cartridge that can offer superior penetration than conventional pistol cartridges, it excels at this. I’ve killed many coyotes and rockchucks with my five seven and PS90, which serve as technological amusements more than dedicated combat/self defense platforms (a role my AR and AKs fulfill). Although im fairly certain that they would be effective if the feces hits the fanblade with proper shot placement like anything else. I doubt bad guys would have a “good day” with 5.7 in their hips and heads.
            The main advantage i can see to 5.7 is that it prevents overpenetration: a trait shared by other small, lightweight, high velocity cartridges such as the venerable 5.56/223 rem. This makes it a desirable law enforcement weapon in some aspects, although 5.56 accomplishes this while having significantly more energy and being cheaper.

          • Interesting, you find it to have more recoil? I’ve owned mine for several years and read numerous articles on it, and whether for or against, everyone seemed to agree that it has very little recoil. And I’m a guy who dislikes recoil.

            Here’s a video of the 5-7 firing, with what looks to be a 9mm Beretta Storm Compact firing behind it, which in of itself is known for being a soft shooter. Not a perfect comparison, it was just the best I could find on youtube. But the recoil is a bit less than the 9mm, at least subjectively within the confines of this video:

            Furthermore, using “powerfactor” as a rough guide to the potential momentum of the cartridge, the difference between the most powerful 5-7 loading vs 124 grain 9mm+p gold dot (the most common police/SD load) is pretty stark.
            5.7 S4M Load 28grain at 2600fps = PF 72, with 420 ft/lbs of energy.

            9mm 124 Grain at 1200fps = PF 148, 396 ft/lbs.

            By that crude calculation (which doesn’t take into account differences in pistol weight) the 5.7 has 1/2 the recoil of the 9mm +P with slightly more energy.

            Ultimately though, recoil is primarily a perception of the shooter. But I was very surprised to hear that anyone found the 5.7 to be more than the 9mm.

          • n0truscotsman

            The civilian loadout of ammunition types produces mild recoil, obviously; for handloaders or shooters of the ammunition designed to actually penetrate body armor (the intent behind the design to begin with), the recoil is sharper.
            I dont think thats a terrible comparison.

          • The Brigadier

            I agree. Kill the pistol and keep the SMG.

          • The Brigadier

            The 5.7 has already been made into a pussy round because the Belgians wanted the same round that could be shot in the P90 bullpup and their pistols. The 5.7×25 was too strong for the weak Belgians so they shortened the round and made it substantially weaker. Now they have a weapon that can be shot in both. It’s an inferior round in their pistols and it makes the range of the P90 so short as to make it unusable for most assault situations. I am going to make an American version of the old P90 with the old ammo, now that their utility patent has expired. It was the best sub-machine gun I have ever fired and I’ve shot most. It needs to be resurrected.

          • n0truscotsman

            No, i think its because NATO specification 5.7 cannot be legally sold in the United States because it is armor piercing pistol ammunition. But, objectively, its not a “pussy round”. Misguided as it is, being a problem in search of a solution…

            I just never saw the point in PDW cartridges, which aren’t anything new either (see 22 spitfire).

          • The Brigadier

            F=MA. That is Newton’s great physics equation – Force equals Mass times Acceleration. For mass we can use bullet weight. For acceleration we can use muzzle velocity. Force is what you want to apply not particularly bullet diameter. Two ways you can apply force, and the two great camps of caliber lovers are the light and fast camp and the heavy and slow camp. Think .357 Magnum vs .45 ACP. I prefer light and fast and carry a .357 on my web belt, but I also carry a Taurus LS .45 ACP in my chest holster.

          • Sulaco

            Didn’t a South American SWAT team use the P90 to storm a building where terrs were holding hostages in the 90’s? I remember the headlines about that.

          • I find it amusing how one of those sources also claims the GIGN uses .38 caliber Derringers. I sincerely question the validity of that.

          • iksnilol

            A modernized pistol in 7.62×25 is what I would use (not that 9mm is bad) – a CZ would be perfect.

          • Man pippy

            The Five Sevens stopping power would seem to be on par with 9mm. The real advantage of the calibre is higher magazine capacities and lower recoil.

          • Sulaco

            With hollow points maybe, FMJ will over penetrate by yards…

          • FourString

            Yup. A CZ SP-01 or P-09 chambered in this would be nice. Wonder why they haven’t done this yet :/

          • Cymond

            It should be remembered that 7.62×25 is longer than 9×19, so the Tokarev won’t fit in most 9mm firearms. It would mean making a completely new version of the gun – new frame, new slide, new barrels.

          • FourString

            True. It’d approach a Five-seveN grip in that regard.

          • Michael

            Agree 7.62×25 in a high capacity polymer pistol with a rail, and ability to mount a mini red dot,
            I like the FiveseveN, I think it has a very high rate of being effective, even with civilian ammo, and has the ability to penetrate body armor.

          • zardinuk

            Wikipedia cites it’s sources, and it does an excellent job of it at that. Someday we’ll stamp out this group-think anti-wikipedia ignorance.

          • LCON

            GiGN, Madrid Police, Liège metro police. it’s in use by dozens of Police and military agencies it’s just so specialized

          • I live in France currently, and I have had the chance to speak with Gendarmes in the past, and the GIGN absolutely, positively does not use the Five-seveN. They use PAMAS G1s (License built Beretta 92s and former standard issue pistol), SIG Pro SP2022s (standard Gendarmerie issue pistol), occasionally MAC Mle 1950 pulled out of storage (outdated but still reserve handgun in the French Army – reminder that the GIGN belongs to the Gendarmerie, which is considered part of the military – thus they’re both soldiers AND police officers), as well as Manurhin MR 73s, a .357 Magnum revolver supplied with an optional 9mm cylinder, in various barrel lengths, including an unique, 10 inch barreled one with optic and bipod ; which I have only ever seen in the hands of said GIGN members.

            If the Five-seveN is used somewhere in France, it’s not there. For anything that requires armor piercing, we’ll generally want rifles. Not a fancy over-glorified .22 Magnum.

          • I also want to add that there is a very, very fine line between a weapon that is standard issue and a weapon individual units or even officers are allowed to purchase to suit their needs – even temporarily. Because one unit has once used a particular firearm doesn’t mean the entire organization they belong to, issues that firearm as standard issue.

          • sianmink

            IIRC Stargate Command was pretty solid with the Μ9, even if they had to upgrade toAP ammo for marginal effectiveness against armored Jaffa.

          • LCON

            well not always First year they were using Taurus PT92’s

            http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Stargate_SG-1_-_Season_1

          • The Brigadier

            They also used MP5s. Carter gave Apophis a shooting demonstration with an MP5 on single shot against a swinging target. The MP5 is an accurate small assault weapon on single, but not so much on full auto. The FN P90 is amazingly accurate on full automatic and is the only bullpup design I will have soon. I want an original in 5.7×25, not the anemic replacement round FN came up with – those effing effete Europeans.

          • Mystick

            Although they did use the “sister” gun, the P-90…. after a few years with the MP5… and you occasionally see an M4 or SAW.

            Not to mention the Zat’nik’tel and Ma’Tok…

          • The Secret Service uses the Five Seven and P90 along with the .357 Sig pistols. They’re pretty serious.

          • Panzercat

            They also get to hose their targets down with fully automatic fire.
            Difference = difference.

          • jdkchem

            Mostly with hookers and booze these days.

          • pismopal

            The Secret Service are a bunch of JOs whose reputation rests primarily in their own minds.

          • The Brigadier

            They have won the government shooting competitions pretty regularly now. You really don’t want to tangle with those folks. The FBI and Homeland Security range from good to awful like every other organization.

          • pismopal

            Marksmanship, especially on inert targets, is not the measure of any police or security organization. The SS is not likely to “go against” anyone other than the occasional wack job who is likely to be within 10 yards. SS is a personal security detail and recent news has shown them to be poor in that category as well. I am sticking to JO in my post.

          • Jenkem Jones

            That’s about all they do.

          • FourString

            .22LR is not as reliable though. Also does not tumble (SS197) or pierce armor (SS190) the way that 5.7x28mm does.

          • Jenkem Jones

            Hmm, just like 22 magnum.

      • Matt

        He also seemed to miss the fact that the secret service uses the Five seveN. And Sam Fisher Too!

      • The Brigadier

        God I so want an original FN P90. It was so accurate and fast then they went and weakened the five seven ammo.

    • FourString

      Depends. They’re useful in Green on Blue attacks in Afghanistan. Main ostensible reason why Britain switched their standard issue from Browning Hi-Power to Glock 17 Gen 4. But this is a matter of ergonomics, not calibre

      • Michael

        The reason they replaced the High Powers was because they were worn out, probably older than the soldiers. Glocks are also half the price of new high powers.
        I like the high power, but the Glock is lighter, carries more ammo, easier to maintain and accountants like the lower cost.

        • FourString

          Exactly, which is why I said “main *ostensible* reason” rather than just main reason. 🙂

          That was the political sell on it; however the Ministry of Defence actually wanted the G17 Gen4 for cost reasons primarily, then the other logistical benefits.

    • Blake

      Without adequate training it doesn’t matter if your sidearm is a 22LR or 44 Magnum; if you can’t score a critical hit on the target you’re screwed.

      Personally I think changing caliber for caliber’s sake is a waste of time & resources. Any forces that don’t normally use a rifle in their main course of duty would be much better served by a PDW/SMG/small portable carbine than a handgun as the training required to get a new soldier up to consistently effective defensive accuracy on something with a shoulder stock and decent sight radius &/or optical sight is far less than with a handgun.

      • Blake

        On this note, a platform that would make a lot of sense (gads, its da ‘gubmint, can’t have dat) would look something like this:

        – configuration similar to an RMR-30, but more compact. Shorter forend & bbl, and an effective flash hider. 9mm maxes out after about 8″ of bbl depending on the load.

        – stock forend is ergonomic & comfortable to hold, rail for vertical or angled grip and hand-stop

        – rail for optics as per RMR-30

        – flip-up ghost ring sights, but with simple notch sites visible when flipped down

        – takes Beretta M9 mags in pistol grip

        Want more range & power from 9mm NATO from an M9 pistol? Increase the barrel length!

  • Nick

    Does anyone ever get the feeling that all this ridiculous circle-jerking only comes about because a bureaucrat somewhere needs their existence justified on a regular basis,

    or is that stating the obvious somewhat?.

    • It does feel like that. Change for the sake of changing something, Maybe the entire federal gov’t will just adopt the same pistol for all departments, bureaus agencies… Ya right

      • raz-0

        It’s not change for the sake of change. Until they actually replace something on the army side of the equation, it’s bitching about handguns not being good at putting people down in one shot and griping that their gear isn’t exactly what everyone wants. Which basically means it’s a day ending in y.

        As for the FBI change, 9mm is cheaper, can fit more in the same space or the same in less space, and is one of the few calibers that keep being made during even the most nasty panics and shortages. When they left, there wasn’t nearly the ammo choice there is now in terms of terminal performance, so it is reasonable to reconsider their whole previous departure given that it may offer them a better range of ergonomic fit, equivalent performance, and minimize their supply chain issues.

    • n0truscotsman

      Im tired of it too, especially when live fire training gets affected because of budgetary concerns.

      Fucking idiots should do some deductive reasoning and try and figure out why new 9mms have been acquired by those that actually train hard with handguns (and anything else). Why hasn’t SOCOM or anything else jumped ship from 9mm? oh right…

      • LCON

        Socom actually uses both 9mm and .45ACP. they pick what they want for the mission.

        http://www.tactical-life.com/magazines/tactical-weapons/hk45c-us-navy-seal/?scrape=true

        • seans

          The standard issue firearm for NSW(Seals) is still the P226/MK25. On average a platoon of 20 seals will have 4 HK45s that are for suppressed use.

        • n0truscotsman

          Because 45 is excellent for being suppressed, which is why you have the HK45C, or what is known in the Navy as the Mk 24.

          Its for a very specified purpose used by a small number of people.

    • percynjpn

      Yes on the first part.

  • Tim U

    Will the FBI guns turn up as surplus like police trade ins, or will they be destroyed like the military does with their brass?

    • Frank

      The 1076s turned up didn’t they? Not sure about the sigs.

    • Anon. E Maus

      They destroy their brass? That’s terribly goddamn wasteful, if not selling it out for cheap to the US civilian market, just selling it as scrap to be recycled would be a lot goddamn better.

      • FourString

        do they recycle them? i.e. melt them down for future use? @_@ man i can’t even imagine outright destroying them

  • Bruce

    Why don’t we just let the FBI and Army swap pistols? Hell, they don’t even have to surplus sale their ammunition. I’m sure the FBI wouldn’t turn down all those training rounds, and the Army could use all those Hollowpoints for practice as well.

    • LCON

      FBI will want Rails, Army M9 has none.

  • taknix

    “Class Two Pistol: barrel length between 4.5″ and 5.5″; with a minimum magazine capacity of 15 rounds.”

    Why would anyone ever need more than 10 rounds?

    • Marc

      Better have and not need than need and not have.

      • LCON

        just ask every cop who says he fired two shots but finds a empty magazine in his sidearm. Under stress a shooter is going to pull the trigger and loose count. besides with modern 9mm 15 rounds per magazine is par for the course.

        • FourString

          19 rounds flush fit in the CZ P-09 sure is lovely

    • Lammo

      I thought 7 was supposed to be enough. 🙂

      • Cymond

        Ha! A real man only needs ONE, because a real man shoots a .45.
        If God wanted men to shoot small calibers, he would have told John Moses Browning when he designed the most perfect handgun in history!
        .
        Colion Noir can say it better than I can: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po4nZTO3ES4

        • Dick Hunt

          WTF is Colion Noir, a disease of the arse?

          • Patriot Gunner

            Dude I was literally ROFL. Comic gold my friend…comic…gold

          • Dick Hunt

            Thank you kindly sir.

          • Cymond

            What is he? He’s a very popular Youtube commentator, who has even been hired by the NRA due to his popularity. I propose that you, sir, are the arse-wart here.

          • Dick Hunt

            Ridiculous commentator. Hired only because he is black. Whites are too afraid to call him out for being boring and a pseudo expert when his base of knowledge is actually weak.

          • Cymond

            He’s a spokesman, not an expert. He was hired for his popularity, and his ability to reach a younger generation with his communication style. I’m not a huge Colion Noir fan, but I have enjoyed his style.

          • DonDrapersAcidTrip

            Uh oh white piece of shit doesn’t want a black guy joining his all white boys gun club!

        • Michael

          John Browning realized his mistake and immediately designed the Browning High Power, IN 9MM.

          • Bill

            Truly one of the most stupid, most uneducated comments I’ve read here or elsewhere.

          • FourString

            Calm down, it was a joke.

          • Cymond

            Yeah, yeah, we both know he only did that because he was working for them there wussy Belgians. I’ll say it again, real men shoot 45s, just as God intended. ‘MURICA!!
            .
            .
            All joking aside, I have only handled a Hi Power once, in my grandfather-in-law’s collection. It immediately struck me as an incredibly graceful pistol. I need to get ahold of another.

        • Lammo

          The gun in my avatar is the Glock 36. .45 ACP, because they don’t make a .46.

      • floppyscience

        Exactly. As the great Governor Cuomo said, you don’t need 10 shots to kill a deer. Seven is enough.

      • Sulaco

        Ten min. In NY you can get a separate permit to have the other three rounds loose in your pocket if you have a ten round mag….puke…

    • FourString

      H&K VP9L pls

    • n0truscotsman

      “omg, despite ending this gunfight with three rounds, i still have all this ammunition left”. “cant have any of that nonsense!” /rolls eyes/

  • big daddy

    My head hurts from all this. I have following this stuff since the Vietnam war. Over and over again the same thing. All that happens is that through better science we come up with more reasons why things do not work perfectly. It all boils down to 2 things, the ammo and the ability of the shooter. The fact is there is not enough training for US armed forces on basic infantry skills, I know I was disgusted with the lack of training I received while in the Army.
    Next is the failure of the US Government to have any balls and give the troops the proper ammo. They keep trying to make magic bullets. You want a magic bullet, some type expanding ones with a hard core to penetrate armor. The velocity is there, the expanding part is not. A simple 9mm Federal HST in 124 or 147 will do the job well, but will it penetrate body armor? They need a simple design that will penetrate the armor and expand, can they do that? They won’t because of some stupid treaty we didn’t even sign. Why do we abide by this, FEAR.
    The US Government is afraid that the enemy will use the use of those new bullets as a reason to abuse any captured combatants. Guess what, you get capured by these barbarians and you will get abused anyway, see Vietnam even Japan during WWII. Any war in the future will be fought by groups of terrorists not countries. Let them fear us not fear them and their retaliations. They do not fear us because of our politics not the ability of US forces which can defeat anybody if allowed to. We have proven to have the best military in the world only to be watered down by politicians with agendas. It’s not the bullets, it’s the bullshit.

    • LCON

      The Geneva convention BD. We are bound by treaty to avoid Hollow points and rounds designed to be more effectively lethal. LEO are not bound by it though.

      • Hague is the convention that went over the use of HP ammo in the military. Geneva talks about POWs. Not the first to make that mistake, and not the last!

        • claymore

          The Hague conventions also prohibit noise moderating devices but we ignore that prohibition regularly and don’t even attempt to hide suppressor use anymore

        • Dick Hunt

          USA is not bound by that convention, Herbinkjou WTF.

          • Sulaco

            We did not sign either one.

          • claymore

            But we do follow it for the simple reason we “theoretically” do want our troops subject to inhuman practices prohibited by the conventions. But the enemy now ignores them also.

    • Michael

      We don’t use hollow points, but torture prisoners.

      • Sulaco

        Git a life. Source please. Other that 3 instances of water boarding that our Sp
        Forces have to undergo as part of training. ANd outed a least three immediate plots to bomb innocents. Your concern is sadly misplaced or is it?.

  • J.T.

    Big reason for this is that the the FBI uses hollow-points and the Army doesn’t.

    I wonder if CZ will submit the P-07 and P-09?

  • SD3

    Can we just give the FBI all of the Army’s M9s? That should keep them fully armed through the millenium.

    • That wouldn’t address their need for a Class One pistol.

      My solution is honestly simpler. The FBI is used to Glocks, by now, aren’t they? The solution is simple. Glock 26 or 19 for Class 1, and 17 for Class 2.

      There, done. I really wonder what’s the need for red tape here when even the proposed switch to 9mm can be done incredibly quickly without even needing their officers to change platforms.

      • Bill

        Wait about a decade for the litigation from other manufacturers to play out, and that’s what they’ll have

      • Sulaco

        And or replacement caliber barrels for the 26 and 19 to shift to .40 at need. Same for the 17 up or down caliber is as simple as barrel and mag change.

      • n0truscotsman

        And that is what they’ll do. and should.

        Either that or the M&P9

    • Anon. E Maus

      Yeah, I’m sure the FBI is just giddy over getting the sloppy seconds of pistols that have been abused since Operation Desert Storm with scarcely any unit replacements.

  • wetcorps

    “the US Army is considering dropping the M9 Beretta and the 9mm NATO round”
    Yeah sure.

    • FourString

      Lol pretty on point.

  • Hacedeca

    The Russians have developed a 9mm bullet, which is armour piercing and slightly larger than an ordinary 9mm:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9721mm_Gyurza

    Shouldn’t the FBI be interested in developments like this and order a 40 S&W bullet with armour piercing characteristics instead of a 9mm pistol?

    • Lance

      However it flopped as well because 9mm Makarovs are still so plentiful most agents and solder there still use the Soviet pistol over some domestic Russian 9x19mm designs.

      • iksnilol

        not flopped, just not widespread. There is a difference.

      • n0truscotsman

        if anything 9×19 is becoming *more* popular in Russian service these days…

        just look at the new guns in use chambered in that caliber.

    • LCON

      The Report is that the FBi is worried as they deemed excessive wear due to the increased recoil.

      • FourString

        Don’t they use +P+ loads anyway?

      • claymore

        And agents with small hands that have problems gripping a man sized firearm.

    • n0truscotsman

      Not especially, no.

      Its +P+, which, in my opinion, are unneeded. Many tend to agree with the contention that overpressure cartridges do offer an additional 100 ft lbs of energy, although, there is no conclusive evidence this extra small amount of energy is going to enhance lethality and expansion. They do, however, increase muzzle flash, recoil, and wear and tear.

      That and 40 is already being pushed to its engineering capacity with its case limit, since it is a necked down 10mm. There are no overpressure 40 rounds for this very reason. 40 already has enough problems as it is with case limits without squeezing even more powder into it.

      And definitely not a improvement compared to a slung AR15.

  • Well, the Army is entertaining the idea of a new pistol caliber; it doesn’t exactly “want out”. 9mm is still by far the best horse to bet on for the next service pistol.

    • Sulaco

      Correct and it is still the “default” pistol caliber of planet Earth.

  • Lance

    Like Washington County OR Sheriffs officer they went for .40 good pistol but they wear out too fast WA County went to 9mm pistol to replace .40s.

    Overall like ICC was for rifles dont get over hyped about this MHS competition the Army again has remember we had jest less than 10 years ago Joint Combat Pistol which was a reorgansised 2nd attampt to find a M-9 replacement it flopped too. AT the same time like ICC the NAVY and USMC have no interest so far in this program so less incentive to get support to go completely threw.

    • Sulaco

      Our SWAT went from .40 to 9mm with the HST and Ranger rounds (contract purchase) based on two factors: 1. Wear and tear on the pistols in training and 2. Controllability in CQB engagements.

  • ArmasDeFuego

    Sometimes the FBI leads the way, and sometimes they follow. NM and TX DPS went from 357 Mag to 45 to 357 SIG to 9mm… change is inevitable. The military? Sgt York stopped 6 men w his 45. Lt. Van Vuuren stopped 11 men w his 9mm. If you can shoot, the 9 works; if you can’t, the 45 won’t either. Since 2006 the SOF-CP, FHS, JCP, AFH, AFFH, and MHS pistol programs have come and gone and come again. Eventually one will stick.

  • USMC03Vet

    The word must have gotten out about 9mm being cheaper to shoot. Can’t have that. Incoming gov’t intervention via mass purchasing of ammo to piss off 9mm shooters.

    • Sulaco

      Nope, just not enough chances for graft.

  • MichaelBolton

    A sidearm is a last ditch defensive weapon. It will always be hamstrung by the Geneva Convention rules requiring FMJ rounds. Any advantage of a larger caliber is almost totally negated when using FMJ, which then leaves the end user with a reduced magazine capacity, snappier recoil, and increased split times.

    I can tell you what some HRT guys are using, and that’s Gen 4 Glock 17s (and it’s important to note they’re using that WITHOUT FMJ ammo).

    • Sorry for my ignorance, but what does HRT mean?

      • Bill

        Hostage Rescue Team. They’re full-time, versus the SWAT teams from regional offices.

      • MichaelBolton

        FBI’s Hostage Rescue Team. Civilian equivalent of Delta.

    • Anon. E Maus

      Except the convention regarding hollowpoints is the HAGUE convention, which the US never ratified.

      • MichaelBolton

        So point me to where our troops are using JHPs in handguns and hollow points in rifles.

        • seans

          Well Mk318 was designed for expansion and penetration. And we did not sign the Hague conventions, which also ban things like Suppressors.

          • Sulaco

            Would the EFMJ rounds fall under this I wonder…

          • seans

            If you are referring to the M855A1 it was designed for tumbling which gets around that loophole.

          • Sulaco

            Nope, The expanding full metal jacket tech that I think Remington still sells in pistol calibers…

          • MichaelBolton

            Sure, but not a hollow point. We can argue semantics about the Hague Conventions, but no armed forces use hollow points, not to be confused with open tip rounds.

            We actually did ratify declarations I, II, and III of the Hague conventions, but not IV, which governs projectiles.

          • seans

            The wording doesn’t say hollow points, it says bullets that expand. MK318 expands, MK262 is the LR open tip round. The US also states it can use hollowpoints ammo whenever it is a military necessity.

      • claymore

        But we follow it’s prohibitions in any case. Would you like our enemies not to follow it?

    • Michael

      I thought they used Glock 22s. Maybe they have switched to 9mm also.

  • BjornTheBrave

    Buy American and just be done with it.

    Springfield 1911 Loaded MC Operator
    Federal 230gr HST
    Surefire X300 Ultra
    Wilson 500BC-HD mags
    Blade-Tech duty holster and TMMS/DD/OS Tek-Lok thigh rig

    • iksnilol

      Some finicky competition gun with a low mag cap? I would have understood if you said a RIA pistol (crude but works).

      • BjornTheBrave

        Springfield is awesome. Any handgun is a low capacity gun by definition though. As MichaelBolton stated earlier, it’s [mostly] a defensive, last resort weapon. In some tactical scenarios a handgun is more convenient in an offensive application than a rifle though. Think of very confined spaces, stealthy close range hits where chances of succes are 100% etc. A pistol may very well be employed in an offensive role. And a .45 will definitely do a proper good job. And as a guy who hates HK back, I will never touch any of their products, including the 12 round USP. I will ALWAYS go for a good [Springfield, Les Baer, Nighthawk, Ed Brown, Wilson, Dan Wesson] 1911 over anything HK. Yes, I am that headstrong and I’m well aware I’d sacrifice capacity by doing so, yet the Huns from HK can go p up a rope. LOL, their GMG isn’t even the best AGL on the market. That title goes to STENGG’s CIS40. There is no need to take HK seriously… Anyway, as to handguns: whatever floats your boat of course. In the end I think it all comes down to personal preference. Personally, I love the 1911. It’s one of those guns that fits my hand like a glove, and I like it’s natural point of aim. It’s perfect. The other one being the P226 but I moved away from SIG due to their QC going downhill since Cohen became CEO in ’04. If SIG ever wants to become SIG again, its shareholders need to get rid of Cohen. He basically destroyed Ruger -yes, he made them more profitable, but QC was one of the things that went straight out of the window- and now he’s doing the same thing to SIG. Which is sad because I like SIG alot. Yet I won’t be buying anything SIG as long as Cohen remains on board because I don’t like his business policies, which I believe to be fundamentally flawed. YMMV…

    • Anon. E Maus

      Why the hell would they go with a 1911 in this day and age if they would want a .45?
      They might as well go for an FNX-45 or a Smith & Wesson M&P .45 if it has to be American, but they’re not looking for a .45, so I think a much better choice would be an FNX-9, or M&P 9, if they need an American design.

      • BjornTheBrave

        @n0truscotsman:disqus +Michael+Anon

        Points taken. If the military would want to standardize on one handgun and switch to a more powerful caliber, that leaves it only once choice I reckon:

        Smith & Wesson 4.25” M&P40 Pro Series
        APEX Tactical RAM and DCAEK Trigger Upgrades
        Surefire X300 Ultra Light
        Blade-Tech Custom OWB/Duty Holster w/Tac-Light,Tek-Lok and thigh rig
        Federal .40 HST 180gr.

      • Parnell

        The specs for the FBI scream Glock.

    • n0truscotsman

      Have you seen what a Springfield operator costs per unit and the overall cost of maintenance? not going to happen. For the same reasons there will be no M45A1 in mass service.

      I own a Operator. The last fucking gun that should be in the hands of TOCroaches, MPs, 18 year old 11Bs, and Bradley drivers is a Springfield Operator.

    • Michael

      I thought Springfield 1911 frames were made in Brazil

  • MOG

    Damn the pistol, pass me the shotgun.

  • mkuisi8mo

    Sounds like work for the legendary CZ75B family lineup!

    Choose your frame: steel, aluminum alloy or Poly (the steel & alloy frame mags are interchangeable from 14 rd compacts, to 16 rd Full Size; to 18 rd SP-01 series to 26 rounders) …then choose your barrel size & decocker or safety variation.

    My personal fave is the CZ75D Compact (PCR)…alloy frame, steel slide, 14 rd on up Mags.

  • JLR84

    Proving once again that the military is decades behind the curve.

  • Michael

    How many people are shot with a pistol? Enemy that is, not accidents and suicides.

  • Xaun Loc

    The critical difference is simple — the FBI uses modern JHP rounds (and will consider other new technologies as they become proven) — the Army (and the rest of the military forces) are limited to FMJ rounds under most circumstances
    The military could use JHP in a domestic law enforcement role, but the US military is legally prohibited from having a domestic law enforcement role except in rare situations) The only part of the military that could reasonably use JHP rounds would be the military police using those rounds to shoot other US personnel.
    Although there are limited situations where JHP would be legal, the military chooses to stick with FMJ for ALL situations so as to reduce the logistics and legal nightmares of ensuring that every soldier has only the proper rounds available at any time.
    In every combat situation in the last half century a small number of US soldiers have been found using JHP and other unauthorized ammo – and the military is very committed to stopping such violations. Having a mix of legal combat (FMJ) and domestic-only (JHP) ammo in the supply system would be more burden than it is worth.

    • Parnell

      Actually, the military is not legally prohibited from using JHP ammo. The US is not a signatory of the Hague Convention.

      • Xaun Loc

        Actually, it is US law that requires the military to follow the Hague and Geneva Conventions (collectively referred to as the Law of War) including sections which we did not sign. The same situation exists with the Ottawa Treaty on landmines which the US did not sign.

        Also, not being a signatory is not a defense in a war crimes trial.

        • kazetsukai

          “Also, not being a signatory is not a defense in a war crimes trial.”

          I find it bizarre that an international entity, unaccountable to anyone claims the right to try a sovereign nation. America at large has nothing to gain and everything to lose by even being a part of the UN.

          International politics are rotten to the core. Mark my words, this new league of nations will be the cause of WWIII.

        • AlDeLarge

          The same Hague conventions prohibit dropping bombs from airplanes. The military doesn’t use hollow points for other reasons, mostly cost. Over-penetration is generally not a concern, and wounding is a higher priority than killing.

          • Xaun Loc

            Would you care to cite which specific convention you think included that prohibition (keep in mind that the two conventions were held in 1899 and 1907 – somehow I doubt the delegates were worrying about anyone bombing from aircraft at that time).

          • AlDeLarge

            I was mistaken. It wasn’t just airplanes and “prohibited” is an overstatement, but it’s severely limited:

            Laws of War :
            Laws and Customs of War on Land (Hague IV); October 18, 1907

            Annex to the Convention
            REGULATIONS RESPECTING THE LAWS AND CUSTOMS
            OF WAR ON LAND
            SECTION I
            ON BELLIGERENTS

            CHAPTER I
            Means of Injuring the Enemy,
            Sieges, and bombardments

            Art. 25.

            The attack or bombardment, by whatever means, of towns, villages, dwellings, or buildings which are undefended is prohibited.

            Art. 26.

            The officer in command of an attacking force must, before commencing a bombardment, except in cases of assault, do all in his power to warn the authorities.

            Art. 27.

            In sieges and bombardments all necessary steps must be taken to spare, as far as possible, buildings dedicated to religion, art, science, or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals, and places where the sick and wounded are collected, provided they are not being used at the time for military purposes.

            It is the duty of the besieged to indicate the presence of such buildings or places by distinctive and visible signs, which shall be notified to the enemy beforehand.

          • AlDeLarge

            I’m glad I looked, though. The hollowpoint claim is completely bogus:

            1899 & 1907

            Article 23
            Besides the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially prohibited:–

            To employ arms, projectiles, or material of a nature to cause superfluous injury;

  • The Brigadier

    Here goes the fricking FBI again with their pistol calibers. After that fiasco of a decision to the adopt the 10mm that S&W was frantic to get the FBI to adopt in ’86, that gun and the caliber has gone through a bastardized process to make it a worthless round for most combat situations. Upon adoption, small male and most female FBI agents could not handle the power of the 10mm back in the late ’80s, so the FBI went back on their decision to use a powerful handgun round exclusively. The 10mm is a magnum round, so S&W scaled back the power and made the bullet heavier and came out with the .40 S&W. Compared to the 10mm the .40 S&W is not very accurate and it lacks the killing power of the magnum round. Now they are abandoning the .40 S&W round for the weaker 9mm round. I wish they would simply stop introducing anymore new weapons so the world is equipped with both inferior firearms and crappy calibers.

    There is one final irony here. Europeans tired of he inferior stopping power of the 9mm were drawn in droves to the more powerful 10mm. Are you paying attention FBI?

  • 4Bill_O_Rights

    I’ve read of some revolvers chambered for both .357 and 9mm. Are there any pistols chambered for both? Why would they not want the option to shoot +P? Personally I like having options. Why deliberately limit one self?

  • John

    I’m somewhat confused. Didn’t the FBI, as a result of the 1986 F.B.I. Miami Shootout begin a search for something more efficient than the 9 mm which ended up, for a short time, being the 10 mm which was abandoned in favor of the Smith and Wesson .40?
    So what reasoning is being to utilize the 9 mm again? Sorry, I don’t get it.

  • TCG56

    Wouldn’t allies want to stick with the same caliber so ammunition would be interchangeable in a wartime situation? Just sayin

  • Texas Raider

    The FBI has always re-arranged the deck chairs, so to speak, when it comes to guns. They are the LAST entity that anyone should look to for firearms enlightenment. They’ve never trained Agents to be ‘gunfighters’, but rather gone with whatever wunderkid doofus in charge thinks is hip or cool at the moment. The reality is, with great training, any of the major calibers with goof ammo would be fine. I think what we are seeing here is, “Gee, our Agents can’t handle that snappy .40 or .357SIG, so we need a qualification-friendly pistol.”:
    Ironic that it was the FIB poor training that resulting in Miami ’86, and the FBI blamed a 9mm round on that debacle, leading them to play kissy with S&W and bring the shorty forty to the fore front. Now, they’re abandoning it. Who knows. Next March maybe they’ll adopt the 10mm again. Then screw it up again.

  • ed

    For the FBI the new 9mm bullets in standard to +P pressures will work well enough on “ordinary” un-body armored bad guys (as well as resulting in better re-qual scores and dollars saved), but unfortunately their agents will encounter the original 9mm problems when their agents have to shoot through windshields, body armor, wallboard, or doors. Situations admittedly less common, or when they do happen are best solved with a shotgun, carbine, or rifle – assuming one is on hand or can arrive on scene quick enough.
    What seems to be driving the return to the 9mm is diversity: many modern recruits are smaller people; and while they have college backgrounds in accounting, law, criminology, and other intellectual fields, many have little experience with firearms. Few firearm instructors would recommend that anyone’s first pistol be chambered in .40 S&W, given the pressure spike and snappy recoil, so yeah for the neophytes the 9 makes sense. But for experienced agents that can shoot the .40, .45, or .357 SIG accurately, maybe the FBI should also invest in smaller amounts of at least one standardized big caliber as well. Bigger people and good shooters shouldn’t be penalized; diversity in personnel should mean diversity in calibers and firearm tools as well.
    As far as the military, since they are probably already have long guns handy, why the change in pistol ammo? And again, diversity: there’s nothing wrong with the spec ops people still having their special side arms with more powerful ammo (.357SIG, .40S&W, .45 ACP) corresponding to their missions.
    But yes, we are talking federal government, 2014.

  • Russ

    All the joy over the nine is related to (so I have read) awesome new loadings, none of which are legal for the Armed Forces to use. It would seem that if you are stuck with FMJs and are at maximum practical chamber pressure, the nine will be at a disadvantage.

  • Mike

    Drop 40 and pic the 10 mm.and full norma loads170@1400fps.and stop the caliber wars.

  • SeeThroughYou

    Of course the US Army wants out. They are stuck using FMJ ammo and want the biggest diameter wound channel they can get while the FBI can choose the best projectile designs the world has ever seen and have 9mm loads that open to 3/4″ diameter in ballistics testing.

    I never did buy into any of this Forty Cal baloney. For me there has always been Nine or Forty Five with nothing in between.

  • Colin

    The challenge for the US military and other NATO countries is that they cannot take advantage of the technology advancement in bullets that make the 9mm far more effective for it’s size and weight. Police departments can however and do.