As Close to Practical Full-Auto as One Can Get – MAC Shoots the “Echo”

Capture

Yes, the varrous “bump fire” stocks are enjoyable to shoot, but they have limited practical utility. With one pushing the weapon forward, maintaining aim (which is usually accomplished by pulling the gun to the rear) is pretty much out the window.

Fostech Outdoors, known for their Origin 12 shotgun has been hard at work pushing the letter of the law to its limit. Their fire and release trigger, known as the “Echo” trigger incorporates a major feature that the previous offerings like those from Franklin Armory have debuted.Β 

The crux of the pull on fire and release triggers has been the propensity of them to have “hammer follow” malfunctions. Shooters of the systems have been able to pull and release the trigger faster than the bolt carrier would return to battery. While this can be slightly alleviated by using lightweight parts, it can sacrifice some reliability.

The Fostech Echo system seeks to correct that by incorporating the use of a sear, much like that in a fully-automatic firearm. The instead of releasing the hammer, the sear is used to engage a second disconnector which ensures the hammer is not released until the carrier is back in battery. In short, the gun cannot have a hammer follow malfunction.

Release is set for later this year, but triggers are starting to show up in the wild. Tim from Military Arms Channel get his hands on one of the few near production models in the wild.

 



Nathan S.

One of TFB’s resident Jarheads, Nathan now works within the firearms industry. A consecutive Marine rifle and pistol expert, he enjoys local 3-gun, NFA, gunsmithing, MSR’s, & high-speed gear. Nathan has traveled to over 30 countries working with US DoD & foreign MoDs.

Nathan can be reached at Nathan.S@TheFirearmBlog.com

The above post is my opinion and does not reflect the views of any company or organization.


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  • Klaus Von Schmitto

    Never bought into the bump miss nonsense or any of the other bolt following triggers but this seems like it would be a ton of fun. Also not much for 500 dollar accesories on 1000 dollar guns either but I think this is going to be an exception.

    • Repoman3737

      It makes sense if you build a gun from parts. A good trigger $180-$280 a bolt carrier assembly $150-$250. So somewhere between $330-$530 for good quality parts with no echo fire ability. For $100 more to $50 less on high end parts you can have echo fire. These numbers don’t apply if you are trying to build the cheapest AR you can. But if you want a quality mid to high end the price difference is almost nothing. I will definitely go that route on my next build. Even if I rarely use it since it adds very little to the build having controlled double tap option is well worth it.

      • WRBuchanan

        Quality is useless if you don’t know how to use it, Spend the money on a school and learn how to use your gun. You’ll be light years ahead if you do.
        The vast majority,,, and I mean 95% of AR users will never shoot their guns enough to justify the cost of your Quality Parts. The average Cheap AR is a 10,000 round gun with virtually no maintenance other than cleaning. Really surprising how well these guns shoot after they are broke in. AND you can always upgrade if you really feel the need.

        • Repoman3737

          You are right about quality and most people won’t see the benefits of this product other than the smile factor and there is nothing wrong with building or buying a $500 dollar AR the quality of them can be quite good. My point was depending on how you build or buy your AR this trigger/bolt carrier could be used for no extra cost or considerable extra cost depending on the type of parts you would have used or replaced on your AR. Every gun needs a trigger so if you can have one that helps with controlled double taps, can give you an almost full auto rate of fire, still shoot in semi mode for maybe no extra cost, it seems like an easy choice to me. Some people just like highend custom parts in their guns just like people do with custom cars. There is a reason Baskin Robins has 31 flavors, because not everyone likes vanilla.

  • thedonn007

    I want one, but I would like to know for sure that it will work with .22 lr before I invest $479.

    • Nandor

      The Fostech version requires a special bolt carrier group, so it wouldn’t work with .22lr for now.

      • thedonn007

        The bolt carrier is provided, but it is not required. It just prevents the hammer follow issue.

        • Nandor

          Well, if I told you that your AR-15 would randomly stop working without a certain part, we’d probably accept that the part was required, right? πŸ™‚

          • DC

            For a .22? Eh, not required. A trigger like this on a 22 would be a toy. On a center fire rifle? Absolutely agree.

      • Jambo

        How “special” is that bolt carrier, though? Seemed to me to just be an extra cut. I wonder how hard it would be to machine.

  • Cytoxan

    This mimics the “auto response trigger” found in paintball guns ( auto mag ) , circa mid 1990’s, except in paintball, it chopped a lot of balls. I’m sure Hillary will be ok with this trigger.

    • Reef Blastbody

      The ball chopping is due to the very delicate nature of paintballs and the feed system. I’m sure the paintball marker makers could devise a feed system that eliminates or minimizes breakage, but said engineering costs would be passed on to the consumers. Brass (or steel or whatever) cartridge casings are a bit more robust. πŸ˜€

    • Malthrak

      In paintball guns, a good hopper solved a lot of this, but fundamentally the ammo is…less compliant. A lot of later guns moved to electronic triggers with a laser “eye” that would not close the bolt until a ball was in place and largely fixed such issues when paired with an assited feed hopper.

    • Dan

      We had to use that massive motorized feed system I forgot what the heck it was called. Hoppers went on the that and it had two discs that force fed the paintballs into the gun. All this before force fed hoppers came out. Life got easier when guns with the eyes came out.

  • noob

    I wonder what would happen if you devised a push pull trigger with hammer follow protection and some kind of grip safety – if you pulled the trigger and did *not* in fact want the second shot you could remove your palm or thumb from the secondary device and safely release the trigger without firing the second shot?

    • Nandor

      The Fostech trigger allows you to switch the safety from the third position back to semi or safe, after the trigger has been pulled, so the release won’t fire the round.

  • valorius

    I know a few guys with bumpfire stocks that can shoot every bit as accurately at self defense ranges as a regular full auto.

    That being said….full auto is a waste of ammo IMO.

    • jeff

      this. it is fun, there is no reason for it to be regulated, but it is spooky so it was banned. And that is the reason stuff like this exists. Stuff like bump fire or even the echo trigger shows how dumb the laws are in the us.

      • valorius

        I agree, but i would be willing to wager that the new Echo trigger will be banned within a year or two. I’m frankly amazed the bumpfire stocks haven’t gotten nixed by the ATF.

        • jeff

          if the atf wants to ban bumpfire stocks they would have to say bumpfiring is illegal, and I do not think that is a thing the atf wants to do, because bumpfire is one shot per function of the trigger, and if they did that then the whole machine gun classification would be under scrutiny

          • AirborneSoldier

            Batf can and will rule as it likes. Pols will support them, unless enough of us get riled up in specific circumstances. I think the bumpfire stocks are ugly as sin. Dont have one, wont. But that is my choice. If you like it, great.

        • jcitizen

          There is no way they’d ban the Echo trigger, because it actually enforces the rules of semi-auto fire – one trigger pull for one hammer fall. If the hammer follows the bolt in the instances the Echo prevents, it doesn’t fire either, but technically violates the tenet of the regulation, even though the problems are actually dynamics and not intent to violate the regulation.

          • valorius

            “No way” they’d ban it? I think you’re being very, very optimistic my friend.

          • jcitizen

            The bump stock maybe, the trigger? Hell they’d have to ban all semi-autos( which wouldn’t surprise me with Hillary). All semi-autos require a secondary sear – none I’ve seen since this one keeps the hammer from following the bolt if the secondary sear is missed during function. When I was a kid messing around with junk, we used to file off the secondary sear just to find out what would happen – the hammers were not heavy enough to set off the primers, so we added weight to the hammer until it would set off the primers. Then we destroyed the junk firearms after having our full auto fun, so as not to get caught playing around like that. I’m fairly familiar with these situations, and also the BATF regs, I’ve won many an argument with the agents when I was a Class 3 SOT.

          • valorius

            If hillary gets elected, i guarantee you at some point a ban of semi auto “assault rifles” will be attempted to be passed.

            I would delete your post, since it is an admission of willfully and knowingly violated the NFA. That sort of post could get you in lots of trouble if you ever end up in court.

            Just sayin’.

          • jcitizen

            I was a kid – that was over 45 years ago – there is a thing called the statute of limitations, that exist for everything but murder ( so far) Heh!

    • gunsandrockets

      I hate that term ‘bumpfire’, but it seems to have stuck. Oh, well.

      I think the potential of ‘bumpfire’ is underrated by many. I suspect a properly adjusted set-up with a bipod in the prone position might be fairly practical.

      • valorius

        Will the bumpfire stocks work with a bipod? I think it would have to somehow be free-floated, wouldnt it?

        • gunsandrockets

          Depends on the bipod. Most rifle bipods sold as accessories are stiff devices intended to aid ordinary rifle shooting.

          But LMG bipods are deliberately designed to have some flex to them, since that way the bipod feet stay planted as the firearm moves under recoil, which improves the accuracy of the burst.

          • valorius

            If you could make a bipod with a slider type device that allows the gun to “rock” fore to aft on firing, it should work fine. But i dont think a typical commerical bipod would get the job done.

        • Lee Enfield

          Plenty of you tubes showing standard bumpfire stocks being used with a bipod. Instead of pushing forward on the handguard you just push at the top of bipod.

          • valorius

            Interesting. Thanks.

    • Anonymoose

      Controlled full-auto can be very effective at dumping rounds into a target, especially with PCCs/SMGs.

      • valorius

        With lots of training, and at very close range, sure.
        -An ex US Army infantryman. πŸ˜‰

      • valorius

        figured i should add, the FN P90 is an exception to the “lots of practice” rule. Those things are super controllable in full auto.

    • AirborneSoldier

      Agree. Except in the final assault of an objective when you are clearing fighting positions, or in cqb, but how many of will do that?

  • Reef Blastbody

    A coworker who hunts feral hogs here in TX opined that a 2 round burst feature would be excellent for helping ensure that you put the hog down with the first trigger pull.

    As for defensive use, I could see some application, what with this giving you the ability to deliver an aimed controlled pair of shots into a target before you have to recover your sight picture after the initial recoil impulse.

    Having had a few opportunities to shoot true FA, I agree, it’s really, really fun ( giggle switch is an apt term), and in a very limited set of circumstances, it is also eminently useful to make adversaries seek cover/concealment whilst your teammates move to flank them. About the only time an ordinary citizen would even begin to need something like this would be a post-Hurricane Katrina New Orleans or LA riots breakdown of LE/EMS coverage, i.e. the police and paramedics are overwhelmed or simply not around for days to weeks, and criminals, either the organized variety or mobs of opportunists, decide to take advantage of the lack of LE presence.

    Fostech does have the opinion letter from BATFE, for whatever that’s worth. I’d like to put one in a CMMG Mutant, personally, though the need for their proprietary BCG might nix that idea.

    • Cymond

      The proprietary bolt carrier definitely nixes it in a Mutant, unless the Mutant’s carrier can be machined to match. Someone needs to do a side by side comparison of an Echo carrier to a standard carrier.

  • Harry’s Holsters

    This is for the guys that have a machine gun ammo budget but not the upfront capital for a transferable machine gun. I’d love to have one but I can’t support the ammo cost.

    • totenglocke

      Well with this, it’s just a new option on your selector. Switch it over when you just want to have some fun on the range, then flip it back to regular semi-automatic mode afterwards.

      • Harry’s Holsters

        I get that but for my purposes I’d rather have an SSA and not spend an extra $250 for a feature I’ll use for 150 rounds once a year.

  • Sermon 7.62

    Doesn’t it defeat the intention of the select-fire rifles ban? Stupid. It should be banned, too. And flamethrowers as well. It’s just a matter of time until some idiot decides to use this sh*t in the next mass shooting in the US. And then, expect the Big Ban. He’ll be back.

    • Joe

      It is incredibly easy for ANYONE let alone a dedicated criminal/terrorist to get ahold of fully Automatic Firearms. The NFA laws haven’t stopped crap. Go home.

      • Sermon 7.62

        Did I mention criminals or terrorists? No, I said “idiot”. Most of these mass shootings are commited by regular people, so go and catch a Pokemon.

        • john huscio

          Dumb laws were meant to be flouted.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Than, the Big Ban is coming up. No doubt that Nurse Ratched is gonna get it right this time. Once and for all.

        • Ambassador Vader

          I can’t tell if your just baiting or actually believe that garbage. Either way if you don’t like it, don’t buy it.

        • Scott Connors

          You have a very screwed-up idea of what constitutes “regular people.” Every one of the mass murderers that panic the public had red flags: mental health issues, domestic violence, history of petty crime, religious extremism, etc. _None_ of them were people who just got up one day and “snapped.” And Joe is correct: I live in California, and even here there are illegal NFA items available if one so desires. Recently a raid on a marijuana outfit netted a MG42 and some other MGs.

          • Sermon 7.62

            So might it make sense to check people for issues like that before selling them guns? And clear the streets of illegal ones? This is the model that is used in Europe. No mass shootings here.

          • Longhaired Redneck

            No mass shootings in Europe? Maybe if you pulled your head back out of the dark hole you apparently keep it in, you would have read a headline or two in the last decade, or even the last few weeks! Go back to covering the rear bumper of your ’87 Plymouth K-car with “Hillary 2016” stickers and leave the grown-ups alone.

          • Sermon 7.62

            I can see that most Yankees are dumb, of course, but it doesn’t seem to me that I’m posting something complicated here. Make an effort to understand it. It’s all comparable.

            “Several mass shootings have occurred in Europe, including the November 2015 Paris attacks, the 2012 Toulouse and Montauban shootings, the 2011 Norway attacks, the 2009 Winnenden school shooting, the 2008 Kauhajoki school shooting, the 2001 Zug massacre, the 2002 Erfurt massacre, the 1987 Hungerford massacre, the 1990 Puerto Hurraco massacre and the 2010 Cumbria shootings.”

            So, in comparison to the US, there’s no mass shootings in Europe.

            “…it has been estimated in one study that 31% of public mass shootings occur in the US, although it has only 5% of the world’s population.”

          • Repoman3737

            The la times had an article in the last 3 days about mass shootings adjusted for population U.S. vs E.U. and that was where the U.S. came in 12th in one place and 5th in the other so we are not 1st when you compare same size populations. Just like comparing one state to the whole country its not a fair comparison if you dont account for population.

          • Sermon 7.62

            In December 2015, the Washington Post reported that there had been 355 mass shootings in the United States so far that year.

            The Washington Post
            December 2, 2015

            The San Bernardino shooting is the second mass shooting today and the 355th this year

            “The number of mass shootings so far this year has already surpassed the total number of mass shootings in 2014, according to the Reddit tracker. And the pace is well above 2013’s pace, when a total of 363 mass shootings occurred.”

          • Repoman3737

            The definition of mass shooting that they use is not widely accepted. Even mother Jones a very liberal source does not agree with that number. Under their definition it counts every shooting of more than 4 people regardless of justified or not,extent of injury,and a few other questionable criteria. I cant link it but look at the la times from a couple days ago the titlebis something like mass shooting adjusted for population. It very detailed and has alot of sources to back it up. I have to go back to driving now

          • Longhaired Redneck

            If you believe what the Washington Post prints, then you are already brain dead, and I’m pulling the plug on you…

          • Sermon 7.62

            Are the statistics incorrect?

          • Repoman3737

            Under their definition of mass shooting these examples count

            1. 4 criminals get in gunfight amongst themselves all 4 shot regardless of how severe the injury its a mass shooting.
            2. 2 police get in gun fight with 3 armed criminals. Both cops shot superficial wounds 1 criminal dies of gun shot one shot in leg. It would be mass shooting according to washington post definition.
            3. Home owner shoots 3 criminals in home invasion none die he is shot and killed. It would also fall under their definition of mass shooting.
            4.criminal walks into gunfree zone with handgun and starts shooting. All said and done he shoots 20 kills 10 and himself. This is a mass shooting. The accepted definition is basically when 1 or more gunmen open fire unprevoked on a group of unrelated people and try to kill as many as possible. Its not the word for word definition but its basically it. There is also some room for interpretation but my first 3 examples are not mass shootings but lots on the left count them as such.

          • Sermon 7.62

            So, in Europe there’s a different definition? No.

          • Repoman3737

            It doesn’t matter what europes definition is the issue was as you stated America is responsible for the majority of mass shooting and Washington post states that x amount have happened. I’m pointing out that the number is way inflated based on the way they count mass shootings. I never got into Europes definition because the U.S. number is so over inflated. The article I mentioned in the L.A. times gives a true number of mass shootings in both places and then compares them and that’s where we came in 5th and 12th in mass shootings world over. It doesn’t matter how Europe defines it if the U.S. numbers are so over inflated you will never get a real comparison that way.

          • Sermon 7.62

            It doesn’t matter as long as the same criterias and methods are used for evaluation. The aforementioned quotation, “While U.S. has 5% of the world’s population, it sees about 31% of public mass shootings…” refers to the research conducted by the National Center for Biotechnology Information.

            Public Mass Shooters and Firearms: A Cross-National Study of 171 Countries

          • Repoman3737

            They are not using the same criterias and if you count the ones in america correctly we are talking about a much smaller number that will then be compared to whatever the European number ends up being. If the U.S number is over inflated to 350 or whatever it was it will make a huge difference if the true numbers end up being 30 U.S. 10 EU instead of 350 U.S 17 EU. That is v really how overestimated the U,S. Numbers are. Then you factor for population and the U.S is not that much different from other countries. Remember these are mass shootings numbers not overall gun deaths.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Again, one research, one set of criterias for all countries.

          • Repoman3737

            The numbers may be over inflated in EU also but they are definitely over inflated in USA so it doesn’t matter if you use the same criteria in all countries if the criteria is wrong. If I want to know haw many green houses 2 towns have but I count red houses also can I then give you an accurate number of green houses in both towns just because I counted the same color houses in both towns? No I didn’t count just the green houses I added red ones too. Just like if I count mass shootings in 2 countries but I include other types of shootings in my count there is no way to tell you how many mass shootings happened in each location so comparing the 2 places based on those numbers is useless.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Again.

            It doesn’t matter if the shooting is a “mass shooting”, according to a one set of criterias, or is not. The comparison is still true, because a shooting is still a shooting.

          • Repoman3737

            Now you are changing criteria because this back and forth started with you a quoting a Washington post article stating USA had 350 mass shooting compared to whatever the number was in EU and that the USA had the most mass shooting in the world. I disputed that and the criteria used to determine what is a mass shooting is and you and I went back and forth about that. Now after I show it matters how you determine the type of shooting when you are comparing the numbers in different locations you change to all shootings when the whole time we were talking about just mass shootings. All shootings and mass shootings are 2 very different things. It’s typical your argument fell apart so it’s time to change the facts and muddy the waters of what we were discussing. I’m not starting over with you I’m done since you decided to change the whole point we were arguing.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Again.

            The numbers come from the scientific research that I referred to, so the definitions don’t matter here, since the topic of the research is the gun-related acts of violence, call it a mass shooting, a non-mass shooting, or something else.

          • Repoman3737

            Again to you…
            You quoted a specific article with a specific number of a specific type of shooting (mass shootings) that was compared between 2 specific places the USA and EU. I said that number is inflated and not accepted even by liberal standards like mother jones. If the numbers are wrong than the comparison is wrong it doesn’t matter if both sides have wrong numbers they are still wrong. You never mentioned all shootings even once every response you gave said mass shootings until your argument completly fell apart then all of a sudden you pretend we have been talking about all shootings of any type anywhere anytime. Mass shootings and shootings are 2 different things and even the so called scientific research you quoted from the Washington post was only talking about mass shootings. To now try to change the subject you and I were discussing just proves the argument anti gun people make does not hold up. You can continue your mental gymnastics to now try to twist your argument to fit your narrative but it’s to late. Just go back and re-read our back and forth and if your honest you will see you tried to switch the subject at the end to all shootings from just mass shootings.

          • Sermon 7.62

            A Pokemon is waiting for you somewhere. Go catch it.

          • Repoman3737

            Typical liberal gun hater when facts get in the way of your argument try to make new facts or change the details of what you were arguing about. When that doesn’t work try to insult or dismiss the person you can’t beat in the argument. Not sure what you were trying to say are you a Pokemon fan or is that your Jamaican lover the pokey mon? I was done with you awhile ago and had dropped the Mike and walked off stage but you kept spouting nonsense and I was bored so I answered you. Feel free to stop digging your own hole anytime you want. I’m going to go tow a car and make some money while you think that over..

          • L Cavendish

            Brevick comes to mind…Charlie Hebdo…but rare…
            There are ways to get illegal guns….but not PC…too many brown people have the illegal ones…sorry but it is true…
            train K9s for guns/powder (already done)…use the already existing gunshot detectors in big cities to target problem areas…when K9 reacts you have probable cause for a search (required here in USA)…when you find a gun you then run a search for the suspect’s vehicles and residences…get warrants for those…search anybody at those locations as well…continue as necessary
            nobody has the balls to actually do this…as it will put way more brown people behind bars than whites

          • Sermon 7.62

            A pardon might be granted to those that bring the illegal guns.

          • L Cavendish

            UK seems to have a lot of pedophiles when I read the news…perhaps they should be weeded out as well…
            you see the difficulty…right?

          • Sermon 7.62

            No.

        • Joe

          Regular people that commit heinous crimes such as murder are not referred to as “idiots” they are criminals and terrorists.
          Name one mass shooting that has occurred in the U.S. involving machine guns of any type against non-criminal victims. I could care less if a gang members kills rival gang members with a spork, Uzi or a Flamethrower.
          After the Nice mass Assault Truck killing rampage we should honestly worry more about big rigs, bulldozers, and buses than a pull/release trigger.

          • Sermon 7.62

            That’s the point!

            If most shootings are commited using legal guns, then, like I said, it’s a matter of time until some idiot is going to use some of these flamethrowers or bumpfire stocks.

          • Joe

            It’s only a matter of time till someone does something illegal with an object. Let’s ban said object! = Flawed logic.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Depends on the object. No one needs a flamethrower for self-defense, right?

          • Joe

            Who said anything about self defense? At this point a good defense is a good defense. Fire still has its place in warfare.

          • Sermon 7.62

            So, if not for self-defense or for sport, then for what does one might need a flamethrower in the US?

          • Stinkeye

            Noxious and invasive weed control, for one. Flamethrowers have legitimate agricultural uses, and historically, more have been sold to farmers than have been bought by the military.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Flamethrowers are sold in the gun stores, as far as I know.

          • Stinkeye

            So? Rat poison is sold in the grocery store. Machetes are sold in the hardware store. You can buy guns and ammo at some farm supply stores. Who cares where you buy it? It’s whether or not you misuse it that matters, isn’t it?

            Also, I’ve been in dozens of gun stores in several states, and have never seen a flamethrower for sale. Not saying there aren’t gun stores that might sell them, but it’s not exactly a common thing.

          • Sermon 7.62

            You should get one. For self-defence.

    • DZ

      Who is paying you, and how many cents per post do you get?

      In all seriousness, your plan for avoiding the “big ban” is by banning things? I have a feeling you are about 50 something and played an important role in giving up our rights to please the statists so you could keep your bolt gun or shotgun. Unfortunately for you the newer generation of gun owners have far more spine than you and yours.

      Its time for us to reclaim our rights, go on the offensive, not one more step back.

      • DZ

        I want to make it clear, plenty of older folks are just as hard in their stances on gun rights and in a larger scale, freedom. Most of my shooting buddies are 30+ years older than I, they have great insight on what happened during the ban years, now the see the impact it has on new gun owners.

      • Sermon 7.62

        Because of all the sh*t that is happening in the US other countries suffer. Each time that some clinical moron starts shooting people on the streets of some American hole the discussion about banning the gun rights resumes here in Europe.

        • DZ

          Ok lets try again. Thanks mods for not just editing the part of the post you disagreed with.

          Now you being a euro gun owner makes sense, I wish you guys had the right to own arms as we do, unfortunately from my understanding gun ownership in euro countries are more privilege than right.

          Let me tell you, throwing others under the bus will never acomplish anything. They will use anything as an excuse to ban the civilian ownership of arms, the moment you decide the laws are unjust, and those who make them are against you, then you can try and make change.

          We had a war of independence to break away from the ideals and traditions of European rulers. This influences our culture of freedom, and noncompliance.

          • Sermon 7.62

            In Europe in general, there are more stringent rules. In Slovenia, Czech Republic and some other countries the situation is not as bad as people think. In some places people can possess all kinds of guns but not suppressors, in other places people can possess suppressors but not fine guns. So there is a lot to be done to bring it all to a more sensible state.

        • Edeco

          Sounds like you disagree with your leaders and/or neighbors but can’t control them.

    • gunsandrockets

      The Firearms Blog — guns, not politics!

      • Joe

        You cannot have one without the other. If there was an open and active assault on free speech you wouldn’t find blogs covering any topic without at least acknowledging the threat to their covered subject.

    • L Cavendish

      As to flames…couple of super soakers and a lighter…or on a larger scale …a pressure washer set up to spray flammable fluid from a larger tank…mounted in a truck.
      Poison gas= bleach + ammonia
      Last French attack= truck

      • Sermon 7.62

        That’s not the same thing.

  • Frank

    So in theory you could trick up the gas system/buffer in some way to give you a super high ROF and you could simulate that 2 round burst that the AN94 has?

    • Risky

      Not really, it still won’t fire the second round until you release the trigger so it will always be limited to just how fast your fingers are.

      • jeff

        and if you release to fast it wont fire because the ‘second sear’ is holding the hammer and you release but the second disconnector is still holding the hammer

  • A bearded being from beyond ti

    What is this guy’s real name and we’re does he get all that money?

    • Alex Agius

      Tim
      From being a beard model

      • A bearded being from beyond ti

        Tier-1 beard operator.

    • BroHam

      His name is Tim, and he own’s a gunshop called Copper Custom which he usually plugs somewhere in his videos. For the most part he’s a decent reviewer, however, his review of the VP9 has been controversial and uncharacteristically childish at best. He basically had a VP9, probably shot the piss out of it for a year, then did a review which involved a water puddle dunk and it failed to shoot. Instead of looking for a root cause and/or reaching out to industry to see if this is just an isolated incidence, he continues the review in silent rage mode and ends it by chucking the VP9 at steel targets until he satisfactorily breaks it (the plastic magazine release lever popped off), declaring it a forever POS unfit for personal protection.

      There have been video rebuttals conducting the same puddle tests and shooting just fine from other people, but what has been seen cannot be unseen. I’ve since unsubcribed from his channel, it is what it is.

      • A bearded being from beyond ti

        Well that sounds dumb (the VP9 thing that is) Any idea why he would do that? Does he dislike HK or something?

        • Dan Atwater

          No, he was just pissed that his gun stopped working after it got wet.

          • BroHam

            Exactly.

      • Malthrak

        To be fair, most youtube gun channels do something like this at some point.

        You can watch some TFB videos where a certain writer from here goes out of his way to poopoo the CZ Scorpion in several videos after someone called it an “MP5 killer” or something, complaining about how it’s apparently unreasonably heavy by comparing it to a $3k+ unicorn UMP conversion that was a couple ounces lighter which he then claimed were “cheap as hell” and “commonly available for under $1200” in the youtube comments (and not comparing the weight to guns you can actually buy like MP5 clones and the MCX…both of which are heavier than the Scorpion).

        You’ll find this stuff on most channels, you take the good with the bad and call the bad out when you see it and praise the good.

      • Sermon 7.62

        He also once made a nice clip about AK and in the end of it he pulled out that Israeli electric drill and started licking it.

  • De Facto

    I NEED IT. I’d love to pair this with a .22lr upper.

    • thedonn007

      Do you know for sure that it will work with a .22lr upper?

      • De Facto

        The proprietary bolt carrier suggests it wouldn’t be as easy as simply changing uppers, but I would hope that they will release a version of their BC for dedicated .22lr uppers. I could easily see myself chewing through a brick of .22lr with this system.

        • Cymond

          And hopefully a 9mm bolt, or maybe someone like ADCO will figure out how to machine a built to work.

          A 22lr bolt will be harder, but not impossible. CMMG makes a kit to trip an autosear, so this shouldn’t be much different. The hard part week be convincing someone to make the kit.

          • Xanderbach

            I need this in a 9mm variant for my Colt 633 DOE replica. Would add a nice bit (more) of fun to it. Though I would prefer a more “standard” selector lever…

          • De Facto

            OOH. Pair this trigger with the belt fed freedom ordnance 9mm upper!

  • John Johnson

    Can’t watch the video right now, but given the description of how it works I wouldn’t be surprised if the ATF ends up ruling that it’s a machine gun due to how the trigger incorporates a second sear to release the hammer only after the bolt goes forward.

    • DIR911911 .

      by 2:30 he already says they have an atf approval letter

      • YZAS

        haha, yeah… until they write another letter ‘clarifying’ that: “well, yes, this is approved to own and to sell as we said before, BUT… you just can’t use your finger to depress the actual trigger, because that would turn the gun into a machine gun… but you could use another body part, perhaps your penis, as that would not constitute a violation of any laws in our minds” …then they sit back, watch and laugh as those ‘black-rifle lovers’ get their sausages stuck in their trigger guards. Sorry if I’m a bit cynical. I have reason to be so.

    • Cymond

      The second sear doesn’t release the hammer. It only prevents the hammer from following the bolt if the shooter outruns the bolt.

      Basically, if your finger is too fast, it only fires a single, instead of a single and a hammer follow.

    • jcitizen

      A semi-auto already has a second sear, this one just makes sure the bolt has already gone forward before the next trigger pull releases the hammer again. I’d be surprised if the BATF doesn’t start REQUIRING this trigger system in all semi- autos, as it enforces the letter and intent of the regulations.

  • smartacus

    get this to Jerry “the finger” Miculek!!

    Swear to God, that guy’s finger must’ve given fast and fluidous orgasms to a few females

    • jeff

      the thing is, if you pull and release to fast the second disconnector will not allow the hammer to fall

      • JumpIf NotZero

        Exactly, someone who can really run an AR fast won’t see the benefit from this.

        The action has to complete a cycle, and if you’re really fast with a light trigger you can overrun that. This happens to the bumpfire guys already.

        This system doesn’t speed that up at all, just allows you to be slower.

        • jeff

          yea, that is the the only problem with have the sear that holds the hammer. With the Franklin Armory trigger you could get some insane ROF but at the same time outrun the gun just as easily.

          • I’m testing the Franklin Armory trigger now and have a good number of rounds through it. It does have a high rate of fire and experienced no malfunctions. Using a lightweight BCG with a mid length gas system the rate of fire is even faster. I love this trigger!

          • It’s a pretty expensive item Phil; about $400.

      • WRBuchanan

        Sorry but it isn’t really that easy to outrun the AR Cycle time.

  • nova3930

    I’d like to know what the 2nd shot dispersion from POA is….

  • YZAS

    Bwah hahahahaha! “The ATF even wrote a letter! ….so when you purchase
    your Foster echo trigger system, you do so knowing that that approval is
    already in place”

    With all due respect (and I DO have a LOT of respect for Tim at MAC), I have
    been down that road before. I think many of us have. Something about
    ‘shouldering a brace’ as I remember? I’m not really eager to get fooled again.
    The ATF’s word is MUD in my book. They like to ‘write letters’ and then write
    more letters later that summarily undoes exactly what it was that they wrote in
    their first letter. And in this case, there would be no fall back to file a
    form, pay a bunch more money for a stamp, engraving, stock – and SBR your way
    out of a mess (granted you’re in a state that you COULD). And with the
    headline-hungry AG’s and politicians who like to summarily interpret the
    Constitution they way they see fit these days, forgive me if I’m a little
    ‘gun-shy’ on this one guys.

    But hey, why don’t YOU get one and let me shoot it at the range some day? πŸ™‚
    I’d much rather burn out your barrel than mine anyway. Looks like a blast
    though!

  • Edeco

    Oh kitty! My prollum with the other two was that apparently the shooter could outrun them. If that’s solved…

  • Bidnitman

    FosTech would be wise to limit their capital expenditures on this venture, so that if/when the ATF decides to write another ‘letter’, cutting the legs out from underneath them (like they just LOVE to do), FosTech isn’t left with their britches down to their knees whistling dixie and holding onto a ton of tools and inventory that has been rendered useless. Just a thought from a fellow bidnitman. Sorry to be a downer (I truly am), but past history can be an indicator of future behavior and we’ve seen it happen before. The old ATF rope a dope. And they won’t lose a minute of sleep.

    • jeff

      I would love to see the ATF try and classify this trigger, or any other trigger like it, as a machine gun. The definition of machine gun is “Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger”. There is a key distinction there, by a single funtion of the trigger. The Echo trigger is by definition, not a machine gun. If they try and rule this trigger as a machine gun it will throw the definition out in general and that could entail a lot of things. But I do not think the ATF would want to try that stunt.

      • jcitizen

        The Echo trigger actually enforces the rules – one pull for one hammer fall. Ironic?

  • Anonymoose

    Put a bumpfire stock on this and see how fast it goes. πŸ˜€

    • jeff

      so it has the second sear that holds the hammer so it cannot fire out of battery, it is timing it, so if you release the trigger to fast the second disconnector is release and the trigger is held by the sear until the bolt closes and it catches like normal and doesnt fire. So you cannot get a gun with this trigger to run that fast. If you had the timing perfect on your pulls and releases it would only go around the same rate of fire as an M16(700–950 RPM)

      • Anonymoose

        That’s why you use a low-mass carrier.

        • jeff

          Jim Sullivan, one of the designers of the original AR-15, did an interview with Ian from forgotten weapons a while back, and Jim said something about increased the bolt mass as much as possible to try and stop bolt bounce when the bolt hit the barrel extention, because if the bolt bounces and it drops the hammer it has the chance of an out of battery detonation. It is less likely to happen with this trigger since it is not a machine gun and you have to release for it to fire the second shot. But it is still a thing that can happen with low mass carriers

          • jcitizen

            You could put a bolt bounce counter weight that slides forward as the bolt closes, but that was ruled as a NFA modification by the BATF years ago. Fortunately bolt bounce is relatively rare on this kind of rotational lock up bolt. If it were rolling block like the HK G3, there would be a dangerous problem.

  • rjackparis

    i really wish you would change the title.

  • lowell houser

    This is… HILARIOUS. ATF CAN’T classify this as class 3. It’s more precise than actual full auto, and the worst they can do is class 2(and that will be fought rather vigorously in court I imagine). In this market, that’s not a death sentence to a product line any more. Couple this with a heavy barrel and a bunch of Magpul drums and you have a viable SAW.

    Fostech, if you’re reading, adapt this to the Sig MCX and the ACR since they both use AR triggers. Oh, yeah, and the AK. Don’t forge those guys πŸ™‚

    I’ve heard the trigger described as a “worked over mil-spec trigger” so if you can keep it at that quality level I can’t think of a reason to buy any other aftermarket trigger than this one.

  • mazkact

    BATF will kill this

  • GerladTheMagnificent

    Kinda neat. My fear is that someone buys this and does something stupid with it, further alienating AR owners. That being said, it does look fun.

    • L Cavendish

      Plenty of people buy sports cars and motorcycles and do REALLY stupid things with THEM.LOL

  • Sermon 7.62

    There’s a big difference here: in the US there’s that 2nd Ammendment, so it is a fight to preserve the rights. That’s much easier to do. In Europe, people are struggling to establish the rights, or to regain them. That’s much harder to do.

  • Rob

    On the technical side, it appears that the secondary shot is accomplished by simply letting go of the trigger, so the trigger operating in the reverse direction is spring powered. This makes me wonder if the ATF might not come back on this and change their mind. There was a one-time trigger gizmo that used a spring inside the trigger guard to allow for easier bump firing. The ATF eventually ruled it a machine gun, I believe, because of the passive operation of the trigger. The user isn’t pulling the trigger forward, he is allowing the spring to push it forward.

    I think it is a cool product, and would consider getting one just for double tap capability, but recent history with the Sig brace gives me pause.

    • Repoman3737

      These have existed and been approved for a couple years now. A few companies make similar versions and all have atf approval letters. They are legal because as long as it fires only one round per single function of trigger. Pull is one function and release is second and seperate function because you have to move finger forward and release trigger for it to work.i dont see atf able to reverse on this without redefining machine gun 1st

      • Rob

        I hope you are right.

        The actual legal description doesn’t use the phrase “trigger function”, though, it says “trigger pull”. Thinking like a lawyer, that could be construed to reverse the ATF’s current position.

        • AlDeLarge

          26 U.S. Code Β§ 5845 – Definitions
          (b) Machinegun
          The term β€œmachinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

          • Repoman3737

            I was pretty sure it said function when I posted above thanks for putting definition up.

  • LetsTryLibertyAgain

    The Fostech Echo trigger is a safety device, designed with an interlock sear to prevent possible out-of-battery conditions when inadvertently rapidly firing. πŸ™‚

    And the Sig brace is designed to allow physically handicapped individuals to more accurately operate AR pistols.

    And a black modern sporting rifle is a scary assault rifle, but a wooden stock makes the same diminutive .223 caliber much less scary.

    And Black Talon are evil “cop killer bullets” but Winchester SXT is the Same eXact Thing.

    It’s all in the marketing, boys.

    • L Cavendish

      That’s what advertising is all about…didn’t your sports car get you laid? How about that cologne? Women flock to you…right?

  • HAHA73

    I bet its junk, probably can’t handle getting thrown at steel targets or run over by a jeep.

  • mbrd

    negligent discharge bait. atf flip flopping bait. state and regional regulation bait.

    i sure hope folks employ sound trigger discipline while still muzzle downrange, otherwise other folks are going to start catching splatter, or worse.

    not that i think the thing is intrinsically wrong, but a lot of shooters are going to have to improve their technique to safely accommodate this development.

    fascinating the the batfe has conceded that pull and release of the trigger are two separate actions… i did mention “atf flip flopping bait”, right?

    i guess it’s the closest thing to a stamp free giggle switch… at half the stated list price, i might consider it.

    • Amanofdragons

      Already illegal in Washington state.

  • Mike Lashewitz

    Seems cool enough. Don’t know if I can justify the cost though.

    • Repoman3737

      If you’re building an AR and not trying to build the cheapest possible it’s worth it because you’re getting a drop in trigger and a complete bolt and carrier assembly. If you add those up you will see not alot of difference in price.

      • Mike Lashewitz

        I build with PSA. The next build is with Anderson RF85.

  • Doom

    what is the point of having the MG registry closed again?

  • cnnspy

    How soon before enough morons ask and ask the ATF if this makes it a machine gun which will simply piss them off and they will change their minds and reverse the decision?

  • WRBuchanan

    WHY WOULD YOU EVEN POST AN ARTICLE LIE THIS? How stupid can you be?.
    Why don’t you just send a copy to Kamala Harris and Gavin Newsome so they can include it in their gun ban legislation that will be signed into law next year!
    Why don’t you call the CA or Mass DOJ and see if these are even legal? If they are,,, they won’t be for long.
    Those groups have people on staff who are paid to read blogs like this to find whatever they can to add to the list of crap they can ban.
    Seriously you editors need to wise up a little bit and actually do your job. Anyone can read this stuff!

    • Ryfyle

      Wowzers, you sir are the wettest blanket. It’s Very unlikely, hell there’s a lot of backlash on those bans. Even the Mass. Governor told them to hold back on the reigns.

    • Stinkeye

      So, would it be better if the company making this went out of business because nobody knew about their product?

  • Big Dave

    Many of you guys dont get it. The best part about the trigger is NOT full mag dumps. Not even close. The best part is unbelievably close spaced controlled pairs.
    Note that EVEN on full auto guns now some manufacturers are doing a TWO round burst as an option.
    Close space double taps on multiple targets place with lightning speed is where all the real fun is at.
    Practical for tactical? This remains to be seen. I would use it. Just get REAL good at learning to disable the release fire IF the second round is not needed.

    • Ryfyle

      Oh no I saw the potential for that. In fact, it would be the prime reason I would get such a trigger. I wish they made some for the AK platforms out there.

    • Ben Pottinger

      “”Just get REAL good at learning to disable the release fire IF the second round is not needed.””

      People keep saying this and I just don’t get it. Who on this planet trains to end their shooting string with a held down trigger? Just imagine shooting a 3 gun run and when you hit your last target you stand there with the trigger held down. Or a steel rack with your pistol and when your done you stand there squeezing the trigger.. really? Who does that? In the real world your going to just be doing very fast doubles whenever you pull the trigger because your going to pull *and release* like you done for years and years and thousands of rounds before. And it won’t be any more unsafe because those two shots are going to be right next to each other because releasing the trigger hardly moves the gun and the split between the shots will be full-auto speed split times.

  • Kalash

    Fun range toy, but I can’t see how anything that allows you to take your finger off the trigger and discharge a round while doing so is anything but a range toy, potentially a very unsafe range toy.

    • Ben Pottinger

      If you make a habit of pulling the trigger and then keeping it held down for some indeterminate period of time and then swinging the gun off target, well, I’m not sure this trigger is your problem.

      If your idea of unsafe is “the firearm will fire if you manipulate the trigger”, well then I’m not exactly sure what to tell you.

      • Kalash

        Wow…you really can not figure this out? A weapon that discharges a round when you RELEASE the trigger is just an accident waiting to happen.

        Don’t be stupid. Think about it.

        • Ben Pottinger

          Guns are dangerous, it’s kind of the point. By your logic a full auto gun is a dangerous range toy. At least with a fire on release trigger you can’t spray the sky/ceiling if you panic, and theb squeeze and hold.

          Of course your also ignoring the fact that fire on release triggers have existed for decades in precision rifle circles without causing waves of death and dismemberment.

          • Kalash

            I guess you are just that stupid.

            Let me make it as clear as possible.

            Press trigger, gun fires.

            Release trigger. Gun does not fire.

            That is how the AR works.

          • Ben Pottinger

            Oh of course, why didn’t I think of that? I’ll stop feeding the troll now.

          • Kalash

            You do seem to be suffering from a particularly nasty case of butt hurt. Seek professional medical attention.

          • I’m afraid I’ll just have to disagree with that viewpoint. I’m testing the very very good Franklin Armory binary trigger. It operates in the same manner. I have no problem using it and certainly don’t feel it presents a danger to the shooter. I know how it operates so handling it safely poses no problem.

          • I’m not talking about you Kalash but the reader who feels it’s a dangerous device.

          • Bubba

            Who is paying you ? Bloomberg or Soros ?

          • Kalash

            Wow, what a clever fellow you are. If you can’t figure out why this trigger system is a stupid idea, please turn your weapons into the closest authorities and schedule a brain scan to make sure you have anything up there.

  • Ryfyle

    Neato. It’s like a double tap with half the tap. I wonder why he doesn’t use and Casket Magazines?

  • Core

    Jesus, can they increase the price a bit more..

  • Core

    I would be interested to see timed groupings from an auto versus an echo trigger. 30 round usgi mag. Just to see the difference.

  • Acecool

    From what I’m reading, this system doesn’t take into account the time it takes the hammer to fall therefore slowing you down even further… There are already systems available that aren’t FA and prevent hammer trailing without slowing you down by allowing the hammer to fall as soon as it is able to have a good-shot, which is before the bolt carrier and bolt are fully-seated but the hammer is designed to strike as soon as the bolt rotates in place…

  • AirborneSoldier

    Sounds similar the what was sold in the 80s. What was that called?

  • John

    I’m sorry. My apologies ahead of time. I’m a gun owner (and yes an AR owner). I don’t see the need for Auto-Fire, In general, in the civilian market. Could someone enlighten me, please?

    • Repoman3737

      It’s not auto fire. It has the regular settings of safe and semi and a third that is echo. On echo it will fire 1 round on trigger pull and then fire another on release. If you don’t want to fire the shot on release you can toggle to semi or safe and in will not fire the round. It gives you a nice option for acurate controlled pairs or double taps or a higher rate of suppressive fire if ever needed. I can’t afford a full auto anything this gets me close to that full auto smile without shelling out $8-15,000 for it. Biggest reason I would get this would be for a complete build and for the controlled pair option

  • Matt Wilder

    So, basically it’s a binary trigger like some trap guns used to have?
    I had a stock AR trigger group that failed a few rounds in, and from then forth would fire in binary – one shot pulled, another shot on release of the trigger- . It was kind of neat, but not for that long, and dangerous considering that once you pulled the trigger you were ALWAYS guaranteed to get another round before you could put it on safe. Now, if a binary trigger group could be had for less than $200 I might be interested, but for the $300-400 they currently go for now? No thanks. I’ll start building another rifle for that much instead.

    • Repoman3737

      You have to remember your getting a match grade trigger and a bolt carrier group and it has echo fire. Price out triggers and BCG separately and you will see you are not paying much extra. If you price out the cheapest trigger and BCG then it’s a big difference but not if it’s similar quality pieces.

      • Matt Wilder

        You’re absolutely right. I didn’t really account that it also requires and includes a new bolt carrier (I admittedly didn’t watch Tim’s video first, but now I get it), so it doesn’t actually sound that far out when you think about it. Personally, I have no problem with the concept, and though sort of reinventing the wheel so to speak, it’s still making the concept available for an entire new platform and introducing the concept to a whole other group of shooters. I do quite like it.

  • Mark Lee

    Now that technology has surpassed the ability of the law to restrict full-auto fire weapons, it doesn’t make sense to even have the laws on the books, as they don’t apply to the lawless anyway. Its way past due to open up the machine gun registry and allow new-manufacture weapons to be available in full-auto. The people buying these weapons will not be casual or impulse buyers when the cost of the purchase includes a $200 tax stamp and the extra cost of a premium-level firearm versus a cheapo gun. Plus, people that already own converted or original but unregistered FA weapons can finally get legal and play with their friends at FA matches instead of hiding them for when society breaks down and there is no longer a government trying to restrict gun ownership. When are we going to see the registry open up?

    • Repoman3737

      Since they are trying to ban our semi auto ones anyway they can I don’t think I would be ready to put a deposit on any new gun with a giggle switch anytime soon. I agree with your point I just don’t see it happening if they still think a semi auto AR can shoot the space station out of orbit..

  • Josh

    I have mucho grande dollars for anyone who can make the first pull a “half” pull and the second pull a complete pull attached to this same system.

    Because that is legal.