New Stag Arms Model 8 (Piston)
Stag Arms's newest AR-15 is the piston operated Model 8 carbine.
Model 8 Piston Carbine
Stag have not released much information about the rifle. It looks much the same as their M4-style Model 3 carbine. I am not sure if the piston system is their own design (if you can identify, please do in the comments). It looks like it could be a long-stroke design, but I am not sure. UPDATE: See below.
Piston system can be seen when upper handguard is removed.
| Specifications | |
|---|---|
| Caliber | 5.56mm NATO |
| Upper | Forged and Mil Spec |
| Operating System | Short Stroke Piston |
| Sights | Midwest Industries Front & Rear Flip Sight |
| Barrel | 16" Chrome Lined 1/9 Twist |
| Magazine | Standard AR-15 |
| Stock | 6 Position Collapsible |
| MSRP (Price) | $1,145 (standard model) and $1,175 (Model 8L left handed) |
| Availability | December this year. |
Lefties will be pleased to see that a left-handed model will be available.
UPDATE: David from Stag told me that it is a short-stroke piston that Stag Arms designed.
And yet another AR manufacturer turns out a piston driven system. Looks like D.I. will be consigned to the history books.
Is it me or is the gun industry getting as homogenous as the car industry – with everything looking and feeling and operating the same way but with a different badge on it?
Why should I buy the Stag over the S&W or the Ruger?
The half-length piston tube and front-mounted gas plug look very much like an FN-FAL (late model; the early ones have a full-length tube.)
-=[ Grant ]=-
That looks familiar. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/06/12/bushmaster-a3m4-gas-piston-photos/
I’ll pass . . .
I’m really hoping that they offer a retrofit kit for owners of existing Stag rifles. I have a Stag 2TL and would definitely buy a kit if it was offered.
This really looks very similar to the Adams Arms piston kit.
I wonder how much just the upper half is.
SpudGun,
No DI is a better design then the Piston counterpart. It’s not going anywhere. The gun manufactures is cratering to people that don’t understand DI.
From the looks of it its a close copy to the HK M-416 rifle.
I don’t think it a close copy of HK or Adams Arms. It looks like an in house design. At least the gas block is pinned to the barrel.
DI gun can get away with screw on gas block because they don’t have a piston hit it back and forth.
jdun1911, you are an incredibly knowledgeable man and I always look out for you comments on here, but I’m going to disagree with you about D.I. going the way of the Dodo.
I can’t think of a single new gas operated rifle that’s being designed or introduced with a direct impingment gas system. I do know that D.I. supporters love the accuracy and recoil of their gas systems, but the cleaning / lubing and perceived reliability of these weapons leave a lot of people cold.
I believe this switchover is a direct result of AKs flooding the market and functioning almost flawlessly under extreme conditions. This maybe down to a piston gas system or more likely, the looser tolerances of the AK but the perception is that piston systems are more reliable.
Unfortunately, the D.I. supporters always begin by saying ‘it’s just as reliable if it’s cleaned / lubed / maintained properly’. Also unfortunately, a lot of people don’t treat their weapons as well as you or I.
Sorry, but I do think D.I. is on the way out.
D.I.= Buh-Bye…Good riddance crud maker.
DI has a piston too. AR DI doesn’t take much clearing to be honest. It just need to be well lube. That’s the key to any functional firearms.
Pistol AR is fundamentally flaw. The AR was not design to take a piston. It was tried in the early 1970 and the flaws were apparent.
1. It is heavier.
2. It tilt, that means it will destroy your upper as well as your buffer tube.
3. It has more parts that means more failures.
4. It is less accurate.
5. It has more recoil.
6. It will not hold up in extreme weather especially in cold weather.
7. When the piston jam it will be a hard jam. That means you have to take your rifle apart to clear it.
8. It does not run cleaner. The carbon doesn’t disappear. It is redistributed to the piston instead of the bolt.
I could go on but I’ll stop right there. This has been discus on AR15 as well as here.
“AR DI doesn’t take much cleaning to be honest.” That’s what I meant.
DI is in the minority these days (by that I mean type of rifles using it vs. types that don’t … not volume) but new guns are still being developed that use the system. The new VHS bullpup:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/12/16/new-croatian-vhs-assault-rifle/
Colt is thought by many, including myself, to be the eventual winner of the Marines IAR competition and both their entries use DI.
I won’t jump into the DI vs Piston debate (though I have extensive experience with both systems and working on them) but I will point to some interesting options when sticking with DI that can alleviate some of the issues people have with them.
There’s been some advancement in metal coatings in the past few years which have a lot of promise in the AR department. I’m referencing specifically the FailZero brand, who coat bolts and bolt carriers (as well as 1911 slides and parts) in their proprietary “exo” coating which has a very slick surface and extremely long life. Their claims aren’t bogus, you really can run your AR without lube using their BCGs. If I recall Costa and the guys at Magpul ran a FailZero BCG through a couple courses and were very happy with it. Brownells carries them now, and they’re in the same price range as a good chromed BCG.
For my (current) personal DI AR, I use a cleaner called Gunzilla which also doubles as an exceptional dry lubricant. Since I built this gun a few months ago I’ve used nothing but Gunzilla to clean it, including the bore, and the results have been overwhelmingly positive. I essentially scrub it down with Gunzilla, run a patch or two through the bore, and wipe down the BCG with a shop rag to mop up excess. Then it’s off to the range, no oiling or greasing of any kind. After a dozen trips to the range and a heck of a lot of ammo (both drills and bench shooting) I have yet to encounter a single malfunction of any kind.
Anyway, anecdotal as it is that’s my two cents. Both work, both have problems.
The thing about the AR is always mentioned is that it needs maintenance, that if it fails it is due to the user not doing all that is necessary. For a hunting rifle I can understand that, but for a battle rifle that’s insane. I don’t ever remember hearing of GIs during WW2 having to do fastidious maintenance on their M1 Garands to keep them operating yet I do remember hearing how in places like Iwo Jima that taking a time out to clean your weapon was not possible or an insane thing to do.
A battle rifle should be reliable above all else and the direct impingement of the AR is not even close to the most reliable design.
As to the product at hand, I don’t get the reasoning behind making yet another AR, piston or otherwise as the market is saturated. Everybody makes an AR or a 1911 nowadays.
cmmg gets no love?
And about accuracy…there are piston guns known for good accuracy, like the the SIG551 and the HK417.
Steve,
There will be always more pistol type rifles then DI. That’s a given. In term of volume the AR is second to AK.
Did you get my email on the IAR? The Marine is going to decide who is the winner this month.
I agree that Colt will be the winner. The company is run by an ex Marine General after all. hehehe
Tom,
There is no need for special coating. It’s just a marketing gimmick. The problem is people do not put enough oil on the rifle. I’ve seen posts that stated a drop of oil is all you need for X rifle. That is pure BS. You spray the rifle down until it is dripping oil. If you don’t like oil, use grease or whatever. The important thing is that firearms needs to be well lubricated.
The AR15 needs to be “well maintenance” is BS. What AR and other rifles needs is lubricant. My AR that I use is heavily greased. I have over 2k 5.56 and over 10k of .22lr and the only cleaning since then is running a bore snake twice. The inside of my AR is full of filth, with the exception of misfire on .22lr ammo I have no malfunction.
http://rpginn.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1055&Itemid=1
http://rpginn.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1054&Itemid=40
Vitor,
Piston in whatever form if all things are equal, DI will win 10 out of 10 times.
jdun1911,
I respectfully disagree regarding Failzero’s products. I’ve had some experience with their stuff; despite not owning one of their BCGs myself I do plan on purchasing one at some point. They’ve been very open to critique and have handed out demo units to a number of firearm industry bigwigs to test, including Costa and the guys at Magpul. I’ve heard nothing but positive feedback on them thus far.
If a particular type of finish is more effective in preventing malfunctions, while at the same time requiring less maintenance on the user’s end, why not? Chromed BCGs and chrome lined barrels were once a “marketing gimmick” as well, and now they’re just another accepted part in the AR builder’s vast catalog.
As I said, I’ve run a couple thousand rounds through my DI AR running it completely *dry* and only wiping the BCG off with a rag after a range trip. Gunzilla is another “gimmick” product that does really work, and saves me lots of time with the many clean an oil jobs I do a month at the shop.
Hm. Looks like the FailZero coating is the nickel-boron stuff from UCT. UCT picked up some DoD contracts to coat wear parts on existing arms too. Interesting.
I’d love to try nickel silicon carbide coating on AR parts. The coating has a hardness rating of 600 on the Vickers scale, and a sliding hardness of 58 to 60 Rockwell C. It also has the ability attract and hold oil (“oleophilic”) which makes it very wear resistant. They use it in sleveless motorcycle engines as a cylinder bore coating. Wonder if a hybrid coating is possible, using nickel boron with silicon carbide… hard, holds oil, and has self lubricating properties. Coat all the moving stuff and the barrel too
This is just a pined in CMMG Piston retrofit kit. They just leased the patents from CMMG and had their name engraved on the bolt carrier. Not a big fan of the CMMG kit as I have heard a few problems with reliability. My AA kit seems to be working well and SW M&P series AR-15 rifles will have a pined version of the AA piston kit avaliable possibly by the end of this year.
I own a POF. This is my first piston AR and so far i love the rifle. My only complaint is that my picanny rail is 12 inches long and it adds a ton of weight to my rifle.
I fired a ton of M 16 A2’s, A4’s and M4’s and they all performed well. The only part that i hate about the gas operated systems is that it gets very dirty and cleaning the chamber becomes a pain. I found that for the battlefield the current M4’s and A4’s are not very reliable. You have to cake the rifle with oil and the oil attracts all kinds of dust and sand causing malfunctions.
During ideal weather conditions, i believe the gas system will do just fine, but in the sand box or in the jungle i think the military could really benefit from a piston AR.
As far as my POF goes, i read an article that i could fire up to 15k rounds without cleaning the rifle because the entire upper receiver, bcg, and charging handle is coated with their NP3 coating. With the price of ammo the way it is, i guess i will never find out.
That be a CMMG Piston, on yet another crappy Stag gun.
Ya know what pistons are good for? Cans. They are still dirty (contrary to popular belief), but still manage to run cleaner (just slightly) in comparison to DI.
I will still take a DI over a piston any day..The only piston system on the market that looks any good – and functions great, is the PWS system…stays true to AK form.
True it is just the CMMG retrofit kit and due to the fact that it’s aluminum I’m not a fan. SW M&P model uppers have a few that used a pined version of the Adams Arms kit but is a decent grade Stainless Steel (410C). Essentually the Adams kit is a more user friendly version of the LWRCI and reliability is pretty much the same. Contrary to what some have writen in this blog STAG makes high quality rifles at a super low price. Most brands are a “get what you pay for” level of quality but not STAG. I have 2 DIs’ and 1 piston upper, 1 DI and 1 Piston in a Carbine length system and the other is a Rifle length DI system. All work very well although the Piston is much cleaner and cooler. My piston is on an 11.5″ with a ADDAX FSC 556 Brake and it works well. 1 DI is a 15.5″ with a Bushy AK-74 Brake on a Fluted Bull and the other is a non-comped 20″. CMMG makes good rifles but I don’t recomend their Pistons due to materials and horror stories. If you have the $ buy a POF, LWRCI, Spikes Tactical, Adams Arms, or a Osprey Kit as long as you’re using a 14.5″ or smaller barrel with a gas block diameter no larger than .750″. To each their own so don’t knock the Piston or the DI because each have their + and -.
The SBR DUDE.
I emailed stag about the comments that it is just a CMMG and they stated that it is NOT a CMMG. It is made in house, but they did say it looks similar. FWIW