Kel-Tec PMR-30 pistol

kel_tec_pmr_30_2-tfb-tm

Kel-Tech have developed a new pistol which chambers the .22 Magnum (WMR) rimfire cartridge. The small size of the .22 WMR has allowed Kel-Tec to squeeze 30 rounds into the double-stacked magazine (a new original design), yet maintain a comfortable grip size.

The PMR-30 has a unique hybrid blow back / locked breech recoil system. In order to accommodate a wide range of ammunition, the pistol automatically adjusts between locked breach and blowback based on internal pressure. I look forward to seeing how this system works.

One problem with the .22 Magnum is that because it was designed as a rifle cartridge, the powder load is slow burning. This maintains high pressure in the barrel for a longer period of time. This high pressure can prevent extraction during recoil because the gas pushes out against the brass and presses it into the chamber wall. Shooting Log report that the PMR-30 has a fluted chamber to prevent this type of extraction problem. The gas enters the flutes and counterbalances the pressure against the case wall and also acts as a lubricant.1

The PM-30′s frame is aluminum. The slide and barrel are steel. Interestingly, the barrel is fluted.

Regarding the .22 Magnum performance compared to the FN 5.7x28mm round, read this article.

Specifications
Caliber .22 Magnum (.22WMR)
Barrel length 4.3″
Slide and Barrel 4140 Steel
Frame 7075 Aluminum
Magazine capacity 30 rounds
Trigger pull 3.5 to 5 lbs
Weight (no mag) 13.6 oz.
Length 7.9″
Height 5.8″
Grip Width 1.1″
Muzzle Velocity (40 gr) 1230 fps
Expected Availability Quarter 2, 2010
MSRP (Price) $415

Oleg Volk has taken some photos of the pistol…

30 Rounds is a lot of ammo!!!!

UPDATE: Bill pointed out that the Grendel P30, which was manufactured in the early 90s, was designed by George Kellgren, the founder and chief designer at Kel-Tec. I suppose the PMR-30 is an improved P-30.


  1. I stand open to correction on this point. 

Related

Steve Johnson

Founder and Dictator-In-Chief of TFB. A passionate gun owner, a shooting enthusiast and totally tacti-uncool. Favorite first date location: any gun range. Steve can be contacted here.


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  • Bill Lester

    Steve,

    This isn’t a first. George Kellgren, founder and chief designer of Kel-Tec, had the P-30 under his first company’s name, Grendel. It was also a 30 round .22 WMR.

    http://jtjersey.com/Grendel/GrendelP30.jpg

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

      Bill, thanks. have updated the blog. I knew about the P30, but not about the connection with Kel-Tec.

  • Jesse

    Why not 22lr? I’d buy a 22LR pistol that held 30 rounds and looks like this but 22mag is expensive enough that I find myself asking the question why now just shoot 9mm.

  • War Wolf

    As jazzed as I am about this offering from Kel-Tec I think I would be even more jazzed if it was offered in .22LR instead. The simple economics of .22 WMR make it just as expensive (if not more expensive) than shooting 9mm. That said, I will probably buy one anyway when it launches because it looks cool and any flavor of .22 is my absolute all time favorite caliber.

  • CORNELIUS

    Where are the fasion police when you need them?

  • AB

    30 rounds, most 22 mags come in 50 round boxes, so you’d have to buy 3 boxes to have 5 reloads with nothing left over. heh

  • subby

    I wouldn’t be surprised if a .22lr is coming out later. Why not? They bullets are almost the exact same size. I also read this in wikipedia.
    ” A .22 WMR round will not fit into the chamber of a .22 LR firearm but is possible to chamber and fire .22 LR rounds in a .22 WMR firearm”

    So maybe their dual compatible?

    Now saying that THIS IS GREAT! 30 rounds! WOW, Kel tec is always coming up with some crazy new and useful thing. I guess those oldies with arthritis have just found their new pistol.

  • Carl

    I agree with Jesse that a .22lr version would probably have a much bigger market than the 22wmr.

    I suspect the 22lr is more difficult to double stack in greater numbers though…

    The screwed together frame (which looks like plastic i my eyes…) looks kind of cheap to me. But I suppose these savings are reflected in the price.

  • subby

    Look what I found. Apparently the Grendel P-30 came in an 8 inch barrel version as well as forearm and buttstock! Awesome!

    http://www.gunandgame.com/gallery/files/1/8/4/0/2/r-31.jpg

    Also the magazines for this pistol were zytel.

  • Erwos

    Totally agreeing with Jesse here. I’d sell my Neos and buy one of those in a hot second if it were .22LR.

  • dogon1013

    Why not just shoot 9mm? because you can’t fit 30 rounds of 9mm in a flush fit magazine. Plus some people may have a problem with the high recoil of shooting 9mm.

    The PMR-30 does not have fluted chamber as mentioned in the blog post (that is never mentioned in the press release…just fluted barrel).
    The old Grendel P-30 does have a fluted chamber.

  • Annja

    wonder if there will be a way to run a can on this, muzzle extension by tornado anyone?

  • Matt Groom

    The PMR-30 does NOT have a fluted chamber.

    @ Jesse:

    Why not a .177 cal pellet gun? If You don’t care about muzzle energy, and cost is a primary concern, then a pellet gun is the way to go. Except most 9mm ammo costs twice as much as .22 WMR.

  • Geoff H

    Jesse, 22LR would be nice as well. I think the draw of this gun is a high-capacity magazine in something that is more powerful than 22LR. I agree that the ammo cost is going to be a big deterent to popularity. Some people might like shooting 22WMR over 9mm for the lower recoil as well.

  • Avtomat

    Will keltec ever be able to make a gun that looks nice? yes, I know that looks has nothing to do with functionality, but my goodness their guns look cheap-ass (I’ve carried a P-11 [first-gen], P32, and PF9 so I ain’t bashing the quality)

  • Bill Lester

    What’s wrong with having purely a fun gun with more OOMPH! than a .22LR? I had the opportunity to shoot the old AMT .22 Mag years ago and it was a blast with 1/3 the capacity of the new K-T.* Twenty-two magnum revolvers are also a lot of fun but I hated the slow loading/unloading of my old Ruger Single-Six so chambered. Accuracy will probably be improved in a dedicated WMR barrel. (The Rugers are optimized for the slightly smaller .22LR’s bullet diameter.) Water-filled milk jugs are in great peril at 100 yards with this cartridge.

    The PMR-30 can also serve more “useful” purposes. Since it will weigh significantly less fully loaded than an empty Ruger Single-Six Convertible**, this new K-T would be a handy trail or fishing companion for popping tin cans, snapping turtles, etc. The extra power of the Magnum would be comforting if you came across a rabid raccoon. Farmers and ranchers will appreciate the ballistics and capacity as they come across coyotes, prairie dogs, or other annoying pests. If it proves to be reliable, this could also be a good addition to someone’s GHB. FMJ’s don’t destroy much meat on a squirrel, JHP’s can do surprisingly well in ballistic gelatin for anti-personnel use. And you can carry a lot of ammo for little weight.

    If this pistol has a street price in the $325-350 range, I’ll probably buy one.

    *That is when the AMT wasn’t jamming.

    **I just weighed five rounds of Winchester 40-gr. JHP’s. The average was 66.8 grains. 66.8 x 30 = 2004 grains or ~1/3 lb. for ammo. The PMR-30 weighs about 14 oz. with an empty magazine. The lightest Single-Six Magnum weighs 32 oz. empty.

  • Jesse

    I guess I shouldn’t have said there’s no reason for 22mag. If you are hunting small game 30 rounds of 22mag is amazing and if for some reason you are unable to handle anything stronger having 30 rounds of 22mag would be better than the 6 you’d get in a revolver. However the self defense applications are still limited to a very niche market which leaves me thinking the primary application for this gun is a trail gun. I don’t really need a trail gun.

    All that being said if this is priced cheap enough there is a part of me that might get one for the kitche factor but it’s a low priority below a few other guns I’d rather get. However if they made it on 22LR it’d be on the top of my list so I could fill those mags over and over at a cost of $15 for 550 rounds.

  • Anon

    I don’t know why everyone is complaining about the looks, I think it’s one of the best looking rimfire pistols to date! Kind of like a Five-seven mixed with an H&K Mk. 23. I think its sleek and trendy looks will sell well to those on a budget in the modern ‘tactical’ market. Let’s just hope it feeds well.

  • Jim

    I gotta be honest, I thought this was a Five Seven mock up made out of Legos.

  • Jules

    I wonder if this means we’ll also see a new version of the Grendel R31 carbine? In any event, I’ve been intrigued by these guns for some time as I’m unaware of another .22WMR design -pistol or rifle- that offers anything like the magazine capacity of the Grendel P30/R31, or the new Kel-Tec PMR-30. Of course there’ll always be those who wonder why anyone would shoot a hi-cap gun in this chambering, but personal experience suggests it’s always possible to find a happy niche for anything legal!

  • Bill Lester

    Jim should get some kind of award for Post of the Week! Very funny! :)

  • http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/blog daniel

    Actually, that was speculation on the fluted chamber based off of the Grendel.

    We have since found out that the PMR-30 uses a unique hybrid locking/blowback system to handle the problems brought by the high pressure of the .22WMR

  • http://www.predatorwild.com Heath

    That’s actually pretty interesting little piece. I’d consider one to carry as a dispatch weapon for when I am out predator hunting. It like the idea of not running out of rounds quickly.

  • ambi

    Why?
    Why not continue the trend of pocket guns? Why not build a 22 mag/22lr the same size as a p-11 or p3at while attempting to maximize magazine capacity in this way?

    Everyone on here is right. If it looks like a target 22, and its built like a target 22, and if it has this excellent capacity and long barrel then it should ideally be built in 22 long rifle or not at all. Why? Because I assume most can’t afford to shoot 22 magnum all day at the range like we do the affordable 22LR cartridge. Aside from that, I think that the person who said that this would make a great trail gun had it right. If this were small enough to carry I would be all over it like a dog in heat.

    This is just me, but if i were building a gun with this excellent capacity it would be for concealed carry. It would be the size of the P-11 or smaller. It would come with two barrels of different lengths. Maybe even different calibers. One barrel for compact carry and the other for target practice. Most pocket 22s out there have a very small capacity. I think this technology should be brought to the pocket realm.

  • Liberty4Ever

    I think I’d like the P-30 more if it was a .22 LR instead of a .22 WMR, partly for the ammo cost (about 75% savings), and partly for the reduced noise and muzzle blast. The .22 Winchester Magnum RIFLE ammo is made for rifles. The slower powder is largely wasted in a pistol, unless people want the hassle and expense of pulling bullets and developing loads optimized for a pistol. There is plenty of pistol .22 LR ammo already. Still, I think a .22 WMR pistol with 30 rounds is fairly awesome, even though I think the performance wouldn’t be all that much better than .22 LR, as demonstrated by the NAA Mini-Master with a 4″ barrel.

    .22 LR 40 gr 900-930 fps:
    http://www.naaminis.com/mmlrvel.html

    .22 WMR 40 gr 1050-1100 fps
    http://www.naaminis.com/mmmagvel.html

    It’s more difficult to design a .22LR double stack magazine, but I think Kel-Tec is going to work on it.

    I was a bit disappointed by the errors in the original post, which claimed it was the first 30 round .22 WMR pistol when George Kellgren had already done it in the P-30 many years ago, and then claiming the PMR-30 had a fluted chamber when it was the P-30 that had the fluted chamber. It looks like the autor would have either heard of the P-30, or not.

  • http://epicmaster.wordpress.com Roper1911

    George Kellgren Is the founder of KelTec, he also Partnered in Intratec, (Formerly Intradynamic USA.) and Grendel, The PMR-30 is just a P-30 with an aluminum frame.

  • Matt Groom

    Yes, the PMR-30 is just like the P-30, except for the fact that it’s completely different in every single way except the caliber and the magazine capacity.

  • http://www.predatorwild.com Heath

    I know it isn’t supposed to be released until the 2nd quarter of 2010, but when it becomes available I’d sure appreciate a heads up from anyone who sees it on the market. I want to get one of these to carry as a dispatch pistol when I am predator hunting.

  • Steve Myler

    WOW!!!! Is this still the good ole US of A???? first of all 9mm is double yhe price of 22MAG. This caliber is very effective spitting out at around 2,000ft/sec muzzle. The rail is most useful and if I can carry 30 hand selected rounds of my favorite 22MAG, this is my…..oh yeah, and my wife’s gun too. I have around 14,000 rounds of 22LR ammo in stock. I am buying 22MAG cheaper by the day…..good stuff going for about $9.00/50 I am a dealer but my customers already want this as I will sell my first few and then keep ours. Great weapon………mix it with a S&W500 if you are up North and don’t need to waste ammo and game!

  • Stewart P

    I personally cannot wait for the PMR03 to arrive. In the first few months many will be optimizing fast burn relaods for this pistol and in a very short time this pistol will be a match contender for FN57 pistols. I own a 57 and am completely satisfied with it. It to has a 30 rd mag capacity(upgraded by ProMag) ofcourse. It is very laser like accuracy to the point of predicable bordom. I would expect this PMR30 to become just as good after a few months of tweaking with bullet weight and powder load. Unfortunately, the unique multi function bolt/ breach design may hinder the potential optimized performance. I will keep my fingers crossed in hopes of a tweaked up pistolafied .22WMR(P) that comes very close to the 5.7x28mm velocity and FtLbs delivered.

  • Stewart P

    Oh and one more thing, Hey Kel-Tec if your reading this, make regular dove-tail rails for the sights with sight options. I personally would like some Trijicon sights for mine.

  • http://gunandgame.com Big Shrek

    Funny, someone tried to link one of my old gallery pics :)

    Yep, the P-30/P-31 are completely different, more of a Buck Rodgers look :D

    I’m WAITING with a big grin for these to come out…I actually sent Keltec an email about a .22WMR possibility last year but they never responded…now I know why ;)

    Definitely going to be first in line to get one, and then test it side-by-side with my P-30 & P-31′s :D

    If KelTec does as well on the PMR-30 as Grendel made theirs…I’ll be their biggest cheerleader EVER on a TON of gun boards :D

  • http://N/A D’Arcy D.

    Keltec has put excellent value for money weapons in many American hands, and I thank them. The first Keltec I held Bit my finger open because I have large hands and I almost wrote them off…. Then I saw a guy shooting a PLR – 16, Shot one, Got one, never looked back. Quality and function are excellent! Thank you KelTec. I had a automag in 22 wmr and loved it, but it was a “stove piper”. I have been looking for a good 22wmr Auto pistol since and have already called my dealer to see when I can get one of these.
    People need to actually SHOOT a 22wmr with some of the modern loads before comparing it to a 22LR. The barrel on the PMR-30 is minimal length to start getting the potential of the WMR round. Like a previous poster said, once the manufacturers start tweaking powder burn rates for the pistol length barrel and people the shooting public find out how great a deal this is…. You’ll be standing in line. Order now.

  • Windy Wilson

    And the California version will be available —
    Sorry, that’s politics.
    maybe when I visit Las Vegas I’ll get a chance to try one out at a range.
    @#$%^&*! California politicians.

  • Heath

    So has anyone heard when this pistol will actually become available?

  • Stewart P

    Just decided that this will be my new SHTF gun for my wife along side my FN57 in my everything goes to hell pack. SHould be very reliable and very easy to get ammo for. Hell, most all .22WMR is cheap by relative standards these days, and still no shortage. Unlike .45, .38, 9mm, 5.7×28 and .223,.. etc… **(ammoengine.com)**. I’ll be selling my 1964 Baretta Model 75 6″ target 22LR with 2 mags to get this new mini whopper. It’s in 99% Excellent condition. ([email protected]) The PMR should be tons of excellent shooting fun and it just needs to have tweaked Pistolized fast powder loads for this thing with more of a pointed lead nose half jacket and steel core. And if your one of those folks that thinks a .22 is a mostly a joke to take the kids shooting with, do think of the fact that like my tiney FN57 pistol, it will penetrate 48 layers of kevlar and I have 31 rounds whith which to do it, vs. a .45 with 8 or 10 rds which are only likely to crack a rib at best. I do love my .45 and is is accurate to the point of boredom (the only reason why I keep it) but it is old tech, and limited to the amount of service it can provide me. It is far to heavy to carry, and most certainly would obliterate small to medium game. Again the FN57 is very similar in size to the 1911 but far lighter even loaded. Now for comparison, the PMR is even yet Smaller and lighter but with some punch. A perfect combination. A must have for a mulitiude of purposes.

  • Stewart P

    Just found this posted by Caleb.
    “One of the best rounds for .22 magnum from a pistol is the CCI TNT 30 grain load. It uses a faster burning powder and generally acts like a “quality” pistol bullet when fired from a pistol.”

  • JamesPMullin

    Looks like i’ll have to put off buying a Glock Gen4.A 30 shot 22 mag has got to come first.I’ll team it up with my PLR16 loaded with M855s.For the 22 mag i’ll try Hornady 30gr VMAX.Now all they have to do is make the economical version for 22lr.Got to find one of these pistols fast! Jim

  • http://www.predatorwild.com Heath

    Their PMR-30 handout lists it as being available in the 2nd quarter of this year.

    http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/images/PMR30-handout-v3-31.pdf

  • Greezer

    This is an excellent self defense handgun for people who are recoil sensitive and handicapped folks. Obviously its not the ideal self defense caliber but some people simply cannot handle the recoil of larger calibers and the 22 Magnum ammo isnt that expensive. As a police officer I would love to have a subcompact in 22 magnum for a get off of me type gun and Personally I think the 22 mag is better than the 25 and 32 for self defense. Yes I understand the cost of 22 LR ammo is cheaper but there is more to be looked at with this gun.

  • Stewart P

    Old Geezer is right. Honestly, 30 rounds of 22mag versus 7-8 from a compact carry 9mm, hmmm, lemme think, I wouldent want to be on the wrond end of those. See the great equalizer here is capacity, capacity, capacity, and this gun has even more than what is normally considered as high capacity, by about 33%.

    (pulled from an earlier post)
    One of the best rounds for .22 magnum in a pistol is the CCI TNT 30 grain load. It uses a faster burning powder and generally acts like a “quality” pistol bullet when fired from a pistol.
    Havent tried it yet as we dont even have the gun out yet, but the combination already sounds like a good start.

  • Carl

    I’d submit that a “recoil sensitive” person is just someone who doesn’t shoot and train enough.
    Disability is a fair point though.

  • Stewart P

    Even a recoil (girly man) could shoot a FN57, it kicks no more than a 22WMR

  • Stewart P

    Oops, sorry Greezer, I mis typed you name and missed the “r” in there.

  • Carl

    Honestly, 30 rounds of 22mag versus 7-8 from a compact carry 9mm,
    A 7-8 shot 9mm is much smaller than this.

  • Stewart P

    this will siut its purpose just fine. It is not a carry weapon, nor is it a home protection gun. It is a darn cool plinker, and for that I’m sure it will do very well. Sitin on your porch, and blowin away pop cans at 50-100 yards, while chattin with your buds is cool! It would also make a great camping gun to go shoot the same way. Right now I use a single 6 shooter in Wmr. This is for when shootin is relaxing and you take your time and enjoy life’s finer bits.

  • SilentH

    Don’t look now but I smell assault pistol.
    22 Magnum is the perfect choice for a 30 round hell-raiser.
    I own a model 41 in 22LR and it’s quite tame.
    For those watching their dollars, get a BB gun.
    I’m looking this one over, but I haven’t seen any performance and reliability reviews. Even the Model 41 doesn’t like dirt and can hang once in a great while, but you can’t spew more than 10 with it anyway.

  • Hedonistic

    Kel-tec announced it with release date so it will be like the RFB if we start a pool I’ll take Feb-u-tober 30th.
    I hate Kel-tec after my experience with them but I’d jump on this in .22lr if its average in the reliability department.

  • Stewart P

    This is definately NOT an assult pistol. Perhaps there is some confusion here with the FN57 pistol. THis in nothing close to that in any way save for the round capacity, but nothing more. NOt even close.

  • Liberty4Ever

    I don’t use “assault” to describe an object. In that context, it’s meaningless.

    However, I’m not so sure that a comparison between the FiveseveN pistol and the PMR-30 isn’t somewhat warranted. They’re different, but not completely different ball games, and certainly not completely different games. I don’t dislike the FiveseveN pistol at all, but I think it’s suffering from excessive marketing hype.

    When in doubt, do some gelatin testing.

    http://olegvolk.net/gallery/d/35616-1/22WMR_dynapoint_Maximag_9955.jpg

    http://olegvolk.net/gallery/d/35619-1/FN57_40gr_9963.jpg

    Those look fairly comparable to me.

    You admitted the two were similar in round capacity, but I don’t think that’s right. The Kel-Tec PMR-30 has a 30 round magazine, which is 50% more rounds than the FiveseveN (assuming that neither uses extended magazines).

    However, the FiveseveN does compensate for the lower capacity by costing an additional 200% more than the PMR-30!

    StewartP wrote:
    This is definately NOT an assult pistol. Perhaps there is some confusion here with the FN57 pistol. THis in nothing close to that in any way save for the round capacity, but nothing more. NOt even close.

  • SilentH

    It is true this is no FN57, thank goodness, or the price would be three times as high and the diet even more expensive.
    As to the use of the word assault, I think any weapon that can rain this much lead in a short time or do as much damage or keep em pinned down as long has assault capabilities, regardless of whether body armor is effective or not. Hope that clears up the context thing.
    The only confusion here would be that caused by the scramble on the receiving end to find better cover.
    Not even close? A head shot by an FN vs a PMR, hmmm, neither would be desireable.
    As for reliability, it better be AA1 or they can keep it.

  • Stewart P

    Okay guys I can tell you two don’t even owns a FN75. I do and it only cost $800 new and it has full grip 30rd (not 20) mags from promag. And it’s worth every penny. I dont believe all the hype conversly, it seems you all do. It is the most accurate long distance shooting pistol I have ever owned. And I own a lot of guns period, and I am a very proficient shooter in general. ( I dont miss) I build rifles and pistols that cost $1000 each and shoot them as well. Now when some one tells me they think a 22wmr is very similar to a 5.7×28 over all, I have to ask if they have lost their marbles? So…”Have you lost your marbles man?” I have a 22wmr pistol and cant even come close to the groups I make at 55yards (NOT FEET) with my 57. Not even close to even comapre. See I actually shoot what I talk about so I know. I dont speculate on here. What you are trying to show me up there are two different tests. One FN57 out of a pistol, and the other 22WMR out of a rifle. Buddy you cannot add apples and oranges and get strawberries. It aint gonna happen. The PMR is a plinker all day and nothing more. If you brought that to a gun fight, I’d be statistically safe at 55yards with a heavy leather duster on, thile my 57 would cut you up in to swiss cheese even if you had 48 layers of kevlar vest to protect you. There is no comparison period. Everything I stated is based on facts and not misguided suppositions of what I guess something to be.

  • Stewart P

    And one last point about your bogus tests visa vie Oglevolk listed above. There is no such round as a Balistic tip JHP. The name itself implies an oxymoron of non existance, yet upon further review, I find that the 5.7×28 was not contained either (unfortunately) because it was actually designed not to pass the target cavity so as to inflict the most damage whilst bouncing off every bone in your upper torso. PMR is a plinker and my biker jacket would be sufficient to stop it dead. End of argument. And to prove it, when the PMR comes out I will buy one and take it to the gun range along with my jacket, and desperately try to shoot holes in it at 55yards. Then I will gladly come back here and report the facts as usual.

  • Carl

    How well a pistol works at 55 yards seems like a moot point since it’s a defensive last-ditch weapon.

    I’ll be looking forward to your test shooting yourself with a .22WMR wearing your magic biker jacket, Stewart!

  • Stewart P

    Yah funny. But no! A good defensive wheapon is one that is as effective from 55yards down to zero. That is the NATO standard not my own. I would tend to trust elite forces input in regards to weapon design and function. The PMR30 has none. As for test firing on my self that’s just bad eyesight on the previous posters part. I am willing to prove what a weak round the WMR will be, when fired from a pistol. To prove it I will “try desperately to poke holes in my biker jacket at 55 yards and then will do it with ease using my 57. My point is the 22WMR falls out of the air at that distance and all I’ll be shooting holes in, is the dirt with a light thud. If any one here is hoping for FN57 like performance they will be very dissapointed indeed. the PMR30 is only a plinker with a big manly ammo capacity foir boys who can’t afford their real toys. Go home!

  • Matt Groom

    I take it that Stewart P really, REALLY likes his FN Five Seven. More power to ya, but I’ve got a question: If 55 yards is the standard range for a PDW, why is it in Yards, not meters? What is that 50.29 Meters?

    A 22 mag fired out of the PMR-30 would have as much muzzle energy as a .22LR fired out of a rifle. So, if you feel perfectly safe standing, say 56 yards away from someone who’s pouring a 30 round magazine out of his .22 rifle directly at you, because the bullets will “fall out of the air at that distance” then have at it, but I wouldn’t recommend it.

  • Liberty4Ever

    Stewart P: “What you are trying to show me up there are two different tests. One FN57 out of a pistol, and the other 22WMR out of a rifle.”

    Nope. The gelatin tests were done as the inevitable head-to-head comparison of the FN FiveseveN and the Kel-Tec PMR-30. It was done by BrassFetcher who has a lot of credibility in the field of terminal ballistics testing, and it was photographed and posted online by Oleg Volk, whose firearms credentials are unimpeachable.

    I’m sorry you don’t like the results, but you should deal with the reality.

    I think the PMR-30 has better terminal ballistic performance with heavier bullets, as is the case with .22 LR out of a pistol. Someone should make a long 60-80 gr .22 WMR for pistol use. I may make that a reloading project. The short barrel will not allow for much velocity, so the energy will come from the mass. The longer bullet should penetrate very well for 2-3 inches and then tumble very well, again, based on gelatin tests with .22 LR pistols. A heavy bullet .22 WMR should be a very effective little round.

    I wouldn’t spend $900 for the FiveseveN even though it is an interesting pistol, and I wouldn’t buy the expensive ammo either, but I would pay $300 for the Kel-Tec PMR-30 and I’d buy .22 WMR ammo. I suspect many other gun owners feel the same way, based on the initial PMR-30 buzz.

    There will be a .22 LR version if Kel-Tec can work out the 30 round magazine. The shorter cartridge makes it more difficult than the WMR magazine. I’d love to have a .22 LR version of the PMR-30 pistol with a 30 round capacity. I’d *really* love it if the .22 LR version had a significantly longer threaded barrel.

    There are as many Kel-Tec haters as there are fanboys for FN, Kimber, etc., but Kel-Tec is making some very innovative and interesting weapons, and I like that about them. I like the innovative FN weapons too, but I never get around to buying them because the others seem to have a more favorable fun/$ ratio.

  • SilentH

    With all due respect, I wouldn’t bring only a knife to a gunfight any more than any one of you would.
    The fact is, this looks like a capable piece of machinery. Yes it isn’t an EFN 57, nor is the FN a 50-BMG. If you shoot the PMR within it’s limits, it would be downright terrifying out to 50 to 75 feet. Rest assured that I would have 50 yards plus WELL covered when the need existed. Thats what the other hip/shoulder is for. Where is it written that one gun has to do it all?
    Right now I want this gun, I’m just not interested in an early serial number. I’m allergic to stove pipes. I want to see a tech eval before I buy. The last thing I need is another AR-7.

  • Stewart P

    Okay I say yards only because My brain doesnt wsork in meters. But it you like 50.59 meters then fine by me. I dont dislike the PMR at all, but caution anyone thinking this be a PDW. The balistics referred to above are two seperate tests. A non existant 5.7x28mm round fored froma pistol and a .22WMR of same weight fired from a rifle for which the .22WMR was specifically designed. Now, if I fire my 5.7×28 ammo from my AR57 with ’11 barrel my velocity jumps drastically, and consequently and obviously far outperforms the .22WMR in accuracy and trajectory evey time. These are only pure facts. And so to support these facts go back to the top of this blog and find the five links one of which is specifically related to the performance of 5.7×28 vs. .22WMR. I can sum it up very easily. To come close one must completely redesign the .22WMR, with a boat tail bullet, and use very fast burning powder. Neither of which is currently being done. If those two conditions were met then the PMR30 could truly be worthwhile. But for now the gun is useless as there is no ammo correctly suited to be fired out of this gun. The ammo and gun are a machine that have to work in unison. I dont see how this is suppoded to work on this gun with the wrong ammo to start off with.

  • Stewart P

    It’s also impossable to get rifle like velocity from a.22WMR out of a pistol. Because the powder never fully combusted and never built up the correct back pressure. Seriously, when I say the bullet falls out of the air I mean it. I have some WMR sitting around and I’ll take my revolver and my 57 and my biker jacket. I will shoot 6 rounds each this weekend. I will come back and report exactly what I find. I will test at 50.29 meters or 55 yards as thats how my gunrange is measured off. based on my past experience I will bet good money I wount even be able to put a single hole in my jacket using the .22WMR. The 57 will do a fist sized group dead center in the back of the jacket. Now, if I by chance am able to get 5-6 rounds of 22 on the jacket, I’m also betting that the jacket will actually deflect most of the energy to below a leathal level or not penetrate at all. Thats because the WMR never had time to get a full burn of it’s slow burning powder out of a short barrel. Whereas the 57 utilizes fast burn powder and a different bullet. I’ll bring some CCI minimags just for fun to show that the 22LR has more poop than a WMR out of a pistol. The mini mags may certainly penetrate the heavy leather jacket fairly effectively. IN order to be fair about all this, I really should get my hands on PMR30 and just fire both guns together.

    Supposedly KelTec compensated for the slower burning powder to allow for fully realized WMR potential. IN which case it could be the new standard in crazy cool s..t to own as a guy! And most likely very soon banned in various states as the new “cheap copkiller” gun. Balistically speaking, 22WMR is naturally a vest penetrator like the 57 is, but this new PMR might make gunhaters really wake up to whats been under their noses all along. I’m gonna get mine quick like in the first few weeks out, because they will be banned for sure, then they’ll start going after all the rest because no gun is safe and all they do is kill people. Just you watch! Obama and Billary are already drafting a United Nations unilateral gun ban effectively gutting our 2nd amendment rights and forcing all Americans to relinquish our pistols and semi-auto rifles. “Because they are not made for hunting by the nature of their manually operated, automatic design.” WTF?

    First right wing whacko comes and tries it on me will get a new understanding of “Castle Law.” BTW look it up in your state as almost all states allow the invocation of “Castle Law” to protect ones residence and family. It basically means you are justified to kill and not back down or retreat to the interior of you residence if you or your families lives are threatened. Check your local laws and regulations for specifics in regard to this. I do know in my state if my mortal life is threatened on my property, I can shoot whomever the guilty party is, graveyard dead. He doesnt have to be in my front door in my house to die. I will get in serious trouble at first until my counsel brings up the long forgotten about, The Law of the Castle. or “Castle Law”. Then I’ll be let off free as a bird. No jurry or judge can change laws for single cases. Thats supreme court and senate/congress stuff. However, just to be safe, I’ll make sure the guilty party really does deserve to die first. Like some misguided law or military person (just following orders) comming to my door with gun drawn asking for my guns. Aint gonna happen. Google that guy in Louisana who refused to give up his guns to law enforcementeven when they had their guns drawn on him. He said if he went to get his guns for them they would be loaded and pointed right at them. They left, while he finally complied with their request.

  • Stewart P

    Mybe after all this the PMR30 is small enough to stick in my pants and sneak it on board the Mother ship just in case. Because I know the Dems are banning my concealed carry permit also in 2012.

  • theamazingrando

    I have no idea how various 22WMR loads compare to the 5.7 in real life. I’ve shot a lot of 22mag rounds through my Single Six, though; and I wouldn’t ruin my leather jacket trying to make a silly point. The Kel-Tec should produce somewhat lower velocities than my Ruger, of course, but the 22WMR is still quite potent at 50 yards.

  • God

    Hey guys,

    I am a chemical engineer, I like the old school heavy stainless steel guns but I think I’m being like a few other old folks on this forum. Its a gun with low recoil, NO Reason for it to be heavy. I guess it’s out with the old and in with the new. This polymer material is great…I’m going to put one in the collection. I’ll kill my first chupacabra with it.

  • WMagBoy

    Hey Guys regarding the 5.7×28 vs 22mag I have shot both and
    they are veritably the same feel . As of now I was very lucky to get
    a PMR they are still a bit scarce, I did also trade in my 5.7 FN to
    fund my new kel tec and I think its a pretty good descion due to the
    fact I was able to shoot 50rds for $10 vs $25 I will say its still
    new, and I need to shoot it a lot more before any final conclusions
    But out of the 50 rds (win X) not one mishap.++++
    I will update you guys after a few boxes of rounds….

  • Keith Applegate

    What 5.7×25 ammo available to civilians in the US will penetrate 48 layers of kevlar?

    The .22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire cartridge was introduced in 1959 by Winchester and was originally designed as BOTH a pistol and revolver cartridge.

    The .22 WMR cartridge, in its original 45 grain Winchester loads (which are still available and long since duplicated by CCI and Remington), had MORE muzzle velocity from a 6″ barrel pistol than a high velocity 40 grain .22 Long Rifle cartridge did when fired from a 22″ rifle. So is Stuart trying to tell us that his magical biker jacket will defeat a .22 Long Rifle at 55 yards?

    Wait, didn’t he say he’d take some CCI Mini-Mags to the range and show they would probably penetrate his jacket? You can’t have it both ways.
    Unless you’re a politician.

    And where are the results of the penetration tests of the Magic Biker Jacket we were promised EIGHT MONTHS ago?

  • Boanerges

    Shot weapon yesterday, Can’t load either mag. to full capacity. Have to load mags. to 15rds before slide goes into battery. Sporatically fails to eject, feed, extract. Can’t keep it in a 4in. circle at 20 yds.

  • Nunyabiz

    I have a AMT automag II which shoots 22mag.
    It has a 6″ barrel and I have chronographed it at 1658FPS using Winchester Supreme JHP 34gr.
    The only thing “falling out of the air” if you were standing anywhere within 75 yards would be YOU not the bullet.
    That is 208 ftlbs of muzzle energy and it still has plenty left way past 50 yards.
    Any kind of leather jacket would be swiss cheese.
    You really do not want to be hit by any 22 magnum.

    Hell I got a .177 cal air rifle that I bet would poke holes in a leather jacket at 50 yards, it goes right through a 2X4 which I am sure is a bit harder to punch through than leather.

  • g senaglia

    this is a perfect gun for a woman to protect herself at home who is not so good with a high caliber a 22 magnum is very powerful and a 30 roung clip i would feel better for my wife when i step out she has what she needs u shoot anyone 10 times with a 22 magnum they are about finished with little recoil i saw it and cant wait to get one great idea

  • ankenytom

    Has anyone tried CCI Maxi-mag plus V loads in their KelTec PMR-30 pistols? Do they feed and cylce Ok? I would like more recent posts in December, 2010 time frame. Are these pistols still really difficult to obtain, even now, December, 2010? Any feedback would be helpful. Thanks.

  • http://www.predatorwild.com Heath

    I read, I believe it was on their FaceBook page, that Kel-Tec is finally up to their full production run of 500 per week. They also mentioned that there is a substantial back log. When I inquired at a local gun shop they said have been receiving some but they also have a long waiting list of people who will be getting them first.

  • Dan C

    If I remember correctly the .22 magnum has roughly the same KE at 100yds as the .22LR has at the muzzle. There are few species with skulls that can withstand a .22LR at point blank range. A human is certainly not one of them. The .22 mag allows this out to 100yds. I would like to see a rifle made with the same enthusiasm and specs. A pistol is too loud. I prefer .22LR for pistol.

  • Liberty4Ever

    DanC: “I would like to see a rifle made with the same enthusiasm and specs”

    Hey Dan,

    You do know about the RMR-30, right? It’s the same basic weapon, with a 16″ barrel, a telescoping butt stock, and lots of rail on the top and bottom of the forend. There are some pictures of the prototype on thefirearmsblog.com and KTOG.org. Kel-Tec should be showing it off at the 2011 SHOT Show in a few weeks.

    I think the PMR-30 and RMR-30 constitute a plot by Kel-Tec to eliminate all .22 WMR ammo. Hopefully, it’ll backfire and the demand in a semi-free market will result in $30 bulk packs of 500 rounds in a year or two.

    That RMR-30 is cooler than Christmas at the North Pole.

  • Jim

    Why no threaded barrel like the walther p22?

  • attilas

    I mistakenly put some 22lr in my 22mag ruger single six and fired a couple of rounds. it split the casing

  • R Ming
  • Liberty4Ever

    GunBroker.com has a steady stream of PMR-30 pistols. Kel-Tec has been cranking out 500 per week for a while, but the demand is still outstripping supply, and probably will for a few more weeks? The prices are still in the $450 range but should settle around $300 when the PMR-30 is no longer allocated.

    Some people get lucky and stumble upon a PMR-30 in a local gun shop for the usual markup (around $300), but those are rare. Most gun dealers get whatever the market will bear.

    For now, it’s a seller’s market, but that won’t last forever. Just a little more patience….

    I keep telling myself it’s too cold to enjoy shooting anyway. I’ll wait a couple of months to get one at a better price. Kel-Tec continues to refine the design. They recently added a metal plate to protect the polymer slide cover in the rare event that things go bad.

  • http://AT&Tsoftwear dominic cappuccilli

    sounds good, can’t wait to get one.

  • Michael

    Can I legally purchase and own the pistol with the 30-round magazine if I live in California?

    Thanks folks.

    Michael

  • LONZO

    I like the idea of a .22LR on steroids. .22 mag. in a 30 round clip is appealing to me. It may be as cheap to shoot 9mm, but if you want a firearm with good capacity with a lot less weight and recoil this would be the ticket. Any 9mm with very high capacity weighs much more because of the weight of the cartridges. I think I’m going to give it a try.

  • http://www.predatorwild.com Heath

    I’m still not seeing any of these on the shelves in the gun shops. I assume what they’re getting in is going out for those who got their names on waiting lists at the individual stores.

  • LONZO

    Yeah, I haven’t seen them either. I’ve got my favorite gun shop trying to locate one for me.

  • http://Yahoo Erik “BULL” A.

    This is a “poor mans 5.7″ friends. I got both and the PMR30 is nearly as lethal as my FN! All that at less than 1/2 the price to own and shoot.

  • Ticker Tape

    Hey Skippys
    I either need to know where your buying cheap 9MM or not know where your buying high price 22 Mag. Even so I didn’t think you can PUT a price on personal protection.
    This is one great personal protection weapon, check your ballistics.
    More personal protection situations occure within 8 to 15 feet than an other distance.
    I will sooner carry 30 round of 22 Mag than 15 round of 9MM for bulk,Confort, weight, recoil and CONTROLLED FIRING AND EFFICIENCY.
    If you’ve every been in protection fire fight you would know that more smaller rounds are better in a rapid fire situation than less larger rounds, that is short of A hand grenade.

    REMEMBER – YOU HAVE TO PAY TO STAY and PLAY!!
    Keep your eyes open and head down, Have a great Day ALL!!!

  • ankenytom

    I have a friend that just got his PMR-30. He took it to the range and was shooting at about 15 feet or at 10 inch bullseye targets. He had many bullets that hit the target pigionholed or whatever they call it. The bullets seem to be tumbling when they hit the paper targets. He was using factory Magum rimfire ammo from CCI, MAXI-MAG 40 GR., and Winchester Supreme hollowpoints 32 Grain. Accuracy was not great either at this range. It did not jam once though, just was wondering what might be causing the bullets to tumble and make distorted and enlarged holes in the paper target at close range. That was problem number one. Problem #2 seems that quality control took the day off, on however manfactures the 30 round magizines. I don’t know if that is Kel-Tek themselves or contracted or outsourced to someone esle to manuafacturer. This the problem. The 30 round extra mag that came with the gun in the box ONLY HELD 15 ROUNDS MAX! I surely wonder what may have happened there? The guns are very lightweight (15-16 oz.),and seem well made and have a decent trigger pull, I guess to be around 5-6 pound pull. I really like the sights that come with them, good sighting plain and alignment with contrasting colors, front to back.The underlug of the barrel has a picitinny rail for lasers or weapons light. Lastly, for the volume Kel-Tec claims to be pumping out of the factory, 500 a week, they are VERY SLOW getting to the dealers shelves. They seem to go for $350-400 out the door here in the Northwest. I have seen a couple at gun shows in my area for as high as $500.00, Retail, just bit way ABOVE the MSRP for this handgun! Supply and demand I guess. Any body have any ideas for the ammo tumble problems?

  • Ticker Tape

    Ankenytom,

    You may want to tell your friend to go back to the manual and reference the loading mag. section. If you don’t follow the instructions the mag will not load all 30 rounds. is not loaded as a normal mag

    Have a Good Day.
    Ticker Tape

  • Liberty4Ever

    There have been sporadic complaints of tumbling bullets lately on KTOG.org, the Kel-Tec Owner’s Group forum. Apparently, the PMR-30 has shallow rifling, or at least some of the recent production PMR-30 pistols might have had shallower than normal rifling. Try cleaning the bore thoroughly. If the rifling is clogged with fouling, you’re essentially shooting a smooth bore and you’ll get tumbling bullets. My Glock 20 is shooting tumbling bullets right now because I’ve shot a lot of cast lead in the polygonal rifling, which is a major no-no! If the barrels are defective, Kel-Tec will replace them. They have a great warranty and service. Stay tuned.

    As Ticker Tape said, make sure you do the load-and-tap method of magazine loading described in the manual. Otherwise, you’ll get rim lock trying to load 30 rounds of rimfire ammo in a double stack magazine. Hopefully, that’ll fix your magazine problem.

  • ankenytom

    Thank you Liberty4ever and Tickertape for that information. Only magizine of the two supplied has a problem. He used the method in the manual like you explained but, one holds 30 rounds, and the other mag he can only get 15 into using the very same method. Tried this several times. Maybe he doing it wrong somehow. The one mag works fine, and holds all 30 rounds. The sub-shallow rifling makes sense for the tumbling issue, but that goes back to quality control issue’s at the factory. What is the turn-around time on sending a PMR-30 in for service these days? ankenytom

  • Liberty4Ever

    PMR-30 repair is usually quoted as six weeks, but two weeks round trip is much more common.

  • Steve Sterling

    For all you Kel-tek and .22 mag basher’s….Get this.Don’t Buy One!!!

  • http://none carl wertel

    how the heck can i get one??? I have
    been trying since december 2010 through
    local dealer – this is april 2011. Is keltec
    keeping these pmr-30 for themselves??
    I lost their phone number- can anyone help?
    thank you

  • Liberty4Ever

    @carl wertel – Kel-Tec isn’t a big company. They’re making about 500 PMR-30 pistols a week. The back order continues, and is likely to continue for some time. 500 per week is a lot for Kel-Tec, but a drop in the bucket compared to the demand. Assume there are 80 million gun owners in the US and only .1% (a tenth of one percent) want a PMR-30. That’s 80,000 PMR-30 pistols. At 500 per week, that’s about three years. You can pay a lot more on GunBroker to move to the head of the line. Most people don’t want to do that. The best bet is to keep your eyes open. Allocated Kel-Tec pistols show up in the oddest places. Some little harware store in rural Pennsylvania will get one and not even know what they have, and will apply their usual markup. You may be in there buying a bologna sandwich, RC Cola and a big moon pie at the lunch counter and look over past the live bait and… is that a PMR-30?

  • fortressal

    Carl Wertel-I have been waiting on a PMR-30 also. I finally decided to go ahead and order one at thegunsource.com although they just got 16 of them and they are spoken for mine is on back order with them and will be sent to my nearest gunshop. The advantage is a good price , free shipping and you know its coming. Yes, you can also go to Gunbroker.com and get one faster for much more money. Last time I looked the PMR-30 was selling for $305 and some change at thegunsource.

  • Joan Lawson

    previous post by dogon: 1013on 24 Nov 2009 at 5:17 am link comment
    Why not just shoot 9mm? because you can’t fit 30 rounds of 9mm in a flush fit magazine. Plus some people may have a problem with the high recoil of shooting 9mm.

    High recoil of a 9mm????????????? HAHAHAHAHAHAWOOHOOHOOHEHEHEHEHAHAHAHAHAHAWOOHOOHOOHEHEHEHE
    HAHAHAHAHAHAWOOHOOHOOHEHEHEHE
    HAHAHAHAHAHAWOOHOOHOOHEHEHEHE
    HAHAHAHAHAHAWOOHOOHOOHEHEHEHE
    HAHAHAHAHAHAWOOHOOHOOHEHEHEHE

  • http://hotmail L. P. DAVIS

    GOOD LUCK TRYING TO BUY ONE. I’VE TRIED FOR SIX MOS.
    AND CAN’T EVEN GET ON A WAIT LIST. IF I HAD A PRODUCT
    THIS MUCH IN DEMAND I WOULD BE WORKING 24/7 OR SUB
    OUT THE WORK. IF SOMEONE COMES OUT W/ SOMETHING
    CLOSE TO THIS – I’M GOING WITH THEM ! DON’T THINK I’LL
    LIVE LONG ENOUGH TO GET A KEL-TEC.

  • david

    I’ve heard that FTE is quite common with this gun, what is your experience?

  • http://google L. P. DAVIS

    WHY DO YOU SEND ME E-MAILS ON THE PMR-30 WHEN IT
    WILL TAKE A YEAR & A HALF BEFORE I COULD GET ONE.
    IF I HAD A PRODUCT THAT POPULAR & UNABLE TO SUPPLY
    THE DEMAND I WOULD BE JOB SHOPPING IT OUT. THERE IS
    MONEY TOBE MADE EITHER WAY. LOOK AT THE TAURUS
    “PUBLICE DEFENDER”. WHEN IT FIRST CAME OUT YOU COULD
    NOT GET IT OR THE “JUDGE”. NOW S.& W. IS MAKING THE
    SAME THING AND CALLING IT THE “GOVENOR”.
    HOW LONG DO YOU THINK BEFORE SOMEONE IN THE GUN
    INDUSTRY COMES AFTER THE PMR-30 ?
    I CALLED EVERY GUN STORE IN INDY – MOST DID NOT EVEN
    WANT TO TALK TO ME ABOUT IT – EVEN PLACES WHERE I
    HAVE DONE A LOT OF BUSINESS. THE LAST PLACE I CALLED
    WAS “BRADIS” THEY SAID THEY HAD 18 PEOPLE ON THE WAITING LIST FOR A PMR-30 AND ONLY GOT ONE PER MONTH
    THEY WOULDN’T EVEN TAKE MY NAME SINCE THEY ARE OUT
    18 MONTHS. – SHAME ! IF SOMEONE DOES COPY IT – THATS IT FOR ME.

  • Greg

    All Kel Tecs seem to be hard to get your hands on. I recently entered a contest on http://slickguns.com/contest/latest-contest?a=5743&k=other to win a Sub 2000 9mm since I can’t find any around here. It’s a good contest but I am way behind. :(

  • Gary D. Snyder

    Man I lucked out apparently. My friend bought a PMR-30 and didn’t like it. So i bought the weapon,4 mags and 350 rds of assorted .22 MAG for 350.00. I’m still laughing.Best round,never a failure to eject, CCI Maxi-Mag. Feeding difficulty was solved with trip to my gunsmith and a new mag spring,Load that sucker with SJHP’s and see what it does to a gallon milk jug full of sand at 8 meters. Bring a change of skivvies cuz your gonna come. I’m looking for another one A.S.A.P.

  • Frank Wells

    where can i get things like holster, and cleaning kits, etc.

    • Bruce Layne

      Many Glock 17 holsters usually work very well for the PMR-30, particularly those that aren’t highly fitted and molded. Any pistol cleaning kit that works for a .22 L will work well for the PMR-30. I just use and Otis cable, a nylon brush with a .22 patch wrapped around it, and Bore Tech Eliminator cleaning solution.

  • Sonny

    I just purchaced a kel-tec pmr-30. I like everything about the gun but it wants to jam every couple shots. I’m using cci maxi-mag 22 wmr hp 40 gr. With a full clip it jamed about ten times. Is this a problem with them? so far i’m not impressed.

    • Bruce Layne

      Did you follow the magazine loading procedure in the manual? It’s a 30 round .22 WMR. You can’t simply push rounds down into the magazine and expect them to feed flawlessly. There is a very specific loading procedure. Mine doesn’t jam.

      If you are loading the magazines properly and it’s still jamming, you might try another magazine. You might also see if it feeds properly after a break-in period, although mine fed reliably from the start. And of course, you might try a couple of other types of ammo, although mine (and apparently most of them) like the CCI ammo that you’re using.

      If all else fails, there is the Kel-Tec warranty. They’ll fix it for you.

      Rest assured, the PMR-30 design is capable of reliable operation. Mine runs like a Swiss watch.

  • Robert Childress

    Hello
    I own a 22 mag WMR by Grendel P30 model. I am in need of a couple of parts. I believe that the designer of the P30 later went to work with KEL-TEC and was part of the P30 PMR designer. My question is can you tell me where I may find parts for my Gendel P30? Any information will be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your service

    Robert

    • Bruce Layne

      George Kellgren was the owner of Grendel, the manufacturer of the P-30. Grendel is no longer in business. George Kellgren now owns Kel-Tec, but Kel-Tec is a completely different company. They don’t service Grendel firearms, nor do they provide any parts for Grendel firearms. Sorry, there’s not a manufacturer to service Grendel firearms anymore. You might be able to find parts for it on the open market, if someone parts one out. Even though the capabilities are very similar, the PMR-30 and the P-30 are completely different firearms with no common parts.

  • Lee wiles
  • JimB

    TANDEMKROSS makes a sweet aftermarket picatinny rail for this gun that allows you to mount virtually any micro red dot on the market. I put a cheap NcStar on mine and it rocks now in terms of accuracy.

  • gil
  • DON MAY

    i like to buy one where can i fine one

  • bbbb