.223 Timbs: A Very Brief History

Left to right: The 7.62x25mm Tokarev, .223 Timbs, 9x19mm Parabellum, 5.7x28mm SS197, and .22 TCM.

In a recent Modern Personal Defense Weapon Calibers post, we discussed the .223 Timbs, a pseudo-wildcat load of the 7.62x25mm Tokarev that uses a sabot to fire a 50gr .22 caliber projectile at 2,000 feet per second or more. At the time, very little information was publicly available regarding the origin and purpose of the .223 Timbs, and what we knew at the time could just be summed up as “it was developed by Joseph Timbs and Quality Cartridge.” After the article ran, it gained the attention of none other than Joseph Timbs himself, who reached out to The Firearm Blog, and gave us the bar booth version of the story.

The story begins in the late 1990s and early 2000s, when the Clinton administration was pressuring gun manufacturers in the usual way; one particular case being FN, who had recently introduced a brand new pistol. That was the Five-seveN handgun, a companion to the P90 Personal Defense Weapon, which fired the same 5.7mm ammunition. This ammunition, specifically the steel-cored SS190 load, was capable of penetrating the light body armor worn by police officers. Under pressure from the administration, FN refused to sell the Five-seveN handgun to US civilians. At the same time, the Five-seveN was growing in popularity in gun magazines, giving US handgun shooters a bit of a case of the azure spheres, if the adults in the audience know what I mean.

FN’s decision did not make one Joseph Timbs very happy. He felt that this was an unfair denial to the American handgunner, and began looking for alternatives that would provide the same high velocity performance. Around the same time, Timbs read an article on the .224 BOZ, a wildcat necked down from 10mm Automatic cases. Timbs began working on the CZ-52, which was running between $100-$125 at the time. Timbs thought he might be able to do the same thing by loading a 7.62x25mm case with a sabot. It’s difficult to miss the hacker spirit behind giving every person who could afford the cheapest surplus handgun on the market access to a high velocity round that “The Man” wanted to ban.

To develop his idea, Timbs turned to Pete Cardona of Quality Cartridge. The initial experiments used a standard 55gr FMJ, but they discovered that this projectile was too long to be adequately stabilized by the twist rate of the CZ-52 pistol. Instead, they turned to a commercial 50gr jacketed soft point, which Pete seated in a grey polymer sabot on top of about 5 grains of Hodgdon Titegroup. This was the .223 Timbs.

The .223 Timbs received some publicity at the time, but it eventually faded into obscurity. Which is a shame, as it’s a truly interesting high performance round that offers better performance than many rounds developed in the subsequent fifteen years.

Who knows, though? Maybe the .223 Timbs story isn’t over yet.



Nathaniel F

Nathaniel is a history enthusiast and firearms hobbyist whose primary interest lies in military small arms technological developments beginning with the smokeless powder era. In addition to contributing to The Firearm Blog, he runs 196,800 Revolutions Per Minute, a blog devoted to modern small arms design and theory. He is also the author of the original web serial Heartblood, which is being updated and edited regularly. He can be reached via email at nathaniel.f@staff.thefirearmblog.com.


Advertisement

  • .223 Timbs was always a really cool cartridge.

    If there were modern double stack handguns in 7.62×25, I suspect we would see a resurgence in popularity for the caliber.

    • iksnilol

      Oh yes.

      Heavy subsonic 30 caliber loads for quiet stuff, next mag saboted 5.56 bullets ready to tear apart whatever needs tearing apart.

      • ostiariusalpha

        And no barrel changes or blown up guns, unlike 5.56 NATO/.300 BLK. Sabots just make a lot of things easier, you do need to set your twist rate for whichever bullet requires the most spin stabilization though.

        • PK

          “you do need to set your twist rate for whichever bullet requires the most spin stabilization though.”

          Part of what I’m planning is to figure out just what twist is best for which weights, in the real world. Sabots make things a bit strange, for sure, but if I can find something that stabilizes across various velocities and weights, that will be a very useful data point going forward.

          • gwood

            I really doubt that bullet and sabot are spinning at the same rpm…

          • ostiariusalpha

            The actual rpm is determined by muzzle velocity and twist rate, so a light, small caliber bullet in a sabot will have a different rpm than a full bore bullet. Or do you mean the sabot and bullet aren’t spinning at the same rpm when they exit the barrel together? Because they are.

          • gwood

            Harold Vaughn measured core slippage in regular jacketed rifle bullets. What do you think the coefficient of friction is between a copper jacket and a polymer sabot?

          • ostiariusalpha

            The lead in the core separating from the jacket and causing slippage is a problem in very higher velocity (e.g. high rpm) bullets and is mostly blamed on either contaminants left between the two during manufacture or soft, pure lead melting from the heat transmitted through the jacket, both of which act as lubricant under the jacket. There are plenty of lead core jackets that are constructed not to slip in the slightest even from an overbore cartridge. None of that applies here though. Even from a .30-06, sabotted bullets are very consistant, so it’s rather unlikely that a .223 Timbs is going to generate enough rpms to cause slippage.

          • noob

            Very worst case, just make the plastic sabot stay with the bullet. You don’t have to use a **discarding** sabot to use a sabot. The Russian SP10 bullet uses a gilded sabot/jacket around a penetrator core which allows the jacket to separate on impact with armour and not before. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/83a5d512ef115da0520150866e1e0d8085432ece29bdae09c70d5dfa0abeb454.jpg

          • ostiariusalpha

            Another simple solution would be to mold a couple of “teeth” inside the sabot that would seat into corresponding indentations in the base of the bullet. You could even have a special die that impresses the detents on lead boolits.

          • Tassiebush

            I hadn’t thought of that but lead projectiles in a sabot don’t strip the bore and therefore can probably go significantly faster. I wonder what velocity does exposed lead melt at?

          • ostiariusalpha

            I’ve seen soft point bullets fired from a rifle that have no deformation of the lead tip. While I’m sure there’s some heating, I don’t think there’s enough velocity from the .223 Timbs to seriously effect the aerodynamic properties of a boolit.

            This infrared capture of a bullet in flight shows some heating at the tip from the supersonic velocity, but most of the friction heat is residual from the barrel, as shown by the glowing rifling marks on the shank of the bullet. The base is also showing some heat from the superheated gases.
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/68f31d6c1662b1cae8e5cdab52aa7a94cbbaaceec141f40697cb369d88967dc8.jpg

          • Tassiebush

            That’s really interesting! Thanks for sharing!

          • ostiariusalpha

            I think that straight-up centrifugal force might be more of a limiting factor than aerodynamic heating.

          • Tassiebush

            Sorry I’m not quite understanding. Do you mean in flight or in interaction with the bore?

          • ostiariusalpha

            Kind of both. The longer the bullet, the more rapidly it has to spin to achieve gyroscopic stability. I can see a high velocity/high BC bullet coming apart inside the barrel or just past the muzzle from centrifugal shearing if it is composed purely of lead or a lead alloy.

          • Tassiebush

            Thanks I’m following now. I guess the really interesting question then is how fast could one be pushed with a sabot before any problems?!

          • ostiariusalpha

            One of these guys was taking 55gr. boolits up to 4300ft/s (1311m/s) without them self-destructing, so the velocity must be pretty incredible for it to happen.

            http://castboolits.gunloads.Com/showthread.php?25727-30-cal-Sabot-s-and-22-cal-cast-boolits

          • Tassiebush

            That is a very cool bit of reading! I like the bit about backing off to 4000fps to achieve 1moa groups with cast projectiles from wheel weights. Basically accuracy is just fine using a sabot at very high velocity.

          • Tassiebush

            I just looked up some sabots and for bulk volume you can get it for 8 cents US per sabot buying 5k or an exorbitant 11 cents per sabot if you only buy 100.
            http://www.sabotreloadingpro.com/product/15222150
            That guy in the forum link you gave was using wheel weights for material so projectiles produced this way would be incredibly cheap and if you buy 5k sabots I doubt any ammo drought would ever be an issue for projectiles.
            I must admit it makes the idea of a 30cal to do it all seem very appealing!

          • Amplified Heat

            I’ve heard of 25-06 and other barrel burner rounds not making it to the 100yd target for this reason; just a ‘puff’ and weird sound halfway down the range, and lots of little shrapnel holes all over the target

          • Amplified Heat

            I’m sure it’s more an issue with polymer tipped 25-06, such that it is an issue. I suspect it is to some degree, but very localized. That thermal image is nowhere near high enough resolution to capture the very point that the compression shockwave is radiating from; it is likely much hotter at that very tip than you’d think (and even worse for a flat/blunt nosed object which generates a stronger shock). My understanding is it contributes to inaccuracy, but I’d bet not as much as the sabot separation inconsistency does.

          • Amplified Heat

            That’s basically what powder coating of lead bullets is. IIRC, it isn’t so much speed, but heat that causes the lead to melt & accumulate. Coated bullets nearly approach jacketed ones in speed capability (they still don’t like magnum pressures, though)

          • Edeco

            Could maybe get a 1″ section of barrel, not sure what would work best, but press the bullets through to engrave the outside. Swaging operation basically. Which presumably would give more bite inside the sabot.

          • Amplified Heat

            Even easier, just use smooth bore and fin-stabilization; done. You can basically run as fast as you care to at that point, too.

          • ostiariusalpha

            Fins are a massive pain in the butt on bullets, they’re even less worth the effort than just upping your consistency with the sabots in a rifled barrel. Flechettes take to fin-stabilization well though, but they become overly long in a intermediate cartridge. Maybe in a longer action, precision firearm you could combine a flechette with a cup sabot and still have plenty of propellant behind it to get it up to the proper velocities.

          • Amplified Heat

            I think he means that the twist needed by the fat subsonic likely isn’t the same for the javelin poodle shooter variant. I would submit that although the common twist is a design constraint, you’d still have enough freedom to choose a projectile length for several configurations to be viable (but maybe your javelin has to be solid copper vs. lead core)

          • RazorHawk

            It is not bullet weight that determines what twist you need to use, but bullet length.

          • PK

            Fair point. For a given weight/material, it’s longer for smaller calibers. The 55gr, even the 50gr, .224″ bullets are a lot longer than similar .30 caliber pistol bullets, that’s for sure!

      • Anonymoose

        Teppo Jutsu did a thing called the Moscow Match where they put heavy bullets in 7.62×25 Tokarev. They converted some AR15s, M1 Carbines, and Taurus PT92s to it.

    • Houston Moore

      There is the PPSH 43….

      • PK

        The PPS/ППС is from 1943. The PPSh/ППШ, from 1941, is something else and designed by a totally different person.

        • noob

          There is one thing the FiveSeven did well as a pistol – a magazine with a double stack-double feed layout so you could load it by pressing straight down into the magazine instead of down-back-down.

          Hmm how about this for an idea: a double stack-double feed pistol of the same dimensions as a compact glock, but equipped with a selector that could allow a binary trigger. it might allow for very very fast double taps (to get over the “not enough lead on target” objections), sidestep the atf anxiety about machine guns and end the longstanding machinepistol usability issue of controllability.

          • PK

            Easier said than done, especially now that you have a patent to avoid for such a FCG.

            At least the problem of double stack, double feed magazines isn’t too much of an issue. I got a lot of very helpful guidance on making some mags, we’ll see how that part of it goes, at least!

          • noob

            Hope it goes well! And in when the patent expires a new class of binary practical shooting might be born.

      • Renato H M de Oliveira

        PPSh is a submachine gun.
        But making a double stack in it would be easier than doing a double stack 10mm Auto, since COAL is the same but base diameter is about 1mm smaller.

        • PK

          Overall length of 10x25mm is 32mm max, while 7.62x25mm is 34.3mm max. It doesn’t quite work, I tried.

          • ToddB

            Factory 7.62×25 sort of fits in a 1911, it will cycle, just can’t fit more than 3 in the magazine. You can shorten them adjusting the load data to compensate. My 1911 loves em. But you need a 40cal or 9mm slide. Doubt a 45 slide would be able to grab the rim. Might not eject them very well either.

      • RazorHawk

        You mean pps-43?

    • Mike

      Modern double stack 7.62×25, YES PLEASE

      • DW

        Tokarev is designed in 1933. We now need 2033. Not metro 2033 though.

        • Giolli Joker

          I’d jump more on a modern, double stack, CZ-52.

    • Stan Darsh

      The Dominion Arms P762 fits the bill, but it is verboten.

      • Paul Rain

        Why is it that everything good the Chicoms make is restricted?

        • Giolli Joker

          So you’ll keep believing they make nothing good. 😛

      • PK

        I can’t even source magazines to import to the USA. I’ve looked!

        • Stan Darsh

          You weren’t kidding, damn! You would think that the Canadian dealers that stock the P762 would have additional mags for them, but I can’t find a single one.

          • PK

            What frustrates me most is that even when they were first brought into Canada years back, I couldn’t find mags for sale.

    • gunsandrockets

      Heck, why not even a modern single stack handgun?

      • Amplified Heat

        Why do you think? “It’s an answer to a question no one was asking.” “Most fireproof paper hat.” “Doesn’t the 357SIG do everything it does better?” “No track record with SOCOM.” “Even with hollow points, I bet it only does icepick wounds.”

        I personally think if Glock made a stretch-frame G17 it’d be a boon for competition guys, since they could run hot Largo, Super, or even 9×23 with comps, and the rest of us could shoot Tokarev or Reed Express. Basically, it’d have the potential to cover a very wide ballistic range of handgun needs.

        • PK

          If they even did a short run of mags and frames/slides for longer cartridges, I think the demand would be there to sell them just to custom builders. I know I’d buy a few to play with!

        • gunsandrockets

          “I personally think if Glock made a stretch-frame G17…”

          Uh, isn’t that the Glock 20?

          Personally, I don’t care for the oversized grip of most double column mag 9mm handguns.

    • A Hill
      • Canada, quietly doing it better yet again.

      • mosinman

        will someone in Canada throw one of these across the border to me ? i’ll build a cash catapult

  • Christian Hedegaard-Schou

    I thought the .224 BOZ was a necked down .45acp?

    • Rnasser Rnasser

      Nope… from 10 auto

      • Giolli Joker

        Initially 10 Auto, then 9 Luger.

  • JoshuaK27

    Kinda surprised he used titegroup, I was always told to use that particular powder for plinking. Power pistol might have fared better

  • PK

    “Who knows, though? Maybe the .223 Timbs story isn’t over yet.”

    Well, I’ve got a 1-in-7″ twist blank to chamber next week, and then I’ll see about the accuracy issues… the last time you brought this up, it was mentioned as a possible solution to my shotgun-like patterning.

    If that doesn’t do it, I have a bunch of other twist rates coming to me as they get produced. If 1-in-7″ doesn’t do it, I’m not too hopeful for the others.

    • ostiariusalpha

      Good luck!

      • PK

        Well, worst case scenario I end up with a spare 7.62x25mm barrel. Not exactly a bad outcome, even if it doesn’t end up working for this project.

    • Tassiebush

      I really hope it works for you! If there is a sweet spot rate of twist that works well for .223timbs and okay for the other regular 7.62×25 and special subsonic loadings then it would probably make for a great load for a handy trail gun/truck gun in a short little carbine.

      • PK

        No kidding, and I’m hopeful. We’ll see what happens… but if it works out, I suspect that a lot more people will be interested in some custom barrels!

      • supergun

        My EAA SAR 45 that holds 15 45s will do as my truck gun.

        • Tassiebush

          Fair enough. It’s about wallabies and sick livestock for me and a different legal framework so a carbine a tiny bit longer than 26″ would be my preference.

          • supergun

            I agree with you 100%. But it is nice to have that beautiful 45 with 185 gr zombies traveling at over 1,000 feet a sec. Got it for 374 brand new out the door. A $600 pistol. Great to live in America.

          • Tassiebush

            I envy you on that. I’m guessing that would be for self defence. I must say if handgun hunting was legal here i would certainly want one configured for it.

          • supergun

            Sounds like you are from Australia. CDNN has these SAR 45s. They are in Texas. I live in GA. They had a one day special on this $600 gun. $374 and free shipping. I could not turn that down. These pistols are made for the military and police. I picked up 5 extra magazines for $100. They normally sell for $35 each. I quit hunting animals about 30 years ago. Change of heart. But there are other animals out there more dangerous than the creatures in the woods. I like your word, “vermin”. Dr. Michael Savage used that word to describe the previous president.

          • Tassiebush

            That’s a very nice deal! Yeah I’m in Tasmania. Wallaby are introduced in New Zealand too so you will occasionally hear people there talking about it also. If you were hunting wallaby you probably would have stopped a decade earlier. The females generally have one or two joeys in the pouch! 😉

          • supergun

            Are the gun laws there as crazy as in the forsaken land of australia?

          • Tassiebush

            Haha I think we’re forsaken but then I look at your lack of border control, gang problems, health care and diversity hire police who startle easily and shoot Australian hippy women (yes I know they can be annoying but still) and I wonder if you guys are just as forsaken or more so than us?! Every nation has it’s merits and negatives. But yes it’s stupidly restrictive here as with the rest of Australia regarding guns and I think we’re moving in the wrong direction generally when it comes to personal freedom. We have to have gun licences, our guns are registered (they haven’t managed that information securely either), we can’t own semi automatic long arms or pump action shotguns and legally speaking self defence is not a lawful reason to get a licence or buy a firearm. It wasn’t always so stupid but unfortunately our country is very urban and changing demographics don’t seem to appreciate the same way of life.
            If you actually meant NZ then they’re a bit more sensible than us. Basically they have licences and some restrictions on guns in similar ways to Canada but a suppressor is just a firearm accessory and it’s a hunting and fishing paradise by all accounts. They’re basically just a better version of Australia as far as I can see but don’t let them know I said that.

          • supergun

            You are a sport. It is amazing that we can communicate so readily and easily across the World. What you say is true about Country of many small nations. Sometimes it is hard orchestrate all the logistics. But there are thousands of places in America that are dream places to live in. It does not have those difficulties that you comment about. The media only points out the negatives of our Nation. They have no Love for THESE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. I happen to live in one of those dream places of many. The other places you speak of are full of the “living dead”. What a shame. I am glad that you are happy where you are at. I am glad to be an AMERICAN. Even though we came from England, we are a different breed. Remember not to believe what the media prints. 95% of what they print are LIES. They do not print the TRUTH that is out there. Long live America. Once the 2nd AMENDMENT goes down, then all the rest of the AMENDMENTS will follow. Once AMERICA goes down, then all the rest of the free nations will follow. Long live America.

          • Tassiebush

            True such problems tend to have an impact limited to specific places and I think a lot of parts of your nation would be pretty wonderful to live in. American property prices seem very reasonable too as an aside. I don’t doubt for a moment that the media misrepresents things. Whether left or right (if those terms still mean anything) media tends to sell more copies by painting the worst picture possible of things and it’s also usually confined to whatever narrative it pushes.

          • supergun

            What you say is very true. I am sure that both of us live in nice places. It is oblivious that our media wishes not to report on the truth of the matter. It is almost like they own the democrats. In reality, they are owned by some of the richest extreme liberals in the world. They constantly attack what good is being done here in the United States. But most people know what their agenda is. That is why President Trump is President. The media has done a lot of damage the last few years, especially the last 8 years before President Trump took office. We will always have evil with us.

          • Edeco

            Yeah, I mean, item for item I don’t even know enough to say. But moreover it’s like driving 100 mph on a winding 45 mph road in Porsche while sober, as opposed to doing it while loaded in a Chevy Blazer, smacking around kids in the back seat. Like, we have this huge, mechanically-questionable thing, with momentum built up and our collective mind is too sloppy and distracted to steer it. Whereas some othe countries, the social cobtrols are probably still more active than would suit me but more tractible.

          • Tassiebush

            I really like that imagery!

          • No one

            Lol at the irony of a slimy piece of —- like Michael Savage calling anyone else “Vermin.

            The guy is the dictionary definition of a waste of oxygen.

          • supergun

            Actually he was talking about people like you. You fit that definition perfect. When the “living dead” outnumber the Americans, then this Great Nation will fall. Hopefully, we can guard our way of life from vermin like you.

          • No one

            Take a look in the mirror sometime you imbecile, Michael Savage and his brain dead followers like you are literally the dumbest things on 2 legs. (Or maybe 4 with the amount of knuckle dragging I imagine you do may count.)

            He and his die-hard cult followers are cancer.

          • supergun

            You are the “living dead” of America that roams seeking to destroy our way of life in America. And you don’t even know that you are cancer that infects America.

          • No one

            Wow, great job simply parroting my statements because you have zero of your own to counter with other than baseless assumptions.

            But please go around calling others living dead, when you’re such a zombie you don’t even have an original thought, let alone statement in your head other then what your cult leader tells you.

            Go on though, the irony is so rich I could buy the world with it. Be a good little cult follower now!

          • supergun

            I can understand why you think and comment like you do. Being deceived of the truth can do that to you. And that is really sad. But that is how you liberals think and live. I feel sorry for you. When someone like you is deceived, you really don’t know that you are in that situation. You can’t think clearly. But that is a danger to the principles that has kept this great Nation Free.

          • No one

            Wow, you actually do talk like nothing more than a brainwashed cult follower who just parrots back what I say, and yet you keep up with the thought process that everyone else are the deluded “living dead.” Science could learn something from projection and cognitive dissonance of this magnitude!

            Also, I knew you were going to pull the ” You called out my mindless bile, therefore you must be a LIBERAL because how else could anyone think what I say is trash?!”

            Guess again heaven’s gate.

          • supergun

            Do you normally mumble jumble all the time. You need to get off that stuff. It will turn you into a mindless *******. If you don’t have anything else to comment on intelligently, please go aggravate the hell out of someone else.

          • No one

            The fact you’re getting aggravated over a fight with mere words that you started shows how feeble minded you really are in the first place. do you need a safe space you special little snowflake?

            Also, LOL at you complaining about “intelligence”, have you ever heard the saying that the dead can’t tell that you’re dead? (you seem to be obsessed with them), same thing with being stupid.

            Take the hint.

          • Suppressed

            The “LIBERAL” attack is this dude’s modus operandi.

  • Cyborg Fred

    It would be interesting to see the fouling created by the plastic sabot after a few hundred rounds.

    • There wouldn’t be any.

      • PK

        I’ve certainly never seen any.

      • Cyborg Fred

        Is there a definitive answer as to what the sabot material is? (Eabco manufactured?) Titegroup has a very high Nitroglycerine content and loves to burn/melt exposed lead bullet bases when pushed 35,000+ psi. Now this polymer may be more resilient. I find it very interesting that you have an absolute answer. Have you done a lot of testing with saboted projectiles? https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/aedf785be62d7e0e594038ef1211e04ee13aaf9d517df10220ad2a6721b22a5e.jpg

        • Nylon, I imagine.

          • FWIW: Even shotguns can have issues with polymer fouling from shot cups and wads. Admittedly, that could be due to the specific polymer formulation of the typical shotshell cup/wad vs. the sabots.

          • Users of sabots in muzzleloaders also experience polymer fouling.

          • Amplified Heat

            It’s usually also after a very large number of rounds, and isn’t very hard to remove

          • However, shotguns are operating at lower pressures and velocities. This fouling even occurs without the added friction from engraving rifling.

          • Amplified Heat

            I’ve also seen dozens each of 9mm, 5.56, and even 308 rounds run PC lead bullets without fouling. It isn’t an issue with the right polymer (PC is generally polyester vs nylon which I believe is what most wads are made of)

        • Amplified Heat

          Most likely Nylon. The stuff is slippery & doesn’t like to gall or adhere to metal, even at higher temperatures.

  • RazorHawk

    About time ammo makers started making this cartridge in the millions.

    Glock should make a Glock 50 in this caliber, before the 1911 makers beat them to it.

    A PCC in this chambering would be cool too.

    And bill clinton is not “the man” but the pervert.

    • .45

      Clinton is a pervert for sleeping with lots of women? Maybe I missed something, I was a kid when it all went down.

      • ostiariusalpha

        Smoking vag-juice cigars might be a bit on the kinky side. 😎

  • smitty26

    As I wrote in my email to Nathaniel F last week :this idee is stolen .
    Two Dutch gun enthousiast made this cardrigde before Timms did and all
    was published in the Dutch weapon magazine :AK56.

    • Lots of ideas are had over and over. Doesn’t make them stolen. I doubt Joseph Timbs has ever read the magazine in question.

  • Some Rabbit

    Off topic but… Why must TFB put an annoying subscription modal window on every damn page? Just put a subscription link in the sidebar (or at least limit it to the homepage). Why force readers to click away that eyesore for every article?

    • Amplified Heat

      Gotta gets them internet monies, yo…

  • Audie Bakerson

    Perhaps related is how insurgents are making actual Tokarev food from the massive amount of 5.56 brass we leave behind.

    • RazorHawk

      Solid brass bullets?

  • Triplanetary

    For God’s will somebody make a bolt carbine in this calibre ?

    • Amplified Heat

      How about ammo? Could someone make ammo in this chambering, at least?

  • Stan Darsh

    Actually, Norinco was forbidden to sell anything other than shotguns in 1993 due to a re-examined interpretation of the “sporting” clause.

  • Amplified Heat

    Sabots basically allow you to cheat your way into increased energy transfer to a projectile without having to endure high recoil (a bullet generally can’t get short/fat enough & still fly right for the projectile mass to stay the same over a large caliber range), which is exactly the limiting factor for short pistol barrels. I have long though that sabots would be ideally suited for handgun rounds, since they are efficient in short barrels, and long range accuracy which is reduced by the sabot being shed is less important. At handgun distances, even the sabot is likely to do some kind of damage, so its mass isn’t all a waste (I still believe squeeze bore would yield an even more efficient projectile, likely long enough to tumble & fragment upon impact as well, but with a very high BC that would sail a long way and pierce armor easily)

  • Amplified Heat

    IIRC, there were also some rather interesting political aspects surrounding that affair (think Leland Yee, but from Arkansas)

  • Beo Jar

    Veterans in Michigan that I know were doing this in 1994. Loading the 7.62X25 Tokarev with a 62gr .223 in a discarding sabot (pronounced “say-bow”) loading it in a CZ52 and getting 2000-2100 ft per second. At this level broken firing pins weren’t uncommon. I was never interested in reloading, however I did appreciate the American ingenuity and entrepreneurial spirit. A 21st Century Blaster from a Czech obsolescent pistol.

  • jcitizen

    I’ve never seen a sabot round that had any accuracy, but then they were rifle rounds in rifle cases, with rifle powder – who knows?