OPINION: The DOD Should Have Picked GLOCK

Forget about modularity and the other Army requirements for the newly announced M17 sidearm for a moment.  Do you mean to tell me that the DOD just spent $580M on a pistol that has barely been on the market for three years? A gun that will be carried by US soldiers for at least a decade, more likely two or three, that has only been issued to a handful of law enforcement agencies in the United States? (Love ya Hooksett, NH Police!)

The iconic GLOCK pistols have served with distinction for 35 years, in LEO agencies, Militaries, contractors and civilian hands around the globe. The new M17 should have had Gaston’s name on the slide and everyone knows it.

Fanboy? Sure, call me names, throw rotten food at your devices, raise your torches and pitchforks. Listen to some Nickleback for crying out loud. But even if you pray to a different god, be it Sig, S&W, FN or some pot metal creation you got at a show a few years back – Deep down, you know the US Army should be carrying GLOCKs as their new handgun.

Save me your ‘hand grenade’ and grip angle jabs – that’s a smoke screen and you know it. The G17 and/or G19 has served with distinction and has proven itself worthy time and time again. And unlike previous side arm choices, GLOCK pistols aren’t nearing an ‘end of life’ situation or being surpassed by new technologies. Gaston has focused on steady, calculated weapon evolution rather than spurts of revolution interspersed with setbacks. Frustrating for individual gun owners? You bet. But he knows that any misstep in reliability would leave a black mark on the Austrian handgun’s legacy.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure the Sig P320 is a fantastic pistol – reliable, accurate and well made. However, I will argue that it does nothing that the GLOCK already does with a lot more long-term supporting data from a variety of hostile environments.

Yes. I get it. Modularity.

I carried a Sig every day for eight years. I’ve carried a GLOCK every day for eight more. And now, as I ready myself to be issued a new P320, I do so with reluctance but also with acceptance. Knowing (and hoping) that somewhere far above my head, someone knows better than I do. At least I don’t have to deal with that $&@?ing manual safety.

The M9 is dead. Long live the M17.

Note the flavor of slight sarcasm, ladies and gentlemen. Life is good.



Pete

LE – Science – OSINT.
On a mission to make all of my guns as quiet as possible.
Pete.M@staff.thefirearmblog.com
Twitter: @gunboxready
Instagram: @tfb_pete
https://www.instagram.com/tfb_pete/


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  • Michael Derucki

    The butthurt is strong with this one…

    • QuadGMoto

      Is this also sarcasm? Kinda hard to tell over the inter webs. ?

  • Gus Butts

    Every company has caught up to Glock and have produced better striker-fired pistols. It was only a matter of time.

    • Wolfgar

      Yup, I first bought a Glock, then a Springfield XDM, then a Walther PDQ, then a Canik TP9, CZ-PO9, Sig 226, CZ-85, and a Walther CCP. Guess which one I still carry. The crappy old Glock. Fan boy-no, just carry the best.

      • iksnilol

        Then you’re just making bad decisions.

        • Wolfgar

          My score and time says differently.

          • iksnilol

            My condolences on the hand+rock grinder accident then.

          • Wolfgar

            Now that made me laugh 🙂

          • Wolfgar

            I will have to remember that one.

          • iksnilol

            Anything to take your mind off that tragic occurence.

            You’re a brave soul, keep up the good fight. Darn, I’m gettin’ all misty eyed now.

          • Wolfgar

            Your a good person.

      • tiger

        Ever hear of the concept of range rental?? What is point of all the pistol buys?

        • Gary Kirk

          What’s the point of not buying them if you can??

          • Wolfgar

            Exactly, have you ever told yourself, “he has too many firearms” ???

        • Wolfgar

          Wow, I thought I had to actually shoot thousands of rounds in dedicated practice and competition while keeping my score and time to determine which handgun I can run faster, accurately and reliably. Then I thought I had to carry my firearm daily for years to determine which handgun, holster combo works for me in the real world. Silly me, all I really had to do was just go to a rental range and try them out. I bet finding a perfect wife is just as easy. Thank’s tiger, great advice!

          • tiger

            Good luck on the Liz Taylor method of mate selection…

          • Wolfgar

            Good luck on the Bill Clinton method of mate selection.

          • Thomas Moeller

            You mate with your firearms? Ewwwwwwww…

    • john huscio

      Beg to differ. No one has yet reached the golden mean of size/weight/capacity that Glock achieved 40 years ago. A great many companies have put out competing products that might prove themselves superior to Glock in one area or another, but none have ever checked every box Glock has and then exceeded them (all of their competitors are either bigger, heavier, taller, wider or have less capacity or are less reliable/durable). Thats why Glock will continue to do brisk business and maintain a market stranglehold in some areas.

      • Edeco

        Neat what gets made with a visionary in charge, purer product, like Lotus under Chapman, Apple/Jobs, GE/Welch

      • Bill

        Have you much experience with a P320?

        • john huscio

          Taller, wider and heavier than a Glock 19. Doesn’t shoot as flat either. No ergonomic advantage over the Gen 4s either….. The trigger on the one I shot was good though…… like so many others labeled “Glock slayers”, it came up short.

          • The it is 0.31″ taller, 0.12″ wider, and 2.35 oz heavier. Those differences are extremely small, hardly a deal breaker.

            I found with the same ammo that they shoot the same. No major differences in recoil.

          • john huscio

            The fact that none of their competitors can produce pistols that are as size efficient or more so than Glock is annoying. 30+ years on and it still hasn’t happened….

          • You make it sound like you are comparing the Titanic vs a bass fishing boat.

            And it 30 years Glock hasn’t made a truly ambi pistol, one that has a manual safety, one that doesn’t require you to pull the trigger to field strip, nor one with a good trigger out of the box.

            You want a Glock, buy a Glock. But if you want improvements to the Glock design you aren’t going to get something the is the exact same dimensions as a Glock.

          • john huscio

            I’ve found Glock triggers to be perfectly suitable out of the box….. its not a tuned Wilson combat 1911 trigger, but its not an M&P (taking the cake for truly crappy triggers out of the box) trigger either…. then again, I don’t trick out my pistols with alot of aftermarket crap (aside from night sights)

          • “perfectly suitable” aka I accept mediocrity. My Nissan Rogue is perfectly suitable for my day to day driving. But what if for the same price I can get a BMW X5M level of performance?

            Pistols can be made with better out of the box triggers, the Walther striker pistols, the XDM, and the P320 all prove that out. And that is stock, at a similar price point.

          • john huscio

            XDM….lol….

          • R H

            Ok, but that’s literally just 1 feature! BTW I too disagree with the XDM having a better trigger and I own one! You can do awesome things to a Glock trigger without breaking the bank (same is true with an MP and others, but that’s beyond the point). You can find a better trigger, and you can find better ergos, and you can find better sights, but all of those things can be changed! That’s like buying a car because it had nicer rims than the other car. If everything else was truly equal, it’d make sense (and to some people they’re close enough), but if the car with the bad rims had more legroom, then you could always just get new rims. Point is that rims are replaceable, legroom can’t be changed.

          • One feature out of the three or four I pointed out, and most of those are features that can’t be changed. Can you show me how to modify my Glocks so it has a slide lock on the right side, thumb safety, or the ability to field strip it without pulling the trigger?

            And IMO the out of the box XDM trigger is light years better than Glock, and it still isn’t very good compared to Walther or the P320.

          • R H

            Ok, so you have a 320 that’s fat (especially when you take into account the takedown lever), has a high bore axis, is almost as tall as a G17, but it’s got ambi slide release! And if you’re truly an idiot it might save you from ripping a round off during cleaning.

            To be clear I’m not saying that Glock should have won the contract, I think the P320 makes sense. I’m just saying the 19 is the standard because it works for the vast majority of people. Left handed people are about 1/10 and a lot of them shoot right handed anyway. Manual safeties on carry/duty guns are becoming less common. It doesn’t make you wrong to be a left handed shooter with a preference for an unnecessary safety, it just means that there’s probably a better choice out there FOR YOU.

          • And the Honda Civic is pretty much the standard car, that doesn’t mean it is the best car.

            We get it you love Glocks, but guess what it has competition now that do everything better except getting that last 5% of compactness in. Never mind the fact that the X300 I have attached to my carry gun is fatter, longer, and adds more weight.

            Glock lost because they don’t listen to their customers except at gun point. The features that the Glock competitors have didn’t come out of no where. They are features that the users have been requesting for years. Instead of accommodating them Glock acted like a typical European company and said “We know better than you.”

          • R H

            We get it, you love the P320. You’re missing the point…We’re not talking Honda Civic vs BMW. It’s more like Civic vs Carolla. In the end, if something fits you better, carry it! But there are reasons the “Civic” is the standard. You can argue them till you’re blue, but it won’t change anything. It will still be what most people like best whether it’s best for you or not. Glock lost (and deserved to lose) because they didn’t care to redesign the gun to be modular (which ads weight, width, complexity, not to mention R&D). I’d be willing to bet with the FBI contract (not to mention LE and commercial sales) that Glock management doesn’t care. Also I don’t care! I’ll probably own a 320 in the next few years, but I doubt it’ll get carried (it’ll probably be full sized), and it won’t have a manual safety. Just like I love my VP9, I might love the 320, but that won’t make it IWB because it’s not what’s best for me.

          • I honestly I don’t love any gun. They are all disposable tools for me, even my extremely expensive competition guns.

            Out of the plastic fantastic I think the P320 has probably the best feature set, but the moment a better example comes around I will drop the old one like a bad habit. And I try anything, at one point or another I’ve probably had every major service pistol in my safe. Some are there permanently, some are short term.

            But these days I spend more time with my 9mm AR, and my 2011.

          • Kivaari

            Our training had us not using the slide stop. We were trained to pull the slide to the rear to continue shooting. It seemed to work well for both right hand and left hand shooters. When issued a G34 I replaced the slide stop with a standard G17 model so I couldn’t hit it unintentionally. Same for the magazine release, I’d put a short G17 one in so it couldn’t be as easily depressed. I found that the slide stops so convenient on the SIGs got depressed when they should not be depressed allowing the pistol to close on an empty chamber. Some features are not always very good.

          • HollowTs

            The military isn’t going to buy something they have to modify out of the box. Come on! So Glock should atop resting on their laurels. It took them 15 years to upgrade to a dual captured recoil spring. Why doesn’t it seem like they care? They’ve taken their perfection logo a little too seriously imo.

          • M-dasher

            honestly, the trigger on my glock is much better than the trigger on the 320s ive felt.

            the 320 has a mushy trigger with a poorly defined break…….

          • Comrad Question

            Any pistol that’s comparable to an X series BMW is one that that should be avoided at all costs.

          • n0truscotsman

            You want BMW/Euro sports car performance? go with a 1911 custom.

            That is not what the Glock was designed to do. Its designed for inexpensive functionality more than anything.

          • Why not have both? Glocks are the only choice is born out of the school of low expectations. “Glocks work so there is no reason for me to look at anything else.” That blinds people that there is actually some quality choices on the market that are just as reliable as the Glock, with features that are better than the Glock.

          • n0truscotsman

            “low expectations”? compared to what?

            As I’ve said before, for those ‘expecting’ robust reliability and practical functionality, the Glock is a common choice. And this is coming from a M&P fan.

            I agree that the latecomers to the striker game have introduced additional attributes that are more desirable for customers who may have been off-put by Glock.

          • This wasn’t some police department where the Chief picks the pistol based on which company provided the best strippers for their dinner (something Glock is notorious for doing).

            One doesn’t make it through Army testing without robust reliability. I don’t know the details of this test, but if it is like previous test there will be multiple tests to see how reliable the pistols are in a wide variety of conditions.

            You don’t pass those tests you don’t get to the final bidding process. You can find the test procedures for the M9 online as part of a GAO protest report. Which I am sure there will be one of the XM17, because someone will protest.

          • R H

            The things that John mentioned are, to me, what makes the Glock 19 the idea carry pistol (especially the height). In that respect, those numbers do make a huge difference. Heck, a Glock 17 is less than 1/2″ taller than the 19, and the difference in concealability is very noticeable (and the height difference puts the P320 compact closer to the 17 than the 19 in that dimension). The same is true for the other “Glock Killers” out there with a 15 rd capacity.

            With that being said, there are definitely pistols that do certain things better than the Glock. I would argue that there isn’t one that does EVERYTHING better than a Glock. So if you can live without ambi and a manual safety, then you also have the option to just buy a Glock and modify it to your liking. Does that mean everyone is better off with a Glock? Not by a long shot! But the 19 is king for many reasons, whether or not those reasons make it best for you.

          • Zachary marrs

            Glock has indeed made pistols with manual safties, ambi controls, and glock triggers are far from the worst around.

            Pulling the trigger to disassemble is only an issue if checking the chamber is beyond your capabilities

          • On military installations clearing barrels often have more rounds fired into them than qualification targets. So having a pistol that doesn’t require you to pull the trigger to field strip is a HUGE feature.

          • Zachary marrs

            Its called training.

            If you can’t clear a handgun, you shouldn’t be let near one without supervision.

            Non-issue

          • Bob Atom

            Puh-leez, another perfect human being. I am sure you have never had issues after a hard day at the range. I might forget to clear properly after 3 days in Afghanistan and being shot at for days at a time with no sleep. It happens too often! Lessen the chance that it does happen.

          • Zachary marrs

            Yes, i have never had a ND, even with glocks. its really not that hard to be safe with firearms.

            But when you run around blaming the hardware for a software problem, no wonder this is such a big issue.

            I’d be willing to bet if someone is careless enough to ND with a glock, ND’ing with a handgun with a manual safety isn’t out of the question.

          • Kivaari

            Exactly.

          • retfed

            I dunno.
            Back in the 90s, Chicago PD banned Glocks for its officers because of the “pull-the-trigger-to-take-down” feature. (CPD, like NYPD and many other large departments, doesn’t issue weapons, but requires its officers to carry personally-owned weapons off an “approved” list. It’s a lot cheaper.) Instead, CPD authorized Berettas and Sigs. But as of 2007, the only gun new hires were allowed to carry was the Glock (the others were grandfathered in). So either the takedown got less unsafe, or the training got better.

          • Or they realized that their training is so poor that their officers don’t clean their guns.

            There is no reason for that design on a modern duty pistol, there are numerous ways around it that virtually every other manufacturer that makes a striker gun doesn’t require you to pull the trigger to field strip it.

          • retfed

            Most likely, they settled on one gun (the Glock) and redesigned their training program around it.
            And I agree that the trigger-pulling takedown isn’t ideal.
            But everyone here claims everything negative about their favorite gun (e.g., the outside safety on the 1911, the slide-mounted safety on the Beretta, the DA/SA trigger pulls on the Sig or the Beretta, the light trigger on the Glock, etc.) is a “training issue,” so why can’t training overcome this aspect of the Glock?

          • Kivaari

            Except clearing a pistol is the first step in cleaning the pistol. What is so hard about pulling the magazine, racking the slide to the rear and then verifying it is empty that is so hard. If I clean an M92 or a Glock, I have to go through that routine. Adding a trigger pull is not a problem if you have cleared the pistol.
            Every time a ND took place with a M1911 in the service it was the fault of the person. Failure to clear. Then there was the watch change where the pistols were handed off to the new guy and he’d insert the magazine (after you had removed it) racked the slide and pulled the trigger. It’s like they have no brain. My training on the M1911A1 in the navy was absolutely zero instruction. My instruction on the M1 rifle was absolutely zero. The navy had me shoot 10 rounds of 22 LR ammo out of a Remington M513 at 50 feet. Yet, they handed me the guns for details.

          • Kivaari

            Poor training once again rears its ugly head. The professional military men have less real hands on experience than the average private citizen gun owner.

          • Exactly, the average gun owner (who are pretty poorly trained themselves) often shoots more than the average pistol carrier in the Army. Even though in many cases the pistol is the only small arm that they carry.

          • frankspeak

            never gave field stripped any of mine [Glocks]…still work every time!

          • Kivaari

            I clean my Glocks after every use and sometimes just for the heck of it. It doesn’t hurt to de-dust them and lightly lube ’em.

          • Steve H

            Common issue maybe? It has certainly gained a reputation.

          • Zachary marrs

            Lots of times reputations aren’t deserved

          • Bob Atom

            It happens all the time, hence safeties and training. Addition of the safeties, and clearing procedures need to be as fool proof as possible. Humans handle firearms, they will make mistakes, reduce the possibility whenever possible.

          • Zachary marrs

            Training? What training? The US military spends almost no time on handguns.

          • Don’tBASucker

            which only makes his point more valid; having to pull the trigger is a negative no matter you slice it

          • Zachary marrs

            No.

          • Don’tBASucker

            of course it does

            you say yourself that the military spend little time training on handguns…and since training involves repetition, logic dictates that part of the method may not be ingrained properly…Hence no-trigger pull-dissasembly

          • Zachary marrs

            When you are sick, you treat the symptom? Or the actual problem?

            Requiring no trigger pull is trying to solve a symptom.

          • Don’tBASucker

            you admitted yourself that the military doesn’t spend enough time treating the problem…hence it would make sense to minimize the chance of getting sick in the first place.

            aside from that, we all no there is no cure for the cold, you can only deal with it when you catch it…:wink:

            lets bring all these analogies full circle
            (Pulling the trigger for disassembly)

            since humans are incapable of not catching a cold, the only way to make sure 100% they don’t get sick (accidentally shoot someone), is to eliminate all cold germs (cold germs = trigger pull before disassembly)

          • Zachary marrs

            Let me dumb it down for you.

            Don’t want troops to ND?

            Teach them not to ND.

            Simple, no?

          • Don’tBASucker

            let me dumb it down for you further

            Goal…Eliminate Accidental Discharge When Disassembly of Pistol

            Fact A: Elimination = 100% removal of danger
            Fact B: Human beings are never, and will never be capable of 100%
            Fact C: Accidental Discharge During Disassembly Requires Pulling The Trigger

            Logic dictates that removing the trigger pull step Eliminates Accidental Discharge…and allows us to attain the stated goal

            You clearly have difficulty in accepting Fact ‘B’… So it’s Reality and Logic – vs- Your Idealism

          • Zachary marrs

            People will never be 100%

            Neither will machines.

            They will still ND. It doesn’t matter how many safeties, how many billboard warnings, or how takedown doesn’t require a trigger pull, people will inadvertently shoot themselves/others. Making one tiny change will not prevent idiots from being idiots

            It’s a shame you can’t make money out of thin air like you do “problems”. You’d be a millionaire.

          • Don’tBASucker

            ”’They will still ND. It doesn’t matter how many safeties, how many billboard warnings, or how take-down doesn’t require a trigger pull, people will inadvertently shoot themselves/others.”’

            The topic was ‘trigger pull required for disassembly’

            now if you want to go off on tangents about other ways to ND, i would welcome your thoughts

          • Zachary marrs

            The fact is, nothing will stop people from having ND’s. If they are stupid enough to have one trying to strip a pistol, they are stupid enough to ND the rest of the time.

          • Don’tBASucker

            you’re comparing apples and lawnmowers

            a ND during cleaning
            -vs-
            a ND during…
            -Drawing the weapon under stress
            -Holstering the weapon under stress
            -A Firefight

            it’s safe to say that the 3 don’t need to involve ‘Stupid’

            you’re beginning to sound like someone who just like being condescending…:shrug:

          • Zachary marrs

            No, just a guy who is smart enough not to shoot themselves/others

            In fact, you don’t have to be a super genius brain scientist to avoid that, all you need to do, is not be a complacent idiot.

            But no! Lets not nip the problem in the bud, lets use mechanical crutches to just help hide the real issue in the corner.

            Tell you what, you get the figures on how many ND’s the British, Norwegians, and Swedish militaries have when cleaning glocks.

            Go ahead and get the figures from SOCOM as well.

            I’ll wait patiently.

          • Don’tBASucker

            Goal…Eliminate ND during pistol cleaning

            Training = Minimize
            Remove the step = Eliminate

            If ‘Eliminate’ is the goal..(and it is)..then removing the step is the only solution

            If you cannot accept this glaring scientific Fact, then continuing this conversation is pointless

          • Zachary marrs

            Wheres the figures i asked you for?

            ND’s in general are the problem, and that problem is solved by training people to not be idiots. Changing the takedown procedure will get you nowhere

            Seriously, go get the numbers of ND’s the brits, and pretty much everyone else has when cleaning their pistols.

            Otherwise, go away.

          • Don’tBASucker

            accept that scientific Facts presented

            otherwise, go away

          • Zachary marrs

            What scientific facts? You are trying to argue that solving the WHOLE problem is not as good as solving one tiny slice of the issue.

            Go away

          • Don’tBASucker

            lol…i see

            we’ve reached the “facts aren’t facts” portion of your denial

            enjoy living in your idealism….the rest of us will sit comfortably in reality

            come on back when you’re ready

          • Zachary marrs

            Facts are indeed facts. You haven’t introduced a single fact in any of your replies.

            When are you going to get me the figures i asked for? Lots of militaries use glocks, and if pulling the trigger to disassemble is so dangerous, you’d think it’d be a big deal.

          • Don’tBASucker

            “You haven’t introduced a single fact in any of your replies.”

            HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !

            and with THAT bit of Asinine Drivel, we shall bring this to an end

            i’ll let the Facts speak for themselves…:wink:

            have ‘The Last Word’..if you feel it will make you look good in front of the rest here

            Thanks for the laughs !

          • Zachary marrs

            That you try to paint me as some smug, condensing person because i can pass the low bar of “not shooting myself” should tell you all you need to know.

          • frankspeak

            true enough…usually have to seek it out….

          • frankspeak

            got that right!….

          • Bad Penguin

            The factory Glock trigger is horrid and is worse even than a mil spec AR trigger.

          • Zachary marrs

            No, it is not “horrid”. You must not have much experience with firearms

          • Bad Penguin

            I have ton of experience with firearms and have fired quite a few Glocks. Factory Glock triggers suck. Luckily they are easily replaced with after market trigger kits.

          • Zachary marrs

            No, they do not “suck”.

            They are not geissele, but if you think they suck, you need to shoot some more guns, then get back to us.

          • Bad Penguin

            I have been shooting pistols, rifles and shotguns since 1972,then various machine guns and full auto rifles since 1976. In all of those years I have never shot a factory trigger that was as bad as a Glocks. I have had a Glock since 91 and have shot several of them of different models and the factory trigger sucks. Thats why mine has an after market trigger and spring set on it. Thats why there is such a big aftermarket after replacement triggers for them. If you are happy with the stock trigger god bless you. You can pick up five identical glocks and none will have the same pull so maybe you got lucky.

          • Zachary marrs

            Lol. You have absolutely no clue about what you are talking about.

            Get out more, go shoot an M&P, or a nagant revolver, or a p-64 just to name a few.

            If you think glocks are terrible, it’s probably the only gun you’ve ever shot.

          • Don’tBASucker

            yeppers

            i’ve tested a LOT Striker Triggers in the past 10 years, and Glock triggers are indeed Horrid

            I’ve tried to compile a list of Best to Worst Striker Triggers, but it’s really difficult because they are so uniquely Good or Bad…i’m going to give it a try…(Of those i remember)

            1…Canik TP9SF…Got it All Right
            2…Walther PPQ…Rest is actually too Short…easy to Double-Tap against your will
            3…Bersa BP9CC…smooth and Light..but a solid 1/4 inch of creep before the break…truly a strange, but decent trigger
            4…M@P…predictable but a really stiff break
            5…Ruger SR9…Glock’ish, but not as bad
            6…XD…decent take-up…but mushy as hell break
            7…Glock…mushy/ stacky take-up…mediocre break
            8…Walther CCP..(Worse than Glock ?!..Yes it is)…light/mushy/stacky and you have NO idea when it’s going to break….unbelievably BAD trigger from a Co. that gave us the PPQ

            some others i don’t remember..like HK VP…FN..etc etc

          • Bad Penguin

            Thanks for your reply and analysis of all of those pistols.
            Some people get so possessive of their favorite weapon they can’t bring themselves to allow any criticism of it. Glock isnt a bad pistol but I did like shooting mine until I changed the trigger. AR milspec triggers is my pet pev. I see people dropping $2K on an AR that has a stock milspec trigger. Then they have to drop another $200 or more into it,

          • James Young

            Compare the Glock 19 to a Walther PPQ. Shorter overall length, lighter, great trigger, superior ergonomics, including a better grip angle. The PPQ is closer to the perfect pistol than the Glock 19.

            Just letting you know…

          • m-dasher

            when you have to carry one every day, along with 60-100lbs of other gear……you look to save weight wherever you can……ounces and inches add up

          • Amplified Heat

            Which is why we should have gone to the five-seven two decades ago, but whatever…

          • Bad Penguin

            You do realize dont you that the 5.7 is nothing more than a center fire .22 magnum. In fact the 5.7 only surpasses the .22 mag when its shot out of a rifle and is the round with the steel core.

          • Amplified Heat

            I’ll nibble your troll bait; 5.7 is a 22WMR with;
            -A better primer system
            -No rim for way better mag/feeding reliability
            -Uses real jacketed spitzer boat tail bullets
            -Far stronger brass not made of foil, because it…
            -Operates at roughly double WMRs peak pressure
            -Therefore operates infinitely more cleanly than any rimfire could hope for
            -Outperforms WMR at every barrel length when shooting same-weight projectiles (see again higher pressure, more powder volume, better bullets, better powder). Not sure where you got the idea rimfire was faster unless a PS90 was in the mix; you’ve got it backward, and 5.7 from a handgun rivals 22WMR from a rifle.

            So basically they’re nothing alike, in practice. At least, I have not found them to be.

            That WMR can even pretend to rival 5.7 in certain tests is more a testament to recent improvements in that underrated round, than a condemnation of 5.7. 5.7 is comparable to lower-end 9mm defensive rounds, but with much less recoil and higher capacity (and the velocity to punch Kevlar better than 9mm Para when using the correct ammo). 22WMR with decent HP bullets is yet another incremental step below that, which is why many do not see it as a viable defense round.

            Still though, even the PMR30 would be largely an improvement over the M9 on weight/cost alone. These pistols are the definition of ‘carried a lot, shot little’ apart from training, and even weaker rounds are sufficient for the deterrent/last resort use intended for service pistols.

          • Bad Penguin

            Well thought out response but controlled tests show exactly what I said. Yes the 5.7 would be a better all around round for an automatic pistol for everything you mentioned. The performance isnt there and if it at best is only as good as low end 9mm then what is the point? If it was great then SOF forces would all be carrying it.
            If you like it, shoot well with it and are willing to stake your life on it then I’m happy for you. I dont mean that in a smart @ssed way either.

          • Amplified Heat

            Please link or name the controlled tests you refer to; I’ve seen the MAC armor test suggesting the PMR has similar muzzle velocity even though this a) makes no logical sense from a physics standpoint unless the ammo is pushing 50ksi pressure, and b) was conducted at close range where the lower-drag bullets are not an advantage, and c) was conducted with ammo specifically designed by FNH to not penetrate armor (the heavy, slow SS197 fmj, iirc) and rapidly break up in tissue.

            The point is a loaded service pistol that’s as light as an empty G17, with three more rounds, and 1/3 less recoil, while giving up precious little in the way of ballistics (certainly nothing significant at fairly close distances, where 9mm slows and drops so rapidly)

            SOF don’t use it, but why would they use any product specifically designed for merely adequate *defensive usage* as opposed to far more powerful alternatives when looking for trouble? There’s also the very real factor, for the pistol anyway, that its manual of arms is quite different from other options, and users want familiarity in pistols more than in rifles, even. The bane of the 5.7 has always been unrealistic expectations; people thinking it’d rival 5.56, or outperform 45acp, despite far less lead and/or powder than either.

          • Kafir1911

            Roger that.

          • TNoebel

            That’s what she said!

          • Zachary marrs

            So in other words, it’s taller, heavier, and wider. Got it.

          • Don’tBASucker

            if you’re worried about those fractions…you got more pressing issues….like accepting that you’re being a little Sally

            pssst…heavy guns shoot better, always have, always will

          • Zachary marrs

            When you ask for a 2×4, would you be happy if they gave you a 3×5?

            I doubt it.

            Nobody has been able to meet the glock 19’s form factor, if they did, the 19 would not be as popular as it is.

            So what about heavy guns shooting better? On a carry piece, being more comfotable to carry is more important that how comfotable it is to shoot

          • Don’tBASucker

            ”When you ask for a 2×4, would you be happy if they gave you a 3×5?”

            False Equivalence Argument

            inches – vs- slivers

            fix the glock’s wrong-grip-angle, give it a Canik TP9 trigger or possibly the Walther PPQ trigger, (with a slightly longer reset), and you have a wonderful combat gun; for crybabies about weight….make the frame out of a ‘heavy’ aluminum, give it 2-dot straight sights, and it might be the most Perfect combat pistol ever made

          • Bill

            So what’s that in experience? Fondling at a gunshop, or a couple thousand rounds downrange? Did you try any of the other grip frames?

            “Doesn’t shoot as flat.” What’s that mean?

            I’ve got both, and either will get me to the rifle I should have had in the first case. I doubt that there would be a difference in qualification scores with either one.

      • Rocky Mountain 9

        “None have ever checked every box box Glock gas and then exceeded them” … Except SIG Sauer.

      • lalan

        Don’t forget the Glocks native short reset trigger for super rapid shooting, rarely equaled till this day. And the Glocks ‘super’ polymer, which softens the recoil in rapid shooting, this has yet to be equaled as the Glock polymers secret recipe remains a secret. And the whole ‘no safeties’is a feature not a defect. Nitriding as standard, polymer steel frame magazines, both rarely equaled let alone surpassed to this day.
        It’s clear the Glock will surpass if it hasn’t already, the 1911 as the greatest and most influential pistol ever invented.

        • retfed

          “. . . [T]he Glock will surpass, if it hasn’t already, the 1911 as the greatest and most influential pistol ever invented.”
          Burn the heretic!

          • lanabb

            Ironically Brownings original vision for the 1911, with no manual safety, single action only and no thumb safety would have been similar to a Glock in philosophy.

        • Bob Atom

          Most popular pistol, greatest and influential refers to marketing. obummer was elected twice…Perfection…puh-leez…

        • richard kluesek

          Glock gen 3 and 4 alledgedly use Dupont’s Nylon # 6 according to some of the civilian gun scribes and bloggers.

        • Don’tBASucker

          ”It’s clear the Glock will surpass if it hasn’t already, the 1911 as the greatest and most influential pistol ever invented.”

          yeah….on how to Not make a pistol

        • frankspeak

          not sure I would support the “no safeties” as a plus..[I use safe-t-blocks”]…..not to mention that hole in the wall..which is now a conversation piece!….

      • James Young

        That’s not the golden mean

      • noob

        agreed. I’ve been looking everywhere for a detailed video of how the Sig’s fire control system works in the p320. I did find some detail cleaning videos on youtube and the tiny twin 1300799-R sear return springs, and the little hat on the p320 slide lock lever look like a nightmare.

        Sure if there is a unit armorer you’d never *have( to pull apart the trigger group of any gun, and you will probably never be authorised to if you are not the unit armorer, but these tiny parts look like they are just asking inquisitive hands to lose them or reinstall them incorrectly in the inevitable event that one in the many hundreds of thousands of issued M17s gets pulled apart to see what makes it tick.

        Glock trigger groups have far fewer moving parts, and they are easy enough to understand that nobody would pull apart their Glock to see how it works.

        • richard kluesek

          Interesting point about aspirant gunsmiths tinkering with service pistols. And Glock is worldwide with 35 years distribution. So qualified armorers and small parts and magazines can be out sourced, but can same be said for SiG?

      • frankspeak

        in the general culture..the word “Glock” has become synonymous with “pistol”…..

        • Cary Starke

          unsubcribe

          • frankspeak

            likewise

    • Sledgecrowbar

      I dunno, I like to collect and somehow the Glock still seems to just work better than the rest of my collection of it’s peers, better factory trigger, better internal design, easier to strip and clean. They have experience behind them I guess, maybe if I had a Gen 2 Glock it would compare to a Gen 1 M&P, given that Glock did a lot of the trailblazing it took to get the striker-fired polymer handgun to this point. Not trying to fanboy with that insight, I love my aluminum-framed SIGs, but it stands to reason that experience is worth something.

    • Scott P

      This

      Having tried and shot many Glocks I was about to write off polymer-framed handguns for good until I heard about the P320 and rented one.

      Now I own a 320. It changed my mind and fixed all the issues I had with Glocks.

    • RyanC

      Glocks are more functional, and have been for a long time. The 320 (in subcompact configuration) has extractor issues.

      Bottom line: Glocks don’t have a safety, and they are not modular. That’s disaster for the Army.

      The idea they are more reliable is laughable.

    • Magical Mangina

      Uh oh… you’ve done it, now. Better put on a flame suit ([whispers]…i agree with you…)

  • Keiichi

    “However, I will argue that [the Sig] does nothing that the GLOCK already does…”

    Seams reasonable ?

    (I’m guessing it’s supposed to be “the GLOCK doesn’t already do…”)

    • Gus Butts

      “However, I will argue that [the Sig] does nothing that the GLOCK already does”…

      Except winning massive US Army contracts.

      • Mr Universe

        Boooooom.

      • Joseph Smith

        SHOTS FIRED!

        • Gary Kirk

          Nah.. Contracts won..

      • Take2andCallmyMom

        Well so did Beretta…and EOtech…want me to keep going?

        • Gary Kirk

          The Beretta was fine, and eotech was a stop gap when aimpoint couldn’t meet demand..

          • Take2andCallmyMom

            The Beretta was “fine?” Hahaha ok, that’s a good one. I gotta remember that,

            *writes that down*

          • Don Ward

            Yes. The Beretta was fine. Or are you one of those guys with small hands who can’t properly grip it or manipulate the controls?

            Hmmmm?

          • DJ9r

            Is that the same Beretta that launched broken slides into the faces of users?

            The same Beretta that many users accidentally put “on safe” during tap/rack/fire drills, due to the location of the slide-mounted safety lever?

            The same Beretta that had mag floorplates crack and fall off the original mags, and the later lowest-bidder mags wouldn’t work under field conditions?

            THAT Beretta?

          • Don Ward

            You mean the slide issue that was fixed decades ago? You mean the safety issue which is now “fixed” by offsetting it and wasn’t a problem anyway if you have simple coordination and know how to rack the slide properly and not like a primitive primate with arthritis?

          • DJ9r

            So yes, we’re talking about the same Beretta, the one you said was “fine”.

            And anyone can run a slide at half-speed; it’s what happens at ‘oh-poop-someone-is-trying-to-kill-me’ speed that shows whether the pistol has a problem or not. And the M9-series does. When folks start grabbing at the slide FAST, those little levers become handles that help improve traction,and prevent firing a moment later. Not good when your life is on the line.

            I trained folks on the M9 for years, owned several 92-series pistols myself, shot them in competition and carried them for defensive use. If they just would have left the safety on the frame, it would have been a better pistol by far. Maybe made a modification similar to the Taurus clones, giving the frame-mounted safety a spring-loaded-return third position (WAY down) for decocking, too. But no, they had to put the levers on the slide. Bad move, that still haunts the design to this day.

          • CommonSense23

            If that is the case, why is Socom still buying Eotechs.

        • Gus Butts

          You mean products of two companies that performed really well for the entirety of the time they were in use? What’s your point, though? We’re discussing Sig and Glock, which is the entire subject of this article.

          • john huscio

            Glocks been in service with the FBI going on 20 years with a good service record, and it looks like it’ll be in service for another 20 at least….

          • frankspeak

            damned thing is indestructible!…

      • n0truscotsman

        …except Glock has *other* foreign sales to innumerable military and police organizations, including certain units in the US Military…

      • iksnilol
    • Ben M

      Except actually providing the modularity as required by the competition… I don’t disagree with the author on many points, but ignoring or downplaying this fact is simply putting blinders on to reality. The army asked for something specific, and seemingly Sig was the only company to actually pay attention to that request.

      • Keiichi

        My post is pointing out a grammar correction…. I don’t have a horse in this race…

        • Ben M

          I know, but I wanted to respond to that specific quote. Since you already brought it up, responding right here seemed logical.

          • Keiichi

            Eh, I’d say your response is out of context as a response to my post, but whatever works…

          • Ben M

            Eh, I think it works ok.

      • DonDrapersAcidTrip

        The M model glock 17 uses just a longer glock 19 barrel now, so what exactly can the “modular” 320 do that one of these glocks couldn’t. you could put a m model 17 slide on a 19 frame.

        • Gary Kirk

          Umm.. You could always put a 17 upper on a 19… But I guess if you want the M model the slides would fall off all the same..

          • OhTheHorrer

            Yours would fall off too if you put the slide lock in backwards. I think that guy assembling those Glocks for the Indiana LEOs probably got fired and then got rode out of Smyrna, GA on a rail for that. Then tarred and feathered, then burned in effigy, then had nasty things said about him on FACEBOOK!!!

          • OhTheHORROR<—(not sic)

            Horror*

          • DonDrapersAcidTrip

            No you couldn’t. Glock 17 used a different locking block until the m models

          • Gary Kirk

            We’re talking about now right? Which would indicate the “M” models..

          • DonDrapersAcidTrip

            I’m not sure what you’re talking about

          • iksnilol

            You take 17M upper on a 19M lower.

            Geez, Louise.

          • DonDrapersAcidTrip

            That… was what I said originally?

    • One big thing that seems to be ignored, the 320 doesn’t require you to pull the trigger to strip it down. Which is a big plus when you consider how limited pistol training is in the Army.

      • Minuteman

        Good point, food for thought. Yet anybody who’s familiar with ’em should know how to strip a pistol, right?

        • Considering that some people barely even know how to unload them, probably not.

        • Gary Kirk

          “Anyone who’s familiar with them”.. You realize we’re talking about the army here.. Most just think it’s another part of the uniform..

    • LCON

      A great Disturbance in the Jimmies… As if A million Glock Fans Cried out in one moment from there Rustling….

    • Pete – TFB Writer

      Haha! Awesome. Thanks!

    • Nicks87

      I been seeing a lot of claims about butt hurt Glock fans but I really don’t think it exists on the scale that some people are making it out to be. I’m a Glock fanboy and I think they picked the right pistol (per contract specs). I think issuing Glocks to every Soldier, Sailor, Airman and Marine would be a bad idea. Non-combat/non law enforcement troops do not get near the amount of training to justify carrying Glocks nor do they need it. The Glock pistol is better suited for LE purposes where it’s usually the officers primary weapon, a defensive weapon that has no frills but does exactly what its required to do and be as reliable and accurate as a pistol needs to be.

      • dirtsailor

        That makes no sense. What training is necessary for a Glock that won’t be for the new Sig? Personally, I am a M&P guy. That doesn’t mean that I don’t think that Glocks are inferior in any way. Firearms training is firearms training, no matter what you are issued. I grew up on the 1911 and didn’t actually see an M9 until way into my career. I still prefer the 1911, but that doesn’t mean that I did not get proficient with the Beretta.
        Most people I know have Glocks as personal weapons, so it would not be much of a change for them if they were to be issued a Glock.
        I think it was a political decision and that ain’t gonna change any time soon.

        • Old Vet

          Dang it, you stole my post….haha

        • RyanC

          Starts with an S, ends with a Y, and John Moses Browning felt so strongly about including it on his pistols, that he put two on the 1911 so Army soldiers didn’t shoot holes in their legs and feet.

          That’s what training is necessary.

          • Wow!

            Safeties don’t make a shooter any safer, if anything it makes them more dangerous causing them to boom when they want silence, and silence when they want boom. Safeties really don’t do anything if the firearm is striker fired where it cannot go off unless the trigger is pulled.

          • frankspeak

            no argument there..the amount of safety features on the 1911 are without peer..

          • BigR

            Good point! The Army trained me to handle the 1911and all I wanted to do was shoot it every minute I could. I was 18 at the time, and love that damn pistol, to this day!!!! The M-1 Garand was a ball to shoot too!

        • frankspeak

          AMEN!..

      • Bob Atom

        LEs for the most part, should NOT be issued Glocks. Why people think cops are good firearms handlers is beyond me.

        • Nicks87

          You are clueless. Most cops are above average shooters.

          • Tango Down

            Having “been there, done that”. I have to respectfully totally disagree! Overall, the EDC civilian crowd is far better equipped and trained out of personal driving interest and a true desire to know their firearm, not merely because “it’s part of their job” mentality.

            This is proven by the fact that less innocents are injured and killed in active shooter situations when a law abiding citizen engages the active shooter versus when LE engages the active shooter. FBI has proven this true.

            That’s not to say LE are totally incompetent, just that on average they receive far less training and range time than law abiding citizen’s that carry EDC.

          • Kivaari

            That’s not been my experience. I am a retired cop and former gun store owner. A few private citizens shot a lot and knew their stuff. Some cops were quite good and our department trained better and with more rigid guidelines than most.

          • frankspeak

            not always the case…which accounts for “emptying the clip”….

          • Helium3

            Disagree. Most major metropolitan city police are not above average shooters. Especially in major liberal cities where anytime you pull your weapon you are going to be vilified in the press. Those police don’t see a lot of range time and are not your traditional type shooter. But go out to a west Texas town or southern part of the country or anywhere a PD is where it a big hunting area and you will find some hardcore marksmen.

        • TW

          My Qualification skills would beg to differ.

          • Bad Penguin

            Is their great shooting skills the reason cops fire so many shots (especially in NYC) and only hit the perp a few times?

        • BigR

          The cops in my city are well trained. Lots of them compete all over the country.

        • Kivaari

          We were trained well. No certified officer had NDs in my presence. We issued Glocks with 3.5# connectors and did not encounter problems. Training and keeping that trigger finger where it belongs is the key to safe gun handling.

        • Kivaari

          What should they be issued and why?

      • frankspeak

        I rest my case…except for the safety aspects..the last part of your comment says it all!….

      • Bad Penguin

        Nick, thats about the most sensible thing about pistol selection that I have read in a long time. People get to wrapped up in their favorite pistol whether it makes sense or not.

  • TechnoTriticale

    re: …barely been on the market for three years?

    How long had the M1911 been on the market when it was adopted?

    Anyway, do we expect any sort of official report on why the winner was selected?

    • Bill

      Excellent point. How long was the M16 on the market, either?

  • BattleshipGrey

    I’ve never shot a Sig P320, so I can’t bash it. However, IMO, I agree it should’ve gone to Glock for the reasons above, but, the Army didn’t ask my opinion. I’ll still be carrying a Glock on my hip everyday, so no skin off my back.

  • Joel Thompson

    I was just discussing this with two of my friends last night, both of them Glock fanboys. The truth is that Glock HASN’T worked to keep itself competition in the market place. They’ve been relying on their name for too long, and they are facing a host of stiff competition in the striker-fired market place. Even then, their quality has been having some issues. My friend and I bought our carry pistols around there same time. Mine a performance center shield, and he a Glock 26. We’ve been carrying everyday and in comparable kydex/leather hybrid holsters. We compared the finish last night, and the finish on his had been worn off in numerous places while there isn’t a spot on mine. Another friend has been having pits and spots of rust show up on his slide. Glock perfection isn’t what it used to be.

    • JSmath

      But but but, they finally make a single stack now!

      • iksnilol

        That is barely thinner than the doublestack.

  • Joseph Smith

    Yup, that’s an opinion.

    “Yes. I get it. Modularity.”

    Did you read the bid? Modularity was the requirement. Glock just entered their existing 30 year platform.

    I own more P226s than I care to admit on the internet. So this wasn’t my first choice either but it makes so much sense for the mil I can’t even list all the ways. Not just being able to adapt the system for different missions/roles but also to a specific soldier/Marine. The ability for the individual to swap out slides, barrels, frames outside the armory (or not) is a huge win. All on the same platform, same operation, same reliability.

    Upgrade program? No problem. The only limitation with the P320 is the FCU.

    Everyone is entitled to his own opinion but the case for Glock over Sig hasn’t been made here or anywhere else I’ve read in the last couple days.

    • Pete – TFB Writer

      I’m 49% disappointed and 51% just having fun. I realize Glock failed to meet the specs.

      • Joseph Goins

        Glock didn’t fail to meet any specification. If they did, they would have been eliminated in the very first round. The government required a either 1) a full size and compact size gun or 2) one gun that could accommodate both sizes. Glock stuck with what they had always done while Sig purpose built a weapon for the competition under the second category.

        • Joseph Smith

          The modular framework for the P320 was laid with the P250 in 2007 well before MHS. And P250 frames and mags are interchangeable, FYI.

          If anything the P320 was an attempt to salvage the P250 in the civilian market after the P250 mostly failed to catch on (horrible trigger).

          • Joe Gamer

            This guy gets it…
            The modular platform was limited to DAO in the hammer fired P250. Had it been a decent DA/SA they would have been much better recieved but the FCG doesn’t have provisions for it, it can ONLY be had in DAO which is DOA to most people(including me). Shame too, I’d have loved it.

    • n0truscotsman

      Handguns aren’t rocket science to maintain, but all of this talk about modularity is a pile of horsecrap if the *actual measures* aren’t undertaken to maintain handguns: a problem the Army has with the M9. And the slides, barrels, and anything else in between can be easily replaced in the Beretta. They’re just not like they should be and many lots are long in the tooth.

      It also ignores the reality that the units most inclined to configure their handguns for different missions/roles obtain their *own* (usually Glocks now) anyways.

      Perhaps the P320 makes it “easier”, which isn’t saying much to begin with.

      “Glock over Sig hasn’t been made here or anywhere else I’ve read in the last couple days”

      The best case that can be made is that the Glock has a longer track record than the P320, being in military and police service since the 1980s. That is 30 years of experience and familiarity with the design, in addition to the production and support available.

      The utilization of Glocks by other military units is pretty telling in itself.

      It comes down to what an organization prefers

      A.) A tried and proven design that is little changed since the 80s

      or

      B.) A new design tailored in response to the competition requirements.

      Im more interested, personally, in choice A. Some others prefer B.

      • Joseph Smith

        Why not stick with the M1911?

        “A tried and proven design that is little changed over the last 100 years.”

        I know what you’re trying to say that this was preference, but if you bother to read the bid you will quickly note, as did the author (Pete) that Sig was the only one to actually meet the requirements.

        This was an objective evaluation, not a subjective one based on feels. And you, like everyone else has still failed to make the case for Glock.

        “It also ignores the reality that the units most inclined to configure their handguns for different missions/roles obtain their *own* (usually Glocks now) anyways.”

        WITH A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WEAPON. WHICH REQUIRES DIFFERENT MAGS, PARTS, ETC… Glocks in SOCOM for example were a stop-gap waiting for MHS to complete. They’ll get surveyed as they go end of life and replaced with the M17.

        • n0truscotsman

          Because the 1911 underwent the same problems as the current M9s: lack of maintenance and lots were aging.

          And the 45 ACP cartridge is effectively obsolete for a sidearm cartridge.

          “but if you bother to read the bid you will quickly note,”

          If you will quickly note, *you* claimed that *you* haven’t seen arguments favorable towards the Glock. I just made them. The discussion about the requirements is a different matter.

          “This was an objective evaluation, not a subjective one based on feels”

          Thats a pretty lofty assumption given the current state of military procurement.

          “And you, like everyone else has still failed to make the case for Glock”

          Then re-read again. Coincidentally, my arguments are the reason why many police and military forces are using them, to include US Special Operations.

          “They’ll get surveyed as they go end of life and replaced with the M17.”

          Thats another assumption on your part (one which IMO would be a good thing if proven true). I anticipate SOF generally using the M17 just like they mostly use the M9, with the units inclined to use Glocks (or whatever else) to keep using them.

          “standard” is good in theory, until it isn’t.

      • HollowTs

        Glock had a first day too! Should the military not buy new designs because there’s a 30 y/o one that the company doesn’t want to update. That has been the most lame argument I have heard in this debate. So what of progress? That’s why the M9 is gone. It was a “30 y/o design”!

        • n0truscotsman

          So you’re telling me the P320 is a “new” design?

          (chuckles)

          “So what of progress?”

          Ah the chronocentrism rears its head.

          How much more ‘progress” changes a semi-automatic 9mm handgun from what it is? a semi-automatic, magazine-fed, 9mm handgun?

          “That’s why the M9 is gone.”

          Thats not exactly why the M9 is gone. You’re drawing to wrong conclusions.

  • derfelcadarn

    I am a revolver guy , but I know what works and the biggest mistake ever made in US military arms is dumping the 1911.

    • Minuteman

      Hear hear!

      • CommonSense23

        Yes let’s use a outdated and expensive design.

        • Minuteman

          Well, that’s in the eye of the beholder. Expensive? Yes. But do good things in life ever come cheap? You don’t get to drive Audi at a Honda price. It’s the same thing with everything: you get what you pay for. But A multi k hand gun for military service is of course not even under consideration. Hence my vote for the LH9N MKII.

          • beasdfe

            Audi? Unless you are driving an A8 or above, you are just driving a dressed up over priced Volkswagen (kind of like a Salient Arms Glock).

          • iksnilol

            And Volkswagen is trying to sell itself as a cool, expensive brand nowadays. And of course the quality suffers because you don’t need to worry about quality since it is a VW (it sells on the name alone).

            Trust me, buy a Skoda, same thing but actually built correctly.

          • Sweethome Praha

            Wish we could get Skodas in the US. The Czechs make the best handguns and beer. They also export tons of hot pornstars. Having developed a taste for the former, I would like to sample their auto workmanship..

          • iksnilol

            From personal experience, it is basically Volkswagen just cheaper and better built.

            I think it is because Skoda can’t sell itself based on the name, so they have to “compensate” by having much better build quality.

          • iksnilol

            Digression: I’d rather pay Audi prices to drive a Honda than vice versa. Audis are just bad. But people love them ’cause they’re a brand name, and they look “cool” and have floaty suspenison.

    • DataMatters

      Why? The 1911 was never going to work in a 21st century military with NATO calibers. Just face facts–single action type handguns are obsolete, especially when you are talking about a major military force that does very little in the way of training with the pistols. Had they not adopted the Beretta, they would have been better off with a DAO revolver in .38 (if not standardizing on 9mm). The Beretta was never a bad choice. It’s only Internet commandos who think so.

      • Minuteman

        First: screw NATO. And the whole ammo commonality thing is overrated anyway because in reality everybody has their own Class 5 support chain regardless.
        Second: The M9 indeed isn’t a bad pistol at all. Actually it’s a superb quality gun. The M9A3 wouldn’t have been a bad choice. Platform familiarity is never a bad thing. There are way better guns out there that also come at a significantly lower price point though -> LH9N MKII

        • Joe

          Great gun, just bought one, but not for this.

          • Minuteman

            Why wouldn’t it be? It’s good to go out the gate, requires zero after market upgrades. The gun is perfect and of insanely good quality while being very affordably priced -in fact it’s underpriced for what it is.

          • DJ9r

            Larger/heavier than it needs to be for the caliber and capacity, doesn’t fit smaller hand sizes well, and is prone to be accidentally put “on safe” during immediate-action (tap/rack/fire) drills due to the slide-mounted rotating safety lever.

            (I was an M9 instructor for 10+ years)

          • Minuteman

            I disagree on your size comment? It’s a very compact hand gun that conceals very well. The grips are actually too shorter than those of many other hand guns and it was obviously made to fit the hands of Asians. As for the safety, it’s very positive. I prefer not to have any external safeties on my hand guns but have no problem with those on my 1911. The G upgrade resolved the safety issue on the M9.

          • DJ9r

            When the M9 is compared to similar capacity Glocks, it larger in every dimension, quite significantly so in some areas. In fact, the M9 is even larger in every dimension to the 17-shot Glock 17, which carries two more shots. While the grip circumference is usually not listed as a measured specification, I believe string measurements I took years ago (around the frame and over the trigger) also confirmed a smaller grip size for the Glock 9mm pistols over the M9. The M9 is also heavier than either of the Glocks (empty weight).

            While the “G upgrade” (spring-loaded decocker which returns to the ready-to-fire position automatically when released) does solve the issue with inadvertent application of the safety during slide-release drills, it does so at the cost of losing several important features; namely, the ability to carry the weapon “on-safe” (the G model decocker cannot function as a safety, only a decocker), and the ability to load and unload the pistol with the safety applied.

            I am also unaware of any military M9 pistols being converted to 92G-model specifications for general issue/use.

          • Minuteman

            Didn’t Beretta include it on the A3 model?

          • DJ9r

            According to the article I just read, it comes with the dual-use safety/decocker as standard equipment, but it has the capability to be converted to a decocker-only G-model-style pistol by an armorer.

          • Minuteman

            Copy. Do you like the A3? Would you have considered it as the M9 replacement? It retains the same manual of arms etc. There’s no real need for Big Army and Corps to have a pistol, it’s more of a JSOC need. Same goes for MP. Outside that realm nobody really needs pistols.

          • DJ9r

            I think the Beretta M9A3 is probably the best of a dying breed, but if I had any input into the final decision, I’d kill all of them off — tomorrow. The level of training and practice needed to become a good-to-great-level defensive pistol shooter with a traditional DA/SA handgun is largely wasted effort now that we have so many good Glockish striker-fired pistols, or even SIG-DAK-style actions available. The DA/SA was a decent choice for old farts like me who were switching to autoloaders from revolvers, but now that the transition is complete (for police and military full-size service-style handguns), DA/SA pistols have absolutely no advantages at all over other more modern systems.

            I’m NOT saying that DA/SA pistols can’t be shot well; I’ve seen many folks do it, and I wasn’t a total slug myself, back in the day. But if you have the talent/skill/dedication to become good with a DA/SA auto, you’ll be great with a striker-fired or DAK pistol. If you’re already great with the DA/SA, you could be SUPERB with a striker/DAK gun. They are just easier to shoot better, or (alternatively) shoot equally well with less effort.

          • Minuteman

            Either way, pistols are a PITS and shouldn’t be that big of a deal. It’s just a hand gun. Your Rifle/Machine Gun/Mortar whatever is always your primary weapon. Pistols aren’t a high priority. I’d have taken a close look at the Rex Zero 1S as well btw. It’s a superb gun with a very small price tag. Kinda like the CZ P-10C. As far as SIG goes, that brand is a Has Been since 2004 as far as I’m concerned. Indian MIM parts don’t belong in a $1300 pistol. Just sayin’…

          • Minuteman

            Btw, as a fellow old fart I shoot DA/SA pistols by just going straight to SA mode, it’s a training issue. You can skip right over the long and heavy DA pull by cocking the hammer on the draw. The Rex Zero 1S allows for condition 1 carry akin to the 1911.

    • Don Ward

      Yes. Because the manual of arms of using a 1911 is so great and intuitive.

    • frankspeak

      when one shot counts!….and is all you may get……..

  • Minuteman

    No it shouldn’t. Theoretically DoD should have picked up the Wilson Combat Protector in .45 but that’s not feasible because of WC being a custom shop and not a large scale production oriented company. The contract should have gone to Lionheart Industries: LH9N MKII w/ Surefire X400 Ultra across the entire board. With Blade-Tech supplying the OWB Tac light holsters. There is no need for all this “modularity” crap. It’s just a hand gun replacement for Pete’s sake. A good GS RIFLE is far more important.

    • CommonSense23

      A 45 is what the DOD should have went with? Why?

      • iksnilol

        Because muh stoppin’ powah.

        • Quest

          Its not stopping, its the mighty knockdown powah! (which ignores all physics of newtons law, that magicly knocks down people even tough the firer doesnt notice any opposite effect, even tough recoil is stronger than impact due to accelerated powder)

        • AC97

          *gets thrown back 20 feet*

          • Quest

            .45 doubletap *gets thrown into orbit*

        • int19h

          Automag III in .30 Carbine.

          • iksnilol

            That can’t even go through a winter jacket outta a carbine.

        • Gary Kirk

          MOAR

      • Minuteman

        Because it will take out just about anything at close range. Pistols are close range defensive weapons. And that is where 45 really shines. Recoil is also more manageable because the 1911 is more of a straight back push. 45 is a slower travelling round and therefore easier on the wrist, as opposed to 9 which travels a lot faster and has more snappy recoil with the associated muzzle flip as a result. I find the 1911 super comfortable to shoot for that matter. It served our great grandfathers well so it’s good enough for us. Yes I’m biased, yes I’m an Old Proud Fart, yes I have my ego as well as emotionalism vested into the 1911. It is our hand gun, has a soul as well as historical significance. When they die, all 1911’s go to heaven.

        • CommonSense23

          And at least you are honest you are investing your ego into a tool. Google Tim Gramins if you think 45 stops people well. I have seen guys shot with 9mm and 45. Couldn’t tell the difference between the two. Every real world study has shown the same. Shot placement and capacity are king.
          The M1 Garand served well. Are you going to suggest we should go back to it.

          • Minuteman

            Oh I’m well aware of that. It’s just that our military abides by the Hague Convention that I’m suggesting 45. We ought to ignore it and just concentrate on our own game. If we just adopt 124gr Speer GDHP I’ll be perfectly ok with 9. Federal HST is also a viable option.

            The M1? No, that rifle is really past its prime and would be insufficient and too cumbersome for todays warfare which involves lots of cqb and close/mid range combat. 30-06 and 308 aren’t needed as the general service round.

          • CommonSense23

            If you think 45 is anything special you should Google Tim Gramins.

          • Ed

            Face it the main reason MHS went this far is because the need a smaller grip pistol for all the new small women Obama forced the military to make front line infantry men err Now people. Hope Pres Trump end this stupidity soon.

          • frankspeak

            works better in that open country of the afghan though…M-4 is pitiable by comparison…..

          • Minuteman

            Preparing for the last war? 😉

        • retfed

          And a Colt Navy served our great-grandfathers’ great-grandfathers well, so that should be good enough for us, right?
          You don’t like NATO, but NATO is the reality today, so that’s what we and you have to live with, whether we like it or not.
          The army tried to dump the 1911 twice, after each world war, but was stopped by money problems. The 1911 is heavy, low-capacity, complicated, and much more difficult to maintain than any modern pistol. The 9mm may or may not be adequate in FMJ; I don’t know. But when generals talk about “weight,” they’re not talking about 10 or 12 ounces per pistol; they’re talking about the weight of a planeload of ammunition. Since 9mm ammo is both smaller and lighter than .45 ACP, it’s easier to transport. The same plane can carry almost twice as much 9mm as .45.

          • Minuteman

            Hence my argument for the LH9N MKII….

          • retfed

            I don’t know anything about the P320 or the LH9N MKII, so I don’t have a dog in this fight (other than as a taxpayer). The P320 will probably work out and your choice probably would have, too. My bone to pick is with people who venerate an obsolete Taft-era weapon because it was once (believed to be) the best thing available.
            I’ve owned and shot 1911s and I carried them on and off duty for several years. They’re fun and useful, but they’ve been overtaken by modern technology.
            And I say this as a revolver-loving Luddite.

        • frankspeak

          proven track record!…and a great comfort when things go bump in the night……

          • Minuteman

            The 1911 basically does my talking. Wouldn’t mind an LH9N MKII either.

  • IN Dave

    A pistol is just a tool to get you to a real gun. I carry a glock and I really could care less about this decision. The army wanted modularity and glock couldn’t deliver. What do they expect.

    • MeaCulpa

      A pistol is just so you have some sort of safety blanket while you call on an artillery strike (partial sarcasm, you’re obviously spot on, pistol procurement is probably down around the same place as “two or three folded toilet paper” on the list of what makes a difference in the outcome of a war).

      • Nashvone

        My Grandfather, a WWII vet, passed along this bit of knowledge to me. “The purpose of a pistol is to cover your ass until you can get back to the rifle you never should have dropped.”

        • Joseph Goins

          But what happens when you were never issued a rifle to begin with? That covers more than 70% of the people who will be issued the pistol plus the MPs who can’t just go “rifle first” in every situation.

          • Amplified Heat

            They’re supposed to advance until they can pick up the rifle dropped by the one that got killed, duh; haven’t you seen Enemy at the Gates?

          • Joseph Goins

            No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. On a serious note, the battlefield pickup concept doesn’t always work.

          • Nashvone

            They should take what ever weapons they were issued and give them to the nearest Marine. He’ll protect them.

          • Joseph Goins

            I think you are missing the point. The mantra of “its the gun you use to get to the real gun” is pretty silly. Most of those issued a sidearm in military don’t have a rifle; the pistol is all they get. Think tankers, drivers, cooks, etc…

          • CommonSense23

            I have yet to see someone over seas without a rifle.

          • Sid Collins

            Then you need to get out more.

          • Joseph Goins

            You should go overseas more.

          • n0truscotsman

            I’ve never seen anybody deployed with only a sidearm. Thats retarded if that has ever occurred (and im sure it has).

            Most of the time, many second line personnel lock their rifles up and have just their sidearms on the FOB just for convenience.

            All military personnel deployed should be issued a carbine first. Period.

          • Joseph Goins

            It’s a historical practice that is slowly being rectified. In WW2, infantry had the full size M1 Garand which was about 44″ long. The military quickly found out that not everyone could keep that weapon close by, and they created a smaller version (M1 Carbine) with a different caliber for use with non-infantry troops. After the war, they learned that the back-end logistics of supplying 9MM, .38SPL, .45ACP, .30-06, and .30Carbine to the troops was exponentially more difficult than it needed to be. That is why they got rid of the Thompson, M1 Carbine, etc. in Vietnam when the full sized M16 was fielded. They forced everyone to use one rifle and one pistol (the 1911). It was deemed an “acceptable loss” if non-infantry troops were to only have a pistol if they couldn’t keep a 40″ rifle around. While special operations forces had the 10″ barreled CAR-15 and other similar weapons, the guns and ammo weren’t reliable enough for the military to study further. The Army changed its ammo and sought design input from Colt for a smaller M16, and they designed the 14.5″ barreled M4 that was 30″ long. It fired the same ammo from the same magazines while being short enough for helicopter pilots, vehicle drives, and tankers to store with them in their vehicles. It was so popular that it killed off the PDW concept and is slowly being adopted by the entire military for all troops regardless of their MOS or billet.

          • frankspeak

            buddy of mine had a “greaser” in his track up in the central highlands..

          • frankspeak

            grease guns?…carbines?….

      • Amplified Heat

        No kidding, I see this as beneath even the service timepiece competition, as far as meaningful importance to the average person using it. But I’ll bet the contract award to Casio or whomever wasn’t nearly this full of drama. All because of some dumb Norman-Rockwell style publicity shots that always feature the pistol (because it fits in the frame of a close-up better than a rifle) in recruiting ads.

  • Ed

    Depends on its caliber. If the Army goes with a new caliber than yes its worth it. If we stay with 9mm then this is a waste of time and money. Heck the M-9A3 should have won. But Flock is still military SOCOM uses them and the Flock series is more durable. Overall its still a wait and see in the new Trump era military on what ever will happen to MHS. Remember JSP 13 years ago.

  • This attitude is why it literally takes the FBI threatening to go to another pistol for Glock to update anything.

    If you let a company dominate the heap too long they will get stale. SIG learned this they went from being king of the Federal LE world to being a second rate player in the service pistol game.

    Now hopefully SIG doesn’t rest on their haunches and actually attempt to stay up with the market even though they have guaranteed income for the next couple of decades.

    • Joseph Smith

      Nope, I fully expect the Rainbow P320 to hit any day now 😉

      • Stephen Jakubowski

        Throwing my wallet at the screen

  • Paul White

    I’ve got the trots and think my rear is less sore than yours.

    They told *everyone* that they wanted a modular pistol. Apparently only one damn contractor read the bid requirements.

    • Pete – TFB Writer

      You are, of course, completely correct.

    • hhanan

      It’s largely a political decision, plus the girls at homeland security find the glock too ugly.

      • Amplified Heat

        Finger grooves are for Euro trash

        • iksnilol

          But finger grooves are an American import requirement. Not an European export requirement.

          • Bill

            Does anyone know anyone whose hands fit those grooves? I don’t.

          • Kivaari

            They fit me just perfect.

      • Grey Beard

        And the P2000 is a beauty queen?

      • frankspeak

        ugly…but purposeful!…

    • James Young

      It’s a bit surprising since the modular requirement has been known for so long

    • Lowe0

      Technically, Beretta also submitted a modular design. Just not one with any track record, or other calibers (yet), or full-scale production, etc..

      Being the incumbent probably hurt them as well; anything Beretta submitted would have been saddled with all of the negative baggage of the M9, without any of the positives. Probably should have taken the hint after the “why are you bothering us with this?” response the M9A3 received.

      • RyanC

        What negative baggage? That you could give a bunch of M9s to a group of 20 year olds in 1985 and that they’re still functional today despite being handled by three decades of 20-somethings who may or may not have taken care of the gun?

        • Lowe0

          Preaching to the choir. I didn’t say that the M9 deserved the slagging it gets; people still go on about a bad batch of slides from three decades ago.

          • Bill

            True. People are still doing the same thing with the AR platform and it’s been more than half a century since its bureaucratically induced teething pains.

    • David B

      Also, I thought that they were looking for a company that they could also source ammunition and suppressors from. I’m sure Glock could have made both of those, but sig is currently producing both.

    • Amplified Heat

      The intention was never for any contractor to conform to the requirements, the recs were the Army saying “We want a SIG, but federal laws require us to make it look like a competition.” I’m sure there was a lot of back-channel communication relaying this fact, which is why none of the other companies spent any time or money developing entries which conformed. Hell, FNH sent in the five-seven, probably as a not-so-subtle reminder of the last time NATO asked the industry to suit their whimsy, then changed their mind at the last minute to leave the ‘victor’ holding the bag.

      The truth will be in whether competitors challenge the outcome seriously (they’ll go round n round a couple of times for form’s sake regardless, so the procurement guys don’t lose their cushy jobs for a few more years)

      • Joseph Goins

        No, the FBI competition was done like that. Sig designed their entry around the Army specifications.

      • richard kluesek

        Well said. The end result was predetermined. And a maximum number of players are sharing spoils, Colt and FN got the M4, Glock has the local/state LEOs and Special Forces, S&W has some of the cops, now SiG will get the GI grunts and possibly the USMC and USN. Everyone else will scramble for the commercial market. Which Ruger remained positioned in, not bothering to compete.

      • frankspeak

        ouch!…

    • Joseph Goins

      You are completely misstating what the government wanted. They wanted either (A) a separate full size and compact size model or (B) one gun that could fill both roles. Glock rested on their laurels and delivered under the “separate gun” concept. Sig innovated and came up with a very unique concept that won the day. I guess # MakeAmericaGreatAgain also applies to gun design.

    • nova3930

      And yet I got slammed again and again for pointing that fact out. Every time I said the Glock didn’t meet the requirements I got all the stupid “BUT SF UNITS!” and “A G19 does everything perfectly” responses….

    • Bill

      Doesn’t matter how many read it when the fix was already in. SIG is getting their palms greased as an apology for losing the M11 all those years ago.

    • richard kluesek

      Any contemporary polymer striker fired pistol can be re engineered to make the frame a grip shell and construct a serialized subassembly combining the locking block, trigger, slide release lever and disassembly lever into a single drop in unit. SiG could go one better and fabricate the trigger with an internal blade safety as well. Glock Gen 5 is coming. I’m not anyon’es fanboy, I like service and snub revolvers, 1911s, metal 9mms and plastic wondernines equally.

      • El Mac

        Why in HE L L would SIG WANT to fabricate the trigger with a stupid dingus???

        • richard kluesek

          Thumbs up, but you misunderstand the remark, not saying that such a trigger with an internal safety blade would be needed, or useful, JUST that it could be done by a manufacturer to get the contract by satisfying a bureaucrat political correct numbers cruncher ignorant of pistolcraft. I have a Ruger SR9 that was recalled to replace the original conventional trigger with a glock copy. Satisfies the legal department in the Ruger ivory tower.

          • El Mac

            Ah, gotcha. I would have refused to send my Ruger in for that replacement crap. How do you like that SR9 anyway? Seemed like a solid gun when I handled one.

          • richard kluesek

            At the time we shooters did not know what Ruger had in mind and just went along with the recall. Other than that I like the gun, still have it. Grip is very ergonomic, feels good in the hand. 17 shot magazine. Slide / barrel length is about 4 inches and more streamilined than Glock. More or less a blend of a 17 lower with a 19 upper. Has a useless ambidextrous safety lever which I ignore. Have also eliminated the magazine disconnect safety, plenty of youtube ‘how to’ videos. This gun, the SR9E version, should have been submitted in the competition, it would have done well, maybe had a chance to win.

  • Should have been the Taurus Judge. That’s true modularity. Am I fighting snakes? Load up the shot shells. Am I fighting savages on horseback? Load up the 45 Colt shells.

    • Gary Kirk

      That’s not necessarily modularity.. But instead is versatility..

    • R H

      The Taurus Judge people: “It’s a shotgun, AND a pistol!!!! Just point and shoot! I load 1 shot shell, 1 45, 1 shot shell, 1 45, 1 shot shell….hell I dun lost count!”

  • iksnilol

    Do you need a safe space, comrade?

    • Pete – TFB Writer

      Yes please. Hold me.

      • iksnilol

        As long as we can cuddle and fall asleep…

        More than comrades 😉

        • Pete – TFB Writer

          It must get really cold up your way.

          • Gary Kirk

            He’s just hoping you can get him close to James R…

          • Pete – TFB Writer

            That was my first thought, actually.

          • iksnilol

            Shh, Grigory, do not spoil ze plan. We are so close now.

          • iksnilol

            It’s f***in Norway… what do you expect!?

            I have literally seen icicles in peoples beards.

          • Gary Kirk

            When the snotcicles reach the beard it’s cold.. In the mustache is normal

          • iksnilol

            It wasn’t snot.

          • Gary Kirk

            Wind blown precipitation then?.. Or were they too dumb to keep their face outta the horse trough??

          • iksnilol

            the former.

          • Gary Kirk

            Been there, done both.. Not proud……

          • LostVikingAllThing

            I’m in Montana, and I have a friend who is from Norway (now 100% ‘merikan) and he says Montana is like Norway but with more guns, more icicles and more bears. Montucky. We don’t have any badass viking stuff though. Montana needs viking stuff.

          • iksnilol

            Do y’all got man-eatin’ moose tho?

          • Gary Kirk

            Nah, they only have shira’s moose, kinda like large caribou.. Gotta go to Alaska for the man eaters.. But, then again, everything in Alaska will eat you..

          • john huscio

            Many Norwegian bachelor farmers settled Montana….

        • R H

          Comrades with benefits?!?

    • Bill

      That contract is some serious macro aggression.

  • Arandor Thinnorion

    Not everyone likes or prefers Glocks and they are not the sole reliable handgun on the planet. Believe it or not, there are some people for who Glocks are not the best choice.

    I personally have never liked shooting Glocks. But I did not grow a strong dislike for them until they became the “default” handgun. You are supposed to buy a Glock, period. No questions asked. If you buy anything else, someone will ask, “Why didn’t you buy a Glock?”

    A lot of great companies make a lot of different types of great handguns. Yet people somehow have the idea that Glock is the pinnacle one-size-fits-all handgun. I think the fact Glock sold them cheaply in massive amounts to police departments made people start believing they were the “right” gun for defense.

    Yet I know people who have owned and loved Glocks for 20 years and when they tried a different handgun, they switched immediately. They said they didn’t know shooting could be so enjoyable. And these were “I love Glock, you are supposed to get a Glock” type people. They sold their Glocks within a month and never looked back.

    Just realize there are a lot of great guns and there is no one-size-fits-all solution.

    I am not personally ecstatic about the SIG selection and I would not have been happy about a Glock selection.There are a couple of handguns I would have preferred they chose. But the SIG is a fine gun and I’m sure it will workout out well for them.

  • Dougboffl

    Thought I heard “needs an external manual safety” was another not-Glock requirement. Why? They get only a few weeks to train recruits and fewer to train them on the handgun. Can barely get muscle memory going that quick, so you can’t count on the newbee keeping their finger out of the trigger guard, and then the Glock trigger safety is a fail. External manual safety helps keep battlefield conditions/debris from creating unsafe conditions. The 1911 guys get it. Yes 9mm is not the best and I also understand the award has not selected caliber yet, very interesting, very! If you know, you know, you know you will go NATO 9mm why not say so, unless you might not go 9mm then you keep your mouth shut – hummmmmm. Modularity – think of it, your weapon needs trigger work – just drop in another one, just like when you field strip for cleaning. No need for an armorer the newbee can just swap stuff out.

  • Edeco

    Darn right! *powerfist*

  • Austin

    Opinion: WHIIIIIINE. That is all.

  • John

    Everyone sure gets worked up over the least significant weapon system the Army uses.

    The average user doesn’t care about the height of the bore axis, the grip angle, that it’s plastic, etc. It’s lighter than the M9 and fires when the trigger is pulled. What more do they really need?

    • Realist

      This…all .mil end-users care about is the weapon going BANG!

    • frankspeak

      weight is Huuuge!…just more to lug….

  • dienders

    I think this has an effect people are missing. Both the 1911 and the M9 were ragged on for years about being inaccurate craptastical pistols. Sig has a strong reputation for their accuracy. I hope they walk away winning.

    The adaptability is a big feature. But the hate of a thumb safety is complete bully crap. Let the market decide what they want, ask for adaptability, but don’t curse something for an external safety. We haven’t gotten rid of them on anything but a firearm you shove into your pants. I dig it either way, but my fro there are to have and not need. Like a 4×4 in Texas.

    • Gary Kirk

      Uhhhmmm.. When have 1911s or M9s been known for their inaccuracies??? That’s operator error if you’re having problems..

      • retfed

        The army bought its last 1911A1 during WWII. The Vietnam guys were carrying pistols that were made before they were born. If you read any stories written during the 60s by military pistoleros, they almost all talk about rattletrap 1911s that couldn’t hit a washtub at 20 yards.
        A new, tight 1911 is very accurate. One that has been subjected to 20 or more years of abuse and half-assed maintenance isn’t.

        • CapeMorgan

          People in all the services were still qualifying as experts with those same “rattletrap” 1911A’s in the 80’s and 90’s. I have no idea what you are talking about. Any handgun that has been abused and not maintained is probably going to have problems.

          • retfed

            I’m not arguing with you. I’m only stating what I read and what is the basis for the “1911s are inaccurate” meme. I’d be willing to bet that the guns the people were qualifying as expert with were not the guns that had been abused and poorly maintained for 20 or 30 years. Some armorers, like some animals, are more equal than others.
            And we’re talking apples and oranges; since the 60s were a time of war and the 80s and 90s weren’t, there was probably more time available to maintain, overhaul, and retrofit the pistols then in service. (That last sentence is an educated guess, based on my experience with bureaucracies.)
            Regardless of their accuracy or lack thereof, the 1911 is as obsolete today as the Garand.

        • frankspeak

          still does the job at 6ft!…

  • CyberRanger

    The external safety requirement should be renamed “the new lieutenant” requirement. If new LTs are shooting themselves & others in their platoon, we’ll soon be short on personnel. I love & prefer the Glock, but I also know LTs. I would not hand a new LT a Glock, unless it was unloaded.

  • Big Daddy

    I own 12 Glocks and no other semi-auto pistol, anymore. I have fired and have friends with the SIG 320. As a firearms enthusiast I support the decision of the Army, they made the correct choice.

  • Cody

    I like the juxtaposition of TFB having just posted a video about why the P320 is better than Glock. lol

    Glad to see you are walking the line of sarcasm so that the Glock fanboys think you are pulling for their old piece while those reading realize you are slipping in some nuance that the Glock actually should not have won.

    • iksnilol

      Umm… separate authors. Comrade Pyotr really is butthurt.

  • Gary Kirk

    Reading all these comments, the one thing no one is understanding is that the modular design is paramount to replacement of parts instead of the entire firearm.. The military is not going to let each individual user pick how they want their pistol configured. They will stock one configuration of parts, to replace anything that gets broken. But since the serial number is only in the fcg chassis they won’t have to go through the process of eliminating a firearm from DoD custody and proving it destroyed.. They can just drop the chassis in a new frame and put it back in service.

  • Tinkerer

    All this “Glock this” and “SIG that”, when we all know the contract should have gone to Hi-Point.

  • Mmmtacos

    Glock is the gun I love to hate and hate to love. After much deliberation for a larger carry piece (for when wardrobe allows) I begrudgingly settled on the Glock 19.

    The PX4 was so sexy. The P320 was attractive in modularity. The M&P I’ve always loved. Commander sized 1911s, CZs, FNPs, the list goes on. But the capacity, the size (oh the size, why others don’t do this size as much baffles me), the price, the after-market, the cheap magazines, the untold reliability, the low bore axis, the list goes on…

    I wanted to want something OTHER than the Glock 19 so bad. I wanted something different, something new.

    But alas, I settled on the Glock 19 at the end of the day. It just manages to be the most well-rounded of the bunch.

    • other options

      Try a Cz p07 perhaps? Original models shipped 16+1 (g19=15+1), currently 15+1 unless you buy older style mags. Measures close enough to not matter, weight is within a ounce or two, and has a way better trigger, slide in frame in traditional CZ fashion leaves a low bore axis, very reliable, can be had for a little under $500 most everywhere. The only two areas Glock beats the P07 to me are aftermarket and cheap mags. The aftermarket isn’t an issue to me, as I want a gun I like out of the box, not one I have to sink hundreds of dollars into aftermarket parts to perform equal to the competition (I’m looking at you 10/22). The major downside for me is the mags, they are still $40 ea since CZ is not letting Mecgar sell them yet. I know that I shoot it better than a Glock, not saying that everyone else would. The Grandpower pistols are something worth considering too. For striker guns, Walther has some options that are very competitive with Glock as well. These are just a few that I can think of that can go toe to toe with a G19, and in my opinion, win.

  • Martin frank

    “Gaston has focused on steady, calculated weapon evolution rather than spurts of revolution interspersed with setbacks” what a crock of poo. Gaston hasnt focused on anything, dudes a vegetable and the company has been hijacked by his gold digging nurse/wife so she can pay for her 15 million dollar horses. Dude rolled the dice and got lucky 30 years ago and you glock-suckers havent shut up since. To think that gaston is at the HQ designing anything is the biggest fantasy i’ve ever heard.

  • Martin frank

    More fake news on the internet.

  • Audie Bakerson

    Only reasonable reason to want such a thing is to build a “milspec” m17 without actual Glock parts from more makers.

  • SirOliverHumperdink

    Should have went with the Hi Point .45 and saved us all a TON of money.

  • BBMW

    I would point out that the 1911 was adopted after testing but with no extensive track record. That worked out pretty well.

  • James Reeves

    THIS OPINION IS CORRECT

  • Ark

    Mmmm, sweet fanboy tears!

  • DucksOutOfTheWay

    Strike One or bust

    >.>

    <.<

  • Jason Lewis

    It’s all dollars and lobbyist. We used Glocks for two decades then department “chose” the M&P over the Gen4 Glock. Now we have light primer strikes and rusting parts. The M&Ps sears have been breaking around the 20,000 round mark as well.

    • Noglocklaid for me

      I call BS. I have never heard of a police department where the average patrolman runs 20,000 rounds out of a gun, in their entire career, let alone a few years after a weapon switch. Most cops shoot their yearly and that is all. A lot of them do good to know what end is the business end. I also would be shocked that so many specimens of S&W, or any other maker would have that many weak striker springs. As far as rusting parts. I’m not saying S&W melonite is the end all finish that is rust proof, but it is certainly up to snuff if you half way maintain the weapon. Especially considering that the barrel and slide are stainless. You would have to be pretty poor at maintaining the pistol to rust it. You are right about it being all dollars, how do you think Glock got established in the LE market in the first place? They practically gave the damn things away to LEOs ala Apple, to build a customer base and reputation.

      • Jason Lewis

        Ok. I never said the average patrolman runs 20,000 rounds. Yep, I bet around 20% only shoot once a year at qualification. I’ve shot over 6,000 so far in mine and can say that light primer strikes occur albeit not that frequent. I don’t remember any in a Glock. Smith & Wesson told us that officers are likely over lubing the guns and its getting into the stiker assembly but I don’t think that’s the case. The rust has mostly come on the mags, mag springs and a couple internal parts. These issues were never a factor with Glock. The weapons that are breaking at 20,000 have been our instructors weapons. They log all the rounds they shoot daily with each weapon and they’re breaking sears around 20,000. The M&P isn’t a bad firearm but I think Glock is still better.

  • Blackhawk

    I’m not sure why the Army got rid of the .38 spl revolver . . .

  • Sledgecrowbar

    I want to like the polymer SIGs but my experience thus far, though limited, doesn’t sell me on them. I did like that the frame is replaceable, though not their idea originally it is definitely a good one, and something that other companies would do well to do more of. Glock being the Honda Civic of handguns is really the best choice for mass consumption by people who may or may not care about guns but may have to use one and need it to just work when that time comes. Not that any other striker-fired gun is unreliable, but Glock has the most mature design.

  • Harry’s Holsters

    Sarcasm or not I agree!

  • Gosh, I can’t imagine why the only truly modular design entry won a pistol competition that expressly required modularity. σ_σ

  • Don Ward

    Wrong.

    Did Glock offer a handgun with a manual safety? Did Glock offer a handgun where you didn’t have to pull the trigger to disassemble?

    No?

    Then Glock needed to lose.

  • Treiz

    Opinion, they should have gone with the M&P and not fell for this modularity nonsense.

  • Jack_A_Lope

    Of course you would say that…

  • borekfk
  • Frank Stratton

    Knew the glockids would check in. Problem is all this is BS. Been on both ends of killer bees flying around. Don’t care to catch any projectile. But as long as they are fmj would prefer to be launching bigger is bethere. I carried a 1911 for over 40yrs and have seen the difference. Have also had to use a 9mm. If I used better engineered ammo no problem. Participated in three different government tests in my lifetime. Also had to go head to head in the real world, not virtual reality.

  • Ski

    Wait… they didn’t even consider a 1911???

  • Joe

    Was your comment about no manual safety sarcasm, or lack of information?

  • Oldtrader3

    I knew it! The Glock Fan Boys are screaming?

  • DW

    “Gaston has focused on steady, calculated weapon evolution rather than spurts of revolution interspersed with setbacks. Frustrating for individual gun owners? You bet. But he knows that any misstep in reliability would leave a black mark on the Austrian handgun’s legacy.”
    >Gen4 launch
    >G17M launch
    No one is perfect and he is not God.

    • n0truscotsman

      Those are two examples of Glock changing what they shouldn’t have changed.

      Changes are a catch 22.

      • DW

        They could have gotten it right by just removing the fingergrooves and Nothing else, but that is not what happened. I don’t know why, and I bet true Glock fans that aren’t indoctrinated don’t know either.

        • n0truscotsman

          Get rid of the finger grooves, go with a RTF2-type texture, go back with the ‘old’ style extractor, go back to the ‘old’ style recoil spring. No need to reinvent the wheel.

  • Tom Currie

    Yes, Glocks have served LEOs for quite a while — which is how Glock earned the distinction of having shot more LEOs in the leg than any other firearm. There is a reason the Army didn’t select a single action pistol with no manual safety and a solid reputation for enabling clumsy poorly trained professionals to shoot themselves while holstering.

    This Glock Fanboy editorial reminds be of our snowflake friends who still haven’t accepted that Hillary lost the election.

  • Joseph Goins

    What is article is really saying is that companies shouldn’t innovate to make the next, best product because a company came out with a groundbreaking design decades ago that still works. It’s pretty similar to a 1911 guy arguing that the military didn’t need to switch in the first place because Browning created an amazing gun.

  • Amplified Heat

    Please. If the .gov had picked Glock, we’d all be choking to death on the smug coming off you fanboys by now…

  • n0truscotsman

    IMO they should have, although, arguably, the *best* solution is to not replace the Beretta at all since its a fine sidearm for military use.

    With Glock, you get a name thats proven among military and law enforcement both inside and outside the US. Certain units have used them for a good reason: functionality.

    With the P320, its more of a crap shoot, although it seems like a decent design on paper (heh).

    Whatever handgun the Army adopted, they still wont address the training issue, which is a bigger problem than any supposed limitations of the M9 beretta. Stupid.

    • Joseph Goins

      The M9s aren’t bad weapons. The maintenance is terrible because they keep rebuilding the frames beyond what they really should. I wager to say that the chassis system of the P320 with its ability to change the frame was a real plus.

      • n0truscotsman

        Probably. Im not the most objective person about this subject either since I have a dislike for SIG in general (except the olderstuff).

        Im hoping the P320 will actually turn out to be a respectable handgun, for the sake of the people intending to use it.

  • Paul Strickland

    I can’t speak on the Glock but I have been shooting a 320 compact, 9mm for about a year (about a 1000 rds). And a 320 subcompact for about six months. I have found these guns to be exceptional shooters and amazingly easy to work on. My shooting buddy just picked up the new 320 RX and I’m already drooling over the new X5. Light, fast, accurate and I picked up my subcompact for $480.00….what’s not to like?

  • n0truscotsman

    I agree. and when in the hell did we acquiesce to this idea that “oh they’re poorly trained” anyways? Its asinine.

  • Gambler X

    Glock fanboy drivel. If you’d bothered to read “Glock: Rise of America’s Gun” you’d know exactly why they werent selected. Gaston is shady and doesnt want to surrender the technical information the DoD wants.

    • n0truscotsman

      Why should he? the DOD has previously demonstrated they have no respect whatsoever for patents or independent developers. Read about the OCP/UCP uniform debacle sometime. Or anything pertaining to OCIE.

      • Gambler X

        Not the point. The point is, they didnt submit the info, they didnt win the contract, so dont complain that they didnt win.

        • n0truscotsman

          I am a taxpayer and spent an entire active duty career dealing with training issues regarding firearms, handguns in particular. So dont think you’re in a position to tell me not to complain.

          • Gambler X

            here we go with the pissing contest….

  • Jeffrey Dees

    Honestly I think it was the right choice. Granted, I will give the Glock its merits of simplicity, reliability, and a long track record, but Sig Sauer did modify their pistol to best fit the requirements, and the ability to swap their trigger pack to a compact or full size frame and slide is what I think gave them the edge. Combined with ambidextrous control surfaces (which for me as a southpaw is a blessing) makes it a winner in my book. And while people can complain about having a manual safety still, I’m on board with it simply because I have seen enough junior enlisted/NCO’s/officers that had little to no firearms training beyond what was given to them at basic, and between the flagging other people and terrible trigger discipline I believe its another safety feature that can keep me from having to deal with someone performing a ND next to me. Course I’m in a POG unit so I’m sure combat arms doesn’t have any of those issues and have a right to complain about safeties.

  • Geoffrey Danger Hoffman

    Hate to say it, but won’t the M17 have a manual safety hacked in? I think that was one of the requirements. So you’ll still have to deal with them.

    Another reason the choice is strange, though: the safety on the P320 will be a brand new feature.

  • Marc

    Being older is not a quality of its own.

  • Geoff Timm

    By that logic we should buy new 1911s. Geoff Who notes Glock hasn’t been on the leading edge of firearms design since the initial G17, which they have been resting on with only minor changes and some of them not good.

  • iksnilol

    Not our fault you have a low grip.

    • SomeRandomGuy

      Pretty sure that’s intentional so the outcurve of each gun’s beavertail is visible.

      • iksnilol

        Nah, you’re supposd to jab the beavertail into your hand. To extend your reach slightly.

  • CommonSense23

    I’m sorry wear exactly are we going to find recruits who have knowledge of current TTPs from

    • Minuteman

      Just retain all old sweat for a while and get rid of the youngsters. There’s a reason why SOCOM less the Rangers uses older personnel. Same goes for PMC’s. You win nothing with kids for they don’t have the experience, stress resistance and insights needed for effective soldiering. The only thing they can do is probably run a little faster and a bit longer, but that’s about it. You wanna trim the military? Retain your cadre and throw out a whole lot of <E-4 [as well as Guardsmen and Reserves because most of them are desk jockeys anyway and they work with old equipment, and replace uniforms where they aren't needed, swapping them for civies who can fill these jobs just as good: medical, forces command, admin, catering, base logistics etc]. We've got more than enough <E-4. The drill is to stop recruiting for a while and 'freeze' the entire organization. We aren't going to war anytime soon, so there's no need for 100% manning at all. Not with a debt of 20 darn trillion! But anyway, we're not here to discuss military matters. I'd like to stick to fire arms. So back on: There wasn't really any reason to get rid of the M9 unless they were simply worn out. In that case I'd replace them with the LH9N MKII. That's all I have to say about it.

    • Minuteman

      Something happened with my post earlier, I rectified it so it is actually readable now.

  • Patrick K Martin

    Glock, so perfect we have only changed it 4 times!

  • Sid Collins

    Because more US service members are being issued handguns now. Update your mindset people. During current deployments, more service members are being issued handguns because of the green-on-blue risks and the need to be armed when just moving around. I am far too familiar with trying to carry a plate of food with an M203, M249, or M60/240 than most. It is a pain in the ass. There is no good reason why every service member is not armed with a handgun during a deployment. So knock it off with this keyboard warrior bullshit about handguns being what you use until you get to your rifle.

  • imtoomuch

    This truly is a fanboy post and nothing more. I expect stupid articles like this from TTAG, but I thought TFB was better. Apparently not.

    Glocks aren’t the only game in town anymore. They are reliable, but that is the only thing they have going for them. The funny thing is there are other polymer, striker-fired guns that are equally reliable. But the reason the competition is better is because the Glock triggers are junk, they have the worst ergonomics, the grip angle is horrible and they are butt ugly. Finger grooves automatically make guns not fit certain people. I’m pretty sure the government bid gun didn’t have finger grooves for that very reason. You can be as closed minded and fanboyish as you want to, but these things DO affect shooting. It’s asinine to say that stuff doesn’t matter. It’s NOT smokescreen and you know it. If you don’t you’re either a blind fanboy or you’re lying to yourself.

    • n0truscotsman
      • imtoomuch

        Couldn’t you even muster up an intelligent rebuttal in a civil conversation? Yours is just a troll response. Nothing I said is untrue.

        • n0truscotsman

          Everything you said is subjective, and opinion based. Ill offer my rebuttal

          1.) Glock triggers are consistent and easy to replace. And while they’re not 1911-grade, they’re quite acceptable by combat handgun standards. Their consistent 5 lbs and reset made them popular to begin with in the 80s, compared to Smith sem-autos.

          2.) The grip angle is a non-existent issue, and that complaint is often derived from inexperienced users.

          3.) Ergonomics are like the trigger, acceptable by combat handgun standards, but not race-gun standards. So what? I agree that M&P, Walther, and other modern striker fired handguns are better in that regard.

          4.) “ugly” is irrelevant and has no bearing on the functionality of the handgun to begin with. Combat handguns are supposed to shoot bullets reliably, not serve as showpieces for your gun show buddies.

          5.) “but these things DO affect shooting”

          To a degree they do, but most users do not utilize the accuracy of the handgun to its full potential. The military certainly didn’t with the M9 with the exception of special operations and the AMU.

          The reasons why Glock deserves criticism is the gen 4 roll out, changing the extractor design/composition, changing the recoil spring, and Glock’s general reluctance to incorporate user input.

    • DW

      How and why didn’t you catch the sarcasm in the article

      • Pete – TFB Writer

        Good gracious. Thank you. Internets is serious business.

    • Pete – TFB Writer

      Dude. Decaf. You were supposed to laugh AND disagree with me.

      • frankspeak

        much ado about nothing…pistols don’t win battles..[Alvin York, aside..]….can save your ass though….

  • The 420 is that much better at fitting a large range of hand sizes.

    • Out of the Blue

      I didn’t know that Sig made a stoner model. Unless you hit the 4 key by mistake.

  • Jim Graham

    I think either would have made an excellent replacement. While modularity is what most are talking about, don’t discount the fact that Sig has moved 100% of their manufacturing to the US. I think that was a brilliant move intended to give Sig a little bump with the generals and paper pushers.

  • spycrab421

    I personally would’ve loved it if they had gone with the CZ P-09, but that’s just me

    • czzzz

      Me too. Love my Czs. However, I don’t think the average recruit can shoot a pistol well enough to benefit from what the CZ had to offer over the other offerings. The p09 19+1 capacity could have been useful though. I’m kind of glad it didn’t win though. That would mean that CZ would have to build a factory here to build them. I don’t want my Czs made here. I’m afraid that would have been the result once CZ built a factory in the US.

  • Aaron White

    Glock didn’t meet the requirements the DOD set. Its that simple. The 320 is as reliable as any other gun. Most importantly you don’t have to pull the trigger to break it down. That is a design flaw.

  • Oh don’t get me wrong, only a few guns do I have any real money invested in (like multiple holsters, multiple configurations, tons of magazines, et al). Others I might have a single example, a holster and 3-4 magazines.

    And even then I clear out thing when I switch. Of the guns I’ve run for an extended period, only the primary stays in my safe. I typically sell the back up guns, as those fetch the most money.

  • adverse4

    Don’t much care what the US Military carries.

  • vietvet656667

    This s the kind of info that should be sent to Donald Trump ,Gov waste !
    I don’t know how to do it but some of you young fellows out there should know !

  • Anonymoose

    YOU LOST! GOOD DAY, SIR!

  • Thomas Moeller

    And the 1911 had been on the market for how long before the Army adopted it?

  • Alex

    Sorry Snowflakes, Glock is generally, a “take it or leave it” proposition, the military wants a manual thumb safety, Glock refuses. If your a civilian that enjoys putting a hole in their leg, with a 3# triggered, short length of trigger pull handgun, Glock is your gun. The military refuses to be bullied by a Austrian, egotist, no matter how many Kool-Aid drinkers he has in tow.

    • retfed

      Three-pound trigger? Glock’s own website shows the standard trigger pull as 5.5 lbs.
      It’s your privilege to not like Glocks (or broccoli), but dude! As the saying goes, you’re entitled to your own opinion, but you’re not entitled to your own facts.
      (But maybe you’re just living in the past. When the Glock first came out, the standard trigger pull was in fact 3.5 lbs., and the “New York” trigger raised the pull to the 5.5 that’s standard today. [It was demanded by the NYSP, not NYPD]. So I can’t be too mad at you.)

  • Seth Hill

    “Yes. I get it. Modularity.”

    You spout every reason for Glock, yet you ignore the fact that Glocks are not modular. What was the name of the program that was used to replace the M9? XM17 Modular Handgun System Contract. So no, you don’t get it.

  • Pagunguy

    I hope the Army has chosen the best pistol for the troops. But after reading exerts from the specification for the new modular pistol it was clear this was written to make Sig the winner before the trials started. I have nothing against Sig and have carried one in the past, and I am a Glock fan. But that spec was written to make Sig the winner.

  • CW

    Glocks are for purses, not combat! Not everyone is a fan of plastic toys made be Mattel, most of us have grown up. Long live the 1911!

    • frankspeak

      and the M16?…

  • leewardboy

    I generally agree the Glock is more than adequate. Before anyone gets on my case – I don’t care for Glocks. I’ve tried my friend’s Glock and found it an easy to shoot pistol but I preferred my XD Compact .45 and my 1911s. XD is gone now as I’m downsizing as I age.
    The Glock is reliable, fairly inexpensive and just plain works. Pistols are defensive weapons – always will be. Military use of pistols is very much as a secondary or SHTF weapon for when things go south. Lightweight and reliability are the most important factors in choice of pistols. For general issue – cost is also a factor. I consider the polymer handguns as almost being a disposable item. I don’t get the whole modular concept for something that – IMHO – rarely gets used.

  • Kafir1911

    GET OVER IT already. The Army should never have been carrying M9s. The Sig Sauer should have been chosen back when. Life is unfair to us sometimes. And Glock has had their fair share of bad times. Remember the problems with the G4? And if I am being told correctly they are still having problems. Anyway my thoughts to go with my 4 or 5 Glocks and 4 or 5 Sigs.

  • Joseph Rivers

    Well, the P320 is my favourite handgun of all time, so I beg to differ. The fact that the P320, a newer design, was chosen without the years of running and gunning, is a testament to how amazing the P320 is. My only unhappiness is due to the possibility that this causes the price of the P320 to go up…

  • ToddB

    I have known a few glock fans, and usually according to them the glock is the height of handgun technology and will never be surpassed well unless Glock comes out something better. Its almost a cult, had a friend his opinion was, they should only sell glocks, anything else was junk. The military said it had to have an external safety, glock gave them…a glock. Military said it had to have changeable grip panels, glock presented…the glock. You dont tell glock what you want, they sell you what they want you to buy. And that wasnt what the US military wanted.

  • El Mac

    I’m darned glad Army didn’t go with Glunk. Thank you SIG and thank you Army.

  • Bad Penguin

    Why is it that people will jump at new tech rifles but fight tooth and nail against new tech pistols? The new pistol doesn’t do anything the glock doesn’t do which is true but the glock doesn’t do anything the 1911 doesn’t do – spit bullets out. In a few years soldiers will start preferring the Sigs and after I’m dead they will be going through this again.
    Now I wonder how many soldiers will be shooting themselves in the leg or foot because they cant keep their bugger pickers off the trigger.

    • CommonSense23

      How exactly are they going to have more NDs with a 320 than a M9?

      • Bad Penguin

        Easy, A M9 has a double action trigger pull of 12-13 lbs and a single action pull of 5-7 lbs. Even if you cant keep your finger out of the trigger well, a 12 lb pull will keep you from having NDs when you are drawing your weapon.

        The NYPD had a lot of NDs the first year they had Glocks which have a 7 lb trigger and are hammerless. NYC sued and had 12 lb triggers put on them to stop the NDs and now the safest place to be is in front of the perp in a shootout.

        Soldiers arent allowed to train much with their firearms especially pistols which opens the door to ND’s with striker pistols with no external safeties.

  • teesquare

    I have nothing against Glock. Have owned several.
    But it is NOT “THE” choice.Sorry Glock fan-boys….
    If the DOD were to follow a logic driven protocol – then the Springfield xD or xDM would be the obvious choice for ONE factual reason: It is the only sidearm to pass the 50,000 fires without any malfunction.
    After all – nothing matters if when you squeeze the trigger, there is no bang!

  • mike

    What an incredible waste of money and resources. Vets are dying and the M9 with its supply chain which is an excellent weapon is being replaced completely instead of some older pistols replaced. Keep M9 and give money to VA

    • frankspeak

      no “pork” in that!…..

  • Charles Valenzuela

    I was surprised by the selection of ANY striker pistol, but if they felt that they just HAD to have one then I am glad they chose Sig. I wouldn’t have a Glock as a gift. Seriously.

  • Libertarian in 2016

    I carried Glocks the last ten years I was with the government. (Only because they came with a rail and I had no satisfactory way to hang a light on my 645.) I shoot them well and they’re extremely reliable. I still don’t like them.

    The P320 seems to have a better trigger than the Glock (low bar) and, despite your protestation, the grip to barrel angle is hugely better.

  • GetFactsBeforeFormingOpinions

    I’m more upset about 9mm vs .45 (oh my God he didn’t go there!!!) than the brand of pistol. I’m sure the Sigs will do well, but you are correct. And I don’t carry a Glock or a Sig. I own both and they are both great. I prefer the 1911 – because I’m old and learned/trained with one, but you could make the same exact argument with 9 vs 45 for military use.

    • frankspeak

      when one shot counts…and may be all you get…

      • frankspeak

        went back and revisited “saving private ryan”…where the sarge and a german exchange pistol shots…sarge walked away..(for a while)..german went down and stayed there!….

  • Craig Kendall

    Wouldn’t it be nice if American military personnel utilized equipment from American companies?

    • Steve H

      I agree… That is, if the equipment is up to par.

      • frankspeak

        too many army officers drive foreign cars!….

    • BigR

      Craig, it would be nice! But companies like Fabrique Nationale, who made high quality firearms for Browning for years, that were some of the best in the world. I think they even opened a manufacturing plant in the US to accommodate local workers in the last few years. As long as they are manufacturing guns in America, and creating jobs, I see nothing wrong with buying their products. I’m sure some other foreign gun makers have done/will do the same to tap our market. Most of the European countries, don’t have a 2nd amendment, so it makes sense to expand business to the “Land of the Free”!!! So, they scratch our back and we scratch theirs, and everybody’s happy!

      • Craig Kendall

        Hi RigR,
        Perhaps my thinking is flawed. To me, it is more than manufacturing jobs. As a stockholder, I would like to see out American companies benefit as well. Are we enriching countries with whom we were at war a short time ago?
        What if the US became embroiled in a foreign conflict that the German or Austrian governments disagreed with? Could they decide to pull the plug? Likely? No.
        All the best!

        • BigR

          Naw, you’re thinking isn’t flawed! You made a good point. During WWII, the NAZI’s invaded Belgium, Czechoslovakia, and some of the high countries and took over their gun manufacturing plants and forced them to produce weapons for the Wehrmact. I believe in America first, but those old Belgians made some beautiful guns back then, and I’ve got a few of them. BUT,,,,,If it ever happens again, and an enemy country takes over surrounding countries and tries the same thing, I would rather we had access to some of their machines that are manufacturing over here. Great comeback on your part though.

          It’s kind of like OIL in the middle east, I’d rather suck all their oil out of the ground, and save ours for when theirs runs out…think about it, we’ll rule the world, because we’ll still have oil, ’til we find an alternative, and they’ll be using horses again.

          • frankspeak

            we’d just steal their designs…like we did with the ’03 springfield.and the 1917 bmg….

  • tarnishedcopper

    My preference would not be for a polymer firearm in day-to-day combat operations with heavy firing use. Remember the frame-chipping stories about the alloy Beretta frames when range officers would put out as many of them as they had firing positions and use them continuously for months on end like the used to do with 1911s? Don’t get me wrong, I own a Beretta 92 I carried for over 20 years on duty and also Sigs and a few XD’s, just wonder if the polymer-framed Glock would survive continued everyday firing.

  • Old Vet

    I have never caught onto the just plain bulky ugly looks of Sigs…..sorry guys.

    • El Mac

      There is no uglier pistol made than Glock.

      • Old Vet

        Don’t get me wrong, even a Glock owner like me will agree with that too, so maybe it is just the bulky look??

      • Alex Yamach

        There is beauty in function.

        That’s why I always thought an A-10 Warthog circling above was a beautiful sight.

        • El Mac

          There is beauty in function. But I don’t know many guys that would prefer a fat chick over a svelte model when they both can perform equally well the same feat. Glock’s day has come and gone. The ship sailed….

          • frankspeak

            so now we’re pickin’ a pistol for looks?????????

        • BigR

          I agree!!!!! The “Warthog” IS a beautiful weapon system!

          • El Mac

            Yes it is. Unlike the Glunk.

      • 2ThinkN_Do2

        Sure there is, actually quite a few; but as we know, beauty is in the eyes the beholder. The 320 is actually decent looking, at least without the dumb notched extension mag. It should’ve had a smooth curve back to flow into the backstrap of the grip. Glocks are just blocks, not ugly, just no style.

        • frankspeak

          form follows function…

  • Mirkwood Mage

    The G-3 is as obsolete as a DI AR-15. People bash the Glock, but so far, no one can imitate the low bore axis, size, and mag cap of the G19. All these new pistols w compact and full sized pistols are either too big or too small.

    • El Mac

      Well now….that is wrong on so many levels.

    • CommonSense23

      How exactly is the AR15 obsolete?

  • JamesDrouin

    A striker fired handgun … what could go wrong???

  • Cary Starke

    I think the Wather PPQ M2 in 9 or 40 caliber should have been in the running. Suppress it in 9 and a 5″ barrel .

  • machgman

    The real meaning of “modularity” is Glock still refused to install a thumb safety on their guns (ingenious solution to a non-existing problem).

    That, plus Glock’s well known policy of refusing to pad their prices to include golden parachute bribes for the Army Staff-pussies involved made it easy for the Army Brass to pick Sig. The humongous inflated pricetag for the Sigs that are being proudly bandied about by the Army Brass reflects that their personal financial objective is almost achieved.

    Just recall the Special Ops General who stated he could outfit the entire US Military with Glocks and inventory support parts for $17 Million? That is the real cost of the guns and the Army Brass procurement numbers reflect the bribes that the Obama Brass are looking for.

    It is with no coincidence that this overpriced, grossly inflated procurement process was quickly concluded by Obama’s Generals and staff just as Trump takes office.

    We are being taken again for fools. The Millions Obama secretly sent the Palestinians as he slithered and crept out of the White House are nothing compared to the corrupt budget and cost overruns he gladly allowed to go on with other Federal procurements while he was in the WH and robbing us and the USA.

  • ckeltz3

    “WHAAAAAAAAAA………Glock lost!”
    Yeah, I’ll be losing a lot of sleep over THAT.
    I own 5 different Glocks and 3 different P320’s.
    I served 6 years in the Army, then 25 years as a street cop.
    The Sig is a better pistol.
    Get over it.

  • Craig Nordgren

    This is funny. I have owned 3 Glocks. The only one I trusted as reliable was the G26. It performed 100%. Neither of the G17s were worth keeping as they were ammo finicky and had only average accuracy. One broke a slide release lever and extractor. All were stock and fed quality ammo. When a pistol malfunctions on quality factory ammo that runs fine in other guns, it is time to move on. I noticed similar issues with other officers’ Glocks when training at the range. It wasn’t just my pistols.

    I also have 3 SIG P320s. Two have never malfunctioned and one did a couple of times with reloads when I was experimenting with lighter weight recoil springs. These malfunctions were on me and stopped when I put the stock spring back in.

    I got rid of the G26 eventually as well.

  • Wingbert

    A Sig is just like a Glock but terrible

  • Stephen Paraski

    At a little over $200 a pop for the Sigs, looka “responsible spending” to Tax Payers. I carried a Combat Commander on streets of Detroit as personal back up in 90s. But have come to like the Glock 21 Gen 1 I got from another local Agency when they upgraded. Mags marked Military and LEO only. I think Sig, besides the price, was the safety.

  • Rocketman

    I don’t own a Sig at all but I have a Glock 19. Under combat conditions I know that my 19 is going to hold up because it has the reliability of the AK-47 to take abuse. If the Sig doesn’t cut it then American lives will be lost.

    • El Mac

      Ah we have a twofer! The myth of the AK and the myth of the G19.

      • Richard Lutz

        Would use rather have a Glock 19 and Sako M95 (RK 95 TP) or a SIG P320 and SIGM400 in a SHTF situation?

        • El Mac

          I would prefer to have my own pistol and rifle.

          • Richard Lutz

            Your evasive answer suggests that you accept the premise that Glocks and AKs like the M95 are better than SIGs.

    • frankspeak

      stuck a laser max in a sig..and it began to malfunction immediately …did the same to a glock…and it worked just fine….

  • Mikial

    I would have gone with the Glock as I have since 2001, including carrying a G17 in Iraq on one of my contracts. However, the US Army knows its troops aren’t all that experienced or well trained with a handgun, so an external safety was a mandatory component of the new sidearm. Hence, the Sig with an external safety won. So be it. It’s a great gun and will serve the troops well.

  • midnitelamp

    what do they need with that many pistols of any kind?

  • Richard Lutz

    Better of with M9A3

    The P320 lacks consistency. Namely that a soldier may train with one optimized for him or her with a left side magazine release and a small grip, but will be unfamiliar with the same pistol with a right side magazine release and a medium or large grip.

    The P320 is also renowned for light strikes that fail to detonate hard primers like those commonly found on mil-spec ammunition. It is nowhere near as proven as the Glocks like those used by many armed forces and has a clothing grabbing rail.

    The US Army should adopt the Gen3 Glock 19 adopted by the US Navy SEALs in 2015, and if it refuses to do so willingly should be forced to do so by the Secretary of Defense. The US Army was much better off with the M9A3 than the P320.

  • Warrior24_7

    Everyone knows why, the safety is in the trigger. That Sig better be tough because it’s going to get beat up.

    • Richard Lutz

      No need to worry about using the P320 trigger as a shelf to rest your finger or be concerned generally about where you put your trigger finger as this pistol has a safety catch that will prevent an accidental discharge… BANG!

  • Core

    Opinions are like.. I disagree completely. SIG has been around for a while. My first memories are local police officers carrying Berettas and SIGs. I remember more than a few Sheriff’s carrying revolvers. The first Glock looked like a laser tag pistol, and they haven’t changed much since.. SIG has produced more development and utilized more technologies by far than Glock. I agree that Glock works for cops. I’m very happy SIG was chosen. The Navy has been using SIG for some time, as well as many other branches for special purpose use. SIG has produced a successful modular handgun, with a proven track record of success in build quality and fieldability. That’s not to say they won’t encounter issues, but SIG can definitely work it out if necessary. SIG produces guns that shine out of the box with proven reliability, and Glocks also, yet Glock users are compelled to change everything about them. For this reason I’m convinced SIG is the right decision. Our troops don’t have the luxury of stippling the frames of Glocks, replacing triggers, and doing slide work. Glocks have not reached perfection, they need more ergonomic frames, better slides, better triggers, safety issues, and a lack of adopting standardized features which could lead to costing lots of tax dollars trying to chase the dragon so to speak.. For this reason I’m out.

  • BeenThereDoneThat

    When the Glock was first introduced, it was given the adjective/motto “Perfection”. In the many years since then why and how could they IMPROVE ON PERFECTION??? In fact, a couple of those “improvements” back fired. Why take a recoil spring assembly from three parts (spring, guide rod, e-clip) that was working just fine to a modular who knows how many parts in the current assembly and causing untold issues recently! Perfection is relative!

  • Dave Biggers

    This is not over yet. This is a case of the procurement office holding on to their power. SF, Rangers and MARSOC already use the “G”.

  • Chuckwagon524

    Glock no doubt makes a reliable handgun, but they feel like holding a brick in the hand. The Sig with its modular grip system and better ergonomics probably was one of the reasons it won out. As the military has to fit it’s weapons to wide variety of people. From women to very large men. A pistol that feels and fits better will always be better on the range or battlefield.

  • Don’tBASucker

    Funny stuff

    “Save me your ‘hand grenade’ and grip angle jabs – that’s a smoke screen and you know it”

    So according to this guy…

    -pointing out what he believes are shortcomings of the 320 = proof
    -pointing out what others believe are shortcoming of the Glock = mindlesss hater

    let us not forget that Glock triggers are the ‘Standard’ that we all look to when describing how BAD a trigger can be….(pardon me while i lovingly glance at my 1911)

    even $300 Canik TP9 triggers SPANK the Tenifer off a Glock

  • Tango Down

    Glock is merely Tactical Tupperware! I will admit that even as a SIG devotee for decades, I was rather shocked that they chose the P320 when the P229 was a better choice as it’s been tried and true for a longer period of time and is carried by more LE and federal agencies world wide. Granted the P229 does not have the required safety that was part of the specs and SIG reworked the P320 to carry a safety, something I personal loath!

    Overall, though the P320 is a polymer pistol, something I loath more than a mechanical safety, itis still a SIG Sauer and is from the best pistol company out there.

  • frankspeak

    let’s not be naive here…weapon selection has always been influenced by a number of factors..especially pistols…the notion that someone is being “greased”..is not without merit!

  • frankspeak

    when I worked next to the federal reserve..(aka: “deep pockets”)…they had benelli shotguns,..MP5’s…and glock 21’s….nothing but the best!….

  • James Madison

    Glock 19 for Rangers, SF, SEALs, Force Recon and MARSOC. Sig P320 for big army.

    So the guys that may actually use their pistol (and actually KNOW how to use a pistol) in combat get the right gun.

  • Mike Crews

    bottom line it was all about cost at 199. per gun that’s why they got the contract.