BATFE Phone Call Asking For Return of Approved Trust Form 1

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The BATFE now want to get the documents they approved back. They seem confused if Trusts are persons or not persons. Its all quite hilarious. They are definitely always persons, but … also not always.

Thanks to Jaqufrost for going through this BATFE process for the benefit (and entertainment) of all of us, and orpheus762x51 for sharing the saga on ARFCOM.



Steve Johnson

Founder and Dictator-In-Chief of TFB. A passionate gun owner, a shooting enthusiast and totally tacti-uncool. Favorite first date location: any gun range. Steve can be contacted here.


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  • Jeff Smith

    ATF – “We need that returned back to us.”

    Me – “Yeeeeaaa…….It’s in the mail….”

    • Anonymous

      So I suppose he shot it back to them? YEEEAAAAHHHH

  • USMC03Vet

    We don’t know what is going on. We just work here.

    – ATF

  • LLC

    I’m entertained.

    I can’t afford to shoot a full-auto weapon, but this is hilarious.

  • gunslinger

    trusts are not persons, except when they are persons?

    all animals are free, but some are more free than others?

  • echelon

    Dang you TFB…posting so…many…ATF articles…hard to keep…politics…out of the discussion…

    This is all so stupid I just want to cry. We literally live in fictionville. The ATF and everyone else is just making it up as they go.

    • Some days it is hard. In the ATF cases were talking laws not politics.

      • echelon

        Yes, but I think you can see the slippery slope that is. “Laws” are many times politically motivated. Nothing that the ATF considers “illegal” is really that in truth.

        And that leads to why the ATF exists in the first place, who benefits from having them exist, why they get to basically rule ex cathedra on all things guns with little to no oversight or regulation from Congress, etc. etc.

        Not hard to get into politics from there… 😉

  • guest

    Yeah! ‘Mericuh! Right to bear and keep arms! Se’nd ‘mendment! YEAAWW

    • Robert Thorne

      You are a supreme gentleman of the highest order and a true credit to your people. Also pls go.

      • guest

        That’s a pathetic comeback to an ironic joke that obviously went into your right ear and went out the left without you understanding it.
        A lot of “american pride” is based on various freedoms which people in USA supposedly have, and as evident trough the years many of them have eroded to a new low, while the people have been “taking it” for years on end and without much protest.
        And as far as “my people” go, my people let me buy a suppressor without any form, registration, or ATF mandated cavity search. And I am supposedly in a “strict” country. So that’s my 2 cents.

        • Matt

          “Without much protest” Really? Apparently you are new to the internet thing. Check out google- there are lots of people protesting our loss of freedoms.

          Unfortunately we have to work with a court system that is rights hostile and government friendly most of the time. But we fight anyway.

          You may be able to get a suppressor faster and cheaper there, but I bet we have many more RKBA rights.

        • Robert Thorne

          Europeans see suppressors as they should. Safety devices. Our politicians seem to believe Hollywood that they make gun shots silent. Pew pew pew. Beyond that what do you have to do to get the gun for that suppressor in your country? Cuz having suppressors without guns is a little pants on head.

  • Tom

    Tell them you’ll send it back within the same time frame it took them to approve it and send it to you in the first place. So, late 2015. Maybe. And no they can’t ever check to bug you and ask for a status.

  • WhiteRabbit

    Have you ever heard of an “anti-racist” organization targeting anyone other than white people for “racism?”
    Have you ever heard of an “anti-racist” organization protecting white people from racism.
    Have you ever heard of an “anti-racist” organization saying something was “too black, “too asian,” “too arab,” and demanded more “Diversity?”
    “Diversity” means chasing down the last white person.
    It’s genocide.
    “Anti-racist” is a codeword for anti-white.

    • Brett

      Where the fuck is this coming from?

      • An Interested Person

        A white rabbit. He must be racist.

    • TFB Reader

      Not to violate anyone’s First amendment rights, but I suggest that Steve take a look at this post.

      • gunslinger

        remember, 1st amendment rights are for government limiting speech. it makes no safety net for private forums.

      • He wrote this post—

  • nova3930

    I wonder what if any statutory authority exists for revoking an issued tax stamp. Knowing BATFE I’d almost bet $ there is none…

    • If the stamp was issued in error, it is invalid. Whether or not you send it back in.

      Of course, if it was issued in error, you are entitled to a full refund of your $200 tax. . . but they can require you to return the stamp, first.

  • Tahoe

    Good point nova, and a scary one – what if “recalling” tax stamps becomes commonplace? I know I’d think twice about paying a bunch of money for an NFA item, including stamp, if I knew the ATF might suddenly decide to demand it back. I doubt I’d get a refund.

  • R.E. Naess

    A trust is not eligible to hold an FFL, nor is it regarded as a “person” as is a corporation. For a trust to “make” an MG using a Form 1, which is an individual “making” form, the trust must be a person, but it is not, so it cannot legally “make” an MG registered for private possession. Nothing new here, as this has been policy for many years, so ATF just screwed up. Also, nothing new. Many times ATF has approved of a specific activity or variance, only to rescind it some months later, in some cases after several hundred thousands of dollars have been spent by a gun designer who then has no legal product to sell. Nothing new here either.

    Bob Naesse

    • Mystick

      It seems like when an agency wants to take money in the form of taxes, forms, or penalties, any entity is a “person”, yet when granting licenses, permits, and the like, only select entities are considered to be “real”.

  • 1911a145acp

    All this is funny and thought provoking, but pointless. The 86 amendment was added by a questionable voice vote. The 86 law is completely UNCONSTITUTIONAL on it’s face. It could never withstand a real review by the Supreme court. It’s want the Gov’t wants so it will likely NEVER get to SCOTUS. Congress infringes upon a specifically protected right of citizens- yet preserves and perpetuates that right for LE, Government agencies and Military. Individuals can’t have it- only non individuals and entities can. OK, so, I create the non individual entity that the Gov’t recognizes for EVERYTHING else and then they say no, sorry not that which we previously said was OK. They just make it up as they go.They create law and re interpret existing law for which they have no authority to do EITHER. The definition of a government out of control.