Another KSG Hand Accident/Negligent Discharge With Injury

TheGunWriter posted up a reader’s photo of his hand after a discharge in which his hand was in the way. Likely the result of vigorous pumping and firing without thinking, the damage to the hand is catastrophic (my wife is an OT, she said he would be lucky to regain use of his thumb, pointer, and middle fingers).

This is the second discharge that has affected the hand of a KSG shooter, the previous incident the result of a broken ProMag vertical foregrip. The KSG’s bullpup design has significant benefits in terms of balance, length, and usability in a confined space. On the flip side, it also means the hand of the shooter can physically get in front of the muzzle.

To read the full article and see KelTec’s response, head to TheGunWriter’s blog. WARNING, the picture is graphic and likely NSFW. Click here and follow the sub-link for the photo.

Nathan S

One of TFB’s resident Jarheads, Nathan now works within the firearms industry. A consecutive Marine rifle and pistol expert, he enjoys local 3-gun, NFA, gunsmithing, MSR’s, & high-speed gear. Nathan has traveled to over 30 countries working with US DoD & foreign MoDs.

The above post is my opinion and does not reflect the views of any company or organization.


  • SCW

    Will someone give this guy a hand…

    Too soon?

    • Nicholas Chen

      Never soon enough LOL

    • Thach

      It’s his fault he had a hand in his undoing.

    • buzzman1

      In NJ he’d be considered fully disabled because of the injury to his middle finger.

  • Greg

    This is no different than Glock leg.
    User error caused by carelessness.

    • “Glock leg” can happen by no fault of the user. Remember a while back when that lawman had his jacket’s draw-string get in the trigger guard? He turned his body and the gun went off by no fault of his. But I guess he was just a fool for carelessly wearing a jacket in harsh winter weather.

      • Paladin

        Lets see, A proper holster that completely covers the trigger guard, ensuring the trigger guard is clear before and during holstering, keeping drawstrings clear of your firearm…

        Nope, you’re right, absolutely nothing he could have done to prevent it.

        • So it was the fault of the PD for issuing holsters that were not up to snuff and not the user?
          Man, if only there was some kind of device or feature that could be implemented to ensure such things couldn’t happen. I don’t know, like maybe a button or a switch or something? Just spit-balling here.

          • Paladin

            Why not both? If his department made the switch to Glock brand Glocks and didn’t get proper holsters to go with them they made a mistake. If they did not provide proper training on how to safely draw and reholster said Glocks they made another mistake. If the officer failed to account for the risks inherent in his equipment he made a mistake.

            Plenty of people carry Glocks every day and somehow manage to avoid shooting themselves. Heck I’ll bet some of them even manage to do it while wearing a windbreaker, or heaven forbid a full blown jacket. Safety device #1 is always the one between your ears. Adding extra safeties in an attempt to make up for deficiencies with device #1 is foolish.

          • Brad Miller

            @ Paladin

            Exactly the point!

            @Alex C – some people hate Glocks no matter the reason.

          • iksnilol

            I don’t hate Glocks, I just consider them overpriced and unsafe.

          • SirOliverHumperdink

            I added a Cominolli Custom safe- no longer unsafe.. Overpriced? Everything is overpriced. Name something that isn’t, esp in the gun arena. It’s a profitable business that makes it’s money own wants, not needs.

          • iksnilol

            Yes, but I can get a CZ 75 for the same money I would pay for a Glock 17 or 19. You can argue as much as you want but objectively the CZ is way better.

            EDIT: Not saying that the Glock won’t do the job, but it simply is too expensive for what it offers.

          • SirOliverHumperdink

            CZ is nice, but my little g26 can take plentiful factory glock 33 round mags that put a smile on everyone’s face who handled it.

          • iksnilol

            CZs also have high cap mags. They also have a bunch of other things that make them better.

            I don’t really rate guns based on if they put a smile on my face or not. I go for efficency.

          • SirOliverHumperdink

            Efficiency? Do you drive a Prius? Just kidding-

          • Ergo

            elander is going to be shipping a 33 round mag for cz75s and clones in the next few months.

          • iksnilol

            For when more bullets are needed I tried the 26 round mags, haven’t bought any yet. 33 Rounds seems interesting tho I doubt I could use it in competition due to the length. Still would be nice for private use.

          • Grindstone50k

            “You can argue as much as you want but objectively the CZ is way better.”

            I don’t think “objectively” means what you think it means. You mean “subjectively”.

          • iksnilol

            It costs just as much and it performs better for most people (+ it is mechanically more accurate without sacrificing reliability and it can shoot cast bullets). How is that not better.

            I will admit though, Glocks marketing and sales department was genius. That’s the reason so much police in the US use them.

          • Grindstone50k

            It’s more accurate on a bench. With a rest.

            Who says a Glock can’t shoot cast bullets? As long as you clean, there are no problems. Let the led build up, of course you’re going to have a problem. Poor maintenance is not a fault of the gun.

            “Performs better for most people” care to define this claim?

            Glocks are lighter than CZs, making them more suited for carry. The 26 mentioned by Mr. Humperdink is also much, much smaller than your mentioned CZ75, also more suited for carry.

            If you want to hate Glocks, just come out and say it. That’s fine, I hold no brand loyalty. I like both Glocks and CZs. But to claim you’re “objective” when you’ve made it clear you’re not is just silly.

          • iksnilol

            A Glock more accurate than a CZ from a rest? Yeah, I will believe that when I see it.

            Nothing wrong with polygonal barrels but they don’t play well with cast ammo.

            “Performs better for most people” as in your average person finds the grip of a CZ or SIG way more comfortable than the grip of a Glock, thus it is easier to be accurate with.

            Lighter doesn’t equal better. A light gun kicks more.

            I don’t hate Glocks, I just find them overpriced. They are just an expensive Hi-Point with higher capacity mags. I am being objective which is contrary to what you are being.

          • Grindstone50k

            “They are just an expensive Hi-Point with higher capacity mags.”

            Yeah, you have no idea what you’re even talking about. We’re done here.

          • Not to mention the very low cost

          • iksnilol

            You were alive in that era when Glocks took over. Didn’t they have something akin to half off if you turn in your old guns? That’s what I meant by genius.

            I don’t really consider them low-priced but that is because CZs are just as much money (at least in Europe, don’t know the situation in the US).

          • advocatus diaboli

            People buy them for only one reason: because they are cheap and they have trouble evaluating the increased risk of striker-fired pistols for NDs. People are very poor assessors of low risk catastrophic events research is proven time and again but any fool can calculate monetary cost.

          • Nick

            One manual safety isn’t enough; it could be jostled into fire (unsafe) through no fault of the user. Three or perhaps four manual (not passive) safeties could negate this, but disassembling the weapon is really the best way to carry.

          • Grindstone50k

            Because manual safeties never get unintentionally disengaged?

          • Dual sport

            I think the word you are looking for is brain, or would that be a term like personal responsibility?

          • advocatus diaboli

            It was his fault for wearing clothing that could get into his trigger guard. That is negligent. Period.

        • wzrd1

          What is a safety and why is it necessary to prevent perforated legs?

          • Paladin

            A safety is any device intended to prevent the unintentional discharge of a firearm. A manual safety requires the shooter to disengage it before firing. However, a system can only ever be as safe as it’s operator, which is why safe practices are more important than mechanical safeties.

            In the particular case being discussed the officer was using a Glock handgun, which does not have a manual safety (though they do have internal mechanical safeties which prevent it from firing unless the trigger is pressed). When he holstered his handgun a drawstring from his jacket got caught in the trigger guard, turning his body pulled the drawstring tight, which pressed the trigger causing the handgun to discharge a round into his leg. Alex C. contends that a manual safety could have prevented this, since if it were engaged it would have prevented the trigger pull from discharging the gun. I on the other hand contend that proper safety practices, specifically ensuring the trigger guard was clear and using a holster that prevented things from entering the trigger guard would have been sufficient.

      • Brad Miller

        “But I guess he was just a fool for carelessly wearing a jacket in harsh winter weather ” No…. but still user error. Tape or shorten everything that is loose.

        • iksnilol

          Or, crazy suggestion incoming, carry something with a safety.

          • mosinman


          • Brad Miller

            So if it it had been a 1911 it wouldnt have gone of? The safety would probably been deactivated at the moment he removed it from the holster.

          • iksnilol

            Less likely, since the string or whatever it was couldn’t have disengaged the safety and snagged the trigger.

          • Brad Miller

            Read the comment…… my commment states that the safety already would have been disengaged. Therefore the drawstring would have caused the discharge regardless of the pistol used.

            Glocks unsafe? Ok…. to each his own.

          • iksnilol

            Who disengages the safety while the gun is holstered?

          • Brad Miller

            Again.. Read the comment.. are you a bit slow? I stated that the safety would be disengaged during the draw.

            iksnilol – YDMF.

          • iksnilol

            Au contraire, it is you who are slow here. In Alex’s example, the gun fired while it was in the holster because the lawman turned. That is, he wasn’t drawing the gun.

            Even if he was drawing the gun, you don’t disengage the safety while the gun is pointed down. And it is a bit hard to shoot yourself in the leg if the gun is pointed forward.

            I would say something insulting now, since you called me slow and a dumb MF’er, but contrary to you my mother raised me better than that.

          • Brad Miller

            You are the better man.

            However drawstring incident is still user error.

          • Tassiebush

            Yep or don’t have a round chambered

          • Grindstone50k

            Might as well not carry.

          • Tassiebush

            Just meant it in the Israeli carry context. Rack it as you draw it.

          • Grindstone50k

            How fast can you chamber a round as you draw? Would you bet your life on that speed?

          • Tassiebush

            To be honest I am poorly positioned to answer that as we don’t enjoy the right to carry down here. I do lots of hunting and plinking though. Not shooting anything i don’t want to comes first. I’m influenced by a lack of trust in safeties. I am also influenced by the book “Shooting to live” by Fairbairn and Sykes. If you’re familiar with them they trained the Shanghai police during a violent preWW2 period and went on to be primary influences on WW2 commando training. That makes them very experienced but possibly a bit outdated too. They felt the best option was to deactivate the safety and carry the gun empty chambered. Logic was that under stress a person is less able to handle fine motor skills and more able to retain and use gross motor skills like racking the slide.
            But I realize this is an obscure point of view and I realize familiarity with a well designed handgun and practice might change my view on this. Your own experiences or observations or those of anyone else who wants to jump in would probably influence that!

          • Grindstone50k

            Drop-safe was not an industry standard at the time. The firing pin of a 1911 can bounce and set off a primer because it’s just a steel pin held back by a spring. Similarly, many revolvers could fire if dropped on the hammer. Now, drop-safe is a government-mandated industry standard.

            Further, I suggest reading about the Tueller Drill.

          • Tassiebush

            Agreed gun safety standards and tests have certainly improved since that era.
            Yeah the Tueller drill certainly demonstrates the need for speed. I was aware of it or more specifically had been aware of it’s realistic conclusions. As an aside we had a drug dealer and their customer kill each other recently in a knife vs gun fight which sounds an awful lot like a real life vindication of it.
            My understanding is that Fairbain and Sykes were very used to being shot at, stabbed etc and that form of carry was entirely rooted in being quick and effective under great pressure. Another minor aspect of the method too if I recall correctly was the hammer was left cocked to reduce resistance when the slide was racked. They certainly aimed to do it quickly. They were big advocates of point shooting too since a lot of their local fights occured at night time.
            At the end of the day there is a heap of practical experience in various places and times which seems to have developed into different but effective methods. The Israeli’s certainly see their share of fighting right now. American’s do too and the British towards the end of the empire particularly in places like that had a lot of practical experience to draw on. It’d be very interesting to see the ideas on this stuff in other places like Mexico, El Salvadore, South Africa or Brazil where these are probably being tested.

          • Grindstone50k

            Their advice and training is great, for the period. However, technology and tactics have changed. Striker-fired pistols and night sights would probably give them a whole paradigm shift.
            How military and law enforcement carry more often than not has no bearing on how your everyday joe would need to carry, especially for CCW. Israeli forces consists of a LOT of conscripts, so there is a very low common denominator. In fact, the zealous pursuit of safety was a strong factor in the selection of the Beretta M9. Slide-mounted safety and DA trigger combo, or at least that’s what I was told the many times I did my M9 quals. Empty chamber carry was/is common in the US military as well, mainly for security forces and so-called “POGs”.

            Bottom line is; follow the Four Laws at ALL times, train with your weapon, maintain your weapon, use the right accessories. Every ‘accident’/NEGLIGENT discharge is avoidable.

          • Tassiebush

            A lot of good points. In their context, they were operating a multinational, multi ethnic, multi language police force. That sounds exactly like the Israeli situation. Israeli ideas on this may well have been influenced by British doctrine too. Someone on this forum made the point once that Israel had a lot of different automatic pistols in use too so again it’d be a one size fits all approach.
            Totally agree with that bottom line.

          • Swarf

            It’s been proven time and again that in real world scenarios, the time it takes to rack the slide may cost you- at the very least- tactical advantage (and since you are playing defense, you are already at a disadvantage) and possibly your life.

            When milliseconds count, the chamber is miles away.

          • Tassiebush

            Yeah i can see how chambered is ultimately going to be faster. Grindstone’s points (and the researching they inspired) make me appreciate more that contemporary designs can be quite safe to carry chambered. It becomes a choice between safe vs very safe and very fast vs fast.
            My experience with hunting firearms doesn’t correlate much with guns designed for everyday carry.

        • Swarf

          Good advice, Sargent Elias. I’m sure we’ll all be spending our weekend blanking our wardrobes now.

      • John Shore

        I don’t think that one can say with any honesty that ‘Glock Leg’ happens without any fault by the user. In the case of the drawstring incident as example, said lawman was careless, just careless enough to shoot himself. Careless people allow objects such as fingers and holster straps and jacket drawstrings to enter the trigger guard. If said object is allowed to depress the trigger with enough energy to fire the gun, what happens after that is merely the gun operating as designed, and is wholly the fault of the operator, no matter how ‘inadvertent’ the act may be.

      • Core

        No, his first mistake was the Glock..

        • NeoBlackdog

          That’s funny. After years and years of shooting iDPA matches the only ND I’ve seen while re-holstering was a guy with a beautiful Kimber 1911. Put a crease down his right leg and a brown stripe in the seat of his pants.

          • wzrd1

            That’s why they make a safety, to prevent creased legs and soiled underwear.

          • advocatus diaboli

            Yeah because the only stats that matter are your personal experience right? ever been bitten by a shark? No? ever been stuck by lightning? Then that never happens! Q.E.D.

        • BR549


          Also, if a LEO thinks he has to have his gun that much more at the ready, that if he can’t remember to flip off his safety or rack his weapon while under stress, ……. what other mindless decisions is this person going to make while under stress and in possession of a firearm?

          • Blaser270

            There is NO safety to flip off on a Glock. That’s why you have so many ADs. Yet the Glock owners who haven’t shot themselves swear it’s always operator error. As Core said, yes it is, they got a Glock. Big error.

          • BR549

            I know there’s no safety; that’s why I suggested they were choosing them in the first place.

            MY point was that, if these clowns had guns with safeties and they couldn’t remember what the drill was to make them operable under pressure, perhaps these individuals shouldn’t be trusted with firearms AT ALL.

          • advocatus diaboli

            Get a Sig. Problem solved. DA with one in the chamber. Microsecond slower meaning next to nothing in the real world. People buy Glocks because they are cheap but elevate their risk in because of their cheapness without fully calculating the potential impact on their safety and that of others.

          • BR549

            I think, somehow, Glocks also became “tactically chic”, like the fingerless leather gloves, the pegged uniforms, the wraparounds, and ESPECIALLY the shaved heads.

            There’s this mentality that seems to run among half the force that all these accoutrements will somehow help convince the cowering sheeple that these clowns are efficient killing machines instead of the large dysfunctional children that they are.

            Like the few truly professional doctors or auto mechanics that really stand out, should anyone have the occasion to encounter one, you’ll know when you run across a good one …… and also recognize an ass-hat whose emotional immaturity trips his switch because he didn’t get laid the night before or because some family member of his happened to challenge his authority over some petty issue at home.

            They are a slice out of society, itself, and society is having some MAJOR personal integrity issues. As for the Glock, it only adds to that illusion of a mindless, government trained , two -legged Dobermann-Pinscher pointing a gun with a hair trigger.

            As for the guns, they were cheap, as you stated, but also because of the buyback program

            According to Bloomberg feature writer, Paul Barrett, “One early advantage for police departments, says Barrett, was that Glock gave them large discounts when purchasing the gun for their departments.”

            Judging from Barrett’s article, it’s not a far stretch to conclude that the Glock’s popularity was more about crafty salesmanship and clever advertising. Personally, I’m sticking with the Beretta and Taurus 92 series.

          • Blaser270

            Oh btw as a retired officer of 35 years I can attest that LEOs do keep a round in the pipe. It’s not a matter of stress, etc., as it is a matter of when the stuff hits the fan and you’re in hand to hand combat with someone you may not have that extra hand to chamber that round. Or it might have been wounded to the point that it’s useless. Learn a little about the business before making such stupid statements. Paper targets give you plenty of time to load, etc. Criminals don’t.

        • supergun

          Thats good. Get an XDs

      • patrickiv

        Not sure what kind of holster he had but a firearm shouldn’t be pointed at the user while holstered. What’s the number one rule of firearm safety?

        • Grindstone50k

          Skip leg day when carrying a Glock?

          • Swarf

            Never has to worry about Glock leg:

      • Grindstone50k

        The holster didn’t have a trigger cover? Or he didn’t pay attention when holstering?

      • advocatus diaboli

        I disagree, he should not be wearing clothing that can interfere with the trigger and result in an ND. Operator negligence in clothing selection. If you wearing long trousers with an exposed bicycle chain and nothing to secure them you are telling me that isn’t negligence? It is. Same thing there.

  • jeff k

    its called a negligent discharge. nothing new

  • Riot

    People burn themselves with obrezs, shoot their fingers off with pistols and blow their hands off with shortened shotguns a fair bit.

    I wonder if the pump forward of the NS2000 this ripped off would be better for this sort of thing.

    • Drew

      The pump forward motion puts more hand motion towards the barrel, not to mention the NS2000 had the barrel below the mag tubes, even closer to the hand than the KSG

      • Dave

        Except for the fact that the NS2000 can’t fire until you return the pump all the way rearward, thus ensuring the impossibility of firing a show into your hand during pumping.

        Please do some actual research before opening your mouth next time.

      • Riot

        It can’t fire while forward

      • David Sharpe

        The NS2000 had a forward back pump……..

  • M.M.D.C.

    Before we all jump on the thisdudeissuchamoron bandwagon let’s remember that shooting accidents (like any other accident) happen to careful, seasoned shooters and careless noobs alike.

    Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.

    • Nicholas Chen

      Actually it doesn’t. And they are never “accidents”. Accidents means no one is to blame. And there is ALWAYS someone to blame. Negligent discharges are just that, negligent. Someone was complacent and NOT careful at all. Just like car “accidents” only happen because someone was complacent with their driving. In this case the shooter is the one to blame for being a moron.

      • Fred

        Actually “accident” just means an unplanned event or circumstance. I think when most people use the word they are not implying that there is no fault or root cause.

        Perhaps what MMDC is saying is that we all(experienced and
        inexperienced) need to be careful not to become complacent

        • M.M.D.C.

          That’s exactly what I’m saying. The whole accident/negligent distinction is academic. The point is that no one is perfectly disciplined, no one is perfectly vigilant. Labeling these people as careless creates a false sense of security.

          In other words, let’s not kid ourselves, this could very well happen to any of us.

          • John Shore

            We can all agree that no one is perfect; That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t strive to BE ‘perfect’ when it comes to firearms. One of our tools to that end is making the distinction between ‘accident’ and ‘negligence.’ ‘Accident’ implies, as Fred says, no fault: ‘Things Happen.’ ‘Negligence’ implies a proximate negligent act by a human that caused a firearm to operate as designed but not as intended, or to operate outside of its design parameters.
            We do need to understand the WHY of a firearms disaster to determine how to prevent the same thing from happening to someone else.

          • M.M.D.C.

            ” ‘Negligence’ implies a proximate negligent act by a human that caused a firearm to operate as designed but not as intended, or to operate outside of its design parameters.”

            This is what I meant by academic. We can argue all day long about difference between accidental and negligent, but It’s just navel gazing.

            It’s better, in my opinion, to keep it simple. We can just re-visit the four rules and apply the first one (don’t point it at what you don’t want to destroy), to the KSG (it’s easier with this one/get a GOOD grip on that thing!) and move on.

          • advocatus diaboli

            You are a bit skewed on this: if a BCG has early metal fatigue outside of 6 sigmas or a brass case fails on the first reload at well-within normal loading and pressures with no physical signs or distress: those is nearly a pure accidents based on long tail “flukes”. And they are far from negligence. If a human elevates risk through a decision, whether it is a mis- and fairly-calculated risk, it is negligence. Just because they escape the consequences of the assumed risk doesn’t mean it wasn’t negligent. If you DUI but don’t get in an “accident”, you were still negligent. Sometimes people get away with it but if they end up on the downside of the risk, it is not an accident: their risk calculus was off on probability and maybe the weight of the consequences. Not the same thing as an accident at all.

          • Grindstone50k

            Thats why you make a habit of following the four rules. They were designed SPECIFICALLY for the complacent situations that lead to NDs. Breaking one rule typically doesn’t result in a problem as long as the other three are still adhered to.

      • Grindstone50k

        Four rules are four rules. This is why one of the rules is “keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction”. Your hand not being one of those directions.

      • Tassiebush

        Words like moron, negligent discharge and accident bring back painfull memories of a zipper related injury!

      • nadnerbus

        Everyone feels this way until it is them that screws up. Just like everyone thinks they are a very safe driver until the one time they get bit for doing something stupid.

        Not to say the four rules aren’t effective, they of course are. But everyone, including you is human. We will all err. Just assuming anyone that makes a catastrophic mistake with a firearm is moron is as much a psychological trick to make ourselves feel better, that it can’t happen to us, as it is a criticism.

        I say, instead of ripping the guy, who is already in enough pain, we all take a deep breath, and renew our own respect for safety and the weapons we use, lest we be the next “moron” who made a mistake.

    • Couldn’t have said it better myself!

  • Andrew

    Like all firearms, use with caution. Slow down.

    • Andrew

      Also, lets remember that this person has probably lost the use of his hand, obviously a big deal, and we should keep him and his family in our prayers.

  • Isaac Newton

    Just throwing this out there: since the KSG has the pumping action and short length it makes this more likely to happen, maybe a solution would be a safety button on the pump so that it won’t fire unless you have both hands on the gun.

    • Nicholas Chen

      Terrible idea. what if I want to shoot my KSG one handed? People need to just stop doing stupid things with guns. Dont cater to morons. If they cant use a firearm safely, that is their fault.

      • Isaac Newton

        Most people don’t shoot 12 ga pumps one handed

        • David Sharpe

          They would if they injured their other hand.

          More and more safeties will do more harm than good.

        • Grindstone50k

          You didn’t see the video of the one-armed vet yesterday.

      • ryguyjustwithatry

        Lol although stupid it would be cool for YouTube. There is a reason why you can’t handle a ksg one handed, one to pump and one to shoot. Use it correctly or they may be consequences

      • mosinman

        accidents can happen to anyone……

  • Pseudo

    Oof. I remember the first one and the guy trying to sue and I was like “you put plastic garbage on your gun and got burned.” Seeing the image makes me a bit more sympathetic with the user even if was still user error.

  • Pete Sheppard

    That was tragic, but I have a friend who blew his own leg off with a ‘conventional’ shotgun…NEVER take safety for granted!

    • I knew a former LGS owner that kaboomed the same rifle with the same hot-load twice. He needed surgery to remove the shrapnel from the second kaboom.

  • Adam James Pugh

    Poor bugger – that’s an horrific injury. Looks like he was perhaps over exuberant whilst working the action, slipped on the forwards stroke whilst simultaneously pulling the trigger. There’s nothing inherently dangerous in the KSG design other than the risk posed by all short barrelled pump-action shotguns when the hand working the action slips. I understand that KSG even include a hand stop in the box to help mitigate this risk. I wish this guy a full and speedy recovery. I hope he regains full use of his hand in time.

  • JQPub

    …and so a new term is born: KSG Hand

    • dan citizen

      Or KSG stump?

      “In further news, KelTec has introduced a new line of stylish prosthetic hands for loyal customers”

  • Might be mistaken, but don’t KSGs have plastic rails for VFGs and handstops? No way I’d shoot one without a metal rail and two barriers between my hand and the barrel.

  • JumpIf NotZero

    [KAG has] significant benefits in terms of [usability]

    Lol, no.

  • M.M.D.C.

    Problem solved:

    • … unless you want to shoot buckshot without a shot cup (which is usually better stacking and patterning).

  • John Yossarian

    1. ND’s happen: I had one myself. Research afterward – combining three Internet forum polls – shows that it has happened to 1 in 3 respondents.

    2. Even though the VFG broke on the first KSG incident, for the shooter’s hand to have continued forward into the path of the muzzle he must have been on the out-stroke. How he managed to shoot his hand after completing the in-stroke and pressing the trigger is beyond me. Something smells fishy in that story…

    • Chase Buchanan

      Respondents will not be representative of the general population of shooters, but it’s still interesting. Scientific research of NDs could illuminate how they occur and how best to avoid them. Unfortunately, scientific research of gun-related things is very difficult because it attracts ideologically motivated people who openly declare their intention to produce results that can be used to support taking guns away from people.

      • Grindstone50k

        Respondents may also not be entirely truthful.

        • Chase Buchanan

          Do you think there would be more false claims of having NDed, or more false claims of having not ever NDed?

          • Grindstone50k

            I’m saying that self-reports are never reliable. The cause of the event, the results. Not to mention the validity of the event in the first place. Then there’s those who do not self-report NDs. It just an unreliable method to collect data.

    • whskee

      Just thinking through how this could happen. If he was firing fast, and used a little too much force running the slide forward and slipped his hand in front of the barrel, the weapon is no longer supported forward in that moment. I’m thinking he did this, the weapon dipped, and maybe he had a sympathetic squeeze on his firing hand from the balance change, from the ‘Oh No!’, or both. He was likely anticipating to fire anyway, so the slip probably wasn’t even registering as quickly as his intention to fire. F’ing OUCH.

  • Zebra Dun

    Good side? My Browning Auto Five Light Twelve has a 28 inch barrel and is all of 48 inches long.
    What this needs is a hand guard attached to the forward grip/pump handle like an old sword hilt.
    Possibly a canted grip that has a swell to help hold on.
    OR, A Bayonet so you know not to place your hand near the edge of the blade.
    The Bad side?
    It takes a twelve foot diameter circle to aim and shoot that old Browning A-5.

  • I gotta say I am not all that comfortable with a bullpup pump-action weapon like this. Short barreled firearms have existed for a long time, and present unique challenges to handling them safely (this is why compact PDWs often have hand stops, and why I don’t begin training new shooters with pistols).

    Adding a back-forward pump-action where the gun is locked and ready to fire when the hand is in the forward position turns “safety challenges” into something approaching a recipe for disaster. The lack of an integral hand stop makes me feel even less comfortable about it. It’s not something I feel all that litigious about, but then I might feel differently if I were missing a part of my hand because it slid in front of the muzzle.

    I feel similarly about the .300 Blackout round. I think it’s a really cool concept, but I don’t like how easy it is for uncannelured, uncrimped bullets to chamber in a 5.56/.223 chamber (which is common in externally similar platform that feed from the exact same magazines).

    As the number of injuries and kabooms increase, the less comfortable I am going to feel with either.

    • Commenter

      You bring up a point about the KSG that I’ve felt from the beginning – it’s too much of a ‘good’ thing, it’s too short.

      All bull pups are compact by design, and allow an extremely short overall weapon length, based on current federal barrel length law. However, the bull pup design doesn’t REQUIRE extreme short weapon length. In fact, the design actually allows more barrel in a shorter package.

      Think about it – the reason why we even have 18.5″ barrels on shotguns in the first place is that, until the bull pup version was perfected, a barrel that short was considered optimal if you wanted a room clearing version of just about any long gun. Yet a bull pup shotgun (or rifle) with a, say, 22″ barrel will give you a weapon with just as much maneuverability as any standard long gun with an 18″ barrel, but with the likelihood of what happened to this poor bastard virtually eliminated.

      Four extra inches from where the pump action ended and the barrel began could have – and I believe would have – made all the difference in the world, for I guess the 3rd person now.

      This is what ‘tacti-cool’ has wrought. I mean, Kel-Tec did the smart marketing thing, by riding the wave of what the public apparently wants (or at least what has been jammed down our throats as what we want) & making the KSG as short and tactical as possible. But had this gun been brought out before 9/11, I’ll bet dollars to donuts it would have been marketed not as a tactical shotgun, but as a utility shotgun with a barrel length that could do more than just blow locks off doors and sweep rooms. Frankly, a 22″ or 24″barrel on a 12-14 round bull pup platform could not only hold off the zombie hoards, but also hunt deer, turkey, and in a pinch probably a pheasant or two, AS WELL AS defend the home. The present KSG would have a hard time with all but the last.

      What I’d really love right now is a new buzz-word. If one could be forced on the public why not another?

      How about … ‘Practi-Cool’?

      • Fruitbat44

        I always thought that 18.5″ being the magic number for shotgun barrels in the USA was legislation rather than practicality.

    • John

      Kel-Tec would be doing themselves a giant favor by designing the Gen. 2 KSG with a large and functional hand stop. Call it tactical, call it whatever, just mold it onto the handle. If people don’t like it they have to actively remove it, and it frees Kel-Tec from a lot of liability.

      • And offering replacement handguards for free…

        • AJ187

          I bought a KSG fairly recently and thought only to put a weapons mounted light on the front of it to act as a hand stop. First 11 rounds of 3 inch magnum ripped off half of the front picatinny rail that it was sitting on. I noticed the flashlight leaning off to side before firing again. Likely, I slammed my hand into the flashlight during recoiling forces. Probably, a decent vert grip would of kept my hand from slamming against the flashlight.

          Anyway, decided to add some safety items, Hi-Tech Customs makes an extended aluminum rail that locks into four picatinny rails (including the half broken front tooth). Keeps your hand a little lower on the grip and the extended rail keeps it away from the muzzle. Also remounted the flashlight for a hand stop and used a magpul vert grip. Finally, went through the trouble of removing the barrel nut and putting a Double Star Enforcer Muzzle Brake.

          I feel there are plenty that shoot these just fine stock (like I really wanted to), but I just wanted to have some peace of mind while enhancing some qualities of the weapon. I have a few SBR’s and plenty of short length shotguns, but this is the most dangerous of them all. It, like the glock, is not for the absent minded, new shooter that wants the coolest thing on the block and ends up putting an extra hole in themselves. Sometimes I feel these stories gravitate towards them, but I bet a lot of complacent old shooters are at fault to. Anyway, love the gun, just wanted others to stay safe out there!

          • One shouldn’t be firing 3 inch rounds from a shotgun with a pistol grip. A number of pistol grip shotgunners have found their hands broken that way.

  • HM

    Why would someone even attempt to shoot this thing without a hand-stop/fore-grip? A very painful and unnecessary lesson was learned.

  • Weaponized_Hotdog

    I’ve had some pretty significant injuries from ” vigorous pumping and firing without thinking.”

  • Nick

    With the rail handstop this would have to be difficult. I’ve felt the blast on my off hand from some buckshot that had powder still burning when it exited, but I was nowhere near close enough to the muzzle to lose a digit. Add a choke tube adapter and this ought to be damn near impossible to do on accident.

  • Archie Montgomery

    I’m sorry about the damage done to the shooter. I’ll be praying for him.

    That said, ‘short barreled’ firearms do carry the risk of getting a hand, leg or other body part in front of the muzzle. Handguns are rather well known for this problem.

    The only real solution is mental awareness. Even with all firearms having not less than thirty-six inch barrel(s), one can rest the muzzle on one’s foot and thereby expose one’s self to injury.

    No mechanism can make up for having brain turned off.

  • luckydog

    People like that should just take selfies with it

  • wzrd1

    The photos on the site now show his healed hand. He lost his index finger, third finger and retained his ring finger and small finger.
    He’ll be lucky to retain usage of the ring finger and thumb.

  • Jamie Clemons


  • supergun

    They are nice shot guns with a Kick like a mule. I like me Mossbery 930 SPX.

  • buzzman1

    Have to wonder if the guy was using a cheap airsoft vertical grip. Kel Tec should just break down and offer its own vertical grip with a blast shield like were available for the MP-5Ks.