DOD banning sale of fired brass

The Defense Logistics Agency, the DOD logistics support agency, has decreed that all fired brass sold off by US Military will need to be mutilated (ie. turned in scrap brass). thanegrooms @ ar15.com has been keeping a forum thread updated with news about this unfortunate development. From an email he received:

Please take a moment to note important changes set forth by the Defense Logistics Agency:

Recently it has been determined that fired munitions of all calibers, shapes and sizes have been designated to be Demil code B. As a result and in conjunction with DLA’s current Demil code B policy, this notice will serve as official notification which requires Scrap Venture (SV) to implement mutilation as a condition of sale for all sales of fired munitions effective immediately. This notice also requires SV to immediately cease delivery of any fired munitions that have been recently sold or on active term contracts, unless the material has been mutilated prior to sale or SV personnel can attest to the mutilation after delivery. A certificate of destruction is required in either case.

12608970
One fired brass military brass being auctioned. Will now require mutilation.

The NRA is aware of the situation and are hoping to have a waiver put in place so that fired brass .50 and smaller in caliber will not be required to undergo mutilation.
Follow any new developments here.

UPDATE: I pulled this blog post pending confirmation due to concern this was just a misunderstanding concerning existing rules/regulations and I did not want to alarm anyone. Unfortunately this is not the case. Andy Byers sent me a twitter message to say that Georgia Arms have confirmed it. From their website:

Due to new government regulations concerning the purchasing of surplus brass, we are removing sales of all 223 and all 308 until further notice.

UPDATE: Cannoneer has more info and links here.



Steve Johnson

Founder and Dictator-In-Chief of TFB. A passionate gun owner, a shooting enthusiast and totally tacti-uncool. Favorite first date location: any gun range. Steve can be contacted here.


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  • War Wolf

    I emailed my Senators here in NY. I know it is a fart in the wind but supposedly one of them is pro 2A (well at least she was before she was selected to be a NY senator). Chuck U. Schumer on the other hand is a lost cause.

  • bill-tb

    Obama is one vindictive fart isn’t he.

    It would be nice if he would prove he is American and not some reject from the Indonesian military jhunta.

  • daskro

    This supposed ban is lacking a tremendous amount of evidence. The Facts are that Georgia Arms says their supplier is not selling them brass because of supposedly new regulation. Their supplier is saying they can not longer buy brass because of new regulation. This new regulation hasn’t been cited anywhere except from an e-mail. DLA’s has neither made a statement nor updated the regulations on their site, nor have any executive orders been signed. This is hysteria.

  • redmanlaw

    What’s the rationale for this action? Can the reg still be challenged administratively by the industry?

  • Matt Groom

    This is just another attempt by the DOD to waste money by refusing to sell used equipment to qualified civillians. I hope the Obama administration cuts the DOD’s budget to 1/10th of what it currently is and that the next Republican administration tells them where they can stick it.

    Not selling live ammo because it’s semi-armor piercing is one thing, not selling used and otherwise worthless components is very clearly an agenda issue. The idea is to disarm the militia or to make participation in the militia as expensive as possible.

    But that’s okay, since the crap the military keeps adopting is increasingly poorer in performance than the stuff that emerges on the sporting goods market anyway. Better boots, better camo, better rifles, better ammo, better foodstuffs, better health and comfort equipment, better everything. Mil-Spec equipment sucks nowadays.

  • 9Shooter

    Someone I know also contacted our reps. Here is the response he got. Apparently nothing has changed yet, but it is being discussed.

    Thank you for contacting me regarding the government sale of surplus parts. I appreciate hearing from you and welcome the opportunity to respond.

    As a long-standing fiscal conservative, I share your concerns with terminating all military surplus sales and the impact on small business owners, as well as our nation’s economy. Congress has a responsibility to continue strong oversight of this issue to ensure programs governing the allocation and disposal of surplus equipment are implemented fairly while not threatening our national security.

    As you may know, a recent investigation on the Department of Defense’s (DOD) Defense Logistic Agency (DLA) is responsible for the disposal of government equipment and supplies considered “surplus” or deemed unnecessary to the agency’s currently designated mission. Under DLA, the Defense Reutilization and Marketing Service is charged with the disposal of surplus and excess defense equipment and supplies. Property not reused by the DOD, transferred, or donated can be sold to the general public through public auctions and sealed bidding. The DLA is currently in the midst of reviewing its rules for handling surplus, but no changes have been made at this time.

    I agree with your assessment of the importance of this issue and recognize that national security and economic growth need not be mutually exclusive. Securing our nation against the threat of terrorism is an ongoing conflict that has introduced new challenges for the United States government. As we move forward, our nation must remain capable of adjusting to meet these emerging threats. Please rest assured that I will continue to work with my colleagues in Congress to promote safe transactions of U.S. military equipment.

    Again, thank you for contacting me. Please feel free to contact me in the future on this or other matters of interest to you. For more information about the issues before the U.S. Senate as well as news releases, photos, and other items of interest, please visit my Senate website, http://crapo.senate.gov.

    Sincerely,

    Mike Crapo
    United States Senator

    • 9Shooter, they surely do not consider selling surplus brass to be a national security issue! And terrorism! Sheesh

  • Concerned_Soldier

    I wonder who came up with this brilliant idea? The only people who will benefit are the larger Ammo manufacturers, they are the only ones who have the capability to turn this back into useable product.

    Matt,
    Are you in the service?

    I respect your opinion, but I would tend to disagree with your comment. M

    Military equipment is getting better and better!! We are purchasing off-the-shelf technology that is far ahead of other militaries and can far out-distance (in many ways) any civilian and most foreign capabilities!

    I would agree with you, that there are ways of making some things better, like Piston Driven ARs vs. Gas or .40/.45 vs 9MM, but our equipment is some of the best in the world, I have carried it and used it in all seasons and war and I can tell you that most survivalists and hunters/hikers/campers, would love to have the stuff I and the soldiers I served with have/had!

    Most of the time I use my gear from the military to hunt/hike and camp outdoors. Boots/Cold/Wet Weather Gear especially.

    If our equipment is so bad, why do manufacturers always compare it to the US Military equipment standard? MIL-SPEC…

    V/R

    C_S

    • I do wonder if this is a political decision, or just a classic military SNAFU ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNAFU ). I mean this decision will put a lot of people out of a job, did Obama really think this would not attract attention?

  • Concerned_Soldier

    Oh sorry,
    Great post by the way Steve!!

    V/R

    C_S

    • Concerned_Soldier, thanks buddy πŸ™‚

  • Andy

    As a fiscal conservative, I must ask from those more knowledgable than I, would the DOD make more money in scrap sales?

    Not that scrap requires mutilation (or does it… I’m a network engineer, not a scrap dealer).

    • Andy, I imagine they make a fair bit more selling it as brass cases, rather than scrap brass. It is auctioned off and reloaders and companies who sell “refurbished” ammo would be willing to pay a lot more than the price of the weight of brass.

      I would think scrap dealers are very pleased about this new regulation.

  • Concerned_Soldier

    Steve, Andy,
    I have been to the DRMO yard at a unnamed Fort in Texas (hint somewhere between Temple and Austin) and they have the stuff in giant bins waiting to be sold as scrap!

    The ASP (Ammo Supply Point) does require we return spent brass after all livefires and Range Operations.

    Scrap metal dealers bring in trucks all the time to pick up all kinds of unused metals and scrap for sale and reutilization. You can check it out @ http://www.drms.dla.mil/

    Take a look at the price of scrap metal right now @ http://scrapmetalpricesandauctions.com/

    V/R

    C_S

  • DOD Surplus is claiming that this is a new policy of the Defense Logistics Agency. However, there is no announcement of a policy change on the DLA website (http://www.dla.mil/DLAPublic/DLA_Media_Center/). Somebody missed a memo, it seems, but who?

  • This is maddening. I wouldn’t doubt for a minute BO was behind this pushing his anti-gun agenda.

  • Gents, I just got an e-mail saying that Cam & Company was just discussing this on http://www.nra.org

  • I posted on this subject on another forum got much grief from people who wanted to blame this on George Bush and who claimed that mutilation has always been the rule – blah, blah, blah.

    Here is what I was able to find out. According to DoD’s demilitarization requirements (DoD 4160.21-M-1, Appendix 4), expended cartridge/shell casings .50 caliber and under are assigned demil code “E” which means that they require demilitarization (destruction) overseas or prior to being shipped overseas. That is clearly not what we are talking about here.

    Much of the confusion regarding this matter seems to come from a DRMS memo, dated May 27, 2008 that expanded LSI’s (meaning Government Liquidation’s) authority to include oversight, audit and verification procedures for the destruction of DOD scrap property sold to the public. This memo did NOT grant LSI the authority to reclassify property or otherwise determine what should or should not be destroyed, but some people in the blogosphere have incorrectly interpreted it that way.

    What I find interesting is that the letter you excerpted above states that, “Recently it has been determined that fired munitions of all calibers, shapes and sizes have been designated to be Demil code B. As a result and in conjunction with DLA’s current Demil code B policy, this notice will serve as official notification which requires Scrap Venture (SV) to implement mutilation as a condition of sale for all sales of fired munitions effective immediately.”

    The DoD Order I mentioned at the outset states that items classified as Demil B do not require demilitarization. That sort of makes you scratch your head, doesn’t it?

    In short, I think somebody must have gotten a memo that none of us have seen yet. Nothing in the current public record explains this sudden decision to destroy brass casings being sold domestically and for domestic use only.

  • Cam and Company was discussing this on the NRA News broadcast this evening. More on the matter should be discussed tomorrow night and hopefully some answers.

  • Philip
  • Andy, The Shootist just links to the same report from Georgia Arms. So far, there’s one report of this from one manufacturer. That’s it. Now it is entirely possible (nay, LIKELY) that our current President or one of his minions has initiated this to knock gun owners down a peg or two, but it is also possible this is a misunderstanding and not a change in policy.

    One announcement on one website is all we have here: Let’s hold ourselves to a higher standard than the MSM, who manufactured the “Mexican drug gangs have American guns!” hysteria out of thin air, and do some research here. Let’s find out if this is a misunderstanding, but if it is not, and the DOD has halted brass sales, then the full force of the NRA and gun owners everywhere needs to come down hard on them, and fast.

  • DisgruntledCitizen

    http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=2272021&convertTo=USD

    quote from link (all-caps text is original):
    LOT (37, 655 LBS)APPROX SMALL CALIBER FIRED BRASS INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO (12, 850 LBS )5. 56 MM , (4, 063 LBS)9MM BALL EXPENDED, (8, 389 LBS)7. 62 MM, (4, 906 LBS)50 CALIBER. STORED IN 11, 8′ CONTAINERS. WEIGHT OF CONTAINERS IS INCLUDED IN THE WEIGHT AND SALE. ALL SCRAP IN THIS SALE REQUIRES MUTILATION BY THE BUYER PRIOR TO REMOVAL IF ALLOWED BY THE INSTALLATION OR MUTILATION MUST BE WITNESSED AND CERTIFIED BY DOD SURPLUS PERSONNEL AT ANOTHER FACILITY. THE TITLE TO THE MATERIAL DOES NOT PASS TO THE BUYER UNTIL THE SCRAP HAS BEEN MUTILATED. BUYER AGREES TO ALLOW USG PERSONNEL TO WITNESS DESTRUCTION. WILL LOAD FLATBED ONLY.

  • Freiheit

    +1 for what ExurbanKevin said. GeorgiaArms does have an incentive to induce more buying frenzies and raise prices. They have a decent reputation though.

    DisgruntledCitizen seems to have another collaborating source however that same source is also a commercial entity that also does not cite the DOD reg. They may have picked it up from the chatter on the internet and opted to cover their asses by posting that disclaimer.

    I’m cautiously pissed off. I’ll bring this up around my gun friends who will attempt to confirm it, but I’ll wait until I can cite a rule, regulation, or law requiring it before I use it in a policy paper or in a debate with anyone.

  • Meanwhile, back at the ar15.com thread, Epic_Ed says

    As of this morning our company was informed that expended munitions brass will now be reclassified as Demil Q –– which requires no mutilation unless sold to a foreign country.

  • I am pleased to be able to say that the ban has been lifted:

    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/03/18/dod-brass-ban-lifted/

  • Karen

    I guess we need to collect it while we can! You can find really cool stuff at http://bestmilitarysurplus.com/more-then-the-punisher-shirt-what-would-the-punisher-buy-from-a-military-surplus-store/