BREAKING: FN was the other Finalist in the ICE Service Pistol Competition

Last week we reported that Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), which is part of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), adopted the SIG P320C as their next service handgun.

By law public officials must allow companies to bid on government contracts, but rumors circulated that ICE had deliberately written the solicitation request so that they could stick with SIG pistols after they retired their SIG P229 DAK pistols. Later rumors suggested that the entry from S&W was in fact going to win.

I recently spoke to a very credible source who told me that in fact ICE had narrowed down the selection to SIG and a pistol from FN.

I was not told what FN pistol was submitted to ICE for consideration, other than it was a variant tailored specifically to their requirements. It will be interesting to see if any innovations developed for this competition trickles down to their consumer.

This past year I have been impressed with FN’s marketing. They dropped the “USA” post-fix, no longer trying to distance themselves from their heritage, and have adopted the slogan “The World’s Most Battle-Proven Firearms”, embracing their military history to such an extent they are now selling a semi-automatic FN 249 variant to consumers! It’s a strong claim, but considering they have made the Browning Hi-Power, FN FAL, FN Minimi / M249, FN MAG / FN240 and Browning M2 it is a credible claim for a single manufacturer.



Steve Johnson

Founder and Dictator-In-Chief of TFB. A passionate gun owner, a shooting enthusiast and totally tacti-uncool. Favorite first date location: any gun range. Steve can be contacted here.


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  • Qba

    It’s FNS Compact, not FNX Tactical from img.

  • Sunshine_Shooter

    A very real part of me hopes that the FN pistol they almost chose was the Five-seveN. I know that it wasn’t, but a man can dream…

    • TheNotoriousIUD

      Definitely my next purchase.
      High capacity, low recoil. Im surprised more LEO’s dont use them.

      • john huscio

        Too much controversy about that particular gun and it’s ammo (“OMG ARMOR PENATRATING BUUULITTS!”) And questionable real world effectiveness with non AP rounds

        • TheNotoriousIUD

          I wish guns did half the crazy sh-t that people think they do.

          • nabba

            I heard they are working on a animated film sequel to ‘Pets’ called ‘Guns’ about what guns get upto when the owner isn’t home.

          • Just an hour and a half of a bunch of guns sitting motionless on a table while Colion Noir stands in the background with his arms crossed, staring unblinkingly at the camera.

          • valorius

            There are civilian legal rounds in 5.7mm that will defeat any IIIA vest on the market when fired from the Five Seven pistol.

          • TheNotoriousIUD

            I heard that, never knew if it was true or not.

          • valorius

            I’ve testd it personally, it’s true.

            Check out “Buffman” channel on you tube. He’s tested almost ever 5.7mm round around vs lvl II and IIIA armor.

            Elite S4M, Elite T6 and FN SS190 will all defeat all current IIIA vests when fired from the Five Seven pistol.
            FN SS192, SS195 and SS198 will defeat -some- level IIIA vests when fired from the pistol, and all IIIA vests from any of the carbines you can buy.

          • TheNotoriousIUD

            That is surprising to hear considering what a hard on the ATF has for such things.
            I wonder how/why they are still legal?

          • valorius

            Because AP ammo is defined as being constructed of very specific materials. The rounds that will defeat IIIA vests are made of regular old copper and/or aluminum, but are going so fast they easily defeat soft armor.

            In tests on Buffman’s channel I think Elite T6 went through like FIVE level IIIA panels. He has armor and gel tests for almost all five seven loads.

            Check it out.

          • TheNotoriousIUD

            Interesting, ill check it out after work.

            The next time people start freaking out about the next “cop killer” bullet they should realize that these have been on the market forever and police arent being murdered left and right with them.

          • valorius

            The Five Seven is called the “Muerta Policia” in Mexico, as it’s rumored to be very popular with the cartels. I suspect this is just nonsense.

          • TheNotoriousIUD

            Im calling mine “El Matador Tacocito”.

          • valorius
          • TheNotoriousIUD

            Damn nice setup, dude.
            That rocks.

          • valorius

            Thx, I sold it during the height of the gun ban craziness though. For about triple what i paid for it. 😀

          • supergun

            The Five Seven is a deadly weapon. With a silencer on it,,,,,the ultimate weapon.

          • TheNotoriousIUD
          • valorius

            That’s not a five seven…. 😀 Very nice!

          • TheNotoriousIUD

            No but it’s my baby
            Would you believe my dad bought it in 1985 for $750?

          • valorius

            You got a good dad. 🙂

          • TheNotoriousIUD

            Marines believe in firepower.

          • supergun

            Is that an AUTOMATIC? Worth about $20,000.00 isn’t it?

          • supergun

            Can you buy a threaded barrel to go on a regular Five Seven.

          • No one

            Elite Ammunition sells threaded barrels but they charge quite a bit for them.

          • supergun

            Thanks for the info 2.

          • valorius

            Yes. Elite Ammunition sells them. They specialize in a lot of Five Seven accessories.

          • supergun

            Thanks for the info.

          • supergun

            My wife calls hers, the BELGIUM.

          • supergun

            The AK is pretty popular,,,,especially since Fast and Furious.

          • Concerned Third Party

            it probably is. If cartels want to go after policia they just get the rifles out anyway. Or the grenade launchers -.-

          • supergun

            Left and right,,,,,huh? Since he has left office, not too many police have been killed, like they have the last 8.

          • supergun

            A gun is a gun.

          • supergun

            Fantastic Gun. One of the best for a LADY. My WIFE calls it HER BELGIUM.

          • No one

            I could post a video of an EA T6B (which is solid non-beryllium copper) penetrating 3 IIIA kevlar panels at 10m from a pistol barrel, but the bot might auto purge the link.

            Just search on youtube for T6 vs Level IIIA or something similar.

          • clampdown

            And on the flip side, that people would realize that any particular gun can be capable of crazy sh-t that it’s not “supposed” to do.

          • supergun

            Many do more.

        • valorius

          Didnt seem to have questionable effectiveness at fort hood when he dropped 2 soldiers and an orderly who initially tried to stop him, at point blank range.

          • john huscio

            Ammos more expensive and less plentiful than a good modern 9mm HP like federal HST or Winchester ranger too.

          • valorius

            5.7mm Ammo is actually pretty cheap. It’s about the same price as .45 acp.

          • And also a whole lot more fun to shoot.

          • john huscio

            Copied from a post by Dr. Roberts:
            10/13/11

            “Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm projectiles fired by the FN P90:

            –Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: �Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun”. Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.
            –Fackler M: “Errors & Omissions”, Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.
            –Fackler M: “More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90”, Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.
            –FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice–Federal Bureau of Investigation.
            –Hayes C: �Personal Defense Weapons�Answer in Search of a Question�, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.
            –Roberts G: �Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant�, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.

            “The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound–and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9……

            “A few large U.S. LE agencies adopted 5.7 mm weapons–after being involved in several OIS incidents with P90’s, 5.7 mm usage in these agencies plummeted as a result of the poor terminal performance.”

          • valorius

            Dr. Roberts is wrong. The Five Seven performed extremely effectively at Fort Hood.

            In the opening sequence of the attack the terrorist IMMEDIATELY incapacitated 2 soldiers and an orderly that attacked him, and when he was confronted by the police one round of 5.7mm to the knee of officer Munley completely disabled her.

            Roberts wrote all his lies about the 5.7mm without EVER having tested the rounds in gel.

          • n0truscotsman

            The 5.7 performed typical of a higher velocity, bottle necked cartridge. Nothing unique in that regard.

            And a shot to the kneecap with a 9mm or 38 special would produce equally devastating results. Bullets and joints don’t mingle peacefully.

            Typically bad guys require multiple bullets to stop them. This wouldve been true if the officer placed shots with a 45 ACP, a 5.7, or even a 5.56 from a patrol rifle. Nothing to mar the effectiveness of 9mm.

            And yeah you’re correct in your opinion of the dentist. He is not a credible authority on ballistics. Interesting stuff to read, but best with ample skepticism.

          • No one

            “ample skepticism” is a rather mild way of putting it, I can show multiple counts of him performing really deceptive acts, outright lying or manipulating results, or just flat out doing things no real ballistic expert would do.

            The guy is a complete writeoff as far as I (and many other ballistic experts more knowledgeable then myself by a pretty significant margin) are concerned.

            I’m not even trying to say that the FiveSeven is some wonder pistol that will just zap people dead, but it is generally far more effective then many give it credit for, mainly using the right loadings while having a bit of versatility and other good qualities like a very light weight a for a pistol of it’s size and very good accuracy and good trajectory, but in the end, pistols are still pistols and generally shouldn’t be your first choice at stopping a determined attacker unless it’s your only option.

            It just kind of rubs me the wrong way because these are usually the same types who think the 5.56x45mm “takes 6 hits to down a single man! its for jamomaotic poodleshooter rifles!” and other nonsense.

          • Zachary marrs

            Well post them then.

            The post that was copied also references some of Facklers work. Better run and find some stuff to discredit him too!

          • No one

            Wait for my reply to come off auto moderation for posting pictures and prepare to hide.

            Or fight a losing battle, either way I don’t care really.

          • valorius

            I agree with all your points.

            In any case, my point is- sadly, the 5.7mm pistol used that day performed with devastating effectiveness.

            Had the Five Seven failed to stop either of the two soldiers or the orderly that immediately counter attacked the terrorist wielding it, as many as 13 people would still be alive today, and 30 others would not have been wounded. It sadly stopped all three highly motivated men in their tracks.

          • Juanito Ibañez

            “Roberts wrote all his gibberish about the 5.7mm without EVER having tested the rounds in gel. It’s one of the many reasons the dude is a fraud.”

            Really, valorius?

            Then what was this:

            ‘Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90, Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant’, by Dr. Gary Roberts, AFTE (Association of Firearm and Toolmark Examiners) Journal, Volume 30, (Issue 2, Pages 326-329, Spring 1998.

          • valorius

            Came AFTER he’d discarded the 5.7mm as ‘useless.’

            I’m sure the people at fort hood wished it was useless.

          • Qba

            You write about SS190, but 5.7 is available in jacketed hollow point bullets like SS195 and SS198 or S4M.

          • valorius

            The best rounds for five seven are the Elite S4m and Elite T6. Both will easily defeat a level IIIA vest, both tumble end over end in gel, and the S4M violently sheds it’s jacket, which expands to almost .60 caliber.
            Both exceed 12″ in penetration in gel tests.

          • valorius

            SS195, 198 and S4M are actually more like OTM bullets. They don’t expand. Instead the yaw and tumble end over end. S4M has so much velocity that it violently sheds it’s jacket, which expands to almost .60 caliber.

          • No one

            Vmax tips perform even better against soft tissue and are more accurate then other FN branded loadings even.

            Though, as I said, you generally want to go with custom brands like Elite Ammunition or Vanguard Outfitters to get the best performance because they don’t intentionally underload their ammunition and use better bullet designs that take better advantage of the 5.7 platform.

          • No one

            You lost all credibility at “Dr. Roberts”, post a source from someone who isn’t a proven liar and fraud that even Fackler wanted nothing to do witho in his his little club after having enough of him if you want to be taken seriously.

            (Oh, and don’t even try to debate that Robets isn’t someone who intentionally lies and posts deceptive data while having no real experience in ballistics unless you want to get absolutely destroyed in that argument, thanks.)

          • Zachary marrs

            There are a half dozen reasons why that incident doesn’t prove what you want it to.

          • No one

            Do tell, I mean, it can’t be worse then you failing to cite all those LEOs who found it “lacking”.

            His example wasn’t perfect, but it does at least prove enough that the 5.7×28 is anything but a small performer and on par, if not better then standard caliber defensive pistol rounds depending on loadings and situations.

          • Zachary marrs

            Like people sh-tting all over people who have definitely done more research on this matter than they have, yet don’t have a single shred of proof beyond a mass shooting?

            His example is so far from perfect, its stupid.

          • No one

            Lol, Gary Roberts hasn’t done a day of actual unbiased “research” in his life, the only people who still listen to that complete hack are those who are just as blind as he is and wont change their opinion no matter how much evidence is placed in front of him, or those who are ignorant to who he truly is.

          • Zachary marrs

            Ok, can you prove that?

          • valorius

            There are four reasons why it does.

          • Zachary marrs

            Mass shootings are not good indicators of a cartridges ballistic prowess.

            And unless you can prove that the same could not have been accomplished with any other handgun round, well….

          • valorius

            When you shoot someone that’s highly trained, motivated, and actively trying to smash your face in, and they drop immediately, it is a good indicator of the rounds effectiveness.

            Even when you don’t personally like the result.

            Your second point is absolutely ridiculous.

          • Zachary marrs

            Lol. No.

            Just stop. It doesn’t matter if he used 5.7 or .357 magnum, a mass shooting is a terrible piece of evidence.

            The plural of anecdotal is not data

          • Robert Kalani Foxworthy

            was also able to fend off millitary police as he had them out ranged. You can shoot with ease at distances that most would struggle to shoot accurately at.

        • supergun

          I have one. No controversy about the Five Seven. Magnificent Gun.

        • Juanito Ibañez

          FN has always restricted their ‘armor-piercing’ 5.7×28mm ammunition to LE and military entities.

          IOW: it was always a ‘nonissue’ blown all out of proportion by gun controllers like the Brady Campaign and Democrat lawmakers like Frank Lautenberg and Eliot Engel (look up their ‘PLEA Act’ submissions to Congress).

      • valorius

        I had one with a threaded barrel- with Elite Ammunition it is an absolute beast.

        • TheNotoriousIUD

          Sweet.

      • Given how few training rounds the average department puts downrange in a year, they probably want the few that actually do hit the bad guys in a shootout to have more of an effect than stabbin’ ’em with an icepick.

        Don’t get me wrong, the Five-seveN is an awesome little space laser and I would totally get one if I had that kind of scratch, but for professional use it’s a niche weapon.

        • TheNotoriousIUD

          All my handguns are either bulky.45’s or flippy little.380’s.
          With that round I could do eye surgery.

        • valorius

          5.7mm rounds tumble end over end, they do not produce a wound like an “ice pick”….none of them do.

          • Concerned Third Party

            Tumbling means they produce wounds like a chainsaw chain.

          • valorius

            That doesn’t sound pleasant at all.

      • Kivaari

        The limited reports suggest it isn’t a very effective cartridge. Cops also don’t like to carry a gun that can penetrate their own body armor. Better to have something that will be stopped by your vest.

        • TheNotoriousIUD

          Well that’s faulty logic at best.
          And an indicator of a training deficit.

          • Kivaari

            How so. In an era where we carried .357 magnum revolvers many of us carried a couple .38 to come up first so if disarmed it gave us a better chance of taking a hit in a vest. I shot vests with .357 and it wasn’t pretty. Reality shows cops get shot with their own gun. better to have a load that doesn’t penetrate your own armor.

          • valorius

            I posted the stats for that some time ago if you recall. There are IIIA vests that will stop most 5.7mm loads. And some that won’t.

          • Amplified Heat

            Mixing 38 & 357 sounds like a great way to screw up your aim, and possibly tie up the gun during ejection, unless you swab after each ejection.

          • Kivaari

            Not at all. You go into it with a clean gun. Your on duty with a clean revolver with two 38 loads ready to come up first. That’s because the vests at the time did not perform like toady. A .357 would come out the back wrapped in a ball of Kevlar. I always said the doctor could just stand on your chest and pull the bullet out. Aim? At handgun ranges who cared. Most shootout took place at arms length. A long distance shot would be the length of a patrol car. It’s not like you would be going for the guys left eye, but center mass.
            We eventually learned that using .357 was not a good thing. The recoil and flash was excessive. In order to keep shot on target in rapid fire we went to .38 special, what was then called the “Q-load” or the first +P before there was a plus P. Some of us had Norma .38 Spl. that was a great cross over load. Hot but not so bad as to destroy accuracy during rapid fire.
            This was all in an era when we “trained” with .38 and carried .357. Then we learned better. I was allowed to carry a 9mm for about 1 month, then it just drove the chief nuts. People were talking about the gun nut with the automatic. It was too much for the public. Times have changed.

        • valorius

          At fort hood it was tremendously effective. It had 4 immediate stops in close quarters vs determined trained attackers.

          Pretty hard to beat that.

        • No one

          Maybe cops shouldn’t be carrying SS190 then or actually take more time at the range?

          When not using rounds design to defeat body armor, 5.7x28mm has very good effects against targets for a pistol/PDW round.

        • Amplified Heat

          Why not market it as “strong enough for a cop, but made for a criminal” in that case?

      • 22winmag

        The FN 5-7 and it’s cartridge were rendered obsolete with the advent of Liberty ammo in common calibers. I get 2,000fps out of my .40 and 2,400fps out my my 10mm.

        • TheNotoriousIUD

          Yeah but you’re 10 mm doesn’t hold 20 plus one.

        • valorius

          With vastly more recoil than you get from 5.7mm, and with far less capacity.

          But if you’re happy with your choice, i’m fine with it too. 🙂

          • No one

            Don’t forget the terrible lack of ample penetration even against unarmored targets due to the terrible sectional density from using bullets that light in said calibers!

            I used to think the Liberty ammunition civil defense line was at least interesting, but as my more wise ballistic friends confirmed to me, they’re really just rounds that give EMTs a headache as opposed to actually giving any real killing power over standard JHPs for standard pistol calibers. (and considering pistols are just bad in the first place even with the correct ammo at stopping a determined attacker compared to rifles….why would you intentionally gimp yourself?)

            Now, fragmenting solid copper rounds for the 5.7mm from brands like EA and their T6B and VO’s 36gr black fangs (which are very similar in design, both are also loaded hotter then FN who underloads their commercial 5.7 ammunition) actually do have enough sectional density to penetrate deep enough and fragment with very impressive terminal effects with much better recoil and accuracy at ranges a pistol is actually viable in. all while still being able to penetrate IIIA vests and helmets which Liberty Ammunition also won’t do at around 25-50m.

            But, keep letting him post on how hes clearly right about everything despite his rudimentary understanding of ballistics, watching him fail at understanding certain concepts is amusing.

          • valorius

            I’m not familiar with VO’s ammo offerings in 5.7mm. I’ll have to check that out, thanks for the heads up.

          • No one

            Vanguard Outfitters.

            A lot of theirs are similar to EA’s, though they have some loadings EA doesn’t do though like 50 gr Barnes TSX rounds and they used sinterfire frangibles before EA started doing it, their’s don’t have the same projectile weight though. (45 vs either 50 or 55, I forget.)

          • valorius

            EA used to load a TSX round but the velocity was too low for it to expand from the five seven- it just tumbled in gel. I don’t recall what the weight was.

            A TSX projectile that expands at Five Seven pistol velocities would be an outstanding addition to the line.

          • No one

            I’ve fired them into pork shoulder (bone in) before at 10m distance not exactly the most scientific method as I wasn’t sure if the temperature was right (it wasn’t supposed to be submitted as evidence for anything, just sating my curiosity), but it did get some pretty nice expansion out of a FiveSeven barrel and penetrated 3 of the water jugs I had as a backstop, 4th one caught it.

          • valorius

            In the gel tests i’ve seen it just tumbled end over end- not that end over end tumbling isn’t effective in it’s own right.

          • No one

            When I did the pork shoulder test with VO’s TSX loadings, they expanded to about 8.7-9.2mm out of 3 test shots. Probably the big deciding factor was that they all hit bone, and the effects they had on said pork bone and meat was….pretty brutal honestly.

          • valorius

            You mean they weren’t “like ice picks?” 😉

          • No one

            the 1st and 2nd shots performed very similarly.

            1st expanded to 9.2mm, broke the shoulder bone in 2 places, exited out the back and popped the first jug rather violently with a bit of tissue and bone fragments still in it, passed though the 2nd and 3rd and ended up in the 4th.

            2nd did the same, only it expanded to 8.7mm.

            the 3rd I suspect I missed the bone on, I saw some visible meat and blood splatter that was evidenced on the first jug which popped like the first 2 first test jugs, but it went through the 4th and exited out the side of the 5th, despite my best efforts to predict where it went and look for it, I wasn’t able to recover it.

        • Amplified Heat

          How much speed does such a light, fat bullet shed even ten yards from the muzzle, though? Considering that you really need at least 1700-1800fps minimum to reliably punch armor, a poor BC like that hurts you real quick, and factors in once more after getting through the armor, when it slows abruptly upon hitting tissue.

          • No one

            Civil defense won’t penetrate body armor even with that velocity.

            And even then, that’s not the real problem with it so much as that it’s a dumb gimmick round marketed to mall ninjas that’s even less effective then your bog standard JHPs. for “standard” caliber pistol when you’re firing at actual attackers and not gel blocks. (not that performs that well in gel blocks either, but I digress.)

        • Concerned Third Party

          Not obsolete at all. Just because you defeat the point of a big bore by making the bullet light and jacking up the velocity doesn’t make 5.7 obsolete. By your logic 5.56 is obsolete because I’m sure anything pushing 2400 fps from a pistol will hit 2700 fps out of a rifle. I don’t think a 2400 fps 60 grain 10mm is going to deliver anywhere near the smack down of a 200 grain going 1600 fps.

      • Sam

        Why should more law enforcement use it…? How often does an LEO encounter someone with body armor on?

        Never?

        There is literally one reason to have that gun, and because we (the average citizen) can’t get SS190… it’s never going to fulfill its intended purpose of defeating body armor. Makes a big bang when you shoot it, though, so I guess there’s that.

        • Kivaari

          Encountering people with body armor is increasing. Look at Orlando where the female cop shot it out with the wanted killer. He killed her, he had body armor and her shots failed.

        • No one

          Because the FiveSeven shoots flatter and more accurately, holds more rounds (even with the 30 round magazine extensions, the size increase compared to high capacity mags in other pistol calibers is minimal, even without, 20 rounds is still very good for a pistol still) has very little recoil, is very light for it’s size, and contrary to popular belief, still has many bullet type choices for various situations making it really versatile aswell as a high capacity compact PDW to match it?

          the fact it can shoot AP rounds is just a bonus, and you’re kind of being foolish if you think a criminal won’t ever wear body armor, look at the poster below me on the Orlando shootout, and the North Hollywood shootout where cops armed with 9mm handguns and shotguns were powerless to stop the 2 robbers covered in full soft body armor until someone had to literally go to a civilian gunstore and pick up some AR-15s to punch through their vests.

          • No one

            And to be fair, I’m not saying everyone should use a FiveSeven, it does have alot of plus side, but every gun has it’s drawbacks.

            One rather massive one for PDs would be price since the FiveSeven isn’t exactly the cheapest pistol in the world, Police agencies are very budget minded, one of the biggest reasons H&K designed the UMP series for example was because alot of PDs found the MP5 too expensive.

      • Zachary marrs

        Because the ones that have used p90’s and mp7’s have found the caliber lacking

        • No one

          I guess you better tell the Navy SEALS the 4.6x30mm is found lacking, considering they use the MP7 over the MP5 now because of your completely unsourced claim about LEO’s not liking it.

          And that’s considering the 4.6x30mm was found LESS effective and matured when submitted against the 5.7x28mm in NATO trials, the 5.7x28mm would be very likely be a NATO approved caliber today if Germany didn’t protest it’s introduction after H&K cried foul after losing performance tests to it.

          • Zachary marrs

            “Muh SEALS” the sources have already been posted, all you need to do is read

            Just because a group (like tbe SEALS) use it, doesn’t mean its a good choice for anything else

            Do you use the same appeal to authority for any other arguments?

          • No one

            LOL. you’re telling me to not appeal to authority when your sole case rests on the word of Gary Roberts, who isn’t actually a real ballistician, is a fraud who manipulates data or even flat out lies about it (photoshop is one of his favorite) and does things like thinking gel = 100% simulation of a human body?

            Man, the cognitive dissonance is strong with you, I’ll take the opinions of the SEALs, you know, the highest choir of all SOCOM units on par only with Delta Force who actually use them over some hack that Fackler kicked to the curb after realized he knew nothing.

          • Zachary marrs

            I havent put any of my stock on Roberts. I have not defended him, or his practices, his findings, etc.

            You seem to have quite the bine to pick with him

          • No one

            “Like people sh-tting all over people who have definitely done more
            research on this matter than they have, yet don’t have a single shred of
            proof beyond a mass shooting?

            His example is so far from perfect, its stupid.”

            Your exact words btw, so you’re defending Roberts as “someone who as definitely done more research on the topic then we have (which he hasn’t btw)” and were just making fun of him as your only actual claim to authority in this thread, and going so far as to claim that he sourced Fackler, who 1. hated Roberts and 2. never actually did any tests on the 5.7x28mm round, on the other hand, Roberts DID have gel tests commissioned that post date Fackler that, when published, copied his exact style, hmmm….

            There’s a reason we’re “sh-tting” on him as we put it, it’s because the only actual “proof” someone posted against the round came from a source by him, a known liar and fraud as I just proved in my post regarding the M855 (and there’s plenty more where that came from if you want to keep playing games). and said person never even posted a real argument of own.

            But for someone who has no invested interest in him and no sources other then him, you sure seem to be rather defensive whenever I take a jab at him, projecting much?

      • Concerned Third Party

        Can LEOs individually purchase the SS190 ammo for themselves? If not, what’s the point, might as well get 18 rounds of 9mm.

        • No one

          I have 2 boxes of SS190 sitting in my ammo drawer and I’m a civilian….

      • Wow!

        LEA don’t issue them because they are expensive (ammo and weapon) and they aren’t very good at stopping people fast. It does have very low overpenetration and low recoil for it’s energy. The cartridge works best in an automatic platform like the P90. Basically you want to do it like a shotgun, poke as many holes as you can, but with the added benefit of somewhat less liability.

        If you need ammo, check out Palmetto State Armory. Cheapest 57 boxes I can find at $16. Be aware though that sometimes the daily deal is real FNH, and other times it is AE. I never had problems with AE, but people report they do so… yeah.

        Somewhat unrelated note, I have been testing a home build of a MAC in 22TCM and I think it is an MP7 killer. The cartridge is much bulkier than 4.6 but it has so much more energy that it doesn’t make a difference that you lose a bit of mag capacity. I really hope a company starts producing these kinds of uppers because I think it would be a serious home defense option for the low penetration of the 5.56 but in a cheaper and smaller package. Actually heck, I just want more people to realize the joys of a MAC.

        • No one

          “LEA don’t issue them because they are expensive (ammo and weapon) and
          they aren’t very good at stopping people fast. It does have very low
          overpenetration and low recoil for it’s energy. The cartridge works best
          in an automatic platform like the P90. Basically you want to do it like
          a shotgun, poke as many holes as you can, but with the added benefit of
          somewhat less liability.”

          If you bothered to actually read anything about ballistics or the comments here at all, you might realize how dumb this statement sounds.

          The 5.7x28mm performs just as well, if not better in the right situations with the right bullet choices (you know, like you do for any gun) then any standard sized pistol caliber, pistols IN GENERAL are not good at stopping people very fast, the only time to actually use one in a firefight is if you have no other option because you don’t have access to a rifle or even a shotgun.

          Overpenetration is also a rather moot point as this basically never happens unless you’re using FMJs. JHPs will basically never do a full penetration on a man sized targets which is what you should be using.

          • Wow!

            I’ve done more than just read about the cartridge, I’ve played around with it. I understand subcalibers are not as good as rifle calibers. My assessment was comparing 5.7 to other subcalibers. Shot per shot, 5.7 just isn’t as effective as other calibers mainly because it is relying on velocity which degrades, while most subcalibers rely on mass which is static. However, you can carry more of 5.7 than other subcalibers. You may need to use more shots with the 5.7 but you can put those shots fast and spread it across the body (hence my shotgun analogy) which depending on shot placement can be more effective than a few shots from other calibers.

            Overpenetration happens quite often even with expanding bullets. It is probably the norm rather than the exception. I don’t know of any source that says overpenetration is rare except for that youtube video of a doctor analyzing wounds he gets. Take note, he does not see all casualties, only ones that survive to get to him. It is well known that there is a significant risk of bullets passing clean through individuals even with very small pocket calibers, enough so that entrance and exit wounds are a thing for forensics. This can be caused by a variety of factors from the bullet missing bone, to the hollow point failing to expand (yes, hollow points fail. Any mechanism of the bullet can fail, and that is more common than not. Pretty petal expansion is generally what we see in gel, not too often in reality).

            Aside from hitting the target, the other factor is missing the target. 5.7 and 5.56 in an expanding bullet has impressively low penetration even in something as flimsy as drywall. This is not seen in other cartridges.

            Over penetration is a major issue, enough that they teach anyone who carries a gun about it. If you doubt this, you can probably look up a shooting footage and look for dust cloud that is kicked up behind the target. That isn’t the officer missing, that is the bullet core sailing through.

          • No one

            Ok, perhaps I was being a bit rude to you yesterday, but I was rather tired and cranky for being up nearly 48 hours. let me actually address your points more constructively this time.

            “Shot per shot, 5.7 just isn’t as effective as other calibers mainly because it is
            relying on velocity which degrades, while most subcalibers rely on mass
            which is static”

            If anything, it can argued it’s more effective, mainly when you take one important effect into account, pistols aren’t designed for large engagement ranges and mostly as personal defense tools for when you can’t just tote a rifle or shotgun again. Velocity is actually a better killer then mass is against thin skinned targets like men, mainly with proper bullet construction and design, and realistically, most fights with a pistol will rarely exceed 25m with 10m or less actually being more common, 50m takes alot of practice but you aren’t likely to be attacked from that far away, and 100m is something only an exceptionally amazing shot would actually be able to pull off on a moving target without a rifle. the Velocity bleed of the 5.7x28mm isn’t going to be an issue at these ranges. there’s also one thing you’re really not taking into account is that, while the 5.7×28 does have less mass, It does generally have much better aerodynamics due to the fact it uses a relatively long for it’s diameter (for a pistol at least) Spitzer point bullet as opposed to round nosed, stubbier bullets, this also allowed them to use ballistic tipped rounds which are incredibly effective at high velocity against flesh which standard calibers cannot.

            “Overpenetration happens quite often even with expanding bullets. It is
            probably the norm rather than the exception. I don’t know of any source
            that says overpenetration is rare except for that youtube video of a
            doctor analyzing wounds he gets. Take note, he does not see all
            casualties, only ones that survive to get to him. It is well known that
            there is a significant risk of bullets passing clean through individuals
            even with very small pocket calibers, enough so that entrance and exit
            wounds are a thing for forensics. This can be caused by a variety of
            factors from the bullet missing bone, to the hollow point failing to
            expand (yes, hollow points fail. Any mechanism of the bullet can fail,
            and that is more common than not. Pretty petal expansion is generally
            what we see in gel, not too often in reality).”

            Underpenetration is actually seen as a bigger risk then Overpenetration with JHPs, even if it does sometimes happen, more often then not it won’t. The times it does happen is usually when a round strikes a target in a less meaty area like the arm, keep in mind a round penetrating 15 or so inches in gel doesn’t mean much, gel is good at comparing other rounds to each other and getting some ideas of how a round will perform, a human torso is much different froma gel block, featuring flesh, bone, muscle and connective tissue, and organs of varying properties, no simulated target can truly simulate a human attacker, the closest you can get is what the FBI or Military does when they need the best results possible and sign off on ethical papers for permission to shoot at knocked out or recently deceased Pigs of Sheep, as these are the closest physiological matches to humans, most people can’t afford to do this or go through the headache of how much paperwork this actually takes, but in general, you’ll be lucky to get even half the penetration you do on simulated targets or gel using an actual living/recently deceased Pig or Sheep. speaking of videos, there’s even one exactly like this where someone testing Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator rounds in 9mm gets something like 26-28″ of calibrated gel penetration, (If I loink said video, the bot is likely to auto purge my reply for at least 12 hours before it gets approved) he then shoots a pig corpse shoulder to shoulder, the length between which isn’t even half of that, and it doesn’t even come close to exiting out the other side. and these aren’t even JHPs, these are gimmicky cross cut solid copper non expanding rounds in essence. JHPs can and do fail under certain circumstances yes, but cases of people being wounded by overpenetration are exceptionally rare (I’m not saying it hasn’t happened ever, but it’s far, far less common then a round not going deep enough to cause any major injuries.)

            Basically, you should be far more worried about a round not penetrating enough as this means there’s a good chance it won’t reach deep enough into a determined attacker to actually stop him then penetrating too deep,

            “Aside from hitting the target, the other factor is missing the target.
            5.7 and 5.56 in an expanding bullet has impressively low penetration
            even in something as flimsy as drywall. This is not seen in other
            cartridges.”

            This has little to do with mass, infact, FMJs from pistols will penetrate things like sandbags better then some rifle rounds because the sheer speed they move it does the same trick they do in flesh and bone, it causes them to move so fast through it their structural integrity is compromised and they;; tear themselves apart, even 7.62x51mm FMJs tested in sandbags will penetrate less then pistol FMJs because of this *check the box o truth and their sandbag test for a pretty good picture of this in action), not all materials are built equal and there’s no linear formula to determine penetration vs all targets as it varies greatly from target to target and from penetrator to penetrator.

            And, all that aside, this isn’t even true 100% of the time, yeah, high velocity rounds may prematurely fragment or hold together and yaw of course in targets like sandbags or drywall, but there is a nice site of someone who tested 5.56mm and 5.7x28mm out of a longer AR57 barrel (where said round at an even higher velocity then a pistol barrel can put out is even more likely to tear itself to pieces) called how-I-did-it .org (have to space it or bot will auto purge it) where both SS195 and SS197SR can and do clear 3 thick sheets of drywall without issue.

            “Over penetration is a major issue, enough that they teach anyone who
            carries a gun about it. If you doubt this, you can probably look up a
            shooting footage and look for dust cloud that is kicked up behind the
            target. That isn’t the officer missing, that is the bullet core sailing
            through.”

            Like I said, many ballistics experts will tell you underpenetration is a much more danerous issue then overpenetration as the former is far more likely to get you killed when your attacker keeps going, and like I said, I never said it doesn’t ever happen, but the amount of times it does happen with JHPs, mainly with properly made JHP rounds that are designed to reliably expand, not shed their jacket or get plugged by things like clothing easily happen much less then a round failing to go deep enough and delivering a potentially incapacitating wound.

          • No one

            One main point I forgot to add to the Epilogue there is that, if a JHP does consistently overpenetrate a target even if you do hit center mass or the legs and thighs, that’s usually a symptom of the failure of the round you’re using to perform as intended and you should check your options, proper round selection is very important in more then just hunting.

        • TheNotoriousIUD

          That does sound rather interesting.
          Share some pics after build please.

          • Wow!

            I don’t post pictures of my stuff for privacy reasons, but it looks exactly the same as a regular M-11 since it uses the same magazine and bolt. The barrel was a Green Mountain barrel turned down to an M4 barrel profile (minus the port) and press fit and pinned (like an AK) to a new trunnion made from 1/2″ thick scrap steel that I welded onto an upper (which I made from square tubing). The MAC series of SMG/subcaliber carbines are extremely easy to work with and modify. Its just machine and weld or bolt in place.

            You should be able to have a gunsmith rework a new upper for your existing lower if needed.

    • Kivaari

      A 5.7mm, really?

    • RealitiCzech

      It’s a remarkable pistol. The weight of a damn airsoft gun, recoil that makes 9mm look excessive, fantastic accuracy. The only real downside (especially when using FMJ) is price.

  • Mmmtacos

    “…rumors circulated that ICE had deliberately written the solicitation request so that they could stick with SIG pistols…”

    As someone that has seen bids of a different sort it’s funny how these things happen sometimes. Public entities may be required to do bids by law, but they know what they want, so they will word the requirements of their bid to such specific verbiage it could only be the specific product they want.

    They could, in the instance of the Sig P320C they could say it had to have a removeable chassis, polymer framed, striker fired, 1913 rail, front serrations, have a barrel length less than 4″, empty weight of no more than 26oz, etc.

    Eventually the wording would get to the point where no other pistol could possibly fit the criteria other than a Sig P320C. But hey, they put the bid out there and didn’t specifically ask for Sig…

    • Anonymoose

      And then the accountants decide to buy Glocks anyway.

      • Mmmtacos

        Haha, yeah, pretty much…

        “This does mostly what you want and is $5 cheaper” But I don’t want that “Too late, we already bought it, deal with it”

        The bean counters penny pinch like nobodies business. I have seen a lot of situations where they’ll save a buck and end up costing themselves the difference in the originally desired product several times over because of lost business, downtime, repair/shipping costs, etc.

      • valorius

        LOL…that’s cause accountants never get Glock leg.;)

    • CapeMorgan

      Agency managers try to limit competition using restrictive requirements all of the time. It is human nature. But under the FAR, if an agency tries that, they have to be able to show to GAO why certain characteristics are required for a product or service. If they can’t, they would lose any protest. That is the cause of KO’s and Program Managers always going at odds with each other over contract specs.

  • DW

    FN’ WHAT?

    • Amplified Heat

      Big FN-D.

  • valorius

    All govt agencies should use the same basic pistol design to get volume discounts. We’d save billions in the long run.

    • Tom

      Unless your going to have a top down order from POTUS that all agencies will now use X and only X and said order survives Congress and the Supreme Court then by the time everyone agreed to a given design the rest of the world would be packing plasma rifles in the 40 watt range.

      • valorius

        I see no reason why a president couldnt make such a mandate. It really would save a ton of money.

        • Tom J

          I would suggest you read the actual contract. The cost is already fairly low, considering the price includes, training, spare parts, and a multi year warranty on the guns. At the end of the day, the cost to outfit ICE with a new gun is insignificant when you look at the enormous amounts of money most government agencies waste on a daily basis, mostly on trivial garbage.

          • valorius

            It would be even lower if all departments used it.

  • Nagurski

    Besides all the machine guns, I’m pretty sure FN is currently making the M16/M4s that the military is using. Their “most battle-proven firearms” claim is actually pretty solid.

    • No one

      They also made the FAL, which got the name of “The right arm of the free world” for a damn good reason considering how long and how many countries used it.

      The SCAR, while somewhat shaky on the SOCOM adoption (who went for the 17 over the 16 almost completely) is also making waves to some point, and has quite a few adopters around the world or other companies taking inspiration from it.

      • Amplified Heat

        FAL/FN49, Hi Power, FN30, FN-D, M249, MAG, FNC/SCAR, and the M4; I’d argue FN is more battle proven than any other private company at this point, up there with HK but much larger. The state armories and Colt *were* holders of the title, but died out over the course of the “peace dividend” last century.

        • The Blinded One

          Colt didn’t really die out because of the “peace dividend”. They lost a lot of their top executives when someone didn’t put the childproof locks back on the cabinet under the executive washroom sink. The remaining few that could get dressed all on their own fell victim to the sharp corners of the boardroom table.

  • Seth Hill

    You had me at FAL.

  • GD Ajax

    So the big question on the mind is was it the (57) Mk2 or the FNS? As those are the most recent pistols to come out of FN.

    • Amplified Heat

      I’d have submitted the 5.7 for sure. In fact, if I were FN, I’d submit it for every contract to remind these mil/leo agencies of how FN was strung along for nothing in the great PDW caper in the 90’s because of sleazy competitions with predetermined winners like this one.

    • No one

      The only other pistol aside from those 2 series they still make under their own brand that’s still still in production is the FNX series, which is more or less a product improved version of the discontinued FNP line.

      Which of the 3 in the series they actually submitted( or maybe multiple models, who knows?) Is obviously a mystery despite the fact everyone here is talking about the FiveSeven, when I’d see the FNS actually the most likely candidate to be submitted since striker fired polymer framed service weapons are all the rage these days. Not that I have anything against striker fired or polymer framed guns, not at all, just saying it was the most likely choice going by current market and contract trends.

  • Daniel Lewis

    My FNS 9c is the best pistol I have ever owned, the trigger is as good as a aftermarket custom job. In fairness I do not have a sig pistol so maybe they are as good but man that FN is amazing.

  • You can have your Model T in any color– as long as it’s a SIG P320C.

  • 22winmag

    FN 5-7 with FN ammo ~2,000fps

    FNS-40 with Liberty ammo ~2,000fps

    The 5-7 is essentially obsolete.

    • No one

      Can you not post on ballistics matters if you don’t actually know anything about ballistics?

      Thanks.

    • Amplified Heat

      Ballistic coefficients, please. Because that factor directly affects penetration as well as velocity loss from the muzzle. I hear those plastic-bullet German 308 training rounds get some pretty crazy MVs as well.

  • Bal256

    It would be nice if FN submitted an FNX tactical in 9 or 40, and then decided to release it to the public.

    • No one

      In theory you could just make one yourself, considering the rather large price difference between the FNX-45 and the tactical variant, you could pay about the same to add a threaded barrel and raised night sights to a standard FNX-9 or FNX-40, the optics mount would obviously require some gunsmithing, but I’m sure you could find someone to do it.

  • ToddB

    FN would have been the better choice. My FNS40 is fully ambi, no switching the mag release, no right side slide lock that just bends. I tried a Sig 320 at the same shop, the right side slide lock was pretty much useless, it bent vs releasing the slide. I had a P250 for a little bit, but it was not very reliable. My FN has never failed. It has a very nice trigger out of the box, no buying upgrade parts. No plastic sights like a Glock, no plastic recoil spring guide like a Glock. Only thing I did to mine was buy a 9mm conversion barrel and rechamber it in 357 sig.