6th Marines to Test M27s in Tricked-Out “Über Squad”, but Are They Already Behind the Curve?

Original Caption: "U.S. Marine Corps Pfc. Skyler W. Johnson, an automatic rifleman assigned to Fox Company, 2nd Battalion, 3rd Marine Regiment (2/3), fires the M27 Infantry Automatic Rifle (IAR) during various courses of fire at Range 105-A aboard Camp Wilson, Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center Twentynine Palms, Calif., Jan. 20, 2015." U.S. Marine Corps photo by Lance Cpl. Aaron S. Patterson, public domain

According to a Military.com article, an element of 1st Battalion, 6th Marines will be deploying a 13-man squad of Infantry fully equipped with M27 IARs, suppressors, drum magazines, and other pieces of experimental gear. Called the “Über Squad”, it will be chosen from companies within 1/6, and will use the gear through an entire workup, training, and deployment cycle to Europe. From Military.com:

As the Marine Corps continues to emphasize innovation and experiments with new gear, service officials are getting ready to equip a single infantry squad with an enviable range of equipment, from suppressors to polymer drum mags and special operations-issue hearing protection.

Wade, the gunner, or weapons officer, for 2nd Marine Division out of Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, said the plan is for the 13-person unit to keep all the gear for a full training workup and deployment cycle to somewhere in Europe.

The squad will come from Lejeune’s 1st Battalion, 6th Marines, though the originating company has yet to be chosen.

 

For this effort, every Marine in the Über Squad will be equipped with an M27; a suppressor; and Ops-Core helmets used by U.S. Special Operations Command with built-in hearing protection systems that muffle noises loud enough to damage eardrums, while magnifying other sounds to maintain troops’ situational awareness.

“This capability protects [Marines’] hearing from high explosives and other loud noises we can’t mitigate in combat,” Wade said. “But digitally, it allowed you to hear ambient sound.”

Experiments to date with suppressors on whole infantry units have shown they work well — so well that a squad leader might not be able to locate his or her own squad by sound on the other side of a hill.

“Not only do we need hearing protection, we need hearing enhancement,” Wade said.

He also plans to fit the section of company-level M240 medium machine guns supporting the squad with suppressors, using equipment borrowed from SOCOM to suppress both barrels of the guns.

Wade said he is looking forward to seeing his Über Squad contend with Range 400, one of the Corps’ most dynamic ranges and the only one for which overhead fire is authorized.

“For … 30 years, I’ve been running Range 400,” he said. “This is the first time I’ve ever ran it with a maneuver element that is suppressed and a company-level machine gun element that is also suppressed.”

As a bonus, Marines in the squad will be equipped with Magpul 60-round polymer drum magazines. Military.com reported back in January that various conventional and special operations units were testing the drum in small quantities as a substitute for traditional 30-round magazines.

While the drums offer a lot of portable firepower, there’s also a question of weight to consider. Wade said he planned to set the unit up with about 100 of the drums and let each Marine figure out how many he needed to fight effectively.

“What I think I’m going to find is that, with the ingenuity of the lance corporal, everything is going to find its place,” he said. “My assumption is they’re ultimately going to be carrying one [drum].”

The effort to equip this squad will take shape over the next month, Wade said.

Be sure to click through and read the whole thing.

While the 1st Battalion, 6th Marines’ “Über Squad” experiment demonstrates the pragmatic, can-do attitude that sets USMC procurement apart, they may already be behind the development curve. The M27, though a very good rifle that has served the Corps well, is not the best weapon the USMC could choose moving forward. This is especially true given that it has problems with the M855A1 round that the Corps is expected to adopt in the near future, something publicly acknowledged by the Commanding General for the Marine Corps Systems Command, Brig. Gen. Joseph Shrader, in his testimony to the Senate Armed Services Committee recently:

The testing that we’re doing [shows] that round… causes some durability issues for our new Infantry Automatic Rifle that we fielded, the M27.

In the same testimony, Marine Corps Combat Development Command CG Lt. Gen. Walsh indicated that M855A1 would be the Corps’ round of the future, and that it is already in use with deployed Marines:

Indications are that we’re trying to go in the direction that the Army is – in fact right now our Marines that are deployed into Afghanistan with our weapons are using the Army round.

Given that the logistics benefits of being able to use the Army’s standard round for free when in theater is too great to ignore, this seems to be a serious oversight within an effort to increase the number of M27 rifles with now known durability issues.

It’s interesting to note that the recent USMC RFI for new rifles and accessories which was released by the Weapons Training Battalion at Quantico does account for this problem:

Bolt carrier group optimized for M855A1 use with Picatinny Durable Solid Lubricant coating or any similar variations thereof

– Modular bolt/barrel/magazine & magazine insert conversion packages for caliber changes (compatibility with A059, AB49, AB57 [M855A1], Mk255 Mod 0, etc) and optimized for respective caliber, charge, burn rate, and pressure curve (barrel threads can be 1/2X28 or 5/8X24)

In contrast to an expansion of the M27 fleet, the MTD RFI seems to be in-line with M4 modernization efforts underway by the USASOC, the Naval Surface Warfare, and the United States Air Force; all of which point the way not to a new rifle like the M27, but to an advanced variant of the existing M4 platform that would provide the same or better capability at lower cost and effort.





Nathaniel F

Nathaniel is a history enthusiast and firearms hobbyist whose primary interest lies in military small arms technological developments beginning with the smokeless powder era. In addition to contributing to The Firearm Blog, he runs 196,800 Revolutions Per Minute, a blog devoted to modern small arms design and theory. He is also the author of the original web serial Heartblood, which is being updated and edited regularly. He can be reached via email at nathaniel.f@staff.thefirearmblog.com.


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  • Brett baker

    Ditch the guns from the company that last great design is as old as me (44), and the warheads might have something.

  • Juggernaut

    “Stumtruppen” would be a cooler name than Über Squad

    • Major Tom

      I prefer Arditi. Less association with German imperialists.

      Plus extremely cool motto: “O la vittoria o tutti accopatti!”

      • B-Sabre

        Oh God, I can see a squad of jarheads trying to pronounce that motto now…
        (Bersaglieri (marksmen) may be a better choice.)
        What’s that whirring noise? It’s Giuseppe Garibaldi spinning in his tomb.

        • Major Tom

          They already know a portion of Italian pronunciation via their Latin: “semper fidelis”.

          Italian pronunciation is in many ways similar to Spanish.

          • int19h

            Judging by how every single Marine I’ve met so far says “semper fi”, no, they don’t know their Latin.

        • Brett baker

          I nominate TECHMOFO’s myself.

    • n0truscotsman

      The term is very bad though, especially for a military that had people executed in the Ardennes 60 years ago as prisoners of SS.

      • Sermon 7.62
        • valorius

          Honestly as an Army veteran and American, the use of the SS flash by US snipers is deeply troubling to me.

          • Uniform223

            That was a USMC Scout Sniper unit who by pure coincidence had a logo exceedingly similar to the infamous Nazi SS…

          • Sermon 7.62
          • Uniform223

            Sorry my Russian “friend”. There was a whole media uproar about this…

            http://www.theblaze.com/news/2012/02/09/u-s-marines-posed-with-flag-resembling-nazi-ss-symbol-in-afghanistan/

          • Sermon 7.62

            “The Marine Corps is currently investigating a group of Marines recorded on video urinating on the dead bodies of Taliban fighters…”

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f6eceff2dd86c3ae56ae3b9232ef16afd093ca532b4339439054321f6fcc7e74.gif

          • Uniform223

            This is cute… I bet your Kremlin handlers are paying you extra today to make the US Military out to be this evil organization.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Excuse me?

            You referenced that article and this is a quote from it 🙂

          • Uniform223

            That was a different scandal that has since been dealt with. In the US Military we actually punish our service members for misconduct. I don’t know how it is in the Russian military.

          • Sermon 7.62

            I have never heard about Russian soldiers pissing on people, or seen pictures of Russian soldiers torturing prisoners

          • Kivaari

            During the Russian adventure in Afghanistan we heard of quite a bit of torture and killings. I believe most of what I heard. That said, Americans, have much more in common with Russians than we do with Afghanis. We wont win in Afghanistan because the local culture simply will not adapt to a modern standard.

          • Sermon 7.62

            During the Afgan campaign, a lot of propaganda films were made in the US about the mean Russians killing and torturing peaceful peasants. I remember one such film about a gang of Russians terrorizing and raping the locals, burning them with flamethrowers, etc. I even remember the name of the film: “The Beast” 🙂

            You should understand it’s all bullcrap. Lies upon lies.

          • Kivaari

            I remember that film. I didn’t form any opinions based up it. Although I enjoyed it. We had nothing in common with Aghanis, yet we supported them. We still have nothing in common with Afghanis, yet we support them.

          • Sermon 7.62

            No one supports them. It’s about the poppies, the fields of opium and pharmaceutical companies. Morphium is made of opium and nothing else

          • mosinman

            but you will believe anything negative about the US military

          • Sermon 7.62

            No. But I’ll check the facts as much as I can and see if something is true or not.

          • El Duderino

            If winning = they become a Western democracy with real rule of law, I totally agree with you. No nation with a primarily Muslim population can seem to pull that off for very long. Turkey is in a hurry to ditch that model it appears.

          • Brett baker

            Because whoever released the photos would be “retired”😉

          • Sermon 7.62

            Because in Russia doing something like that is a disgrace and no such photos exist or existed in the past. The Russians don’t cut people’s heads off, or humiliate prisoners. Right now in Ukraine there are some people who were prisoners of war in Donbass. These people speak, so… No complaints

          • valorius

            The Russians poisoned all the wells in Afghanistan when they were there. Saints that they are.

          • Sermon 7.62

            The Russians are not saints. No one is.

            But I hear such accusations for the first time. In the Well-poisoning article on Wikipedia it is not mentioned, and I know some Afgans who seem to rather like the Russians than not. I guess that means that it isn’t true. Some people I know, the Russians who were there, also said that it’s bullcrap.

            I bet it was reported on CNN or some other nice fake news channel.

          • valorius

            And during the 70s -80s the Afghans hated Russians and loved Americans.

            Try googling “Russians poisoned wells in afghanistan” and then spend the next several hours reading all the well documented instances and links.

          • Sermon 7.62

            I did that before answering. No “well documented instances” found.

            All I see is this:

            “In 1983 Congressman Charlie Wilson, working with the CIA, provided them with US portable surface-to-air Stinger missiles… In response, the Soviets bombed villages and farms, poisoned wells, killed livestock, and tortured and murdered civilians. Over half the Afghan population fled their homes.”

            “Just across the border from the mujahideen camps and the great refugee centers in Pakistan, the Soviets were busy carpet bombing villages, poisoning wells, killing livestock, causing over half the Afghan population to flee their homes. Perhaps it wasn’t yet genocide, but the Red Army was capable of almost anything.”

            The first quotation is from “Walking the Precipice: Witness to the Rise of the Taliban in Afghanistan”, the second is from “Charlie Wilson’s War”.

            Two books. Same phrases. You know what black propaganda is?

          • valorius

            Funny, i found numerous sources, including a 1982 New York Times expose’.

          • Sermon 7.62
          • valorius

            You asked for sources, i provided dozens of em. I can’t help it if you don’t like them.

          • Sermon 7.62

            You said “well documented instances”. So far, there is just a number of articles in the press, in all of which the same statements are made and no sources are referenced.

            Sometimes the same one article tells two stories that contradict each other at the same time:

            “Like us, the Soviets pushed modern ideas: they abolished sharia, unveiled women, introduced co-ed classrooms, redistributed land, built schools and medical clinics, and expanded roads and infrastructure.”

            “Ten years of Soviet attacks had smashed roads, schools and houses, and poisoned wells, irrigation systems and farmland.”

            Afghanistan: The End Is Near, and We’ve Been There Before (HuffPost)

            You are talking about war crimes here, man, and if that indeed happened, there must be something like UN reports, documentaries, etc.

          • valorius

            I’m sure the Russians did plenty of both in Afghanistan when they were there.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Most people smoked hash. Nice black hashish laced with opium. Almost impossible to get it in Russia.

          • Brett baker

            Actually, we get ours from the
            Australians.

          • iksnilol

            Uhm, that comic isn’t from no Russian commies. That’s Terminal Lance, a comic by a military guy that pokes fun at a lot of military stuff (think of it like Calvin and Hobbes for jarheads).

          • Uniform223

            I know of terminal lance. They have some good satire. The comic strip in question takes what we find offensive nowadays but puts spins it in a different way that isn’t offensive. Yes the US Military has had some rather disgraceful scandals (Though I wouldn’t piss on the corpes of a Daesh fighter, I wont stop someone from doing it or film it).
            From my understanding the USMC Scout Sniper has two lightning bolts in their logo

            http://battlerattle.marinecorpstimes.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2012/03/scout-snipers-logo-pitch1.jpg

            https://scoutsniper.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/USMC-Scout-Sniper-Association.png

            When you take those lightning bolts place them vertically they look like SS standing for Scout Sniper but it can also be misconstrued as the Nazi SS symbol in which it is eerily very very very close to. This case was dismissed and no charges were brought upon the Snipers in that photo.

          • iksnilol

            How I see from those pictures you posted, the Scout Sniper Logo ain’t two parallell Nazi bolts.

            So I’d say it’s shameful of that squad to use a Nazi flag.

          • valorius

            I would piss on them. Then douse them in molten bacon grease and set them on fire. But i’m petty.

          • El Duderino

            TL never disappoints!

          • KestrelBike

            Hah calling BS on the “oops we had no idea the Nazi-SS used this exact same flag that we bought on adolfssturmsurplus.com”

          • iksnilol

            “coincidence”

          • n0truscotsman

            yeah I agree. the SS were some horrible human beings.

        • Corey Sledd

          What are these guys running?

          • Sermon 7.62

            USMC Scout Snipers

      • ARCNA442

        You realize that the Sturmtruppen were used in WWI, not WWII?

        • n0truscotsman

          …And the swastika used to be an ancient religious symbol in India….

          Whatever less than nefarious reputation sturmtruppen had in WW1, it was completely overshadowed in the second war.

          • todda

            There were no “sturmtruppen” in WWII… You had the Sturmabteilung (“SA”) before the war and Schutzstaffeln (“SS”) during the war. Sturmtruppen is just a word for assault troops used during WWI, there is absolutely no connection to nazi germany.

      • Secundius

        Nobody was Taking Prisoners on Either Side in the Ardennes in 1944/45. Where were German Prisoners to be Shipped, IF your Surrounded…

    • The “speechless squad”, what?

      • Just Say’n

        LoL! Juggernaut not only forgot to roll his “r”, he forgot it all together.

      • Juggernaut

        That, too

  • Bierstadt54

    I like this – other than the M27’s.

  • Joshua

    Man Wade has a hard-on for the M27.

    It’ll be amazing to see all those guns tagged after a deployment suppressed firing M855A1.

    • ARCNA442

      There was an excellent thread on AR15 . com where he shared some of his thoughts. Based on it, I think he’s just using the M27 as a stand in to prove the concept of a full auto carbine with free float barrel since it is already in the inventory.

  • Raginzerker

    They should equip power armor too, it’ll help with these 15 pound rifles

  • B-Sabre

    He also plans to fit the section of company-level M240 medium machine guns supporting the squad with suppressors, using equipment borrowed from SOCOM to suppress both barrels of the guns.
    …what the what?

    • Paul Epstein

      The barrel installed on the gun, and the spare barrel. You wouldn’t actually want to keep the same suppressor if you have to swap out barrels, and you wouldn’t want to have the spare barrel un-suppressed.

      • B-Sabre

        Aha. That makes sense. I was wondering if the Marines had adopted the Nordenfeldt variant of the M240….

      • noob

        Can suppressor QD attachments let go if you grab them with an asbestos glove when they’re hot?

        OTOH I hope they flute the barrels to offset the weight of the suppressors.

        • Paul Epstein

          By the time the barrel needs to be changed, I imagine the suppressor is damn close to it’s absolute limit. If you get droop or warping with the suppressor that’s almost guaranteed baffle strikes.

    • valorius

      Nothing says fun like humping a 5 foot long machine gun, right?

    • neckbone

      Might mean the m240 and m249 also. Both calibers need silencers. It’s badly written either way though.

  • NewMan

    As I said in the other article. This is a very minor issue that H&K is already working to resolve. H&K gave the Marines the rifle that they asked for and the M27 meet and exceed all of the requirements. It isn’t their fault that the Army is shoving the extreme overpressure M855A1 down everyone throats.

    Regardless, the latest variant of the M27 will be based on the 416A5 (which already proved to be extremely reliable with the M855A1).

    U need to chill with your anti-HK and anti-piston agenda, bro.

    • CommonSense23

      I would love to hear what your firearms credentials are?

    • I hope H&K does improve the weapon to work with M855A1. I am all for a competitive environment, and I am all for the HK416/M27 becoming the best weapon it can be. However, that will not happen if everyone stops thinking and just decides it’s already good enough so why not?

    • Joshua

      Uhh what?

      The M27 will never become the 416A5. Once a gun us adopted changing the TDP requires a substantial effort.

      The Marine Corps cannot just go buy 416A5s. It’s why the 416 CAG and NSWDG use are still largely just 416Ds with a few minor changes from HK and multiple CRANE modifications. Yes you read that right, CRANE modifications to make the guns run well suppressed and a few other changes I can’t get into.

      That said M855A1 is better than the Marines SOST, and SOCOM is loving the round just fyi.

      • Joshua

        To add to my above post, the 416A5 is largely the same internally.

        The only upgrade the 416A5 has seen is the AGB. However to think no one has tested the 416A5 in the military is foolish.

        It’s been tested with 855A1 and still retains all issues the M27 is seeing.

        It still breaks bolts at an alarming rate, it’s still overgassed even on the suppressed setting, it’s still oversprung to compensate for the overgassed nature, it still tears up receivers and buffer tubes in a fraction of the time the M4 does, and it is still way less reliable with 855A1.

        Only thing the A5 offers is complete ambi controls and an AGB to make it less overgassed suppressed.

      • Mac0321/0317

        Joshua,

        Having used both M855A1 and SOST in combat, I can personally guarantee you that your statement regarding M855A1 over SOST is brutally incorrect.

        • Joshua

          In what ways? Give me some examples.

          M855A1 is a far better general purpose round than SOST.

          • Mac0321/0317

            IRT when you wrote, “That said M855A1 is better than the Marines SOST,” I’m not sure what your criteria is, I’m sure it’s extensice. My argument to that line was seeing guys drop from single hits from SOST and finding gigantic exit wounds on them, while our guys adjacent using M855A1 were saying that it isn’t terminally effective.

            I’m sorry. I don’t have any data other than anecdotal evidence. One round crushed bodies, the other didn’t.

          • Joshua

            The ones saying 855A1 is terminally innefective are missing. Simple as that, or they are confusing it with the older green tip 855.

            My guess is, the ones using A1 didn’t realize the BDC on the ACOG doesn’t match due to 855A1 having a flatter trajectory.

            I personally have seen the aftermath of COM hits with A1, even made a quite few myself.

            It was very effective.

            Guys in my old unit are stacking bodies like corkwood with 855A1.

          • Mac0321/0317

            No, I’m not referring to external ballistics. I’m well aware of the terrific performance of the M855A1 in that regard. I’m referring to terminal. It’s not very ineffective when compared with SOST. The exit wounds form AB49 were ghastly.

          • Joshua

            All the guys I checked who were killed with A1 certainly didn’t look like they were having a good day.

            Who knows, maybe they were just playing dead the whole time till we left.

            Or maybe your fellow Marines were just missing their targets.

            I find it interesting how it always seems like the Marine Corps experiences run counter to that of the rest of the US Military. Just something I find interesting.

            I believe you are the first person I’ve ever had tell me 855A1 doesn’t kill people. Which of course goes against everything I saw in my old unit and what those still deployed are seeing today.

          • iksnilol

            External ballistics can affect terminal ballistics. Like for instance you and your buddies missing because you were used to 855 trajectory and had ACOGs calibrated for that trajcectory.

          • Uniform223

            “Guys in my old unit are stacking bodies like corkwood”

            > just now I thought of that wonderful quote from Gran Torino…
            https://beaufortcountynow.com/uploads/film_images/movie_stills/gran_torino_10_440_pxlw.jpg

            +We used to stack like you 5ft high in Korea, used you for sandbags+

        • Uniform223

          “Having used both M855A1 and SOST in combat”

          >whenever someone on the interwebs says they have been in combat… is it a move of me to think they actually mean this?

          http://blog.airsoft-squared.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/airsoft-helmets.jpg

          http://cdn.images.dailystar.co.uk/dynamic/184/photos/366000/620x/Call-of-Duty-Modern-Warfare-trilogy-Amazon-Listing-511358.jpg

      • NewMan

        LOL! HK can easily improved it if the Marine requested it. It’s in their contract. Just wait and see.

        BTW, the recent testing proved that the 416A5 is extremely reliable with the M855A1. So you’re absolutely wrong about the 416A5 having issue with M855A1

        HK knows what they’re doing.

        • Joshua

          And what testing would that be NewMan?

          • No one

            You really expect sh ill master 3000 to have an answer to that question?

          • Joshua

            If he told me who did the testing and when it happened I could actually go and pull it and confirm/deny his story.

            But you are right, he won’t answer that.

    • Mac0321/0317

      Yup. It’s quite simple: *The M27 is the best rifle we’ve ever had, we should give it to everybody*

      The M27 is the finest rifle I’ve ever been issued by at least a factor of ten. I’m not an HK fanboy, I just like having a good survival rate.

      • Joshua

        Your also apparently a Marine, the Marine Corp decision makers also felt the M4 was better than the M4A1.

        • Mac0321/0317

          Yeah. Well I must say to be fair, the M4 used to give me less problems than the M4A1, but that may have been because the M4 Carbines belonged to line and support units that (let’s face it) don’t shoot very often, while the M4A1s I used were all at the Recon Battalions that shot quite a bit (and Sniper Platoons have all M4A1s now too, I think, but they don’t get to shoot them very often).

    • No one

      Ah yes, because this thread just wouldn’t be complete without this blogs biggest H&K shameless sh ill and apologist here yet again to defend his precious superior teutonic engineering against all sleights!

    • Kivaari

      Isn’t that the root of the problem? The Marines wanted a piston driven rifle to replace a belt fed machine gun. They ended up with a poorer carbine than if they had adopted the M4. They didn’t get a replacement for the M249 they simply got an expensive carbine that wears out faster than the M4.

    • Kinetics

      The M27 has issues that are in no way minor.

      It is unnecassarily heavy for a standard issue carbine/rifle and much of that is dure to its rail design that is over a decade old.

      It is extremely expensive and to date, costs around 3K a piece. Given the size of the USMC, the group of marines that would be using it, and the fact that H&K are a greedy company, I doubt they would get any price break, and surely not economies of scale.

      But that’s all moot, because H&K barely finished the first M27 contract quantity and couldn’t make them fast enough to pure-fleet the USMC if their life depended on it. Which means that to get more M27’s, the USMC has to open a contract/competition – they cannot sole source from H&K. The USMC knows this which is why they dropped an RFI to industry seeking info of procuring more M27’s or similar rifles, and didn’t simply sole source it. That means that the M27 from H&K would be competing against vastly superior, newer designed guns from other manufacturers and would be at a massive disadvantage.

      The M27 isn’t the solution and never will be.

  • B-Sabre

    You know…I keep looking for them on the app….and I can’t find them….

  • Lee Attiny

    The Uber squad? Sounds like something you’d get sent to if you got a DUI.

    • Major Tom

      Or who you call in for rides home after one too many drinks.

  • Mac0321/0317

    ‘Nathaniel F’,

    Your frequent propaganda articles are becoming tiresome.

    From here on out, you can simply state,

    “I represent several companies and an antiquated procurement establishment that stands to personally profit from the creation of a Frankenstein-Carbine consisting of an amalgamation of expensive components built by different manufacturers and slapped together onto a proven-lousy Colt M4.”

    Save yourself some time every week.
    /Mac

    • Eric H

      What are you talking about? You’re seeing conspiracies or back-door deals when there are none. Nathaniel is just stating his opinions, not advocating for particular companies. Also, the components he’s advocating for are not all that expensive and are actually cheaper to incorporate on current M4s than buying all new rifles with the same components/features.

      • Mac0321/0317

        It’s that kind of attitude and subversion that turned my M40A3 into a less-effective -A5, then into a full-blown-defective -A6 while we were screaming for more range and a heavier round over 12 years of war. That kind of attittude is why we’ve been inexplicably stuck with the god-awful SMAW for decades and saw so much flak when they proposed the CarlG MAAWS. That kind of attitude is why I was issued an expensive, unreliable, breakable, internally-cerakoted Colt M45 that sucks when everybody else got a G19. It’s why Recon guys are still for the most part trying to to top-down night VBSS with PVS-14s and EoTechs from 2007 that don’t even work. It’s why I’ve had to use LC AA11 instead of switching over to AB39 when the quality of AA11 was deemed defective and we couldn’t keep a zero when the temerature outside increased 5 degrees. It’s why we were given plastic ruck frames and hemlet chin straps that break. It’s why they gave us gigantic MTV vests to wear in 130 degree heat when we invaded Garmsir in 2008. It’s why our standard boot was a heavy, monstrous Danner while the not-yet-amputees were trying to step lightly through IED belts. With a few exceptions such as the MDO, IAR, and PVS-24s, All I ever saw from SYSCOM was a parade of shit, and all I’ve ever been is let down. We got some gunners out there right now trying to get the best gear to our guys, and the old dinosaurs are still throwing up their well-rehearsed obfuscations.

        • crackedlenses

          But the M27 is not “the best gear”. It wasn’t the best option for an IAR and it isn’t magically going to become the best option for a new infantry rifle.

        • Trey Heldmann

          While I appreciate your service to our country, I think you may be giving Nathaniel F. too much credit…

          • I was assured in another comments section that I was responsible for every small arms procurement disaster since the Civil War.

            The power better not go to my head.

          • crackedlenses

            All hail Nathaniel F., destroyer of US arms procurement programs.

          • Brett baker

            “This is H&K customer relations calling. We would like to remind you, that like the liars that say they need repair parts, because nothing ever goes wrong with H&K products, that you suck and we hate you.”

      • forrest1985

        “Lousy M4″ lol whats next ” they must be adopting full scale HK as the squad is called Uber and thats german!” Conspiracy…not. Firearms interest aside surely the system proposed by Nathaniel is the best for the Marines and tax payer alike?

        • Joshua

          He went there down below.

      • I will say I do have one agenda that runs contra to H&K’s aims: I don’t think sole-source contracts are a good idea.

        • Mack

          especially in a day and age when everything is already sourced or sub contracted already. might as well get the best bang for your buck for all parts and optics.

    • Vitsaus

      Don’t call the M4 “lousy” or he’ll quote you a bunch of DoD reports that show its perfect, and then remind you that grunts have terrible memory and don’t know their weapons as well as the chair warmers in the air conditioned offices know them.

      • Joshua

        It’s not perfect, it really needs a new barrel.

        It’s still better than the M27 though. Especially with 855A1.

        • Mac0321/0317

          I’m willing to bet at this point that you have never used the M27 in a prolonged live-fire training event or in a combat environment.

          Nobody that has would have said what you just said.

          • Desert

            Some people base things on facts, not stomachepedia. Hes one of them.

          • Mac0321/0317

            It’s like, there are a lot of gun industry enthusiats here, I get it, I respect that, but there’s just too much opinion that doens’t line up with the reality on the ground. Everybody seems to be in business for themselves, leaving the shooters twisting in the wind.

            What I’m hearing in all this is basically sort of like another M40. We keep slapping more components on over and over and the gun gets consistently worse over time. For example, I’ve even had non-snipers who never have been issued an M40A6 in their life tell me how good it is and that I, as a career Sniper and former insturctor, didn’t know what I was talking about. I’m seeing that here, with all this “M855A1 is the best, the M4 is awesome, the M27 sucks, etc” from guys with practically zero hands-on experience.

            It gets to be a little much. Sometimes you gotta call the guys behind their keyboards on their bullsh*t.

          • Desert

            Mk318 has hilarious penetration compared to M855A1 and a slightly worse bc.
            The M27 performs bad with M855A1, sure it could be worked on to fix that. Its just that…. an extremly updated and upgraded M4 has higher performance for half the price…

          • Joshua

            Shhh he doesn’t like the truth.

            Let’s also not mention the fact that 855A1 is only a few cents more per round that 855, which makes it exponentially cheaper than SOST.

            So a cheaper round that works better, just not in the M27….sucks to be the Marine Corps.

          • Mac0321/0317

            Yeah, it sucks to be the Marine Corps regarding weapons. That’s my whole point. We got guys trying to stick us with M4s for the next 20 years.

          • Joshua

            Your leadership had the option of procuring new M4A1’s under the Armys recent contract.

            That includes better barrels, trigger, and heavier springs/buffers.

            They chose not to.

          • Sermon 7.62

            For the next 40. And in the meantime, some are making balanced recoil rifles

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/2b130426b5c8a102191355f24ccef5463f9717406fff23eff2625d8927c2087d.jpg

          • FF

            CT will come in way under 40 and 20 years anyways. Already less recoil weight.

          • FF

            *recoil and weight

          • roguetechie

            And is lead free, which is a nice bonus environmentally and all but Also absolutely essential for our ability to actually sustain a force in active combat!

            The 318 could blow people up like grenades from a near miss and I still wouldn’t support it as a standard issue round because we physically have no way to supply enough lead to sustain major combat operations!

            Wish in one hand, in the other, see what fills up first!

            This also completely ignores the complete and TOTAL effectiveness cliff 318 drives off the second people armor up with cheap Chinese body armor!

          • Mac0321/0317

            Yes. I am aware that M855A1 has a better trajectory and penetration of armor/mediums than AB49. AGAIN, I’m referring to the terminal ballistic effects against a human body.

          • Joshua

            As am I. 855A1 violently fragments in soft tissue, while also creating dual wound channels since the arrow head and copper core take different paths through the body.

            Again your people were missing.

          • Mac0321/0317

            Ah, got it. Scout/Snipers and Recon Marines were missing. Just curious, who were you with again?

          • Joshua

            Are you saying recon Marines and scout snipers never miss?

            Someone’s a bit full of themselves to think such things.

          • Mac0321/0317

            Yeah, we miss sometimes. Like with our garbage M40A6s and LC AA11 that guys like these push on us against our wishes and recommendations.

            You didn’t answer my question.

          • Don Ward

            Given the recent news involving nude photos being passed around the Marine Corp, maybe the Devil Dogs are losing their eyesight due to another activity?

            I kid, Marines, I kid!

          • Joshua

            You know I was discussing this with someone else the other day.

            The more special someone in the military is the more perfect they are.

            I think most would be shocked how bad Marines are at shooting, but you can’t ever tell them they suck at shooting.

          • CommonSense23

            Most people would be shocked to hear the max distance a JSOC sniper can gurantee a shot.

          • Sermon 7.62

            You don’t have the clearance to know about it.

          • Kivaari

            Then you should see the quick and simple gel block tests shown on the wound channel. It replicates what the military has found out, it really expands in tissue AND it goes through armor better. What about those facts wont you accept?

          • Mac0321/0317

            Oh gotcha, don’t get me wrong, I would accept M855A1 no problem. I have zero beef with it (I just loved that SOST exit wound). As a matter of fact, screw it, let’s assume M855A1 is the best round ever!

            My argument is with those obstructing the acquisition of quality, proven rifles to the guys who need them for the sake of prolonging costly testing/procurement processes and/or getting money & contracts to other gun parts manufacturers.

            I’ve noticed as of late that there are some bugs mentioned with M855A1 in M27s and the anti-HK/pro-M4-upgrade guys are using that as their final protective fires to deny the M27.

            I have to repeat myself to them: THE M27 AS IS WILL NOT BE THE SERVICE RIFLE. THERE WILL BE SOME MODIFICATIONS.

          • mosinman

            i think the question is why is it needed in the first place if you could get the M4 to replicate it’s performance for cheaper?

          • James Kachman

            “THE M27 AS IS WILL NOT BE THE SERVICE RIFLE. THERE WILL BE SOME MODIFICATIONS.”

            The modifications necessary to make the M27 work with M855A1 are *not* minor, and would involve basically redesigning the weapon. The modifications would end up essentially returning you to a heavily upgraded M4 type weapon anyway, as the piston is what’s causing the issue.

            Our argument then becomes that it is cheaper and easier to use those same valuable features of the M27, ie, its trigger, barrel, and free-float nature, and apply them to the M4. This upgraded M4 would also be lighter.

          • Question, why is it important to you to give HK a sole-source contract, when an open-source contract for modifications to the M4 could accomplish the same thing with less cost, weight, and procurement hassle?

          • Joshua

            That would require a new contract vehicle, a fair and open competition of rifles.

            HK would have to re-compete and win a second time.

            The Marine Corps cannot just go out and buy the HK416A5 or A7 or A9 without a new competition. There are laws that exist for this very reason, so a random general doesn’t get on HK’s payroll and just go out and cram through a bunch of HK products.

            There is no legal course for the Marines to buy new, upgrades HK rifles without a contract, and a contract requires a new RFP.

          • Brett baker

            Maybe we should make Green Hell happy and buy the land squids AK’s and RPK’s. Maybe they’ll be accurate and reliable enough. If it works for the Russians, they should be Marine-proof. Probably not.

          • Kivaari

            If they take the piston out of the M27 and put in a gas tube, I’d like it better.

          • Kivaari

            Look up the Mk 318 Mod 0 on the Wound Channel. It really penetrates deep before doing much damage. That is why it is not the best. Certainly there are times that it will make a nasty exit wound, usually after hitting bone. It does fly a long distance.

          • valorius

            The M4A1 is a quality proven rifle.

          • Uniform223

            But the M27 is better. Don’t expect him to give a reason why… you’ll just have to take his word for it that the M27 is the superior rifle/carbine (not so much because it has a slightly longer barrel than the M4A1 hahaha)

          • Sermon 7.62

            Because it’s a piston rifle. More reliable

          • Uniform223

          • Sermon 7.62

            Right.

            M4 is the least reliable standard-issue carbine. You take it out of its comfort zone and it’s in trouble. Because of that, all European countries use piston guns.

          • Brett baker

            That’s because M4’s get used, unlike most of the Euroguns. Guns with a lot of parts wear are less reliable. Then again, with a little maintenance, they’re just as reliable, and lighter.

          • Uniform223

            “M4 is the least reliable standard-issue carbine”

            “You take it out of its comfort zone and it’s in trouble”

            You take ANY FIREARM out of its “comfort zone” and bad things will happen.

            “M4 is the least reliable standard-issue carbine. You take it out of its comfort zone and it’s in trouble. Because of that, all European countries use piston guns.”

            A quick wikipedia search will call male bovine excrement on you… also I showed pictures of British units using weapons that aren’t gas piston operated…

          • Sermon 7.62

            Britain isn’t Europe, and M4 is the least reliable rifle.

            AK, HK, SG, FN, and a number of other rifles are more reliable than M4

          • Uniform223

            “Britain isn’t Europe”

            http://australianoceanicvirtualairlines.weebly.com/uploads/1/4/8/5/14855642/map_of_europe.jpg

            and I thought I was bad with geography…

          • Sermon 7.62

            You are showing the map in order to prove that Britain is in Europe 🙂
            This is cute

          • Uniform223

            So England/Great Britain/UK isn’t part of Europe? Okay then, show us a map that doesn’t identify England/Great Britain/UK not being part of Europe.

            http://www.conceptdraw.com/How-To-Guide/picture/geo-map-europe-germany/Map-of-Europe-with-Cities.png

            or maybe I’m (and a few others) are revealing that many here already know; you are full of…

            http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0x77DFWDW30/T-C211fOrNI/AAAAAAAAGoc/Ql0mK8G-r8Y/s1600/bullshit.jpg

          • Sermon 7.62

            Make an effort to comprehend (though it must be hard for an idiot):

            Britain is, in political and historical sense, not a part of Europe because Britain, such as the US and Australia, and New Zealand is a part of a different commonwealth, culture that is separate from the other European countries, and the decisions made in Britain regarding politics, economics and making alliances are based on their ties with the US and the rest of the aforementioned countries much more than their ties with Europe.

          • Secundius

            Technically England IS part of Europe because it sit’s on the Same Continental Shelf as Europe. Deepest part of the English Channel is only 95-meters deep. But then again, the English People can see themselves as being “Other Than”. As in your comment where:

            “Sometimes the same article tells two stories that contradict each other at the same time.”

            The SAME applies here…

          • Sermon 7.62

            What applies here is that I said “European countries don’t use DI guns” and someone said “Look, UK uses DI” and to that I replied “UK is not Europe”, pointing out at the fact that UK has been a separate political subject, not a member of the Eurozone, going out of the EU now, and in the political sense, not a part of Europe but rather a part of UK-US plus its former colonies commonwealth.

            I mean it is a known fact that choices are made based on the common interest. And UK in that sense has much more in common with the US than the rest of Europe.

          • Secundius

            Really?/! And French made MAS-40, 44, 49 and 49/56 DON’T Apply!/?

          • Sermon 7.62

            Some European countries used to use DI guns in the past but later trashed all of them

          • Secundius

            There’s also the Croatian HS Produkt VHS Bullpup, the German HK G36, the French FAMAS Commando, FAMAS F1 Felin, FAMAS G2 and the FAMAS Type 62…

          • Sermon 7.62

            FAMAS is not DI and G36 uses a short-stroke piston.

          • Secundius

            Still leaves the Croatian HS Produkt VHS Bullpup?/! Or are you going to Change the Parameters of the Discussion Again. To those Countries where the Primary Language is ENGLISH!/? Keeping in Mind that the English Language is “Germanic” in Origin…

          • Sermon 7.62

            “In 2004, the final and current operating system of the VHS was changed to a gas-operated, short-stroke piston system.”

          • Secundius

            I believe it was December 2008, not 2004. Check with the Achieves Section of “TFB” for Verification. They Posted an Article in 16 December 2008…

          • Sermon 7.62

            Croatian VHS – Small Arms Defense Journal

            “Final form of the VHS was taking shape as of 2004. This time it was a short-stroke piston weapon with all the frills of the prototypes gone.”

          • Secundius

            Gas Operated Rotating Bolt!/? Design of HS Produky VHS was Heavily Influenced by French FAMAS. But that’s where the Similarities End, Internal Layout Radically different from that of FAMAS. (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/2008/12/16/new-croatian-vhs-assault-rifle/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=SumoMe&utm_campaign=sumome_share) …

          • Uniform223

            “Make an effort to comprehend (though it must be hard for an idiot):”

            > oh okay… so speaking for yourself then?

            “Britain is, in political and historical sense, not a part of Europe because Britain, such as the US and Australia, and New Zealand is a part of a different commonwealth”

            > so now you want to argue semantics of politics and culture?

            “culture that is separate from the other European countries”

            > France, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Germany, Greece, Czech Republic, Norway, Denmark… ect. All these countries are part of mainland Europe but are all politically, historically, and culturally different from one another. So by your logic none of those countries are considered European? How can you define what is truly culturally “European” if all those countries and the people living in them are culturally distinct from each other?

            “and the decisions made in Britain regarding politics, economics and making alliances are based on their ties with the US”

            > so what about all the other nations within NATO? Don’t their political and military decision making are in someway shape/form based on their ties with the US?

            your “argument” is as successful as a lead brick trying to float in water.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Like I said that was something hard to comprehend for an idiot, but thanks for making an effort 🙂

          • Uniform223

            I Just dismantled your BS and you’re still grinning like an idiot…

            http://memecreator.org/static/images/memes/3621111.jpg

          • Sermon 7.62

            Your photo?

            Damn! You look good

          • valorius

            To some, $ equates quality. Why get a $12 haircut when you can get the same thing in Manhattan for $120.

          • Uniform223

            True, sometimes you do get what you pay for.
            You can buy a Dodge Charger but if you’re willing to cough up a little more you can get the Hellcat.

          • valorius

            You can get a real nice leather purse at the leather outlet, or get one that says coach but is exactly the same otherwise and pay 4x as much.

          • Uniform223

            I wouldn’t know anything about purses so I’ll stay out of that lane, my lady is the SME on that so I wont say anything about it. However there are some things that you pay a little more for and you do get either more features or better quality. Hence the car analogy.

          • valorius

            My fiancee is stricken by the name brand bugaboo. I agree that cars, or guns, you often get what you pay for- but when it comes to high fashion, and things like ‘exclusivity’, you really just get ripped off.

          • Uniform223

            Good point on exclusivity.

            One AR I’ve been somewhat drooling over and wanting to get is the SR-15 of KAC. My only real problem is that it is damn expensive (slightly cheaper than an MR556 but still out of my price range) and that they use a lot of proprietary parts (hence the exclusivity) on their rifles. Their proprietary parts to me is what really drives up their price. I can fix up my new Saint (which I am in the process of doing… getting rid of those damn handguards) for a lot less.

          • Uniform223

            “My argument is with those obstructing the acquisition of quality, ”

            > good… then stop commenting.

          • valorius

            M855A1 performs extremely well in every gel test i’ve seen online.

          • Uniform223

            Your mental capabilities is baffling. How do you wake up in the morning and not hurt yourself?

          • Uniform223

            “as a career Sniper and former insturctor,”
            *skip a few lines of stupid*
            “Sometimes you gotta call the guys behind their keyboards on their bullsh*t”

            > Okay than… I call male bovine excrement on you.

          • Joshua

            Plenty of people agree with my assessment on the M27, then again my assessment comes from testing done by USASOC and SoF testing.

            Besides the M27 wasn’t even the best rifle in the IAR trials.

            It was the 3rd in Type III Stoppages.

          • Kivaari

            What ammo was in use when you saw all this? M855? If so, there’s the issue.

          • Kivaari

            Have you gone to the Wound Channels you tube videos yet? There are a whole series of them testing the M855A1. Also you can put in the US Army tests on the M855A1 and it shows how well it performs on armor and tissue.

          • Uniform223

            “I’m willing to bet at this point that you have never used the M27 in a prolonged live-fire training event or in a combat environment”

            > Playing CoD doesn’t count.

            If I were in a prolonged SHTF TIC situation I’ll stick with my belt fed SAW or if given the choice would like to run the new KAC LMG.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Joshua has been assigned to this blog for some time. His legend is, like, he is an ex-commando, he has lots of experience, he is retired and is kind of chilling here teaching the kids and fudds all about guns.

          • crackedlenses

            I’ve been reading Joshua long before I came to this site.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Does he have a book, like memoirs or something

          • crackedlenses

            No, he comments on more military-oriented sites, usually on the same topics.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Like I said, he is a pro.
            Operation Earnest Voice

          • Brett baker

            At least he’s a pro for Americans, not Kalashnikov Concern. Seriously, dude, AK-74’s. We’re not talking about replacing M1 Garlands here.

          • Sermon 7.62

            AK-74 is outdated compared to M4 because it doesn’t have a flat-top receiver, I know. And the fire selector is not ambidextrous 🙂

          • crackedlenses

            Uuuugh. I guess only the internet posters you disagree with are the “pros”. Ones you do agree with are totally legit.

          • Sermon 7.62

            No
            Joshua is a pro and the rest are a bunch of amateurs

        • valorius

          Like an 18″ midlength 1:8 pencil barrel perhaps?

        • Uniform223

          Keep the heavy profile but ditch that M203 cut… there are better ways to mount a 40mm nowadays.

          • James Kachman

            Please keep the M203 cut, it’s a great way to show who on the civilian market knows how to make an AR-15, and who is just badly copying the .mil!

          • Uniform223

            I’m only referring to barrels for M4A1s in the military. I can careless for a 203 cut on civi AR-15s.

          • Eric H

            Slightly OT: How does the mounting of the M320 compare to the M203? Also, how do soldiers like it now that it’s been in use for a few years?

          • Uniform223
          • FryGuy25

            It does not mount to the rails. You have to remove the lower rail, remove the stock from the 320, and then add a rear and front mount to the top of the launcher. The rear mount hooks into the handguard mount, and the front locks onto the bayonet lug.

            And for what it’s worth, myself and many of my Soldiers hate mounting it to our weapons because it is awkward and cumbersome. We typically try to run them in standalone configuration, but we have to finagle our own ways of carrying them because the holsters generally suck. The one thing I like about it over the 203 is that misfire procedures are way easier thanks to the double action trigger… But if I had a choice, I’d sling a 203 under the rifle.

          • CommonSense23

            M79 for life.

          • Uniform223

            I stand corrected. I am more familiar with the M203 than the M320 (got out before it came in). From all the articles I read the M320 could be used as a stand alone platform or be mounted to the M4/M16 at the user level without the need of an armorer.

          • FryGuy25

            No need for an armorer, that much is correct. Every screw on it is the same size Allen head. There’s an Allen key that stashes inside the launcher just above the rear grip. It’s a well thought out weapon system in a vacuum, but when you start placing it into a doctrinal role, it gets dragged down a little.

      • Don Ward

        “Don’t call the M1 Carbine/.30 Carbine “lousy” or he’ll quote you a bunch of DoD reports that show its perfect, and then remind you that grunts have terrible memory and don’t know their weapons as well as the chair warmers in the air conditioned offices know them.”

        Because I can interchange any number of weapons just like that.

        Except, oops, a lot of grunts do have terrible memory or believe things that aren’t true because grunts are human beings afterall and have their own prejudices and gaps of knowledge and are just as susceptible as any other person at falling for rumors and innuendo. Grunts aren’t infallible. Which explains the preponderance of strip clubs, used car lots and pawn shops around military bases.

        • Mac0321/0317

          Haha did you just admit to being a chair warmer and never a grunt?

          • Don Ward

            Get a load of this guy.

            Sorry studly. Some of us chose other careers that didn’t involve Uncle Sam paying an NCO to tell me how to dress and when to eat. Instead I’ve worked at some of the most dangerous career occupations in America including that of a commercial fisherman. I’ve also been a newspaper reporter. As such, I have little tolerance for BS being passed for knowledge in the written form.

            But congrats. You’ve done a job that millions of other men and women have done.

            *Slow clap*

          • Mac0321/0317

            I think you should go back to comerical fishing and stop mesing around with the survival rate of the American serviceman.

            If the fish ever learn to shoot back I’ll be sure to try to negatively affect your ability to defend yourself against them.

            “I’ve worked at some of the most dangerous career occupations in America… I’ve also been a newspaper reoprter”
            *Slow clap, tear rolls down cheek.*

          • Joshua

            The survival rate of the American Serviceman is very high. In 15 years we’ve lost around 6,000 soldiers, 85% to IED, 10% to other explosives and just 5% to small arms.

          • Sermon 7.62

            That’s because herdsmen and peasants can’t fight back

          • Joshua

            Well that’s dumb. I would guestimate around 70% of the insurgents we face in Afghanistan are not actually from Afghanistan.

            They’re trained fighters who travel there to kill Americans.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Insurgents are not soldiers. Trained or not, these people have no means to resist.

          • The_Champ

            Funny thing to say about a group of people that have found the will to take on both world super powers in the last 50 years and still continue fighting. You might argue that the US lead coalition had it’s hand tied with ROE’s and a nation building agenda, but that could hardly be said of the Russian efforts.

            And for all of the blood and money spent by nations of the west, the ‘herdsmen and peasants’ continue to resist.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Afgans are good warriors but that is not the point

          • Kivaari

            They have killed quite a few of the NATO force and more ANA/P.

          • Sermon 7.62

            So?

          • Kivaari

            The point is it doesn’t take a professional to inflict casualties. Rank amateurs have been killing quite a few of the coalition side.

          • Kivaari

            I prefer the NATO forces. Those untrained Afghanis inflict a great deal of damage. I prefer they don’t do that. I don’t think there is one western life worth losing to the war in SW Asia.

          • Sermon 7.62
          • Kivaari

            I wonder what the contact range is in those 5% shootings. I suspect that 100m would be close to average. In Israel most of the long range desert combat was taking place at 25m.

          • Don Ward

            No. Do go on about what a rough-and-tough snake-eating, door-kicker you are. That is sure to impress folks here on the Internet.

            In the meanwhile, I work an occupation where I’ve seen US servicemen wash-out and go back home sobbing because they couldn’t face the mental and physical challenge of working in the commercial fishing industry. I’ll be leaving in a week for Bristol Bay. Heck, my profile picture here at Disqus is at the – now defunct – BumbleBee Cannery in Naknek. Come on up sometime. We’ll show you what it’s like to do some real work for a change.

          • roguetechie

            Yes because you guys are the only people who know anything about guns…

            Except as a group you’ve proven yourselves useless at actually knowing the most basic of right answers since forever.

          • Kivaari

            People that warm chairs can be experts in their field, be it small arms or civil war history. You don’t have to live it to know it. I was a chair warmer, but we need them as well.

      • Kivaari

        The report from the Center for Naval Analysis does report an 89% favorable rating from those 2600 soldiers that were interviewed after having used the M4 in combat. An 89% positive review is pretty good. Especially, knowing that 11% go into the survey convinced the 5.56mm is a poodle shooter round.

    • Don Ward
      • Joe

        The truth Don, the righteous truth. Well at least the part about MARSYSCOM letting Marines down.

    • Mac0321/0317

      The opinions of the guys who actually USE all this shit don’t seem to be warmly appreciated.

      All stories of M4 problems in combat aside, I invite M4 fans to request with range control to go witness some of the the 2-week marksmanship phase of the MEF/EOTG Close-Quarters Tactics Course. It’s like a Ludivico treatment. The sight of an M4 will make you physically sick after that. They oughta call it ‘USMC Stoppage Remediation Advanced Leader’s Course’

      After much M27 use, some (including myself) say, “This is the best rifle we ever had. We can improve it and get it to everybody” while others say, “hold on, there may be better guns or upgrades out there, let’s spend a few more years testing and wasting money.” And that’s the whole point, isn’t it? Testing and wasting money?

      • Kivaari

        The M4 is a great carbine. It is not as trouble prone as you seem to think and most users like the thing. It has nothing to do with taking a long time and wasting money, it is about finding the best value. The more reliable M4 with a few upgrades makes more sense.

        • valorius

          A modernized M16 makes more sense, but i guess no one thinks infantrymen should carry rifles anymore.

          • Kivaari

            I’d go with an M16A1 with M4 feed ramps.

          • valorius

            An M16A1 in 1:8 with carbon fiber handguards, key mod, and a collapseable stock would be an awesome service rifle.

          • DW

            That’s MK12 with slimmer barrel

          • valorius

            Hell of a weapon too, isn’t it?

          • Kivaari

            M-lok

          • valorius

            Shrug, wutevz.

        • Sermon 7.62

          It’s all about making it at home. Not bringing from Europe, because that’s a disgrace

      • Joshua

        I’ve used all the weapons we are discussing. You don’t seem to warm to my opinion.

        • Eric H

          Because it doesn’t fit into his own personal narrative/preferences. Seems we’ve been getting quite a few new posters like him.

      • valorius

        I used this crap and to me we should be using an M16A5.

        • James Kachman

          Rumor has it that every time you post, Eugene Stoner himself reaches down from heaven and bumps up our warfighter’s muzzle velocities by 10 FPS. 🙂

          • valorius

            😀

      • Uniform223

        I had an M16A2 and later an M4… never had those problems you claimed. Before I was out the door I was at Camp Pendelton doing a cross service FTX with Marines who got brand spanking new M27s. They liked it but they weren’t that impressed with it. One said that they employ it as just another M16 in their squad. Of course that is when they first got the damn things. Tactics and Techniques have no doubt been refined over time.

        I have a used Colt 6920 and I never had to do more than a immediate action when ever I had a “problem”. I just bought a Springfield Saint and have yet to put it through its paces but so far no problems either. Going to put better gas rings and extractor spring on my Saint.

    • Joshua

      You realize the “amalgamation” of random parts slapped onto the M4 would cast 1/3 what the M27 runs right?

      • Mac0321/0317

        No, it absolutely would not. I also believe the author of this article is well aware of that.

        • Joshua

          Yes, it would.

          The M27 runs just a hair under $3,000. The M4A1 runs $678 with a KAC RAS.

          To get a Geissele Rail, CH, and trigger would put the M4A1 between $1250 and $1500.

          So the M27 runs 2x-2.5x the cost of a M4A1(2).

          Now to get super fancy we could throw in a LMT E-BCG, CHF barrel and come out around $2000 for such a rifle, and we would then quadruple the bolt life of the M27 and equal the barrel life.

          While still being $1000 cheaper and also weighing 1.15lb less.

          • Mac0321/0317

            No, you’re wrong.

            The USMC will not be paying just under $3000 if they make it the service rifle. It’ll be roughly half that.

            And if you slap a Geisle rail, CH, trigger, E-BCG, and CFH bbl on an M4 you’re just putting lipstick on a pig.

            Your proposed M4 idea would be far more expensive, would push testing years to the right, and would eventually be a failure. This is a stupid idea and I hope it goes away soon.

          • Joshua

            No, a dumb idea is issuing the M27 to everyone when it doesn’t work with the Marine Corps new standard issue round, M855A1.

          • Mac0321/0317

            It won’t be an M27 rifle
            AS IS, it will be modified. What is so hard to understand about that?

          • Joshua

            That would require a new competition to acquire a new rifle.

          • Mac0321/0317

            Wrong. We own it already.

          • Joshua

            You clearly have no clue how procurement works.

            The contract vehicle of the M27 allowed for around 6500 M27(I’m guestimating here as it’s been a while since I’ve read the contract.)

            To get more would require a new contract vehicle, which requires a new competition.

          • Kinetics

            You do realize that the USMC let out an RFI a month ago for information from industry on procuring more M27’s, specifically because they would need other contract to get more right?

            And that contract would be open to other companies that aren’t H&K, right?

          • Uniform223

            “The USMC will not be paying just under $3000 if they make it the service rifle”

            https://kitup.military.com/2017/02/marines-iar-infantry-service-rifle.html

            http://www.businessinsider.com/m27-rifle-marine-corps-2017-4

            Mind you that the 3K price tag is for the rifle itself… this doesn’t include the price of the bipod and scope.

        • Uniform223

          You can buy an ADM Universal Improved Carbine (my next intended rifle purchase 🙂 )for cheaper than you could an M27.

          I can take my colt 6920 and install a free float handguard/rail along with a better barrel… cheaper than going out and purchasing an H&K MR556

    • Wait.

      I stand to personally profit from this!? Nobody told me!

      • ostiariusalpha

        🎉Congrats, Nathaniel!!🎉
        Don’t let all that kickback money go to your head.

      • Mac0321/0317

        Well, that’s fair. Let me put it to you another way:

        I believe that for reasons undetermined, you are actively trying to influence and obstruct the acquisition of a better rifle in order to further prolong an expensive and timely testing process, such as making extensive modifications to the M4 rather than slight modifications to an M27.

        I believe you are aware that a modified M27 would be a better rifle, but I do not believe you are working in the best interests of getting Marines a better rifle.

        • Joshua

          Except it wouldn’t. It would be a more expensive rifle, a heavier rifle, and not as good was what a modified M4A1 is capable of.

          The current M27 only has a leg up on the M4 in the barrel.

          Have you seen any of the extensive testing USASOC has done in regards to this?

          There’s a reason the Block III is remaining DI, and it’s not to maintain compatibility with gas tubes.

        • So you believe I have hidden motives but you have absolutely no proof? Nice.

          • Mac0321/0317

            Nope. No proof, just your long pattern of articles posted on this blog. I know what you’re up to, bud. As a matter of fact, I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that you’re a retired Lt. Col. or possibly an active-duty Warrant Officer.

            Maybe you are just another blogger, I really have no idea. Nevertheless, most of what you post is wrong. Either it’s on purpose (as I suspect) or you’re just consistently mistaken. In either case I don’t care, I just wanted to point out how dissapointing it is.

          • Don Ward

            Now we’re never going to hear the end of it from Nate lording it over us for being a Lt. Colonel.

          • Don Ward

            I’ve done some digging but it’s TRUE. Nate is a Lt. Colonel in the Army. Here is the photographic evidence! https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Custer_Lt-Col_George-A_1873.jpg

          • Mac0321/0317

            Makes sense to me. Custer was defeated because of his ludicrous, inadequate rifles.

          • Don Ward

            Hahahahahaha.

            HAHAHAHAHA!

            No.

            It is because he split his command into four different and isolated units, in the face of superior numbers, whereupon these separated detachments were defeated in detail by a massively superior force which had the benefit of being able to move these numbers along interior lines.

            Custer could have been armed with 1903 Springfields instead of the 1873 Trapdoor models and the day would have ended the same.

            I see you are as ignorant of basic US History as you are of military procurement.

          • Mac0321/0317

            oh, here we go.

            It was a joke, professor.
            Ease up on the wikipedia.

            Maybe I don’t know the procruement process that men like you perpetuate, but I have intimate knowledge of the awful garbage that men like you foist on men like me while we bleed and fight.

          • Don Ward

            Does it get lonely, standing up on your pedestal all day?

          • Mac0321/0317

            Who, me? I’m on a pedestal because corrupt old men around with our getting the best guns and gear?

            Whatever, dude.

          • CommonSense23

            Please explain how the M27 or the 416 is in anyway superior to the M4A1.

          • No one

            It has “H&K” stamped on the side of it, which instantly makes it bettererererer and more Germanererererer which = more bettererererer!

            (In before NewMan replies and unironically posts how this is true.)

          • Well it says “Hk” on the side for a start.

          • iksnilol

            Even you gotta admit that the pictograms and red HK logo is hella cooler than anything.

          • Joshua

            HK man! Hk!

          • James Kachman

            Overall, it’s inferior, but the M27 *does* have free float handguards, a good trigger, and excellent barrel steel. That’s not nothing… but not impossible to put on an M4A1+, or M4A2.

          • CommonSense23

            Of the 3 you mentioned. I spent the majority of my career with a DD rail on my rifle. A lot of the guys I worked with had Geiselle triggers in their guns. The better barrel is definitely true. But its not going to make a difference in terms of precision with the ammo we are issuing. If normal part replacement schedules are followed. Maybe the 80gr stuff it could make a difference. But nobody uses that. Not even taking into account the amount of shooter who could truly squeeze out the quarter to half moa improvement on a standard issue 5.56 rifle in a combat environment can fit in a large conference room.

          • iksnilol

            I think the point is that the barrel lasts hella longer.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Just like AKS-74, but a little less than. Plus, it’s more accurate, at least the M27

          • CommonSense23

            What are you talking about?

          • Sermon 7.62

            How the M27 or the 416 is superior to the M4A1

          • CommonSense23

            How does that make any sense to you. There is no caliber change. And the M27 and 416 perform worse.

          • Sermon 7.62

            You mean, to me there’s no difference, on the other side?

            I am on the neutral side here, and for me it doesn’t matter how it connects to politics etc.

          • Kivaari

            Getting rid of the M855 and using M855A1 will improve accuracy. M855 is just poor ammunition. Just today I had a customer with a Colt 6940 that was getting sub-MOA with Fiocchi 50 gr BT but could only get 4 MOA with “green tip” M855. It really is inferior to other choices. I use M193 and get MOA groups with the right brand and lot number.

          • Sermon 7.62

            And how about automatic fire? I think that ammo like M855A1 is not going to be better in this regard. Yet, M4 has no brake

          • Kivaari

            The M4 has a brake. It is simply the closed bottom of the flashider in use on all A2 and newer rifles, except those fitted for suppressors. A new flash hider/brake is an easy and inexpensive fix. The A2 unit is very effective at knocking down the flash. It doesn’t kick up dust like the A1 devices. I never found the recoil of the M16A1 to be all that bad if used like you should use it. Unlike the AKS74 there is little flash. The 74 brake is quite effective in reducing recoil. The AKM needed a better device, but they failed to go to low flash powder. Maybe the Russians have finally solved that issue.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Yep.

            There is a number of flash hiders and brakes, and some combine brake and flash hider.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/237092f3e302f705076cf75b96d11d6584ada25353120cb6a0f74bc1106664fb.jpg

          • valorius

            The ludicrous inadequate rifles had a lot to do with it- they were massively outgunned by indians with lever action rifles.

          • Kivaari

            Yep, the 3000 to 200 ratio of Indians to soldiers didn’t have anything to do with it. The rifles failed because of the copper folded head ammunition. Custer was an idiot.

          • Joshua

            Actually most of what he posts in regard to the M27 is correct.

            After his last post regarding a insider source who quoted durability of the M27 compared to the M4A1 I reached out to some people I know in a few areas and the data he posted was correct.

            People who I know first hand and what rank they hold in what branches and I guarantee they know far more about this stuff than you do.

          • Sermon 7.62

            I heard the French just have adopted HK, as the Norwegians before them. I heard that Germans are going to adopt it, too.

            You should explain to all these fools how much the M4 is a better option. The same rifle for cheaper price!

            But it’s a DI gun

          • Kinetics

            They are adopting the H&K 416 purely because it is the ONLY serviceable conventional pattern rifle available in Europe, by a European manufacturer. It’s purely a political decision because surely aren’t gonna go with a US made/designed rifle, or one from anywhere else I will add, even though it would be better.

            But H&K can’t produce weapons on a large scale, at least not 416 pattern weapons (I have no idea how long it took to field the G36). The French won’t have their full order anytime soon and the Germans will likely still be waiting on guns in 2040 if they order today.

          • Sermon 7.62

            You forget about FN, Sig Sauer and SG. Nice rifles, a European manufacturer.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/19f532df9094f61b2ecd4c8ea0b9c61179b760b3146c129d1fc23afdc26ad35e.jpg

          • Kinetics

            No, I didn’t. I said “serviceable”. FN Herstal only makes 2 rifles, one is the FN2000 which is bulpup and not applicable. The other, the FNC is a heavy rifle that is extremely dated and would need numerous updates, all proprietary, to be fielded today (I don’t even know if it’s still in production, likely not). Sig Sauer is an American company, the original European side, “SIG” was sold and renamed Swiss Arms – they make one rifle that is applicable here, the SG 550 series. The SG 550 is worse than the FNC, weighs more, and would need the same updates to be considered fro modern procurement.

            There is currently only one European Arms manufacturer that makes a remotely serviceable conventional pattern rifle, H&K with the H&K416. That’s why it is being adopted – there are quite literally no other options (if you don’t want to get it from the US or Colt Canada – which most European countries don’t). Nice try though.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Swiss Arms makes SG550, Sig Sauer GmbH makes SIG516 and 716, FN makes SCAR and FN2000 (some countries use them). Plus, there’s Beretta and Sako.

          • Kinetics

            1) Sig Sauer GmbH doesn’t exist.
            2) Even if Sig Sauer GmbH did exist, the Sig 516 and 716 are made by SIG Sauer THE ANERICAN COMPANY – they are American guns.
            3) The SCAR is another American gun made by FN USA.
            4) The F2000, as I previously mentioned, is a bulpup gun and therefore not applicable for procurement of conventional rifles.
            5) None of that changes the fact that only one European arms manufacturer makes a suitable conventional pattern rifle that is “available” today.

            The fact that European and American arms manufacturers may share the same name or lineage does not make them the same. And it surely does not magically make weapons, that are made by an American company, European because they have similar company names.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Perhaps, Sig Sauer has a branch in the US but it’s of European origin, and FN makes SCAR in Belgium, bullpup has been around since the 70’s so it’s conventional in that sence.

            Ford and VW make cars in Russia, but that doesn’t mean VW is a Russian car now, does it?

            And Swiss Arms has a full line of SG rifles, 7 models.

          • Kinetics

            No, Sig Sauer (American) and the former Sig Sauer GmbH (European) are entirely different companies.

            The FN SCAR is an American firearm built in South Carolina, the ones offered by FN Herstal and imported by FN USA are the 16s and 17s – semi-automatic civilian rifles, not the military versions.

            And the fact that bulpup rifles have been around since “the 70’s” (not actually true, bulpup firearms existed far before that) does not in any way make them conventional pattern rifles.

            Finally, the various models of SG rifles all have the same issue previously outlined, but, only the 5.56 SG 550 rifle-variant is applicable here to a discussion of rifles.

          • Sermon 7.62

            So there is at least the SG models line to compete with the HK.

            But also, FN America is the subsidiary of FN Herstal, so it doesn’t make SCAR American, and FN in Europe makes combat SCAR rifles, too.

          • iksnilol

            There’s two Sig Sauers, one in the US and one in Switzerland/Germany.

            You shoulda known that.

            And there’s Sig 516’s and 716s made in Germany.

          • Joshua

            Well France only allowed EU gun makers to compete so no DI ARs were submitted.

            Germany will most likely use the HK433 as HK is not entering the 416 because it’s to expensive for the German army to buy.

            Thank you for proving you have no clue about anything.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Oberland is an EU gun maker, makes DI guns such as this:

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/2e533d5e4c0ccc485ffdb352dce36f5bcd94ccc07cdc36f80bbc084caceaa00a.jpg

            But the French are not interested in DI guns.
            No one is

          • Joshua

            Saying Oberland could supply a country with a general purpose rifle is like saying Spikes tactical could supply the US Military with guns.

            Neither have the manufacturing capacity to supply and maintain a large military contract.

            Again you’ve been proven wrong. No DI gun was submitted to the French trials because no company big enough to produce the guns were allowed to(Colt Canada, Colt).

            Also Germany will not be adopting the 416(which you said they would be) because HK isn’t even tendering the 416 because it’s out of Germany’s price range.

          • Sermon 7.62

            I know that HK offered some modified version of 416, that is perhaps not as good as the original one, but the reason that no one submitted a DI gun in France was because the French didn’t want such a gun.

          • Joshua

            You are once again incorrect on the French trials.

          • Sermon 7.62

            It matters to the French if their gun is French-made or not but it doesn’t matter if it’s made in Europe or in the US.

            No one in Europe is fond of the DI guns

          • Joshua

            Must be why the SAS are using the L119A2.

            See I would explain to you why France wanted a Eurozone gun, but your tiny peanut brain lacks the comprehension to read, digest, and understand the politics.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Awww…)

          • Corey Sledd

            FN Herstal?

          • Joshua

            FN pushes the SCAR since it’s their own creation.

            Similar to SIG who since developing the MCX only pushes it and has all but forgotten the other rifles they make.

          • Uniform223
          • Sermon 7.62

            “No one” doesn’t include countries of the British Empire

          • iksnilol

            Plenty of DI ARs made in Germany. They’re sorta EU.

          • Joshua

            Which of those companies have the manpower to supply and maintain a large quantity military contract?

            Which of those companies tendered rifles to France?

            There’s a ton of companies making rifles in the US to. 99% could never maintain a government contract.

          • Uniform223

            The NZDF went from a gas piston system…

            http://68.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8liyhNy7I1qd9c4bo1_1280.jpg

            to a DI gas system…

            http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/12/10/new-zealand-defence-force-releases-sneak-peak-new-carbine/

            I guess you weren’t there to tell them that a DI gas operating system sucks.

          • Joshua

            Interesting note, is that at the same time their SF also held a separate competition and came out with a similar decision.

            Thought they went with a 14.5″ carbine LMT with the E-BCG, where as the NZDF went 16″ mid length LMT with standard BCG.

          • Sermon 7.62

            New Zealand is a part of the US and UK, i.e. Empire of the Freemasons

          • Bahahahahah, I’m a retired Lt. Col. now? Oh man, I’ve been called many things, but that takes the cake!

          • ostiariusalpha

            👏🎉🎈Congrats on your retirement with decoration, Nate!!!🎖🎉👏
            This day is just getting better and better for you.

          • nadnerbus

            Dude, you have to incorporate Lt Col into you TFB byline. Like Lt Col Nathaniel, veteran of the great meme war.

          • General of the Armies Nathaniel, who won a great victory for the SCHV Nation against the evil 6.8 SPC Empire in 2014. Never 5get.

          • valorius

            You’ll be drawing a nice pension for sure Nate!

          • n0truscotsman

            Only a current or former warrant officer *would* invent the term “Wehraboo”

            🙂

          • Oh crap, somebody knows my dark secret!

          • Uniform223
          • Sermon 7.62

            I think that Joshua and him work for the Operation Earnest Voice. Joshua is a 100% professional troll

          • iksnilol

            Uhm… you seen how fat and unshaven Nathaniel is? Not a military bone in his body.

            No offense at’chu boo, @nathaniel_f:disqus

          • No, it’s true, I’m a big ol’ doughy civilian.

            I am sure he’ll find a way to hold this against me, too.

          • iksnilol

            Man, I really hate you civilian Lt. Corporals. You’re like, like, the worst.

          • Don Ward

            This is just what I expect the reanimated corpse of Lt. Col. George Armstrong Custer to say. Your cover has been blown!

          • Mack

            Also no offense to Nathaniel, I highly doubt the US military is paying attention to a blog for the their research. But they should be coming to the same conclusions as Nathaniel because he was correct on there is better rifles for cheaper than the M27.

        • valorius

          What’s better about the M27? The thing is like 6x more money than an M4.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Lada is like 6x less than BMW. Does it mean that Lada is a better car?

          • valorius

            The M27 isn’t any better than the M4A1, it’s just more expensive.

        • Uniform223

          “I believe that for reasons undetermined, you are actively trying to influence and obstruct the acquisition of a better rifle ”

          > You do know that the M4A1 outlasted all other competitors in terms of service life in a test done by the US Army. All other competitors by the way were gas piston designs… designs in which so many people on the interwebs proclaim to be superior and more reliable than the DI gas operating system of the current M4A1…

          “I believe you are aware that a modified M27 would be a better rifle”

          > for 3K… barely. For 3K per unit cost it is only more accurate than current M16/M4s only because it has a match grade barrel. The US Army and USMC can install match grade barrels in their current M16/M4s for a much cheaper cost and have it be more readily available.

          If the M27 is so much better why would an elite force not be interested in it?

          http://soldiersystems.net/2017/05/08/usasoc-envisions-taking-sopmod-into-the-2020s-with-a-new-upper-receiver-group-for-its-m4a1s/

      • iksnilol

        Just like I’ll get a check in the mail from Evil Zionists inc. any day now.

        Welcome to the club.

    • No one

      Why don’t we save ourselves some actual time and not read your posts since nothing written by anyone pretentious enough to quote themselves in their own posts online has ever been worth listening to?

    • n0truscotsman

      the “uber Squad” idea is more propaganda than anything, funny you should say that. An amalgamation of idiocy contrived in the minds of geardos bitten by the good idea fairy who think throwing money at problems and reinventing the wheel will somehow make the infantry squad more deadly.

      But it wont.

      Unless you think spending more than twice for a rifle that isn’t as reliable with the new ammunition is somehow ‘groundbreaking’. LOL.

  • fedd

    whoo MILITARY.COM isnt only biased liberal webpage, sometimes they have technical info.

    In M27 i will like to see how USMC solve the problems with m855a1 in feed ramps .

  • James Kachman

    To be kind to the USMC… perhaps this is just a way to test the improvements possible with higher quality barrels, free float tubes, higher individual accuracy, better earpro for the guys, and polymer drum mags? Setting aside the piston and the chamber, the M27 really is just an upgraded M4, so perhaps this is giving them valuable experience related to their RFI?

    • roguetechie

      And their work with Colt Canada which no one seems to remember or factor into this conversation no matter how many times I point it out!

      Just like no one picks up the probable Arm West connection with the Colt Canada efforts even though Ian and his friend can be plainly seen in a full30 video firing radically enhanced full auto carbines with blatantly rapid prototyped furniture items which just HAPPEN to match pictures in the colt Canada presentation TFB reported on…

      • James Kachman

        Hmmm? Not sure what you’re talking about, can I see sources?

        • roguetechie

          Yeah you can, you’re on the internet and I gave you more than enough information to google everything in 10 seconds flat…

  • idahoguy101

    Given the young age of the average Marine PFC maybe they’d prefer being instead called an armed “geek squad”?

  • valorius

    The army tested drum mags in Afdirtistan and they failed pretty spectacularly. I’ve also read reports that the AR design overheats pretty badly with sustained fire from drum mags.

    • Sianmink

      Well the overheating is something the M27 is specifically designed against.

      • valorius

        Thermodynamics is thermodynamics- no ability to change what is a very short barrel and closed bolt operation is a recipe for overheating.

        I suspect that in actual operation the M27 is only slightly more effective at sustained fire than the M4A1.