Kel-Tec RFB 7.62mm bullpup rifle
Kel-Tec displayed their new RFB 7.62×51mm (.308) bullpup rifle at SHOT Show. SMGLee took some great photos.
With suppressor, nice!
Wikipedia has this to say about the rifle:
The Kel-Tec RFB High Efficiency Rifle (Rifle, Forward-ejection, Bullpup) is a gas-operated semi-automatic rifle with a tilting breechblock locking mechanism, manufactured by Kel-Tec Industries of Florida. It loads the 7.62×51mm NATO (.308 Winchester) cartridge and uses metric FAL magazines. The rifle uses a patented forward-ejection system via a tube placed over the barrel that ejects the spent case forwards, over the handguard of the rifle.
The rifle is a forward ejecting semi-automatic firearm chambered in 7.62 mm NATO (.308 Winchester), utilizing a short-stroke gas piston. To avoid the sloppy trigger pull typical of bullpup style firearms, the RFB utilizes a floating linkage bar between the sear and the hammer, allowing the sear to remain above the trigger. The weapon is fully ambidextrous, much in the style of the French FAMAS bullpup assault rifle. The RFB accepts FN FAL style magazines, and is delivered without iron sights. A mil-spec Picatinny rail is standard.
Here is a video of the rifle, clearly showing the forward ejection.
Kel-Tec plans to offer three different four versions each with a different barrel length:
- Carbine (18″),
- Sporter (24″),
- Target (32″ heavy barrel, or 26″ stainless steel barrel)
The rifle is expected this quarter (1st quarter 2008) in the forth quarter, see the comments by dogon1013.
More images after the jump.
Click to enlarge the images.
I heard they were going to retail these for a couple of grand.
Might as well get an AR for that.
James
Sorry,
But the official word is that the release is being pushed back to 4th quarter this year. (from 2008 SHOT show info).
dogon1013on, thanks for the info, I have updated the article. Thats a pity
Yeah, that’s too bad about the delay. I totally want one of these critters!
BTW, 7.62×51. The x53 was the Belgian/Argentine equivalent. I’m a retired military weapons instructor, in case you want my credentials. Not slamming you, just want to catch you before you look bad. Just trying to help.
Thank scmblake6! That was a typo. I wrote most of that post late at night
Please feel free to correct my mistakes.
Hi James, thanks for the info. Even if it is pricey, it is very cool!
the forward ejection system looks like it could jam if the gun used burst or auto, and the recoil looks high. i mean, thats never going to be fielded methinks
Yes, I also wondered about that forward ejection.
I shot a lot of weapons in the military and would choose maybe a handful to take into a hot situation. Thats the point of having an “assault” rifle right? I own several and they’re either an Ak style or AR style because they are simple to use, always work, and are comfortable. I would really need to fire it myself. It seemed like those guys in the video were having trouble keeping it steady. Now if it were 5.56 id take a closer look. Also, does anyone think that the casings might fall in front of the barrel during operation?
I don’t know. They could easily direct the brass to fly out at a slight angle.
The forward eject MAY have some uses/benefits, but other than making the rifle ambidextrous I can’t see it. Firing level or downhill, fine. Uphill or clearing stairwells, etc, can you say potential for jamming is just too high?
Great, unsafe behavior propagated on the net. How nice.
If anyone knows who those guys are tell them to keep their finger off the **** trigger when their sights are not on the target. No, hovering slightly off the trigger is not ‘off the trigger’. Completely out of the trigger guard and pressed against something else is ‘off the trigger’.
For everyone else, before you start posting movies of yourself shooting guns on the net please learn how to shoot safely.
After you fire the last round in your mag and the bolt-hold-open device holds your bolt open, THERE IS STILL AN EMPTY ROUND SUSPENDED IN THE RECEIVER!
It somehow seems untidy engineering.
I just think forward ejection is not the final answer to th bullpup ejection problem Downward ejection is the answer, as in the FN P90.
Of course the problem with downward ejection is you need the mag on top. And it sticks up right beside your face. FN solved the problem in the P90 by stacking the rounds horizontally and rotating them during feeding. Calico arms solved the problem with a helical (spiral) feed.
Maybe the P90 solution could extended to bigger rounds, but you would need a perfectly cylindrical body on the case same as the 5.7 X 28.
I wonder if a straight Bren-gun-type mag sticking up in the air on a bullpup might be acceptable, if it were positioned a bit further back. This would require a design with a very short bolt, even a telescoping bolt.
Maybe the Robinson Arms M96 top-feed could be adapted.
dan, the rule has always been finger on the triger only when pointed in a safe direction. the gun is always pointed downrange in the video and when angled slightly up for reloading the finger was clearly off the triger and the bolt was locked back.
quit being overly critical of peoples gun handeling. at no point in this video was anything unsafe done. i agree that guns should be handled very carefully, but being a nazi is unnecessary.
Mmmm, methinks this gun has potential. There seem to quite a few design issues though none of which can’t be solved. Personally i’d prefer a assault rifle to have less recoil, there has to be some way to use spent casing work against muzzle climb. this gun would make hell of a cool bull pup sniper style rifle. “THE GAMER GUN NUT”
Hmmmmmm….. Santa I’d like this for Xmas! The pros of a lightweight bullpup, firing 7.62 NATO in a package the size of a M-4 is great. I’ve been considering buying a FN Fs-2000 rifle for a while now. It however is in 5.56mm and goes for $2000. If kel Tec can sell this for a bit less they have a winner.
Well, I’ve watched the video a number of times. Gun SEEMS to work just fine. If I had the money, I’d probably get one. I’d still like to see a bottom ejection, but that would be difficult. It’s been tested, it obviously works, but I’ve just got this nagging whisper in the back of my head about working upwards for clearing stairwells and such. Can’t help it.
On my gun wish list. Check out the feature article in Special Weapons August September 2008 issue.
Just wish the stupid thing didn’t cost so flaming much. I’d absolutely LOVE to have one, but my bank account precludes that.
i don’t know about that forward ejection, i am assuming this rifle is intended for military applications, and something like that looks like a jam waiting to happen. i would imagine that any bump on the tube or debris would block the rounds, backing up the whole system and causing a long delay, since you wouldn’t know you had a jam for about 3 rounds, and then you would jam and have to deal with 3 stuck casings in the ejection tube.
If you will help I have a ? for you. Does Kel-Tec mannufacture a RFB model in .223? If so, please send details.
“i would imagine that any bump on the tube or debris would block the rounds, backing up the whole system and causing a long delay, since you wouldn’t know you had a jam for about 3 rounds, and then you would jam and have to deal with 3 stuck casings in the ejection tube.”
Well, any debris large enough to cause that kind of problem is probably going to screw with any weapon. There is a small ramp (spring loaded) in the tube that prevents spent brass from falling back into the ejection area of the receiver.
The main threat will come from crappy brass that blows up and gets stuck in the chamber. Shoot cheap ammo at your own risk.
I’ve seen video of the gun with the action/ejection area cut away in operation. If anything, the rifle is less prone to some types of ejection problems (such as stove piping) than a standard ejector that grabs the rim and flings the brass. The brass is pushed forward at the same time that a fresh round is chambered. If you have several casings in the tube and fire straight up it should work fine. As for brass being flung in front of the barrel, that won’t happen either unless you were shooting down, conceivably, but that is a risk with any other rifle, too. Sure the p90 is neat-o, but you don’t want to dip that thing in the mud and pray that its going to work. That is almost a Rube Goldberg solution and I wouldn’t want to carry it in the field.
also, this is a .308. That’s not typically a caliber you want to fire full auto or auto burst…
For those that said that it recoils to much for an assault rifle, that’s because it isn’t an assault rifle. It is an extremely compact battle rifle, firing a full size rifle round. Picture a M1A with an overall length of 27 inches, and that is what this gun is designed to accomplish. Also, if the recoil is to much, add some weight. It’s a 7 pound gun firing .308, which is several pounds less than an M1A, FAL, or AR-10. Also, this gun, with the 18″ barrel, is a couple inches shorter than an FAL para model with a 16″ barrel and the stock folded. The main thing that worries me about this gun is that it doesn’t appear that it is very easy to look directly into the chamber to check that it is unloaded. the FS-2000 has a little flip up door that lets you look into the chamber, but from the sound of it, you would have to flip the RFB over and look in the mag well to see the chamber.
Kel-tec has stated that the RFB was first chambered in .308 because it is easier to take an existing design and make it smaller, than the other way around. In other words, it was easier to design it to fit 308 first, and then size it down to 6.8 spc, 6.5 Grendel, 7.62×39, 5.56×45, 5.45×39, ect. Wait a few years and there should be RFBs chambered in all the popular intermediate rounds.
MSRP has been announced at $1800, and at first, they are expected to sell at least that high. If it turns out that it is easy to view the chamber, I will probably buy one of these after the price drops down a couple hundred under the MSRP.
I have a FN FS2000 which also has forward ejection. I’ve shot nearly 1000 rounds through it so far and have not had any problems with the ejection except at first because there was too much oil in the gun from the factory. And firing upwards is no problem because there is a catch to prevent the shells from going back into the chamber. The system works really well and is being used by special forces in several countries already.
It really is sharp. If the price ever goes down, and if we can even own guns anymore after 1/20/09, I’m really going to want one in x39 I think.
anyone shot this yet? Id love to get a Tavor, but this is .308! Need data on accuracy of this interesting little piece.
I am curently employed at KelTec CNC in Cocoa Florida and I have putba few a rounds (3clips) through the same gun in the video. The first shooter is George Kelgren who is the president and chief engineer or the company. The NATO round through this gun makes for a shooting expirence like non I have ever been through. Mr. Kelgren has seemingly perfected the RFB’s design and it is worth every penny. And just for the record 7.62 NATO and 308 Win. Are different rounds the actual physical sizes are the same but the inner chambers are not the 308 Win is actualy a hotter shooting round with a chamber pressurenof 62000psi compared to the NATO 7.62 wich is around 50000psi shooting a NATO round from a firearm chambered for 308 is fine but the extra 3000 psi in a NATO chambered gun can prove to be a pqinfull combo. Check out this article for more info http://www.thegunzone.com/30cal.html
My concern is what would happen durring a misfire. Would the RFB be able to clear the chamber in a resonable period of time? Does the faulty round have enough clearance to be ejected normally with a rack of the charger, or is a removal of the magazine required?
So Derrick, we may but rest assured that the company has incorporated way beyond required strength into the machinery. IMHO, the only reason for suing a gun company would be for not realizing there are going to be people out there who will test the limits. Especially in the 5.56/.223, 7.62×51/.308 veins. Build to go heavy, no worries at all with light. For example, before I started using my ‘93 Mauser in x51, I researched just how hot those suckers had been tested to when adopted. .308 doesn’t get anywhere near where those have been tested far beyond.
Actually, I mis-stated my opinion. I don’t see suing a gun company FOR that. The only reason valid would be if they knowingly made a cheap pos that was damn near guaranteed to blow up. THEN sue. But for safeties sake, I’m quite assured I could count on anything KelTec.
I was at the SHOT show booth this weekend in Orlando I gave so many presentations on the RFB but at the end of the day everyone was satisfied and they are ready to except them in then world of high performance rifles. Thank you to every one for you kind words and support.
since it seems that there are some kel-tec engineers on here, maybe they can answer my question. Is there any way to directly view the chamber without removing the magazine and flipping the gun over?
I have a question too: can I put a 5 round FAL mag in this gun? The website says 10 or 20 but I’d like to confirm. I ask because I’d like to hunt with one and a 10 round with space permanently reduced to 5 is extra bulk I’d just as soon pass on.
Anything wrong with one of these, specifically?
http://www.dsarms.com/FAL-Metric-5-Round-Steel-Hunting-Mag/productinfo/1175/
Also, is there any ETA on the adjustable triggers or target barrels?
Thanks in advance.
Derrick,
I think I talked to you towards the end of the show as I was the fellow from M&H. I’m still thinking about the manufacturing plans. I’d really like to see if we can do something to enhance them. Shoot me an email when you have a moment.
Thanks
Mike
in the video they have to hold the gun upward to put the next clip in right? well why didnt it jam? there is obveiously a safty of somesort like in a paintball gun that hold the shell casings in the top rail. watch it wen they reload the casing fall back to the reciver but none fall in
look at in the video 1:13 and watch him reload
nick, I am sure there is a mechanism to prevent the brass falling backwards.
well i was reading the blog and realized that the topic from the brass falling backwards just never got answered so i went ahead and did that lol
how much is this thing gunna cost anyway
MSRP: $1880.00
Wow, $1189.66? How can that be?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgHRzakGAUY&feature=related
Well, Kel-Tec said the RFB would be available toward the end of February. I’ve been looking around and haven’t seen any indication that it’s on the market yet. Anyone have any input on this? I’m ready to buy as soon as I can find one.
As for the rifle’s recoil. It looks to be a kicker alright. There are highly effective muzzle brakes (yes it’s muzzle BRAKE, not break) out there. I’m sure they’d reduce the recoil quite a bit. But realize that any gun this light is going to kick when firing a 7.62×51. Also, the rearward weight bias of bullpup designs doesn’t help stability any during recoil. Notice though, that there was very little muzzle flip!
They are out there now… one is posted on Gunbroker.com and another on GunsAmerica.com. I’ve ordered one from 3 dealers and so far none of them have found me one yet.
Why would you order the same rifle from three different dealers? Are you going to buy three?
This rifle’s design isn’t conducive to mild recoil. No big spring in the stock to soften the blow like on an AR and it’s happening RIGHT in front of your shoulder.
I’m curious to see how it shoots, and, while I’d like to have one, I will probably wait until some reviews are out before committing. The free float front end is great and all,….but with everything else attached to the barrel it may be a mute point.
Curious.
I’d like to see the “target” version in action at say 1000 yds. And what about the target these guys were shooting at. Its a cool looking rifle, but can it hit the broad side of a barn at 200 yds?
Me,
The buffer spring in the stock of an AR is not there to reduce recoil. It is there to allow the bolt to retract and eject the round and then return it to a closed position. The RFB has springs that do the same thing, there just not in the stock. Both actions absorb a small potion of the recoil as opposed to a bolt/pump/lever action where the action dosen’t absorb any of the recoil. The difference in recoil between a typical AR and the RFB is mainly do to the fact that most AR shoot .223/5.56 which produce substantially less recoil than a .308/7.62 round. The weight of the weapon also affects recoil. The heavier the weapon, the less recoil. One thing I did notice from videos of the RFB being fired is that there appears to be minimal muzzel climb, which is a good thing.
I wrote Kel Tec last week about availability, they said 6 to 9 months (I’m hoping that’s exaggerating to make me feel good when it comes in early)
I went ahead and placed my order with my local dealer for the carbine version.
For me it fits the bill as a single gun for home defense and a hunting.
Previously I was looking at an AR 15, but it’s a bit long for home and underpowered for large game. Also my brother is a lefty and we can share the RFB.
Tool less breakdown
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4K_PPe5Rnk
Price at :53 seconds into video $1,189.66
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgHRzakGAUY
Some may think the price is high, but for the configuration I was looking at in a quality custom build of an AR (less sights), it’s the same, with more function.
I just hope it’s actually solid (done and right) when I get it.
I hope they get them out before the ban! Especially in large enough numbers that we can all get one. I know they said they’re going to release the carbine version first. It’s going to be hard to hold out for the mid length version, but that’s the one I’m after.
As for the $1,186 price, that was the price RSR had listed at the SHOT Show. They’re a wholesale distributor only. Kel-Tec is listing them at $1899 suggested retail if I remember right, which means that there’s no way that it will wholesale for $1,186, especially from RSR which is the highest priced wholesaler that I’ve ever dealt with. I’m curious what actual street price will be on them. I’m guessing over $2,000 for a while. Until supply starts catching up with demand.
I just went to RSR’s site to see if they had them listed. Sometimes they will list things that they don’t have yet, to generate pre-orders. Nothing. Oddly enough, they didn’t even have any Kel-Tec guns, just magazines and accessories.
I think the 24″ barrel is a perfect for this rifle. Barrel length is equla to a M-24 and weapon length is equal to an M4 Carbine.
You can pre-order one from Impact uns for $1800. First guns to hit the market are being auctioned off for close to $3000
I think I will wait a bit for the madness to subside.
I’m a left BTW and I love the front ejection.
I have 3 on order to improve my chances of getting one. No one required me to put money down since they said they would have no problem getting rid of it if I changed my mind. I may actually purchase 2 if the opportunity should arise. RSR does have the rifle listed on their site, item #KTRFB18. Supposedly they only have two employees assembling them right now but they are in the process of installing two assembly lines so production should ramp up soon hopefully.
My neighbor works at a local (Salt Lake City) gunshop, and several weeks ago he told me about the Kel-Tec RFB. The place he works has one they ordered for someone who hasn’t picked it up yet. When I went by the shop the other day he pulled it out of the back room and let me look at it.
Waaaay cool, and my gun collection is getting thinned out to pay for one.
My buddy is getting one too.
I would like to see how well they group.
FAL mags. To bad they didnt use HK-91/G3 mags. Light weight aluminum 20 rounders that are super cheap and easy to get. I still have ten left over after I got rid of my Century C91 Sporter (junk). Oh well….
Derrick
There are some inaccuracies in this:
“And just for the record 7.62 NATO and 308 Win. Are different rounds the actual physical sizes are the same but the inner chambers are not the 308 Win is actually a hotter shooting round with a chamber pressure of 62000psi compared to the NATO 7.62 which is around 50000psi shooting a NATO round from a firearm chambered for 308 is fine but the extra 3000 psi in a NATO chambered gun can prove to be a painful combo.”
Until recently, NATO used CUP to measure pressure & 7.62×51 operated at 50,000CUP rather than PSI. There is no way to convert CUP into PSI due to completely different methods of measurement.
NATO STANAG for 7.62×51 has now been updated to 60,200PSI using the same piezoelectric method as that used by SAAMI & other industry bodies.
There ARE minor dimensional differences in both the case & chamber between 7.62 NATO & .308Win, with the former having thicker case walls & thus less powder capacity.
I have copies of the relevant STANAG documentation somewhere, including cartridge & chamber dimensions & tolerances.
Bill ‘O
I have read post (not sure where) that Kel tek was asked if it was safe to shoot the hotter 308. They said yes, and apparently it says it can shoot 308 in the manual but on the gun itself it says 7.62 x 51 NATO.
So I think they made it bullet proof (pun) for the 308 and it will shoot the weaker NATO rounds. The gas pressure is adjustable and from reading in the Kel tek forums (two posters have them) they adjust the pressure to match their choice in ammo, or compressor installed.
The problem is price point. For that much money you can pick up several rifles in .308 in a carbine from manufacturers who have proven combat and military testing track records.
This is not to say that this rifle isn’t up to the task but as a former Army Ranger I will tell you that none of us would use this firearm. A friend of mine had a Kel-Tec PA32 and at the range it was NOT uncommon to misfire or jam. He sold it and purchased a Sig232 as his back up…thousands of rounds later he has still never had a missfire.
If you are going to purchase a firearm, sock away that extra dough and buy yourself a bomb proof brand like Sig Sauer, CZ, FN Herstal (for a bullpup)… These weapons will be dependable regardless of ammo or abuse. In the end, a weapon is no better than it’s dependability and the calm, trained nerves of the person who is firing it.
bree,
this is not to be argumentative just to clarify the differences of weapon here.
Comparing a pistol of a completely different designed rifle really has no bearing. The functionality of the rifle has been tested for more than a year now, and the few owners that have made post about them have been very very happy. (Kel tek forums and another I can’t think of right now)
Yes there are several other 308 choices out there, the REM700 is great, but, it is not a bullpup, semi auto, or ambidextrous.
The Sig Sauer, and CZ arn’t bullpups (I did a google to see if there was something I didn’t know of, and came up empty), and the FN is 556, not good for big game.
The actual price (not inflated) has been starting at $1250.
My dealer promised me it will be $150 over his cost, this is normal for him on items over $1,000. I’ve read others have pre-orders in for any place from 1200 to 1550, so I don’t think the price it to much considering it meets requirements many of us are looking for -
-Ambidextrous
-Powerful enough for game hunting
-Short enough for a home defense -bullpup
-Semi auto (for follow up shots for home and hunting)
I don’t see anything else matching all 4 of those on the market.
I plan on shooting out to 300 yards max (civilian use) they advertise it as up to 600. It fits my bill from what I’ve learnededed.
Now if I didn’t want a semi auto or care about ambi (both wanted very much here) I would be looking at this – in 308, it is MUCH more money though $3,900+.
http://www.deserttacticalarms.com/
Mahhn, first of all, it’s your money, get whatever floats your boat. I do have a couple comments for you and let them go in one ear..other.
1. The pistol is relevant because all products are reflective of the overall quality of the brand/manufacturer who produces them. Would you pay for $40,000 for a Yugo Sports Car? Kel-Tec is not Hi-Point but they do not have a reputation as premium, combat proven brand. That’s not to say this weapon won’t meet and exceed your expectations.
2. I do not recommend using an assault weapon in .308 for home defense. First, I just wouldn’t trust Kel-Tec dependability in that type of situation. Second, if you have standard hunting rifle round in that chamber you’re likely to take out the bag guy and all your neighbors in the next 3 houses. That’s a big lawsuit. You’d want to buy special ammo for that if you do use it for home defense. God forbid, if you are in that situation, trust me the adrenaline and nerves will be pumping; you will not possess the same skills as you do on the range. It will likely be at night, and you may even have to dodge objects or opposing fire. A shotgun with a pistol grip is a much better choice and accuracy is increased by 300%.
3. To consistently hit anything around 300meters, let alone shoot 1-2 minutes with a bullpup, without the 24 or 32 inch barrel, will be difficult. If you do have a 24 or the 32 inch barrel then you lose some of the CQC qualities of the smaller rifle.
4. WARNING: bringing a bullpup rifle with you on a hunting trip is like wearing a t-shirt that says wanna-be…I would have no problem with it, I say go for it…but my friends are old school…still using their fathers 7mm magnum hunting rifle with woodstock.
5. Big Game? Deer is not big game, and I confess that shot placement is everything..HOWEVER, I do not recommend the .308 for anything bigger than Mule Deer. For Elk, Moose, etc…I highly recommend the .300 win mag. I was on a hunting trip in Alaska and saw a guy put three rounds of .308 in a Moose and we still had to track it for 30 minutes before it died. It was screaming the whole time in pain. The Moose suffered and my friend never hunted after that again.
6. In your post you mention wanting .308 and then you say at the end you can’t afford this in .308????
7. Buy the Ruger Mini-30. Excellent, well proven weapon based on the M-14 (which is still used to this day as a sniper rifle). The Mini-30 is chambered in .308 and is carbine.
Good luck, be safe.
Mahhn…by the way the Mini-30 is about $650-$750…I would recommend one in SS with a synthetic stock. You can also buy 30 round magazines. You’ll have a better weapon than the Kel-Tec and all the attributes of the smaller size. With a scope, you should be just fine out to 300 meters with the Ruger.
Mahhn..apologies…I am in innacurate in saying the mini-30 is chambered in .308…it’s 7.62 x 39 (AK 47 round)…very flat trajectory for the first 150 meters. From what I understand you can get excellent accuracy up to 200m with premium ammo..(do not use the wolf or CommieBlock ammo..very poor quality will result in random shot groups)….you will see some drop at 300 meters but so long as you have zeroed for that, you can adjust your site and be on target.
bfree
1: The pistol ISN’T relevant, just as the issues with the old M16 have no bearing on the current model from the same manufacturer.
Your statement that a 7.62mm expanding bullet will pass through three houses after the BG would be laughable if it were not so inaccurate & irresponsible.
2: Untrue assertions of this kind are what we expect from the GCN & Nancy Pelosi – not a firearms owner.
How can a pistol gripped shotgun be 300% more accurate than a rifle?
I’ll take a handgun over a long arm for personal defence in the confines of my home; unless of course you mean for someone who has no intent to leave the room they’re in at the time.
3: Why assert that a bullpup wont be accurate at 300m?
If anything, the design is inherently MORE accurate due to the more rigid action.
Compare like with like – a semi auto military/defensive rifle & then tell me that an unmodified FAL, M14, G3, CETME or AR10 is going to be consistently more accurate than the bullpup – only the M14 might just be.
4: Weak argument – the Fudds will mutter & whine about taking ANY EBR hunting, be it bullpup, AR15 or FAL.
5: BS .308Win is perfectly capable of taking deer, elk, moose & caribou out past 300yds when used with the right bullet by someone who can shoot better than your friend – that’s bad marksmanship, not an inadequate cartridge to blame.
7: I don’t know if you’ve ever even FIRED a Ruger Mini 30 but I doubt it, as it’s chambered in 7.62×39 not 7.62×51 & I’ve never had it better 4MOA off the bench.
It’s run out of steam at 300yds too………
I went through a LOT of 7.62 NATO in years gone by & know exactly what its terminal effects look like.
bfree, you said a few things that I have to comment to-
First of all, a shotgun with a pistol grip is a very poor choice for home defense. There is absolutely no way that it is 300% more accurate than a rifle. In fact, it’s probably the other way around- the rifle is 300% more accurate than the pistol gripped shotgun. Also, in this day and age, where gangs are starting to aquire bullet proof vests, in some areas, there is a decent chance that a home invader will have such a vest, and while the shotgun might crack some ribs, it isn’t exactly the tool for the job. A rifle round is way better.
Hitting something beyond 300 yards with a 16″ ar and iron sights isn’t that hard provided the guy behind the gun does his part. A moderately accurate .308 with an 18″ barrel will easily be “minute of deer” at 300 yards. The round is certainly capable of that range, as highly accurate bolt guns chambered for .308 can reach out beyond 1000 yards.
I have several friends that have used .308 on elk and moose without issue. They had good shot placement, and the animal went down. If your friend hit the moose 3 times and it didn’t go down, it sounds like poor shot placement.
The mini-30 is chambered in 7.62×39, not .308 win. 7.62×39 is similar to 30-30, so it would be an excellent close range deer gun, and might even take elk at close range when loaded with heavy bullets, but it isn’t going to perform that great at 300 yards. To get something similar to the mini-30, but in .308, you would have to get an M1A from one of the various makers, such as Springfield armory. It will be more expensive, heavier, and longer than the Keltec.
Like I said, the only reason that I don’t like the keltec is I don’t see any provision for being able to look in the chamber directly without removing the magazine and turning the gun over.
bfree,
Thanks for the suggestion of the Mini-30, I noticed the ejection won’t burn a lefty.
“6. In your post you mention wanting .308 and then you say at the end you can’t afford this in .308????”
— no no, you read to fast “Now if I didn’t want a semi auto or care about ambi (both wanted very much here) I would be looking at this – in 308, it is MUCH more money though $3,900+.
http://www.deserttacticalarms.com/”
Check out the above link, although it is a fairly new rifle, I think your gun geekyness (a positive thing) may find it cool.
Mine is paid for, for myself and lefty bother, I expect and hope to enjoy it when it comes in. It can always be replaced.
Hello to all….I appreciate and respect everyone’s opinion.
In the end, it’s best to do what you believe is best. H, all I can say is that it’s a bit different in real life.
You have light, flashes, bullets, objects, noise, dark, etc..I’ve seen guys miss with a rifle at 10 yards. Shotguns will improve your knock down 3-1 in a chaotic, home defense situation. Once you’ve experienced the CQC situation, you’ll know what I mean and how naive Ray and Bill are.
I agree, and I said as much, the .308 is a great deer round, not a great big round gun. Bill would be put in his place by the overwhelming amount of guides in Alaska. Hearing about the 300 meter shot is like hearing “leg” Infantry talk about there road marches with there 65 pound ruck’s…only to weight the ruck at 40lbs…get my drift H?? “The fish was this big”..LOL>
Ray says you have to go to M1A1…come on Ray, how about the good ‘ole M-14 which is still used, effectively I might add, as a sniper rifle..that is a .308 my friend.
Bill…dude…let me tell you that the enemy doesn’t GAF if your .308 and NATO rounds are little hotter or not….MENTAL MASTURBATION doesn’t do much for you in combat.
In the end we are talking about a Kel-Tec…one of the most laughable firearms made…
Dude, buy it if you want, it’s a cheap POS. I’d be embarrassed to even have it in my firearms vault.
When it comes to firearms, there’s a reason that Sig, Beretta, AL, CZ, FN, H&K, blah, blah are all supplying to the military and Kel-Tec ARE NOT.
Think about that.
“You have light, flashes, bullets, objects, noise, dark, etc..I’ve seen guys miss with a rifle at 10 yards. Shotguns will improve your knock down 3-1 in a chaotic, home defense situation. Once you’ve experienced the CQC situation, you’ll know what I mean and how naive Ray and Bill are.”
At ten yards you’re outside the realm of CQC & well outside the range generally involved in an encounter with an intruder.
At that range, OO buck will have a spread of less than 10″ with individual shot having considerably less potential lethality than a single JHP from a handgun.
Once you’ve pushed a bayonet into an Argy conscript’s groin & then pulled the trigger on an L1A1 you might understand how naive I’m not….
…..now THAT is what I call CQC.
Try some trench clearing for real – it makes the bullpup make sense.
Though NOT the 5.56 pill most of them deliver.
bfree:
Once you start calling someone who disagrees with your viewpoint “dude” it signifies a lack of reasoned rebuttal.
“Bill…dude…let me tell you that the enemy doesn’t GAF if your .308 and NATO rounds are little hotter or not….MENTAL MASTURBATION doesn’t do much for you in combat.”
I guess I ought to point out that it was yourself who espoused the superiority of the .300Win Mag over the humble .308 Win viz its ability to kill stuff.
As for this:
“Dude, buy it if you want, it’s a cheap POS. I’d be embarrassed to even have it in my firearms vault.“
I’ll tell you this for free & in order to save future embarrassment: I’ve been around military firearms “for a while” in one way or another & a hands on inspection of this firearm is something you evidently haven’t done.
I’d place it AT LEAST equal to the FN F2000 on build quality & robustness & superior to our current service rifle.
Admittedly I cannot compare MRBF & see no need due to the rifle not being in the running for NATO issue.
“When it comes to firearms, there’s a reason that Sig, Beretta, AL, CZ, FN, H&K, blah, blah are all supplying to the military and Kel-Tec ARE NOT.
Think about that.”
How about because they’ve no interest in doing so, or because they’re not presently producing stuff with an eye to the military market?
Or how about the FACT that price is an overriding factor in the military supply process – you surely didn’t think “fit for purpose” was the main guiding factor……….?
I don’t know what your MOS is/was but the Beretta is a bloody AWFUL side-arm with enough problems to rival those of the original L85……..
“You have light, flashes, bullets, objects, noise, dark, etc..I’ve seen guys miss with a rifle at 10 yards. Shotguns will improve your knock down 3-1 in a chaotic, home defense situation. Once you’ve experienced the CQC situation, you’ll know what I mean and how naive Ray and Bill are.”
I’m curious- have you ever pattern tested a shotgun? The longest shot possible in my house is 10 yards. At that range, my shotgun patterns cover roughly 3″. In all reality, there is no difference as far as ease of hitting the target with a 3 inch pattern or a single projectile. With a shotgun, you still need to aim, just the same as with a rifle. The only advantage of the shotgun is that it tends to be more capable of stopping an unarmored threat. Around here, the chances of a home invader having armor is pretty slim. In some areas with a heavy gang presence, they are starting to have reports of well equipped home invasion gangs that wear armor. If I was in one of those places, I would use a rifle for home defense.
“I agree, and I said as much, the .308 is a great deer round, not a great big round gun. Bill would be put in his place by the overwhelming amount of guides in Alaska. Hearing about the 300 meter shot is like hearing “leg” Infantry talk about there road marches with there 65 pound ruck’s…only to weight the ruck at 40lbs…get my drift H?? “The fish was this big”..LOL>”
Personally, I would say that the .308 is a bit bigger than you need for deer. .243 is about right for a dedicated deer gun. .308 on the other hand is a good multipurpose gun that will take deer without too much damage, and has dropped a lot of elk and moose with well placed shots. Many Alaskan guides carry heavier guns because of the threat of bears while hunting, but .308 should be able to take moose if the person behind the gun does their part.
As for 300 yards, that and much longer is done on a regular basis in practical rifle competitions, often using iron sited or red dot equipped rifles. Prior to WWI, the average British infantry soldier was capable of shooting the “mad minute”- using an iron sighted bolt action Enfield rifle, he could hit a target at a range of 300 yards 15 times in one minute, including any loading necessary. In other words, they could make an aimed, 300 yard shot, work the bolt, and be ready for the next shot, all in under 4 seconds. Many soldiers were capable of more than 15 shots. If you don’t think 300 yards with a .308 scoped weapon is possible, you are lost.
“Ray says you have to go to M1A1…come on Ray, how about the good ‘ole M-14 which is still used, effectively I might add, as a sniper rifle..that is a .308 my friend.”
News flash- the M1A is a civilian M14. If you go to Springfield armory and ask for an M14, they will gladly sell you an M1A, which will look, feel, and shoot like an M14. I never said that the M14/M1A is a bad gun, and in fact, I am a big fan of it. And I stand by my statement- the mini-14 and mini-30 are sized down versions of the M14/M1A, and if you want something similar to the mini-14 or mini-30 but in .308, the obvious choice is the M1A
As for why the various military don’t buy Keltec stuff, thats probably mostly to do with the fact that the kind of guns keltec makes aren’t in big demand with the military. For example, small backup guns aren’t really that in demand when backup gun is taken to mean a full size handgun. Neither Marlin nor DSA sell any guns to the military either, does that mean that their quality is lacking?
Ray, you only have a house 30 foot long? Dude, do you live on a boat? LOL..just kidding, Ray. BTW…no matter what BOR says, “Dude” is term used among friends out here on the left coast.
The Garand is legendary but the M-14 is a direct descendent of the M1. The new and improved son. In the form of the M21 or M25 it is still used in combat to this day.
I have an M-14 and would NEVER give it up.
Gentleman, lets get back on topic.
Anecdotal evidence is never accurate. A couple examples:
The jamming PA32 doesn’t mean Kel-Tec is junk. I have a P-11 that has over 6,000 rounds through it and it has never had any sort of a malfunction. That’s not an indicator of Kel-Tec as a brand either. It only means that his Kel-Tec jammed and mine doesn’t.
I have a friend who’s dad once had a .30-06 fail ti take down a deer. Both of them are lifelong hunters and excellant shots, but there are other variables such as proper bullet selection. Now they think the .30-06 is worthless on deer. I think we all know better. Anecdotal evidence at it’s finest.
If a company is judged by the occasional dud, then American cars must really be junk. You’d think after all these years they could get it right. Actually, I guess Ferrari would be junk too. They did make the Dino after all.
I had a Colt Targetsman that never worked right. I also had a Para Warthog that went back to Para so many times that I finally just gave up and got rid of it. That doesn’t mean that Colt and Para make junk guns. It just means that either the models I had were crappy, or that I got duds.
But to slam Kel-Tec because they don’t make anything for the military, while recommending Ruger, who doesn’t either, is just hypocritical.
If you don’t like Kel-tec, that’s fine. I own several of their products and have absolutely no complaints about them. They’re a good solid gun at a fair price point. I own a heckuva lot of other brands too, and they compare favorably with any of them.
What determines a guns quality is it’s engineering, materials and manufacturing. If it’s well designed and well executed, why does it matter who makes it? I don’t have my RFB yet, but I have high hopes for it. If it’s a dud, you can bet I’ll be yelling at the top of my lungs on all the boards, trying to make others aware before they waste their money. But if it’s a solid performer, you can bet I’ll be letting people know that too. I don’t care who makes it, only how it’s made.
You are kidding me, right? On one hand you have Kel-Tec who’s been around for 18 years and has done nothing but produce price point weapons and not one which has attained legendary status and then you have Bill Ruger…who is considered by many to be one of the greatest american firearm designers, ever. Browning, Colt, Ruger. His portfolio includes many legendary weapons to include the most popular .22 firearm pistol ever made, the Blackhawk revolver, the MK77…one of the best hunting rifles EVER made…on an on.
FYI..Ruger has produced more types of sporting firearms than any other firearms manufacturer in the world.
Getting back to the RFB…I can’t wait to see the reviews…make sure you shoot that thing like it’s a loaner, get that barrel red hot and see how those shot groups look, how the weapons functions, etc. Put every type of round through and really put it through it’s paces. Too many reviewers today are recieving heavily discounted or free weapons in return for positive reviews.
I hope it works out for you.
You must have a pretty big house if you think a 30′ inside shot is short.
Also, I’m not talking about the M1 Garand. M1A is another name for the M14. Search for “M1A” on Google, and you will find that today’s M1A is identical to the M14. You don’t need to explain to me the origions of the M14, I know the entire background of the M14 and it’s development through from the Garand, to the T20, T25, and T44. I am also very well aware of the most modern variants of the M14 in use today.
Anyways, now that that is cleared up, back to the issue at hand. I like the idea of bullpups, but to date, nobody seems to have built one without some sort of issue. The majority of bullpups eject out of the right side, making it impossible to fire from the left side. I expect all defensive guns to be ambidextrous, so I can’t see using a side ejecting bullpup. That narrows the field down to the FN FS2000, PS90, and Keltec RFB. I find the FS2000 to be particularly un-ergonomic and bulky, so I’m not inclined to try that. The PS90 shoots a round that is only slightly more powerful than a 22 rimfire, so it wouldn’t be my first choice for anything besides shooting rodents. The Keltec, as I have said before, seems to have no provision to allow you to view directly into the chamber without removing the magazine, and I don’t like that idea. Furthermore, the FS2000 and RFB uses a very complicated action which worries me a little. I could easily get over such worry if the gun proves to be reliable and durable however. If Keltec offered a flap door or some other means to easily check the chamber, I’d probably buy it, because it is everything else that I am looking for- compact size, what appears to be good ergonomics, and high power.
Ray, I stand corrected, you’re talking Springfield M1A1. M1 is so synonymous with the Garand I didn’t even think about the SA version of the M-14, you’re right. Fantastic weapon.
If you are really considering an FN take a look at the SCAR-H MK17 in cqc configuration.
Humor me, please don’t compare it to the Kel-Tec. Will someone break down the components, manufacturing process, metallurgy, etc. between the Kel-Tec and the FN BullPup..looks and range report or one thing but IMHO it just looks like another cheap Kel-Tec.
“If you are really considering an FN take a look at the SCAR-H MK17 in cqc configuration. “
The Scar with CQC barrel is a conventional rifle, and while it is as compact as the RFB, it owes it’s compactness to it’s 13″ barrel, which results in reduced ballistics, and the necessity for federal registration. In addition, we are talking about a gun that frequently sells for 5000-6000 dollars for a gun that is pretty similar to the various AR-10 variants or the DSA FAL. Personally, I’d rather have a 12.5″ barreled AR-10 type, or the 13″ DSA and $3000 in other guns and ammo than a SCAR with short barrel.
However, bullpup it is not, and that is what this article is about. As far as bullpups go, neither of FN’s entries are very suitable as a general purpose rifle in my opinion. The FS-2000 is uncomfortable and ungainly, and the PS-90 is chambered for too small of a round, and while it would make a good varmint gun or plinker, that’s about it. Keltec appears to have come the closest to what I want, if they would make it possible to check the chamber without removing the mag, I’d be all over it.
As far as Ruger vs Keltec, the point of this is to show that it is entirely possible for a company to produce high quality weapons, and not be selling them to the military.
And while you have had bad experiences with Keltec, many others have had very good experiences, and highly recommend them. Furthermore, I’d heard bad reviews on Ruger, Colt, HK, FN, Glock, Remington, Mossberg, Kimber, Sig, and pretty much every brand name out there. Just because there are a few bad reviews out there doesn’t mean that they are as bad as is claimed.
Ray, just pointing out some possible options to a compact weapon. The fact is that the FN has passed stringent military requirements and has been selected by several countries as their combat rifle..I’m speaking of the BullPup. I figure if SCAR is good enough for SF, it might be of some consideration to the civilian gun elite.
I agree that there are many high quality weapons not sold to the military, KEl-TEC is not one of them.
Go look on every Kel-Tec forum and you’ll see that it’s not uncommon to see a lot of recommendations on how to make your Kel-Tec work better. How to file this down or replace this part to cover some type of problem with the weapon. That’s a big red flag and it’s reflective of KT’s quality control. There is a big difference between 1-10000 firearms having issues vs. 1-100. Y
Normally this boils down to owner pride and no one wants to admit that they’ve made a bonehead choice, especially with weapons…too much macho ego at stake. They then tend to tolerate or ignore the flaws of the weapon.
I hear alot of people say that for the money, Kel-Tec is a great weapon..but what does that really mean? For the money? There’s an implied trade off, better price for less of what? Reliability, accuracy, durability, quality? To me no weapon is worth any price if any of these attributes are comprimised.
I am not comfortable endorsing a weapon made from an 18 year old company with no legacy weapons whatsoever; and with a long history of price point models that have been released to the public with more than their share of bugs.
We all have different standards when it comes to firearms, I’m just afraid Kel-Tec doesn not meet mine.
I look forward to honest reviews of the SBR…if you can prove to me that this weapon can endure combat like testing and reliability and that it has no bugs…SIG SAUER quality…then I’ll consider buying one for my kid.
I think the draw to the SBR is the supercial asthetics and a lot of people are ignoring the quality factor of the components and metallurgy.
bfree
I’ll have to takr you to task for this:
“You are kidding me, right? On one hand you have Kel-Tec who’s been around for 18 years and has done nothing but produce price point weapons and not one which has attained legendary status and then you have Bill Ruger…who is considered by many to be one of the greatest american firearm designers, ever. Browning, Colt, Ruger. His portfolio includes many legendary weapons to include the most popular .22 firearm pistol ever made, the Blackhawk revolver, the MK77…one of the best hunting rifles EVER made…on an on.”
In one breath you slam Kel-Tec for producing “price point” firearms, whilst complaining previously about the EXPENSIVENESS of the RFB.
As for the M77 – not MK77 – I’ve had more than a few through my hands with problems – even the MkII’s & including some critical safety issues.
The trigger pull can best be described as “robust”……
I think you’ll find that there have been far more 1911’s & Hi-Powers made than Blackhawks of ANY iteration.
Go look on ANY firearm forum & you’ll find people with issues & people with a desire to improve what they have, whether it’s an AR15 or a Webley-Fosberry. That doesn’t mean there’s anything desperately wrong with that maker’s firearms – merely that all mechanical constructs can & do have problems.
I’ve shot pretty much everything from the SMLE to the Barret 82, with M60’s the L7A2 & most modern military small arms in between & I’m telling you that the RFB is built to a high standard – no, NOT that”High Standard”…….;-) – & IMO will prove to be a classic firearm.
PS Don’t tell me about Sig quality – I had the misfortune to while away the hours with a thoroughly recalcitrant 556 at one point
with any gun there is are trade offs. Not even the most expensive guns are perfect. They all have faults.
“Ray, just pointing out some possible options to a compact weapon. The fact is that the FN has passed stringent military requirements and has been selected by several countries as their combat rifle..I’m speaking of the BullPup. I figure if SCAR is good enough for SF, it might be of some consideration to the civilian gun elite.”
Quite frankly, you haven’t scratched the surface when it comes to compact weapons that are available with an SBR stamp. The SCAR is apparently a good gun, but there are also many other good guns that don’t cost nearly as much, and have much more real world testing. In all reality, you are basing your praise of the SCAR on about as much real world testing as has been seen by the RFB that you speak so bad of.
Also, while I am sure that the FS-2000 is a good gun, I don’t like the ergonomics, so it doesn’t matter how good of a gun it is, I’m not buying it.
“I think the draw to the SBR is the supercial asthetics and a lot of people are ignoring the quality factor of the components and metallurgy.”
Are they ignoring them, or are they just not there? So far, all it seems that you are basing these claims on is that your buddy had a few jambs in a pistol built by keltec, and most of their stuff doesn’t cost enough.
Oh, and by the way, the RFB is not an SBR, that’s one of the main advantages of it.
Bil…too expensive “for a Kel-Tec”. Bill, also, please ease up on the bayoneting the Argy in the groin comments. You’re breaking the honor code. There’s nothing about combat worth boasting about.
Good luck with your “Kel-Tec” and make sure you post honest reviews for all fo us to see. I’m anxious to hear the range reviews after giving the weapon a good work out.
My 12 year old thinks it looks “really cool”.
bfree,
If for example you pointed at specific components and concerns like Ray did about being able to view into the chamber, I wouldn’t be typing this.
Less one reason, I don’t understand why you have posted here.
You’ve posted negative remarks on a product you have never seen and apparently not read a review on (private owners have, find it yourself).
Gone off topic to recommend products that are not similar, less being a firearm.
You start to sound reasonable then toss in a mock/jab, which leads me to the reason of your posting, even if you don’t believe it.
Your a troll.
I apologize to the others for being the first to feed him. It happens, we get lead in and got defensive over his contempt.
I suggest bfree you find a thread you can be constructive in and not a thorn.
There is no point in responding to bfree as he is not contributing to the topic, just let it go, it’s him, not us.
- don’t make me pull the Internet over
-
I think everyone had had their say. From now on non-topic comments will be removed.
Wow, the rifle on show has what appears to be a fluted stainless steel barrel.
Pros:
1) Good cartridge which has one of the best versatility ranges of any ammo readily available.
2) Interchangable ammo type with a matching bolt gun.
3) Light, compact and out of the way if needed.
4) Left or right hand shooting for clearing corners, great option for left handers.
5) KelTec has a lifetime warranty on all of their firearms and will fix it now or years from now if needed.
6) Avid close community who know the guns better than KelTec in some cases.
Cons:
1) Strong kick which will cause minute of flinch accuracy problems for smaller people.
2) All classic training done for current firearms does not apply to this configuration and can cause some discomfort on safety.
3) Looks and cartridge can confuse people on its purpose and can lead to a let down if purposed incorrectly.
When you start looking at a semi auto in the U.S. you start around $1,000 and then work your way down to the $500’s and up to the $2,000.
If you are fine with 223 then you have many options and configurations to cover a wide array of conditions. You are limiting yourself balistically with this choice but everything else is far more open.
In 308 you have few options for left handed folks, few options for lighter weight, few options for semi auto and few options in carbines.
The thought appears to be that if you are going to go 308 then you are using that round for an expected list of things (long range, game hunting, etc.).
In my case this rifle fits a niche that I cannot currently fill. I am looking at a 3 gun set outside of my hunting gear.
A long range sub MOA rifle, a matching semi auto rifle and a 22 pistol.
The long range rifle is meant for everything outside of self defense. The semi is meant to help in carrying 1 kind of ammo and for self defense in general. The .22 is for ‘quantity’ ammo carrying and as a primary small game getter with low noise output.
If I were to pack all 3 (me being strong and used to larger weights) the long range rifle would be slung, the semi would be packed and the .22 would be in a holster.
To date, I could not match a rifle to the semi, keep the size and weight reasonable and have them in a caliber that was common and versatile.
308 is the right caliber in my opinion. I have no desire to get into a protracted firefight with anyone. I would not carry more than 100 rounds in 308 since it is only to,
1) Shoot big game.
2) Shoot 2 legged game.
Since this would be rare for me in most cases both rifles would be used sparingly. This is also for basic trips and not for ’survival mode’ where you start putting your goods underground and wearing tin foil helmets.
The .22 allows for me to carry 1000 rounds without much worry, most likely 500 at the most. This is the main ’survival’ item and would be used to harvest most game if needed.
With all this written down, and sorry for the length, my goal is maybe the same as some and different than others.
The RFB fills a void which there is currently not a viable option without giving up something else or adding something I do not need.
I agree that the RFB fills a niche for many of us that nothing else fills. For me, it’s the mid length model. About the same length and weight as my AK, but with a longer barrel than my STG-58. I’m not sure I like the ejection system of the RFB but I haven’t had the chance to try it out yet to see. I don’t like to make judgements without adequate information.
I have a 9mm bullpup so I have an idea of how well they handle. It’s my favorite plinker. While I admire the shortness of the 18 inch model, you couldn’t give me a short barrelled anything. I don’t ride around in Humvs and tanks.
I wish 223 fit my requirements better. There are definately a lot of nice guns to choose from. The lighter weight, reduced recoil and ability to carry more ammo is a strong incentive. But I have guns in both calibers and I feel the .308 meets my needs better.
Right now my biggest question is accuracy of the RFB. I don’t expect it to be a target rifle, but I hope it will be accurate enough to use at long range. Especially considering that it’ll be dependant on optical sights for the most part.
Note to Jida: Before you commit to packing that much weight around, please read this article about backpacking with guns. It’s written by someone with a lot of experience at it and is very thought provoking. It changed my mind on several things.
http://www.tacticalgearreview.com/wordpress/2006/07/the-backpack-survivalist-by-mike-rostov-2
My appologies to the mods if posting links is forbidden. You’ll get no complaints from me if you need to delete the link or entire post. Thanks.
Nice article and I agree with his assessment.
Although I do not want to derail the conversation at all, the MKIII is the pistol I am picking up and I am going the extra step to teflon coat it.
“Big Gun/Little Pistol” and “Big Pistol/Little Gun” is the mantra I follow.
The way I figure it, if I have to fight something big enough that .22 does not cut it I want to power and range of a rifle.
Ammo is fairly compatible in size/weight to large hand guns in the greater scheme of things.
This is where the RFB fits in really well. It is compact and lightweight. Easily stored and carried and if needed it will perform as a battle rifle or to take game that is too big for the .22.
I am in Northern CA and my options for bugouts is slimmer than most. If I take off in any direction I am going to find good spots every 10 miles but a lot of nothing inbetween.
For the RFB it would end up in the pack 99% of the time until I find a base I like and want to hold it.
Then it would stay out and with me most of the time.
I have thought of the matching pistol to rifle combination however there are drawbacks to this solution which mainly come from the rifle selections. I have yet to see a really good ’survival’ style .357 rifle.
The thought was to get one and take it through the ringer for survival and then match it to a pistol.
Issues being that .357 is not a good small game round, definately not good for birds, decent all around for medium to large game and ok on larger than that.
As per the article, the odds of you needing and using the larger gun is slim compared to snares, .22’s, traps, fishing, etc.
The larger gun should be compact and ready to go and your secondary weapon should be lighter and used more often.
.22 is the choice for this.
For the larger gun you have tons of choices but for this left hander the RFB in .308 is just about written for me compared to almost everything else out there.
Granted, I could do just fine with my .30-30, my shotgun, my pointed stick with a mean face written on it, etc.
You do not need the RFB to survive in any stectch of the imagination.
If you are in that niche like me though it is very appealing and even if you are not you have to admit that it does some things that other firearms simply can’t.
http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2009/05/28/an-interview-with-matt-at-kel-tec-on-the-rfb/
Great Q & A with Matt from Kel-Tec R&D
Just about anything you could ask is answered!
Mahhn,
Thanks for the link. That’s an informative thread. I especially appreciated the info on the RFB’s accuracy and trigger. Every bullpup I have fired or handled had a horrid trigger. Looks like the RFB will not only be more accurate than I had thought, but have a sweet trigger too! This is turning out more and more to be exactly what I was looking for in a rifle.
Now if only gun show sales would pick up, so I can afford the 24 inch model when it comes out!
The results on a model that is just over legal is what I am waiting for as well.
If a model is offered where the overall length is legal and the accuracy is MOA or better then 1 rifle may be the only thing you need.
Especially if you keep the package to an overall small form factor and you carrry (or install) a pair of backup irons.
It will be at least a year till yo will be able to find one of these and see it in a gun rack ready for you to take a look at it.
Before then it is all order+pray it is right for you.
As a survival style firearm it may have no equal for all that it can do if it performs as well as reports are saying it is.
I would like to have one to test in a real world mountain run and see how it would act in that capacity.
I just purchased my RFB Monday. I have to say, I was more than impressed by this weapon. It’s a little heavier than an M4 carbine (by about a pound or 2) but it’s a little shorter. It is extremely well balanced, loaded or unloaded. The fit & finish is as good if not better than any new weapon I ever handled in 20 yrs of Army service. It had no sights included, so I bought a set of MagPul pop-up iron sights (I’ll probably add an EOTech later). It included 1 20 rd FN mag, sling & attachments, & the instruction manual.
I had to try it out that day, so I loaded up 20 rds of LC 76 ball (had a little trouble after rd 15, but a mag slap & the rest went in easy) & headed out to a safe area (empty stock pond on my place). I didn’t take any tools with me, as I was most interested in handling & recoil at this point. Set up target at about 25 yards. Did not pre-lube the weapon, fired it as it came out of the box. First 5 rounds out, no problem, then came failure to feed. Charged, fired 1 round, failure to feed. Pulled magazine, the rounds were about 1/4″ below feedlip & rolling loose. Follower was hung up. Did a mag slap, reinserted mag, charged & fired all remaining rounds, no problem (I’ll take the mag apart later to see what was the hold-up).
Recoil was a bit more than an M4, but a little less than a 30-30. Recoiled mostly straight back, only climbed about 1/2″ at muzzle. Re-aquiring was easy. Can’t comment on accuracy yet, range was short & I didn’t boresite the sites. I was on for deflection, but firing way too high. Impacts seemed consistant. Spent rounds ended up in a fairly neat little pile in front of my firing point. I only managed to loose 2, somewhere in the deep cracks in the dried up pond floor.
Disassembly can be done with just a complete 7.62 rd, as can the gas adjustment (using rim).
BTW, I have a KelTec P40 I carry as my concealed weapon. It is a competant pistol that has never failed me (fortunately, I haven’t had to use it in defense, just in practice). I haven’t been as impressed with KelTec rifles, until now. The RFB is a much beefier tank compared to the other long guns they make.
From what I’ve seen so far, I would not hesitate to take this rifle into battle.
I’ll update as I work with it more, if anyone’s interested.
Mahnn..for God’s sake, it’s a KEL-TEC. Didn’t I read one of your previous posts where you had bought Camaro and you were planning on running it in F1. LMAO.
Herbstine et. al…this just shows you a typical experience with a Kel-Tec…misfire, first round, brand new weapon. The problem is that after people purchase a firearm they will ignore and tolerate issues that they would never find acceptable before purchasing the weapon.
Good luck with that Kel-Tec.
bfree
You can’t give up can you?
ALL the reports I’ve seen on the RFB have been favourable – from those who’ve actually used one.
So why should your uninformed & subjective bias against Kel-Tec mean anything?
Oh, it doesn’t.
So bfree, you see a couple of failures to feed (NOT misfires) as an issue when herbstine himself mentioned NO lubrication AND that the problem appeared to be the follower in the FAL magazine?
In the past I’ve seen similar issues with new firearms from Colt, DSA, FN, Kimber, CZ., etc……..
….a couple of drops of lube in the right place & some rounds down range to bed in the action & they’ve been fine, or have you never noticed that guns smooth out after initial use?
Give credit where it’s due & by ALL accounts it’s owed to Kel-Tec for the RFB
Malfunction on first round??? I guess we all have our own standards of “favorable”. I’m just glad I’m making my own weapon’s choices.
Bill, it’s no use..like the Camaro analogy, it’s no use telling you the Camaro just isn’t an Indy Car, even if you think it is. Good luck with that “Kel-Tec”. LMAO
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bfreeon 30 Jul 2009 at 11:56 am link comment
Malfunction on first round??? I guess we all have our own standards of “favorable”. I’m just glad I’m making my own weapon’s choices.
You can’t even get that right.
It was the 5th round & MAGAZINE related rather than the rifle…..
Your lack of ability to even get this right shows your irrational bias.
Car analogies have no bearing on this subject: The Kel-Tec RFB has received favourable reports from all & sundry, up to & including a comparison with current military firearms.
Tell me: Have you even SEEN the RFB for real, never mind handling or firing it?
At the beginning of October I’ll get some real time comparison in between the RFB, Steyr-Aug, FN F2000, L85A2 & TAR-21 & that’s just the bullpups. Now what they look like but how they handle & shoot.
When I get back to the UK afterwards, I might just let you know how they do – without any unsubstantiated & preconceived bias based on completely different products………
herbstineon,
Congratulations! and thanks for the mini review. We’ll be looking forward to your updates.
Bfree, I don’t know what your issue is. I hate Glocks with a bloody passion, but I don’t go around trying to keep people from buying them or harrassing those who do. And if you had actually READ what Herbstine had written, he FIRED the first round and had a failure to feed because of the magazine. I own FALs and the mags can be a pain if they’re not clean and lubed. How can you fault a gun because it’s magazine failed?
I forgot, you have such deep issues with the brand that logic no longer applies. Hang in there, keep slinging insults all you want. But where will you be when/if the positive reports start flowing in? Apologetic? Feel like a fool for previous comments? Nah, you’ll just fade away into the anonymity of the internet like so many flamers before you. Show some sense and wait till the reports start flowing in. Then if they’re negative, jump out with a giant “I TOLD YOU SO!”. All your doing now is setting yourself up to receive a bunch of them. I realize that you WANT the RFB to be junk, but isn’t it better to wait and see if it is before slinging mud?
bfree, you have made you point.
The bickering needs to end. No more discussion about reliability.
Well, I took it out to Astro’s Range Saturday. Used an in-muzzle laser to pre-set the sights. Fired 10 rds, 2 groups of 5, benched 25yds. Only 3 hits on paper. Deflection seemed consistant, but elevation was all over. I believe the site radius available on the rail is entirely too short for the Magpul flip ups. The front sight looks as thick as an oak tree, and the rear apperture is like a living room window! I have an EoTech 512 on order.
But no malfunctions this time. Took the mag apart last week. No dirt, no rust, no noticeable deformities. Wiped it out & light lube with Rem-Oil. Loaded & fed with no problems.
EoTech 512 came in Fri. Mounted & used laser to initial set-up. Went to range Sat. EoTech did the trick! 25 yd, 6″ tgt. Fired 50 rds in 5 rd groups. All rds in each group within 2″ area. Only 1 malfunction, rd 4 in 2nd mag hung on mag lip. Dropped mag, cleared & put rd back in mag, charged & continued firing. No further malfs. Now to work on the 5X adapter I bought for the EoTech!
Sounds like you might have some problematic mags. I’ve ran into those for my FAL in the past. I just ended up tossing the bad mags since they were dirt cheap at the time. Maybe try mags from another source.
Right now, the only mag I’m using is the one provided with the rifle. I bought 12 from SG earlier in anticipation of getting an RFB. (Now all I have to do is remember where I put them!)
I have a question about the RFB. Can I replace the trigger assembly with one that has a winter trigger and safety? I personally prefer this type because it physically puts something in the way of the trigger and I think it is safer. Also, the only rifles that I have found (a few of these rifles are in the gun shops where I live) are only the 18 inch variety. I want the target variant. Can I replace the 18 inch barrel with a new M1/14 barrel?
It’s not an M1/M14. Parts aren’t interchangeable. I haven’t seen them mention a winter trigger option.
Gentlemen, please, enough Kel-Tec bashing. Focus on the rifle not the company.
What I’ve read tells me that the longer barrel versions will be out later, relaease date not yet revealed. You can also replace the 18″ barrel with the 24″ & 28″ barrels, but it requires a gunsmith with a well equipped shop. I’d wait for the long barrel version, if that was what I wanted in this weapon. The trigger guard is a molded part of the pistol grip assembly. I haven’t heard of any variants to be made. I think this would preclude any winter assembly.
Damnn this thing looks nice, unfortunately I don’t quite have the cash yet.
Is anyone aware of if I can obtain this in Canada?
Thanks
I wanna know that too. Is it legal in Canada? I’m pretty sure at least the 20 round magazine isn’t…