Kel-Tec RFB 7.62mm bullpup rifle

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Kel-Tec displayed their new RFB 7.62x51mm (.308) bullpup rifle at SHOT Show. SMGLee took some great photos.

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With suppressor, nice!

Wikipedia has this to say about the rifle:

The Kel-Tec RFB High Efficiency Rifle (Rifle, Forward-ejection, Bullpup) is a gas-operated semi-automatic rifle with a tilting breechblock locking mechanism, manufactured by Kel-Tec Industries of Florida. It loads the 7.62x51mm NATO (.308 Winchester) cartridge and uses metric FAL magazines. The rifle uses a patented forward-ejection system via a tube placed over the barrel that ejects the spent case forwards, over the handguard of the rifle.

The rifle is a forward ejecting semi-automatic firearm chambered in 7.62 mm NATO (.308 Winchester), utilizing a short-stroke gas piston. To avoid the sloppy trigger pull typical of bullpup style firearms, the RFB utilizes a floating linkage bar between the sear and the hammer, allowing the sear to remain above the trigger. The weapon is fully ambidextrous, much in the style of the French FAMAS bullpup assault rifle. The RFB accepts FN FAL style magazines, and is delivered without iron sights. A mil-spec Picatinny rail is standard.

Here is a video of the rifle, clearly showing the forward ejection.

Kel-Tec plans to offer three different four versions each with a different barrel length:

  • Carbine (18″),
  • Sporter (24″),
  • Target (32″ heavy barrel, or 26″ stainless steel barrel)

The rifle is expected this quarter (1st quarter 2008) in the forth quarter, see the comments by dogon1013.

More images after the jump.

Click to enlarge the images.

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Steve Johnson

Founder and Dictator-In-Chief of TFB. A passionate gun owner, a shooting enthusiast and totally tacti-uncool. Favorite first date location: any gun range. Steve can be contacted here.


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  • http://www.hellinahandbasket.net James R. Rummel

    I heard they were going to retail these for a couple of grand.

    Might as well get an AR for that.

    James

  • dogon1013

    Sorry,

    But the official word is that the release is being pushed back to 4th quarter this year. (from 2008 SHOT show info).

  • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

    dogon1013on, thanks for the info, I have updated the article. Thats a pity :(

  • Peter

    Yeah, that’s too bad about the delay. I totally want one of these critters!

  • http://cmblake6.wordpress.com cmblake6

    BTW, 7.62×51. The x53 was the Belgian/Argentine equivalent. I’m a retired military weapons instructor, in case you want my credentials. Not slamming you, just want to catch you before you look bad. Just trying to help.

  • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

    Thank scmblake6! That was a typo. I wrote most of that post late at night :) Please feel free to correct my mistakes.

  • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

    Hi James, thanks for the info. Even if it is pricey, it is very cool!

  • R3unbreakable

    the forward ejection system looks like it could jam if the gun used burst or auto, and the recoil looks high. i mean, thats never going to be fielded methinks

  • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

    Yes, I also wondered about that forward ejection.

  • Rman

    I shot a lot of weapons in the military and would choose maybe a handful to take into a hot situation. Thats the point of having an “assault” rifle right? I own several and they’re either an Ak style or AR style because they are simple to use, always work, and are comfortable. I would really need to fire it myself. It seemed like those guys in the video were having trouble keeping it steady. Now if it were 5.56 id take a closer look. Also, does anyone think that the casings might fall in front of the barrel during operation?

  • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

    I don’t know. They could easily direct the brass to fly out at a slight angle.

  • http://cmblake6.wordpress.com cmblake6

    The forward eject MAY have some uses/benefits, but other than making the rifle ambidextrous I can’t see it. Firing level or downhill, fine. Uphill or clearing stairwells, etc, can you say potential for jamming is just too high?

  • Dan

    Great, unsafe behavior propagated on the net. How nice.

    If anyone knows who those guys are tell them to keep their finger off the **** trigger when their sights are not on the target. No, hovering slightly off the trigger is not ‘off the trigger’. Completely out of the trigger guard and pressed against something else is ‘off the trigger’.

    For everyone else, before you start posting movies of yourself shooting guns on the net please learn how to shoot safely.

  • Pete

    After you fire the last round in your mag and the bolt-hold-open device holds your bolt open, THERE IS STILL AN EMPTY ROUND SUSPENDED IN THE RECEIVER!
    It somehow seems untidy engineering.
    I just think forward ejection is not the final answer to th bullpup ejection problem Downward ejection is the answer, as in the FN P90.
    Of course the problem with downward ejection is you need the mag on top. And it sticks up right beside your face. FN solved the problem in the P90 by stacking the rounds horizontally and rotating them during feeding. Calico arms solved the problem with a helical (spiral) feed.
    Maybe the P90 solution could extended to bigger rounds, but you would need a perfectly cylindrical body on the case same as the 5.7 X 28.
    I wonder if a straight Bren-gun-type mag sticking up in the air on a bullpup might be acceptable, if it were positioned a bit further back. This would require a design with a very short bolt, even a telescoping bolt.

    Maybe the Robinson Arms M96 top-feed could be adapted.

  • drew

    dan, the rule has always been finger on the triger only when pointed in a safe direction. the gun is always pointed downrange in the video and when angled slightly up for reloading the finger was clearly off the triger and the bolt was locked back.

    quit being overly critical of peoples gun handeling. at no point in this video was anything unsafe done. i agree that guns should be handled very carefully, but being a nazi is unnecessary.

  • Atool

    Mmmm, methinks this gun has potential. There seem to quite a few design issues though none of which can’t be solved. Personally i’d prefer a assault rifle to have less recoil, there has to be some way to use spent casing work against muzzle climb. this gun would make hell of a cool bull pup sniper style rifle. “THE GAMER GUN NUT”

  • http://360.yahoo.com/lana_sands Tiger

    Hmmmmmm….. Santa I’d like this for Xmas! The pros of a lightweight bullpup, firing 7.62 NATO in a package the size of a M-4 is great. I’ve been considering buying a FN Fs-2000 rifle for a while now. It however is in 5.56mm and goes for $2000. If kel Tec can sell this for a bit less they have a winner.

  • http://cmblake6.wordpress.com cmblake6

    Well, I’ve watched the video a number of times. Gun SEEMS to work just fine. If I had the money, I’d probably get one. I’d still like to see a bottom ejection, but that would be difficult. It’s been tested, it obviously works, but I’ve just got this nagging whisper in the back of my head about working upwards for clearing stairwells and such. Can’t help it.

  • http://shootingsportsblog.com/bulletboy/kel-tec-rfb-308/ Bullet Boy

    On my gun wish list. Check out the feature article in Special Weapons August September 2008 issue.

  • http://cmblake6.wordpress.com cmblake6

    Just wish the stupid thing didn’t cost so flaming much. I’d absolutely LOVE to have one, but my bank account precludes that.

  • nick

    i don’t know about that forward ejection, i am assuming this rifle is intended for military applications, and something like that looks like a jam waiting to happen. i would imagine that any bump on the tube or debris would block the rounds, backing up the whole system and causing a long delay, since you wouldn’t know you had a jam for about 3 rounds, and then you would jam and have to deal with 3 stuck casings in the ejection tube.

  • Kevin Barriger

    If you will help I have a ? for you. Does Kel-Tec mannufacture a RFB model in .223? If so, please send details.

  • joey clamato

    “i would imagine that any bump on the tube or debris would block the rounds, backing up the whole system and causing a long delay, since you wouldn’t know you had a jam for about 3 rounds, and then you would jam and have to deal with 3 stuck casings in the ejection tube.”

    Well, any debris large enough to cause that kind of problem is probably going to screw with any weapon. There is a small ramp (spring loaded) in the tube that prevents spent brass from falling back into the ejection area of the receiver.

    The main threat will come from crappy brass that blows up and gets stuck in the chamber. Shoot cheap ammo at your own risk.

    I’ve seen video of the gun with the action/ejection area cut away in operation. If anything, the rifle is less prone to some types of ejection problems (such as stove piping) than a standard ejector that grabs the rim and flings the brass. The brass is pushed forward at the same time that a fresh round is chambered. If you have several casings in the tube and fire straight up it should work fine. As for brass being flung in front of the barrel, that won’t happen either unless you were shooting down, conceivably, but that is a risk with any other rifle, too. Sure the p90 is neat-o, but you don’t want to dip that thing in the mud and pray that its going to work. That is almost a Rube Goldberg solution and I wouldn’t want to carry it in the field.

  • joey clamato

    also, this is a .308. That’s not typically a caliber you want to fire full auto or auto burst…

  • Raymond

    For those that said that it recoils to much for an assault rifle, that’s because it isn’t an assault rifle. It is an extremely compact battle rifle, firing a full size rifle round. Picture a M1A with an overall length of 27 inches, and that is what this gun is designed to accomplish. Also, if the recoil is to much, add some weight. It’s a 7 pound gun firing .308, which is several pounds less than an M1A, FAL, or AR-10. Also, this gun, with the 18″ barrel, is a couple inches shorter than an FAL para model with a 16″ barrel and the stock folded. The main thing that worries me about this gun is that it doesn’t appear that it is very easy to look directly into the chamber to check that it is unloaded. the FS-2000 has a little flip up door that lets you look into the chamber, but from the sound of it, you would have to flip the RFB over and look in the mag well to see the chamber.

    Kel-tec has stated that the RFB was first chambered in .308 because it is easier to take an existing design and make it smaller, than the other way around. In other words, it was easier to design it to fit 308 first, and then size it down to 6.8 spc, 6.5 Grendel, 7.62×39, 5.56×45, 5.45×39, ect. Wait a few years and there should be RFBs chambered in all the popular intermediate rounds.

    MSRP has been announced at $1800, and at first, they are expected to sell at least that high. If it turns out that it is easy to view the chamber, I will probably buy one of these after the price drops down a couple hundred under the MSRP.

  • John

    I have a FN FS2000 which also has forward ejection. I’ve shot nearly 1000 rounds through it so far and have not had any problems with the ejection except at first because there was too much oil in the gun from the factory. And firing upwards is no problem because there is a catch to prevent the shells from going back into the chamber. The system works really well and is being used by special forces in several countries already.

  • http://cmblake6.wordpress.com cmblake6

    It really is sharp. If the price ever goes down, and if we can even own guns anymore after 1/20/09, I’m really going to want one in x39 I think.

  • Steve

    anyone shot this yet? Id love to get a Tavor, but this is .308! Need data on accuracy of this interesting little piece.

  • Derrick

    I am curently employed at KelTec CNC in Cocoa Florida and I have putba few a rounds (3clips) through the same gun in the video. The first shooter is George Kelgren who is the president and chief engineer or the company. The NATO round through this gun makes for a shooting expirence like non I have ever been through. Mr. Kelgren has seemingly perfected the RFB’s design and it is worth every penny. And just for the record 7.62 NATO and 308 Win. Are different rounds the actual physical sizes are the same but the inner chambers are not the 308 Win is actualy a hotter shooting round with a chamber pressurenof 62000psi compared to the NATO 7.62 wich is around 50000psi shooting a NATO round from a firearm chambered for 308 is fine but the extra 3000 psi in a NATO chambered gun can prove to be a pqinfull combo. Check out this article for more info http://www.thegunzone.com/30cal.html

  • Krun

    My concern is what would happen durring a misfire. Would the RFB be able to clear the chamber in a resonable period of time? Does the faulty round have enough clearance to be ejected normally with a rack of the charger, or is a removal of the magazine required?

  • http://cmblake6.wordpress.com cmblake6

    So Derrick, we may but rest assured that the company has incorporated way beyond required strength into the machinery. IMHO, the only reason for suing a gun company would be for not realizing there are going to be people out there who will test the limits. Especially in the 5.56/.223, 7.62×51/.308 veins. Build to go heavy, no worries at all with light. For example, before I started using my ’93 Mauser in x51, I researched just how hot those suckers had been tested to when adopted. .308 doesn’t get anywhere near where those have been tested far beyond.

  • http://cmblake6.wordpress.com cmblake6

    Actually, I mis-stated my opinion. I don’t see suing a gun company FOR that. The only reason valid would be if they knowingly made a cheap pos that was damn near guaranteed to blow up. THEN sue. But for safeties sake, I’m quite assured I could count on anything KelTec.

  • Derrick

    I was at the SHOT show booth this weekend in Orlando I gave so many presentations on the RFB but at the end of the day everyone was satisfied and they are ready to except them in then world of high performance rifles. Thank you to every one for you kind words and support.

  • Raymond

    since it seems that there are some kel-tec engineers on here, maybe they can answer my question. Is there any way to directly view the chamber without removing the magazine and flipping the gun over?

  • Seigi

    I have a question too: can I put a 5 round FAL mag in this gun? The website says 10 or 20 but I’d like to confirm. I ask because I’d like to hunt with one and a 10 round with space permanently reduced to 5 is extra bulk I’d just as soon pass on.

    Anything wrong with one of these, specifically?
    http://www.dsarms.com/FAL-Metric-5-Round-Steel-Hunting-Mag/productinfo/1175/

    Also, is there any ETA on the adjustable triggers or target barrels?

    Thanks in advance.

  • http://www.merwinhulbertco.com Mike

    Derrick,

    I think I talked to you towards the end of the show as I was the fellow from M&H. I’m still thinking about the manufacturing plans. I’d really like to see if we can do something to enhance them. Shoot me an email when you have a moment.

    Thanks

    Mike

  • nick

    in the video they have to hold the gun upward to put the next clip in right? well why didnt it jam? there is obveiously a safty of somesort like in a paintball gun that hold the shell casings in the top rail. watch it wen they reload the casing fall back to the reciver but none fall in

  • nick

    look at in the video 1:13 and watch him reload

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

      nick, I am sure there is a mechanism to prevent the brass falling backwards.

  • nick

    well i was reading the blog and realized that the topic from the brass falling backwards just never got answered so i went ahead and did that lol
    how much is this thing gunna cost anyway

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

      MSRP: $1880.00

  • a

    Wow, $1189.66? How can that be?

  • Plink

    Well, Kel-Tec said the RFB would be available toward the end of February. I’ve been looking around and haven’t seen any indication that it’s on the market yet. Anyone have any input on this? I’m ready to buy as soon as I can find one.

    As for the rifle’s recoil. It looks to be a kicker alright. There are highly effective muzzle brakes (yes it’s muzzle BRAKE, not break) out there. I’m sure they’d reduce the recoil quite a bit. But realize that any gun this light is going to kick when firing a 7.62×51. Also, the rearward weight bias of bullpup designs doesn’t help stability any during recoil. Notice though, that there was very little muzzle flip!

  • Eric

    They are out there now… one is posted on Gunbroker.com and another on GunsAmerica.com. I’ve ordered one from 3 dealers and so far none of them have found me one yet.

  • Me

    Why would you order the same rifle from three different dealers? Are you going to buy three?

  • Me

    This rifle’s design isn’t conducive to mild recoil. No big spring in the stock to soften the blow like on an AR and it’s happening RIGHT in front of your shoulder.

    I’m curious to see how it shoots, and, while I’d like to have one, I will probably wait until some reviews are out before committing. The free float front end is great and all,….but with everything else attached to the barrel it may be a mute point.

    Curious.

  • Garry

    I’d like to see the “target” version in action at say 1000 yds. And what about the target these guys were shooting at. Its a cool looking rifle, but can it hit the broad side of a barn at 200 yds?

  • Aviator 64

    Me,

    The buffer spring in the stock of an AR is not there to reduce recoil. It is there to allow the bolt to retract and eject the round and then return it to a closed position. The RFB has springs that do the same thing, there just not in the stock. Both actions absorb a small potion of the recoil as opposed to a bolt/pump/lever action where the action dosen’t absorb any of the recoil. The difference in recoil between a typical AR and the RFB is mainly do to the fact that most AR shoot .223/5.56 which produce substantially less recoil than a .308/7.62 round. The weight of the weapon also affects recoil. The heavier the weapon, the less recoil. One thing I did notice from videos of the RFB being fired is that there appears to be minimal muzzel climb, which is a good thing.

  • Mahhn

    I wrote Kel Tec last week about availability, they said 6 to 9 months (I’m hoping that’s exaggerating to make me feel good when it comes in early)
    I went ahead and placed my order with my local dealer for the carbine version.

    For me it fits the bill as a single gun for home defense and a hunting.
    Previously I was looking at an AR 15, but it’s a bit long for home and underpowered for large game. Also my brother is a lefty and we can share the RFB.

    Tool less breakdown
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4K_PPe5Rnk

    Price at :53 seconds into video $1,189.66
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgHRzakGAUY

    Some may think the price is high, but for the configuration I was looking at in a quality custom build of an AR (less sights), it’s the same, with more function.
    I just hope it’s actually solid (done and right) when I get it.

  • Plink

    I hope they get them out before the ban! Especially in large enough numbers that we can all get one. I know they said they’re going to release the carbine version first. It’s going to be hard to hold out for the mid length version, but that’s the one I’m after.

    As for the $1,186 price, that was the price RSR had listed at the SHOT Show. They’re a wholesale distributor only. Kel-Tec is listing them at $1899 suggested retail if I remember right, which means that there’s no way that it will wholesale for $1,186, especially from RSR which is the highest priced wholesaler that I’ve ever dealt with. I’m curious what actual street price will be on them. I’m guessing over $2,000 for a while. Until supply starts catching up with demand.

    I just went to RSR’s site to see if they had them listed. Sometimes they will list things that they don’t have yet, to generate pre-orders. Nothing. Oddly enough, they didn’t even have any Kel-Tec guns, just magazines and accessories.

  • Aviator 64

    I think the 24″ barrel is a perfect for this rifle. Barrel length is equla to a M-24 and weapon length is equal to an M4 Carbine.

    You can pre-order one from Impact uns for $1800. First guns to hit the market are being auctioned off for close to $3000

    I think I will wait a bit for the madness to subside.

    I’m a left BTW and I love the front ejection.

  • Eric

    I have 3 on order to improve my chances of getting one. No one required me to put money down since they said they would have no problem getting rid of it if I changed my mind. I may actually purchase 2 if the opportunity should arise. RSR does have the rifle listed on their site, item #KTRFB18. Supposedly they only have two employees assembling them right now but they are in the process of installing two assembly lines so production should ramp up soon hopefully.

  • Tony

    My neighbor works at a local (Salt Lake City) gunshop, and several weeks ago he told me about the Kel-Tec RFB. The place he works has one they ordered for someone who hasn’t picked it up yet. When I went by the shop the other day he pulled it out of the back room and let me look at it.

    Waaaay cool, and my gun collection is getting thinned out to pay for one.

    My buddy is getting one too.

    I would like to see how well they group.

  • Bill

    FAL mags. To bad they didnt use HK-91/G3 mags. Light weight aluminum 20 rounders that are super cheap and easy to get. I still have ten left over after I got rid of my Century C91 Sporter (junk). Oh well…. :)

  • http://billorites.blogspot.com/ Bill O’ Rites

    Derrick

    There are some inaccuracies in this:

    “And just for the record 7.62 NATO and 308 Win. Are different rounds the actual physical sizes are the same but the inner chambers are not the 308 Win is actually a hotter shooting round with a chamber pressure of 62000psi compared to the NATO 7.62 which is around 50000psi shooting a NATO round from a firearm chambered for 308 is fine but the extra 3000 psi in a NATO chambered gun can prove to be a painful combo.”

    Until recently, NATO used CUP to measure pressure & 7.62×51 operated at 50,000CUP rather than PSI. There is no way to convert CUP into PSI due to completely different methods of measurement.
    NATO STANAG for 7.62×51 has now been updated to 60,200PSI using the same piezoelectric method as that used by SAAMI & other industry bodies.
    There ARE minor dimensional differences in both the case & chamber between 7.62 NATO & .308Win, with the former having thicker case walls & thus less powder capacity.
    I have copies of the relevant STANAG documentation somewhere, including cartridge & chamber dimensions & tolerances.

  • Mahhn

    Bill ‘O

    I have read post (not sure where) that Kel tek was asked if it was safe to shoot the hotter 308. They said yes, and apparently it says it can shoot 308 in the manual but on the gun itself it says 7.62 x 51 NATO.

    So I think they made it bullet proof (pun) for the 308 and it will shoot the weaker NATO rounds. The gas pressure is adjustable and from reading in the Kel tek forums (two posters have them) they adjust the pressure to match their choice in ammo, or compressor installed.

  • bfree

    The problem is price point. For that much money you can pick up several rifles in .308 in a carbine from manufacturers who have proven combat and military testing track records.

    This is not to say that this rifle isn’t up to the task but as a former Army Ranger I will tell you that none of us would use this firearm. A friend of mine had a Kel-Tec PA32 and at the range it was NOT uncommon to misfire or jam. He sold it and purchased a Sig232 as his back up…thousands of rounds later he has still never had a missfire.

    If you are going to purchase a firearm, sock away that extra dough and buy yourself a bomb proof brand like Sig Sauer, CZ, FN Herstal (for a bullpup)… These weapons will be dependable regardless of ammo or abuse. In the end, a weapon is no better than it’s dependability and the calm, trained nerves of the person who is firing it.

  • Mahhn

    bree,
    this is not to be argumentative just to clarify the differences of weapon here.

    Comparing a pistol of a completely different designed rifle really has no bearing. The functionality of the rifle has been tested for more than a year now, and the few owners that have made post about them have been very very happy. (Kel tek forums and another I can’t think of right now)

    Yes there are several other 308 choices out there, the REM700 is great, but, it is not a bullpup, semi auto, or ambidextrous.

    The Sig Sauer, and CZ arn’t bullpups (I did a google to see if there was something I didn’t know of, and came up empty), and the FN is 556, not good for big game.

    The actual price (not inflated) has been starting at $1250.
    My dealer promised me it will be $150 over his cost, this is normal for him on items over $1,000. I’ve read others have pre-orders in for any place from 1200 to 1550, so I don’t think the price it to much considering it meets requirements many of us are looking for –
    -Ambidextrous
    -Powerful enough for game hunting
    -Short enough for a home defense -bullpup
    -Semi auto (for follow up shots for home and hunting)
    I don’t see anything else matching all 4 of those on the market.

    I plan on shooting out to 300 yards max (civilian use) they advertise it as up to 600. It fits my bill from what I’ve learnededed. :)

    Now if I didn’t want a semi auto or care about ambi (both wanted very much here) I would be looking at this – in 308, it is MUCH more money though $3,900+.
    http://www.deserttacticalarms.com/

  • bfree

    Mahhn, first of all, it’s your money, get whatever floats your boat. I do have a couple comments for you and let them go in one ear..other.

    1. The pistol is relevant because all products are reflective of the overall quality of the brand/manufacturer who produces them. Would you pay for $40,000 for a Yugo Sports Car? Kel-Tec is not Hi-Point but they do not have a reputation as premium, combat proven brand. That’s not to say this weapon won’t meet and exceed your expectations.

    2. I do not recommend using an assault weapon in .308 for home defense. First, I just wouldn’t trust Kel-Tec dependability in that type of situation. Second, if you have standard hunting rifle round in that chamber you’re likely to take out the bag guy and all your neighbors in the next 3 houses. That’s a big lawsuit. You’d want to buy special ammo for that if you do use it for home defense. God forbid, if you are in that situation, trust me the adrenaline and nerves will be pumping; you will not possess the same skills as you do on the range. It will likely be at night, and you may even have to dodge objects or opposing fire. A shotgun with a pistol grip is a much better choice and accuracy is increased by 300%.

    3. To consistently hit anything around 300meters, let alone shoot 1-2 minutes with a bullpup, without the 24 or 32 inch barrel, will be difficult. If you do have a 24 or the 32 inch barrel then you lose some of the CQC qualities of the smaller rifle.

    4. WARNING: bringing a bullpup rifle with you on a hunting trip is like wearing a t-shirt that says wanna-be…I would have no problem with it, I say go for it…but my friends are old school…still using their fathers 7mm magnum hunting rifle with woodstock.

    5. Big Game? Deer is not big game, and I confess that shot placement is everything..HOWEVER, I do not recommend the .308 for anything bigger than Mule Deer. For Elk, Moose, etc…I highly recommend the .300 win mag. I was on a hunting trip in Alaska and saw a guy put three rounds of .308 in a Moose and we still had to track it for 30 minutes before it died. It was screaming the whole time in pain. The Moose suffered and my friend never hunted after that again.

    6. In your post you mention wanting .308 and then you say at the end you can’t afford this in .308????

    7. Buy the Ruger Mini-30. Excellent, well proven weapon based on the M-14 (which is still used to this day as a sniper rifle). The Mini-30 is chambered in .308 and is carbine.

    Good luck, be safe.

  • bfree

    Mahhn…by the way the Mini-30 is about $650-$750…I would recommend one in SS with a synthetic stock. You can also buy 30 round magazines. You’ll have a better weapon than the Kel-Tec and all the attributes of the smaller size. With a scope, you should be just fine out to 300 meters with the Ruger.

  • bfree

    Mahhn..apologies…I am in innacurate in saying the mini-30 is chambered in .308…it’s 7.62 x 39 (AK 47 round)…very flat trajectory for the first 150 meters. From what I understand you can get excellent accuracy up to 200m with premium ammo..(do not use the wolf or CommieBlock ammo..very poor quality will result in random shot groups)….you will see some drop at 300 meters but so long as you have zeroed for that, you can adjust your site and be on target.

  • http://billorites.blogspot.com/ Bill O’ Rites

    bfree

    1: The pistol ISN’T relevant, just as the issues with the old M16 have no bearing on the current model from the same manufacturer.
    Your statement that a 7.62mm expanding bullet will pass through three houses after the BG would be laughable if it were not so inaccurate & irresponsible.

    2: Untrue assertions of this kind are what we expect from the GCN & Nancy Pelosi – not a firearms owner.

    How can a pistol gripped shotgun be 300% more accurate than a rifle?

    I’ll take a handgun over a long arm for personal defence in the confines of my home; unless of course you mean for someone who has no intent to leave the room they’re in at the time.

    3: Why assert that a bullpup wont be accurate at 300m?
    If anything, the design is inherently MORE accurate due to the more rigid action.
    Compare like with like – a semi auto military/defensive rifle & then tell me that an unmodified FAL, M14, G3, CETME or AR10 is going to be consistently more accurate than the bullpup – only the M14 might just be.

    4: Weak argument – the Fudds will mutter & whine about taking ANY EBR hunting, be it bullpup, AR15 or FAL.

    5: BS .308Win is perfectly capable of taking deer, elk, moose & caribou out past 300yds when used with the right bullet by someone who can shoot better than your friend – that’s bad marksmanship, not an inadequate cartridge to blame.

    7: I don’t know if you’ve ever even FIRED a Ruger Mini 30 but I doubt it, as it’s chambered in 7.62×39 not 7.62×51 & I’ve never had it better 4MOA off the bench.
    It’s run out of steam at 300yds too………

    I went through a LOT of 7.62 NATO in years gone by & know exactly what its terminal effects look like.

  • Ray

    bfree, you said a few things that I have to comment to-
    First of all, a shotgun with a pistol grip is a very poor choice for home defense. There is absolutely no way that it is 300% more accurate than a rifle. In fact, it’s probably the other way around- the rifle is 300% more accurate than the pistol gripped shotgun. Also, in this day and age, where gangs are starting to aquire bullet proof vests, in some areas, there is a decent chance that a home invader will have such a vest, and while the shotgun might crack some ribs, it isn’t exactly the tool for the job. A rifle round is way better.

    Hitting something beyond 300 yards with a 16″ ar and iron sights isn’t that hard provided the guy behind the gun does his part. A moderately accurate .308 with an 18″ barrel will easily be “minute of deer” at 300 yards. The round is certainly capable of that range, as highly accurate bolt guns chambered for .308 can reach out beyond 1000 yards.

    I have several friends that have used .308 on elk and moose without issue. They had good shot placement, and the animal went down. If your friend hit the moose 3 times and it didn’t go down, it sounds like poor shot placement.

    The mini-30 is chambered in 7.62×39, not .308 win. 7.62×39 is similar to 30-30, so it would be an excellent close range deer gun, and might even take elk at close range when loaded with heavy bullets, but it isn’t going to perform that great at 300 yards. To get something similar to the mini-30, but in .308, you would have to get an M1A from one of the various makers, such as Springfield armory. It will be more expensive, heavier, and longer than the Keltec.

    Like I said, the only reason that I don’t like the keltec is I don’t see any provision for being able to look in the chamber directly without removing the magazine and turning the gun over.

  • Mahhn

    bfree,
    Thanks for the suggestion of the Mini-30, I noticed the ejection won’t burn a lefty.

    “6. In your post you mention wanting .308 and then you say at the end you can’t afford this in .308????”

    — no no, you read to fast “Now if I didn’t want a semi auto or care about ambi (both wanted very much here) I would be looking at this – in 308, it is MUCH more money though $3,900+.
    http://www.deserttacticalarms.com/

    Check out the above link, although it is a fairly new rifle, I think your gun geekyness (a positive thing) may find it cool.

    Mine is paid for, for myself and lefty bother, I expect and hope to enjoy it when it comes in. It can always be replaced.

  • bfree

    Hello to all….I appreciate and respect everyone’s opinion.

    In the end, it’s best to do what you believe is best. H, all I can say is that it’s a bit different in real life.

    You have light, flashes, bullets, objects, noise, dark, etc..I’ve seen guys miss with a rifle at 10 yards. Shotguns will improve your knock down 3-1 in a chaotic, home defense situation. Once you’ve experienced the CQC situation, you’ll know what I mean and how naive Ray and Bill are.

    I agree, and I said as much, the .308 is a great deer round, not a great big round gun. Bill would be put in his place by the overwhelming amount of guides in Alaska. Hearing about the 300 meter shot is like hearing “leg” Infantry talk about there road marches with there 65 pound ruck’s…only to weight the ruck at 40lbs…get my drift H?? “The fish was this big”..LOL>

    Ray says you have to go to M1A1…come on Ray, how about the good ‘ole M-14 which is still used, effectively I might add, as a sniper rifle..that is a .308 my friend.

    Bill…dude…let me tell you that the enemy doesn’t GAF if your .308 and NATO rounds are little hotter or not….MENTAL MASTURBATION doesn’t do much for you in combat.

    In the end we are talking about a Kel-Tec…one of the most laughable firearms made…

    Dude, buy it if you want, it’s a cheap POS. I’d be embarrassed to even have it in my firearms vault.

    When it comes to firearms, there’s a reason that Sig, Beretta, AL, CZ, FN, H&K, blah, blah are all supplying to the military and Kel-Tec ARE NOT.

    Think about that.

  • http://billorites.blogspot.com/ Bill O’ Rites

    “You have light, flashes, bullets, objects, noise, dark, etc..I’ve seen guys miss with a rifle at 10 yards. Shotguns will improve your knock down 3-1 in a chaotic, home defense situation. Once you’ve experienced the CQC situation, you’ll know what I mean and how naive Ray and Bill are.”

    At ten yards you’re outside the realm of CQC & well outside the range generally involved in an encounter with an intruder.
    At that range, OO buck will have a spread of less than 10″ with individual shot having considerably less potential lethality than a single JHP from a handgun.
    Once you’ve pushed a bayonet into an Argy conscript’s groin & then pulled the trigger on an L1A1 you might understand how naive I’m not….

    …..now THAT is what I call CQC.

    Try some trench clearing for real – it makes the bullpup make sense.

    Though NOT the 5.56 pill most of them deliver.

  • http://billorites.blogspot.com/ Bill O’ Rites

    bfree:
    Once you start calling someone who disagrees with your viewpoint “dude” it signifies a lack of reasoned rebuttal.

    “Bill…dude…let me tell you that the enemy doesn’t GAF if your .308 and NATO rounds are little hotter or not….MENTAL MASTURBATION doesn’t do much for you in combat.”

    I guess I ought to point out that it was yourself who espoused the superiority of the .300Win Mag over the humble .308 Win viz its ability to kill stuff.

    As for this:

    Dude, buy it if you want, it’s a cheap POS. I’d be embarrassed to even have it in my firearms vault.

    I’ll tell you this for free & in order to save future embarrassment: I’ve been around military firearms “for a while” in one way or another & a hands on inspection of this firearm is something you evidently haven’t done.
    I’d place it AT LEAST equal to the FN F2000 on build quality & robustness & superior to our current service rifle.
    Admittedly I cannot compare MRBF & see no need due to the rifle not being in the running for NATO issue.

    “When it comes to firearms, there’s a reason that Sig, Beretta, AL, CZ, FN, H&K, blah, blah are all supplying to the military and Kel-Tec ARE NOT.

    Think about that.”

    How about because they’ve no interest in doing so, or because they’re not presently producing stuff with an eye to the military market?

    Or how about the FACT that price is an overriding factor in the military supply process – you surely didn’t think “fit for purpose” was the main guiding factor……….?

    I don’t know what your MOS is/was but the Beretta is a bloody AWFUL side-arm with enough problems to rival those of the original L85……..

  • Ray

    “You have light, flashes, bullets, objects, noise, dark, etc..I’ve seen guys miss with a rifle at 10 yards. Shotguns will improve your knock down 3-1 in a chaotic, home defense situation. Once you’ve experienced the CQC situation, you’ll know what I mean and how naive Ray and Bill are.”

    I’m curious- have you ever pattern tested a shotgun? The longest shot possible in my house is 10 yards. At that range, my shotgun patterns cover roughly 3″. In all reality, there is no difference as far as ease of hitting the target with a 3 inch pattern or a single projectile. With a shotgun, you still need to aim, just the same as with a rifle. The only advantage of the shotgun is that it tends to be more capable of stopping an unarmored threat. Around here, the chances of a home invader having armor is pretty slim. In some areas with a heavy gang presence, they are starting to have reports of well equipped home invasion gangs that wear armor. If I was in one of those places, I would use a rifle for home defense.

    “I agree, and I said as much, the .308 is a great deer round, not a great big round gun. Bill would be put in his place by the overwhelming amount of guides in Alaska. Hearing about the 300 meter shot is like hearing “leg” Infantry talk about there road marches with there 65 pound ruck’s…only to weight the ruck at 40lbs…get my drift H?? “The fish was this big”..LOL>”

    Personally, I would say that the .308 is a bit bigger than you need for deer. .243 is about right for a dedicated deer gun. .308 on the other hand is a good multipurpose gun that will take deer without too much damage, and has dropped a lot of elk and moose with well placed shots. Many Alaskan guides carry heavier guns because of the threat of bears while hunting, but .308 should be able to take moose if the person behind the gun does their part.

    As for 300 yards, that and much longer is done on a regular basis in practical rifle competitions, often using iron sited or red dot equipped rifles. Prior to WWI, the average British infantry soldier was capable of shooting the “mad minute”- using an iron sighted bolt action Enfield rifle, he could hit a target at a range of 300 yards 15 times in one minute, including any loading necessary. In other words, they could make an aimed, 300 yard shot, work the bolt, and be ready for the next shot, all in under 4 seconds. Many soldiers were capable of more than 15 shots. If you don’t think 300 yards with a .308 scoped weapon is possible, you are lost.

    “Ray says you have to go to M1A1…come on Ray, how about the good ‘ole M-14 which is still used, effectively I might add, as a sniper rifle..that is a .308 my friend.”
    News flash- the M1A is a civilian M14. If you go to Springfield armory and ask for an M14, they will gladly sell you an M1A, which will look, feel, and shoot like an M14. I never said that the M14/M1A is a bad gun, and in fact, I am a big fan of it. And I stand by my statement- the mini-14 and mini-30 are sized down versions of the M14/M1A, and if you want something similar to the mini-14 or mini-30 but in .308, the obvious choice is the M1A

    As for why the various military don’t buy Keltec stuff, thats probably mostly to do with the fact that the kind of guns keltec makes aren’t in big demand with the military. For example, small backup guns aren’t really that in demand when backup gun is taken to mean a full size handgun. Neither Marlin nor DSA sell any guns to the military either, does that mean that their quality is lacking?

  • bfree

    Ray, you only have a house 30 foot long? Dude, do you live on a boat? LOL..just kidding, Ray. BTW…no matter what BOR says, “Dude” is term used among friends out here on the left coast.

    The Garand is legendary but the M-14 is a direct descendent of the M1. The new and improved son. In the form of the M21 or M25 it is still used in combat to this day.

    I have an M-14 and would NEVER give it up.

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

      Gentleman, lets get back on topic.

  • Plink

    Anecdotal evidence is never accurate. A couple examples:

    The jamming PA32 doesn’t mean Kel-Tec is junk. I have a P-11 that has over 6,000 rounds through it and it has never had any sort of a malfunction. That’s not an indicator of Kel-Tec as a brand either. It only means that his Kel-Tec jammed and mine doesn’t.

    I have a friend who’s dad once had a .30-06 fail ti take down a deer. Both of them are lifelong hunters and excellant shots, but there are other variables such as proper bullet selection. Now they think the .30-06 is worthless on deer. I think we all know better. Anecdotal evidence at it’s finest.

    If a company is judged by the occasional dud, then American cars must really be junk. You’d think after all these years they could get it right. Actually, I guess Ferrari would be junk too. They did make the Dino after all.

    I had a Colt Targetsman that never worked right. I also had a Para Warthog that went back to Para so many times that I finally just gave up and got rid of it. That doesn’t mean that Colt and Para make junk guns. It just means that either the models I had were crappy, or that I got duds.

    But to slam Kel-Tec because they don’t make anything for the military, while recommending Ruger, who doesn’t either, is just hypocritical.

    If you don’t like Kel-tec, that’s fine. I own several of their products and have absolutely no complaints about them. They’re a good solid gun at a fair price point. I own a heckuva lot of other brands too, and they compare favorably with any of them.

    What determines a guns quality is it’s engineering, materials and manufacturing. If it’s well designed and well executed, why does it matter who makes it? I don’t have my RFB yet, but I have high hopes for it. If it’s a dud, you can bet I’ll be yelling at the top of my lungs on all the boards, trying to make others aware before they waste their money. But if it’s a solid performer, you can bet I’ll be letting people know that too. I don’t care who makes it, only how it’s made.

  • bfree

    You are kidding me, right? On one hand you have Kel-Tec who’s been around for 18 years and has done nothing but produce price point weapons and not one which has attained legendary status and then you have Bill Ruger…who is considered by many to be one of the greatest american firearm designers, ever. Browning, Colt, Ruger. His portfolio includes many legendary weapons to include the most popular .22 firearm pistol ever made, the Blackhawk revolver, the MK77…one of the best hunting rifles EVER made…on an on.

    FYI..Ruger has produced more types of sporting firearms than any other firearms manufacturer in the world.

    Getting back to the RFB…I can’t wait to see the reviews…make sure you shoot that thing like it’s a loaner, get that barrel red hot and see how those shot groups look, how the weapons functions, etc. Put every type of round through and really put it through it’s paces. Too many reviewers today are recieving heavily discounted or free weapons in return for positive reviews.

    I hope it works out for you.

  • Ray

    You must have a pretty big house if you think a 30′ inside shot is short.
    Also, I’m not talking about the M1 Garand. M1A is another name for the M14. Search for “M1A” on Google, and you will find that today’s M1A is identical to the M14. You don’t need to explain to me the origions of the M14, I know the entire background of the M14 and it’s development through from the Garand, to the T20, T25, and T44. I am also very well aware of the most modern variants of the M14 in use today.

    Anyways, now that that is cleared up, back to the issue at hand. I like the idea of bullpups, but to date, nobody seems to have built one without some sort of issue. The majority of bullpups eject out of the right side, making it impossible to fire from the left side. I expect all defensive guns to be ambidextrous, so I can’t see using a side ejecting bullpup. That narrows the field down to the FN FS2000, PS90, and Keltec RFB. I find the FS2000 to be particularly un-ergonomic and bulky, so I’m not inclined to try that. The PS90 shoots a round that is only slightly more powerful than a 22 rimfire, so it wouldn’t be my first choice for anything besides shooting rodents. The Keltec, as I have said before, seems to have no provision to allow you to view directly into the chamber without removing the magazine, and I don’t like that idea. Furthermore, the FS2000 and RFB uses a very complicated action which worries me a little. I could easily get over such worry if the gun proves to be reliable and durable however. If Keltec offered a flap door or some other means to easily check the chamber, I’d probably buy it, because it is everything else that I am looking for- compact size, what appears to be good ergonomics, and high power.

  • bfree

    Ray, I stand corrected, you’re talking Springfield M1A1. M1 is so synonymous with the Garand I didn’t even think about the SA version of the M-14, you’re right. Fantastic weapon.

    If you are really considering an FN take a look at the SCAR-H MK17 in cqc configuration.

    Humor me, please don’t compare it to the Kel-Tec. Will someone break down the components, manufacturing process, metallurgy, etc. between the Kel-Tec and the FN BullPup..looks and range report or one thing but IMHO it just looks like another cheap Kel-Tec.

  • Ray

    “If you are really considering an FN take a look at the SCAR-H MK17 in cqc configuration. ”

    The Scar with CQC barrel is a conventional rifle, and while it is as compact as the RFB, it owes it’s compactness to it’s 13″ barrel, which results in reduced ballistics, and the necessity for federal registration. In addition, we are talking about a gun that frequently sells for 5000-6000 dollars for a gun that is pretty similar to the various AR-10 variants or the DSA FAL. Personally, I’d rather have a 12.5″ barreled AR-10 type, or the 13″ DSA and $3000 in other guns and ammo than a SCAR with short barrel.

    However, bullpup it is not, and that is what this article is about. As far as bullpups go, neither of FN’s entries are very suitable as a general purpose rifle in my opinion. The FS-2000 is uncomfortable and ungainly, and the PS-90 is chambered for too small of a round, and while it would make a good varmint gun or plinker, that’s about it. Keltec appears to have come the closest to what I want, if they would make it possible to check the chamber without removing the mag, I’d be all over it.

    As far as Ruger vs Keltec, the point of this is to show that it is entirely possible for a company to produce high quality weapons, and not be selling them to the military.

    And while you have had bad experiences with Keltec, many others have had very good experiences, and highly recommend them. Furthermore, I’d heard bad reviews on Ruger, Colt, HK, FN, Glock, Remington, Mossberg, Kimber, Sig, and pretty much every brand name out there. Just because there are a few bad reviews out there doesn’t mean that they are as bad as is claimed.

  • bfree

    Ray, just pointing out some possible options to a compact weapon. The fact is that the FN has passed stringent military requirements and has been selected by several countries as their combat rifle..I’m speaking of the BullPup. I figure if SCAR is good enough for SF, it might be of some consideration to the civilian gun elite.

    I agree that there are many high quality weapons not sold to the military, KEl-TEC is not one of them.

    Go look on every Kel-Tec forum and you’ll see that it’s not uncommon to see a lot of recommendations on how to make your Kel-Tec work better. How to file this down or replace this part to cover some type of problem with the weapon. That’s a big red flag and it’s reflective of KT’s quality control. There is a big difference between 1-10000 firearms having issues vs. 1-100. Y

    Normally this boils down to owner pride and no one wants to admit that they’ve made a bonehead choice, especially with weapons…too much macho ego at stake. They then tend to tolerate or ignore the flaws of the weapon.

    I hear alot of people say that for the money, Kel-Tec is a great weapon..but what does that really mean? For the money? There’s an implied trade off, better price for less of what? Reliability, accuracy, durability, quality? To me no weapon is worth any price if any of these attributes are comprimised.

    I am not comfortable endorsing a weapon made from an 18 year old company with no legacy weapons whatsoever; and with a long history of price point models that have been released to the public with more than their share of bugs.

    We all have different standards when it comes to firearms, I’m just afraid Kel-Tec doesn not meet mine.

    I look forward to honest reviews of the SBR…if you can prove to me that this weapon can endure combat like testing and reliability and that it has no bugs…SIG SAUER quality…then I’ll consider buying one for my kid.

    I think the draw to the SBR is the supercial asthetics and a lot of people are ignoring the quality factor of the components and metallurgy.

  • http://billorites.blogspot.com/ Bill O’ Rites

    bfree
    I’ll have to takr you to task for this:
    “You are kidding me, right? On one hand you have Kel-Tec who’s been around for 18 years and has done nothing but produce price point weapons and not one which has attained legendary status and then you have Bill Ruger…who is considered by many to be one of the greatest american firearm designers, ever. Browning, Colt, Ruger. His portfolio includes many legendary weapons to include the most popular .22 firearm pistol ever made, the Blackhawk revolver, the MK77…one of the best hunting rifles EVER made…on an on.”

    In one breath you slam Kel-Tec for producing “price point” firearms, whilst complaining previously about the EXPENSIVENESS of the RFB.
    As for the M77 – not MK77 – I’ve had more than a few through my hands with problems – even the MkII’s & including some critical safety issues.
    The trigger pull can best be described as “robust”……
    I think you’ll find that there have been far more 1911′s & Hi-Powers made than Blackhawks of ANY iteration.

    Go look on ANY firearm forum & you’ll find people with issues & people with a desire to improve what they have, whether it’s an AR15 or a Webley-Fosberry. That doesn’t mean there’s anything desperately wrong with that maker’s firearms – merely that all mechanical constructs can & do have problems.
    I’ve shot pretty much everything from the SMLE to the Barret 82, with M60′s the L7A2 & most modern military small arms in between & I’m telling you that the RFB is built to a high standard – no, NOT that”High Standard”…….;-) – & IMO will prove to be a classic firearm.

    PS Don’t tell me about Sig quality – I had the misfortune to while away the hours with a thoroughly recalcitrant 556 at one point :-(

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

      with any gun there is are trade offs. Not even the most expensive guns are perfect. They all have faults.

  • Ray

    “Ray, just pointing out some possible options to a compact weapon. The fact is that the FN has passed stringent military requirements and has been selected by several countries as their combat rifle..I’m speaking of the BullPup. I figure if SCAR is good enough for SF, it might be of some consideration to the civilian gun elite.”

    Quite frankly, you haven’t scratched the surface when it comes to compact weapons that are available with an SBR stamp. The SCAR is apparently a good gun, but there are also many other good guns that don’t cost nearly as much, and have much more real world testing. In all reality, you are basing your praise of the SCAR on about as much real world testing as has been seen by the RFB that you speak so bad of.
    Also, while I am sure that the FS-2000 is a good gun, I don’t like the ergonomics, so it doesn’t matter how good of a gun it is, I’m not buying it.

    “I think the draw to the SBR is the supercial asthetics and a lot of people are ignoring the quality factor of the components and metallurgy.”
    Are they ignoring them, or are they just not there? So far, all it seems that you are basing these claims on is that your buddy had a few jambs in a pistol built by keltec, and most of their stuff doesn’t cost enough.
    Oh, and by the way, the RFB is not an SBR, that’s one of the main advantages of it.

  • bfree

    Bil…too expensive “for a Kel-Tec”. Bill, also, please ease up on the bayoneting the Argy in the groin comments. You’re breaking the honor code. There’s nothing about combat worth boasting about.

    Good luck with your “Kel-Tec” and make sure you post honest reviews for all fo us to see. I’m anxious to hear the range reviews after giving the weapon a good work out.

    My 12 year old thinks it looks “really cool”.

  • Mahhn

    bfree,

    If for example you pointed at specific components and concerns like Ray did about being able to view into the chamber, I wouldn’t be typing this.

    Less one reason, I don’t understand why you have posted here.
    You’ve posted negative remarks on a product you have never seen and apparently not read a review on (private owners have, find it yourself).
    Gone off topic to recommend products that are not similar, less being a firearm.
    You start to sound reasonable then toss in a mock/jab, which leads me to the reason of your posting, even if you don’t believe it.

    Your a troll.

    I apologize to the others for being the first to feed him. It happens, we get lead in and got defensive over his contempt.

    I suggest bfree you find a thread you can be constructive in and not a thorn.
    There is no point in responding to bfree as he is not contributing to the topic, just let it go, it’s him, not us.

    - don’t make me pull the Internet over :P -

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

      I think everyone had had their say. From now on non-topic comments will be removed.

  • subby

    Wow, the rifle on show has what appears to be a fluted stainless steel barrel.

  • Jida

    Pros:

    1) Good cartridge which has one of the best versatility ranges of any ammo readily available.
    2) Interchangable ammo type with a matching bolt gun.
    3) Light, compact and out of the way if needed.
    4) Left or right hand shooting for clearing corners, great option for left handers.
    5) KelTec has a lifetime warranty on all of their firearms and will fix it now or years from now if needed.
    6) Avid close community who know the guns better than KelTec in some cases.

    Cons:

    1) Strong kick which will cause minute of flinch accuracy problems for smaller people.
    2) All classic training done for current firearms does not apply to this configuration and can cause some discomfort on safety.
    3) Looks and cartridge can confuse people on its purpose and can lead to a let down if purposed incorrectly.

    When you start looking at a semi auto in the U.S. you start around $1,000 and then work your way down to the $500′s and up to the $2,000.

    If you are fine with 223 then you have many options and configurations to cover a wide array of conditions. You are limiting yourself balistically with this choice but everything else is far more open.

    In 308 you have few options for left handed folks, few options for lighter weight, few options for semi auto and few options in carbines.

    The thought appears to be that if you are going to go 308 then you are using that round for an expected list of things (long range, game hunting, etc.).

    In my case this rifle fits a niche that I cannot currently fill. I am looking at a 3 gun set outside of my hunting gear.

    A long range sub MOA rifle, a matching semi auto rifle and a 22 pistol.

    The long range rifle is meant for everything outside of self defense. The semi is meant to help in carrying 1 kind of ammo and for self defense in general. The .22 is for ‘quantity’ ammo carrying and as a primary small game getter with low noise output.

    If I were to pack all 3 (me being strong and used to larger weights) the long range rifle would be slung, the semi would be packed and the .22 would be in a holster.

    To date, I could not match a rifle to the semi, keep the size and weight reasonable and have them in a caliber that was common and versatile.

    308 is the right caliber in my opinion. I have no desire to get into a protracted firefight with anyone. I would not carry more than 100 rounds in 308 since it is only to,

    1) Shoot big game.
    2) Shoot 2 legged game.

    Since this would be rare for me in most cases both rifles would be used sparingly. This is also for basic trips and not for ‘survival mode’ where you start putting your goods underground and wearing tin foil helmets.

    The .22 allows for me to carry 1000 rounds without much worry, most likely 500 at the most. This is the main ‘survival’ item and would be used to harvest most game if needed.

    With all this written down, and sorry for the length, my goal is maybe the same as some and different than others.

    The RFB fills a void which there is currently not a viable option without giving up something else or adding something I do not need.

  • Plink

    I agree that the RFB fills a niche for many of us that nothing else fills. For me, it’s the mid length model. About the same length and weight as my AK, but with a longer barrel than my STG-58. I’m not sure I like the ejection system of the RFB but I haven’t had the chance to try it out yet to see. I don’t like to make judgements without adequate information.

    I have a 9mm bullpup so I have an idea of how well they handle. It’s my favorite plinker. While I admire the shortness of the 18 inch model, you couldn’t give me a short barrelled anything. I don’t ride around in Humvs and tanks.

    I wish 223 fit my requirements better. There are definately a lot of nice guns to choose from. The lighter weight, reduced recoil and ability to carry more ammo is a strong incentive. But I have guns in both calibers and I feel the .308 meets my needs better.

    Right now my biggest question is accuracy of the RFB. I don’t expect it to be a target rifle, but I hope it will be accurate enough to use at long range. Especially considering that it’ll be dependant on optical sights for the most part.

    Note to Jida: Before you commit to packing that much weight around, please read this article about backpacking with guns. It’s written by someone with a lot of experience at it and is very thought provoking. It changed my mind on several things.

    http://www.tacticalgearreview.com/wordpress/2006/07/the-backpack-survivalist-by-mike-rostov-2

    My appologies to the mods if posting links is forbidden. You’ll get no complaints from me if you need to delete the link or entire post. Thanks.

  • Jida

    Nice article and I agree with his assessment.

    Although I do not want to derail the conversation at all, the MKIII is the pistol I am picking up and I am going the extra step to teflon coat it.

    “Big Gun/Little Pistol” and “Big Pistol/Little Gun” is the mantra I follow.

    The way I figure it, if I have to fight something big enough that .22 does not cut it I want to power and range of a rifle.

    Ammo is fairly compatible in size/weight to large hand guns in the greater scheme of things.

    This is where the RFB fits in really well. It is compact and lightweight. Easily stored and carried and if needed it will perform as a battle rifle or to take game that is too big for the .22.

    I am in Northern CA and my options for bugouts is slimmer than most. If I take off in any direction I am going to find good spots every 10 miles but a lot of nothing inbetween.

    For the RFB it would end up in the pack 99% of the time until I find a base I like and want to hold it.

    Then it would stay out and with me most of the time.

    I have thought of the matching pistol to rifle combination however there are drawbacks to this solution which mainly come from the rifle selections. I have yet to see a really good ‘survival’ style .357 rifle.

    The thought was to get one and take it through the ringer for survival and then match it to a pistol.

    Issues being that .357 is not a good small game round, definately not good for birds, decent all around for medium to large game and ok on larger than that.

    As per the article, the odds of you needing and using the larger gun is slim compared to snares, .22′s, traps, fishing, etc.

    The larger gun should be compact and ready to go and your secondary weapon should be lighter and used more often.

    .22 is the choice for this.

    For the larger gun you have tons of choices but for this left hander the RFB in .308 is just about written for me compared to almost everything else out there.

    Granted, I could do just fine with my .30-30, my shotgun, my pointed stick with a mean face written on it, etc.

    You do not need the RFB to survive in any stectch of the imagination.

    If you are in that niche like me though it is very appealing and even if you are not you have to admit that it does some things that other firearms simply can’t.

  • Mahhn

    http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2009/05/28/an-interview-with-matt-at-kel-tec-on-the-rfb/

    Great Q & A with Matt from Kel-Tec R&D

    Just about anything you could ask is answered!

  • Plink

    Mahhn,

    Thanks for the link. That’s an informative thread. I especially appreciated the info on the RFB’s accuracy and trigger. Every bullpup I have fired or handled had a horrid trigger. Looks like the RFB will not only be more accurate than I had thought, but have a sweet trigger too! This is turning out more and more to be exactly what I was looking for in a rifle.

    Now if only gun show sales would pick up, so I can afford the 24 inch model when it comes out!

  • Jida

    The results on a model that is just over legal is what I am waiting for as well.

    If a model is offered where the overall length is legal and the accuracy is MOA or better then 1 rifle may be the only thing you need.

    Especially if you keep the package to an overall small form factor and you carrry (or install) a pair of backup irons.

    It will be at least a year till yo will be able to find one of these and see it in a gun rack ready for you to take a look at it.

    Before then it is all order+pray it is right for you.

    As a survival style firearm it may have no equal for all that it can do if it performs as well as reports are saying it is.

    I would like to have one to test in a real world mountain run and see how it would act in that capacity.

  • herbstine

    I just purchased my RFB Monday. I have to say, I was more than impressed by this weapon. It’s a little heavier than an M4 carbine (by about a pound or 2) but it’s a little shorter. It is extremely well balanced, loaded or unloaded. The fit & finish is as good if not better than any new weapon I ever handled in 20 yrs of Army service. It had no sights included, so I bought a set of MagPul pop-up iron sights (I’ll probably add an EOTech later). It included 1 20 rd FN mag, sling & attachments, & the instruction manual.
    I had to try it out that day, so I loaded up 20 rds of LC 76 ball (had a little trouble after rd 15, but a mag slap & the rest went in easy) & headed out to a safe area (empty stock pond on my place). I didn’t take any tools with me, as I was most interested in handling & recoil at this point. Set up target at about 25 yards. Did not pre-lube the weapon, fired it as it came out of the box. First 5 rounds out, no problem, then came failure to feed. Charged, fired 1 round, failure to feed. Pulled magazine, the rounds were about 1/4″ below feedlip & rolling loose. Follower was hung up. Did a mag slap, reinserted mag, charged & fired all remaining rounds, no problem (I’ll take the mag apart later to see what was the hold-up).
    Recoil was a bit more than an M4, but a little less than a 30-30. Recoiled mostly straight back, only climbed about 1/2″ at muzzle. Re-aquiring was easy. Can’t comment on accuracy yet, range was short & I didn’t boresite the sites. I was on for deflection, but firing way too high. Impacts seemed consistant. Spent rounds ended up in a fairly neat little pile in front of my firing point. I only managed to loose 2, somewhere in the deep cracks in the dried up pond floor.
    Disassembly can be done with just a complete 7.62 rd, as can the gas adjustment (using rim).
    BTW, I have a KelTec P40 I carry as my concealed weapon. It is a competant pistol that has never failed me (fortunately, I haven’t had to use it in defense, just in practice). I haven’t been as impressed with KelTec rifles, until now. The RFB is a much beefier tank compared to the other long guns they make.
    From what I’ve seen so far, I would not hesitate to take this rifle into battle.
    I’ll update as I work with it more, if anyone’s interested.

  • bfree

    Mahnn..for God’s sake, it’s a KEL-TEC. Didn’t I read one of your previous posts where you had bought Camaro and you were planning on running it in F1. LMAO.

  • bfree

    Herbstine et. al…this just shows you a typical experience with a Kel-Tec…misfire, first round, brand new weapon. The problem is that after people purchase a firearm they will ignore and tolerate issues that they would never find acceptable before purchasing the weapon.

    Good luck with that Kel-Tec.

  • http://billorites.blogspot.com/ Bill O’ Rites

    bfree

    You can’t give up can you?
    ALL the reports I’ve seen on the RFB have been favourable – from those who’ve actually used one.
    So why should your uninformed & subjective bias against Kel-Tec mean anything?

    Oh, it doesn’t.

  • http://billorites.blogspot.com/ Bill O’ Rites

    So bfree, you see a couple of failures to feed (NOT misfires) as an issue when herbstine himself mentioned NO lubrication AND that the problem appeared to be the follower in the FAL magazine?

    In the past I’ve seen similar issues with new firearms from Colt, DSA, FN, Kimber, CZ., etc……..

    ….a couple of drops of lube in the right place & some rounds down range to bed in the action & they’ve been fine, or have you never noticed that guns smooth out after initial use?

    Give credit where it’s due & by ALL accounts it’s owed to Kel-Tec for the RFB

  • bfree

    Malfunction on first round??? I guess we all have our own standards of “favorable”. I’m just glad I’m making my own weapon’s choices.

  • bfree

    Bill, it’s no use..like the Camaro analogy, it’s no use telling you the Camaro just isn’t an Indy Car, even if you think it is. Good luck with that “Kel-Tec”. LMAO

  • http://billorites.blogspot.com/ Bill O’ Rites

    #
    bfreeon 30 Jul 2009 at 11:56 am link comment

    Malfunction on first round??? I guess we all have our own standards of “favorable”. I’m just glad I’m making my own weapon’s choices.

    You can’t even get that right.

    It was the 5th round & MAGAZINE related rather than the rifle…..

    Your lack of ability to even get this right shows your irrational bias.

    Car analogies have no bearing on this subject: The Kel-Tec RFB has received favourable reports from all & sundry, up to & including a comparison with current military firearms.
    Tell me: Have you even SEEN the RFB for real, never mind handling or firing it?
    At the beginning of October I’ll get some real time comparison in between the RFB, Steyr-Aug, FN F2000, L85A2 & TAR-21 & that’s just the bullpups. Now what they look like but how they handle & shoot.
    When I get back to the UK afterwards, I might just let you know how they do – without any unsubstantiated & preconceived bias based on completely different products………

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

      bfree, you have made you point.

      The bickering needs to end. No more discussion about reliability.

  • Mahhn

    herbstineon,

    Congratulations! and thanks for the mini review. We’ll be looking forward to your updates.

  • Plink

    Bfree, I don’t know what your issue is. I hate Glocks with a bloody passion, but I don’t go around trying to keep people from buying them or harrassing those who do. And if you had actually READ what Herbstine had written, he FIRED the first round and had a failure to feed because of the magazine. I own FALs and the mags can be a pain if they’re not clean and lubed. How can you fault a gun because it’s magazine failed?

    I forgot, you have such deep issues with the brand that logic no longer applies. Hang in there, keep slinging insults all you want. But where will you be when/if the positive reports start flowing in? Apologetic? Feel like a fool for previous comments? Nah, you’ll just fade away into the anonymity of the internet like so many flamers before you. Show some sense and wait till the reports start flowing in. Then if they’re negative, jump out with a giant “I TOLD YOU SO!”. All your doing now is setting yourself up to receive a bunch of them. I realize that you WANT the RFB to be junk, but isn’t it better to wait and see if it is before slinging mud?

  • herbstine

    Well, I took it out to Astro’s Range Saturday. Used an in-muzzle laser to pre-set the sights. Fired 10 rds, 2 groups of 5, benched 25yds. Only 3 hits on paper. Deflection seemed consistant, but elevation was all over. I believe the site radius available on the rail is entirely too short for the Magpul flip ups. The front sight looks as thick as an oak tree, and the rear apperture is like a living room window! I have an EoTech 512 on order.
    But no malfunctions this time. Took the mag apart last week. No dirt, no rust, no noticeable deformities. Wiped it out & light lube with Rem-Oil. Loaded & fed with no problems.

  • herbstine

    EoTech 512 came in Fri. Mounted & used laser to initial set-up. Went to range Sat. EoTech did the trick! 25 yd, 6″ tgt. Fired 50 rds in 5 rd groups. All rds in each group within 2″ area. Only 1 malfunction, rd 4 in 2nd mag hung on mag lip. Dropped mag, cleared & put rd back in mag, charged & continued firing. No further malfs. Now to work on the 5X adapter I bought for the EoTech!

  • Plink

    Sounds like you might have some problematic mags. I’ve ran into those for my FAL in the past. I just ended up tossing the bad mags since they were dirt cheap at the time. Maybe try mags from another source.

  • herbstine

    Right now, the only mag I’m using is the one provided with the rifle. I bought 12 from SG earlier in anticipation of getting an RFB. (Now all I have to do is remember where I put them!)

  • Rian

    I have a question about the RFB. Can I replace the trigger assembly with one that has a winter trigger and safety? I personally prefer this type because it physically puts something in the way of the trigger and I think it is safer. Also, the only rifles that I have found (a few of these rifles are in the gun shops where I live) are only the 18 inch variety. I want the target variant. Can I replace the 18 inch barrel with a new M1/14 barrel?

  • Plink

    It’s not an M1/M14. Parts aren’t interchangeable. I haven’t seen them mention a winter trigger option.

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

      Gentlemen, please, enough Kel-Tec bashing. Focus on the rifle not the company.

  • herbstine

    What I’ve read tells me that the longer barrel versions will be out later, relaease date not yet revealed. You can also replace the 18″ barrel with the 24″ & 28″ barrels, but it requires a gunsmith with a well equipped shop. I’d wait for the long barrel version, if that was what I wanted in this weapon. The trigger guard is a molded part of the pistol grip assembly. I haven’t heard of any variants to be made. I think this would preclude any winter assembly.

  • Munch

    Damnn this thing looks nice, unfortunately I don’t quite have the cash yet.

    Is anyone aware of if I can obtain this in Canada?

    Thanks

  • AA

    I wanna know that too. Is it legal in Canada? I’m pretty sure at least the 20 round magazine isn’t…

  • p1choco

    herbstine, I’ve read that the trigger is adjustable on all models and only the long model. What is the case with your rifle? Also, can you elaborate on what the trigger pull feels like. Does it break cleanly and reset shortly from the factory?

  • herbstine

    p1choco; I haven’t found any adjustment point for the trigger on my carbine, & the instruction manual makes no reference to being able to do that. Looking at the drawing they have in there, the trigger system is fairly complex.

    The trigger pull on mine is crisp, without being hard. I don’t have a gage, so I couldn’t tell you what it breaks at. It has a very short take-up, with no creep.

  • Greezer

    I would love to see one of these in 5.56/223 for an entry weapon. I think it would be good for patrol officers who have very little room in their vehicles due to all of the equipment we have to carry plus it would be great for an active shooter situation.

  • herbstine

    Steyr, FN & Bushmaster all make bullpup carbines in .223.

  • Greezer

    They are not Kel-Tec.

  • herbstine

    True, I was thinking you were wanting something right away. I don’t know how long it will be before Kel-Tec comes out with one. I’m guessing they are trying to follow the military line of thought, which is ‘we need bigger bullets’.

  • Not impressed

    Bad design with that forward eject. I can see shooting down at a angle and the bullet connecting with the brass……..bad!

    How about if you clearing a house or building or a hill and you point your rifle down and three empties hit your enemy in the head or go ching a ling a ling…..you just lost your surprise and got shot.

  • herbstine

    To Not impressed:

    The forward eject doesn’t “launch” the brass forward, it slides out of the front via gravity or follow-on brass forcing it forward. The odds of a bullet hitting a spent case from forward ejection are about the same as a bullet hitting a spent case ricochetting off the ceiling.

    If you are close enough for any of your empties to hit your enemy on the head, he’s either a complete idiot or you’ve already lost the surprise you think you had. If your foe can hear the empties go ching a ling a ling, I think he heard the shots they came from, again surpise lost.

    I like the forward eject, I haven’t had any problems with it. It’s also nice not to have to worry about a piece of hot brass hitting me after bouncing off a post or wall or whatever when firing in an enclosed area. I’ve had it happen.

  • Plink

    The ejection port isn’t flush with the muzzle. It’s set back a bit. Shooting your own brass is quite a longshot. And if you have fired the weapon enough to fill the chute with brass, you’ve lost your element of surprise in a house clearing situation anyway.

    I was a little standoffish on forward eject too, until I started studying it further. I’m sure it has some drawbacks, but all ejection systems do. It has some benefits too. Like everything, it’s a compromise.

    I think like any new system, it will take some getting used to and training. If surprise is critical, perhaps pointing the gun down for a moment to make sure there’s no brass in the chute, or something.

  • Ray

    Herbstine, keltec has said that the reason for the .308 was that it was easier to size a larger gun down than it was to size a smaller gun up. In other words, they started with the .308 because that was the largest version that they intended to create. The smaller versions will come later.

    As for the bullet catching the brass, the chances of that happening are nill to impossible. The bullet will be far down range before the ejected round is shoved into the tube, forcing a shell to fall out of the tube.

    As for dropping empties while maneuvering, just point the muzzle at the ground after the fire fight is over and clear the tube. The sound of the empties hitting the ground is hardly the loudest noise in the middle of a fire fight. Besides, this gun is pretty unlikely to be used for anything where you would have to be worried about this.

    A far bigger problem is that you have to remove the magazine to view the chamber.

    On a bullpup, bottom ejection would be best, but forward ejection at least lets you shoot weak side if you have to.

  • Vinster

    @notimpressed

    I hate myself for this, I know it’s just feeding the troll, but here it is.
    If your shooting straight down (would have to, to actually hit brass) you might want to buy a fishing pole. Not to mention how loud that would be in a bob house.

    As far as your empties hitting someone on the head, what would you do with an AR? put tape over the ejection port?
    You could (just like with an AR) put a catch bag on so your brass never hits the ground. I’ve planned on that since I placed my order in March last year.

    Three rounds in and your worried about them hearing the brass hit, do you know how LOUD this gun is?

    The only real problem with this gun is, mine isn’t here yet :P
    but thank you for not ordering one, more for us.

  • Greezer

    Way to go Vinster. I totally agree.

  • Munichith

    I’ve been in love for a while

    #1, Canadian legal? (y) (n)
    #2, Price?

    Looks solid, thanks for the blog :)

  • Matteo

    I have become completely interested in this weapon and think it fills a niche that heavily appeals to me. So I’d love to hear more from herbstine about his as well as others that have purchased it. I’m undecided in my choice of the carbine or sporter models. Might get both, LoL.

  • Domain1

    This thing about the ejected brass and your bullets hitting them is a waste of time and space on a hard drive. I have the FS-2000 and quite frankly love the way it ejects. I can fire 6 rnds before the door opens to drop the spent brass and if I have completed my mission there will be nothing but my boot print left behind and that want even be there if I am on concrete, there will be no brass for anyone to match it to my rifle. I am more concearned about the accuracy @ 400 plus yards than anything else, and i have to admit the pressure thing about NATO rnds and general Remington hunting rnds is something I didnt know about either, and that gives me reason for concearn. I will be shooting both rnds, but I will probably have 150 grain hunting rnds in the mags I intend on defending myself with. They do more damage than a Nato rnd does, and I don’t really care to just poke a hole in something though and through.
    The price is a little high for a KT, but I have certainly spent more on other more famed weapons. You got to give it to KT for one thing, they are at least building one. I would have though FN or some of these larger names would have done so first. Besides a link someone else posted ealier I didn’t know anyone else was even built one, and that one is above the price I intend on spending for a rifle is going to be. A pro for it is; it already has all the Pic rails you will ever need then a con is; they could have put some iron sites if nothing more than what they put on the FS 2000. I certainly intend on putting my own optics on it, but it would of been nice to have a backup set (and especially at this price) in case of primary or my optics failing (I know I can add them). Another pro; and this is the only reason I would consider this rifle and thats its length and weight plus the fact that it has a full length barrel on it. Otherwise a M1A1 would certainly satisfy my needs with a Sage stock.
    But I think all of us looking at this weapon have the same thing in mind. Lets see how can I put this? Tell you what, go to your gun safe and pull out that Garand, FAL or M1A1/M14, or even a Enfield 303, 1903 or a 1918, now pull out a AR-15, or a AK47, FS2000, PS90, what ever version AUG you have and sit them side by side it doesnt take long to fiure out what we are all after. That finest battle emplement ever built doesnt seem to be so fine anymore does it? And we are all the same, we dont feel the 5.56 has enough weight in its britches and this Kel-Tec fulfills a lot, if not all the things we are looking for. Now if I can just get one in my hands and give it a good running my questions will be answered. That one rifle jamming on the 5th rnd doesn’t bother me a bit, its a new weapon or Pete’s sake, shoot a couple hundred rnds thought it then lets see how its working.

  • Oddbod

    I’ll agree with most of that but take issue with the FAL/SLR being lumped in with all that mundane stuff ;-)

  • Domain1

    Then you missed the point of the post (probably because it was so mundane). The FAL is as long and heavy as the rest of those weapons mentioned. The FAL has certainly been used by more armies than any other weapon ever made I will give you that. But my point was about size and weight vs size and weight along with accuracy.
    I got nothing against the FAL and love my para style 21″ FAL. The KT will never be on the same level as the FAL to the masses, but it might be to me if I had to carry it all day long and urban warfare was the order of the day. I want something short, but with a full lenght barrel. Besides the insides of the KT is the same or somewhat the same as the FAL, even uses the same mags.
    I didn’t mean to step on your toes. I know these weapons have an almost cult like following. I am member of that cult.

  • Oddbod

    I wasn’t being serious matey – hence the smiley.

  • Domain1

    Yea, Oddbod I had saw that, and wondered if your jabbbing me but don’t take me seriously, or if that was the evil eye because I had talked about a FAL in a negative way.
    Man thats one weapon you might as well be talking about some Chaps wife when you talk about it. Folks are real serious and touchy about that rifle.
    After shooting some of my 5.56′s and I bring out the FAL you can certainly tell you moved up with the big iron. Plus you can see the hole in what ever your shooting at w/o having to go walk and see how your grouping are.
    You know its just hard to believe that our G.I. toted those Garands all across Europe and all those Pacific Islands when you compare it to the alloys and plastics we have today. Then again even today there are a lot of M14′s and M21′s being used in Afghanistan and we are selling abunch of M21′s to Pakistan right now.
    Speaking of which, does anyone know about the trigger assembly on these RFB’s? Is it made out of iron or is it like the FN’s and its an all plastic assembly? I was somewhat disheartened by that. Those guys at FN know better than I do, but can that plastic stand up to the heat in the Middle East and the cold of some of the places we may go? The winter saved Russia’s tail a couple of times, Back with Alexander the Great and the German’s in WWII. It just seems like that plastic might snap like a cracker in cold enough weather, or melt like cheese in a microwave oven in the heat. For what we are paying for these things I fully expect it to be worth the price we are paying. For examply did any of you know you need to change the slide spring in a Kimber Pro Carry after just 4000 rnds? For a $1200 dollar pistol i find this observe. Its 8,000 rnds on most of their other 1911′s which is also observe.
    Well I am sorry I snapped back on you Oddbod, honestly I never would have thought I would be seeking information for anything from KT, except possibly a used throw down. But these guys are the only one’s building what I am looking for. I don’t mean to be implementing they are a 2nd rate company, I put them right up there with Charter Arms, Hi Point, Rock Island etc etc and all these companies weapons work and work well.

  • herbstine

    matteo,
    I haven’t had a chance to get any shooting done in a while, but I’m working on changing that soon. I just got done clearing 21 acres on my ranch, so once I get the brushpiles burned, I’ll have a safe shooting area that will allow me ranges from point-blank out to 480 yards. As soon as I get that ready, it’ll be easier for me to just go out of the house & shoot at my leisure, instead of driving miles, paying fees & trying to shoot on a range built for munchkins. First thing will be to contunue firing my RFB & letting everyone know how it went.

  • Charlie7

    Got a call on Tax Day from my local gun shop. I had the owners wife on the hunt for an RFB for me…and it came in. I was there in 20 minutes and a half hour after that I walked out with an ACOG 4×32 equipped RFB. Ordered some extra mags and ammo online and await their arrival so I can make a trip to the range! Hoowaa!

  • jason norman

    does ne one know of any other bull pups that shoot the 7.62 51mm .308 win! ive seen alot of the ak version bull pups but i like this one because of the foward ejection and the fact it fires the .308 version of the 7.62. gives you alot more range for long shots this rifle makes an effective sniper rifle with the proper scope and decent range and offers the ability to take out multiple targets without worrying about reloading or using a bolt actions!! checking my options though but i want a bull pup! i have always been a 5.56 man m16 all the way! but these new bull pups are way more effective in combat situations! and from what ive seen for the price and the uses this is the best all round rifle out right now. would yall agree or what is your opinion id love to know before buying my new weapon!!i was looking as ps90 but just doesn’t have the power or versatility of the rfb. also was reading someone said that forward ejecting didnt work well all the time and led to jam ups anyone who owns one or seen one in action please tell me if this is true!i heard sum 1 say that downward eject is better but i dont see how laying in all ur shell casings in a fire fight if ur pinned down i thought foward eject was going to be the ansewer to hot brass all over the man next to you! and does kel tec have a patend on the foward eject? thanks everyone! norman

  • Thurston Bell

    Sept. 2010 just now hearing about this.

    Was told in 2005 that my 16″ Galil in .308 was the ultimate Rifle, by a SWAT Armorer.

    I added some extras and an ACOG.

    The .308 Bullpup was on my mind since the 1990′s.

    From my experience with the HK91 system with both the single and two stage recoil buffers, and reading the reviews of the RFB as well as watching the video I can only offer three changes.

    1. Raise the rail system commensurate to:

    2. A polymer cheek peice to protect the operators face and dental work from the jaring effects of the action.

    3. Disect and reverse engineer the dualstage HK91 recoil buffer. After watching the video of the people running this gun the recoil needs to be tamed. I recalled the two Rifles I had and found the Rifle with the twostage buffer to be litterly a different animal in regards to the felt recoil. It almost felt like an M4, not a 308. I would take such a product with all of these improvments even if it added 3″. I would expect absolute control from this.

    The only other option is for TDI to do a Kriss SuperV action on the FRB. WOW!

  • pki1955

    I got got a price of a little over $1300, not bad huh? Guys let’s be realistic with the .308 you are not going to require an instant sight on. With the .308 it should be one shot one kill. That’s why the .223 in the battle field is full auto because the little .223 just don’t get it done. Not only that with the .308 you can shot against hardened targets, ie, cars and armored vest with out that instant 2nd round. If you cannot take down a deer sized target with one shot you are pressing your chances. I’ll take a one shot, one kill any time even if I have to slow down a couple of tenths of a second to get back on target.

  • http://cmblake6.wordpress.com cmblake6

    Glad to see this thread still running. I’ve handled the weapon, and IMHO this thing ain’t bad at all! Makes me start trying to figure out what I don’t need anymore that I could either sell or trade!

  • Matteo

    @pki1955: your not going to require an instant sight on, wow where did you learn to shoot! I’d love to hit my targets without sighting in…so need to learn that. While the .308/ 7.62x51mm is a wonderful round it isn’t the magic round either. I have much love for the .308 as I own 4 rifles chambering it. Oh and FYI the .223 battle rifle commonly thought of as the M4/ M-16 isn’t a full auto rifle either it’s a 3 round burst select option. Unless your refering to the SAW(Squad automatic weapon) And it has little to do with a being a requirement since it chambers a smaller round! And I have been know to hunt dear with a .223 and have brought them down with one shot just like I’ve had a deer keep on trucking after being hit with a .308 round. I’m happy your happy about your new RFB. In any event I hope you enjoy your RFB as much as I enjoy mine!

  • Plink

    @pki1955

    Congrats. They’re still running in the $1,550 range here, when and if you can find one. I’m still waiting for the 24 inch version myself. Kel-Tec had this same problem getting their SU-16 series out though. They’re still rare. I hope they don’t keep this up with the RFB.

    There have sure been a lot of positive reports coming out from people who own the RFB. It’s looking like the gun to own.

  • AnointedSword

    Way too much kick for a CQC rifle. Oo

  • Oddbod

    “#
    AnointedSwordon 29 Jan 2011 at 4:11 pm

    Way too much kick for a CQC rifle. Oo”

    You must be recoil sensitive to think so (I shoot 3 gun with a FAL para).

  • Domain1

    Oddbod, you didnt say that I read anyway, do you own the RFB or did you get to just shoot one? If you purchased it, what do you say and for anyone that purchased one, was it a good investment do you find? Another thing thats been asked in this thread over and over again; Can you see whats in the chamber? Is there a rnd indicator? I have the FS-2000 and have no issues with the ejection tube, honestly I really like it, I am not worried about hitting my own brass, and if your carring the weapon muzzle down then there will be no brass to fall out and give away your position. But lets say you have a rnd chambered and you want to clear the chamber, does it have a breech, or does the rnd your removing from the chamber have to go out the ejection tube, or maybe out the magazine port? While this is certainly not ideal and I guess I could learn to live with it, but I do hope that you can eject a full unspent rnd other than it having to go out the ejecting tube. Ok, I watched the video and yea it looks like this thing has a good kick to it, even though some of the guys are reporting little more than a M4, I do believe its going to be quite abit more than a M4. But then the rifle is not but 7 lbs when a M1A1 runs around 14 lbs. so I would expect that you would feel it when you pulled the trigger. Kind of makes shooting it no fun after so many rnds, but when your just plinking you can put some padding between you and the butt like a towell or something. After shooting my Para Fal a lot of rnd it gets kind of unconfortable too and the padding thing works well. The only other thing to do is add some weight to the rifle. But I got to say, that it being almost weightless is one of the most attractive things about this weapon. I am not the largest frame person or the strongest, plus I hate to say it but I am getting older and I will never be as strong as I once was, but being able to grab this thing when its sitting almost anywhere in the vehicle and being able to pick it up fully loaded with one hand with swiftness till I can get the other hand on it and not strugle with it puts a lot of plus’s in the Pro column. And if for some reason you had to grab it in a emergency and fire it, I bet you want ever even feel that kick, kind of like the deer you use to shoot or possibly still do if your lucky. But I bet its loud, even though it has a full length barrel the end of the barrel is still so much closer to your ears and head that if you had to shoot it w/o ears on I bet your ears would ring while just plinking, but again almost un-noticable in an emergency situation, funny how that works is’nt it? Right now the black long gun market is just about flat, in fact the biggest seller right now is weapons like the Keltec pocket .380′s. But try to get a owner to buy one of these rifles to stock and its next to impossible but they will carry a rack of AR-15′s or AK’s and right now they are not moving well at all.

  • Emmeth

    It’s the DMR!

  • robert

    as for those how had been asking if it legal and aviable in canada yes and non restristed for huntimg.

    the vault in Vancouvert advertise it and also I had seen in cherching for the rfb in canada other have it as in Edmonton on the 97 ave as listed at 2400$ cad.

    been interested In the Rfb as big fan ofd bullpup as huting in bushy aera for as those rifles been more easy to bring arond.

    like the abidex of it but will wayt for the 24″ barel to come out.

    for those aking if it will be aviable in 223R or 6,8SPC or anny other calbres it will not for sure as I am writhing this, as I have E-mail week ago to Keltec for inquiring about it as I was wayting for it to come out in 7.62X39 for deer hunting as my range are more often betwen 30 to 50 yads situation to enconter deer verry privilegie in the matter. their answer was as so “we don’t have any plan in the presant to ofer the RFB in anny other caliber ” did also sugest that it will be aviable in 243 Winchester as a member of the 308 familie as it as been done with the M14, FN FAL, and other 308 semi-auto rifles.

    My other option as the 308 is more powerfull as my need is to have it rebareled in 243W as it is a 6mm that will do a perfect choice for me as it will be use as coyotes and deer as well as marmot controle.

    that said I will said do not be afraid of new ting or loke to option that can be done for more choices.

    sory for my bad writing alway be like this very bad at spelling.

  • robert

    my previous coment do not talk about defencive or combat as living in Canada it pointless if not talking as proibited to have anny firearms loded at homme.

    the law stipulation is as this

    the fierarms and amunition have to bee store separatly. (as it main that your amos can’t bee even in the same vault that your rifles is store) and the law also stipulate that your rifles or any firearms had to bee store in a vault desing for this purpose. if you ever store it together and the police come to our house for and inspection and find any firearms who are not store as required by the law you wil get tiket to jail ((do not pass go)) so it is in Canada

    As for suvival if I had only one choice and no ther I will probabli go for a 20ga shotgun.
    why? it will be ok for deer as well at puting down bear or cougar with a slog or multy shot, and a + as good varriety of birdshot for small game.

    If gryslie had to be in consideration it will be a 12 ga or even a 10ga.

    as been able to get the KSG in canada I be surprise as it loads at 15 shot and just considering that some shotgun are alredy prybited in canada as considered as combat for police or military use only a 15 shot shotgun will be definitvly proibited even with a 20″ barel who is in my choise the minimun length for a barel performance. it why I like bullpup short coming with longer standar barel..

  • robert

    Jason Normand

    At our quetion if other 308 bullpu had been made is yes.

    the first one I ever see was the Walther 2000 now discontinued some blog said that only a 100 or so had been made har to find and up to 10,000$ even 20,000$ was aviable in 308 and 300WM.

    the seconde find it in google few week ago is Russian look as prototype call CAP 614
    google ( world bullpup arms)

    the other semi was corvetion

    A) from AWC is I spell well the mame was base on the M14, tow model one stadar, one sniper, modernisation fron the Israelien covetion also from the M14 call M86.

    more recently

    Polish come out with the bor/alex tactical sporter but no info about aviability to civilian.(boltaction)

    AMP dsr-1 from Germanie (boltaction)

    Desert tactical from USA (boltaction)

    an other was a pompaction from England with was actioned by the moving of the pistolgrip insted of the forhand.

    other one from US was also a convetion of the M14 and new didn’t like the look so aven’t keep track of it.

    but as the drgonov had been also made in 308 wonder if the SVD vertion bullpup had been or not made in 308??

  • robert

    Jason

    I had been on the weeb this morning looking at bullpup

    and find back the info on the new kit for the M14 at shortfiles.com

    also those do I had forgot.

    keppler SV bullpup

    you could also google but is french ( bullpup arme) and I did find an interesting bullpup who had been made in france from Unique FMR but look that in don’t know who to put the pic in.

    also an eror of me the bullpup pomp-action was made in Germanie you will see the pic at bullpup arme on google.

    also had remember that durring the segond war germanie and US had experimented wit bullpup in US it was Garand to converte in bullpup their M1 Garand. find some rare pic of them to.

    but looking at semi-auto 308 fully ambidex only one existing is the KT RFB.

  • Matteo

    OMG what the hell is this crap with the GAWD awful spelling and grammar…seriously in this day and age if you have a computer you have some form of a spell check—-USE IT! Seriously not trying to be a troll but who wants to sit down and read something where you have to decypher someone else’s sentences. It’s like looking at something a 3rd grader would have wrote! We’re all adults here, so lets take a moment to proof read your posts to ensure it’s lucide and intelligible!

  • Oddbod

    Have you considered that the poster’s first language might not be English.
    I also suggest you spend a little time brushing up on your own spelling, grammar & punctuation, as your post is full of errors encompassing all three.

    Let us now return to discussing the RFB.

  • Matteo

    By the way, ran it through my programs. So all three are correct! So yeah, don’t think so. Unless it was put there intentionally for effect. Have a nice day Oddbod.

  • H.A.S.

    @Matteo: It’s ‘lucid’, not ‘lucide’.

  • fuelyvega

    Quit the whinning who cares if someone miss spells a word, you must go through life very aggrevated if it bothers you that much. I am here to see about the gun, want to find out if it is ergonomically better than the Centry Arms AK Bullpup (right length between trigger grip and butt to soulder). My friend had to cut his stock off as much as he could to fit his size (OK now but not perfect). I am looking to add a recoil pad so hope to find a dealer who has one for me to address this problem.
    PS, don’t bother correcting me if any grammer mistakes found, I DON”T CARE!
    “Only in America can you Work, Build Hot Rods and drag race them, Own and shoot guns and listen to any type of music and say what you believe and remain FREE!” Go USA

  • robert

    new find.

    as for those how are woried as for the foward ejection but stil like the bullpup and the ambidex ability as it on the RFB. I do recomend that they google> longziz#1 and have a loke at this genius invention on firearms..

    it not yet on the market he still working on it but it make me drolle a lot as I will not be able to put hand on it in canada as bullpup kit convertion as been pribited in canada..sniff sniff. for me bullpup lover for bush hunting or easyest tramprtation….
    enjoye loking at this gizmo… loke reely neat. be a real jowelle for us…

  • bOB

    Here in Florida it is illegal to hunt with a 223. Just thought I would give another reason for the 7.62

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