The Modern Civilian PDW Reborn? BreachBangClear Slings a Glock, and It’s Somehow Not Terrible

Mall_Ninja11

The National Firearms Act really is a drag. Thanks to its legal restrictions on short barreled rifles, some of the lightest and handiest classes of firearms are substantially restricted from common ownership in the US. The police carbine (semiautomatic short barreled pistol caliber rifles) and the PDW are two of the hardest hit classes: Both kinds of firearm are handy, easy to shoot, and inoffensive, but both are at their best with barrels under 16″, right where the NFA cuts them off.

So if we don’t want to go the NFA route and pay an extra $200 for a tax stamp and accept other legal restrictions, then what could we do instead, with just a normal 4473 transfer? BreachBangClear’s David Merrill has come up with an idea so crazy, so… Tacticool, that it just might work. I’ll let him explain:

80’s Awesome
Using a sling to increase stability and compensate for recoil on a stock-less gun isn’t a new idea. Instead of physically pulling the stock back into your shoulder, you instead push forward on the weapon to increase sling tension.

No, it’s not as good as a traditional buttstock. With the smaller size comes compromise (that’s what she said?).

You’ve Got Options…
Back to that conversation with the Yeti: options discussed included using the original lanyard hole, which is suboptimal because as you extend it forces the nose of the pistol down, and the light rail itself. The issue with the light rail is that:
-You can no longer utilize a WML
-You have to take care that the sling isn’t biased toward one side or hindering your controls

The best place to attach a sling balance- and stability-wise would probably be right on the back of the slide. But that won’t work for obvious reasons. I was contemplating this during a conversation with the aforementioned Bad Idea Enabler. One thought was to buy one of those cheap Israeli stocks, chop it down, and attach a sling to what would formerly be a cheekpiece. Another was to modify a Grip Force Adapter to accept a QD stud beyond the beavertail. Then I remembered the TSA-G ENDO Stock adapter, and how it accepts regular AR stocks.

It went something like this:
“That’s retarded. …but…
“Mall ninja as f&#!. …but…

Though when it was released the ENDO Glock stock adapter was upwards of $155, it currently sells for a small fraction of that at just $35. The adapter itself fits into the rear of the frame and is secured with a ball lock pin. More importantly, the top of the adapter is contoured to fit a Glock factory frame, which in theory should add to how secure it fits. With the encouragement of the Bad Idea Enabler, the purchase was made. I’d figure the rest out.

Setting it Up
The adapter fit my Glock 17 well with only minimal futzing. The ball lock pin came equipped with a cheezy ball chain, which was immediately broken off, thrown out, and replaced with gutted 550 cord. But how to attach the sling? One could absolutely just loop it through the adapter itself. However, I wanted QD capability and that came in the form of a $20 receiver plug from Spikes Tactical. Originally made for .22lr AR pistols, it seemed like a perfect fit for this project.

For the sling itself I went with Armageddon Gear. It’s a quick adjust, has a FASTEX clip to get out of it quickly, and also has a bungee so I can keep tension during extension. I can’t think of a better option here. The particular model I had originally came with an Hk hook, which I replaced with a standard strap. Both ends of the strap were fed through a standard QD loop and secured.

[Readers should note that I’ve chopped this excerpt quite a bit to just give our readers the basic idea. I highly recommend they click through and read David’s entire discussion.]

Mall_Ninja05

The end result. Much ninja. Very wow. Image source: breachbangclear.com

 

Aesthetically, David has ruined a perfectly good Glock 17. Practically, though, I – who put silver duct-tape on my guns and am an avowed enemy of the tacticool – am increasingly fond of the idea. It does not have the disadvantages of the pistol-caliber carbine while having probably 90% of the advantages, thanks to a red dot sight and the stabilizing sling. In many ways, it’s worse than a pistol-caliber SBR, but in a couple of ways it’s probably better (concealability and draw speed). Most importantly, it circumvents my primary objection to slung rifle-based pistols, which is their weight, size, and general ungainliness when held in two hands. Without tension on the sling, Merrill’s slung Glock 17 is still basically a Glock 17 with an RDS rig, and that’s OK. The best part in my eyes is that the whole setup isn’t particularly expensive. Not including the Aimpoint and light, it costs only about $840 to put together, which is less than the MSRP of a Scorpion Evo (and – for my comments section – yes, Glocks take Glock magazines!).

Lothaen over at LooseRounds wrote last year that he thought the pistol was becoming the civilian PDW, thanks to modern red dot sights and mounts. Is the ENDO stock adapter with a sling swivel the missing ingredient for the true rise of the civilian PDW, or just a harebrained concept?



Nathaniel F

Nathaniel is a history enthusiast and firearms hobbyist whose primary interest lies in military small arms technological developments beginning with the smokeless powder era. In addition to contributing to The Firearm Blog, he runs 196,800 Revolutions Per Minute, a blog devoted to modern small arms design and theory. He can be reached via email at nathaniel.f@staff.thefirearmblog.com.


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  • Rnasser Rnasser

    Ahem… I’ll stick with the basic pistol, thanks.

  • RSG

    For me, I’ll take an AR pistol or even the SBR route (for an EVO) before considering this project. Fwiw. This would be a last resort and only for states that don’t allow NFA firearms.

  • Carl Mumpower

    This was fun – and exhausting! In an increasingly crazy world, K.I.S.S. is increasingly important destination.

  • DanGoodShot

    Soooo when not in use it doubles as your “Jesus peice”? Yo

    • iksnilol

      Reminds me of how Tuco kept his gun on a rope around his neck.

      • mbrd

        “when you want to shoot, shoot, don’t talk!”

  • Sean

    lol “Aesthetically, David has ruined a perfectly good Glock 17.” He says with no trace of irony. But very cool concept, like how they used to use old Ingram subguns.

    • valorius

      As if a glock has any aesthetics at all!

      • Sean

        Exactly.

    • noob

      if that is wild how about this airsoft accessory by SRU – a bullpup glock stock that turns your glock into an unholy lovechild of a p90 and a micro-uzi.

      actually, if the SRU glock bullpup stock was made in milled aluminium or gun grade reinforced polymer, and was fitted with a shroud to cover the slide instead of the comical “DO NOT CROSS” marking where the slide reciprocates, it could possibly be practical.

  • Nicholas C

    I’ve dabbled with this a few years ago using a SIG ACP with my Glock 21 inside. I did not find it stable pressing out with a sling compared to shouldering a conventional rifle.

    • AMX

      Well, that much is to be expected – but how did it compare on “not getting in the way while I do something else”?

      • Nicholas C

        I prefer using a holster. I have a similar pistol setup as the one in this article and I have a holster for it by OTG holsters.

        • AMX

          Sorry, I think I phrased that wrong.
          Let me try again:

          Pistol+sling is obviously less stable than pistol+stock, but I would expect it to be more convenient to carry; while still being more stable than pistol only.

          Does that match your experience?

  • AMX

    Wasn’t the Steyr TMP/SPP designed with this in mind?

    • Raven

      I’ve heard of using an MP5K in the same way. Can’t remember if it was SEALs, some personal protection team or what, but the non-PDW model MP5K is intended to be run with a sling on the rear plate.

      • Anonymoose

        The MP5A1 and MP5K were originally set up that way. The SAS and just about everyone used to run their MP5Ks that way, and that’s how you have to use an MP5A3 if you have to spring into action without time to pull out the stock.

  • thedonn007

    Could I replace the sling with a sig brace?

  • PeterK

    I’ve thought about using a sling to stabilize a pistol. It’s definitely an interesting concept.

  • TheNotoriousIUD

    Is there a gun under all that crap?

    • mbrd

      hahahaha!!!

  • derfelcadarn

    If concealability were a real concern all the BS on the outside of this cartoon character of a gun would be gone. When carrying a handgun how likely is it that one will be engaging targets at extreme ranges ? It would be difficult to justify a deadly threat at ranges this would be a positive factor. Having said this, I admit that every Tackleberry and his bro is going to want two of them. This plays right into the gun controllers hands, is there any possibility of getting some zombie BS included to top off this pipe dream ?

    • Tom of Toms

      If you actually read the article, you might understand that he has no real expectation to conceal this gun. It is as a hotel nightstand or vehicle gun. As an alternative to a rifle or shotgun which cannot legally be kept loaded and accessible in a vehicle. Like your supposed enemy: jump to conclusions! damn the facts!

      • Drink the kool-aid

        NEVER SUBSTITUTE A RIFLE FOR A PISTOL WHEN YOU GET TO CHOOSE.

        • Tom of Toms

          Because your all-caps, doctrine-or-death rebuttal isnt fruit punch flavored?

      • valorius

        If you want a pistol in lieu of your long gun that can be legally stored in a car, buy an AR pistol with a sig brace.

        • Tom of Toms

          I get you. The guy who wrote the article gets it, too. But as AD said, why not let people explore options for us? I remember this one time a guy forward-mounted a scope on a rifle…

          • valorius

            If you ask me forward mounting a scope on a rifle is as dumb now as it was then. 😉

            I can see wanting options- but a slung Glock is vastly inferior as a defensive weapon than an AR pistol with a sig brace.

        • Dakota Raduenz

          California. Maryla- wait didn’t they ban Glock? Anyway- Illinois. Etc.

          Pistol that isn’t AR flavored could be useful in some locales. I personally like the AR pistol concept, but I live in a free state surrounded mostly by free states anyway. IL is next door, but I’d have to cross the whole of the state to get there!

          • austin kropp

            ar pistols are legal in IL. that’s the closest you can get to an sbr though

  • AD

    Interesting. I feel like if it’s just sitting around the house for home defense then there’s better options, but it’s not quite practical enough to actually carry around for everyday use (but might be fine for specific situations?). Though it’s getting close; cut out the half-stock thing and just attach the sling directly to the weapon somehow (it would have to be quick to attach and detach obviously) and we’re talking.

    Well, it looks like a fun range gun anyway. I certainly don’t think we should be so scared of being labelled “mall ninjas” that we aren’t willing to try something that could turn out to be practical.

    • valorius

      It’s just another product answering a question no one asked.

      • Tom of Toms

        What exactly is he selling?

        • valorius

          Not much of anything, i suspect.

      • Brett

        Non-linear thinking, bro.

      • DonDrapersAcidTrip

        hard not to do that when the only questions you rocket scientists ever want to ask is “does it take glock magazines”

  • Ambassador Vader

    I’ll just pay the $200

    • Anonymoose

      And then never be able to take that Glock across state lines without getting ATF approval first. There is a reason why we have 11.5″ AR “pistols” and “one-stamp guns”…
      Of course if you did get an SBR stamp you could use the stock adapter as intended and even put a foregrip on the rail mount (but I would use a longslide model for that if I were you).

      • Ambassador Vader

        It’s true you’ll always be confined, but for me that isn’t an issue. The more people try to cutely skirt around the NFA the more it all turns into a bad infomercial. The real problem between all of them; the NFA.

  • car54

    Before the pistol brace was invented for ARs I had a one point sling on my AR pistol. It was attached at the end of the buffer tube and was used exactly as described in the article. When fully extended and taught it was very stable. The same concept has been used on large hunting handguns as well. It works well for that application, i.e, large, heavy pistols.

    I don’t really see the point of putting a sling on a conventional pistol that is light, maneuverable and easily carried in a holster.

  • Andrew Benton

    I think the money would be better spent on ammo and practice.

  • TexianPatriot

    Thanks to its (il)legal restrictions on short barreled rifles.

    There, fixed that for you.

  • Harry’s Holsters

    I made a prototype QD mount for glock that fit in the butt of the frame. It didn’t tighten my groups any what so ever so I abandoned the project.

    This looks like it may work better considering the sling mount is closer to the axis of the slide but I can’t see this being practical for anything but fun at the range and there is nothing wrong with that.

  • valorius

    A nod here to the C96 Mauser- the original PDW.

  • Justin Roney

    One of the biggest advantages of a pistol is the ability to conceal it. If you’re going to do away with that, I’d just as soon carry something *slightly* larger like an mp5k, or better yet a pistol AR with PDW collapsable arm brace and have the ability to penetrate body armor.

  • Lothaen

    Thanks for the shout out nathaniel

  • noob

    i wonder if this will work with a longer 16″ carbine barrel or will it be very badly balanced?

    • Anonymoose

      You could get one of those 9″ Lone Wolf barrels. If you go for a 16″ barrel you may as well actually use a stock.

  • Cymond

    Why a tax stamp and an arm brace?
    Why not a stamp and stock, or tax-free brace?

    • billyoblivion

      If you don’t get the tax stamp you can’t legally shoulder the weapon.

      • Cymond

        Yeah, I know that.

        If you’re gonna pay the tax, then why not use a real stock?

        • billyoblivion

          Lessee, this needs to get put delicately.

          To quote the Cyberpunk Author William Gibson, “The street finds it’s own use for things” (more or less, that’s from memory). Legally you can’ shoulder a “brace”. But physically it would work if you needed it to.

          So you can legally carry a pistol with a brace on it pretty much anywhere you can legally carry a pistol. Then if something happens that gives you a choice between breaking a law to stop it, and letting a horrible thing happen you have the ability.

          • Cymond

            OK, you have presented good reasons to have a registered SBR, and good reasons to have a pistol with a brace.

            I still don’t see any reason for a registered SBR with a pistol brace. It just seems like to worst of both worlds: the tax and bureaucracy of a SBR but the worse ergonomics of a brace.

  • Cymond

    It reminds me of the “Not a Stock” Glock concept from Suarez and published by Short Barrel Shepherd.

    I think it’s worth trying, and it’s on my list of projects.

    https://shortbarrelshepherd.com/the-not-stock-glock-concept/
    https://shortbarrelshepherd.com/not-stock-glock-pdw-update/
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/214616b069f8418f7a0a62bf1279a81772f3270ae6e99a7733756719e7effe43.jpg

  • jestertoo

    I’m a little worried about the glock being slung around the front of the body with an exposed trigger and no safety. Running/swinging/etc could easily snag it on something.

  • NeoBlackdog

    “Is the ENDO stock adapter with a sling swivel the missing ingredient for the true rise of the civilian PDW, or just a harebrained concept?”
    Yes!

  • jamezb

    I had a Iver Johnson Enforcer along with a couple single barrel 12 gauge 26″ shotguns that were set up with a “Whippit” sling / ‘stock’ like this. – it was a very workable concept.

  • Parashooter

    As mentioned in the article, you cannot legally put a shoulder stock on a pistol without first getting a $200 tax stamp from ATF – because it is now an SBR (Short Barreled Rifle) And watching that video – you can see the optic and rail flexing/wobbling around, and that’s only on an airsoft LOL!!!

  • Longrange

    For target shooting a leather sling between a Parabellum (Luger for Yanks 🙂 or lahti pistol and the shooter was widely used (and still is) for military pistol target shooting. That is one handed pistol shooting with the help of the sling so it has nothing to do with combat shooting but for accuracy it helps.

    SAS used to shoot MP5A3:s with the stock in forward position (ie. in closed position) and using a tight sling. Shorter weapon length helped moving in tight spaces with the gun and sling steadied the gun when shooting terrorists. Systems was accurate enough for short bursts inside a Boing 727 or DC-9.

  • maodeedee

    The only thing wrong with the Endo adaptor is that they will NOT fit my full sized Glock 20SF or my mid-sized G23 that I have 9mm and 357 sig barrels for as well as a 9mm 50 round drum mag for use with the KKM 40-to-9 conversion barrel.

    The G23 is the one gun I would most like to be able to use this arrangement. For the G20SF, I just need to spend a lot more money to get a MecTech upper, sights, and stock for the 10mm.

  • LouisianaJoe

    I am kind of old school. (71 years old). I have used a PR-24 as a non attached shoulder stock with a handgun. You just put the short end of the PR-24 under your armpit, side handle against your shoulder, grasp the other end with your support hand, then place the grip of the pistol on top of the support hand. It is as solid as an attached stock. I have put all shots into a paper plate at 100 yds using this technique.