BREAKING: FBI Selects Glock for Next Service Handgun

FBI_Badge__gun-glock

In a second surprise move from the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the force has selected Glock USA’s entrant to the competition to select a new pistol for the bureau. In October of 2015, the FBI released a new request for proposal (RFP) soliciting from the industry handguns that would conform to its desired specifications; those specs seemed to favor SIG Sauer’s entrant, the P320, as they disallowed the finger grooves characteristic of 3rd gen and later Glock pistols. While many figured that this meant Glock was out of the running, this win suggests the Austrian handgun giant was more than willing (as they should be) to accommodate the FBI’s requests by changing the molds used to create their pistol frames.

Although Glock is known to be the winner of the FBI’s contract, it is not known exactly which model, if any currently available, actually was selected, beyond that it will be in 9mm. In 2014, the FBI announced it would abandon the .40 S&W caliber and re-adopt the 110-year old 9x19mm Parabellum round, citing the almost identical practical terminal effect of the two rounds and a higher possible magazine capacity with the 9mm.

The contract in total is worth $85 million. You can read the solicitation/award document at the FBO’s website, here.

 

Thanks to Demetrius for the tip!



Nathaniel F

Nathaniel is a history enthusiast and firearms hobbyist whose primary interest lies in military small arms technological developments beginning with the smokeless powder era. In addition to contributing to The Firearm Blog, he runs 196,800 Revolutions Per Minute, a blog devoted to modern small arms design and theory. He can be reached via email at nathaniel.f@staff.thefirearmblog.com.


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  • I too live dangerously

    Very bold move to select a hand grenade for a sidearm.

    • Austin

      Not like they went with Taurus

    • john huscio

      The joke that never dies….all because some dumbasses decided to do something warned against by the company themselves.

      • iksnilol

        I dunno, loading 40 S&W in a 40 S&W pistol is pretty standard.

        • john huscio

          I’d wager most of the “kabooms” stem from Billy Bob shooting a steady diet of uncle Cletus’s handloads……anytime I see an exploded pistol, 90/100 times I’m thinking “what did the dumbass shooter do?”

          • iksnilol

            True, but Glocks do have less chamber support than others.

        • PK

          Yep. There’s no easy way to get around it, Glock messed up halfway and some ammo manufacturers messed up halfway.

          They met in the middle and caused a bunch of problems, some of which resulted in rapid disassembly of Glock handguns without the use of tools.

          At least it’s not an issue with any of the modern/redesigned barrels with more chamber support, which are any G2 or later I think, but best to visually confirm if you’re buying a used/older .40S&W or 10mm Glock.

  • 40mmCattleDog

    First NSW now the FBI. 2016 Year of the Glock.

    • And the NZSDF.

      • 2805662

        NZDF*

        • Erm. *clears throat* Of course. That’s what I meant. 😉

          (must have the JGSDF on the brain…)

  • Pete – TFB Writer

    It will be the Glock 100. Because F.B.I.

    In all seriousness, great choice and great find NF.

    • Kivaari

      Remember when the FBI said “Never Glocks”? Then after years in the field, Glocks replaced all the others. DEA would allow others.

  • Matthew Groom

    Probably a modified Glock 19, which is the Toyota Corolla of Handguns.

    • El Duderino

      Yeah, would have been sexier news had they chosen a dark horse.

      “Hey neighbor! Wanna come check out my brand new base model import econobox car with pleather interior?”

      “Erm…no…”

    • Parker Brown

      More like Honda Civic. A billion bodykits and aftermarket parts to make it a racer, but still the same plastic fantastic.

  • john huscio

    So a Glock 19 gen 4 without fingergrooves? Put me down for two!

    • Anonymoose

      Would that be Gen5 or Gen4.5? Gen4.2? They should put a real Picatinny rail section on it and color the frame gray, too.

      • Maybe color the frame police navy blue? With a black slide that would be a charmer.

        As for the rail, Picatinny would be cool, but really for the love of basic injection molding standards, Glock needs to get rid of the ridiculous “pignose” defect they have with rail.

        This is not a design feature, it’s a defect caused by a poorly designed injection mold, and could easily be fixed – notably LoneWolf, a far smaller company than Glock, can produce a straight rail section.

        • Anonymoose

          Navy blue is so 1900s. Cops nowadays have to be in jet black ACUs or Multicam to be taken seriously.

          • ARCNA442

            Jet black is so ’90’s – even the cops are getting FDE.

          • Kivaari

            San Diego used to wear “pinks”, looking like the SAS trucks of the “Desert Rats”.

          • Longhaired Redneck

            Yeah, I remember that when I lived there from 1958 until 1993. Shortly after I moved to Seattle, they went to Nazi SS black. Silly choice for the southern California climate, unless of course paramilitary intimidation is the goal.

            As an aside, I remember SD cops in early 1960’s Ford Galaxy squad cars wearing motorcycle helmets. Maybe logic has never figured into the equation…

          • Kivaari

            I hated helmets. We went to cowboy hats.

          • Kivaari

            “Patrol helmets”, were not tough enough to be bike helmets. Light weight. Terrible idea, that we wore as well. It invited being hit with beer bottles and rocks. For years I had mine collecting dust. What they were thining I do not know. A friend was on the cover of LA Times without his helmet during a riot. The chief called him in the next day. As Stan entered the chief’s office the chief flipped an “8-point” hat at him and yelle, “If you wont wear the helmet, at least wear this”. In those days a hat was mandatory. A drunk could punch you and get off since you were out of uniform.

          • Anonymoose

            As well they should. Dark colors make them want to just sit in their air-conditioned MRAPs.

          • Kivaari

            We called it LAPD blue. So blue it was almost black.

          • Anonymoose

            Still not tacticool (tactihot?) enough!

        • Kivaari

          Glock, like SIG and HK, wanted to sell the customers the “Glock” accessory lights.

          • Well now that has not taken off, so it couldn’t hurt for them to create a straight, non-pignose rail, ideally in the picatiny standard.

    • Harry’s Holsters

      I’ve heard that and then no finger grooves with other unknown improvements. I really wish they’d just release it. I heard it’s supposed to be available to the public sometime this year. This all on m4carbine . net

    • BattleshipGrey

      As long as they’re at it, I’ll bet they’ll release a batch or three to the public as well.

      • El Mac

        Oh goody! Same crappy grip angle, crappy trigger and a few geegaws added to it! They will sell millions.

        • BattleshipGrey

          They probably will, because there are people that don’t mind the grip angle and “crappy trigger”, with which I was making good use of at 100 yards on a pizza box yesterday.

          • El Mac

            Awesome. Imagine how well you could do with a good trigger. Pizza box down to a cereal box…or better. But stick with that glunk. Just because.

          • DaveP.

            Yeah, because the FBI, Marine Special Operations Command, SEAL Teams… what do they know, right? Just a bunch of fanboys compared to your greatness.

          • El Mac

            Jealous much friendo?

          • DaveP.

            …of what? Your social signaling, or your inferiority complex?
            Nah- I get by just fine.
            Now tell us more about how the MARSOC is a bunch of fanbois and the FBI are nOObs. I really want to hear how glorious and wise you are compared to them.
            Don’t disappoint me now…

          • Kivaari

            Good retort. I love my Glocks.

          • El Mac

            Oh, but I am one…..friendo. But you keep drinking that koolaid. Have my portion as well.

          • Kivaari

            MRBF is higher among 1911s. It is one major reason the military wanted out of them over 30 years ago. They picked a new pistol that met some of the needs. Like being reliable, having more rounds, and could be carried hammer down but still ready for use without needing to disengage the safety. Army regs are or were too restrictive. Packing a pistol without a round in the chamber or engaging the safety when the chamber is loaded is bad practice. A DAO or de-cock only variant is a better pistol if they stick with a Beretta type in the Army. The Glock is a superior general issue LE pistol. The Glock has proven to be the best to this date. Others are similar and many are very good. Glocks just make sense. I can own any handgun I want and after 50+ years of shooting I’d pick a Glock over any other semi-auto pistol. If we want a gun for precise shooting, it isn’t a Glock. But for self-defense, nothing beats it.

          • El Mac

            Whatever dude. Rock on with your bad self!!

          • Kivaari

            Why do you insult people? I guess since you claim to be the MARSOC warrior that no one with 50+ years of experience has anything to add. There are quite a few people out there that have substantially more gun knowledge than any serving soldier. I know that when I served my fellow sailors and soldiers were pretty much gun ignorant.

          • El Mac

            Tell me you aren’t so thin skinned to think that was an insult! I would agree with your assessment that a lot of soldiers and cops are not “gun savvy”. But a lot are. I have to chuckle to myself when I see or hear anyone painting with such a broad brush to tell me that all soldiers and cops should be armed with “xyz” pistol. Screw that. I’m a grown up with nigh on 35 years of toting guns in civvy land and otherwise. I’ll carry what works for me. I recommend that to anyone.

          • Kivaari

            That’s what I said. Except too many departments buy what the gun guys want, and that is often the worst choice for most people. Agencies need to offer alternatives, since so many people are out of the norm. But, it should be of the same operating system.
            I found your comments to others to be insulting. I couldn’t care less what you intended for me. I just notice that you put others down when it wasn’t needed.

          • Kivaari

            Your department buys what you want? We bought our own 40+ years ago. By 35 years ago, every place I worked issued guns.

          • Kivaari

            What is a “bad self”?

          • El Mac

            It’s the cat in your mirror.

          • Kivaari

            That’s an image a an old but very gun smart old man.

          • El Mac

            Perhaps. But keep in mind that there is a world of difference between smart and wise.

          • Kivaari

            I made it this far.

          • El Mac

            Congratulations.

        • Kivaari

          The grip angle is crappy only to those that use other guns exclussively. A brain conditioned 1911 user hates everything that isn’t 1911. Serious users go to one gun and learn it and use it for all serious uses. Switching around from gun to gun is fun for the range, but not good for work. I pick up a 1911 and they point wrong and are club-like. They have a damn safety as well.

          • Renato H. M. de Oliveira

            A “drawback” becomes a “feature” after enough training.

          • Kivaari

            Yep.

          • Kivaari

            That’s so true. It ids why I suggest that SERIOUS gun users pick one gun and learn it well. When that pistol becomes prt of you, you can do amazing things with it. It’s why I don’t like M1911s for anything but fun. Just like M1911 users pick up a Glock and say nasty things about how poorly they point. Until just recently, I sold all of my pistols that were not Glock-built. Now I have a Beretta PX4 simply as a toy to go along with a CX4 carbine. Although both are well suited to self defense and LE use, I keep them in the toy section. Some have determined I am suggesting individuals not buy and use what they want. I am only saying that for those that carry a gun for defense, pick one and learn it. I suggest the 1911 is a poor choice. Th things are SO heavy. A Glock-type pistol with one 15-17 shot magazine weighs half as much as a M1911 with one spare magazine. This old age crap takes its toll.

          • El Mac

            Yeah that 1911 thumb safety is pretty hard to operate for some. Booger eaters need not apply.

          • CommonSense23

            Yeah, especially if wounded which is one of the major reasons Delta left the 1911 for a glock.

          • El Mac

            HAHAHA!!! Now that is FUNNY! And a good one! I hadn’t heard that excuse before…like most excuses, it’s crap. Ooooooooh…..what if my little trigger finger gets hurt, how will I ever pull the trigger??? (that’s about as stupid!)
            So tell me Mr. Common Sense…if their wittle thumb got hurt and couldn’t operate the 1911 safety, how pray tell are they going to operate their M4/516, etc safety??????
            Try again.

          • CommonSense23

            They can’t. Cause one the things they learned the hard way was when you are running a 50 percent casualty rate in Iraq in a single year. You get a lot of guys getting shot up clearing rooms. And one of the things they notice was they had multiple instances of guys not being able to engage quickly due to being wounded(typically after having there rifle destroyed), there were instances of not being able to engage in time due to the 1911. It’s why you saw grip safeties being taped down.

          • El Mac

            Sorry bud. That’s just pure dee garbage right there. If it were true, they would without safeties on their long guns. Bogus.

          • CommonSense23

            What? They are going thru the door on fire. If you pulling a pistol, it’s a emergency. That’s one of the big takeaways from Iraq in terms of pistol use. Its why mag size, ability to pull the gun and use with weak hand have been stressed.

          • El Mac

            Ok brother. You’ve got your mind made up. Rock on!

          • CommonSense23

            No. It’s the fact I’ve read the AARs from those events.

          • El Mac

            Awesome bro! Next time you are kicking doors in Iraq with your secondary weapon, that will come in handy! Rock on!!

          • CommonSense23

            Do you not have reading comprehension. Where am I suggesting that people are going thru the door pistol in hand.

          • El Mac

            Clearly it is something you worry about. Your lack of ability to manipulate a safety under stress. I get it. It ain’t for everyone. Rock your Glock and your safetyless AR and smoke em if you got em! Rock in dude!

          • CommonSense23

            Did you not read the part about being wounded.

          • El Mac

            I don’t care what you carry brother. Or why you carry what you carry. But to be overly concerned about the wounding of you thumb to the point that you can’t manipulate your pistol is pointless. But it is certainly your right to worry about whatever you want to.

          • Kivaari

            Relly you can’t get too wound up in what your pistol will do when you are shot up. If lucky you live and you get dragged to safety by others. The M9 is a good but large gun. The M9A3 would be a step up. A Glock 19 would win the day.

          • Kivaari

            It’s a back up weapon. It’s why cops often pack a second handgun opposite the primary handgun. LEO handguns are self defense tools. If they have advanced warning they pack a long gun and the selector better be set to a “go” position. It’s a reason to pack a psitol like a Glock and then a S&W Centennial. Both operate by simply pressing the triggers to the rear. They don’t require manipulating a safety device.
            It is why people should pick simple handguns and really train with them. Very little standing up and pointing at a bullseye target, but getting out doing IDPA-style training. If you must have a pile of guns, and that can be a fun in its own way, pick something that is the same for defense. Don’t change guns like underwear as I’ve seen people do.
            The first guys through those doors do have a higher risk of having the rifle destroyed. In my youth it really made sense to have no less than 2 handguns on my person, both that work simply by running the trigger. A Glock is just used like a magazine loaded revolver. A good backup to a Glock is a DAO revolver.

          • El Mac

            No it’s not…a Glock has NO capability to repeatedly pull the trigger. One must action the slide first and reset the trigger. Nice try though.

          • Kivaari

            Except it carries ready like a revolver. I never had my service pistol go “click” in over 30,000 rounds.
            After reaching 22,000 I stopped keeping close records. I refused new guns, and just used it until near the end. That’s when they asked me what gun I wanted to carry, and I got a M34.
            I’ve had revolvers seize up. It’s a good reason to carry a M642 in the off-side pocket. The idea is the gun is always at the ready just like packing a combat magnum or Python. Clear leather, aim and shoot. A 1911 needs to be re-cocked or better, have the slide worked to clear a dud.
            We carried revolvers for years and the Glock is essentially the same. At least if they work. Mine did.

          • El Mac

            Don’t obfuscate. The 1911 as well as the Glock have to have their slides “racked” to clear a dud – no difference. And my 1911 is at the ready same as any revolver. Case closed.

          • Kivaari

            You seem to think I am telling you not to carry a M1911. Not at all. I carried one for years. In civilian life, Navy and Army. I used them very little in LE.
            I know damn well how to make a M1911 go bang, as I do the revolvers and Glocks. We all know the tap-rack-ready routine. We all know the clearing of smoke stacks and all the drills. My issue gun always went bang. Call it luck, in over 30K rounds it always worked.
            In the ’11 I had ammo relate failures. In the M19 Combat Magnum I had ammo related failures. In my issue M17, it just went bang.
            As an individual, carry what you want. Follow my advice, learn how to use the gun you are packing.
            I still carry a 4 inch Combat Magnum. Usually, when I am on a woods walk when the wolves and bear are out and about. The Glocks a better choice but I like the revolver.
            YOU miss how I suggest a modern combat pistol for police. NOT your M1911, since I now the limitations of the people that show up for training.
            Many cadets are not now and never will be gun people. Not many people want to carry an 8 shot .45 with two spare magazines that weight twice as much as a Glock or HK having 50 rounds on tap for half the weight. Add the weight of the belt, holster, (2) cuffs w. cases, TASER w/holster, radio, baton, OC, back up light, rubber gloves, (3) keepers and that damn .45 becomes an anchor.
            Add to it that, .45s deliver a pistol too large for many users. If YOU as a private personwants a 1911, please carry one. Most people I know leave them at home and pack a small gun.

          • El Mac

            “Go bang”….could there be a more assinine term? As for your ammo failures, use better ammo. As for your recommendation for LE, thanks but no thanks. How about letting LE choose for themselves? Now that’s a novel concept! I know plenty of LE in my neck of the woods that prefer the 1911 and carry it on daily basis. If you find them too heavy, hey man, that’s YOU. I might suggest some gym time you.

          • Kivaari

            Really?

          • El Mac

            Uh huh.

          • retfed

            It sounds all freedom-y to say “allow all LE to carry what they want,” but LE agencies are responsible for the feeding and maintenance of the pistols their people carry, whether they’re agency- or personally-owned. An LE agency can’t keep inventories of .38 Special, .357, 9mm, .40, and .45 on hand; it’s too expensive and too complicated.A twenty-officer sheriff’s office can get away with it, but a large agency with several thousand people can’t. For the same reason, it can’t have armorers and parts for half a dozen different gun makes and models. Having a standard make, and one or two models within that make, frees up time and money that can be used for training.
            I know these things because I’ve done them. Have you?

          • El Mac

            Yes I have. And I’ve also been subject to some bureaucrat’s decision on what I should or should not carry. And I won’t stand for it again. To say that it’s “too complicated or too expensive” to maintain say 3 types of ammo….9/40/45 is a cop out. And it is to buy into the lazy bureaucrat’s lie. And at no time was money ever diverted from an ammo budget to a training budget…It sounds nice, but it doesn’t happen. But I’m not surprised. It’s the modern mentality again raising it’s ugly head: lowest common denominator ammo, pistol, training. Mouth breathers and booger eaters are welcome to apply.

          • retfed

            It’s not a cop out. You’re not paying for that ammo, the taxpayers are. The ones that have hissy fits and write letters to the editor about all the money you’re wasting. And ammo budgets per se don’t get transferred to training budgets, but in my agency they were all part of the firearm program’s budget. So if your program has 1 million dollars you can spend a quarter of a million on one caliber of ammo and three quarters of it on training, or you can spend three quarters of it on three types of ammo and one quarter of it on training. Which is the better expenditure of your funds?
            But I can see that you’re so much smarter, better, and more experienced than I am that I’m killing good pixels for nothing. Adios.

          • El Mac

            Actually, it is a cop out. I’d bet you 98% of the taxpayers have NO clue as to what yours or my agency’s ammo budget is. And the 2% that do (and that in itself is a stretch!) don’t sit around saying to each other: “whew! I’m so glad the XYZ agency switched to one caliber. I mean, look how much money they saved me on my taxes this year!” And the times my agency switched, you know how much more training we got because of the switch to the “one” caliber that does it all? F’in ZERO. NO CHANGE. The qual amounts per year remained the same. Absolutely no change in the training regimen occurred. Nada. The bean counters might have been able to go back to their DC masters and state: “look at how much we saved you”…but the average cat on the street, it meant absolutely jack shyte. Adios yourself dbag.

          • Kivaari

            City council members and county commissioners do pay attention.

          • El Mac

            Hmmm…I thought we were talking about the FBI?

          • Kivaari

            No, you introduced Department XYZ.

          • Kivaari

            He is, he’s told us as much.

          • Kivaari

            Those old WW2-style shoulder holsters were terrible. I never lasted long with them without my neck hurting and right arm going numb. The nerve damage was troublesome. Even civilian should holsters of the 1930s-era were better than the GI issue.

          • retfed

            While I’m on the subject, weight is always an important factor, especially when you have to carry a lot of other equipment besides your pistol.
            In the early 1950s, the DOD conducted trials for a replacement for the 1911, and one of the main reasons was weight. A 1911 in the standard military shoulder holster of the time weighed 80 ounces (5 pounds), and was causing nerve damage to the tankers and aircrewmen who had to wear it for long stretches of time. The tests specified an alloy-framed double-action 9mm pistol with a weight of around 25-30 ounces. The trials died on the vine, like so many of them do, due to money issues, and the main result of the whole episode was the S&W Model 39.

          • El Mac

            Weight is an important factor especially for the lowest common denominator cop/agent/operator eh? It’s good to be lazy: “hey they will give us lighter weight pistols!” And frankly, beyond the historical footnote of those trials in the 50s, it is largely irrelevant.

          • Kivaari

            You never “popped a cap”? Said “bang” at a suspect? Did you notice my Glock never had an ammo issue. That when revolvers went out of action it was new Remington and Norma ammo. WE did not use junk. Unlike NYPD using Winchester USA 115 gr. FMJ for street use, we used what was purported to be the very best at the time. You can expect 1:1,000 rounds to have an issue even though it is likely 1:10,000. Even test ammo Winchester sent me had issues. No powder but polishing compound weighing enough to get it past the scales. Stuff happens. Predict it ahead of time. Your a small view man.

          • El Mac

            So you mean to tell me that your Glock cures ammo ills? Dude, you need a check up from the neck up.

          • Kivaari

            What? I said I never had ammo issues in my Glock 17 issue gun. That is unusual since we expect one failure per 1,000 rounds. Yet, ammo we used was great stuff. It went “bang” when needed.

          • El Mac

            Right….but you banged on the 1911 and your revolver because they had problems with faulty ammo. Dunce.

          • Kivaari

            In over 50 years of shooting I’ve seen quite a bit of ammunition fail in just about every thing made. Yes, my issued Glock 17 went over 30,000 rounds without issue. All the department Glock 21s had issues requiring new slides. After I was issued the first G17 and demostrated how I could outshoot everyone using a G21 or the one M1911 being used, to my surprise everyone was issued a G17 or G19 per their choice. Everyone showed dramatic improvement in performance. Missing with a .45 is not as good as hitting with a 9mm.
            Over the years I’ve seen several revolver failures related to ammunition. Some enough to require two people to clear. Others that with factory ammo ruined a gun. Lots of handloading errors.
            I’ve seen lots of M1911s that don’t work. One reason is everyone that has a M1911 is an expert and a pistolsmith.
            When the department issued M1911-types they were nothing but trouble. Even pre-70 Government Model Colt’s.
            Visit any match where 1911s show up and the gun most often breaking down is a M1911. Just the facts.
            You can have a good one, fed good ammo, using good magazines it can perform just fine. I don’t object to you having a 1911. It’s just is not a good general issue pistol for large departments and the FBI. If you don’t understand why that is then you have not been around long enough.

          • El Mac

            Ywan….good night.

          • Kivaari

            Dunce? So mature of you. What are you a 35 year old that never made it past 18?

          • Kivaari

            “Bang”. Is it unusual to refer to a gun shot as going “bang”? Do you use “Ka-pow” or “Pew-pew-pew”?

          • El Mac

            No, they are not going through the door “on fire”.

          • Kivaari

            Having the gun in fire-mode before going through the door works better. Why, would a selector be set to safe?

          • El Mac

            Because, you want to be safe. Why would you take a gun off safe when you don’t yet have a target?

          • Kivaari

            If you are kicking doors you anticipate a target. Keep your finger indexed. In the panic of needing to fire, having a safety is a life taker, taking your life.

          • El Mac

            Kivaari, the 70s called….they want their TTPs back.

          • Kivaari

            “TTPs”?.

          • El Mac

            TTPs…..tactics, techiniques, proceedures. You are dating yourself now… So now you are blaming the FBI of almost 20 years ago for your shortcomings? I bet you voted for Obama too.

          • Kivaari

            The FBI instruction was in 1971. WE students felt the FBI was a good 5 years behind us. We liked two hand shooting.

          • El Mac

            46 years ago. Get over it.

          • Kivaari

            45 but whose counting?

          • El Mac

            You.

          • Kivaari

            The Glock is simple and lightweight. Good reasons to pack one. The Beretta M9 was ambidextrous (bilateral) on the safety. Big and heavy, so that’s a good reason to pack a Glock.

          • Kivaari

            Have you ever watched people drawing their .45 and crunching down on the trigger, without releasing the safety? I have. Lack of training.

          • El Mac

            Uh, get more training. Kinda like complaining about not being able to run. Well, get out and run more.

          • Kivaari

            That’s the point. People are not trained well enough. Police train poorly for the most part. Military outside special operations train almost zip on handgun. In the Navy we trained once on the .45. I carried the commodore’s pistol for about 15 minutes. In the Army NG once per year. In my unit only the two of us that were cops fired expert. The point being the Navy and Army couldn’t care less about handgun training.

          • El Mac

            No, that’s just an excuse. “I can’t do it because WHAAEEEEYYYY (sniff sniff) nobody trained me”. What BS.

          • Kivaari

            You never served in any military unit or LE agency. It is obvious.

          • El Mac

            And you base that on the fact that I don’t accept excuses. How sad. And yeah, you are wrong on both counts.

          • Kivaari

            No, based upon your lack of recognition of the problem. If you served you would know what of which I write. You appear to be the gun guy that can’t see the bigger issue.

          • El Mac

            Oh I recognize the problem all right. It’s the dude in your mirror and the standard fall back line of reasoning that we all must training to the lowest common denominator, be it person, pistol, or ammo. It’s so 70s. Disco balls.

          • Kivaari

            It struck me that your had a narrow view. Small view suggests you can’t see what good for a larger group of people having dramatic differences in body sizes and hand sizes. It’s like the narrow view the FBI had when they adopted the M1076. No one that was thinking was involved in the choice. It turned out to be the most hated gun in FBI history. It was too big on all fronts, too heavy unless wearing SWAT gear, too much recoil and all the other complaints found when the gun guys pick a gun they like without consideration for everyone else.
            It’s why no one is going out and buying huge quantities of M1911s. The few that made it into Marine service I hear are not being used. A couple SWAT teams use them. A few individual officers use them. AND that’s fine.

          • El Mac

            You are the one with the narrow view. You want everyone to bend to the lowest common denominator. You are the one with the mindset that tries to force everyone into something like a 1076. I on the other hand, would much rather folk choose and use what works best for them within a certain parameter…9/40/45, SIG, Glock, Springfield, FN, etc… You are the exact type that believes only YOU know what’s best for EVERYONE. Bullshyte!

          • Kivaari

            WE are discussing the FBI. Not a ten-man SO in Podunk, WI.

          • El Mac

            YOU are the one that brought up city councilmen and county commissioners.

          • Kivaari

            I don’t like cocked and locked. Many don’t like cocked and locked. I don’t like striker-fired pistol that use a system like the SA XD or HK VP9. They may be just fine, but I don’t like cocked and locked. You should understand that, since you are all into packing whatever gun you like.

          • El Mac

            Cool. Rock on!

          • Kivaari

            Scary? I just don’t like fully compressed springs.

          • rexell1951

            Learn to use the tool. Points great for me and a few thousand other folks. Training and lots of use make the nasty old safety a non-issue

          • Kivaari

            That’s the issue. I owned 15 M1911-type pistols. I could shoot them as well as the next guy and better than most. My point being pick a better pistol than the M1911, and many are better, and learn to shoot them. Again, I think in terms of general issue to LEOs and military. Knowing how people handle the M1911 leads me to lean in favor of Glock pistols in 9mm. Either G17-19-34.
            Individuals that will train with a M1911 can pack them as private citizens.
            After 2 decades plus of using Glocks, the three models listed plus several .40 caliber ones, I find I simply would never carry a M1911 or BHP-style pistol for self defense. Sure they work. I simply prefer Glocks. The 9mm is about as near perfect for self-defense as anything. Better than the same guns in .40 or any .45 ACP.
            Many organizations have issued the M1911 over the years. The track record of negligent discharges using them is long. Yes, so is the track record with Glocks. WHY? Well, people are untrained and show little desire to handle firearms safely. Departments need to get serious about training and hold officers to high standards. There are still places that re-qualify once a year and think 50 rounds is adequate. It isn’t. Others are a bit better, making it 50 rounds every month. Others are serious and fire 350 per month. That is more serious training, and you rarely see NGs among those people.

          • Kivaari

            You as a private citizen has a better chance of learning the pistol than do military and LE.

          • El Mac

            Wrong. Anyone can get trained. Unless you are the type to expect someone to hand it to you on a silver platter for free. Anyone can study, learn, train.

          • Kivaari

            It becomes expensive for many young people. Not all can afford a personal firearm and the ammo. Nor do all have a place to shoot. Military can be worse. A lifetime ago I kept two pistols at the YMCA as I couldn’t keep them on ship. I’d grab a bus to the LB Hospital which was next to the LBPD range. I fired more rounds than any of our gunners mates.
            Look at how under-paid some cops are and what they are issued and required to do. It amounts to just about no department training budget. No formal training, or bad training.
            We were lucky, we had a range in town and small agencies could send a new officer to us to “fix ’em” when they came back from the academy still having issues. With good instruction we could get them back on track. It took a long time to make administrators come around to learn the value of training, to avoid law suits.
            Many places had/have administrators that hate spending money on training of any kind. Look at all the poor tactics and bad shooting in large metro departments. They have money set aside for such screw ups. Spend more on training and that pool can be reduced.
            We keep seeing insane numbers of rounds fired with low hits and cases where no shooting should have taken place. Too many innocent bystanders are hit.
            TRAINING saves lives.

          • El Mac

            Training does save lives. We agree. And if your deepartment is not providing it, then seek it out through other means. If that means cutting back on your consumption in other areas, then do so. Think Starbucks, etc. There are tons of training opportunities. Many are not high cost deals. And an absolute shyte ton of training can be done at home without ever firing a round. There are great video and publications out there for a very nominal fee. If you call yourself a professional, there is NO excuse not to be trained.

          • rexell1951

            I am retired LE. Carried and trained with both the Browning Hi Power and Colt Combat Commander. I was also selected to go through the first transition course for our agency to Glock (20). I then had to assist in transitioning the remainder of the agency, and officers from other agencies. Always maintained my Browning, and carried it when OD and after retirement. Recently have gotten back into shooting more. Prefer the 1911 frame, of which I have two, Ruger SR 1911 and Colt Delta Elite. Basically it is up to the individual to find what works best for them and not be cut from the same works for everyone mold.

          • El Mac

            Amen!

          • Kivaari

            That’s what I said for individuals. The G20 is a poor choice for general issue. Same with the G21. They are too large for a lot of users.

          • Kivaari

            You did not notice that is what I said? I said individuals should pick one gun and learn it. A brain conditioned M1911 user will shoot it well – usually. YOU missed my point on picking an AGENCY GUN. Pick a practical pistol that will work for most officers and deliver what is needed. If a few fall outside the limits than deal with them as individuals. But to buy an over-sized pistol in an ill suited caliber for everyone becuase the range master, at 6’6″ with ham-fists for hands should not pick a general issue gun, like a M20-21 Glock or M1911. If a G19 is too small, issue him/her a G17 with the large grip adapter. NO one needs a G20 for LE work.

    • Kivaari

      How about accepting the grooves and use a Gen 3 19.

      • Anonymoose

        Just drop in conversion barrels to their current Gen3 23s.

        • Kivaari

          Do they work well? I’ve only seen the 40/357 barrel swaps.

          • Anonymoose

            Yeah, as long as you don’t just slap a 19 barrel in a 23.

      • El Mac

        Because why?

        • Kivaari

          It’s COTS. It’s proven and is probably the best to be had.

          • El Mac

            So YOU say.

          • Kivaari

            Since they use G23s, a G19 makes sense.

          • El Mac

            Well now…again, your info (as well as your TTPs) are out of date. They stopped issuing the G23 YEARS ago. It is by far the most problematic of their inventory. As for the G19, gross. Why issue a sawed off gun at all? Full size, or go home.

          • Kivaari

            I use both the 17 and 19. The 19 is easier to conceal. They work. The .40s ARE more problematic. 9mm rules.

          • El Mac

            It may be easier to conceal, at least in your mind. And that’s ok. To me a G19 feels like it was made for a Hobbit. No thanks.

          • Kivaari

            Then carry a bigger gun. That’s what I’ve been saying. But, use a gun the agency supports. Use the same ammo. AND by now everyone should know the 9mm will perform the job. We all know by now, that having a .45 doesn’t offer much to the fight. WE all know the .40 brings more negative issues to the system than it fixes. There is a reason to go to pistols that fit the hands of most when the agency is buying them by the truck load.

          • Kivaari

            Tens of thousands of people use the M19 because it IS easier to conceal. If the demand for a more concealable Glock 9mm, then we probably would not have seen the G19-26-43. The 19 IS easier to conceal. That’s not just my opinion.

          • El Mac

            Well goody!

  • Based on reading the contract requirements, it will likely be a G17/G19 Gen 4 without finger grooves, with Trijicon Bright n Tuff and/or Orange HD sights.

    Is the FBI going with 124gr +p or 147gr 9×19 ammo?

    • El Duderino

      Not sure, but 99.99% positive it won’t be 115gr Silvertips 😉

      • Anonymoose

        Pretty sure they’re sticking with the PDX1, most likely the 124gr version.

      • The irony is that in the tests I’ve found of the 115gr Silvertip, it actually meets FBI standards for penetration and expansion (0.56″ and 14″ penetration) when fired through light clothing, which is what Michael Platt was wearing. Not so much for barriers and auto glass, but that wasn’t the issue in Miami.

        And as I recall reading, “the shot that failed” actually penetrated well and expanded. Given that it first passed through his arm, then through the length of his chest, it was overall pretty solid performance.

        What’s really bizarre is that the Winchester Silvertip is loaded really light, 1130 ft/s from the g19 in the test I just watched. Had it just been loaded to +P levels of 1250-1300 ft/s, it would likely have passed the FBI protocols through heavy clothing as well; in the 4 layer denim test I just watched on TNoutoors9, @ 1130fps it penetrated 11.25″ and expanded to 0.66.”

        Had they just increased the velocity and/or redesigned the hollowpoint to expand a bit less (0.55″) this whole bizarre 30 year caliber saga could have been avoided.

        Of course then we wouldn’t have 10mm, 40 sw, and .357 sig, as well as all of these next gen JHP designs, so I guess it’s all for the best.

        • Big Daddy

          The issue is consistent performance. The 115 grain bullets, even bonded JHP do not consistently perform. The only recommended 115 is the Barnes from everything I have read, all others are 124 or 147. The best performers for both penetration and expansion have been the GD 124+P and the HST 147 SP. The Horandy Critical Duty 135 +P is barrier blind but does not expand as well. If you have to shoot through car doors and glass the Hornady round is probably the way to go.

          • Yeah no, 124gr is the way to go over 115gr. It’s just that even adding a bit more powder to their old Silvertip would have likely served them just as well as their initial foray into .40 SW. And then from there they could have just worked on improving projectile tech to the point we are at today.

          • LG

            Lehigh defense is a generation ahead.

          • Big Daddy

            Have you ever used it them a gunfight? Have you seen reports of Lehigh working better than the 2 rounds I mentioned? No you did not because it doesn’t exist. I suggest you do some research into terminal performance and wound ballistics. They may actually work on certain game hunting but as a self-defense round no way and do not recommend it for anyone to use in their defensive firearms please. You do not know what you are talking about and can endanger someone’s life.

          • Anon

            You’re completely right, what people fail to understand is that Lehigh’s are designed to make a bigger temporary stretch cavity in ballistics gel, which for pistol rounds do little to no damage.

          • Kivaari

            Temporary stretch is essentially a non-event.

          • Shooter McGavin

            Not acccurate. The best performers through barriers have been Speer GDHP 147gr, Speer GDHP “G2” 147gr, Winchester Ranger Bonded 147gr, Winchester PDX1 Bonded 147gr….see a pattern??? 147gr bonded rounds are heavier, slower projectiles that typically penetrate deeper because of slightly less expansion.

            Hornady Critical Duty is barrier blind? Might claim to be but not really…it’s not even a bonded round, and it has inferior terminal performance compared to Speer, Federal, Winchester and Remington bonded rounds in LE barrier tests. Good luck getting it to expand reliably when fired out of your CC micro-pistol too.

            That being said, I still believe Fed HST & Ranger T-Series (124 or 147gr) represent the best personal carry options on the market. Most likely SD situation is NO BARRIER within a few feet.

            Oh yeah, and hit what your aiming at…otherwise load up with blanks and hope the perp gets scared from the “loud bang and muzzle flash”.

        • El Duderino

          Generally agree — though with the same HP bullets, it’s most common that higher velocity = greater expansion & less penetration. You’d have to redesign the bullet a bit. You see this a lot with pistol bullets fired from rifles e.g. .44 Mag JHPs making poor hunting bullets from rifles.

          • You’re right, a redesign to limit expansion would likely be advisable. However that would have been as simple as new swaging die at Winchester, with a wider, shallower hollow point and reduced scoring on the jacket. That or the exact same design, bumped up to 124gr and loaded to 1200fps.

            All the FBI would have had to do is tell Winchester what spec’s needed to be met for penetration and expansion, and they could have done it.

            Way, way easier than creating two completely new calibers and projectiles for those new calibers, which is what happened with the 10mm and .40.

        • idahoguy101

          The FBI brought pistols to a rifle fight was the problem.

          • Kivaari

            Very much the norm for the FBI. They portray themselves as the “elite police”, but history shows they are just as screw-up prone as the rest of us.

    • john huscio

      Federal HST 147gr +p was the new official very round.

      • Interesting. Seems like a 158gr .40 SW (same sectional density as a 124gr .355) @ 1,100 fps / 425 ft/lbs would have been a better and easier option than an $80 million re-arming program.

        • Big Daddy

          Much more to it than that. The 9mm modern bonded JHP has an excellent record in police shootings stopping their target. GD 124 +P and HST 147 SP seems to be the best.

          • Absolutely, I’m not disputing the performance of 9mm. But if they are going for the heavy and slow 147gr 9mm +P, it seems that an ever so slightly heavier .40 at similar velocity would offer nearly identical recoil and terminal performance, at a fraction of the cost.

            9mm +P is typically run at around 38kPsi, whereas a 158gr .40 at 1,100 could likely be run at around 33kPsi. So I’d imagine the recoil between a 147gr 9mm+p 1050ft/s @ 38kPsi is likely comparable to a 158gr .40 @ 1100fps @ 33kPsi. With the added benefit of 65 ft/lbs more energy and likely a slightly larger expansion.

            TLDR: if they are going with a 147gr .355″ projectile, why not just go with a 158gr .400″ projectile at nearly the same velocity?

          • Marc

            The idea of an unnecessary “$80 million re-arming program” is false because if they weren’t buying new 9mm Glocks they would have to keep on buying new .40 Glocks and I doubt those are any cheaper. They’re not throwing away a new shipment of .40 Glocks but replacing Glocks that would have to be replaced anyway.

          • At a LEO contract price of $325 (what I recall the SEAL price was for the G19) $80 million is 246,000 Glocks. Obviously the FBI has about 35,000 agents, so no doubt most of that contract is ammo, accessories, parts. But it’s still inescapable that quite a few Glocks are being purchased – likely nearly the entire department is being switched over to 9mm.

            Given that a Glock .40 has a minimum service life of 20,000 rounds with routine maintenance (some competitive shooters are up to the 80’s in theirs) and that the FBI course of fire is 60 rounds, and only 13,000 of the 35K are Field Agents … I’d be highly surprised if even a fraction of their existing Glock 22’s and 23’s need replacing any time soon.

            Therefore I think it’s accurate to call this an $80 million dollar rearmament program. Whose purpose is to hold 2 more 147gr 9mm subsonics than their existing .40 Glocks.

            I think simply developing a low recoil 158gr .40 SW that cloned the recoil/ballistics of the 147 gr +P 9mm would have made a lot more sense.

          • El Mac

            Spilt milk now.

          • Marc

            If the FBI buys 35,000 Glocks for $325 that would be about $11.4 million.
            So the majority of the contract isn’t new pistols replacing perfectly serviceable pistols but spares, maintenance (anyway costs) and ammo – which of course is cheaper in 9 mm than in .40.
            Either way, it’s not a $80 million re-arming program.

          • If they buy 35,000 new Glock 9mm for $11.4 million, then spend the rest on parts, mags, and spares in 9mm, then buy millions of dollars in 9mm ammo – that is a rearmament program by any reasonable standard.

            It’s inconceivable that they would buy 35,000 Glock 9mm’s, and then just slowly issue them out when the agent’s .40 needs replacing. It seems far more likely that they will in fact be “new pistols replacing perfectly serviceable pistols.”

          • Big Daddy

            You need to do scientific testing and than put them out on the street for a few years to see how they do in actual shootings. For instance the WInchester Ranger T 127 +P+ does terrible on testing but as far as I know has a good track record on the street by LEOs according to Mas Ayoob.

          • I think it’s the +p+ 115gr 9BPLE load that does poorly in testing, but was phenomenal on the street. I ended up buying a case of it after reading an article Mas put out on it.

            The Winchester Ranger +p+ 127gr is on the DocGKR list of approved loads, which is a fairly short list.

          • Big Daddy

            It could be but the 127 T does poorly in gel testing as have all 115 grain rounds except for the Barnes. Like really poorly, pedals coming off the 127. I like gel testing for it’s scientific purposes but in reality the only thing is to see how it works once it enters a human body from different angles and through arms and clothing which is what a real world shooting would encounter on the street.

          • Shooter McGavin

            Agree. Good points made here in this thread.

    • Harry’s Holsters

      They’re crazy if they go with the orange instead of the yellow HDs.

      • I recall the solicitation mentioning Orange, so that seems more likely than the Yellow.

      • El Mac

        Bull crap.

        • Harry’s Holsters

          Yellow is brighter on the color spectrum and this easier to pick up. So more or less science not bull crap. Unless people with color blindness can’t pick it up than I don’t see the issue.

          • El Mac

            Yeah, not so much…it full brightness, those yellow sights turn into white sights…the orange works against a larger variety of back grounds and doesn’t fade out in bright sunlight.

          • Harry’s Holsters

            I’ve never had that happen shooting in a variety of light.

          • Kivaari

            Optic Yellow is the proven fastest color for the eye to notice. Reds and oranges are bad when lighting is poor.

  • Anonymoose

    They were already using 22s, 23s, and 27s for everyone except for the HRT. It would make more sense to just stick with those and pop in 9mm conversion barrels. Screw “upgrading” to Gen4 until they actually stop supporting Gen3, or downgrading to Gen2. This “no fingergrooves” thing is ridiculous.

    • Harry’s Holsters

      Will they trade these in to glock is my question? Or will they go to a smaller law enforcement agency support program?

      • Kivaari

        The FBI I believe grinds them up.

        • Harry’s Holsters

          Unfortunate to say the least.

          • El Mac

            It is federal law.

  • freethinker

    Does this mean the .40 is out? Like COMPLETELY OUT of law enforcement? I was under the impression that law enforcement, for the most part, was wedded to the.40? Hmm, good thing my two .40’s both have .357sig barrels, which btw, is a much better round. A boutique round, but a superior round nonetheless.

    • Big Daddy

      Yes it does, that round is going to due a slow painful death until nobody is making ammo for it. I changed out all my barrels to Lone Wolf conversion to 9mm. Yeah if not the 9mm the 357SIG round is like a super hot 9 and my choice. Different bullet design but similar. I think with the SIG round they fear over penetration. If they worked out the kinks with the G2 Gold Dot all is perfect, They want the penetration of the 135 Critical Duty with the expansion of the Gold Dot/HST lines and less recoil too. I think you can get one of the other, the Hornady line doesn’t expand well but is barrier blind, you can get 2 out of three but not all three..

      • Marc

        There will be plenty of non-LE demand for .40 ammo to not run out of production. You can still buy 8 mm Steyr.
        But its heydays are probably over.

        • Big Daddy

          Companies now are so corporate minded and they’ll switch production to what makes them the most money. It will become a real niche round and prices might soar. Also development of defense loads will stop or slow down a lot. Not so for the 9mm it will increase. This might take some time though. It seems most volume shooters I know use 9mm and the once in a while range guy use the .40, that factors in. Just from my limited experiences.

          To pay for a conversion barrel I wonder how many 9mm rounds would it take over the .40 being fired? Let me see if I save even 10 cents a round it would take at least 1000 rounds to pay for it. In my book that’s pretty good, I shoot a lot.

          My next purchase and hopefully final Glock to round it off to an even dozen will be a G20. I figure if you’re going to go .40 you might as well step up and go all the way. I might buy a .40 S&W barrel for it and buy up some .40 ammo while it’s almost as cheap as 9mm. The G21 has less recoil than a G41, I noticed the same thing with the G20 and G40. They are heavier and the slides are bigger and heavier.

          • If you get the G20, you can get the .40 SW barrel, but handload the .40’s with a longer OAL due to the 10mm length magazine.

            My buddy shoots 165gr’s @ 1300fps/ 619ft/lbs from his 40 conversion. This gives you pretty close to 10mm energy, but with much cheaper brass. Losing a 10mm Starline case is a bummer.

          • Kivaari

            They wont swap barrels. FBI types seem to cycle guns through as disposable items replacing them every few years. I always think a pistol lasts a lifetime, but they seriously wont, well Glocks come close. They wouldn’t want to issue a pistol that has .40 caliber imprinted on the slide an 9mm on the barrel.

          • Big Daddy

            I like the DOD when it comes to that, they just re-stamp it. A lot of agencies notice the .40 creates more breakage, I wonder if that’s because they do not do maintenance on them. A Glock must have it’s recoil assembly replaced often. Clean, lube, replace springs, no issues. Put a line through the .40 and add 9×19 CON, for conversion and put a new barrel in it, that’s what the Marines would do or they used to do, they kept some of their M79s and 1911s and needed the M79s for Iraq. The M203 was to long to shoot through the Humvee cupola so they issued the M79s. I’m sure the FBI would feel like the red headed step child if they had to use refurbished guns, only brand new shiny ones for them.

          • Kivaari

            Like the .45 GAP?

      • John

        It’s funny. A couple years ago someone figured out that if you change out the locking block and slide assembly, a .40 P229 can be converted into a 9mm P228. P228 parts kits were sold for cheap and there was a mass exodus of .40 owners

      • Kivaari

        I don’t remember if I have ever fired a single round of .357 SIG. We used the +P+ 9mm, and when the .357 showed up, the published data was within 10-15 fps of what we were already using. I didn’t see a BALLISTIC advantage, just the fact that it eliminated the fear of stuffing +P+ into old guns, and giving the same performance. Those that use it have told me the SIG has a big blast, bright flash and stiff recoil. Since I was using the +P+ I couldn’t figure out how so little difference in velocity could translate into all that “extra stuff”.

        • Big Daddy

          +P+ 9mm for about 124-127 grain is 1300 fps, a modern .357 SIG is 1350, it was supposed to be ‘as far as I know’ 1450 fps.

          Put that in your pocket because it’s all about the design of the bullet itself. I’m thinking one reason they brought the velocity of the SIG round down was because of the effectiveness of of the bullet itself, it might have failed at the higher velocities. More velocity does not equate to better results, bullet design does. I have looked at all the different bullets from the 9mm, 40, .357 SIG, 45 ACP and many other calibers to see the difference in construction.

          All you have to do is look at the the hollow tip of the rounds. Look at a short barrel .38 +P gold dot, it’s different than the regular .38 +P GD, even the weight is different, 135 vs. 125. There are 2 different GD .357 SIG rounds, one for less penetration designed for people like Air Marshals, this was explained to me by a guy at SGAmmo.

          Look at some Youtube ballistic tests, although not as scientific as the FBI testing a couple of guys are pretty good and I trust their testing. I saw a test of the Underwood 10mm bonded JHP gold dot. They use the .40 180 grain bullet. Well the test showed that even though the bullet was bonded there was separation, the bullet was mangled and looked like a meteorite.

          It failed in terms of what it was designed to do although the actual effect of that round on a human could be catastrophic for the person receiving it. A 10mm 200 grain XTP Hornady Underwood failed and did not pass the FBI protocol as far as I remember. At close range again that 10mm’s effect on a person might be catastrophic because of the power of that round.

          So my point is that it’s all about the design of the bullet and overall round itself. Velocity, weight, whatever means little it’s the design of the bullet and round first and foremost. What it does from the time the firing pin hits the primer until it stops moving, what is it doing and what did it do, that’s all that’s counts. That goes for hunting ammo as well as self-defense or tactical use.

          This is what I have learned from doing a lot of study and research on the subject. It’s difficult for someone who does not have access to statistics and information that LEOs do, yet they do not take advantage of it.

    • Shooter McGavin

      Plenty of agencies still use 40SW, so not entirely, but yes it looks like a slow exodus. Overall demand will decline and supply will go down eventually. In the short term, next 2-3 years, you should be able to buy all the 40SW you want at a very GOOD price!!

    • Joe

      Is it superior in the same vein as .270 Winchester is superior to .30-06 Springfield?

    • Rus

      .40 is still in a lot of LE holsters… Even if you see a mass exodus, look at your fav gun store shelves, can you still find 10mm, .41 mag, etc… Calibers take forever to die, I found .41AE on a shelf four years after they stopped importing it – and I think they only imported for 2 shipments —- AM I RIGHT? CAN I GET A HELL YEAH?!?!

    • Anonymoose

      It’s not out. It’s just the FBI switching. Lots of local PDs and Sheriff’s Depts still issue and will continue issuing .40s.

      • Kivaari

        It will last a long time.

  • Big Daddy

    I think there’s more to this trigger thing and the FBI identified the whole shooting left thing as I have. It’s the trigger and a curved body but flat trigger face takes the whole left shooting thing out of the equation. After using a McNally in a G19 I noticed the difference immediately. It’s not the serrations though it the beveled sides and that tang safety thing in the middle of the trigger, it forces some people to put uneven pressure on the trigger. Unless you use the crease of the finger instead of the meaty part on it to put pressure on the trigger there is a tendency for a lot of people to shoot it left, Many adjust the sights for it, I don’t I try to use the correct pressure on it and continually work at it.

    I wonder why they did not choose the SIG 320? I think the SIG overall is a better platform with a better trigger and more inherent modularity. The only thing that I cannot get used to is the higher bore axis of the 320. I have a theory about that too.

    • Harry’s Holsters

      I think you nailed it on the Sig’s bore axis. Also the size of the gun is just a bit more. I think sig has a better grip system for standard issue but it also requires significantly more storage.

      • There’s also a lot less training required by sticking with Glock, which they have used for a decade +, to a new platform that just came out two years ago.

    • J.T.

      I think they went with the Glock since there will be close to zero re-training involved for both users and armorers, along with Glock likely offering them a really good trade-in deal for credit towards the new guns.

      • Big Daddy

        I agree on that but the whole trigger change intrigues me.

  • Ghost930

    Surprise!……..Not. This is what most of them have been carrying for a decade or better.

    • Seamus Bradley

      The surprise is that Glock actually made changes to its product line more than once in a decade. Even bigger news if Glock announces next year that it will be available for civilian sales.

  • Joseph Goins

    While the FBI get a new Glock in 9MM, Immigration thinks their employees can handle some more manly firepower in the form of up to 600,000,000 over five years of “9mm Luger or 9mm Luger +P Caliber Ammunition (124-147 Grain).” I guess their agents are too big for 115gr.

    https://www.fbo. gov/utils/view?id=09d7d833b067200103abcc1d51f168f4

    • ARCNA442

      I’m pretty sure the FBI issues 147gr. As far as I know, none of the big players issue 115gr duty ammo.

  • Joseph Goins

    While the FBI is getting Glocks, the Department of State wants .357 revolvers.

    https://www.fbo. gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=ae68c525865d8c3e700769938ea83eac&tab=core&_cview=1

    • 25 revolvers is kind of a drop in the bucket. One suspects it is for a foreign aid client.

      • Yeah, but you’d need like a 7 gallon bucket to hold 25 revolvers.

        • Major Tom

          Only a 5 gallon bucket if the revolvers are snubbies.

          • The order was for S&W Model 66 with 4.25″ barrels.

            It is a bit ridiculous to compare a $14,358.75 order to a contract worth up to $85 million.

  • El Mac

    How is this surprising to anyone?

  • Preston Bhatti

    G19 without finger-grooves? I’ll gladly take a loss on my Gen4.

  • Independent George

    What? They changed sidearms without spending ten years and $25M of getting wined and dined by vendors intensive testing and review? Inconceivable!

    • El Mac

      Not really….same sidearm, different caliber.

    • Seamus Bradley

      The Army could learn a thing or two.

  • Arandor Thinnorion

    This is absolutely the least surprising news I’ve ever heard. If they had chosen literally ANY other gun, I would be surprised. Even an M&P or XD would have been surprising. If they had chosen a Beretta, CZ, Ruger, or SIG, I would be stupefied. I am agape that anyone find this surprising.

    • El Mac

      Yup. Solid.

    • Big Daddy

      IMO the SIG 320 is a better gun. However I own only Glocks.

    • Frank

      I don’t see any police agency picking the XD of all guns.

      • Kivaari

        I see Glocks and a few HKs. A very few M&Ps.

        • Anonymoose

          I see a lot of Glocks and a few SIGs in Ohio. My local PD uses P220s in .45 and 226s and 229s in .40.

  • Dickie

    Think they will adopt it with the MOS version?

    • JumpIf NotZero

      No. Despite the bandwagon, handgun optics are mostly a joke.

      • Shooter McGavin

        What?? You mean this is a joke? I don’t get it.

      • Seamus Bradley

        Handgun optics are new, but no joke. Simple, easy to use and easy to see with aging eyes. “Put the dot on the bad guy and press the trigger” is no different than “point and click.” K.I.S.S. principle at its finest. In 10 years there will be pistol optics for everything.

  • spencer60

    I might actually buy another Glock if they get rid of those dang groves. They fit my fingers almost perfectly wrong.

    • J.T.

      My fingers fit between the grooves on the 17 but not the 19 or 26. I would buy a 19 without the grooves since then gen 2 guns aren’t easy for me to find locally at a good price.

  • Lance

    Same make as current issue just new caliber.

  • BjornTheBrave

    It’s a bloody shame so many first rate agencies across the world are moving away from the P226.

    • Michael Cameron

      yes, how dare those agencies not choose a heavier, lower capacity, and more expensive firearm.

  • ramblin84

    Maybe they entered the Gen2 lower with Gen4 slides.

    • Rodney Jenkins

      Doubt it.

  • retfed

    And I thought the fix was in for the Sig P320!
    FBI and Glock have a long history together. The Feebs have authorized personally-owned Glocks in 9mm or .40 S&W since the early 90s, back when the issue pistol was the P226. Quite a few agents bought and carried their own Glocks since they were so much lighter (and in most cases smaller) than the issue Sigs.
    In addition, Glocks are proven, and the P320 isn’t. The Feebs got burned once, when it authorized the 10mm S&W autos around 1989-90 and had so many problems they dumped them and went with the P226. Maybe they’ll let someone else prove out the P320.

  • Gorilla Biscuit

    Super secret fake prototype picture…..

  • Seamus Bradley

    I wonder if the US Army will sit up and take notice. The Glock 19 recently won the NSW contract and is very popular in the SF/ODA circles. As tough as those units are I wager that the FBI will use its pistols a thousand times more than any unit in the US Army. Additionally the Army Chief of Staff basically said he would prefer buy a pistol from Cabela’s to simplify the ridiculous military weapon’s contract rules, this seems like it would provide easy political cover to just “get it done”.

  • rexell1951

    Poor little Feebs…..They adopted the 10mm in response to agents getting killed in a shootout. BUT they then had that loaded down to the .40, because the accountants, lawyers and ladies that they were hiring could not become proficient with the hard kicking 10. So now they are lowering their standards again…. Why not just drop back to the .22 rim fire?

    • Cmex

      There were other problem with 10×23. 10mm Auto was also expensive, the guns for it were expensive, it was hard to get enough ammo, and the weapons for it had mechanical problems. Additionally, the large size of the handguns for 10×23 posed a challenge for people without large hands. 6-footer men with large hands are actually a pretty distinct minority of people, even in America. You are forgetting that the FBI was not formed Seven Samurai style by rounding up every grizzled gunfighter who wanted to take a bite out of crime. The FBI has always been a white collar agency filled with college graduates and intellectual types. Gunfighting is a very small part of what they do. Now, with that in mind, I don’t see any real reason why they couldn’t train everyone on some basic things and then just give advanced combat training with the 10mm to the people who got selected to be field agents. Of course, running 2 separate pools of weapons is expensive. That would be an ideal solution and more closely resemble European law enforcement, but we Americans believe that all sworn officers should be ready and able to take action whenever the need arises instead of having to wait for special armed tactical teams to show up. If something happens and an agent has to respond, the nearest agent available may be a chubby 5’1″ black lady with stubby fingers. The point is that she is still in the fight and is preferable to forced impotence when the select badasses aren’t there.

      Anyway, 10mm Auto’s recoil does present an issue for use in an organization with extremely diverse people. A rule of firearms is anyone who can shoot x load of y caliber in z gun can shoot even better and faster with a lighter load in a smaller caliber. A simple truth is that gun people don’t apply by the truckload for the FBI or any police or security service, really. These people are usually civilians with at most minimal practical firearms knowledge and experience. They have to be taught how to shoot well quickly, and that is far easier to do with a small caliber. It’s also cheaper and allows for more rounds. More rounds = more practice = greater attainment. Honestly, it doesn’t take much to get someone up to basic law enforcement handgun standards, but training only has so much time and there are so many other things they will need to do far more often than shoot. Another thing overlooked is that starting someone off with too powerful a caliber, especially in a handgun, can lead to problems like flinching and jerking, which are very difficult habits to train out of people and will reemerge spectacularly when they are under pressure.

      Additionally, the bulk of people calling for 10mm Auto are gun guys. They already know how to shoot pistols and manage recoil. And from what I remember seeing over the years about heights and sizes of gun guys, they tend to oftentimes be somewhat bigger than average, theoretically giving them some prepackaged physical gifts to help tame their weapons. I’m not big. I’m 5’5″, which is average female height in America, and i have to say that at my size, you have to improvise to do some things that larger men can take for granted, like hit a pistol magazine release button with a thumb; I have to do it with my middle finger wrapped around under the trigger guard; the normal way is a stretch for me on something as slender as a Tokarev and requires weakening my firing grip — on a bigger gun, I would be completely incapable of doing it by this method. The larger gun of 10mm Auto would present a training hazard by making it impossible for much of the class to use it as directed, thereby either forcing the acceptance of substandard performance or forcing the introduction of unorthodox techniques which would take even more time to introduce and master.

      From a fighting perspective, 10mm Auto doesn’t make much sense to pick over 40S&W or 9×19. It’s a heavier weapon with harder recoil and fewer rounds which don’t gain enough in lethality to make up for the reduced capacity and speed. And the lower amount that can be practiced with the need for more practice to attain equivalent mastery of larger calibers means that the shooters will perform worse. In a study of handgun effectiveness across more than a thousand shootings, it was found that just about all handgun rounds are equally effective at stopping someone, but rounds weaker than 380ACP are also disproportionately more likely to fail to incapacitate. Other than that, from 38SPC to 44Magnum, all rounds performed pretty similarly, and yes, even mighty 44Magnum isn’t that great.

      • retfed

        On top of that, the full-house 10mm beat the guns to death in a hurry. The Smith 1006s and 1066s issued and authorized by the Bureau developed mechanical problems to the point where they were all pulled within a few years and replaced with Sig P226s.
        When you’re considering one caliber to issue to an entire agency of over 10,000 people, you have to consider factors like hand size, controllability in recoil, and concealability. Macho BS about manly men has no place in a serious discussion.

        • Cmex

          Retfed, you and Rexell1951 ought to have a talk about this caliber and law enforcement. Looks like you two could have a very interesting discussion.

      • rexell1951

        I helped I’m the transition of Mt department to 10mm after the FBI announced it to be the caliber of choice, and our chief declared that to be gospel. We trained about 100 people of all shapes sizes and genders. All had to pass a qualification with 90%, both day and night.

        During the 15 – 20 years the department carried the 10mm, all confrontations ended with bad guy shot with 10mm deceased. The department switched to .45 acp due to ammo scaricity and costs. All shootings since have ended in wounded bad guys, not always incapacitated.

        The department is now dropping to 9mm, which puts everyone back at the starting point. The demand for larger capacity mags is pretty much destroyed is you read the report of the average number of rounds discharged in a fight, 2.

        • Cmex

          Which department? Where? Care to back that up with news stories or reports, Rexell? 100% fatality rate in shot perpetrators seems very high and doesn’t seem to support observed outcomes in gunshot victims, From looking at a post on TTAG called “‘Is 22 Best for Self-Defense'”, it seems as if 44 Magnum does not perform exceptionally well in the lethality department — not much different than frequent service calibers like 9×19, 40S&W, and 45ACP — all those perform roughly the same, with 9×19 actually having a slightly higher effective performance rate than the other two. 357 Magnum did the best out of all handgun rounds, but even with it, the fatality rate maxed out at 30%. The reason why I bring up these two rounds is because 10×23 is approximately comparable to 357 Magnum and can just touch the floor of 44 Magnum, and the two magnum rounds, as analogues, do not perform up to what you describe a fairly comparable round doing.

          I would also like to hear how the people and pistols performed. How were shot times, groupings, comfort with the hardware, number of rounds fired per exchange, rounds on target, proportion of center mass and headshots versus other parts of the body? Here’s your chance to show us all.

          • rexell1951

            You seem to deal mainly with statistics. The shootings I mentioned were few in number 2-4, over a span of about 15 years. Some of them I witnessed as having been involved in the following investigations. Others were related by co-workers after my retirement. As a statistical base they are nothing to go on. All shootings were close range. one head shot and the remainder center mass. I don’t think more than 2-3 rounds per encounter were fired, and I know in at least one incident only one round was fired.

            I did not know that I had to back up or justify to anyone on the board. You seem rather belligerent that anyone should have anything to say which does not match your statistics.

            I personally have nothing against the 9mm other than I consider it to be marginal. I have carried one in the past and will continue to do so for the simple fact it is much easier to conceal under minimal loose clothing in the Texas heat than either of my 1911 frame pistols. I do load the heaviest bullet I can find into the 9’s that I do carry.

            I don’t do open carry as I consider it to be, for the most part, an idiotic thing to draw attention to oneself unnecessarily is a bad situation by openly displaying a weapon. I will also state that when I am traveling anywhere that raises my normal level of caution, I WILL carry the larger pistol.

            My original post was basically sarcasm that anyone would put a whole lot of faith in anything the FBI comes up with. The FBI was responsible for my agency and a few others adopting it in the first place, when they announced, after great study, that it was THE ROUND to carry/issue.
            They immediately downgraded to the .40, because the 10mm was too much pistol for their accountants and lawyers to handle, which led to watered down 10mm ammunition. I trained folks to shoot the Glock 20 and personally carried one for the last several years I was employed. They can be a fine weapon, in the hands of someone who desires to become proficient with it. They can also be a great danger in the hands of folks that do the minimum they can get by with when it comes to training.

            In one of my comments I basically said I believe it should be up to the individual. Some folks will never be able to handle a large frame pistol or revolver. My 5’4″ , just over 100 lb. bride became proficient with a Redhawk .44 magnum revolver because she wished to shoot silhouette steel, and her .357 was marginal at knocking them down for the score. She recently wanted to try my guns to decide what she wanted to carry with a CHL. My 1911 rocked her on the first shot, but she adjusted her grip and stance and finished the magazine , into the 10 ring. BTW, she selected my old Browning Hi Power as her weapon of choice.

            I don’t care what you carry, or don’t carry. I hope that you practice with it and look at and watch other shooters to see what they are doing and what their weapons are doing, other than just reading and regurgitating stats, which can and are manipulated daily to fit opposing points of view.

          • Cmex

            If the shots were applied as judiciously as you claim, I see no reason to doubt you. I asked because literature on the whole would contradict your claim, but I am aware that exceptions exist. Your stats seemed odd, because they were the kind of reports I would expect to see from rifle wounds instead of pistol wounds. I couldn’t tell your post was sarcasm, given the great many people who post 100% seriously like that. I’m not trying to twist numbers to reach a Nat F contrary to facts conclusion. Now if I were saying “22LR is the ultimate defense round because of what I say about these numbers”, I’d be doing that, and I take him to task when I think he’s playing numerical games.

            I’m a bit short on cash right now, so I’m practicing less live, but I still take time each day to do some work with the airsoft guns.

    • retfed

      The FBI has over 10,000 agents. They’re investigators first and shooters second, and they come in all sizes and flavors. Full-sized 10mm pistols, are, among other things, too big to be concealed under a jacket, and concealability is a prime concern in choosing a weapon for plainclothes officers. Macho BS about manly men has no place in a serious discussion.

  • Thank you for that clarification. I had just done a quick google of total employees, and had assumed that even the staff were issued firearms. If only 14K are issued pistols, then it’s hard to imagine how it added up to $80 Million.

  • Old Gringo

    Pretty funny, I already have one, a Glock 19, Gen 1, that I bought in July 1990. I carried it as a park ranger and for CCW and still have it. I was also a federal investigator and carried everything from wheel guns to 1911s and I have a comment on what agencies like the FBI prefer. First the handgun must be concealed under a garment at all times. All the lights and lasers and g whiz stuff like picitanny rails are wasted..nobody wants anything extra on a gun that needs to come out fast. The tactical units have different needs by the average agent does not want all that mall ninja crap. Yes, I have a light that fits on the high capacity 9mm that sits in my camper so I can see when I take my little dogs out to pee in the dark. But for a carry handgun by a professional they are a waste of time and no real professional wants extra parts on a gun. Think about it most FBI gun fights are when affecting arrests at a home or pulling over a car. The distance will seldom be beyond 20 feet or so, point and shoot. Simple is better. Now as to going back to the 9mm, I have mixed thoughts. I like it a bunch, but believe it should be left to the discretion of the agent. There are lots of wimpy agents who cannot handle a larger caliber, but people who are shooters should be allowed bigger calibers. IMHO

  • Secret Squirrel

    Gen 5, no finger groves! I’m in.

  • Cmex

    And absolutely nobody is surprised.

  • Jack Evony

    The FBI doesn’t enforce laws anymore, so why do they even need handguns?

    • El Mac

      Stupid comment right there.

  • Steven Johnson

    I want one too! Anybody know when Glock will begin production?

  • pilot25

    This has everything to do with money and cost. Why outfit thousands of employees with a $1000 gun vs. a $500. In the eyes of an accountant who’s life isn’t dependent on a quality pistol it’s an obvious choice. I know a few FBI agents who carry there personal pistol instead of the .40 cal issued one that definitely isn’t going to change now.