USMC Releases RFI for 11,000 More IARs, Rumors Abound of Pure-Fleeted M27 Standard Rifle

Earlier today, the United States Marine Corps Systems Command released a request for information (RFI) to manufacturers regarding the industry’s capability to fill an order for 11,000 new IAR-type rifles. You can read the RFI over at this link at FedBizOpps.

There has already been speculation that this RFI is an indication that the USMC plans to pure-fleet the M27 as the standard infantry weapon, replacing the M4 and M16 rifles. However, it should be noted that 11,000 IARs is not anywhere near enough weapons to replace all of the rifles in the Corps. There are currently 24 USMC infantry battalions of about 1,000 men per, which is expected to increase to 30 battalions in the near future. Including spares, et cetera, the minimum number of rifles needed to pure-fleet the Corps on M27 would have to be probably at least 40,000-50,000 rifles, if not more. An order of rifles of that size would very likely be far too expensive for the Marine Corps, making such a proposition a non-starter at the moment.

Likely, the purpose of the 11,000 rifle RFI is to explore further options for manufacturing IAR-type rifles to further replace the remaining M249 SAWs. While the Heckler & Koch M27 is a very good rifle, it is extremely expensive to procure, and presents problems for importation. Unit price for an M27 is far higher than for a comparable weapon like an M4, and even though the rifles are made in the United States, the materials used to make them must be imported.

There are elements in the USMC who want to see the capability of the M27 incorporated into the standard rifle. While the most straightforward way to accomplish this would be to simply procure large numbers of M27s, this is also the most expensive option. What would be much less expensive would be to find a way to upgrade existing M4 Carbines with components that would give them capability similar to the M27, and for a Corps with a very tight budget this seems like the most practical way forward.



Nathaniel F

Nathaniel is a history enthusiast and firearms hobbyist whose primary interest lies in military small arms technological developments beginning with the smokeless powder era. In addition to contributing to The Firearm Blog, he runs 196,800 Revolutions Per Minute, a blog devoted to modern small arms design and theory. He is also the author of the original web serial Heartblood, which is being updated and edited regularly. He can be reached via email at nathaniel.f@staff.thefirearmblog.com.


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  • Joseph Smith

    Great news for the “New Corps” Carbinepersons.
    This will change everything!

    • LCON

      Your sarcasm is weak on fact The USMC has already made M4 There official service rifle as of October 2015, M27 has a barrel 2 inches longer than M4. This would make M27 closer to a rifle then M4,

      • FOC Ewe

        Every Marine a Rifleman. ?

        • GD Ajax

          Until 2022 when they all become aircraft mechanics. Due to the flawed movement towards Air Assault like American Armed Forces pre-Veitnam.

      • Ron

        The A4 remains the service rifle, what is on going to transitioning all infantry and LAR battalions to M4s, while the other 2/3 of the operating forces will still use A4s

      • Joseph Smith

        Yes, we all know the M4 is the service weapon as new Marines will likely call it.

        16″ does not a rifle make.
        But good post.

  • Guy Slack

    I mean… why not go with LWRC 16″ M6A2’s? Do we really need to pay the exorbitant overhead that HK guns go for?

    • LCON

      Already inventoried. It’s a lot easier for the Marines to back door the transition if the weapon is already official issue.

      • Yes, but expensive.

        • Drew Remington

          There’s closersome to 27 INFANTRY bns, not including reservists. There’s a lot more if you’re saying “battalions in the marine corps”… a lot more.

          We’re probably sitting around 20,000 infantryman.

          There’s already 3-6 thousand in service.

          Add 11,000 and we’don’t be close to having one for almost every infantry marine…

          Why?

          Because not all infantrymen carry the m16 series… machine gunners have m4s and SNCO’S and officers will most likely continue carrying the m4.

          I see what the did and giggle. As soon as we replace all the m4s we’ll most likely push saws back to the squad and there will be one AR (auto rifleman) per team, again as per doctrine

          • int19h

            Yup, that’s what I think they’re trying to do, too – and I suspect it was the plan for the very beginning. The Corps has effectively found a replacement for M16 that they always wanted (as opposed to M4). Interestingly, so far as I can tell, IAR is also lighter than M16A4, while being more accurate.

            Anyway, “Every Marine is an automatic rifleman” doesn’t sound bad.

          • Stan Darsh

            “Every Marine an automatic rifleman” went over better with the focus group than “Every Marine a carbineman”.

      • aka_mythos

        Pretty much this. LWRC M6A2 is $2350. The Marines previously paid $3000 for their IAR. Now maybe LWRC charges a far better mark up and can come down on that price for volume… but the moment they have qualify the design, qualify the rifle, qualify the production line, and meet source control requirements… But that higher volume can also be a liability. Assuming they can scale up, they would have to expand the production line which then has to be used solely for source controlled articles… that price tag to the Marines jumps up likely meeting or exceeding the IAR’s.

    • n0truscotsman

      Why not go with a M4 PIP? The LWRC and 416 dont do anything that the newest iteration of M4 cant already do.

      • LCON

        In the End I think that late this year early next year the Army and Marines will come back to a M4A1 PIP. I think the thing that is happening is the Marines are getting a taste for full selective fire like the A1 and liking it. about the only thing I think will happen to the M27 is hopefully adoption of a highcap magazine.

        • Machinegunnertim

          Would be nice if the IAR was a light belt fed like the SHRIKE.

          • Brett

            I would like to see LWRC IAR lower with a MCR belt fed upper and and a higher cut mag well. However, From what I here the receivers crap out on MCR’s fairly quick.

          • Machinegunnertim

            Hmmm, haven’t heard that. If the SHRIKE concept could be perfected and affordable it would be the best of both worlds.

        • Guy Slack

          yeah, the 60 rounders from Surefire seem like a natural fit.

          • int19h

            Given how unreliable they are, I doubt they would be adopted.

            It would be interesting to see if Magpul can hook them up on D60, now that they have already adopted PMAG.

        • n0truscotsman

          They might and it would be the wisest thing they could do, IMO. You cover all of your trigger puller carbines in one swoop, both Army and Marines.

          There was discussion on the 82nd ABN SAMG facebook page about the matter.

  • Jared Vynn

    Gonna need a lot of popcorn for when Trump (or his admin) gets wind of this.

    • Wang Chung Tonight

      Hey there sparkle motion! Do you understand who the Secretary of Destruction is? It would behoove you to click that important piece of magic into your brain housing group.

      • Jared Vynn

        I foresee the ol’ f35 treatment in price dropping at the least.

        • Bimberle

          Y’all realise HK just spent 30 mil on expanding their GA factory? There you go.

      • Joshua

        And neither like imports.

        Imagine having to rely on Germany for all your spare parts for every weapon in inventory.

        • KestrelBike

          Would it be like having to rely on China for many of the most important chips in your most sensitive technological assets?

          • valorius

            The US is talking about restarting rare earth mineral mining and production so we don’t have to rely on China any more. Only reason it was cut was to appease the tree huggers.

          • KestrelBike

            F’in tree huggers are so often more detrimental to the environment than anyone else. Gorramn hippies…

          • roguetechie

            Thank God we’re doing so too!!!

            We still need more steel production …

            Maybe some small arms procurement guys that aren’t in love with “lightweighting” 50-100 year old designs!!!

  • Eric H

    A few easy fixes I’ve seen thrown around (free-floating handguards/rail systems, different triggers, better barrels) to get the USMC’s M4s to perform close to the M27 would be cheaper than switching everyone to the M27.

    • LCON

      The Army offered to let the Marines in on the ( Now Canceled) M4A1+ PIP when it was launched, It offered some of the same changes free floated barrel in a new rail system, the M4A1 barrel ( heavier profile than the USMC M4 barrel) M4A1 H buffer. Tan finish, low profile gas block. The Marines did not seem interested.

      • Eric H

        When was that exactly? I sort of remember it happening under Amos or Dunford. It appears that Neller is more open to suggestions/fixes than his predecessors.

        • LCON

          the program was only active for about a year from 2015 to 2016

      • Anonymoose

        I thought the Army project was keeping the standard A-frame front sight and going to use the RIS2 FSP handguards, while the Marines were talking about going with a free-floated handguard with lo-pro gas block?

        • LCON

          No one of the M4A1+ demands was an extended rail so Chris Costa Fan club shooters could C Clamp to their heart’s content.

          • Anonymoose

            I’m not sure you can or should C-clamp with the FSP handguards…You might burn yourself on the FSP. And if you’re going to free-float it, you may as well go long. I guess they could have gone with something like the Omega rail. I’m not sure if KAC still makes their old-style free-floating RAS like they used on the USMC SAM-Rs and some SPRs, and I’m not sure the lower rail is removable to work with the M203. Most other “milspec” free-float rails are either marketing hype, heavy af, or extends over a carbine-length gas block. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/935e82eae6087705929767cf5820cd3284bda5ddf4a377ba0380b61199f8b196.jpg

          • LCON

            guess we lost something in translation The M4A1+ was to loose the FSP for extended rails and a rail mounted front sight.

          • Joshua

            Honestly for a general purpose issued rifle, the guys who will mostly be in for 4 year and be out don’t need that.

            Give them a DD Omega rail. Problem solved and it’s cheaper than the RAS.

            AFSOC has been using the DD Omega for a while now.

        • roguetechie

          Y’all are gonna make fun of me but I LOVE both the look and functionality the standard fixed triangular front sight post!!

          On my trailer park mark 12 and a couple others I actually sprung for the fantastically expensive and beefy ARMS folding version of the standard front sight tower…

          Yeah it was only like $65 less than several decent bargain red dots but DAMNIT IT’S JUST SO SEXY

          • n0truscotsman

            Nothing wrong with the old school front sight. It works. Most of the time, i dont even bother replacing it on builds.

            On a couple of low profile builds with free float tubes, I cut the “tower” itself off, reblued the bare metal, and had a low profile gas block. No need to reinvent the wheel.

          • Joshua

            Honestly if you are going with a FF rail mounted iron sight you may as well not even add it.

            It won’t hold zero and it will see shifts in POA/POI with any pressure put on the rail that won’t line up with the barrel.

          • n0truscotsman

            Yeah thats very true. I like the availability of BUIS available now.

  • Dave

    Funny how H&K just unveiled the HK433 as a cheaper option to those seeking 416’s…..

    • Guy Slack

      cheaper? doubtful.

      • Kivaari

        Less costly.

      • Mike

        Yes cheaper. That’s kinda the whole idea behind the gun, seeing as how the German .gov thinks the 416 would be too expensive to buy as a replacement for the G36.
        So HK build a new gun. Which is cheaper.

        • Kivaari

          Cheaper and lower priced are not the same. Are you saying it will cost less and be cheaply made?

      • int19h

        Yes, it is cheaper, because the receiver is extruded, not milled.

    • TW

      the US won’t adapt something not based off the M16 system.

  • Audie Bakerson

    I’m pretty sure the USMC’s budget would be better spent replacing their awful DMR with something else than a marginally better infantry rifle.

  • n0truscotsman

    This would be an awful idea

  • BrandonAKsALot

    Heavy barrel + piston retro fit. Boom. Where’s my millions?

    I find it interesting that this is a problem the Soviets solved so long ago with the RPK and yet we’re just now looking into just taking your standard infantry rifle and converting it into a more LMG configuration. Now the RPK may not have been perfect, but they work for laying down supressive fire.

    • roguetechie

      Why does everyone insist on a damn piston?

      Because my DIY AR74, AR47, & AR15 BUMPSAW’s all work bloody damn excellent sans piston!

      Yes, I have an AR bumpsaw 5.45, 5.56, & 7.62×39… Yes they all use the magazines god Mikhail Kalashnikov and NATO intended them to… Sorta, since I stock 47 74 & STANAG PMAG’s pretty much exclusively anymore… (No witness window and WITH the caps to prevent feed lip distention)

      Things I also don’t have to use:
      1. Lightweight uber space monkey BCG’s… M16 Full auto bcg is fine unless the ones with the nifty doodle coatings are on sale!

      2. Fancy trigger packs… Well kinda…

      3. $197+ commercial bump fire stocks… I got a dremel, poor depth perception, and absolutely no fear!

      • BrandonAKsALot

        They are already using a gas piston operation. I would say maybe continuous fire might legit be the one instance pistons actually have a leg up. They won’t rupture like a gas tube.

        • roguetechie

          Well since my 3 favorite belt feds are ALL long stroke piston rotating bolt affairs….

          I’d still have to say, meh … You can’t replace any part of a long or short stroke piston assembly for the ALMOST $3 A new gas tube costs!

          • iksnilol

            I’d be more worried about cook-off.

        • Dude

          Ive seen barrels blast before the gastube does…

        • Joshua

          All you need to do is double the thickness of the gas tube.

  • Bill

    What does “pure-fleet” mean? I can guess it means everyone gets one, but my guesses are usually wrong

    • Joshua

      That’s right.

    • Right, it means using only M27s as individual weapons.

    • Pete Sheppard

      It means some Power-Point Ranger is trying to stand out… :p

  • Ron

    A few weeks ago a Marine was killed at 29 Palms because of lack of knowledge on the SAW, CMC has stated he does not want SAWs as individual weapons and we are to de-issue them, but that creates the potential for a fire power deficient in many units

    • Porty1119

      Sounds like a training failure, not an equipment problem.

      • Ron

        equipping is tied to training, and by adding two significantly different/ separate pieces of equipment you complicate the training issue.

        The issue the Senior Marines have is the SAW is an LMG, other MGs are normally used by Machine gunner MOS Marines, but in the case of the SAW we give it out like a rifle without a the requisite training, compounding this is that even if we did the training, what happens when the trained guy has to give up the gun because of wounds, etc and now the primary casualty producing weapon is turned over to an untrained/less trained shooter.

        • iksnilol

          LMGs aren’t primary casualty producers. They’re just for supppressive fire.

          • Ron

            in a fire team, your automatic rifle is your primary casualty producing weapon. That has been taught in the Marine Corps for several generations.

          • valorius

            In the Army the trained us to keep our head down while the Arty and Air do the work. 😉

          • Ron

            The Marine Corps is probably the best combined arms force in world because of its owning its own air and all of our officers attend TBS prior to their MOS school. We regularly training for all arms intergration where IDF, air and maneuver coordinate into packages.

          • valorius

            But your troops can’t handle a SAW?

          • Ron

            The reason the Marine Corps originally adopted the M249 was they wanted to adopted an IAR but at the time the Army was fielding an LMG for use in their squads. At the time the Marine Corps could not afford the development of a separate IAR so it adopted the M240. Ever since than despite multiple PIPs the Marine Corps has never really been happy with the SAW because it was a LMG pressed into a role it was not well suited for because of weight and adding a DODIC in the fire team.

            CMC during development put forward 9 concerns with fielding it, most apropos was “How do the Marines feel about it? And is this going to change the whole dynamic?” Anecdotally, Marines are in three distinct groups on their opinion about the IAR vs. the M249. These first two groups are separated by their recent employment experiences. The first group who love the M249 are those who employed one of the 10,000 existing M249’s from a non-mobile defensive position, or from the back of one of the vehicle variant options currently available. Success was measured by “shooting towards the enemy in a suppressive manner” and by “surviving the incident”. Success was not measured by “closing with and destroying”, or by “verifying the wounding or lethal effects of the engagement”.

            The second group of Marines comes from our infantry units. These are those rare squad members who have actually had to “fire and move” towards a defended position while armed with the M249. While expected to be performed regularly, this type of action has become very rare in the during the previous 7 years of war at that point in the IARs’ development and it is hard to find anyone who has actually performed as expected. When these individuals are found, they detest the heavy, cumbersome 249 for its inability to remain in the fight during the actual assault.

            The third non-combat group exists as well. This third group are those who actually conducted one of the experiments by MCOTEA while at 29 Palms in Nov-Dec 2009 and are very similar to the second group listed above. Having actually been forced to assault, been forced to measure results beyond the un-measurable psychological effects; this group preferred the IAR over the M249.

          • Joshua

            So what happens when you give up all your saws and come across a force like Russia that mixes AKs, PKPs and RPKs into their fire squad’s?

            I can see a use for a IAR in Afghanistan, but I have a feeling the Marine Corps will come to regret the decision if we ever face a modern force.

          • Bland Samurai

            We always trained to fight the last war fought. In the ’80s I was getting ready to take back the ‘Nam.

          • Kivaari

            In the NG 82-83 we were fighting desert warfare at the Yakima Firing Center.

          • chris

            they would probably try to pin them with m240s while maneuvering in with there light infantry squads

          • valorius

            As far as belt fed weapons go the M249 is a super compact featherweight. I think the main problem with the SAW nowadays is that they’re just old and shot out. When i was a young infantryman during the tail end of the Cold war they worked sensationally well and were an enormous upgrade over the M-60.

            From a purely convenience and mobility standpoint obviously any carbine is better than a belt fed MG. However, if the USMC finds itself shooting at hordes of Chinese it is absolutely going to regret it’s choice to replace the bulk of it’s squads firepower with a 30rd carbine.

            In the event of a major war, the decision to replace the SAW with the M27 would go down as one of the absolutely most stupid decisions in the history of the US military.

          • 22lb M249 SAW

            I present to you, the most stupid statement this day : “featherweight”

          • Uniform223

            Well by no means light when compared to an M16 or M4, compared to a M240B or G, it might as well be. Though you are right. Featherweight is a stretch.

          • Ron

            surprisingly both Marines and Army armed with 8 shot repeaters and 20 automatic rifles did not that much problem dealing with them.

          • valorius

            Probably because the Chinese lacked armor, air, or good artillery….which they will not lack now.

          • Ron

            The Chinese actually had very good artillery as was seen by the increasing field fortifications at the latter stages of the Korean War to protect against it effects

            However none of those are germane to the topic of why were US forces (who for most part fought as light infantry) able to stop the “wave attacks” of Chinese hordes with the tool of the day

            I would suggest you read both editions of “on infantry” it dispells much of popular belief about the Korean War and how it was fought

          • valorius

            Well initially we didn’t stop the wave attacks at all, we got over-run and pushed almost entirely out of the country.

            When it became a static war we stopped the wave attacks with M1919 machine guns as well as other support weapons.

            I suggest you stop suggesting what i do.

          • Ron

            Well if you actual read those books they do numerous detailed analysis of Chinese operations and “human wave” attack was more myth than reality. The Chinese were good actual very good at infilatration attacks and setting ambushes/road blocks on routes of withdrawal prior to an infiltration attack to press the UN forces back to into the ambush. The Marine forces on the west side of the Chosin were also never over run but instead fought though and crushed numerous blocking efforts on their move back to sea. In its wake the 1st Marine division left 8 broken Chinese divisions

          • valorius

            It’s not even a matter of human wave attacks so much as it is just a matter of being wildly outnumbered.

            Multiple US units in the vicinity of the Yalu river were overrun on the way back south.

            US Army official history- The Chinese Intervention:

            “They came out of the hills near Unsan, North Korea, blowing
            bugles in the dying light of day on 1 November 1950, throwing grenades and firing
            their “burp” guns at the surprised American soldiers of the 8th Cavalry
            Regiment, 1st Cavalry Division. Those who survived the initial assaults reported
            how shaken the spectacle of massed Chinese infantry had left them. Thousands
            of Chinese had attacked from the north, northwest, and west against scattered
            U.S. and South Korean (Republic of Korea or ROK) units moving deep into North
            Korea. The Chinese seemed to come out of nowhere as they swarmed around the
            flanks and over the defensive positions of the surprised United Nations (UN)
            troops.”

            If i’m facing that kind of attack i want a belt fed SAW, not a carbine with 30rd mags.

          • Ron

            what testing and evaluation has shown is the SAW is much better at producing psychological effects but inferior at hitting targets. In a circumstance were you are dealing forces such as the PLAN it better to hit more people instead of just shooting more.

          • valorius

            A SAW is far superior at suppressive fire. Keeping the bad guy’s heads down while your forces maneuver is a good thing.

            The M27 is more akin to an SDM weapon than a machine gun/auto rifle. It simply lacks the capacity. A good quality drum mag would go a long way toward fixing it’s issues, though it will never have the beaten zone of a true support weapon.

          • Ron

            SAWs don’t produce beaten zone either because they are employed like very heavy Automatic Rifles and not machine guns

            The problem with suppressive effects there is ample examples of Marines and enemy personnel moving through seemingly impossible volumes of fire. After actions reports demonstrate that often these personnel did not know they were being shot at. The conditions of auditory exclusion and singular focus mean that it is possible for targets to ignore or block out near misses whenbeing engaged by non-exploding-fire.

          • valorius

            Maybe in the Marines they are/were.

            Very brave or experienced soldiers may ignore suppressive fire, most will not. And suppressive fire does cause casualties when people decide, “Hey, i can ignore this.”

          • Ron

            Honest question have you been under fire much?

          • valorius

            I have been shot at. Have you?

          • Ron

            Yet everyone returns it.

          • valorius

            No, everyone does not return it. A lot of combat soldiers never fire their weapon at all. For most nations it is typically a very small % of soldiers that do the actual fighting, even in front line combat units.

            Also- the US has a long history of attacking countries with poorly trained 3rd world soldiers who are particularly prone to not return fire when suppressed.

            The concept the M27 is based on is uniquely stupid. It is a throw back to pre WWI US individual marksmanship theory.

          • Ron

            Well you have the Marines, the Brits and Russians (and I have actually seen the correspondents from the US Army saying they were closely following the M27/IAR, to see if they follow suite with an IAR like weapon)

          • valorius

            The entire Assault rifle concept is based on the concept of suppressive fire and maneuver. A concept embraced by literally every military on earth.

            It is my belief that the entire M27 “replaces the SAW” is a bait and switch because the USMC really wants to replace the M4.

            It’s an age old military trick to say “we need this to do this” when in all actuality the given weapon is wanted for something entirely different.

          • Machinegunnertim

            I can attest that everything Ron has stated is correct. And the SAW is a heavy pig for the round that it fires. It’s more complex than the M240 and It’s also nowhere near as reliable as the M16 and M4 that it runs along side with.

            The SAW gunners often end up carrying the gun, all their ammo and the spare barrel. So the smaller or skinnier guys have a hard time lugging around all that weight and are very miserable.

            Few guys carry and train with the SAW long enough to become really proficient with it as well. There are a few factors that cause that and it’s a shame. If there were tryouts for SAW gunners and the ones that pass carried the SAW until their rank or position changed SAW’s effectiveness would increase exponentially!

          • Clumsy M249

            Yes, and have fun reloading it moving…

          • valorius

            When i first got into the infantry our machinegunners had to hump around M60s, which if memory servers are almost 24lbs unloaded. The extra barrel is also heavy as heck because it’s got a bipod and sight on it. I volunteered as an M60 machinegunner in a few field problems…The SAW was an absolute dream when we got them.

            I don’t think you’d want the SAW very much lighter than it is or recoil/controllability would start to become a problem. As i said before when they were new they were extremely reliable.

            If the USMC is serious about using the M27 as a SAW they need to issue some high cap drum magazines for them. Because issuing 22x 30rd magazines is just ridiculous. Even if it had adequate capacity the gun is a precision weapon, so i cannot imagine it has anything remotely resembling an adequate beaten zone.

          • int19h

            M249 weighs as much as PKM unloaded, and PKM fires a full-size cartridge. So M249 is lightweight compared to M60, sure – but overall it’s hardly featherweight.

            And I haven’t heard of anyone complaining about PKM being too hard to control because of its light weight. Given the significantly higher recoil of 7.62x54R compared to 5.56, it would seem to indicate that an LMG chambered in the latter could be a lot lighter without losing controllability.

          • iksnilol

            Yup, ridicilous. The KAC Stoner has existed for plenty of years in one form or another. Should’a been adopted over the SAW:

            Weighs like 4.5 kg (10 pounds) unloaded.

          • Uniform223

            I think this is their latest iteration of.

            This is their earlier stuff.

          • valorius

            I can only go by what i’ve actually carried or used in the field. Compared to the M60 and especially the M240, the SAW is a featherweight.

            I’m not saying it couldn’t be lighter, but you wouldn’t want to go too much lighter.

          • Machinegunnertim

            Which generation of M60? I remember looking at the numbers long ago and noting that the weight of the loaded SAW was reaching close to the weight of the M60e3. In my opinion a 5.56 gun should be far lighter than a 7.62 Nato one. Also there are several other ways to mitigate recoil other than just weight.

            I always thought that putting a bipod on each barrel was a really stupid idea.

            I also agree that a drum or something will be needed to effectively deploy the IAR. I hope the Marines procure something soon.

          • valorius

            Original models. I dont think US infantry forces ever fielded the upgraded versions, but i’m not entirely sure what happened after i ETS’d. The M60E3 was a USN program.

          • Joe

            Why would anyone buy a machine gun that utilizes recievers designed to be thrown away after 15,000 rounds, but then never actually do that and instead either buy new parts for a worn out trunnion/reciever or simply buy brand new guns? It’s utter madness! No one except the United States Army would accept and acquire a weapons system that dictated you to do this. Imagine a vehicle engine that was only designed to withstand the rigors of 15,000 miles before the entire engine needed to be replaced.

          • valorius

            Actually lots of nations have adopted the SAW.

          • valorius

            I don’t mean to insult anyone, but i’d take a USAF pilot in an A10 for close support over any other asset in the history of aerial warfare.

          • Ron

            Are you a JTAC? How much experience do you have control all three types of CAS?

          • valorius

            Im former board admin of Warthog Terroritory. I’ve toured several major A-10
            facilities and am personal friends with several A-10 pilots, A-FACs and
            G-FACs. I’m also ex infantry.

            You?

          • Ron

            I am a 8002 JTAC and have conducted live controls in combat additinally I was an assist-fires for an RCT in Iraq and fires for a MEU in AFG. The A10 is better at type 1 CAS than anything the air force has except AC130s but not really exceptional at types 2 (predominate type of CAS in the GWOT) or type 3. The problem 1 CAS it won’t happen in MCO and in COIN/LIC it has a significant higher chance of a blue on blue occurring.

            The best thing about it is not the platform but the culture of those who fly it; but their culture is the same as you find in the Army Attack Aviation community and Marine Aviation

          • clampdown

            Too bad their F-18s are falling apart. Not to worry, their super complicated VTOL F-35B is looking to actually be the best of the three models, as it should be, since their VTOL requirement made the A and C models much bigger and heavier than they needed. I just don’t see how they, like the AF, expect it to replace the ’18 and Harrier for Close Air Support. They should’ve gotten the AF’s unwanted A-10s and converted them into it’s VTOL variant, the Cobra Rattler… https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b4df6afd4928bb479e44dcfd8ce5bf2e49f77e736624049d69e774daf3db7dd2.jpg

          • I don’t get the “F-35B made the A and C much bigger than they needed to be”. Doesn’t look like it. The lift fan adds basically zero width and length, and gets replaced by a fuel tank in the other variants.

    • Joshua

      What killed him?

      Btw are you R0N? From that one site?

      • I haven’t yet seen any details. Perhaps something like this:

        • n0truscotsman

          oh my…

        • Uniform223

          To me it looked like a run away. He should have stayed with it and let it run out. Why he lets it go is beyond me. Also to me it looked like he didn’t have a good stance and grip on the weapon. This is all based on personal experience, observation, and conjecture on my part.

          • Gary Kirk

            The trigger group came out of the weapon.. You can see it still in his hand as the rifle falls.. The thing freaking fell apart!!

          • Uniform223

            Oh sh*t I didn’t see that! Sorry I’m on my phone?

          • Gary Kirk

            Definitely an oh S#!+ moment.. Sir, gonna need a new weapon, and skivvies..

        • valorius

          I saw a private do that with an M60 once. It went run away. Instead of twisting the belt he just panicked and let it go.

          • iksnilol

            Dude, look at his hand holding the pistol grip. Damn contraption fell apart in his hands.

          • valorius

            I know i saw that, i’m just relating a personal story. That video is proof as to why you shouldnt hold a SAW by the bipod.

          • iksnilol

            To me it is proof to not hold a SAW at all.

          • valorius

            You’d love an M60 then. The same failure is possible on that weapon as well.

          • iksnilol

            I got a roll of duct tape and a disdain for life that’s bordering on being worrisome.

          • valorius

            LMFAO

        • valorius

          That’s a pretty good illustration as to why you shoudn’t hold a SAW by the bipod.

      • Ron

        Lack of knowledge on the usage of an open bolt weapon caused an ND. The Marine Corps gunners have long held, one of biggest problem with the SAW is that there is not enough training time on them and the significant difference between them and the M16 FOW means an M16 based weapon is better for everything except making noise.

        A long time ago, but got tired of having to re-explain things

        • Joshua

          Btw, you should come back. We miss you.

    • That appears to be correct, yes.

    • Guy Slack

      So, what happened? How does one die with a SAW without pointing the barrel in a direction it shouldn’t be pointed?

  • Uniform223

    http://img.memecdn.com/better-get-ready_fb_1990233.jpg

    I’ll check in on this tomorrow and see how many comments there are. At this moment (2-10-2017, 17:26 Pacific Standard Time) there are 17 comments…

    • Joshua

      it’s 1:08 am (GMT+5) and we’re at 41

      It’s gonna be biblical

  • GD Ajax

    Heckler and Koch could make an IAR version of the HK 433 if the USMC asked them too.

    • FactChecker90803

      I think with the new administration, I doubt foreign companies will be getting any major contracts, and as for the HK 433, it’s a cheaper updated HK G36 with major influence from the ACR and MSBS.

      And with all the crap the DoD, has taking for there recent sidearm contest, where all domestic manufacturers were excluded, I think that it’s going to be a very hard bill to swallow by many appropriation committees if another foreign company was favored over all the Domestic companies offering similar products.

      So I see LWRC having a good shot at it, from what many have said, there M6A4 performed comparable if not better then the IAR M27, but the weight and reputation ( likely bribes) of HK won the day. And maybe some others such as the Adcor A-556, Barrett REC7 and the Colt APC.

      • Joshua

        The XM17 is a 100% USA designed, and manufactured handgun

        • FactChecker90803

          I know that, not many know that SIG SAUER, is an American company that is separate from Swissarms, the new name for the Former SIG GmbH.

          But alot of senators and congressmen don’t, and many took offence that Smith & Wesson, was eliminated by the selection board for unstated reasons.

          As to the XM17/320, great gun, my son ( who is a Marine Aviator, Osprey Pilot ) and I checked it out at the shot show. Honestly the selection board picked the best gun Per.. it will go a long way to correct the problems with various sidearm issues in the US forces, with some still having the 1911, Coast Guard with SIG P229, US Army MP’S & CID with the SIG P228, special forces with unit purchased Glock or HK’S and the general issue M9.

          • chris

            Isn’t the SIG Sauer Inc just the importer/ us manufacturer for SIG Sauer GmbH & Co. KG

          • FactChecker90803

            Your thinking of the old SIG America, but the new SIG SAUER America, Is a full line American manufacturer that engineers and builds the 224, 227, 229, 238, 938, 239, 250, 290, 320 and GSR line of handguns and a line of Tactical Rifles the SIG 556, SIG 762, MPX and MCX.

            SSA is the import agent for the SIG 210 ( Bently Of Handguns ), 220, 225, 226 & 228 line of handguns plus other brands with in Swissarms.

    • LCON

      M27 is not being replaced and I doubt M4 is being ditched in the USMC.

    • roguetechie

      Why in the name of God would we do that?

      Seriously do you know even the first thing about American military procurements history?

      • GD Ajax

        I do. It’s run by idiots in PEO who think they know better than everyone else.

  • Joseph Goins

    The one main upside to this is that the guns would finally stop being bastardized for a few years. That is one reason why the M16 and M4 families had reliability issues.

    • Joshua

      Don’t fret. Eventually they would start contracting out bolts, barrels and every other part to SJW companies that employ 20 people using crap CNC machines.

  • Henry Reed

    Nathaniel, do you think a future IAR platform could be a DI gun? Like a midlength/riflelength AR with an ultra-heavy barrel and reliable drum mags? Less moving parts is always better.

    • CommonSense23

      What is even the point of a IAR these days.

      • mcjagermech

        cuz pistons r bettr n shiet

      • Major Tom

        That’s the question. RPK-style weapons are more or less obsolete.

    • You’d need a heavy gas tube and maybe a beefed up bolt stem, but sure, why not?

      • chris

        and with a high sustained rate of fire you somehow have to deal with DIs higher residue and heat transfer. That means expansive materials and very specific fitting of the parts.

        • I don’t really buy that line, honestly.

          • chris

            Time for a new article. Get a 416 try it out and prove me wrong. Or don’t but i would be really interested in seeing the results.

          • Joshua

            The chamber is what matters, there is no heat difference in the chamber area of the the two operating systems.

      • roguetechie

        So…. A diemaco/colt Canada/Colt LMG basically… Like a couple countries actually use already.

        That’s if you don’t get smart and fancy to make it even better.

    • Anonymoose

      Colt did that decades ago. A few Euro countries bought them and Canada may have tested them.

  • Nomar Abdiel Vazquez Vazquez

    could this mean that in the next decade the combat units of the DOD will be equiped with variants of the HK416 and HK417?

    • LCON

      The Army will, The M110A1 is a derivative of the Hk417’s civilian version. Socom units still use them for CQB. and Marines do for IAR but there is little need for more than that.

      • FactChecker90803

        Knight did offer a compact version of there M110, with Magpul adjustable stock and full rails. But the Army wanted a Sexy New German model, and went for the G28, I wonder it its all paid for already, you know before Mad Dog and The President see the Price Tag of $12,000 per rifle.

        • some other joe

          12.2k per weapon system. Sights, suppressor, mags, drag bags and pouches, spare parts, armorer training, etc. And it’s a sniper system, not a service rifle.
          Compare this to the M110 SASS(ystem) at 11.8k.

          • Joshua

            Plus the Army is only purchasing 2,600 M110A1s.

            It’s a small accomplishment vs over 1,000,000 DI systems in service with just the US, not counting Canada.

          • LCON

            the M110 is not leaving the inventory for a while and the M110A1 is still classed as a “Sniper rifle”, so small numbers are the norm.

          • Joshua

            Yeah, plus no one in SOCOM wants the M110A1. Even JSOC doesn’t want it.

            They all will continue using the M110K1, while the Army chose to get the H&k…way to go Army.

            Although I don’t see the internet collective saying, but Delta uses the M110K1!!!! They Army needs it now.

  • NewMan

    They need to suck it up and buy more HK M27. No DI gun can come remotely close to matching the performance of the M27. Going back inferior system only going hinder them and cost them far more in the long run.

    As said before, don’t be stupid and cut corners. Buy more M27 and move on with life.

    • CommonSense23

      Yes a system that has fewer parts breakage is inferior.

      • NewMan

        Since the M27 has much less parts breakage it is indeed superior.

        DI is an obsolete that is fading away. Serious militaries are moving away from it.

        • CommonSense23

          Yeah, no it doesn’t. You have never actually dealt with 416s have you.

        • FactChecker90803

          Have you ever fired and or cleaned an HK 416 or M27, let me entertain you, it has a short stroke tapped Gas piston that pushes an operating rod, that pushes on the bolt carrier. That’s what 3 times the moving parts of a gas impingement M4, also I guess you have not heard of the carrier tilt, that is synonymous with push rod rifles, guess I’ll stick to my obsolete Gas impingement but very accurate ARs.

          • iksnilol

            Eh, carrier lift is a non issue in 416. It’s only an issue in guns retrofitted with a piston (drop in pistons for DI ARs).

          • Joshua

            The 416 still chews up buffer tubes at a faster rate than DI guns do.

          • iksnilol

            How fast does a buffer tube wear out in general ?

          • roguetechie

            Basically never unless it’s a 416 or cheap drop in kit piston gun…

          • Joshua

            on a DI gun? Never.

            On a 416, around 50,000 rounds.

            The 416 overall has a lower receiver life than the M4.

          • CommonSense23

            Early 416s had serious carrier tilt issues. The early ones especially traded off long term reliability for short term reliability.

          • NewMan

            Carrier tilt was never an issue to begin with. Rumor created by DI fanboy. Stop making stuff up.

          • roguetechie

            Seriously?

            So just out of curiosity how many different modern military rifles have you got to test fire even in semiautomatic?

            How many do you OWN?

            How many have you built from parts you bought?

            How many did you machine, bend, weld, phosphate, and or parkerize etc the receivers for?

            How many “nonstandard” build projects have you done where you had to fabricate your own or heavily alter a good Portion of the parts for?

            How many rounds did you put downrange last year out of your own personal weapons from the questions above?

            I can guarantee that you’re just making yourself look like an incredibly stupid cowwadoody cowboy every time you speak

        • Porty1119

          Oh boy, I love alternative facts too!!

    • Uniform223

      You must be a “new man” because you seem very new to the whole firearms thing. You seem to have little to no knowledge (either researched or personal experience) of these firearms. Your comment is incredibly ignorant and down right WRONG.

    • Can’t afford it. Do not pass GO, do not collect $200.

  • Dr. Longfellow Buchenrad

    This is an honest question; not a sarcastic comment.

    What advantage does the M27 have over a M4 or M16 such that they would want to upgrade?

    • NewMan

      Significant more reliability in harsh environments, parts lifespan, superior cook off rate, superior with suppressor, need significantly less lube etc…Etc ..

      DI M4 is going the way of the dodo

      • n0truscotsman

        Not remotely.

        The 416 is no more mechanically reliable and the only part that has a longer life than the M4 is the barrel. I see similar claims like the ones you make, yet they’re always absent of evidence. That would almost lead me to conclude they’re untrue.

        The M4 is one of the most common fighting rifles in military service around the world. It will be the last service rifle in US Military service.

        • LCON

          I am not sure I would put it that way eventually there will be a replacement just not in the Foreseeable.

          Otherwise though accurate.
          The only time When piston guns start looking better is when you start playing with the shorter Barrel gas system length or suppressors.
          That was was the Reason Socom looked into Scar L and Hk416 development. When They first made the M4A1’s they had a light barrel and conventional A2 buffer no different from a M16A2 or the then Army M4 carbine only with a full auto trigger pack. Socom used those rifles hard and the shorter gas/barrels, light A2 buffers gave it a higher rate of fire combined with rapid cycling cooked the barrels, and beat the bolts to death. When the Army decided to go for full auto M4A1’s they changed the buffers and barrels making them both heavier this reduced the rate of fire and increased cooling fixing the issues of the M4A1 and eliminating the justification for the Scar L in US service.

          When you do see HK416’s today in US Service other than the Marines M27 they are usually short barreled about 10.5″ and suppressed as both over gas the rifle shoot the rate of fire up. the Reason the M4 and M4A1 have a 14.5 inch barrel is two fold first it’s about the shortest you can still mount a bayonet for second and more importantly you have a little bit of extra time to get the pressures more under control for cycling. But that length is not always wanted especially if you are needing a suppressor. additionally adding a suppressor ups the gas pressures in the rifle. The piston system can stand in and offer a break between the gas and the bolt slowing the rate of fire and extending the life of the rifle.

          • Bland Samurai

            *carbine buffer. The A2 buffer is just a tad too big.

          • CommonSense23

            The MK18 is more mechanically reliable than the 416. 10th group found that out over a decade ago.

          • LCON

            remember the issues Socom had were related to the increased rate of fire from light buffers. when they introduced the H buffer it fixed itself. but if you have a short barrel the pressure goes up. on it’s own it’s not an issue but then cap it with a can which dramatically increases the gas pressures. For Socom units that do Raids in Close Quarters they want small packaged suppressed.
            On it’s own the Mk18 is fine but the suppressor is begging for issues.

          • CommonSense23

            I was issued a MK18MOD1 for almost 6 years and always ran it suppressed. Zero issues. The early CQBRs were the ones that had issues running suppressed. The vast majority of guys I knew who went from the MK18MOD1s to 416s want their MK18S back but don’t have a choice.
            All of Socom but JSOC runs the MK18s and they do them suppressed. The MK18S have no issue being suppressed.

      • Joshua

        Must be why JSOC still runs 14.5″ Block II M4A1s.

    • S-1-F trigger group and a better barrel, primarily. Also the rail mount is better.

      • Malthrak

        So what’s it got over an M4A1 with S1F FCG, heavier barrel (over normal M4), and top+quad rails for a fraction of the price, aside from 2″ of barrel length?

        XD

  • Ax

    What is the capability that the M27 has that the m4 and m16 lacks?

    • Tom

      Its more suited to sustained fire.

      • Uniform223

        With a 30rnd mag? Riiight…

        • Tom

          Its not [meant to be at least] about ammo capacity as much as not overheating as quickly as a regular M4/M16.

          • valorius

            Hence the quick change barrel. Oh, wait.

          • int19h

            Pecheneg doesn’t have a quick change barrel, but it’s clearly designed for sustained fire.

            It’s a scale, not a binary. Clearly, the heavier, thicker barrel of IAR would allow it to keep going for longer compared to M4/M16. Obviously nowhere near as long as a proper LMG, and obviously you really want a quick change barrel to push this even further. But that’s a different issue.

          • Uniform223

            This is from an early test with an M4A1 before the adoption of a heavy profile barrel…

            Here is another one done by a youtuber/blogger

            I’ve fired M16A2s and later the M4 (not the M4A1) in a rather rapid rate of fire (albeit not full auto as those do not have that feature). Does the weapon get hot? Yes but than again what weapon doesn’t? I have never had an M16 or the M4 get so hot to a point where I am unable to shoot it. The barrel still gets hot in the M27 and you’re just moving the heat from one part of the weapon to another. Unless you’re doing mag dump after mag dump after mag dump… it is damn near impossible to “overheat” your rifle/carbine.

          • Tom

            Which goes back to the point of if its worth it? The Marines or rather those in charge of procurement think it is. Though procurement decisions are not always based on what is needed or what is best.

      • valorius

        Based on what? HK sales pamphlets?

        • Tom

          A heavier barrel will allow it to fire more before it overheats. How much more [and if that increase is actually worth anything] is the real question.

          Fro, what I recall both the FN and Colt entries where better suited to sustained automatic fire where as the HK is just a heavy barreled rifle. Many speculated that this was a case of the Marines trying to adopt the HK 416 by the backdoor.

          Personally whilst I can see the utility of an automatic rifle I do not think it can eclipse a proper [belt fed] LMG even at section level. But then again its good to have options.

          • valorius

            The M27 would be a whole lot more suitable if it was issued with something like a Beta C mag.

      • Joshua

        And there were entrants from Colt that did that.

    • Uniform223

      It’s piston driven and runs cleaner… hurr durr durr

    • S-1-F FCG and a better barrel.

      • Joshua

        Which the M4A1 has.

  • I just hope that after they replace all the M4’s with M27’s, they will embrace the Ultimax 100’s for the IAR/SAW role. Ultra low recoil / accurate full auto fire, and 14lbs when loaded with a 100rd drum.

    6x100rd drums makes a lot more sense then issuing 20x30rd AR magazines for the M27, to say nothing of the Utlixax’s far superior Full Auto ability.

    • roguetechie

      Only if we get the original 100 round drum TDP….

  • HK WHY

    I think IAR concept if perfect for the USMC,marksman precision with SAW capability.
    But……HK? Really?, HK have high price and ussually less interoperability with non HK accesories.

    • valorius

      The IAR does not have SAW capability, that is a flat out distortion of this weapons capabilities.

      Based on this move i rather suspect it was the USMCs intent to replace the M4 with the M27 all along.

  • Petto

    Marines don’t even need whole complete Hk416s masked as IAR

    If they really want those piston driven ARs , then just buy some good uppers with Piston driven gas block and there you go – no need to waste money on HK branded parts

  • thedarkknightreturns

    One of the most common problems that I have seen with any of the 416 variants is the design runs too high a cyclic rate of fire, and bolt over base failures happen. A couple neighboring agencies to mine, had procured some 416s for their SWAT guys. The bolt over base malfunctions happened with annoying regularity, with a variety of different magazines in all of the rifles. The problem only became worse when suppressors were utilized, because of an additional boost in the cyclic rate. Another thing we noticed is how damn violent the guns run, if you ran one full auto through a couple of mags anything on the rifle not held down with copious amounts of loctite wanted to shake loose. None of us were impressed with them, particularly for what HK charges for the things. The 416 is a heavier gun, with proprietary parts, that offered no real advantage to us over the huge market of short CQB carbines to choose from. I’ve never been an op-rod AR fan, and after what I saw with these guns, it just made me feel even more comfortable in my loyalty to the plain old DI setup.

    • Uniform223

      Nien!!! The HK416 is perfect!

      • Nein

        *Nein

        • Uniform223

          Thanks! I’ll correct ☺

          • NEIN!

            NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN!

          • Kurt Akemann

            YES YES YES YES! 😀

    • Joshua

      The M27 had to have a special pressure relief hole drilled into the gas block due to cyclic rate.

      Even then it still pushes 900RPM in good conditions. Higher in hot climates.

    • NewMan

      The A5 variant has an adjustable gas regulator for suppressor use. None issue. Stop making things up.

      • int19h

        Does IAR have it, though?

    • Machinegunnertim

      That’s odd, bolt over base malfunctions are usually due to weak or cheap magazine springs. Especially with .300 blk. Something doesn’t seem right here, I mean the SEALS sure wouldn’t be using a carbine that is plagued with the problems you speak of.

      I do agree that the weight, cost, and amount of proprietary parts is a real pain in the ass.

      • Joshua

        The HK416 runs at ridiculous fast cyclic rates.

        The M27 had to have a modified gas block to reduce the cyclic rate to 900RPM when using M855 in hot climates.

    • Ed

      You need to have the correct buffer and springs. You cannot just put a 416 upper on an AR and expect it to run. If the gun was nearly as problematic as its detractors say, it would not have been adopted by America’s most elite unit and kept in service. I have seen multiple LWRCs choke in classes.

      • iksnilol

        Wouldn’t have been adopted by the Norwegians as well.

  • Umberto

    what kind of prices are we talking about for moving the entire corps (as you said, 40-50.000+all ancillaries) to the IAR?

    • Joshua

      Well the M27 runs right at $3000 for the rifle and magazine. No optics.

  • Pete Sheppard

    ‘Pure-fleet’…Some pogue trying to make a splash on Power Point??

  • The_Champ

    Does anyone else ever wonder how much of this is actually finding the best tool for the job, and how is just bureaucracy doing what it does best? Shuffling things around, all be it at a snails pace, change for the sake of change and because someone’s job depends on being the bright idea fairy?

    Before serving in the military I don’t think I was so naïve to believe that an army was immune to bureaucratic inefficiencies, but I assumed it was somewhat resistant to it. Little did I know how much it truly suffered.

    • valorius

      Yep.

    • Eric H

      Since the military is part of the government, it will never be immune from bureaucracy.

    • Malthrak

      Any large organization, public or private, will fall prey to bureaucratic inefficiencies, its just a natural issue with organizational size and the need to manage all those people and things. The US military is no different, and has been a shining example of bureaucracy run amok for decades, longer than most human lifespans in fact, and US small arms have always been something of a crazy field going back to the civial war.

  • valorius

    You don’t need to equip every REMF or non infantry combat Marine with one.

  • valorius

    Now all they need is new SAWs and they’ll be set…

    • History

      Funny that 3decades ago there was a weapon that both outperformed the SAW and M27.

      • roguetechie

        XM248… Which had a 7.62 NATO conversion kit and was in every single way vastly superior.

        • History

          And thats not even what im speaking of, the XM248 even tough beeing interesting is much more heavy and less handy than what i mean.

  • A Fascist Corgi

    So much for your past blog posts and comments defending DI AR-15s. Again and again we see that governments are willing to pay tons of money and load their soldiers up with heavier equipment in order to equip their soldiers with superior gear. And again and again we see firearm manufacturers choosing to go with piston-driven operating mechanisms over DI gas systems.

    • Joshua

      Well first of all, this is only to replace the remaining M249s in service…..Sooooooo.

  • chris

    Is there any known reason why the USMC dosen’t have any kinf of high capacity magazin or drum for the M27 by now? Not even some simple high cap mag like a PMAG 40.
    That just seems weird to me if it ist not just a backdoor for a knew standard rifle.

    • Chuck E

      When they were looking at 18 or 20″ rifles, it make sense that they were backdooring a “rifle.” Now? Yeah, still looks that way.

  • Chuck E

    The Marine Corp is looking a little schizoid. A couple years ago they were looking to replace all M16s with M4s. In the mean time, they were “replacing” SAWs with M27s. It looks like under the cover of “Every Marine A Light Machinegunner” the Marines are going back to “Every Marine A Street-Legal Carbiner.” Wait! D’oh!

  • C Solomon

    I’ve read the RFI and the use of vendors instead of just vendor really stuck out to me. With HK being caught up in the XM25 kerfuffle, with them not selling parts and all, I think that the Marines are looking to contract out the production of the IAR to another company. I think the RFI is there to make sure that the company in question can make them in the numbers required by the corps and the right specifications. Just speculation.

  • Tom – UK

    One thing that might be worthy of consideration is that this appears to have already been done in the past by the British Armed forces.

    The Light Support Weapon was in effect a longer barreled SA80 with a bipod and rear pistol grip. Beyond the initial A1 issues it was found that:

    1. Magazines did not provide a sufficient rate of fire.
    2. The weapon when used in the automatic role overheated far more rapidly.
    3. The increased long range accuracy from a thicker/longer barrel with bipod etc. was un-done by the introduction of a semi-automatic 7.62 rifle.

    Personally I think the issue here is the weight being carried by the gunners and the role they are being expected to carry out.

  • Kenneth Hammer

    As for “replacing” the M4 and maybe the M16 with the HK 416, while I don’t know if it’s still offered, but when the HK 416 was first introduced, they included in option to just buy the upper and springs to place on the current M4 and M16 lowers for a lower price compared to buying brand new complete rifles.

  • Bad Penguin

    The Marines are going to find this is going to be a very very expensive proposition. People have a tendency to look at just the weapons cost and not the logistics tail needed to support them. They will have to pay people to get the parts cataloged into the system. Pay a depot a ton of money to set up the capability to repair, buy and stock parts, retrain armorers etc etc. Plus its an added headache to deploy and support two weapons systems that do the same thing. BTW why does anyone care how accurate they are as we only teach suppressive wasteammofire.

  • Wow!

    Easy solution, Ares Defense belt fed upper. They can definitely make it cheaper if they get a large order, and it still has the capability to accept M27 belts which no current competitor aside from the already existing M249 can do.

  • nate

    talk of spending millions on a marginal better rifle just distracts from real problems the army has. Instead of spending that money on a new rifle system, use it to enlist more soldiers, better tanks, replace worn out equipment, etc… I hate when lawmakers focus on dumb little things and they don’t see bigger problems items that make a much bigger difference

  • CavScout

    That’s it….
    I’m writing my congressman and getting them to put a stop to this HK/Keys scam….