The US Army’s Next Gun: SIG’s P320 Compact MHS | SHOT 17

Today, the news broke that SIG USA has become the winner of the United States Army’s Modular Handgun System contract, making its P320 handgun the next standard issue sidearm for the United States armed forces. The new pistol, to be designated “M17”, is a smaller, lighter, more adaptable handgun than the US Army’s aging M9, made by Beretta.

Related: SIG P320 Selected as new US Army Handgun.

At the 2017 SHOT Show, SIG’s representaives were very aware of their win of the $500 million dollar contract, but all remained tight-lipped as SIG’s officers retired to the back room of their booth to iron out a statement about the victory, to be released later. When asked, SIG reps replied with various forms of “no comment”. All that they would tell TFB was that the manual safety model of their P320 Compact model was the closest firearm on the showroom floor to the weapon submitted to MHS, which squares with an earlier article by Soldier Systems that covers their submission. We, of course, grabbed photos of the pistol as well as the growing reaction to the news at SIG’s booth.

Stay tuned to The Firearm Blog, we will be updating this story as it develops, including when they make their announcement about their victory in the MHS competition.





Nathaniel F

Nathaniel is a history enthusiast and firearms hobbyist whose primary interest lies in military small arms technological developments beginning with the smokeless powder era. In addition to contributing to The Firearm Blog, he runs 196,800 Revolutions Per Minute, a blog devoted to modern small arms design and theory. He is also the author of the original web serial Heartblood, which is being updated and edited regularly. He can be reached via email at nathaniel.f@staff.thefirearmblog.com.


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  • John Bear Ross

    Hell to the yeah.

  • KestrelBike

    Meh, had hoped it would be Glock. Oh well.

    • rklk

      maybe the army will hand their m9s down

      • Dr. Longfellow Buchenrad

        From what Ive heard they are pretty worn out, but to be optimistic that just means they will be cheap. Id still get one or two. I was still really excited about the temporary prospect about being able to get a worn out 1911.

        If someone who has use one recently could chime in about how bad they really are that would be nice.

        • Anon. E Maus

          I’ve heard some nightmare stories.
          The impression I get is that these are simply not guns you’ll want, that they’ll be better off being broken down for parts.

    • The USCG buys many of their guns off of DHS contracts. So they will likely won’t change.

      But I think there is a Federal LE contract for the P320, so they could potentially buy off of that contract.

      The other services could buy off of the Army contract.

    • ARCNA442

      I believe this is technically a joint Army-Air Force program and the Navy/Marines tend to follow the Army’s lead when it comes to small arms.

    • Joshua

      It’s up in the air, but a lot of people were watching this in hopes to get in on the contract.

    • Kivaari

      With the end date of 2027 I suspect the M9 will be around for a long time. It will likely serve another 30 years in the guard/reserves.

    • Cuvie

      The Marines are sticking with the M9/M9A1 until the mid 2020s at the earliest

    • Rodney Jenkins

      The P320 is better than the glock in almost every way…Trigger, sights, grip angle, ect……..

  • rklk

    GG boyz

  • Yay! Now Sig just needs to fix the issues shooting the P320 with a suppressor.

    • JumpIf NotZero

      What issue? Slow cycling? (Just like VP9, lik PPQ)

      • Factory P320 Carry Tac-ops runs fine without the suppressor, has occasional jams and mis-feeds when shooting suppressed. Someone high up in the Sig suppressor group said it is due to how the barrel lock and unlocks and will require a new threaded barrel design.

        • Kivaari

          Or the can will have a booster.

          • Those issues are with a booster

          • Kivaari

            Than that’s an issue. I suspect a search of recent designs will provide an answer. Not many pistols are issued with a can anyway.

      • Hopefully just a lighter recoil spring is the cure.

    • GunnerMcGunner

      Right…because the regular Army troops who may be issued the handgun run them suppressed. :/

      • stu reder

        Really? I never heard that……….get it?

  • nano

    Not a surprises that the only real modular pistol won.

    • Hamhands

      The Sig offering is much like the only kid in the classroom submitting their assignment actually having read the instructions on what was actually asked of them.

      • JumpIf NotZero

        I’m SHOCKED that the new m&p isn’t modular. I mean, it’s like almost all the work required.

        Remington and Ruger have modulars now, neither submitted.

        Beretta submitted a modular apparently but you have to remeber the APX could be a better gun than the P320, the contract was not just the gun but ammo and holster as well all at a price point.

        • GordonTrenchard

          My takeaway is some concern and maybe embarrassment than for the most part American gun makers seem incapable of coming up with a design that the military can use and likes. All indicators are that if the main battle weapon ever gets replaced it will a European manufacturer that come up with the design (FN, HK, SIG, maybe even a Beretta)

          • myndbender

            Isn’t SIG a de facto American company at this point? It seems to me that all current manufactured SIGs in the US are made in the US, which is a shame because although I support American manufacturing & realize that German arms export regs have made US mfg a nesessity, US made versions of European designed & previously manufactured SIG pistols & rifles aren’t made to the same QC standards as their European predecessors. Idk if the 320 is a European or US design, but are they available in Europe as well as the US? I just hope the 320 doesn’t have the problems that US made 226 & 229’s, & 550 series rifles have had for whatever reason.

          • GordonTrenchard

            Well I don’t see innovation per se in american gunmakers on a consistent scale. That is for the most part. All the guns I want are European designs.

        • Kivaari

          The M&P has more mouse trap little parts than the others. I have never used an M&P. But, in talking with a commercial range about what worked in their facility where M&P and Glocks were the most common CCW guns used by clients, the opinion expressed was the M&P was NOT as reliable nor as durable as the Glocks. I’ll take their word on it.

      • Dr. Longfellow Buchenrad

        You would think that given that these are large production respected manufacturers that they would have given a little more thought to the matter.

        Though it is expensive to alter a current offering or develop something new to conform to the specifications and its not nearly as expensive to just throw something you already made in the mix with a blind hope that you win the lottery.

        • Kivaari

          Wasn’t this a 10 year long process?

      • J.T.

        It helps that the request was pretty much written so that only their pistol could win.

        • El Mac

          Actually, that is bullshit. People said the same thing about the FBI contract – that it was written for SIG. And yet Glunk won. No….The manufacturers have had years to work out this deal. SIG won it fair and square. They paid attention and didn’t rest on their laurels.

          • Kivaari

            Yep! This went on for nearly ten years.

    • Giolli Joker

      Beretta APX is too.

  • Joseph Goins

    I called the manual safety months ago.

    • GunnerMcGunner

      Of course, because you can’t trust Goober with anything less.

      • Don Ward

        Well yeah. All it takes is a slight uptick in negligent discharges because Private Snuffy and the Major down at Civil Affairs accidentally shoots their foot off followed by a 60 Minutes expose on the Army’s new half-billion dollar handgun that is “dangerous” to use and you’ll have Sen. John McCain calling for the whole thing to be shut down.

        That’s how military contracts in Washington D.C. work.

    • JumpIf NotZero

      Wow. Good job, you’re almost psychic.

      … then again it was a specific bullet point in the requirements going back like 2 years.

      • Joseph Goins

        The government didn’t specify that it had to be an external safety. Read the solicitation and purchase description before commenting. It’ll make you look like less of a jackass.

  • GordonTrenchard

    Complete was of money considering the pistols they have are better than good and how little pistols are used in actual combat. Waste of money. Maybe Trump will whack this dumb idea.

    • Porty1119

      The M9 is a better-than-good design, agreed, but the examples currently in service are worn out and need replacement.

      • GordonTrenchard

        Repair and replacement parts would be a fraction of the cost. I think even the M9A3 would save tons of money because you could interchange almost every part and it meets 80% of the MHS.

        • Kivaari

          The M9A3 remains a club. A nice club, but it is large and heavy. As much as I prefer Glocks, I just recently bought another M92A1. It remains a club, but I like it.

    • USMC03Vet

      Not even close. M9 is so antiquated today and for maintence the 320 design is simply amazing being able to swap the entire firearm is just a few seconds. Logistically it stomps the competition.

      • GordonTrenchard

        Is $580 million worth it though? If the M9 is antiquated how about the service rifle is that not antiquated? Why not upgrade the rifle which the vast majority of engagements are fought. Pistols are rarely used on the battlefield. In that regard why spend so much.

        • USMC03Vet

          It is in maintenance alone. Logistics is the factor for such organizations and the M16/M4 is still incredibly simple to work on. The contract was for more than just a firearm too.

  • Sgt. Stedenko

    Glock fanbois are triggered
    Quick. To your James Yeager safe spaces.

    • GordonTrenchard

      Yep I hear it already. On the flip side though I think there is some politics at play with the selection of Sig since they were basicallt tied with Beretta last time.

      • John

        Oh yeah, that definitely played into it. It’s probably as legendary as the rivalry between the Army and Marines at this point, and really, that just fits right in when you think about it.

        A lot of federal agencies already use Sig pistols as I understand it anyway, so it’s not like it’s new. Probably heard good things from the French as well. And Beretta’s as much a legacy weapon as the 1911 at this point, so I doubt they’ll be going anywhere much for a while. The military-industrial complex is not in danger from a sudden outbreak of world peace, is what I’m getting at.

    • Kivaari

      Aren’t there no safe spaces near James Yeager?

      • Anon. E Maus

        James Yeager’s safe space is a ditch.

      • RocketScientist

        Directly behind him? No wait, thats where one of his fellow instructors is aiming… for extra realism.

      • n0truscotsman

        Correct. There’s a lack of both mental and physical safe spaces.

    • Tim

      Pretty sure James Yeager carries a Sig P320. No external safety, either.

      • Dr. Longfellow Buchenrad

        He did for a while. Last I heard he carries a Canik.

    • USMC03Vet

      Which trigger though?

  • Audie Bakerson

    When do the patents on this expire?

    • USMC03Vet

      18 years or so.

      • Audie Bakerson

        I know patents are 20 years from filing (which will be before this first was shown publicly), but I was wondering if it had any new patents filed for it in the first place. It’s not the most revolutionary design.

  • GD Ajax

    So much butthurt. Butthurt from Glock, Beretta and 1911 fanbois everywhere.

  • Major Tom

    Aglockalypse averted!

    • Nicks87

      Not surprising really. I cant imagine how many Army guys would’ve shot themselves if the military had adopted a Glock.

      • USMC03Vet

        Haha they might have had to change policy and given butter bars rifles instead of pistols.

      • Kivaari

        Glocks with manual safeties and training would likely reduce neg discharges. The main failure of the military is to do too little training with handguns.

      • n0truscotsman

        Thats on them tbh. Im done trying to accomodate the retardation and incompetence in a 21st century, technologically advanced army. Enough is enough.

        And is the American Army somehow “dumber” than other militaries who have standardized Glocks?

        • Nicks87

          No but the Army had a crazy amount of NDs with the Beretta and I would say the Beretta is a very “safe” pistol when compared to a Glock. Like Kivaari said, training is the issue, and the Army will never take that much time and effort to train regular soldiers on a secondary weapon system.

          • n0truscotsman

            If the Army doesn’t fix that issue, then it is truly unsalvagable.

    • The 320 is a horseman of the Aglockalypse tho.

  • Don Ward

    As I replied on the previous TFB article, it was no surprise that the military opted for a handgun with a manual safety and one you didn’t have to pull the trigger to disassemble.
    Are we certain the next pistol will be striker fired or is there some hammer fired version knocking around too?

    • Nicks87

      I believe the 320 is striker only so I assume the M17 will be a striker pistol.

      • Don Ward

        To be sure. Was just wondering if something else weird was coming down the pipeline since this news has apparently caught the firearms world by surprise.

        • Twilight sparkle

          The army specifically said they didn’t want a hammer, if they did then the dog p250 would have been in the competition instead of the 320

          • Don Ward

            I must have missed that part somewhere along this prolonged ordeal.

            Sadness.

          • Twilight sparkle

            It wasn’t actually a requirement it was just something that was implied to be preferred. That preference was part of the reason why the m9a3 was dropped if I remember correctly

          • RSG

            Are there even any modular hammer fired guns? I don’t think so.

          • Twilight sparkle

            Depends on your definition of modular, the sig p250 is just as modular as its striker fired brother the 320, the FNX has interchangeable back straps a standard 1913 rail and it’s a good suppressor host, the p07 made it to the mhs trials with a changeable grip back strap and it comes with an easy to work on trigger with the capability to switch from safety to decocker

            I mean those guns are as modular or in some cases more modular than the glock 19 that some people were expecting to win and in the case of the 250 it’s exactly as modular as the gun that did win.

            Modular in this case appears to be more of an arbitrary term with fluid meaning rather than something with a hard definition

          • FarmerB

            I know they wanted modular, but really – can the logistics and bureaucracy cope with it? I would 100% expect that the handgun will stay as delivered throughout its service life because the system couldn’t cope with changing it.

          • RSG

            I’m talking about changing the entire frame.

        • Keiichi

          Swappable hammers…. the essence of tacticool…

    • Dr. Longfellow Buchenrad

      My vocal support always went to the P320, but I really wanted the STI/Detonics MTX to win. I figured that was a lost cause from the start though (not the gun; just the hopes that it would win). I dont think STI has anywhere near the production capacity to handle the contract.

  • xebat

    The Walther PPQ is a better handgun. Fite me !

    • Jack Morris

      I will not. It is better. This is truth.

    • Don Ward
      • Kivaari

        Remeber that PPK in 7.65mm hit like a brick through a window.

    • Major Tom

      U WOT M8?

    • MAGAKnightLeo

      It should have gone to the Glock 17M.

      • xebat

        Here is why the standard, out of the factory Glock, is behind the times and loses against the three German wonder-nines,
        namely Walther PPQ(Which i think is the best), HK VP9 and P320 :

        – Glock (OEM) trigger is garbage
        – Glock (OEM) has a garbage hand-grip ergonomically and in texture
        – Glock (OEM) has no picatinny rail
        – Glock (OEM) has no side serrations on the slide at the front

        • MAGAKnightLeo

          It still should have been the Glock 17.

        • MAGAKnightLeo

          Actually, not the 17 – the Glock 20. Full shift away from Wonder Nine to Wonder Ten is where we should go.

          • Dr. Longfellow Buchenrad

            I wouldnt complain about that at all. Right now the G20 is the right 10; that is until they make a P320 in 10.

          • MAGAKnightLeo

            I’ve found the G40 to be quite pleasant to shoot – the long slide really absorbs the recoil. But I suppose they didn’t want a longslide.

          • Dr. Longfellow Buchenrad

            Yeah seeing as a lot of contracts are favoring 4″ barrels instead of the usual 5″ standard, I doubt a 6″ would get very far. And personally I dont (in my current phase of life at least) have any interest in a pistol with a barrel longer than 5″, but I also havent shot the G40 so if the recoil was really that much nicer I could consider it.

          • MAGAKnightLeo

            200 grain Buffalo Bore was smooth shooting rather than mildly painful.

          • Kivaari

            Adopting 10mm anything makes no sense whatsoever.

          • MAGAKnightLeo

            It makes perfect sense.

          • Mazryonh

            A B&T USW in that caliber might do the trick, because you have more points of contact and much less perceived recoil with the folding stock, and it can still be holstered.

            And manufacturing 10mm as a new NATO handgun/SMG round wouldn’t be overly difficult. For starters, it uses the same bullets as .40 S&W, and since the 10mm’s case is just 3mm longer than .40 S&W’s, 10mm could use the same production lines as those making .40 S&W.

          • Kivaari

            I do not support the use of 10mm for a general issue handgun in either police or military settings. I could live with the .40, but see no reason for it since the 9mm is adequate. Supporters of the 10 fail to understand that the negatives of larger sized pistol having more recoil and flash is a poor thing to throw out into general issue. The 9mm is the right size, modest recoil, low flash, high capacity and fits the hands of most shooters. MOST shooters I’ve come across can not handle a pistol like the Glock M20. 10mm makes sense for a sporting round and for individuals that are willing to train with it. That isn’t the military.

          • El Mac

            YOU do not support the use of 10mm for a general issue handgun? Wow. I bet the Pentagon just sat up and took notice.

          • Mazryonh

            I didn’t suggest that a conventional handgun in 10mm should be issued to LEOs or military personnel, I was suggesting one like the USW (examined before on this blog) that has more points of contact than a regular handgun, so the recoil would be much more manageable. Something with the ergonomics of an H&K MP7 or a B&T MP9 would be easy for even smaller individuals to handle in 10mm, because grip size is less of a concern if you have the ergonomics of a long gun.

            Flash can be dealt with by using blast diverters, also examined by this blog, that throw the flash and some of the noise forward to reduce the likelihood of shooter flinching. Suppressors would go even further in addressing the firing noise.

            They used to issue nine-pound M1 Garand rifles back in the day to some pretty scrawny conscripts. It was a one-size-fits-all weapon, with little-to-no tailoring to the user possible. Those who adapted to the weapon and became skilled in its use regardless of their bodily proportions had a better chance in the field. The same holds true with handguns should those carrying them have no other choice but to fall back on them. Nobody wants to be caught in Private Joker’s situation in the classic film Full Metal Jacket when his rifle failed and he was left with nothing more than his skills and his handgun between him and a bullet through his head from a female insurgent not 30 steps away.

            Yes, Pvt. Joker could and did “finish the job” with his M1911 in .45 ACP, but at a minimum the 10mm with fully-loaded rounds would make his job much less dicey in more environments, since it is more “barrier-blind” than either the 9mm or .45 ACP rounds, much flatter-shooting, and still capable of using heavy subsonic rounds for suppressed shots. Chambered in a weapon like I described above, a 10mm “PDW” would be both easier to use and a much more viable threat than a 9mm handgun, while still not being much larger than a handgun and still being able to share ammunition with handguns in the same caliber issued to those who have sufficiently trained with it.

          • Kivaari

            I’d rather pack a small Glock 19. A PDW is designed to replace the rifle and pistol for support personnel not augment the individual soldier already packing a carbine. Pistols are likely un-needed by most soldiers. BUT, I like having one. A new M17 with 2 spare magazines in a lightweight holster attached to the LBE wont add much weight or bulk.
            As many personnel as possible should be packing an M4. Adding a new PDW just seems like a bad idea. As much as I like SMGs, they are like packing a carbine around.

          • RSG

            Lol. Not everyone, scratch that, most everyone can’t handle the recoil of a 10mm. And the chances of the military adopting a non NATO round is ZERO!!!

          • MAGAKnightLeo

            With the God-Emperor assuming the Oval Throne in less than 6 hours, 10x25mm Automatic could have been added as a NATO cartridge.

            PRAISE THE GOD-EMPEROR!

        • Rocky Mountain 9

          Don’t forget the plastic sights (aka garbage).

          • n0truscotsman

            Glock sights are steel.

        • RSG

          VP9? Great trigger, but seizes up in humidity, not to mention water. I wouldn’t trust it around sweat.

        • n0truscotsman

          The Glock trigger is just fine for a striker fired handgun. You should see what a trained user can achieve.

          And the handgrip isn’t a 1911s, but that matters very little IMO. Anybody who has any kind of reasonable training isn’t going to have problems with the grip style.

          Picatinny rail is a big so what. Accessories are not common among typical service members, with a few notable exceptions (who have been using Glock anyways).

          Front serrations is a non issue.

          I agree that the PPQ is a good alternative to the Glock, though. If the 4 aforementioned things are issues to an individual person, the PPQ/PPX would be the better choice.

          • Dr. Longfellow Buchenrad

            With a little training one can overcome the shortcomings of nearly any firearm. The mark of a good firearm is one that doesnt have the shortcomings in the first place.

          • n0truscotsman

            There is no such thing. Thats meaningless idealism.

        • Joe Gamer

          The P30 series is the HK combat pistol, they did not originally support or recommend the VP9 for military or law enforcement. Now that it’s popularity has taken off they have shifted positions on that somewhat but the P30 is still the choice for combat IMO.

      • diana pierce

        Glock’s long been there and ain’t going anywhere. Waiting to SW and Ruger to share a spot somewhere or other in the military realm. Few know this but the USMC Tank Corp bought 5000 Ruger P95’s for Tankers 6 or 7 yrs ago.. Hows that one for ya! Rugged Stainless, loves dirt and sand… and priced very very well.

        • Kivaari

          I believe those guns went to the Afghan National Police.

          • Ron

            Went to Iraq and Afghan forces, the Army also because of not really having a lot of handguns did issue them to many of the embedded trainers whose units they came from did not have enough pistols to support the requirement that trainer have a handgun

        • Back in December 2004, the US Army’s Tank-Automotive & Armament Command (TACOM) posted solicitation W52H09-05-R-0067. They basically wanted 10,000 9x19mm pistols in a hurry, and were willing to place multiple contracts to fill it. Vendors were allowed to bid for as few as 100 pistols up to the full total of 10,000. The most telling portion of the solicitation was that they requested a price for the pistols to be shipped directly to Baghdad.

          Before the end of the month. Ruger received contract W52H09-05-C-0058 for 5,000 P95, and SIG-Sauer received contract W52H09-05-C-0059 for 5,000 SP2022.

          When outsiders saw the name Tank-Automotive & Armament Command, they assumed the pistols must be for tankers. Nothing could be further from the truth. A subordinate command of the Army Materiel Command, TACOM-Rock Island was responsible for all Army small arms procurement. It also handled orders from other US military service branches, and managed foreign military sales (FMS).

          It turns out that the rush order was meant to arm Iraqi security forces ahead of the country’s first post-Saddam parliamentary elections in January 2005. Confirmation can be found in the government report “Iraqi Security Forces: Weapons Provided by the U.S. Department of Defense Using the Iraq Relief and Reconstruction Fund.”

          • Kivaari

            That makes sense. I thought it was for ANP, but Iraq makes as much sense.

        • Paul Strickland

          P95 ???….so funny…triggers are like the one on my wife’s vacuum cleaner only without the precision feel of the Hoover.

      • VanDiemensLand

        Haha grammar Nazi, I lol’d

    • USMC03Vet

      PPQ is the choice for people that think hair triggers equate to the best conceal carry handgun.

    • Joe Gamer

      The PPQ trigger is too light for military service, hell it’s too light for anything but the range. I have seen several people pick up our PPQ and immediately ND it down range because the break is too light and too ambiguous. Too light is worse than too heavy for almost any real world situation IMO.

  • Dan

    Meh. I don’t make buying and carrying decisions based on what a government committee thinks. A five shot snubby is good enough for me.

  • Red McCloud

    Kinda wish the Detonics MTX won but, hey, the second best gun in the competition won instead! The P320 is a good choice for our next service pistol nonetheless.

    • Dr. Longfellow Buchenrad

      I agree. I love the MTX, but I figured them trying to win the contract it was a lost cause from the start. Im not sure that STI has near the capacity to produce that many guns. I really wanted one for the SAO configuration though.

  • Harry’s Holsters

    At least the thumb safety is well positioned if they have to have it.

    • Dr. Longfellow Buchenrad

      I think 95% of the handgun world agrees that a 1911 style safety (at least in position and operation) is the proper way to do a safety if it is necessary.

      • USMC03Vet

        You mean grip safety? I always laugh when people are so passionately against grip safety but then use firearms that essentially have a grip safety on the trigger. ?

        • FarmerB

          I think he means a thumb safety.

        • Dr. Longfellow Buchenrad

          I meant the thumb safety

          But Id much rather have a solid trigger and a grip safety than a tabbed trigger.

  • M. Ira Miles

    The link on “P320” above is no good — goes to Walmart.

  • flight27

    So here is how it will go down with the sig p320 in the military – first someone will have a slide failure that gets retold over and over, then the Army will buy crappy third-party magazine, and never perform any preventative maintenance. At that point every soldier will declare the P320 as a piece of crap of a pistol and how the selection process was rigged. Meanwhile, older vets will complain about the Army dropping the M9 when it was clearly better than this new “plastic gun”, forgetting the M9’s problems. And the even older vets will argue, no you are both wrong – the 1911 was clearly the superior sidearm, forgetting the 1911’s problems. And if you come across a Civil War vet, he would probably argue that the 1851 Navy Colt was clearly a finer pistol than those ugly “semi-autos”, which I would tend to agree with.

    • VanDiemensLand

      You are so correct!

    • Sid Collins

      We taught soldiers to aim and place the shot correctly….. back when loading each shot into the muzzle of the pistol could take 20 seconds….

    • Sense Offender

      And don’t forget they’ll still use the FMJ and never get the performance needed.

    • DIR911911 .

      SPOILER ALERTS!!!!!!

    • GordonTrenchard

      I think it is more likely there will a “failure” of the polymer. Like when someone uses the pistol as a hammer or drops it in a fire or something. I question whether it will ever get funded and/or move forward. For the very small of relative round fired in anger this is a very expensive move.

    • machgman

      Pul up a schematic of the SIG 320. Look closely are carefully at all of those tiny and fragile springs used in tight little spaces. Ask yourself, under military field conditions, doesn’t that look like another cluster FUBAR landing on our heads?

      The SIG 320 trigger is a derivative of and a near copy of the one in the SIG 250. For civilian use, that system is fine as most folks will not shoot and keep the weapon dirty. But in the military, we have serious occasions where things get filthy and tested. When reviewing youtube videos on the robustness of the SIG 250, there are great admonishments from SIG as to how fragile and how easily these tiny springs can malfunction. Since the 320 trigger system is a clone of the 250, those issues equally apply.

      • El Mac

        Oh bullcrap. They put the 320 through it’s paces and it came out fine. As for Glock, I had one fail on my after one round in Afghanistan. It’s a douche pistol.

        • Anton_Zilwicki

          Pretty sure there was a user fail involved there……

          • El Mac

            No actually there wasn’t knucklehead. Too much time trying to get the beltfed ATV supply vehicle off of the ramp of a CH47 and too much dust got into the G19. It locked up tighter than a frog’s ass. So try again nimrod.

          • Nicks87

            Any weapon will fail without proper maintenance.

          • El Mac

            Had nothing to do with maintenance. Had everything to do with environmental conditions. Get used to it. Glocks fail.

          • Kivaari

            Fail to clean.

          • El Mac

            Uh, no. Not hardly.

          • Kivaari

            You said it got too much dust in it while off loading a CH47. OK, it got dirty, it needed cleaning. Or it wasn’t an “environmental” issue as you claimed. What is that if it was heavy dust. I simply cannot believe it would fail under such conditions.

          • El Mac

            You have no concept of the amount or type of dust that is over there and what it’s like when it’s churned up by the tornado like winds generated by a Shithook. I don’t care whether you believe it or not. I was there, you weren’t. It happened. Get over it.

          • Kivaari

            My gripe was you denied it needed proper maintenance. Had you said the gun was heavily dust covered, infiltrated most likely, and needed to be swamped out, that would be understandable. When you denied it needed proper maintenance it made you look silly. EVERYONE understands a Chinook full of dust created a stoppage. I think you were so wrapped up in it failing and “it wasn’t my fault” that you lost track of reality. Your pistol became filthy and you didn’t clean it, resulting in a failure to cycle. You wanted to be able to badmouth a Glock and not your own failing. Hey, dust happens.

          • El Mac

            It did NOT need maintenance prior to the patrol. THAT is the point. It DID need maintenance afterward – a vice and mallet to separate the slide from frame to allow for removal of the debris. So you see Kivaari, the vaunted the Glock turns out to be no different than any other pistol. Really, to play word games and semantics is unseemly…you should consider not doing that. Otherwise, you look clownish.

          • Kivaari

            It needed care as soon as possible after it became dirty. That is why troops are trained to care for their weapons in the field. A quick “field stripping” to restore the gun to function.

          • El Mac

            Well thank you very much Captain Obvious! But clearly you are either as thick as a brick or simply too lazy to read. It required a VICE and a MALLET. Is that something you normally pack on a combat patrol? Do tell.

          • Kivaari

            I just wondered why you let it get so bad.

          • El Mac

            I guess you really are that dense. Good grief.

          • Kivaari

            It got dirty. Clean it.

          • Mazryonh
          • Kivaari

            I can see fine dust stopping it – but that means it needed cleaning – AKA: “proper maintenance”. I think El Mac missed his own comment that the gun got exceptionally dirty due to dust getting kicked up by a CH47. So the gun was exposed for an extended amount of time, got really dirty and needed cleaning. He doesn’t think that’s proper maintenance.

          • El Mac

            You think you are going to stop a patrol in the middle of actions on the objective so you can clean a pistol? Go back to your basement and comic books.

          • Kivaari

            Remember boot camp where they taught you how to speedily disassemble your weapon and reassemble it. The idea was to be able to do minimal efforts to restore the gun to service. If you are down to pistol firing, you are screwed. A glock takes but a matter of seconds to take apart, wipe down and reassemble. Routine maintenance.
            It is recommended you have an M4. Have you not noticed that at breaks, especially if you tell the command element of your need, you would be given a few minutes to ensure the condition of you weapon. This was a basic function when I served. I trained others to do so.
            If you are on patrol armed only with a pistol, I’d think you would have really been on it at the first opportunity. MOST times you are not dumped right into combat. MOST of the time you have a primary weapon, and you ensure they are working as well.

          • El Mac

            Clearly, you have no idea what was going on. That’s ok. I understand…you are used to video games.

        • Nicks87

          Total bullshit.

          • El Mac

            Yep, you are total complete bullshit.

        • n0truscotsman

          So its ‘logical’ to use your single anecdote as a broad painbrush across an entire brand of handguns? especially one as well-established as glock?

          • El Mac

            I don’t care what you do with my anecdote. I only mention it because ANY pistol is subject to breakage or malfunctions. I have seen plenty of Glocks with broken barrel lugs, trigger return springs, slide stop springs, cracked slides, etc. It is what it is. No make is 100% and as long as they are made and assembled by human for humans, there will be issues. Glock is not an exception.

        • machgman

          My, what a well nuanced and sophisticated reply. You must be a brain-dead Liberal as I never advocated that Glocks were any better, but certainly recognize that Glocks have a huge worldwide, proven reliability record.

          As for your bad Glock story, obviously you don’t know how to maintain your guns nor check them out as to why your fell on its face due to operator error and incompetence.

          BTW, let’s believe your story; when were you issued a Glock in Afghanistan? What unit? What is your MOS that allowed you to be issued a Glock?

          • El Mac

            With your liberal-like response, I wouldn’t give you the sweat off of my dog’s sack. Go drink your glockaide and enjoy the salt lick.

          • Paul Strickland

            Way to stay classy there Mac. What a very intelligent way to make your argument…..jeez.

          • El Mac

            Well bud, if you expect someone to roll over when they are attacked, you got the wrong dude.

          • Joe Pole

            Good question machgman!! So El Mac what was or is your MOS?

          • El Mac

            Truthfully, it’s none of your business.

          • efred1

            A Glock, when used consistently and perfectly, will function reliably and without incident.

            However, humans are, by definition, imperfect, and there are no failsafes or backup safety features in a Glock to prevent accidental discharge, which is why there is an abundance.

      • Paul Strickland

        Phittt!….I don’t need a schematic…I have two 320s and have been all through them both. I’ve changed the sights, triggers, frames with no problems…easy.
        They are really rather simple and very strong. If your slide, barrel, and frame are OK you could simply drop in another trigger group in seconds. You could carry two of them in your shirt pocket! Oh…and the 320 is not a clone of a 250, they share parts but work differently. One is a striker fired …one is hammer fired…big difference.

      • nagurski

        ‘The SIG 320 trigger is a derivative of and a near copy of the one in the SIG 250’

        The 320 is striker fired, the 250 is hammer fired. How the hell are they a near copy of each other?

        • machgman

          The standard 320 and 250 use the same gripframe. Go to Midway, and you can see that the OEM gripframes are listed as being used for both pisrils. The major differences are in the slides. With that said, the 320 Sig submitted for the review had a thumb safety added to the gripframe. If all that thumb safety did was block the rearward push of a trigger bar on the sriker, only Sig knows at this point if the newly modified gripfram will function with the 250 components.

    • Anton_Zilwicki

      Thank you for making my point! Excellent analysis.

  • Paveway

    Good God, they picked the ugliest pistol out there.

    High bore axis?

    Hasn’t SOCOM, units using urgent funding for COM pistols, etc all been buying G17/19s for a decade?

    Prediction: Program is either scrapped or contested until the point it is canceled.

    What does a 320 in 9mm do better than a M9? Nothing.

    • DIR911911 .

      if the 320 is comparable to a glock 19 then it’s significantly smaller than the m9

    • El Mac

      Ugliest? Not even close. That title belongs to Glunk. ANY Glunk.

    • Paul Strickland

      Beauty is in the eye (hand?) of the beholder. I have two 320s and they better looking every time you shoot them. An outstanding firearm.

    • maodeedee

      I don’t really care as long as M9’s will soon be available through the CMP for about $200 dollars each which is better than having the government melt them down like Barack Insane Obama would have wanted. Not that I’ve ever wanted an M9 but I’d pay $200 for one that was a piece of history.

  • Malthrak

    So…if they were going to another 9mm…why not just keep the M9 or move to the M9A3? I can’t see any meaningful (aside from subjective preference) performance or accessory improvement over the M9A3, it’s hard to see where there’d be a cost advantage given items in inventory and training/institutional knowledge of the M9. I’m really not seeing a reason to go with the P320 aside from “we wanted a new toy and got bored of the old one”.

    Not to hate on the P320, it’s a great gun, but I just don’t see the logic in this decision, particularly when retaining a manual safety.

    • Chief Homeslice

      Current inventory frames are worn out and due to be replaced. Metal frames are more expensive, make repair more difficult/costly and weigh more. M9s don’t have picatinny rails either.

      • Malthrak

        The A3 model Beretta has out does have a 1913 rail, is parts interchangeable with the older M9, and the military has decades of logistics infrastructure, field experience and institutional knowledge for the M9, which all would have flowed right into the A3 in a way that per unit cost savings with a polymer frame pistol could almost certainly not overcome given the 9 digit investment here.

        • FarmerB

          I agree with you, but that’s not how governments do procurement. And if they DID do what you say, some congress critter from the Armed Services Committee would roast the people involved in front of the TV cameras.

    • DIR911911 .

      being modular means unit armorers will be able to order grips and custom whittle them down to fit smaller hands or switch back to full size when that soldier is replaced. the beretta is a big gun. when I was an armorer I had a captain that was 5’1″ 95 pounds soaking wet , to her the 1911 was big.

  • USMC03Vet

    Good for Sig Sauer. The design with the drop in housing is really ahead of game and makes maintence a breeze for the user and the armory.

  • tiger

    Since the 320 is modular in configuration, will it also replace the M11 Sig?

  • not even a p226…..

  • idahoguy101

    Isn’t Beretta still delivering M9 pistols under contract?

    • GordonTrenchard

      Yes, thats what Ernest Langdon said yesterday. Makes no sense to me.

  • RSG

    I wouldn’t hold your breath that this will go through. I’m sure Mad Dog has an opinion. And let’s not forget that the right voice, whispering at the right time, into Trump’s right ear about a half a billion dollars on equipment that isn’t needed, could have this die right on the vine.

  • Kivaari

    It should have been a Glock.

    • NukeItFromOrbit

      So the Army could settle for average?

      • Kivaari

        In some cases that is a practical choice. I’d not feel under gunned with a Glock. I wouldn’t feel like I was getting second rate gear. I’d like to shoot the M17 before I make judgement between the two. I just know the Glock 17 so well that I have a hard time faulting it.

  • Sid Collins

    Still shooting 9mm NATO ammo….. and the difference is what exactly?

  • mazkact

    Is anyone surprised ? The fix was in all along. I own a SIG not really a huge fan, good guns I reckon but overpraised and over priced.

    • DIR911911 .

      careful . . . it’ll hear you

      • mazkact

        Ah it just sits on the top shelf in the vault and rarely comes out to play. I thought that maybe a 290 RS would be the perfect pocket rocket but it ain’t and nothing is. I just keep going back to my J-frame.

  • manual safety P320? Yesplease.

    • El Mac

      Amen to that! Sweet.

    • Paul Strickland

      why?….to what end? The 320 is perfect and perfectly safe just the way it is.

      • El Mac

        And there is nothing wrong with a manual safety either. I refer you to hundreds of thousands of beltfeds, shotguns, subguns, sniper rifles and M4s that have them.

        • Paul Strickland

          Never said that there was anything wrong with manual safeties when the gun needs and is designed for it. I have two 320s and have yet feel like “Ooo….I need another safety lever to push”. They’re just fine the way they are but I could see where newbies and the inexperienced may feel better with additional buttons to push….like their smart phones I guess.

          • El Mac

            Or perhaps that hundred plus year old push button is just a good idea for anyone….Like all the other weapon systems in the inventory. But hey, operating a safety ain’t for the weak minded.

          • Paul Strickland

            Again…..hundreds of years or hundreds of guns….irrelevant. Why add buttons that are not needed on “this” gun. The 320 was designed to be one the safest pistol on the market. The thumb safety was added to appease the PC government types. And this gun is not like anything in the Sig inventory. “If you need training wheels on your Harley perhaps you should buy a car”

          • El Mac

            OK. I’m glad you like yours.

      • maodeedee

        And so is a Smith and Wesson revolver but some people would like to see safeties on those, too.

        • Paul Strickland

          Well fortunately we just had an election to make sure “some people” don’t get their way.

  • Jeff Weinstein

    I’ve been carrying a Sig p229 40 since the early 90’s. It’s never had a problem of any kind. I shoot it once a month. Very accurate, makes me look like a pro. Don’t know why they would choose one with a safety, it’s safe in the holster.
    The Glock and Beretta are great guns too, but I count on my sig to save my life. Sig sauer, don’t leave home without it!

    • Cottersay

      It may be safe in the holster, but when it is drawn that is a completely different matter. The Army, wisely, will always choose a “lock and load” pistol for a very good reason; soldier proofing. (Not everyone in the military is a Seal or in SpecOps.)

  • James Matters

    On Trumpmas Day, they make this decision?
    They couldn’t wait to make sure an AAMERICAN firm could make an AMERICAN weapon for AMERICAN soldiers?

  • whamprod

    So Patrick, and this is a serious question….. As someone who has made a substantial investment in Glock (2 G43s, 2 G19s, a G17, and about to buy a G26), is the P320 SO good that it would be good advice to a n00b to buy the Sig instead, or do you still consider “buy a Glock” to be good advice? Or, are they about as good as one another, and simply another option to consider? I’m assuming a n00b who isn’t a gun guy, but just wants a reliable 9mm pistol for home defense …..and possibly CCW.

    • maodeedee

      Sigs are good but they aren’t worth double what you pay for a Glock. Better to spend the extra money on more ammo and maybe even spend money on some formal training. It isn’t what hardware you use that makes you effective with a firearm, it’s how you program the software in your brain.

      I’d like to get one of these after they become the US service pistol but I’d like it to be like the sig mk25 229-9 navy seal pistol with all the official markings and I’d only want it for it’s collector interest and not because I think it’s a great 9mm pistol.

      The Browning P-35 Hi-power, now THAT was a great 9mm pistol and so was the CZ-75 which copied the Hi-power grip shape. And I still think they should have gone to 40 caliber for the US service pistol since they’re restricted to FMJ ammo.

  • Colonel K

    I know of at least one war that was started with a pistol in Sarajevo, but I can’t think of any that were won with a pistol. From a historical perspective, this handgun decision is about as important to combat as Warcraft. I know that, psychologically, some folks obsess over it, but in the greater scheme of military operations, handguns are of little value. Special Operations forces who might actually engage in limited combat with them have other handguns at their disposal should they prefer them, so the choice is of no tactical importance to them. Personally, I think there are superior choices out there, but being modular, it may be easier to upgrade the SIG rather than buy new designs in the future. I’d be more concerned about the ammunition selected for it than I would about the delivery platform, especially when talking about 9mm Parabellum.

  • El Mac

    Effed up what? Your face?

    • Kivaari

      It is hard to believe.

  • ostiariusalpha

    Whoa there, pard! Glocks are extremely robust & reliable pistols certainly, but you don’t need to f-lch Gaston because of that. I have seen plenty of Glocks fail for any number of environmental reasons, they’re not invincible. El Mac’s anecdote is entirely plausible, yet that is no slam on the G19’s well earned reputation, it’s just a fact of life for mechanisms in bad conditions. Would the P320 have faired any better? Probably not.

    • Kivaari

      Except he blames the pistol for having been filled with dust, firing one round and being screwed up. Plausible. But then he denied it needed cleaning all while saying it was dusty and normal maintenance wasn’t the issue. Except cleaning off excess dust or mud picked up in the environment (fast like in his case or slow) is proper care. Either the gun was dirty and needed cleaning or it wasn’t dirty and didn’t need cleaning. There are enough contrasts in his statement to make me think it is total BS.

      • ostiariusalpha

        If it gets contaminated after he had strapped it on (assuming it had received at least some modest maintenence cleaning before that) then he would certainly not be at fault for it misfiring. This is not implausible with the dust storm he describes either, I’ve been told many times by veterans of Iraq & Afghanistan that the grit would collect in their weapons within a day even in relatively good weather.

      • El Mac

        Semantical clown. That is not what I said.

  • necron99

    WTF–what’s is wrong with the P226 and P228–NOTHING–

    • maodeedee

      Nothing except the DA/SA trigger.

  • mi

    What an incredible waste of money. Vets are dying and a great weapon (m9)
    Along with its supply chain is being replaced give the money to the VA and just replace overused pistols

  • Paul Strickland

    When it gets down to it the only thing that is a really important common part of the two guns, 320/250, is they share a magazine. And with Sig mags always seeming in short supply this may be an issue.

    I see no reason why the 320 needs a thumb safety…but handing them over to a room full of high school drop-outs that have never touched a firearm I might what a few extra safeties too.

    • machgman

      Thanks for letting us know that you are completely ignorant regarding US military weapons training. Your ignorance insults all of us who have gone through military training and achieved the standards imposed on us in order to properly serve our country.

      As with any training done in the US military (yes, even in the Navy and Coast Guard when weapon deployment is a part of the official job duties) there are standards of proficiencies and competencies demanded in basic training of all recruits. If you fail to pass, you are washed out.

      Your fantasy of “handing them (weapons) over to a room full of high school drop-outs that have never touched a firearm” is total BullShit and would never happen except in a brain-dead Hollywood movie.

      Yes, in the past before the ’80s, there were shortcomings found in basic training, but now everything has been tightened up to where accountability and responsibility are clear. The movie “Heartbreak Ridge” somewhat shows the beginning of this changeover to a more professional military. As a caveat, there is and always will be staffpussies (whose incompetences have never been disproven) always hiding out since the military is a reflection of humanity and not immune to politicking and suck-ups.

      Let correct you on this as well. The Sig 250 and the Sig 320 share the same identical grip frames. They share almost identical receivers which are the drop-in portion that can be moved to various grip frames. The triggers are almost identical except for the parts modified from the 250 design to now interface with the striker fired slide of the 320.

      While most folks now see the tactical disadvantageous of having a thumb safety, many of the old fart generals (who never had to fire any weapon at a combatant, are mentally fosilized and have always been told a thumb safety is essential. Hence, the RFP issued for the new pistol included the primary requirement of a thumb safety, which Glock refused to add.

      You should note that the command structure for the Seals, Delta, and other Special Units had already adopted the Glock WITHOUT a thumb safety and have issued them to their Units. Also, anyone who is not a member of these elite units who claims to have been issued a Glock is lying as there are hard restrictions in the MILSTRIP procurement and base supply system that even generals outside of these special units cannot easily overcome just to have a Glock issued to some wannabe, especially someone who claims that he works out on a service area behind the wire. Even then, when would someone have any legit occasion to fire any short range pistol around aircraft on the tarmac and then claim dust caused a malfunction in his supposedly issued Glock?

      • El Mac

        I was with you until you got to the bit about the thumb safety. If they are so bad, why do they remain on every other weapon in the inventory?
        As for you back handed slap regarding dust and tarmacs and who is issued Glocks, and who is outside the wire, you haven’t the foggiest notion pal. You have just proved you are yet another internet jack a s s wannabe SME.

        • machgman

          As for thumb safeties, deployment of handgun is different from a M4 and different from a MK19 and different from a M224A1 and different from a XM25. You figure it out as not all things are the same.

          BTW, I have in my jacket and on my DD214 authorization to wear my Cav hat and spurs, do you? Not bad for a guy who ended up with 3 MOS and a few schools to go with my deployments where they shoot and bomb you. What I am saying, I don’t care what you believe, cause I don’t believe you were ever out of country.

          • El Mac

            No actually deployment of a handgun with a thumb safety is no different than deployment with an M4.

            As for you service, you may well be an MOH winner. I don’t know. But if you served, God bless you and your family.

            But sadly, you come across as a one each, individual, government issued fobbit dwelling spoon with a keyboard kommando complex.

      • Paul Strickland

        OK Rambo we get it you can preach and are very excitable. I was joking….a poke at those in charge of such decisions not the recruits. However think back to those first days of boot camp…how many of those guys did you really want to share a firing line with? And yes I’ve been there. I’ve seen many washout because they couldn’t learn to swim (4999) and I sure didn’t want to be around while they try to figure out a 1911.

        And yes the training is much better today than in my day. I’m quite sure those that are issued firearms are well trained and know how to handle them.

        You are the other hand need to take a deep breath and get a life.

      • Kivaari

        My US Navy firearms training consisted of firing 10 rounds of 22 LR ammo from a Remington M513. I knew more about the M1 rifle and M1911A1 pistol than almost everyone in boot camp except for the Chief PO drill instructor. We were never “trained” on any firearm.
        At least in the army we were trained on the M16A1 rifle.

  • victory0311

    Glock are behind the times. Much better choices out there now. People are screaming for a Gen 5

  • bob

    “I went to fight the other night….

  • Kivaari

    I absolutely hate the idea of a 10mm pistol or carbine for any use in the military or police. If you want a 10mm, buy a .40 caliber in a package that fits the hand of most people. I have never found a 10mm pistol that I like. I find the recoil and flash to be excessive.
    I don’t undrrstand why the 10mm crowd ignores the needs of MOST users, They may be perfectly comfortable with an over-sized gun, having greater recoil and blast, but that doesn’t make it good for most. I’d rather see everyone armed with a 9mm that fits them, is controllable and has a low flash.

    • Mazryonh

      Sure, that’s been your experience with high-flash and high-recoil calibers, but people can and do adapt to those factors, from the trailblazer in bear country who has trained with and relies on a magnum-caliber revolver to get that last-second-shot off at a bear who makes a surprise charge, to the millions of conscripts with widely varying physiques and levels of previous firearms experience who manned loud fully-automatic firearms in both World Wars (and those were before the invention of modern hearing protection). Of course, those conscripts were in an “adapt or die” situation, but it does show how often it’s been done.

      I understand that for “most” firearm users, comfort while shooting is a major factor which governs what firearms and calibers they use. But there comes a point when shooting comfort doesn’t translate to effectiveness in the field. That’s where the 10mm crowd comes in.

      The comfort factor is another major reason why I suggested 10mm in a carbine format or hybrid format like the USW. The recoil from that caliber is much less when used in a carbine than when used in a handgun, thanks to the heavier weight of a carbine and its ergonomics. The longer barrel of a carbine means less sound out of the muzzle with every shot, and that’s before you add a suppressor. And even if you use a carbine model with a magazine that loads into the pistol grip (for increased ease of training and shorter overall length), a somewhat-uncomfortable pistol grip isn’t as much of a problem during use if you can securely brace your offhand on a handguard or forward grip and can still easily manipulate the trigger.

      Speaking of .40 S&W, you get issues like the case failures out of Glocks in that caliber, and the fact that 10mm Auto handguns by comparison sometimes have less felt recoil because of the heavier slides and frames often used by guns in 10mm.

      There are various 10mm handgun models being made by a variety of manufacturers, from M1911s to Glocks to Sigs. You could try a single-stack handgun in 10mm (which normally have narrower grip sizes) to see how it fits your hand without firing it first. Cops using them would be able to shoot targets behind car windshields if using full-power ammo right out of their handguns or pistol-caliber carbines, without resorting to rifle rounds or shotgun slugs.

      • Kivaari

        I do not like the 10mm cartidge. If we are talking individuals in bear country, fine. When we are talking about arming cops and soldiers, no damn way.
        Sure people can learn to shoot a 10mm. But that takes training which is expensive. It takes guns shoved into the hands of people whose hands are simply not large enough for the pistols. A single stack SIG or M1911 simply doesn’t fit as many hands as more suitable pistols.
        If you have to have a 10mm diambeter bullet for yourself that fine. If you demand everyone use a 10mm, then it better be in a .40 so the frame size is small enough to fit MOST hands.
        As much as I like SIG P220 pistols, they are too large for my hand. In .45 the recoil slows down the shooting speed quite a bit. 10 mm kicks even more. I’d rather get there with less, as in 9mm, but in a small group and fast. Small hits in the right spot are better than big misses.
        Our department changed from .45 to 9mm after I showed them how it is done with a Glock 17 compared to a Glock 21. Everyone showed an improvement in scores. I could get 9 hits out and on target faster than any one using the .45 could. Good hits are better than bad hits. Once the .45 advocates actually shot the 9mm and found out they could shoot so much better the cry for the big bullets went away. A 10mm will simply make the problems worse.
        I always think in terms of what is best for the majority of shooters when discussing ISSUE guns. There is no way in hell that the army will adopt a 40 or 10mm. It just doesn’t make any sense to do so.
        As for carbines it would be OK for some. I’d rather have an AR15 in 5.56mm anyday over any pistol caliber carbine. I like pistol caliber carbines and was issued an MP5 for a decade. I liked it. But I know the 5.56mm just makes more sense. Noise is a factor, and the PCCs are easier on the unprotected ears.
        BUT I don’t like 10mm anything.

  • Kivaari

    Did the submitted Glocks have safeties? I understand they are offered as an option to government purchasers.

    • machgman

      I doe not have solid info on that.

      My hearsay from from a Delta Captain is Glock refused to re-engineer their pistols to include a safety.

      Why not? Glock has said in the past that it already has enough worldwide business dominating the military and police markets. A US military contract would mean they would have to undergo expansion of production facilities as well as more job hires, either here or in Europe.

      Of course, if they file a lawsuit or appeal to review the decision to award Sig the contract, that would mean they want the extra business and/or do do not want to lose out to Sig.

  • El Mac

    Ok, that proves it. Go back to your Call of Duty mouth breather.

  • El Mac

    Oh nice try libtard. Your mama should really limit your time on the keyboard. But there is hope for you yet. Trump will turn the country around, God willing. And little boys like you may yet have a future beyond your games and fantasies. You might even get to put on a real uniform! I wish you well and Godspeed.

    • machgman

      You either are a feeble old timer (your ref to 1911) or you are a sicko wannabe who lives through video games since you constantly refer to them while sounding like you are substancely impaired.

      In my world, it would be really fun to end my shift and find you in the tank for cause as you would be telling everyone what a wonder expert you are (at video games, that is).

      BTW you Liberal fool, unlike you, I campaigned extensively for Trump so now justice can be served and adults are again in charge.

      • El Mac

        You campaigned for Trump? Were you able to get any of your fellow 6th graders to vote for him?
        Go away little man…go play your games now, y’hear? And if you are good, one day you can grow up and become a man and wear a real uni.

        • machgman

          Keep going, you sound loonier that Bernie and Hillary. At this rate, all we will get from you are drooling, grunts and permancy in your normal fetal position AND that thumb sucking noise.

          • El Mac

            Hillary? Is that you? Still out there dodging sniper fire? Seek help… It’s out there for you. It probably won’t cure your love of communism/socialism, but you won’t know if you don’t try.

          • machgman

            You are more irrational than when you started.

            Please, take your pills.

          • El Mac

            And you are a booger eaters still living in his Mama’s basement with illusions of grandeur. Get some help bro. You could start by getting a job no doubt.

          • machgman

            Based on your consistently 6th grade juvenile vocabulary along with your total ignorance of real life, you clearly are speaking from your own reality of sponging off of dear old mom, playing video games all day long, as well as constantly ingesting your own “boogers” since your drug habit has long killed any real appetite you once had. What a pitiful existence when the spellcheck is the closest thing you to a friend.

          • El Mac

            Friend, seek help. It’s out there. There is hope for you yet.

          • machgman

            All kidding aside, here is something vitally important.

            Seriously, we all need help.

            We all are in need of meeting and having a relationship with the one true God.

            Under God’s Law, these are all Class One Felonies: telling a
            lie, stealing anything (no matter how insignificant), idolatry, placing God anywhere below number one in your life, lusting after another, envy/jealousy, murder/hate, etc.

            Under God’s Law, even one violation of these earn you a one
            way ticket to Hell for eternity. And God’s Hell is a place of never ending punishment, darkness, burning pain, and agony.
            Hell is a million times worse than the shock of surviving a massive roadside IED or getting the crap knocked out of you from the shockwave of a RPG hit.

            However, God did something extraordinary. God sent Jesus who
            voluntarily took the punishment each of us deserve in Hell.

            If we turn to Jesus to save us by giving us credit for the
            punishment he took, and we turn away from deliberately choosing to continue to break God’s Law, then we will have no crimes on our record which allows us to be acceptable to God and escape God’s wrath of Hell. We will be allowed to enter
            Heaven Those who sincerely turn to Jesus (just like trusting in your parachute) and turn away from breaking God’s Law,
            we will still be imperfect while in this world, but in God’s eyes, we will be perfect because of what Jesus did.

            Contrary to what lots of folks believe, there will be no hanging out, co-mingling, socializing, commiserating, or partying in Hell. There is only agony, isolation, pain, and total suffering that even pain killers such as morphine or even heroin cannot alleviate.

            Each of us gets to choose where we end up. Many will be like
            the rich young ruler who could not give up his lifestyle and riches to save his own life. What will you do?

          • El Mac

            Well said! And amen!

          • machgman

            Ok, one day I will see you on the other side.

          • El Mac

            I pray that is so brother. In the meantime, Godspeed.

  • Kivaari

    I don’t object to an MP5/10 for civilian police. It’s fine. I object to 10mm handguns for police since they simply give too many negative features that offset any ballistic advantage. But if you are going to issue an Mp5, you may as well issue an M4. Keep in mind I like the MP5 and it was a duty gun for 10 years or so.
    The issue for the military is you are adding one more caliber. I hate that idea. 10mm handguns remain a poor choice for soldiers.
    The 5.7 is under powered and it has the same failing features of 10mm handguns the gun is too large. Worse is the safety system that is awkward and hard to use if you have small to medium hands.
    Who cares if a handgun cartridge is flat shooting. MOST police shootings take place at arms length. The opportunity for 100 yard shots are rare. Keep in mind it is velocity that determines drop. A bullet going 1200 fps, if 9mm or 10mm are going to drop the same.
    We issued +P+ 9mm ammo. Its as flat shooting as needed.
    So far no one has given me a good reason why a 10mm should be ISSUED to anybody. If you as a private citizen can use one well, that’s just fine. Don’t expect the average person, even with training to do as well.

  • Kivaari

    I don’t like the 10mm as a handgun caliber. For police I would not object to an MP5/10mm. The Kriss is a joke, at least in .45ACP, it has to much climb, magazines are nearly impossible to load and the muzzle is too close to the support hand.
    The 5.7 is not powerful enough. From the few after action reports I’ve seen, it neds multiple hits to do much damage. The P90 is an interesting gun. If the lethality is at least as god as a 9m I could suport its use. But it is a weenie.
    The 5.7 pistol strikes me as a toy. One I’d like to play with, but in its current form, it is unsuitable for serious use.

  • Kivaari

    Seriously, I really dislike the 10mm for an issue handgun. I know from training people to shoot that a gun that kicks as much as the 10mm is harder to train people to use well. I know that training people with .45s is harder than training them with 9mm. I’d rather have everyone shooting a lesser powered cartridge, they can hit with, than trying to make them do well with the harder to use 10mm or .45. It is why after years of using the .45 I was able to convince the agency to drop them in favor of 9mm. Poor shooting with .45s or 10mms is not a good thing. No matter that a small number of people can learn the gun. Put them next to peoplle with a 9mm and the 9mm shooter will deliver more accurate rounds with faster speeds. It’s just a matter of physics.
    If you like 10mm for yourself that is just fine by me. A big mistke many departments make is listening to the gun guy that runs the range. The guy that thinks we need the power of a 10mm or .45 to do the job. The guy that is 6’5″ and has hands like an ape. He thinks that since he can handle the gun, everyone else should be able to just so he can have the gun he wants.
    I was issued a Glock 21 .45 even though I told the boss that I would be unable to shoot it. After demonstrating that to him, I was issued the first 9mm in the department. After several training qualifications where I shot circles around the others, we ended up buying 9mm pistols for everyone. Everyone became better shots. I would rather get the target with less, but hit more precisely and quicker. The guys with the .45s could sometime hit ONCE well, then miss the target entirely or make periferal hits. It is better to x-ring the target. It is better to be able to put 9 bullets on target in the time it takes to miss with 5 .45s.
    I would never recommend issuing .45s or 10mms to police or military. I did when I was a kid, but that’s a long time ago.

  • Kivaari

    I still think 10mm is a poor choice for all the reasons I’ve stated before.

    • El Mac

      I think we get it. You don’t like the 10mm. Now please, the horse is dead.

      • Kivaari

        Tell Mazryonh. I’ve been trying to for days now.

  • Kivaari

    The Kriss “recoil reduction system” doesn’t work as advertised. A friend has a .45 and it is impossible to keep it on target and there is no reasonable way to get the magazines loaded to capacity. He owns 28 machine guns and thinks the Kriss is the worst one of the lot. Even STEN guns rank higher.

    • Mazryonh

      The STEN still ranks higher? Even with its ammunition feeding problems and its less-than-effective safety switch?

      The problem with the Glock magazines used by the Kriss SMG sounds like a manufacturing problem unless they’re aftermarket conversions that don’t have the “Glock Perfection.” You didn’t say whether or not the version owned by your friend is a kind which you can legally attach a buttstock to.

      • Kivaari

        Some stens are reliable. Handling is better. As long as you have the loading tool yoiu can load the magazine. My friend has a SOT and has the full auto Kriss. His is in .45 ACP.
        the complaints are:
        1. It is awkward
        2. The support hand gets too close to the muzzle (w/o a suppressor)
        3. Recoil is bad, it climbs off target – that speial pivoting counter weight doesn’t do a damn thing to dampen recoil.
        4. Magazines can’t be loaded anywhere near maximum

  • Kivaari

    It’s OK in the MP5. I used the 9mm Mp5 for 10 or more years and love the gun. It would not be bed in 10mm for police work. I just would not want to add another caliber to the military inventory. Also it is hugely more expensive to train with than the 9mm or 5.56mm. It remains a problem in handguns regardless of increased performance. Trade off to get the extra power and flat shooting (who cares out of a pistol) is full of negatives. We could issue .30-06 rifles again, but we get all the negative results that drove us away from the caliber. Do we want more expensive training that takes considerably more time? Do we want a gun that fits even fewer shooters then a 9mm or .40? Do we want the added weight of gun and ammo?
    I think we’ve taken this a s far as it can go. There is a group of 10mm shooters that just can’t understand that what they have done on an individual basis, just doesn’t transfer to MOST people.

    • El Mac

      The 10mm is excellent in the Mp5 as it would be in any quality SMG. As for not wanting another caliber in the military inventory…who appointed you god of military calibers?

      • Kivaari

        That’s God of common sense.

    • Mazryonh

      Well, we had an informative discussion without resorting to flaming. That’s rare enough on the internet, so I’d call it a win-win.

      We’ve actually had 7.62mm NATO SBRs for a while, from the H&K G3KA4 to the more modern FN SCAR-H CQC. I’d count the huge amount of blast and flash from each shot of those weapons as “negative results” and probably even less user-friendly than the old .30-06 rifles.

      You might also recall that the US Armed Forces adopted 5.56mm unilaterally and the other NATO nations followed suit, so adding new calibers “out of the blue” has been done before.

      • Kivaari

        The 7.62mm SBR or standard length (G3 is already short at 17 inches) brings along the negatives of the .30-06. Heavier recoil and blast.
        Even though I have a 5.56mm SBR Colt M4, it needs a suppressor. I’d promote a mid-length 16″ carbine as a standard issue.
        Remember the initial interest in the 5.56mm came from the USAF as a replacement for M2 carbines.

  • Kivaari

    We weren’t talking about MP5Ks, but that horrible Kriss. One solution for the Kriss is to add a can. You make them quiet and even more awkward. With a rate of fire like a MAC11 you can hardly keep ammo in it. With the magazines so difficult to load the so-called 25 Plus magazines (impossible to load 30 rounders) they are a challenge. I would never recommend the Kriss to anyone.
    As for the MP5K, I prefer the standard model. It’s what I used and I found it to be a excellent SMG.
    Bob’s owned and sold a pile of STEN guns. With good magazines the guns work. The biggest drawback is the need for a magazine loading tool. Handling is so superior to many SMGs. Personally, I’ve used the Sterling and I like how it handles.

    • Mazryonh

      I just meant that the Kriss could, if the company decided to, add a handstop to the handguard of their Kriss SMG like the MP5k did. As for the Standard Model of the MP5k, I believe that’s the one without a folding buttstock.