Breaking News: Colt is buying LWRC for $60 million (UPDATED, again)

lwrc-colt

A well placed source just told us that Colt is buying LWRC for $60 million. The deal is supposed to close on 1 March. The Maryland company may relocate to Florida or Texas and the LWRC M6 Individual Carbine (M6IC) rifle will become a Colt branded product.

Richard Bernstein purchased LWRC in 2008 for $5 million. Bernstein, who is an owner and investor in a number of private businesses, has been involved in the defense industry for a while now. In 2004 he sold BAI Aerosystems to L-3 Communications (the manufacturer of EOTech Holographic sights). One of his companies was a supplier to LWRC before he purchased it.

Our friends at All Outdoors broke the news yesterday that LWRC was up for sale.

UPDATE #1: The sale to Colt has been confirmed by another source.

UPDATE #2: The $60 million is the total for the two companies being sold (LWRC and Matech).

* Colt Holding Corp. owns both Colt’s Manufacturing Company or Colt Defense LLC.




Steve Johnson

Founder and Dictator-In-Chief of TFB. A passionate gun owner, a shooting enthusiast and totally tacti-uncool. Favorite first date location: any gun range. Steve can be contacted here.


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  • Michael R. Zupcak

    Meanwhile, Facebook buys messaging app “What’s App” for $19 Billion. I have to laugh, because LWRC actually makes something TANGIBLE!

    • hami

      Haha for AMERICA?

    • Steve (TFB Editor)

      Silicon valley funny money. But if I invested 5 mil 6 years ago and for a 60 million return on it I would be very happy.

    • Steve (TFB Editor)

      Also, why don’t you want a LWRC now? Nothing has changed?

      • Moshe Swinestein

        Nothing has changed? QC is going down period. Colt firearms are absolutely repugnant. I couldn’t believe some of the things they allowed to leave the factory. Cost controls will be implemented, while Colt wrings the LWRC name for all it’s worth. Not to mentioned that Colt is a dead end company. Practically zero innovation for the last 30 years.

        LWRC on the other hand is one of the few AR15 manufacturers that has brought real innovation to the consumer. They used a high percentage of in house parts, something that is hard to find among AR15 makers. Colt is going to come in and substitute their junk tier parts for anything they can save a buck on.

        • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

          Is this opinion of Colt an opinion based on first hand use of Colt products or rumors from a number of forums? Serious question by the way.

          • Moshe Swinestein

            In the interest of disclosure, I’ve never actually owned Colt products, but I have certainly used and handled them. I haven’t fired more than 500 rounds from Colt guns. But, I have handled and inspected a good number and have noticed various issues that I’ve never seen with LWRC. Many cosmetic issues, scratches on new guns, tool marks on parts, burn marks, just evidence of general carelessness. I know that these are mainly finish issues and that many people don’t care about these things , but I find them unacceptable if a company markets a purportedly quality product.

          • Thomas Gomez

            Wow….you are dead serious. I would take a “scratched up” Colt gun over about 90% of the current offerings from various other brands.

          • Rick

            LWRC is light years ahead of Colt, Colt rifles are maybe tier 2. QC will absolutely go down the crapper, thats what happens when huge corporate operations swallow up private companies. This is a sad day, I’m LWRC all the way. time to buy up some LWRC’s before the shitty Colt /LWRC’s hit the gunshop walls.

          • alex

            lmao tier 2.

            What are you basing this off of?

          • Thomas Gomez

            Tier 2? Really? Once again do you have any information to back these outrageous claims you are making? Most industry professionals would say that Colt is the standard that all other Ar-15’s should be compared to.

          • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

            I can agree with that Thomas. If you haven’t owned or shot a Colt a great deal an opinion like that means very little.

          • ColaBox

            From what I understand the Tier system is based on quality and craftsmanship behind the rifle.
            Tier 3 would be something like a Delton with a standard set up a single heat shield, and a pencil barrel.
            Tier 2 would be like a Stag with a full profile M4 barrel, double shielding, free floats, and higher grade materials
            (still not sure how)
            Tier 1 is something like a Spikes or Christensen with free floats as a primary set up, dipped trigger guards, nickel boron bull barrels and “golf balled” bolt carriers.
            Because nobody can really tell the quality behind a rifle outside of putting rounds down range, Rick and Moshe may be referring simply to the stylized aspect.

          • Rick

            What??? LWRC has a trademarked NiCorr barrel that lasts 20,000 rounds plus. LWRC does everything you mentioned above that a tier one does. Have you even shot, seen or opened up an LWRC, they are amazing. The Nickel Boron Is a Special recipe not used by anyone else also. Everything is made in house except for furniture. They even make there own triggers. They were the first to have a TRUE fully ambi lower. Left side mag release is milled into the reciever, and a right side Bolt catch so you never have to remove your grip hand to hold the bolt back if necassary. Do some research before you comment. Colt’s, S&W, Ruger are not tier 1, Tier2 at best. No innovation coming from anyone else but small manufactures like LWRC etc etc. It takes to much time and money to innovate and improve existing designs and sell them at cheap prices, so Colt decided to buy someone elses hard work, design and innovation. LWRC should say “Your welcome Colt”

          • n0truscotsman

            “LWRC has a trademarked NiCorr barrel that lasts 20,000 rounds plus”

            H&Ks barrels are supposed to last that long too.

            My Noveske chrome lined ones have.

          • Thomas Gomez

            I totally agree with you…I think a quality hammer forged barrel that is taken care of can last 18-20,000 rounds.

          • n0truscotsman

            Exactly!

            I don’t understand NiCorr or any other “proprietary” terms of engineering primarily because any in depth information is trademarked and effectively secret among the company.

            That invites a healthy dose of skepticism on my part because secrecy has been used as a instrument to manipulate people. Not always. But certainly in limited cases where woo woo and snake oil reigns supreme.

            In defense of LWRC, yes, their barrels are awesome. No doubt about that. But like I said before, HK barrels are awesome too (for good reason) as are Noveskes. Even mil spec M4 barrels can last a respectable amount of time.

            You gotta love modern metallurgy. We live in amazing times.

          • MICHAEL

            that is the minimum, they have one tested that still held to mil standards for accuracy after 60k

          • ColaBox

            I never mentioned Colt or Ruger.
            LWRC is a great company, one I would consider a Tier 1.
            Nickel Boron is also used in Christiansen Arms rifles.
            Read the comment before jumping to conclusions and sounding like a jack ass.

          • Thomas Gomez

            I wonder why my Ar-15’s have gone thousands and thousands of rounds without Nickel boron…just a new extractor and extractor spring every 5000 rounds. Hmm….

          • Rick

            I have both, The Colt Gov’t model was my first rifle. i bought a colt cause it was the best name in AR’s. Then i decided try my luck and broaden my horizons with an LWRC. The Colt does not compare, the fit and finish of the LWRC is amazing, i assure you. Handle and shoot both then decide. You people are following the name, not the quality of the product. I have great respect for the name Colt but they choose quantity over quality to make money. LWRC should be proud to be bought by Colt, LWRC has something Colt likes Alot. Colt couldn’t build a better Piston Gun so they bought LWRC. Colt is not Tier1 i’m sorry, the name doesn’t belong in this categorie. Noveske, Larue, Lmt, Pof, HK, LWRC. Colt will ruin the LWRC because they will go for quantity, you can’t have both, and pay the same cheap price. it’s inevitable to lose quality while doing so. Corporations are all about saving money.

          • Thomas Gomez

            I have shot both. I have an armorer certification from Specialized Armament Warehouse….the owner Ken Elmore created the Colt Armorer curriculum for Colt. I am extremely familiar with Colt and the standards and technology that is applied to their firearms. I am currently looking at a half dozen books in my library that pertain to the Ar-15/M16 family of weapons. I personally think the whole “tier” thing is BS. If I had to rank the top brands it would be COLT, SAW, BCM, DD, Noveske, Arsenal, Larue…then everyone else. There are very few companies actually creating gun that even come close to Colt quality. I am not overly impressed by Piston Ar-15’s. I think pistons create a lot more problems then they solve. I have seen a lot of piston guns with broken parts…especially parts that normally don’t break on a DI Ar….spend..or waste your money how you want. I think a properly built and maintained Ar-15 with an adjustable gas block can run circles around any piston Ar-15 currently offered. Call the guys at Arsenal Democracy and ask them their feelings in regards to the HK 416 and LWRC rifles. If I had to get a piston Ar-15 I would get an HK 416….at least it has a technical data package.

          • Lee

            500 rounds! WOW, looks like we’ve got a Bad A$$ over here…. your a tool.

          • James

            You’re
            No need for name calling

          • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

            James is right there’s never a need for name calling.

          • SacredCows

            So what you mean to tell me is that you have never actually owned or seriously fired a Colt firearm, and you think they are repugnant because they were finish issues? Every issued M4 i have every received with Colt on the side has looked like garbage finish-wise, due to the heavy use, but i have never had a malfunction that was not magazine related in the last 4 years of shooting them here, in Europe, and in Afghanistan.

          • zealot

            Colt rifles are for shooting, not polishing with diapers and leaving in your safe. Only women care about how many scratches are on their firearms… get real. With Colt buying LWRC they can legitly be considered mil-spec :P lol.

          • ramv36

            Naw, Colt sold the TDP to FN, so technically the only Mil-spec new AR/M today is a FN-Herstal.

          • zealot

            Nonsense. The only way you are going to get a milspec AR from FN is to join the Army. Colt still sells the ONLY milspec AR on the civilian market – as they still own the TDP. Hell, they even get royalties from every single m16/m4 that FN sells to the feds. FN cannot use the TDP to build civilian rifles… contract and all that – or else they would have been doing it for years. If you didnt know they’ve been building evil black rifles for the military for many years…

          • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

            You probably missed the post I did on FN back during SHOT. FN is releasing the FN15 to the public. The first ones should be shipping anytime now.

          • Alex

            The FN15 does not meet the TDP. Only their rifles sold to the military are allowed use of the TDP.

          • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

            Milspec: it’s a term that usually means nothing more than the parts are dimensionally correct to fit into a “real” M16XX or M4XX, and that’s pretty much it.
            The TDP is just a part of Mil-Spec. The military owns the TDP so I don’t see that it matters much.

            This from the Military Liaison at Knights Armament

          • zealot

            So high-pressure testing is not part of the specification? Mag-particle testing is not part of the specification? Barrel steel is not part of the specification? Bolt steel is not part of the specification? Properly staked bolt/castle is not part of the specification? Barrel twist is not? Chamber is not?!? Gotcha.

          • Thomas Gomez

            Colt did not sell the TDP to FN. Where do you get this information?

          • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

            Yea Remington pays Colt a fee on the contact 16’s they make. I imagine that applies to FN as well.

          • ramv36

            Colt is still under boycott for their past treason in cooperating with the Clinton Era gunbanners, a move that DID bankrupt the company and required multiple sales and reorganizations.
            THAT is why I don’t/won’t do business with Colt. It’s reason enough.

        • Thomas Gomez

          Your being sarcastic right?

          • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

            Don’t think he is Thomas—

        • KeithF

          Internet commando strikes again with the wisdom of the ages.. go home and shoot THOUSANDS of rounds, then come back.

          Colt makes a solid product (a BIT overpriced for the name IMO, but solid)

          LWRCi makes an excellent rifle also, they are one of the Juggernauts in the piston AR game and rightly so.

          Colt is making a move to add a “Cadillac” line of ARs that are a different animal than their standard offerings, a smart move since LWRCi is well established.

          I do have concerns for QC like some here, but mine are founded in the possible losses in efficiency from becoming a much bigger company. LWRCi won’t turn into crap, it may get better with a much more substantial R&D department, It certainly has a better shot than ever of winning a service rifle contract now.

          My biggest gripe here is a small one. I like LWRCi’s logo the way it is, Doesn’t need a horse added anywhere on the gun.

          That is all. Internet mall ninja’s return to their regular arm chair gun guruness, We’ll continue to ignore you

          • ramv36

            Colt committed treason in the 90s by working with the Clinton Gunbanners. This bankrupted them. They were sold and reorganized several times as a result.
            Due to this betrayal of their roots, their country, and their customers, I’d feel like an idiot even considering a Colt product, especially considering there are a few thousand equal-quality alternatives to every product they currently produce, be it an AR, 1911, or revolver.

        • ramv36

          I would have just said Colt is still under boycott for their past treason in cooperating with the Clinton Era gunbanners, a move that DID bankrupt the company and required multiple sales and reorganizations.
          THAT is why I don’t/won’t do business with Colt. It’s reason enough.

        • Scott

          Gladly, I will buy up anyone’s “absolutely repugnant” Colt products. You know, for scrap. Because Moshe has handled a “good number” (nice qualitative metric there), and they’re not pretty enough.
          You’ve not fired 500 rounds? How many stoppages? Are “junk tier” parts that work everytime, junk?
          I’ll take a Colt over most other players.

        • NikonMikon

          Are you kidding right now? No innovation? I’d say the LE901 is innovative… Not to mention little things like the replaceable cam pin wear-plate in the upper receiver that they have even on the 6940’s now. I don’t do much AR research but I haven’t seen that done on any other upper.

          • rkwjunior

            Colts been around for decades and your bragging about a Cam pin wear-plate??HAHA. Do some research on LWRC before you call Cam pin Wear-plate “innovation”. POF put a roller on their cam, i like that. LWRC redesigned the operation of the AR to last longer run cleaner and more reliable. Not to mention other great innovations, Like Nicorr barrels, which is trademarked. Do some serious digging on LWRC and you ‘ll see innovation. LWRC has only been around since 1999-ish. If you ask me, Colt just bought all the innovation they wish they could’ve had back when they messed with the design during the very first days of the AR. Yup, Colt dabbled with the piston design way back, but couldn’t make it work. Perhaps the technology wasn’t there back then, but either way, Colt is gonna bank on someone elses innovation, money, and blood sweat and tears.

          • n0truscotsman

            “LWRC redesigned the operation of the AR to last longer run cleaner and more reliable”

            And where is the documentation to “prove” this?

            DI guns have plenty of documentation to support that they are not as unreliable as many believe (filthy 14).

            “Like Nicorr barrels, which is trademarked. Do some serious digging on LWRC and you ‘ll see innovation.”

            Again, where is the documentation to prove the awesomeness of Nicorr barrels?

            LWRC makes pretty guns (i’ve owned one). But lets no delve into woo when were trying to talk about their unique features.

          • rkwjunior

            http://www.usmilitary.com/blogs/777/hk416-is-ready-to-take-over/

            And as far as the barrels go, i don’t think LWRC is gonna make a false claim on something they have to put to the test when they’re looking for government contracts, it’s not a ford dealership.

          • n0truscotsman

            no.

            That is NOT documentation and proof, that is a anecdote from a army times article that has been refuted over and over again.

            “A December 2005 study conducted by the 10th Special Forces Group (Airborne), for example, which evaluated the HK416 and Colt’s Close Quarters Battle-Receiver (CQB-R), concluded that CQB-R “out performed the HK416 in mechanical reliability.” Source: MSGT Kevin M. O’Connor, USA, AAR HK 416 Operations Testing and Assessment (Memorandum for Record), Department of the Army, 10th Special Forces Group (Airborne), Fort Carson, CO, p. 4.

            http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/

            http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2010-07/what-really-happened-wanat

            From someone who has extensively shot gas piston ARs and spent his own money to see what the hype is all about, they dont do anything that a colt or BCM AR15 can do.

            Sure they are beautifully constructed in many cases. Sure, they might be more accurate. But there isn’t anything “special” that they do.

            It is pure marketing (and you must be curious why Noveske or Larue don’t have gas piston models; the late John Noveske had a quite colorful opinion of them). Save gas pistons for the weapons designed from the ground up to use them.

          • rkwjunior

            What makes your source more credible than mine???
            I’m sorry but Stoppages don’t lie. People refute it because they refuse to believe that DI does has flaws. The piston is superior, it’s physics. More heat in the receiver for extended fire will have severe implications over time. dirt, heat or grime etc etc. cause stoppages, That can’t be disputed. This doesn’t happen with piston guns.
            Just because Noveske, larue etc.etc. didn’t indulge doesn’t mean it doesn’t work, they are obviously biased to the piston design . They will also stay with a product that is a guaranteed sell, the piston is relatively new to the market and they know people will just stay with what they know, it’s about money and the love they have for the DI gun. I don’t know why people have such a problem with something that works just as good if not better?? It will never take away from the DI guns history and reputation, i have respect for it, but how bout make some room for new innovation that works??? People hate piston cause it really works, and to the point that Marines and Delta Force adopted it. Most people thought it would be a flop, but its lasted damn near 20yrs.
            I actually thought DI was considered more accurate??

          • rkwjunior

            Also, those tests were disputed to save the reputation of the Military and Colt. like your article says, Colts excuse was that the M4’s submitted weren’t running properly, if thats not more reason to change i don’t know what is?? Remember what happened with the Body armor issue a few years back??. Dragon skin proved to be better but the military denied that because they would be liable for putting soldiers on the battle field with inferior Body Armor for so many years. It’s all political BS to save face. Piston is an excellent alternative and should be praised. My first was a Colt, i still have it, but if the SHTF i’m taking my LWRC.

          • Mister

            When the SHTF I’m going to take my MR556. Sorry, but the Hk is *the bar* for a piston AR, *not* the LWRC. I find it humorous defenders of the platform always use Hk’s test results to back up their copies…

          • Thomas Gomez

            Actually both designs can be plenty accurate. The question I have about the “stoppages” comes down to maintenance. Whenever I hear about Ar-15 stoppages my immediate question is…what condition were the mags in? How many rounds were through the barrel? When was the last time the extractor and extractor spring were replaced? What about the ejector and the ejector spring? How old is your buffer spring? What condition are your gas rings in? What kind of ammo were they shooting? Was it mil grade? Aside from the gas rings I would be asking the EXACT same questions if someone was having an issue with a piston Ar-15…Except…I would also have to ask…Is your disconnector broken? Are you getting carrier tilt? Are your top lugs okay on your bolt? Do your trigger and hammer pins look bent? Is your trigger pin hole slightly enlarged? Is your bolt carrier showing any fissures? Do you run suppressed a lot?

            Like I have told several other commenters…call the guys at Arsenal Democracy and ask them their feelings concerning piston guns…ask them how those guns ran after 5-8000 rounds. Ask them why their current offering is not a piston gun. Those guys are real deal operators with a ton of combat time.

            This post is loaded with a quite a bit of insight… https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=569378513111705&id=450129518369939

            I want to like pistons….I think the majority of problems with the Ar-15 is lack of maintenance and poorly made firearms. When I say maintenance I don’t mean cleaning…I mean parts replacement. An Ar-15 can run filthy…I have a test gun that I rarely clean and it gets regularly tossed in the dirt at the ranch…that gun is sandy and filthy. But it is lubed and is get a new extractor and extractor spring every 5k.

            So what LWRC rifle do you own?

          • rkwjunior

            Your concerns above mean nothing in a military trial. 10 rifles of each brand are brought to the table. 10 Hk’s and 10 M4s. They shoot 6000 rounds of the same ammo through each as fast as possible and they count the stoppages as they go. It’s a shear test of reliability in the harshest condition possible, heat and burnt powder residue build up. Since most of the heat and residue is expended out of a piston gun and not into it, reliability is improved.
            To answer all your issues with Piston platform I have to say that these issues have been rectified. These concerns that made piston guns fall flat on their face in their infancy unfortunately left a stigma, kinda like Plasma tv Burn-in, which also has been fixed. I can assure you if you go to the LWRC forums you will see first hand accounts of people who have owned these guns from the beginning and have thousands upon thousands of rounds with no sign of wear or other issues you stated above. You may think it’s bias, but why would they lie to their own forum Community?? Many of the reps from LWRC have 10’s of thousands through there guns. These issues maybe a concern with other inferior brands, but with LWRC they are not. I wouldn’t trust an Adams Arms rtro fir kit. Again it’s a stigma that has stuck from the beginning from Piston Haters, they will knock it and pick it apart cause they think it’s Blasphemy and their afraid of something new that might be better.
            I have the new SPR, which only has a few hundred down the pipe. I had an A2 upper that i bought used, supposedly it had only less than 1k when i bought it. put it on a seekins lower for a year or so that also ran without a hitch, It had a few thousand threw it with no carrier tilt issues etc. etc. I sold it to get the SPR and i have an A2 8″ upper on layaway and waiting for my stamp. both eat everything i feed it, old crappy GI mags cause i live in a Ban state. The mags i have are old with original followers and springs. never once did i have a hiccup. I’m telling you i have no problem with a DI gun, i just trust the LWRC more, i don’t fall for the hype, i give everything a chance. LWRC is a very well respected piston company if not the best and has spent time and money making a hugely reliable gun. It gives me that warm fuzzy feeling. I trust my Colt, but i trust my LWRC more. I openned up and thought hard about the piston sysytem, if you think about it hard, the design just works and makes sense. Less heat, less cleaning, more longetivity and relibility. I don’t think m4’s are unreliable nor do i think they suck, just a little less reliable than Pistons. Give them a chance, don’t listen to the stigma, trust LWRC. Get one before the good ones are gone.

          • Thomas Gomez

            Were the M4’s in the that test brand new? From what I read all the guns in that trial were brand new except for the Colt M4’s.

            I put very little stock in reps from any company telling you how well their gun works…

            There are many industry professionals that run thousands of rounds through dirty Ar-15’s with no ill effect as long as the extractor and extractor spring is in good condition.

            From the physics standpoint, pistons put a lot more mechanical wear on parts..there is no way around that. If I really wanted an op-rod type rifle I would go with the Sig 55X series, get a SCAR or an AK from Jim Fuller.

            Sorry you live in a Ban state.

          • rkwjunior

            Why would they use used M4’s, sounds like a excuse to me, the test would be nullified right from the start. Sounds like Ridiculous forum troll BS to cover up the truth.
            I put a lot of stock in words coming from long time users of the LWRC brand. Lwrc’s are being used all over the world in different special forces and militaries, that enough for me.

            Physics says your right, but with research and development parts can be made to withstand these issue or prevent them. LWRC has dedicated their time to make it work, along with the well respected HK 416.

            again, i never said that DI gun doesn’t run great or unreliable, just a little less than a Piston.

            Thats fine, go with what you feel is right, but don’t knock something thats proven to work, and assume it never will cause it wasn’t made that way in the begining, the technology wsn’t there when Colt tried it way back. People need to open up and ignore the stigmas. Besides, Colt obviously sees something it likes or it wouldn’t invest. Think about it. With the Colt name behind it, it may take off, and i’m willing to bet you see Colt/LWRC submit a New Piston Rifle with LWRC’s technology in future Military trials. Colt obviously see’s the advantage and wants a piece of the pie. Lets not deny that.

          • n0truscotsman

            Then provide the evidence that the LWRC is measurably better!

            Let the Army know!

            Lets see some hard facts and not hyperbole.

          • n0truscotsman

            1.) It makes it more credible because there were a lot of questions raised by that study that effectively put a red flag on its credibility.

            -For one, were the weapons properly maintained?
            -Were they comparing new or used M4 carbines to new carbines?
            -Did the quality control of the test carbines match trends in production guns?
            etc, etc

            I would like to see the ICC results too because they paint a rather colorful picture about comparing the different platforms.

            2.) I never said a internal piston doesn’t have flaws. All systems do. (its internal piston, not direct impingement).

            with the Stoner internal piston, you have less moving parts. Simplicity. That is reliable for 1000s of rounds. And of course, this inevitably makes it less expensive to produce and maintain.

            You also have more heat in the bolt (duh). Heat can dry out lubricant and cause thermal expansion of parts. (easy fix: use grease). This can be particularly disadvantageous when applying silencers, which is why there are 416s and SCARs among the special operations community.

            With external pistons, you have less heat in the bolt and bolt carrier. Good for suppressors.

            You also have more mechanical complexity and moving parts. More to go wrong.

            The evaluation I linked demonstrated that these tradeoffs largely contradict one another and form polar opposites. Case in point: HK 416 vs Mk 18.

            3.) Larue and Noveske ARE biased against the piston design for a damn good reason. Their experience in rifle building speaks for itself.

            That is not even getting into Vickers, who originally had a hand in designing the 416!

            The fact is that several manufacturers are cashing in on the piston craze because many gun owners are ignorant. They are looking for technology to overcome weaknesses rather than embracing superior training and mindset.

            4.) I don’t have a problem with testing gas piston ARs. The experiences gained over the past decade, however, have determined they are no more mechanically reliable than a internal piston gun. In my opinion, short stroke pistons have their inherent flaws and I would recommend either going with the internal piston AR or long stroke AK.

            To me they are a solution that looks for more problems.

            5.) The Marines didn’t adopt piston guns mainstream. The M27 IAR is a niche specific weapon system and they will be keeping their M16s (all the while looking for a PiP proposed to be designated as A5).

            Delta Force and Devgru do use the 416 in many instances because, again, those are niche specific weapon systems (particularly useful with suppressors and over the beach capability).

            Using two niche specific examples doesn’t make those weapons ideal for big army.

            6.) “DI” is often considered more accurate, although from a practical standpoint, gas pistons are just as accurate.

            The fact is that the bullet leaves the barrel long before the piston moves the gun, which means that they are both dependent on other factors that determine accuracy and not their operating systems.

          • rkwjunior

            If the test said that The DI gun came out on top, no one would question the credibility of the test. The fact of the matter is, everyone is questioning it because it shows the piston is capable of m4 reliability or better, and if it was never questioned and the piston won fair and square, it would put Colt, S&W, noveske, larue, spikes, etc etc between a rock and a hard place, not only that, but it would change the AR forever. God forbid we make the AR15 better and Stoner rolls over in his grave.
            Hypothetically, Would you believe claims that HK presented un maintained and used guns for a military trial if the piston gun lost the trial… no you wouldn’t, it screams EXCUSE?? And who the Hell would submit 10 used and un maintained M4’s in a military test, that completely nullifies the test before it even starts, it’s a ridiculous excuse. If in fact that is true, it proves the unreliability of the M4 as compared to the piston when it’s not maintained or new, which is very common on the battlefield, another reason to go piston. More importantly The military would also be severly scrutinized for providing the military with a an M4 that is inferior and putting soldiers in jeopardy, (look up Dragon Skin). It’s more political and money driven than they lead us to believe. Better yet, why does’t anyone provide proof or documentation that the HK/LWRC piston system IS still flawed or less reliable than an M4.?? Or documentation that the M4 is more infact more reliable??? Haven’t seen it!!!! Stigmas from the pistons infancy are not credible anymore because the technology has improved drastically since it’s birth.
            The money, time and dedication companies like LWRC and HK committed to this particular type of rifle mean something, and they mean alot. The Flaws that u say the piston is handicapped with is now a thing of the past due to these 2 top piston companies applying years of innovation. The names speak for themselves, HK is a hugely respected along with LWRC. For HK to even consider modifying the AR to work as a piston speaks volumes, the germans are known for world class firearms. Besides HK has their own patents that work fine, why would they venture to change the AR in the first place, why not just make a DI?? You can knock the operation of the piston all day long, but the fact of the matter is, it’s still around, and still giving the m4 stiff competition and beating it. It did not go away like everyone thought, instead one of the most well respected M4 makers (Colt) bought one of the most respected Piston maker LWRC. You’ll see piston operated Colts replacing the M4 before you know it, What else would Colt want with LWRC, pistons aren’t a true money maker like the DI, right??

          • n0truscotsman

            1.) That specific test did show piston guns as better performing, although subsequent experience afterwards drew to far different conclusions.

            There are numerous issues with the HK and SCAR platforms (inevitable since they are new platforms) that have made the M4 carbine a far more attractive option and why any “advantages” to replacing it, wouldn’t be enough to warrant billions of dollars, changes in training, manuals, etc.

            It is still a 5.56mm carbine with a max effective range of 500 meters that can fire a full battle load reliably and effectively. There is nothing to “change forever” about that. “changing forever” will require a 40kw phaser.

            Note: there IS a way to make Stoner’s design better: adding a external short stroke piston obviously isn’t it.

            2.) As far as “used” M4s go, there is no information to prove otherwise, although it is merely speculation. My focus this, as mentioned in the link i posted,

            “According to officials at colt, those reasons included the fact that six of the ten m4s drawn for the test did not meet the minimum rate of fire of 700 rounds-per-minute mandated under mil-spec iaw mil-c-70599a(ar), which requires a cyclic rate of fire of 700 to 970 rounds-per-minute. The m4s used in dust test 3, delivered to the army in june 2007, met mil-specs when delivered; however, together the ten drawn for the test from the u.s. Army inventory averaged only 694 rounds-per-minute.30 while performing comparably with the hk416, xm8, and mk16 in all other respects, the m4 carbines used in the test experienced a large number of failure-to-feed and failure-to-extract stoppages.31 colt says this is because of the sub-mil-spec rate-of-fire of the test weapons.”

            “Colt also states that atec’s testers were unfamiliar with the m4s’ 3-round burst configuration which, depending on the position of the cam, will sometimes fire 1 round or a 2-round burst before firing a 3-round burst. This unfamiliarity, said colt, led to single rounds and 2-round bursts being counted as stoppages. With the exception of the m4s, all other weapons tested were fully automatic with no 3-round burst provision. Further, colt points out that the test itself did not meet mil-spec 810f and “was not repeatable.”

            “in response to what colt described as “the premature media reporting” of the raw test data, program executive office soldier suggested that colt conduct its own extreme dust test. So colt contracted a dod-certified testing agency, stork east-west technology corporation in jupiter, florida, to conduct its own dust test according to mil-spec guidelines. In this test of ten m4 carbines, which was conducted under a protocol identical to that used in extreme dust test 3, only 111 stoppages were reported.”

            That indeed makes it ridiculous and if you think that is ridiculous, try researching the York SPAAG sometime…or the F111B. Military shenanigans.

            I’m not one to throw Colt a bone.

            3.) It is already well known, from the other link I provided, that the M4 is not any more mechanically less reliable than the HK 416.

            Adding mechanical parts to address a issue with heat is a zero sum game. You are making tradeoffs. There is no silver bullet.

            Have you heard of the individual carbine competition? the one that was cancelled?

            LWRC was a competitor. It didn’t make it past phase I. Since I wasn’t there, I cannot determine why.

            The entire ICC was a waste of time and money, but it DID conclude a inconvenient fact that there is nothing measurably “better” than the M4 that can justify the cost of completely replacing it. the law of diminishing returns and other inconveniences such as that.

            4.) Pistons’ issues with increased mechanical parts and complexity (however slight) CANNOT be addressed by innovation. It is impossible.

            Like I said, its a zero sum game. What you are solving one problem with, you are inadvertently creating another. When a firearm is designed, it has to be the most ideal compromise possible rather than being so lopsided that the platform loses its flexibility.

            I’m well aware of LWRC and HK’s guns. That doesn’t change the fact that they are retrofitted short stroke gas pistons.

            5.) What do you mean “beating” the M4?

            Bullshit.

            Lets compare how many M4s and M16s have been produced and sold compared to retrofitted gas piston ARs.

            Lets compare this to the sales of other short stroke carbines.

            The only platform that has beat the M16 is the long stroke AK (for rightful reasons), although the M16/M4 is quickly catching up. Its about economies of scale, spare parts, expertise, and production.

            6.) NO gas piston AR will replace Colts current configuration. End of story.

            It is wishful fantasy.

            The next weapon will have to be measurably better in all aspects. And it won’t be in 5.56.

          • rkwjunior

            Again, Excuses, Excuses, to protect the military and the manufacturers. As i said before, why would they even conduct the test with weapons that aren’t working up to par, It nullifies the test before it even starts??? And what kind of a testing company is “unfamiliar” with 3 round burst, and why would they continue a test with a gun that isn’t the same firing configuration??? IT”S ALL LIES, But of course you believe it cause your a piston Hater. If you don’t see through the BS, your just naive, It’s about money and politics. True piston rifles like the scar etc etc are better platforms, they all have weaknesses, but some less than others. The only weakness i see here is the US military and Colt “Covering up”, with every excuse in the book. Just because they decide to stay with the M4 doesn’t mean it won the testing, it has to do with MONEY, Politics,and obviously Logistics . You put way to much trust in the government and big corporations like Colt, but i guess you have to because we are talking about the beloved M4.

            So after losing the first test, riddled with excuses, you believe, and expect everyone else to believe, and trust that Colt conducted it’s own test, in it’s own facility , with it’s own hired contractor, “undercover”, and “coincidentally” the M4 had only 111 stoppages. HAHAHAHA??? You are truly in denial aren’t you?? If LWRC and HK conducted their own tests, with their own hired contractor, in their own facility, and got only 85 stoppages, you would also call BS, just like you don’t believe that some of the sales people at LWRC have 10’s of thousands of rounds threw personal rifles without issues, because “thats what they said”. C’mon Dude this is ridiculous BS. If this doesn’t scream “cover up” then i don’t know what is. How much did colt pay their test contractor to “keep their mouth shut”??
            Now, if these tests show the piston platform is no more reliable than the M4, according to the military and Colt, why would Colt invest in the largest and one of the most respected piston AR maker, LWRC??
            Stay with me here…..Now lets say Colt slaps their name on an LWRC and decides to enter it in a future Military trial, See where i’m going with this??…….You can be damn sure that that piston rifle will come out on top, with no excuses to be heard. The US military would never step on Colts feet and give a huge Military contract to a small company like LWRC. Could you imagine if LWRC got a full military contract with the Military,??All hell would break loose and the piston platform would explode, so Colt is now putting their name behind it. Colt can’t have this little private company (lwrc) take a massive military contract from them, and the military wouldn’t help that happen. IT”S ALL POLITICS, MONEY AND REPUTATION.
            Last but not least, it’s seems very “convenient” that the ICC is a waste of money,
            because we wouldn’t want to keep conducting tests that prove the m4 less
            reliable every year and ruin any ones reputation now would we.??? What a
            joke!!
            Think about it, think about it hard. The truth is in the pudding,
            you just choose to look past the painfully obvious BS. I’m shocked a smart guy like you can’t see through the wall of political crap, i guess when we have such a love for something we simply refuse to.

          • n0truscotsman

            First and foremost, knock off the snark when addressing me or you’re cut off. I intend on having a civil conversation.

            Excuses? you think I’m making excuses for the military industrial complex and the government’s acquisition process?

            You could not be more wrong. On different threads and sites, I have posted unfavorable things about Colt and other military arms manufacturers. I’m not going to get into that right now because it would be violating the “no politics” rule.

            I’m not a “piston hater”. I’ve spent my own money since pistons have been introduced to the civilian market because I wanted to see how they were for myself. I have over 20 plus years of experience with the AR platform and probably have fired damn near every one in existence (or at least close).

            I intended on evaluating the platforms to see which one really was “better” and if it is worth it for new shooters on a budget (not everyone has the luxury of hobby spending like I do, Ill admit) to purchase one. My conclusions are that I cannot recommend a piston gun over a standard AR given the additional price, proprietary parts, and increased complexity.

            That goes without saying that I’m grateful companies have good intentions on fielding the best rifle for our men and women in uniform (even if it is for a profit, welcome to America). The fact is that pistons have been tested exhaustively since the 416 was first introduced and there is no clear advantage to the US military as a whole adopting a platform. Given the recent reports about further downsizing, the prospect of a new rifle is a distant twilight that will disappear into the obscurity of history.

            Its interesting how supposedly the M4 is “poor” and must be relied on political favors and corruption to maintain their foothold among the troops. Special Operations bin weapons that are poor and ineffective, or at least make them go away, yet they continue to use the M4 (SOPMOD II) and Mk 18. I wonder why?

            You are peddling a lot of unsubstantiated conspiracy theories with no evidence to back it up. Why would it be “convenient” that ICC is a waste of money? The military is cutting its defense budget! Since the M4 works, there is no reason to replace it! its not rocket science.

          • rkwjunior

            Trust me when i say, i could careless if you cut me off, who do you think you are anyway???

            No, I don’t think your making excuses personally, the info you sent on the Military and Colt making excuses about a test they lost to save each others reputation and Colts contract. Conspiracy theories, it’s alot more political and money driven than anyone thinks, since when has the government been fair. These arguments are obvious, you just refuse to see past the BS, and like i said, you hold way to much trust in the government, i’m sure you really dont, but in this case you do. Don’t you think it seems ironic after losing the first test, colt hires their own testing company, at Colts facility under their own supervision and the M4 happens to score better than the HK, not slightly better than their previous test of 886ish, or on par with HK’s 230ish, but beating it?? Ya OK!!! Lets call a spade a spade, You wouldn’t believe it if HK or LWRC conducted their own tests and had better results.
            The M4 is not poor, i never said it was poor, it’s just didn’t perform like the piston in the test, but of course you believe Colts BS about the M4’s not being configured correctly, BLAH BLAH BLAH. BS.BS!~!!
            And this whole thing about extra parts BLAH BLAH, not one of these test said anything about this being an issue or a major flaw, infact i haven’t seen one test revealing any possible weekness that might keep the piston from ever getting a contract, it’s always performed admirably and better than the M4 in the testing. They just say “it’s not worth changing”.

            Good intentions??? Really??? the government or Colt could give 2 shits about the soldiers, they care more about reputation and MONEY, you can’t possibly believe that crap. Apparently you didn’t look up Dragon skin, please do!! It clearly shows how the Military turns their cheek when a better product is tested, and results are tampered with and doctored with, then the soldiers are left with sub par body armor. It happens all the time.

            It’s all there in Black and White in my previous post, it’s not conspiracy theories, it’s the reality of the military and big corporations like Colt saving and making money.

            Colt buys the rights to LWRC’s piston system and you still haven’t given me a good reason why?? I can’t imagine it’s just to fill a niche, Colt doesn’t need to fill that niche. If the M4 is good enough for the military and the future looks good for it staying in service, then why would colt need a piston rifle of LWRC’s caliber, just stay with what they produced themselves.

            Despite what you think about it’s flaws Blah Blah, Colt doesn’t seem to think that way. You wait and see, Colt piston rifles with LWRC’s technology will be on the battlefields, it may take years, but it will be.

          • n0truscotsman

            Who do I think I am? I’m far more qualified in the subject than you are (so are others on here). I’d hate to be blunt, but there it is.

            Yes I know about government and unfairness, blah, blah, ad nauseum. You are preaching to the converted.

            EVEN with colt’s shortcomings, there is still nothing measurably “better” out there in the 5.56 world. That is a indisputable fact that you have a hard time wrapping your mind around. Given the extensive experience of the 416 and SCAR since 2007 (when the dust test was first conducted), the problems of the platforms became more apparent and the M4 is looking far more desirable, especially with new modifications offered in the PiP. The SCAR’s issues? File a FOIA request. I’m not revealing it on a public forum.

            Not to get off subject, but the problems with Dragon Skin were well known. There are immense problems (F35, etc) in the defense industry and we don’t need any conspiracy mongering with body armor. Much like with the M4’s “unreliability” (which Pannone thoroughly debunked http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/, the idea of a conspiracy to keep troops in inferior body armor is just to sell newspapers and generate controversy. A repugnant act when genuine conspiracies are occurring without any publication (the F35, Bradley, etc)

            Why did Colt buy LWRC? that is between them. I don’t know and you sure don’t. I can postulate LWRC’s production means improving and that is about it. As far as fielding a new rifle for our military, HIGHLY doubtful. Budget cuts, substantial improvements and experience with the M4, and downsizing of the armed forces are insurmountable obstacles for a new rifle.

            There would need to be something of a paradigm changer in small arms to replace the M4. like caseless/telescopic ammunition or energy based weaponry. Adding a short stroke gas piston is not a paradigm changer because the FACTS have demonstrated its no more reliable.

          • Vitor

            Why not reveal the Scar issues? We all here love guns and always seeking and sharing knowledge about it. Don’t be lame with “I know dirty confidential secrets I cant share with civilians”. It is a fuckin assault rifle, you wont be a new Snowden because of that.

          • Thomas Gomez

            Thanks for injecting some logic into the conversation.

          • Thomas Gomez

            You do realize that Colt developed the M4 Carbine….the rifle that every player in the industry is currently “banking on”. Where would we be without Colt innovations, money, blood, sweat and tears.

          • Rick

            I’m sorry but the M4 is no different than the original stoner which was originally built by armalite. M4 feed ramps maybe the only real difference. The gun may As Well be made by Stag or S&w. Just cause its a Colt doesn’t make it better. There is no new innovation in the original design. Piston is a innovative alternative to the original. Just because the military banks on it doesn’t me squat, the military also has a budget and they also need to cover their butts when they realize something better has been developed, their reputation and Colts will be scrutinized if they reveal to the public their weapons are inferior. Look up Dragon skin. I’m not saying the M4 is unreliable, it’s just slightly less reliable than a piston version. I have no problem trusting my Colt, but I trust my LWRC a little more.

          • Thomas Gomez

            You should read Black Rifle II before you say that the M4 is no different then the original made by Armalite. You have no idea what you are talking about.

          • rkwjunior

            May only be speculation, but proves Colts belief in LWRC’s system, that says enough for me. You can rest assure, when FN’s contract is up Colt will be pushing the LWRC/Colt in the next trial. And just like you said, it won’t be with a 5.56, looks like the 6.8. . When Colt places it’s new LWRC piston gun all over the world in other countries, the US military will be watching closely. We both know Colt is well respected by the US military. Watch out M4.

            http://www.thebangswitch.com/wild-speculation-the-colt-lwrc-marriage/

          • n0truscotsman

            Somebody here already posted the differences between Stag/S&W and Colt! They’re quite different.

            You’re talking about the internal piston system not being “innovative” yet you think the gas piston is?

            Try reading about the Rhino gas piston system sometime. The piston system is not “innovative” either (and certainly not any more than Stoner’s original gas design).

            Again with the conspiracy peddling.

            Dragon Skin? you mean the same dragon skin that had adhesive issues and was so heavy that it was more of a encumbrance than anything? Dragon skin was shelved for a damn good reason. Perhaps future technology can make it viable again.

            Again, there is no mechanical reliability advantage of a short stroke piston AR than the previous design. This has already been confirmed by credible experts in the industry and trigger pullers.

          • rkwjunior

            Conspiracy peddling HAHA, You have blinders on, Period.

            Once again you hold to much trust in the US Military, but i truly think your ignoring the obvious political crap, and i’m not surprised.

            The military came under scrutiny because of the dragon skin being better than what they had, and of course the Military lied and said it was no better than what what was fielded….. Sounds awfully familiar, doesn’t it?? Why would anyone scrutinize the Military if this was in fact true?? Obviously someone knows something, but we’ll never know since the military is good with secrets. The militeries word is so solid.

            Nothing has been confirmed except Colt and the Military making excuses about the M4’s operation during the original test, and then hiring their own private contract to do the next set of test. Maybe it would have been more fair if they submitted “working” M4’s under the exact same circumstances and not a “Colt hired” contractor, but thats not biased. The confirmation is there in black and white in the first test, but Colt was obviously scrambling to make BS excuses for the M4 and nullify the tests. Lets keep testing, and keep testing, and keep testing until the M4 wins, behind closed doors. “convenient”

            You still haven’t told me why Colt would care about LWRC’s piston platform, if it has no significant advantages over the original, i hardly believe it would be to cash in on the open market, they have their own system?? Right??

            You know the truth, just like Colt you can’t admit defeat.

          • n0truscotsman

            You never “pressed” for me to answer about Colt buying LWRC, but its a question based off of a preconceived outcome, therefore it is not a question in good faith.

            The “answer” is that I do not know. You dont either.

            Why are you assuming that I trust the military? do you have any fucking clue about who I am or what I post?

            You missed my inquiries about the Stryker program, the Bradley, the M1 Abrams, the F35, and I could go on and on to eternity except it is terribly off subject.

            But lets see your “smoking gun” on Dragon Skin, or the M4. After all, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

            Its time to put up or STFU.

            Your pet rock will never see service and it shouldn’t. If the army wanted a gas piston AR, they would just buy uppers from Colt or HK. A far cheaper option that would have been done a long time ago had they expressed any interest whatsoever in replacing the M4.

          • rkwjunior

            Since you have so much experience in the business im curious to see what your honest opinion might be on the purchase. You must have an opinion, no??

            I don’t need to know you, your answers speak volumes. The fact that you happen to believe the military and Colts dumb excuses for losing the first test, and all of a sudden winning the second BS test shows your bias.
            The fact that the M4 went from 800ish stoppages to 111 is absolutely astonishing, what a marvel of engineering!!! Amazing what can happen when tests go the way Colt wants them to when their in control??? HAHA. They went right down below the HK416 without hesitation, it would have been more believable if they decided on 500ish stoppages, “but wait, thats not good enough, we need to beat the HK, so lets make it 111″. It’s really hilarious if you ask me. HAHA.

            My little pet rock is already in service all over the world and small amounts in the US military, baby steps. In fact LWRC just scored a huge overseas contract with the 6.8 UCIW. Now, with Colts reputation with the military, and having their name on it, makes this baby grow a little more. It’s just a matter of time before your beloved M4 slowly goes away. It may not change over nite with the logistics involved in making a change like this, but you can be assured the military is observing it’s performance in other markets. The piston platform performs better, maybe not by a huge margin but it does.
            I see a surplus of M4’s in my future, and for real cheap, but they are useless to me.

          • n0truscotsman

            My opinion, I’m indifferent. I don’t have a horse in this race because I’m not a avid fan of LWRC products OR Colt for that matter.

            “I don’t need to know you, your answers speak volumes.”

            Yeah they speak volumes in terms of dismantling your rabid fanboyism, something I have no tolerance for. Especially from somebody that obviously has a inferior grasp of simple concepts such as economics and overall common sense.

            Who said I believed Colt? oh right. Nowhere. Another strawman argument.

            Try talking to someone who has carried a 416 and SCAR in combat. Theyll tell you the platforms really aren’t that measurably better than the existing M4.

            “My little pet rock is already in service all over the world and small amounts in the US military, baby steps.”

            LMAO!!!

            “All over the world”!?

            You mean Jordan? that is not “all over the world”.

            You want all over the world? Look at the M16 and M4 carbine. Look at the AK. Look at the G36 and Tavor. The LWRC wouldn’t even make a pimple of any of those platforms’ ass. It wont either, not when M4s can be produced for less than 600 dollars a gun (and are equal in terms of overall effectiveness to a 2k dollar LWRC).

            “In fact LWRC just scored a huge overseas contract with the 6.8 UCIW”

            Oh right, in Jordan, who is producing a licensed variant by KADDB. “huge” is a poor choice of word.

            Those aren’t “worldwide’ and not “large” contracts.

            Of course the M4 is useless to you. You are clueless to the effectiveness of its application.

          • rkwjunior

            “My opinion, I’m indifferent. I don’t have a horse in this race because
            I’m not a avid fan of LWRC products OR Colt for that matter”

            HAHA, your response or lack thereof, again, speaks volumes, i was expecting you not to have an opinion, you are as clear as glass. There really isn’t to many options when it comes to speculating why Colt bought LWRC, so i appreciate your opinion, again, it speaks volumes. Here’s someone elses opinion. http://www.thebangswitch.com/wild-speculation-the-colt-lwrc-marriage/

            “Especially from somebody that obviously has a inferior grasp of simple concepts such as economics and overall common sense.”

            Why are you deflecting with “snark” insults?? My eyes are wide open, yours are shut cause your beloved M4 has met it’s match. It’s ok, ignore the politics and go with what the military and Colt say. But I’m gonna warn you, your in for a rude awakening.

            “Try talking to someone who has carried a 416 and SCAR in combat. Theyll
            tell you the platforms really aren’t that measurably better than the
            existing M4″.

            The fact of the matter is, they are better. and i call 800ish to 200ish “plenty measurable”. Oh wait, that test didn’t count right??? HAHA Good one!!!.

            “You want all over the world? Look at the M16 and M4 carbine. Look at the
            AK. Look at the G36 and Tavor. The LWRC wouldn’t even make a pimple of
            any of those platforms’ ass.

            The M16 and M4 have been in service for decades, so they became prolific over time. Like i said before, “Baby steps”. I can assure you, now that Colts name is behind it, that pimple is gonna get massive.

            “It wont either, not when M4s can be
            produced for less than 600 dollars a gun (and are equal in terms of
            overall effectiveness to a 2k dollar LWRC). ”

            HAHA Really, Your gonna teach me about economics and common sense?? This is elementary. Colt/LWRC’s will be manufactured for a lot less when Colt gets their grimy little hands on it and suck every ounce of quality out of the LWRC, and when the rifle is bought buy the thousands, the price drops considerably. I shouldn’t have to explain this .
            The cheapest LWRC M6SL is around $1400, but this price is for consumers, small companies that make high quality products naturally charge more. LWRC’s M6 SPR is high priced ($2k) as compared to it base model, but the differences are substantial, especially to an M4. Companies like Colt, S&w, stag etc etc, (assembly line AR’s) can drop prices for obvious reasons. #1 lack quality and #2 quantity. “That’s Economics 101″, and “Common Sense”

            “Oh right, in Jordan, who is producing a licensed variant by KADDB. “huge” is a poor choice of word.

            Those aren’t “worldwide’ and not “large” contracts.”

            Yes, Jordan is not huge as compared to a company like Colt getting a contract with the US, but to LWRC,it is huge, and Colt see’s this. The US military will be keeping an eye on that, i’m sure they hold Colt in high regard. I’ll say it again, “Baby Steps”.

            It’s not easy replacing a product that has been around for the better part of 60yrs, the new product has to be trusted overtime by small players before the big players will jump on board. This is also called “common sense”.

          • n0truscotsman

            “My opinion, I’m indifferent. I don’t have a horse in this race because
            I’m not a avid fan of LWRC products OR Colt for that matter”

            I’m not necessarily disagreeing with Mac (from a post titled “wild speculation” albeit) and you haven’t refuted anything that I’ve said. It is well known Colt has issues with innovation and there is the current drama over FN producing M4 carbines now. It is natural that they would butt in on LWRC’s market share (as someone here eloquently put it, “colt wants a Cadillac line of ARs”), given the amount of AR shooters that are drawn to gas pistons, but the idea that it is because of “foreign interest/sales” is simply an exaggerated stretch.

            The fact is that countries are buying westernized weapons to replace their AKs and cold war battle rifles. A overwhelming majority of these weapons are M4 carbines and M16s (whether they’re produced by Colt, FN, Bushmaster, etc), followed by Tavors and anything else in between. Looking at the quantity of countries that purchased M4 carbines, you would be amazed.

            “Why are you deflecting with “snark” insults??”

            deflecting no. I made that statement because you seem to think the LWRC will explode on the world market and take the world by storm. As I’ve said before, with the other more viable options available, that is utter bullshit.

            Beloved Colt? I already told you I prefer other brands of ARs to Colt. The fact doesn’t change either that a smaller number of AR manufacturers make their ARs to the same standard. The fucking graph is here to read if you care to do so.

            “The fact of the matter is, they are better. and i call 800ish to 200ish “plenty measurable”. Oh wait, that test didn’t count right??? HAHA Good one!!!.”

            Prove that they are better.

            On the Ranger Bat side of things, the SCAR L was taken out of service. In the Special Operations community, its problems are well known and the cost of the platform couldn’t be justified when they can just upgrade the M4.

            Then there is the HK 416, which is being used in small numbers in that same community for over the beach operations and to run suppressed carbines (where they would admittedly have a edge over the M4 in many aspects).

            Yes, many questions were unanswered following the 2007 dust test.

            Funny how you ignore the ICC competition…

            “The M16 and M4 have been in service for decades, so they became prolific over time. Like i said before, “Baby steps”. I can assure you, now that Colts name is behind it, that pimple is gonna get massive.”

            No, it simply is not. End of story.

            Why would those nations buy a LWRC carbine (which STILL wont be cheaper than Colt’s own M4 even if Colt produces the damn things) when there is no empirical evidence that they make the average infantryman more effective?

            More delusional pandering.

            Overtime?

            “HAHA Really, Your gonna teach me about economics and common sense?? This is elementary. Colt/LWRC’s will be manufactured for a lot less when Colt gets their grimy little hands on it and suck every ounce of quality out of the LWRC, and when the rifle is bought buy the thousands, the price drops considerably. I shouldn’t have to explain this .”

            /facepalm

            and even if Colt does produce those carbines, will they be under 600 dollars a unit? (especially after producing carbines since the original over 50 years ago, driving the cost down through economies of scale?)

            In a word: no.

            50 years from now, we will laugh at the idea of using brass cased cartridges to fling lead downrange as we grasp our phase disruptors.

            Again, thank you for proving my point about your limited grasp of reality.

            “LWRC’s M6 SPR is high priced ($2k) as compared to it base model, but the differences are substantial, especially to an M4.”

            The question is: substantial enough to warrant billions of dollars in purchasing new carbines, training manuals, etc?

            Substantial enough to balk at M4s, Tavors, AKs, etc?

            “Companies like Colt, S&w, stag etc etc, (assembly line AR’s) can drop prices for obvious reasons. #1 lack quality and #2 quantity. “That’s Economics 101″, and “Common Sense””

            You are comparing Colt with S&W and Stag again. Somebody already posted this so im going to re-post it since you keep posting the same nonsense over and over again

            http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2r2an40&s=8#.Uw91NtJDs0Q

            They are able to drop prices because of economies of scale. Learn about that meaning sometime.

            “Yes, Jordan is not huge as compared to a company like Colt getting a contract with the US, but to LWRC,it is huge, and Colt see’s this.”

            LWRC is licensing a Jordanian small arms company to manufacture the rifles…

            baby steps my ass.

            “It’s not easy replacing a product that has been around for the better part of 60yrs, the new product has to be trusted overtime by small players before the big players will jump on board. This is also called “common sense”.”

            From a military perspective, those new products have to be measurably better than the tried and true old piece of equipment.

            You are spending millions and sometimes billions to replace rifles, training manuals, training regimens, magazines, calibers (if applicable), etc etc.

            In the world of small arms today, it is a catch 22 for anything using current technology.

            The US military wont adopt anything new unless it has a substantial improvement in capability and there wont be a substantial improvement in capability because the military wont move from 5.56.

            Ditto for other nations.

          • rkwjunior

            “It is natural that they would butt in on LWRC’s market share (as
            someone here eloquently put it, “colt wants a Cadillac line of ARs”),
            given the amount of AR shooters that are drawn to gas pistons, but the
            idea that it is because of “foreign interest/sales” is simply an
            exaggerated stretch.”

            I think it’s pretty close minded to think Colt purchased LWRC for the common man only, While the purchase of AR’s by Jordan is not huge by any stretch, it proves that the product they have is worthy of military use, not saying Jordan is any sort of a superpower. Jordan fielded the rifle for 2 yrs and did extensive testing, LWRC needed to start somewhere. LWRC sold the License to get the sale. This is common for international sales
            especially in the Middle East where they want you to invest in local
            industry to get their money. Whether quality is sacrificed i don’t know, maybe, but Colt doesn’t seem to care since their probably putting out the same quality as the Jordanians. It ‘s unfortunate they couldn’t keep it here to put Americans to work, but they are in a big sea of fish doing the same thing.

            “50 years from now, we will laugh at the idea of using brass cased
            cartridges to fling lead downrange as we grasp our phase disruptors.”

            I strongly disagree. If you heard experts talking 50yrs ago they were saying we’d be flying around like George jet-son by 2010. The last dealership i drove by, every car still had 4 wheels with rubber tires and an internal combustion engine. We’re not even smart enough to replace gas with hydrogen.

            “and even if Colt does produce those carbines, will they be under 600
            dollars a unit? (especially after producing carbines since the original
            over 50 years ago, driving the cost down through economies of scale?)”

            Even if they can’t, which i strongly disagree. The Military will still buy the product if they are convinced overtime that it is better, upgrading sometimes means spending more money, thats life. The military is being cut now but it may not stay that way with another administration hopefully 2 yrs away. And finally, with Colts name and past relationship the military may ignore the slight premium.

            “Funny how you ignore the ICC competition…”

            As far as the 2010 ICC goes, LWRC dropped out in phase one, along with Knights Armament, S&W, Stag, and Colt with it’s CM901, for reasons of not wanting to give up trade secrets if they won or being able to complete the high volume of manufacturing required to fill the order, Colts reason was trade secrets, But i guess they don’t mind buying someone else’s) And as far as the phase 2 testing goes, the results have never been released by the military, they’re saying the competition (HK) isn’t measurably better than the M4. HAHA!! I call BS!!! Then obviously it was cancelled. Sorry, but i’m not buying that line of shit. The military would never admit the M4’s faults to avoid scrutiny .

        • Jon C.

          Yet your favorite rifle of all time is an LWRC that you’ve never owned??

          Then you say you’ve never owned a Colt. LWRC has repeatedly put out problematic rifles and changed hands a couple times.

          Before you bash products you’ve never even owned, maybe you should try doing some real research. It’s not good to bash a good company and it certainly doesn’t do anything or you.

          • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

            Well I have carried a Colt LW Commander and Government model for decades and I’ve lost count of the rounds fired and I’ll have to disagree with Moshe.

        • n0truscotsman

          Innovative? the LWRC is a short stroke gas piston conversion.

          Nothing innovative there and certainly nothing that Colt hasn’t tried in the 1980s. Try googling “Rhino AR15 conversion” sometime.

          I’m not defending Colt, although in their defense, the articulating link piston and 901 is unique (although not certainly groundbreaking).

          I just have no tolerance for somebody foaming at the mouth over what is essentially a over-engineered gas piston conversion kit.

    • Thomas Gomez

      Why is it a sad day for America?

      • Michael R. Zupcak

        Because I’m not the only one who’s sorry they didn’t pick up an M6-series before it gets re-branded. That’s hoping a re-branding is the only thing that happens to LWRC’s products. I simply can’t see how Colt’s acquisition is going to make LWRC’s products any better. I’m not saying they’ll get worse.

        • Thomas Gomez

          I see your point..though there is a lot of industry professionals that don’t necessarily feel LWRC makes a better product then Colt or that there are any useful benefits to piston guns over DI type rifles.

    • Andrew

      So instead, Facebook could’ve bought LWRC 316 times, and had 40 million left over for office supplies.

      Still, 60 million isn’t bad for a small recently started firearms company. Now you know why every Joe Bob and his brother are opening up “Ninja Defense Tactical Armory” in their garage these days (aka they spend an hour assembling an AR-15 and then charge you twice what the parts cost).

      • ramv36

        aka they spend an hour assembling an AR-15 and then charge you twice what the parts cost

        I thought that’s all LWRC did? If not, I wouldn’t see their branded-products all over CDNN and Cheaper than Dirt.

    • PaulD

      By your logic, Google and Microsoft don’t really make anything tangible either. Are they overvalued?

      • Michael R. Zupcak

        …Except for all those Nexus phones/tablets, upcoming Google glass, uhhh, the XBOX, Surface RT tablets, countless PC accessories like keyboards and mice, headsets, webcams, shall I go on?

        • PaulD

          At least in the case of Google, they’re not making money on that hardware. The hardware exists to increase market share and reach of their services. As for MSFT, they’re enterprise software and services (SQL, Azure, etc) are the big money makers now. That’s why the head of that group just became CEO.

          The real point here is that just because the product isn’t discrete and tangible doesn’t mean it doesn’t have value.

        • Chris Hale

          All of those things were possible because of the billions they made developing and selling software. Not the other way around.

          • Michael R. Zupcak

            I never said what was possible for what reason, I pointed out that Google and Microsoft do indeed make products.

    • n0truscotsman

      Im going to let you in on a little secret:

      .
      .
      .
      .
      .
      …There are better AR15 variants than what LWRC offers.

      • Michael R. Zupcak

        Can you name names, please? I’ve already started looking at a SIG 516 upper since I’ve decided not to go the LWRC/Colt route. I want a piston rifle, so what brands do you like for piston ARs other than LWRC and SIG? Thanks.

        • n0truscotsman

          If you want a piston rifle, buy a design that is built from the ground up for a piston and not a AR design. Preferably long stroke.

          I cant recommend a gas piston AR because they are unnecessary.

          There are plenty of internal piston designs that are just as reliable, if not more so, and far superior built than gas piston frequenters.

    • EzGoingKev

      WhatsApp is the most popular texting app in Asia. They are hoping to get access to that market.

  • hami

    Being unfamiliar with purchases like this… Does this mean that LWRC rifles will be re-branded as Colt moving forward? Or that LWRC will still be marketed separately from Colt? Presumably taking advantage of Colt’s larger distribution base.

    • Steve (TFB Editor)

      I don’t know. It is hard to say. Most of Remington’s acquisitions, for example, remain as brands (DPMS Panther Arms, Bushmaster etc.).

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

      hami they can brand it either way they want. It’s just a guess but I’d say keep the LWRC name.

  • 101nomad

    We will need all the firearm manufacturers we can get in the free states.

  • kilwaukee

    I wouldn’t be surprised if Colt was mostly interested in their ambi controls, maybe we will see more lowers released to the public. I know I’d like one, but not for 6-700+.

    • xyz

      I wonder what the warranty situation will be like with Colt

      • MICHAEL

        they will have to keep the same warranty on the lwrc rifles already sold which means, we are gtg. The new rifles may be different however

  • muell463

    double post

    • Steve (TFB Editor)

      18 hours apart …

      • muell463

        im kilwaukee below, and stupid.

  • DougE

    Great, all the Colt fanboys needed was a little more encouragement.

  • Esh325

    I’m not sure I see the point. Is the point to take advantage of existing manufacturing bases? Colt already has a piston rifle of his own, how are they going to TWO piston rifles under their name?

    • Thomas Gomez

      I totally agree with you and have been pondering the same thing.

  • ColaBox

    So will we be seeing Colt or LWRC quality in future products?

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

      Some of those working for LWRC may stay with the company. If that’s the case they may still handle the day to day workings.

  • Harrison Jones

    I hope this means lower prices, but I’m afraid the forward thinking will slow down. I love my colts including my 6940 but come on they should have gone to a slick rail years ago. Colt builds great guns but they haven’t been keeping up with the current times in terms of rails and accessories. I hope LWRC continues to be marketed separately and have their own ability to decide their product lineup.

    • Michael

      colt not keeping up is typical in other industries with big business, the bigger they are the slower they move.

    • Beju

      Colt’s started to take some steps to keep up with the rest of the market in the past year or two. Carbines with non-mil-spec furniture, .308 AR, etc. I know it’s years after everyone else, but it looks like FN getting the Army M4 contract is finally forcing them to take baby steps in the right direction.

      FWIW, I also like the 6940, but Colt putting out a mid-length and/or KeyMod type rail system in a monolithic upper would be dangerous to my wallet.

    • Moshe Swinestein

      I don’t want lower prices. I’d happily pay $5000 for an LWRC, just as long as I knew that there would be absolutely zero flaws. Best materials, manufacturing processes, perfect fit and finish. LWRC was, in my opinion, the best you could get in the world of AR’s. Now, a once great brand will sink to the level of Colt. Not the worst, admittedly, but not far off.

      • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Alex C.

        You realize Colt is pretty much the best of the non-boutique ARs right?

        http://i59.tinypic.com/2r2an40.jpg

        • Thomas Gomez

          Cheers!

        • Rick

          Once you go below boutique they’re all the same crap.

          • NikonMikon

            Geezus christ you are one kool-aid drinking motherf***er…

          • Thomas Gomez

            Really? Once again do you have any facts to back up your statements?

        • J.T.

          I wish Rob wouldn’t have given up on the chart. I wonder where the Sig M400 falls.

        • micko77

          So help me out here. I’m 57 years old, thinking of buying my first AR, live within spitting distance of LMT, Les Baer, Rock River Arms… with in-laws working @ Rock River, likely get a good price break if it’s a brand that I should be even interested in. I understand that $2k will meet all of my needs, as I will not compete, nor go to the sandbox; rather, it’s self-defense and the odd coyote, plus simple fun shooting that I’m interested in. Suggestions? LWRC ain’t in the cards at $5k!

          • NikonMikon

            go to your walmart and buy a colt 6920 or 6940, they’re good guns for the price. Here the 6920 goes for $1097.

          • micko77

            Thanks!

          • Thomas Gomez

            I completely second that. Can’t go wrong with a Colt.

          • n0truscotsman

            You took the words out of my mouth.

            Probably the “best” “budget” AR you can get. and you certainly aren’t going wrong with that choice.

      • Thomas Gomez

        Ever heard of a new company called Arsenal Democracy? It was started by a couple of Special Forces soldiers…they are building some incredible guns. One should note that they had a terrible experience with their LWRC rifles as well as piston guns in general. One of their complaints with LWRC is the awful customer service they experienced while they were in an active warzone. Their guns utilize the standard Ar-15/M16 gas system…

        • MICHAEL

          I call bs on this as one of the things most noted for them is their fantastic CS. Also, SF did not use these in combat but the drug interdiction forces did. Also, the A2 was one only 2 rifles to ever fully pass the SEAL OTB test….I call bs on those guys….

          • Thomas Gomez

            Call them up and ask them how they feel about LWRC. Ask them why they aren’t using a piston on their rifles.

          • n0truscotsman

            “Ask them why they aren’t using a piston on their rifles.”

            LOL exactly.

            ;)

            Another good one to contact in regards to why they didn’t use pistons was the late John Noveske.

          • Thomas Gomez
      • n0truscotsman

        The best?

        Ever hear of Noveske, Larue, Arsenal Democracy, Hodge Defense, to name a few?

        Oh right. They’re not superhoodakai short stroke gas pistons, therefore they lose their place in “best”.

        (excuse me while I go laugh my ass off)

  • Christopher

    Say goodbye to any quality that LWRC firearms might have had.

    • Thomas Gomez

      Why do you say that?

  • B

    At least the headline is not Freedom Group!!! Looking forward to seeing where this goes. A larger availability of LWRC rifles would be great. Always at the cutting edge of AR innovation, not so much on getting stuff to market.

  • Moshe Swinestein

    Sad day. LWRC is going from among the best to among the worst.

    • Thomas Gomez

      Do you have any real facts to back up your comments? Colt has some of the highest and most stringent quality control in the industry. Ever heard of the Colt Technical Data Package?

      • ramv36

        “Ever heard of the Colt Technical Data Package?”

        Yeah, and have you heard they hold zero rights to it after they sold it to FN-Herstal, the new supplier of mil-spec gov’t rifles?

        • Joseph0509

          If Colt has “zero rights to it,” why does FNH pay royalties to Colt?

        • Thomas Gomez

          Colt did not sell the M4 TDP to FN. If you have a copy of Black Rifle II, written by Christopher Bartocci, pages 86 and 87 discuss the litigation between Colt and FN in pretty good detail. Long story short….Colt developed the M4 with it’s own money. The development of the M4 did not involved mixed funding..which meant that M4 technical data was not an enhancement of M16 data under the 1967 License. The courts ruled that the M4 was not a derivative of the M16 but an entirely new system. Pages 67 through 105 discuss the development of the M4 and the technical differences between it and the M16. The details of FN’s bid to produce the M16 are found on page 20 and 21.

  • Rusty Shovel

    I’m so disappointed. Colt’s rearward thinking and rotten customer service will ruin LWRC.

  • LWRCFAN

    Colt is crap. Their MARSOC 1911 cracks. Their AR’s are junk. I know many gun stores that won’t sell their Sh..! I’m glad the owner can sell but, selling to Colt is beyond sad. Nobody cares if you just bought a Colt but everyone wants to see the new LWRC you bought. Thank God I bought several before they screw it up. There goes the American HK 416 down the drain. HK is laughing their ass off right now.

    • Thomas Gomez

      Do you have any real evidence to back up your statement about Colt rifles being “crap”?

      • LWRCFAN

        Yes. Really no need to say anymore. After reading these post it’s obvious most people here have very little knowledge of the firearms industry.

        • Thomas Gomez

          No no…please elaborate. Did they stop T6 tempering their aluminum? Did they stop using 158 Carpenter steel in their bolts? Did they remove the piece of tungsten from the buffer and substitute it with another piece of steel? Are they only offering 1/9 twist rates in their barrels? Did they switch to 6061 aluminum? Did they stop using Mil Spec barrel steel?

          The MARSOC 1911 procurement had to do more with logistics then anything else…

          The Hk series of rifles has had it’s fair share of problems also…

          I agree with you..most people know nothing about the firearms industry.

          • Suburban

            Lol. 1960’s metallurgy.

          • Thomas Gomez

            So what advances in metallurgy should Colt pursue now that we are in 2014? It’s funny you mention metallurgy…I wish all the companies currently making M4 clones would at least try to come close to Colt’s metallurgical standards…

          • Suburban

            Almost everyone uses 158 Carpenter steel for bolts, because they only purchase them from a supplier, and that’s what’s available.

            A few manufacturers are now using Nickel Boron coating for reducing friction, heat dissipation, and corrosion resistance. Good on them.

            Cro-moly steel is more desirable than stainless for service rifles, that may be used for sustained firing. Probably 98% ore more of ferrous steel AR-15 barrels are either 4140 or 4150 Cro-Moly. Although some make a big fuss about 4140 not being “mil-spec” and inferior, the difference is really pretty negligible.

            A few manufacturers have started to use ferritic nitrocarburizing (a.k.a. Tennifer, Melonite) to harden and increase the corrosion resistance of cro-moly steel barrels. A nitrocarburized barrel will have a longer service life than a chrome lined barrel.

            Barrel life can also be increased by hammer forging. Bravo Company, Spike’s Tactical, Palmetto State Armory, and a few others offer hammer forged barrels. Colt Canada (Diemaco) rifles have hammer forged barrels, but Colt Defense and Colt commercial rifles do not.

          • Thomas Gomez

            There are very few companies actually using 158 carpenter steel due to cost. Most just use 8620 and hope their end users don’t ask to many questions. 9310 Carpenter is a possible viable alternative but the jury is still out on that one.

            Nickel boron…jury is still out on that one also. Mike Pannone…former Delta operator who has an extensive knowledge base about that M16/M4 platform, tested nickel boron bolt carriers and doesn’t see an benefits over a Phosphate coated carrier.

            Hammer forged barrels rock!

    • Jon C.

      I know man. It must drive you nuts that the company that makes the rifle you shoot once every couple weeks at the indoor range is now owned by another company.

      You have absolutely zero clue what you’re talking about. You hobby plinker say the dumbest things sometimes.

      • Beju

        Hey now, sometimes I shoot outdoors in gentle breezes! ;)

        • Jon C.

          Haha!

          You know, I really don’t ask much of people, but at least have experience with, or preferably own, the product your claiming is the best (or worst) thing ever…

          Why people insist on trashing a product they’ve never owned will always blow my mind!

        • Thomas Gomez

          Those gentle breezes….lol

    • n0truscotsman

      LOL

      LWRC???

      You mean a retrofitted short stroke gas piston system trying to solve a problem by creating more problems?

      The armed forces doesn’t need a piston conversion. The DI works just fine.

  • Dan Moore

    Windham Weapons are better.

    • Thomas Gomez

      Why?

      • JumpIf NotZero

        This site is getting more and more questionable in the comments section… Seriously… Windham Weapons? (Bushmaster 2.0)

        • Dan Moore

          Yes. Bushmaster was bought out and moved away. The former owner and employees in Windham Main started up manufacturing of AR rifles and improving on the quality.

          • Thomas Gomez

            How? What “quality” did they improve upon? If you could show me technical data that show they even come close to Colt I would buy one in a heartbeat.

      • Dan Moore

        When Bushmaster was bought out and moved away. The former owner and employees in Windham Main started up manufacturing of AR rifles and improving on the quality.

  • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

    All we can do right now is guess what will happen to the brand. It will take some time before all the details are available and we know for sure how LWRC will be structured (or not) within Colt,

  • Lance

    Colt just bought up SOCOMs major Mk-18 maker. Not surprised. Heck Bushmaster and DPMS are now Remington and Colt and LWRC are one. just leave Olympic Arms, and Armalite left as independent old time AR makers

    • Alex

      Uhhh, Colt makes the CQBR and MK18 for the military. The only rifles that LWRC have had overseas are probably with the DEA FAST teams.

      lol if anything Olympic Arms would benefit from being bought up by anyone and getting straightened out.

      • JumpIf NotZero

        I’m quite upset that Discus changed their Down Vote system today. Now the Lance posts won’t show how many people down voted. Not cool.

  • In_The_Know

    Looks like there is more to the story than meets the eye:
    http://www.fd-defense.com/index.php/home/fd-news

    F&D Defense may be the actual inventor of LWRCI technology?

    Heavy lawsuit hits critical mass for LWRCI defense strategy?

    • J.T.

      I looked into it a little.

      The plaintiff, Corby Hall, is the owner of F&D Defense. He did some contract work for LWRC when they were designing the REPR. It seems he was running around on the internet claiming he designed a lot of the stuff on the REPR and someone that worked for LWRC when the REPR was being designed called him out on it. All this even though in his own stuff he has submitted to the court seems to show he was just contracted to submit more refined CAD drawings and minor design tweaks from rougher first drafts that LWRC had made and sent to him (probably converting their designs into a format they could input into their CNC machines). He also claims LWRC said they would hire him if they liked the work he did and then never even offered him an interview. He then got mad and went to make his own company to compete with them.

      My guess is they didn’t like the work he did so they didn’t hire him as an LWRC employee and then contracted someone else to redo the work he did for them.

      99% chance this sale to Colt has nothing to due with this guy’s lawsuit and he is just trying to make himself feel like he matters.

      TL;DR LWRC designs gun. LWRC contracts F&D owner to do CAD work from their designs. F&D owner claims to have designed LWRC gun online. Someone from LWRC calls him out. He starts suing people because his lies got his reputation damaged on a public forum.

      • In_The_Know

        Geeze……. I looked into it to and read it nothing the way you read it.

        It appears Corby Hall only mentioned that he works on the REPR design and that LWRC representatives started attacking and threatening him. There is no mention of him getting mad at anyone even though he wasn’t paid for his work. It looks like the LWRC sale has a LOT to do with the lawsuit considering the facts that seem to be uncontroverted by LWRC according to those court filings.

        You sir, need to learn to read! Throwing in your little tidbit non-factoids is a little far-fetched.

        • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

          This is why we have courts. They are the fact finders and have the final say.

          • Casey Anthony

            Yea and they’re really good at doing it too…

          • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

            Yea it takes some time but eventually they’ll figure it out.

          • JumpIf NotZero

            Whoosh!!

          • BuzzKillington

            LOL

      • Brian Shirley

        [EDITOR HAS REMOVED THIS COMMENT]

        • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

          Certainly–everyone if free to post their view and understanding of these events.

          • Brian Shirley

            [EDITOR HAS REMOVED THIS COMMENT]

          • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

            I can understand that and it’s always good to have someone close to the events posting information.

        • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

          I understand that Corby is representing himself in court! I’ve found several references that all say the same thing. He will present his own case.
          That doesn’t really seem like a wise move.

          • Corby

            [EDITOR HAS REMOVED THIS COMMENT]

          • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

            Corby,

            Well I certainly want the hearing to be fair and an equally well represented one.
            I still have to believe it’s a risky move as things get more intense as they always seem to do.
            As I’ve said earlier we’ll stay neutral until the court renders it’s decision.There’s just not a sufficient amount of information for TFB to do otherwise. I can only say may the truth come out and the best man/company win.

        • ac434

          All companies that I’ve worked for and worked with have a NDA and other supporting documents meaning that all work performed and rendered are property of the company. Is working for the Gun industry any different than say the Semiconductor industry?

      • Confuncted

        “My guess is they didn’t like the work he did so they didn’t hire him as
        an LWRC employee and then contracted someone else to redo the work he
        did for them.”

        I’m still trying to figure out why a multimillion dollar company like LWRC would need to hire an outside person to help them with engineering work? And how old was he at that time, like 25 or something?

        And how does a non-lawyer hold his own against a multimillion dollar corporation and their high priced lawyers for over 6 months?

        • Brian Shirley

          [EDITOR HAS REMOVED THIS COMMENT]

          • Army127

            First of all I have never even heard of your company until today, and after checking out your website, it seems that someone is definitely copying someone’s design of these rifles. It seems to me since your company hasn’t really been at the fore front of anything that maybe it might be that you have borrowed some designs from LWRCI? Your rifles look amazingly alike theirs which seems strange to me. I see you weren’t at SHOT this year either, why not? No new designs? If your CEO or whatever his title is invented the piston system among other parts as you say then why aren’t you the big huge company with all the lawyers? This is strange as well, no? I believe it’s exactly as stated that your guy Corby was hired to finalize and tweak some designs and drawings that were already done so they could be inputted into LWRCI’s CNC machines and that he was paid for his work, then butt hurt when they didn’t offer him a full time gig.

            Your boy then started his own company using LWRCI’s drawings and amazingly you make rifles that look almost exactly like LWRCI’s products, strange, no? Now if this isn’t the case and all those designs were Corby’s as he states then why is your company not in LWRCI’s place right now, strange again. Instead you are a little known company with rifles that look like another companies rifles.

            I think you and your company just want a piece of this sale to Colt so you can have your 15 minutes and get a payday from all of this. Here is my guess as to the end of this whole situation in a week or so the sale of LWRCI to Colt Holdings will be finalized and your little company F&D Defense will disappear into obscurity again and be lucky if its around in another 2-3 years.

            Before you try to bash me as some idiot I am not, I did my research, read both sides of these complaints, and checked out your company since I had never heard of it before. It’s a shame what this Country has turned into, where anytime some big company is sold some guy or group comes forward and sues

          • Corby

            [EDITOR HAS REMOVED THIS COMMENT]

          • Corby

            [EDITOR HAS REMOVED THIS COMMENT]

          • Army127

            Corby, I will only say a few things, number one don’t ever call me son again boy! I am not your son! Second read my post again as I said you did do work for LWRCI just didn’t get hired full time by them. I can only go by what I read and what I see so I get to have an opinion just as you do. It seems that I struck a nerve since you got all upset by my posts. I figure if what you say is actually true, why did you not sue them for patent infringement a long time ago. As for Colt it takes more than a couple of days to buy a large company and the sale has been in the wind for a while in the industry. Personally I don’t think Colt or LWRCI has anything to worry about with such a small insignificant company in this industry. If you feel the need to challenge Colt good luck! That would be funny to see. As for your claim it would have more weight if you had sued a long time ago for patent infringement. As for SHOT I read it on your website and why not go? It’s the best place to get new products introduced and to get media attention for your company correct? As for who I am an what my values are you have no idea who I am or what I am about. I spent 15 years in the Army until I was injured in combat in Iraq in 2009 during my 2nd tour such is my nickname! If you want documentation I will send it to an email that works since the one you put at the end of your post does not. I have better core values than you will ever have, thanks, and I have done more for this Country in combat than you ever will with your tiny company.

            I hope that you are doing the right thing and the things you say are correct because if you are just trying to get a piece of the Colt deal that’s just embarrassing! Oh and I have no stake in this one way or the other, it’s just that your side looks shady. Maybe I am wrong and that’s fine but remember everyone gets to express their opinion, either way.

            SSG G.O.
            US ARMY MED RET
            VFW Life Member
            NRA Distinguished Life Member
            Wounded Warrior Project Alumni

          • Corby

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          • Army127

            I don’t consider it petty I consider it getting both sides out in the open and I appreciate that you acknowledge that we both have opinions and rebuttals. My values are very important to me and you wanted to know who I was so I told you. As I said good luck and I hope you do win if what you say is correct. I wasn’t trying to use my military service for anything, just trying to let you know who I am. I also believe in those core values thank you and I live them as well. You speak of the Freedom group and I agree with you 100% on that. They are a or to buy too many companies and that is worrisome. As for Colt they are not part of the Freedom Group. Again good luck and if all you say is correct then I believe you have a good chance of winning. As far as I know the purchase is not on hold and will be going through tomorrow. Good luck sir and you never know stranger things have happened, but I see this as a settlement or who knows as this point. Time to wait and find out. Now you can stop calling me no name which is very rude as I have used your name when speaking to you, but hey if you win I will support you in the fact that I will acknowledge that you won and congratulate you.

            SSG George

          • Corby

            [EDITOR HAS REMOVED THIS COMMENT]

        • BuzzKillington

          After reading these two court documents, all I can conclude is this is all in the name of publicity for F&D. He should have retained a lawyer. Unless of course one isn’t needed when the only goal is fight a grudge match and cause headaches while gaining publicity.

          Side charging handle, receiver shelf, and a flared magwell……since when did LWRC invent these things? Those documents reek of butthurt. This isn’t even about the REPR. It’s about another rifle and the claim is that “the REPR resembles the SABR so I should get in on it.”

          Good luck.

          http://fd-defense.com/files/LWRCI_response_to_RFA.pdf
          http://fd-defense.com/files/Hall_v_LWRCI_Correction__of__Inv.pdf

          • Brian Shirley

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  • 5.56

    You guys realize what this means. Colt is going to use the LWRC IC design to submit into the next carbine competition contract. don’t be surprised come 2016 or so if the Russians switch to something new rest assured whether from politicians or the military we will push for a new platform ourselves and actually pick. Say what you want but Colt would of lost to FN Scar or HK416 in the past and been stuck as a subcontractor. By getting there hands on LWRC they just guaranteed themselves a new contract. Which of the three guns are better, I don’t know id say scar but I have heard great things on the LWRC end. It is just a little sad that the Scar is actually going to get the nail in the coffin as the m16 almost did when it came out. Bribing, underbidding etc. Will it be super bad to go the ambi short stroke piston route, probably not but remember it should be which is the best gun that fits the majority of situations and brings the most to the table, its what keeps innovation going.

    • 5.56

      Oh and Colts previous piston designs have been lack luster. If they weren’t our advanced units wouldn’t be running HK416’s itd be colt models. LWRC on the other hand has had great success with their piston. So Colt is going to probably keep LWRC functioning on the civilian side just the way it is and use it’s piston designs to win the next competition. After that who knows what happens to LWRC

  • Nick Hastings

    XXX

  • SHJS

    Any idea how this will affect pricing? I’ve shot the REPR and loved it. I can’t justify the price, but if this acquisition makes LWRC products somewhat cheaper I might revisit the notion of purchasing one.

  • TheSmellofNapalm

    So what’s to become of the Six8?

  • HLS30

    Great, there goes their customer service, innovation, and quality.

  • LittleLebowski
  • arlngkent

    If they move them south and keep union scum out of the place it may turn out okay.

  • MD_Chiver

    So where did you get your info for the purchase price or the potential move to FL or TX? Because none of that was mentioned in the link you referenced.

  • Ted

    Considering the recent news out (again) on M4 failures and lethality, could Colt be working to revamp to an M5(?) with a piston and 6.8? The work has already been done, lessons learned already applied, right?

  • Tim Pearce

    Hopefully, this means that Colt will offer a higher end AR-15 instead of LWRC-styled guns being made to Colt’s quality level. There’s nothing wrong with the standard quality that Colt is these days, but LWRC was above standard.

  • Twinkie

    I’m very glad I bought my LWRC IC SPR when I did. Colt is not one of my favorite companies and I’ve not seen very many mergers increase the quality and value of the products made my the company which was acquired. This is similar to Freedom Group buying market share and innovation with their acquisitions. One notable exception was Para, which has improved dramatically.

    If the price on the LWRC rifles drops it will most likely signal a corresponding drop in quality. I’ve been pleased with my rifle and as I said very glad I bought it when I did. If there is another carbine competition it might be that Colt can win it legitimately this time thanks to the technology they just bought instead of the bribes, kickbacks, and influence peddled to keep the M4 in soldiers’ hands. That might be the only benefit to arise from LWRC being eaten.

  • ramv36

    Ever heard of Zilkha & Co, the IRAQI RAN company that owns 85% of Colt?

    Is that who you want to be enriching?

    • JumpIf NotZero

      I love that hypocritical line between xenophobia and racism. It mixes so well with misleading and hyperbole.

      • Beju

        OH NOES! Run by a second gen Iraqi whose family has been here since the 50s!

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

      ramv you’re very close to the line with this comment. No racism remember? Just because they are Iraqi means nothing.

  • 5.56

    Guess whos goin to win the carbine competition next time with a mix of good design(lwrc) and underbidding! Whether its the best design is up for debate but you can guess why colt bought lwrc

    • Michael Cee

      This ^^^
      Colt will use the short stroke gas piston design and come up with an alternative to the M4. After which we may never see a mil-spec DI weapon again.

      • Suburban

        Could this finally lead to a standardized AR piston system?

  • An Interested Person

    Hopefully increased production capability will lead to lower consumer costs. Either that or Colt will increase profit margins. Hopefully the former. I have wanted a REPR for quite some time, its just too pricey.

  • Joey Szabo

    I can’t decide if I think this is a good or bad thing for fans of LWRC.

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

      You’ll drive yourself nuts trying to figure that out! Like I said yesterday only time and court rulings will tell the tale.

    • Maxx Traxx

      I think it is very good for those cashing out for a profit. Pretty good for Colt as they are buying a higher quality company. Now if the LWRC product does not come down to the quality and lack of quality control of Colt they will be fine. If it is wrapped up into the Colt culture even LWRC quality will come down but Colt’s may improve. Time will only tell the answers. The new Six8 may be dust with the Saudi contract fulfilled unless another contract is found quickly and with the Colt name it might have a better chance.

      • Joey Szabo

        That Six8 spread in Recoil was interesting. And I must say it was beautiful in white. I am curious to see how it all shakes down. Until then I’ll keep saving for my Mega.

  • otto skorzeny

    Colt sucks and so do ARs- the Barbie Doll of rifles

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

      And how do you really feel— There are a good number of folks in the previous decade of war that might disagree if they could.

    • lbeacham

      G.I. Joe doll, maybe.

  • Joseph0509

    I don’t understand the hate towards Colt. I can see people being disappointed that one of the “little guys” was ate up by the “big guys,” but Colt is not a big company. Colt might be a big name historically, but as far as manufacturing capacity, number of employees, etc., Colt is a small company. Even if you combine the defense and civilian sides together, Colt is a shadow of it’s former self. With the acquisition of LWRC, perhaps Colt will finally expand their product offerings outside of the 56 year old AR-15, 103 year old 1911, and the 141 year old Single Action Army. I suppose to be fair, Colt introduced the Mustang 31 years ago, but they don’t sell many of those.

    Colt has established a profitable niche in the AR-15, 1911, and Single Action Army. While profitable, Colt cannot grow as a company selling 56+ year old designs. The acquisition of LWRC will give Colt an opportunity to grow. It is a smart business move. I am glad to see Colt taking an interest in their long term profitability rather than rest on their laurels.

  • Andrew

    “F&D Defense are suing LWRC for intellectual property violation, claiming core LWRC technology belongs to them. They are claiming damages of $12.5 damages.”

    12.5 damages, huh? That’s a lot of damages. Wonder where they’ll spend all those damages? Maybe at the Damage Store.

  • John

    Colt ARs are most definitely Tier 1. They are not the prettiest, but they are certainly the best of the DI ARs. Now they have one of the best pistons in LWRC (LMT, HK and POF being the other premium AR pistons). I think LMT would have been a good purchase too, but I guess they weren’t for sale.

    • rkwjunior

      Everyone is for sale, it depends on what Colt was looking for in the piston platform. Not saying LMT isn’t quality, if i was to buy another piston platform it would be LMT. But Colt see’s something it likes in LWRC.

  • 101nomad

    Good to know they are moving to Texas/Fla.

  • vk25

    “damages of $12.5 damages” you mean million right

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

      yes

  • st4

    What is up with the epidemic, product bashing drive by comments that always happen on TFB whenever there is a brand name related article? Criticisms without substantial evidence backing them are useful to no one.

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

      Many people have strong opinions about certain brands or types of guns. I agree that criticism without a reasonable amount of experience or ownership means very little.

  • Lee

    Better Colt then Freedom Group.

  • bob

    Has anyone noticed Colt is still located in the Most Anti Gun, Super Anti A.R.state in the country?They are paying the State of Connecticut millions of dollars in tax money which the state then turns around and uses to take away citizens gun rights.Am I the only one who sees something wrong here ?

  • Soulever lift

    One thing I do hope for is that the company leaves maryland like it states in the article. I wish every company would leave maryland

  • http://www.thegunzone.com/556dw.html Daniel E. Watters

    Judging from their annual SEC filing dated March 20th, I have a hard time believing that Colt can afford the purchase given their existing debts.

  • Anonymous

    And your source failed. You obviously don’t know proper reporting.
    Better hope no Colt shareholders were damaged due to your incompetent reporting.

  • Jceli

    Should this be a good time to buy a lwrc rifle? I was planning on it but idk if I should wait.

  • Joe DiAntonio

    There go,s another good product (LWRC) if Colt bought them out. Reason: I have one of Colt,s AR15 (LE6920MP) & twice I had to send it back to colt for repairs. First, was loose & wobbly butt stock. Second, was Charging handle wearing a deep groove into top part of lower receiver. When I got my rifle (LE6920MP) back from Colt ( a month & a half later) it still was in the same state of need for repair as when I shipped it back to them. All I got to say: Colt Mille-Specs everything, HaHa & you can take that to the bank. My suggestion, Buy a S&W MP 5.56mm, A jewel of a rifle.

  • Maxx Traxx

    This never happened and was a false report from the beginning.