Remington & Colt Threaten to Relocate Factories Over Microstamping

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Remington and Colt are threatening to relocate their factories if New York and Connecticut pass legislation requiring microstamping on semiautomatic handguns. Fox News reports

“Mandatory microstamping would have an immediate impact of a loss of 50 jobs,” New York State Sen. James Seward, a Republican whose district includes Ilion, said, adding that Remington employs 1,100 workers in the town. “You’re talking about a company that has options in other states. Why should they be in a state that’s hostile to legal gun manufacturing? There could be serious negative economic impact with the passage of microstamping and other gun-control laws.”

Fired cartridge from microstamped gun. Photo from The Coalition to Stop Gun Violence via. Joe Huffman

New York Assemblywoman Michelle Schimel, a Democrat and the chief sponsor of the microstamping legislation on semiautomatic pistols that was last considered by the state’s full Senate in 2010, said she believes Remington’s vow is merely a threat.

“Their main product isn’t even semiautomatic guns; the main thrust of what they do are long guns and military contracts,” Schimel told FoxNews.com. “As a former businessman, it would be foolish for them to leave the New York market. They are getting a lot of money from the state.”

Implementation of microstamping technology would cost roughly $12 per gun and would go a long way to helping solve crimes, she said.

A cost of $12 per firearm is not inconsiderable. The other cost will be from decrease demand from consumers. Many consumers worry that brass cartridges with serial numbers will be collected by criminals at gun ranges and left at crime scenes. Any criminal with half a brain will use sandpaper to remove the microstamp from their firearms.

Last year Colt announced plans to open a new facility in Florida and earlier this year Remington announced the purchase of North Carolina based Para USA.

You can read more about microstamping at Joe Huffman’s blog.

[ Many thanks to jdun1911 for emailing me the link. ]

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Steve Johnson

Founder and Dictator-In-Chief of TFB. A passionate gun owner, a shooting enthusiast and totally tacti-uncool. Favorite first date location: any gun range. Steve can be contacted here.


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  • Tony

    Whoever came up with this idea should be stamped on his a**!

  • TangledThorns

    They should just leave those states, period.

    • Jeff

      IMO a better article on the matter:
      http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/24/nyregion/calls-for-stricter-gun-laws-worry-ilion-ny-built-by-remington.html?pagewanted=all

      Also, while Remington may get a lot of money from being in the state,
      1) The state also gets a lot of money from Remington being there, and would have to deal with a town being in an economic crisis/losing long term sources of revenue from not only Remington, but also Kimber which are both not happy with the microstamping

      2) The cost of relocating is not the issue. its about sending a message. The firearm industry is one which relies heavily on image, what they stand behind, and whether they support their customers. Ruger got a bad rep that hasn’t been forgotten after Bill Ruger’s statmenent (No law abiding citizen needs a pistol that holds more than 10 rounds…. or something to that effect)
      Heck, Silencerco pulled their ads from RECOIL after the MP7 fiasco because it didnt reflect their, or their customers’ beliefs. If Remington wants to send the message that they will not stand behind microstamping, they will

    • Jeff

      Whoops, sorry, didn’t mean to reply under your comment

  • Rusty Carr

    Oklahoma will let them set up shop here, without all the bull crap to boot.

  • darrel

    Wait, so the firing pin has a little microscopic stamp on it that leaves a mark on the primer? I could be wrong, but wouldn’t that just be worn out to point that it was unrecognizable? Plus, like the article says, anyone who would be committing crimes would be smart enough to sand it off, or get another firing pin.

    Seems stupid, like 90% of other gun laws.

    • DP

      The part that scares me the most is that criminals might grab used brass from a range. No matter how much I try to grab all that I fire, there are always empty cases that I miss. Criminal goes to range, grabs all the 9mm cases he can find, and then seeds a crime scene with them. Not only do the police have to check the stamps for all found casings, they then come to visit me and confiscate my firearm.

      This is just as bad as ballistics databases. They are nothing more than a waste of money. See what happened in MD as an example of how well these ideas pan out…

    • Nicks87

      All gun control laws are pointless and unconstitutional. The laws are made to keeps guns out of the hands of criminals but what do criminals do?

      THEY BREAK THE LAW!!!

      These ninnys that think gun laws are going to protect them from violent crime are delusional. When violent crime occurs they call out for the govt to step in and create some law that just limits the freedoms of law abiding citizens. What happens if the govt keeps making laws? How soon will America be like the old Soviet Union or North Korea? If we dont put a stop to all this insanity, pretty soon we all will be living in a police state and no one will have any rights.

      “But we will all be safe right?”

      Lol yeah right. No amount of laws or regulations can take the risk out of life. We need to keep these weak people from getting into positions where they get to call the shots and pass these nonsense laws.

      • Bryan S.

        One of these days they will make murder and robbery illegal. Until then, we need to punish the law abiding.

    • Phil White

      It’s not about deterring crime it’s about making it prohibitively expense to purchase ammo and guns. Of course they want to bankrupt smaller guns makers.

      • Nadnerbus

        We have been living it in California for years. That is absolutely what it is about. Creeping incrimentalism, seeing what they can get away with to make gun ownership more and more of a hassle, so it becomes more and more marginalized to the point where an actual ban becomes politically viable. It has nothing to do with preventing or deterring crime and everything to do with preventing and deterring lawful gun ownership.

        And the god Representative could care less about the gun manufacturers leaving. It makes her cause that much easier.

    • D

      Not to mention the millions of pre-stamping guns, that have no stamps at all.

      This is, literally, the worst kind of legislation: it not only doesn’t provide a benefit, it’s not only illogical, it’s also detrimental to both people and companies.

    • Kurt

      Only 90%?

  • Trev

    Last time I checked Remington made a lot of semiautomatic weapons for civies, including the 3 new 1911 models.

  • http://pc3c.org/ Gregory Markle

    While I understand the nostalgia of remaining where they are, I find the fact that they literally are generating taxes revenue to be used to create legislation to reduce the scope of their market and increase their expenses insane. They should follow Barratt’s lead to some degree: relocate to a 2A friendly state and then cut off all sales and services to LE and government sources within unfriendly states. The .gov needs to understand that civilians control the development, manufacture, and sales of small arms, not them!

    • Nicks87

      Excellent post, I agree 100%.

      All gun manufacturers should do this to send a message to our criminal Govts. These politicians need to realize that we are not just going to sit back and let a small minority of left-wing “nanny state” control freaks limit or take away our constitutional freedoms.

    • W

      “relocate to a 2A friendly state and then cut off all sales and services to LE and government sources within unfriendly states. The .gov needs to understand that civilians control the development, manufacture, and sales of small arms, not them!”

      youre goddamned right. I couldnt agree more. Im not obligating anybody to do anything, but it is ultimately about making the harder right than the easier wrong.

      I think organizations that receive arms and training in the service of a state or city that violates the constitution should be cut off and drained. Barrett made the right decision.

  • Lance

    There making bigger plants for military contracts too. There fighter over a very large M-4A1 contract for the Army which Remington won and Colt got a new solicitation after a court battle. They want larger facilities to make said weapons.

    http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2012/10/01/m4-contract-protest-update-the-army-is-going-to-solicit-new-bids/

  • Chucktshoes

    Statitsts gonna state.

  • nate

    this seems mighty close to politics

    • Phil White

      Perhaps close but it directly effects firearms cost as well as ammunition cost. This also has a relevance to availability for some time if the factories do move to a gun friendly state.

      • Cymond

        “it directly effects firearms cost as well as ammunition cost”

        So do anti-gun laws and anti-gun legislators. They’re still political.

  • http://www.nitroexpress.com Mehul Kamdar

    Let the gunmakers show that they have a spine – relocate BEFORE these laws are passed. While Connecticut might not have to worry about too much, New York can ill afford to lose jobs. Hit the state in its checkbook and show other states that might be contemplating similar measures what they can expect as well. If Remington and Colt stay where they are, they deserve every kick in their collective nuts that they get from political clowns like Michelle Schimel. Even if the present microstamping plan is killed, it will be temporary. Move out of these states permanently and every politician there will remember what might happen the next time he or she tries to concoct similar legal rubbish.

    • klip

      To be honest, I’d rather these companies stay there and fight. If the laws pass then yes, move and punish the state, but until that happens, such large companies as Remington and Colt can have considerable political sway. I say this as a Californian where my state has been awash in ridiculous (refer to assault weapon laws) firearm bans and rules and regulations – people need to stay and fight because reversing the situation is far more difficult.

    • Máté

      While I mostly agree, wouldn’t moving require people, who work there to move as well, or find an other job?

      • MannyF

        Those people can and should beat down the door of the politicians in their state that drove their employer away.

  • jay1975

    Doesn’t the micro stamp leave the number on the primer? If so, then no worry about criminals collecting brass at a range. Besides, how many gang bangers reload their own ammo? That being said; how many gang bangers buy their guns so the micro stamps could even be tracked to any individual in the first place? This is just more liberal, feel good, policies that do nothing to deter crime or actually punish criminals.

    • D

      The danger’s more that they’d toss the rounds on the ground at the scene, and cause the cops to go chasing after someone innocent instead of the actual criminal.

      • jay1975

        So, do the down votes actually think criminals are going to go to firing ranges in NY, waiting for people shooting Remington 1991′s, just to collect the brass to drop at a crime scene? And the same for CT criminals and Colt’s brass. How ridiculous.

    • schizuki

      “Doesn’t the micro stamp leave the number on the primer? If so, then no worry about criminals collecting brass at a range.”

      I don’t know what kind of ammo you use, but on mine, the fired primer stays attached to the brass.

      • Cymond

        Jay is assuming that the criminals are going to collect spent brass and reload it. That would mean punching out the microstamped brass and replacing it with fresh primers.

        Jay, people are concerned that smart criminals will simply drop used brass at a crime scene.

        Imagine this: Criminal goes to shooting range, picks up 6 random cases of 9mm brass. Criminal shoots someone 6 times with a 9mm revolver (such as a Ruger Blackhawk convertible or Charter rimless model). Criminal drops 6 brass casings from shooting range. Police interogate 6 law-abiding gun owners.

        Or this: Criminal goes to shooting range, picks up 50 random cases of 9mm. Criminal shoots someone 1 time with any non-stamped 9mm. Criminal scatters 50 cases from range. Police are lead astray by 51 cases found at crime scene.

  • http://jackbootedliberal.com Joshua

    Saying that criminals will just sand off the stamp is overly simplistic, I think. It presumes that the criminal you’re talking about is a career criminal who thinks ahead rationally. I submit that most criminals are not thinking entirely rationally. Additionally, I submit that most criminals don’t plan their crimes ahead to the degree that would be necessary to sand off the stamp in a firearm. Hell–the average gun-owning citizen still can’t tell the difference between a magazine and a clip. What makes you think they’ll even know what micro-stamping is?

    It’s the same as saying that gun control wouldn’t stop gun crime because criminals already get their guns illegally. That presumes that there is a bright line between criminals and non-criminals. There isn’t. The first time somebody commits a violent crime with a gun, they weren’t a criminal until after they did it. And many violent gun crimes are not premeditated. So limiting citizens’ legal access to guns will stop some violent gun crimes, by preventing people who would commit a non-premeditated act from having access to a gun at the time that they would commit that act.

    I don’t think it can be disputed that, in mandatory registration states like NY, microstamping would solve some crimes. Crimes of opportunity or crimes of passion. Crimes where the cops are pretty sure who did it and just need forensic evidence to make the case worth pursuing. So if we’re going to criticize microstamping–and we should–we shouldn’t do it from the perspective that it will be totally impotent, because that undermines our credibility.

    • Gidge

      What’s this going to tell police that a ballistics test wont? Unless they can match the projectile to the barrel then that tells you nothing.

      I’ve got plenty of spent cases around my house, most of which are mine though some of them are almost certainly from other people at the range that got mixed up with mine. By extension that means a few of mine are almost certainly at other people’s houses mixed in with their brass. In the event that a shooting were to occur at my house or the house of another member of my range who has some of my brass this tells the police absolutely nothing.

    • bbmg

      It’s true that many criminals aren’t exactly the brightest crayon in the box, but the fear here seems to be having unjustified fingers being pointed.

      Comparing ejector marks on two cartridges is a test that will tell you if they were both fired from the same gun or not. Microstamped cartridges will turn up a gun serial number and possibly a name, meaning the likelihood of someone being wrongly accused of gun crime now becomes very specific. Understandably, many people are not comfortable with this.

    • Nicks87

      I love people who leave comments like this.^^^

      Josh, So you are basically saying that if I dont plan on committing a crime with a gun then why should I care if my gun has a micro-stamp? Right? Just like Gidge said, What does micro-stamping do that a ballistic test cant?

      “The first time somebody commits a violent crime with a gun, they weren’t a criminal until after they did it.”

      Yeah, sure, so we are supposed to assume someone is guilty BEFORE they commit a crime? Thats utter nonsense and a violation of our constitutional rights. If we let the gun control people pass laws like this we are just opening the door for more restrictive laws in the future.

      “It’s the same as saying that gun control wouldn’t stop gun crime because criminals already get their guns illegally.”

      Does having a drinking age keep underage kids from getting alcohol? Does making drugs illegal keep addicts from using? Cars kill way more people then guns do but do we restrict ownership of automobiles? What about all the people who are stabbed to death or are severely injured by edged weapons? Do you need a back-ground check to buy a knife or a box cutter?

      Weak people and control freaks get these laws passed because they are scared. Not because they make the world a safer place. Gun laws are a political tool that left-wing people use against people who love/want freedom.

      I hope that wasnt too simplistic for you.

  • Gidge

    This legislation is more about being seen to be tough on gun crime and “showing manufacturers who’s boss” than actually making a difference.

    If police find a case at a scene with a serial number stamped in it and don’t get a ballistics match to the actual gun then even the most incompetent defense lawyer will tear them to shreds… Then they’ll expose the department to a law suit. I’d certainly sue if I was prosecuted and the police had neglected to do a simple ballistics test that would clear me.

    Firearms manufacturers are right to resist such frivolous legislation that is made at their expense. This will cost them money and cause them to loose a percentage of their customers who are uncomfortable with this.

  • http://elastomatik.wordpress.com/ edgarinventor

    Changing the World by Decree… Trying to forget, in the process, Criminals make their living, by IGNORING any Law! LOL

    About the sanctimonious, childish, feel-good Liberal mindset, see Mark Levin’s webpage… Or read his books.

    And in the last Debate, it looks Obama ate something else than Dog…
    Defeat?
    Not Crunchy!

  • bbmg

    I don’t think that the “introducing mandatory microstamping would lose jobs/state revenue” argument should be used. If there was a safety feature that would save 5 lives a year, but cost 50 jobs to introduce on the production line, would you not implement it?

    Whether or not it affects the manufacturers or government, the simple truth is that the logistical headache of making something like this mandatory would far outweight the benefits to law enforcement, especially on a market already flooded with firearms. The savvy criminal will deface or change the firing pin in the same way he would file off a serial number. The amateur meth dealer will likely be using a black market firearm that is not of recent manufacture.

    Added to the great potential for innocent legitimate gun owners being implicated in crimes they had absolutely no connection to, the legislation makes no sense even if the economic argument was completely ignored.

  • Nadnerbus

    Disregarding the fact microstamping could potentially be abused by authorities and can easily be defeated, what argument do its supporters have that it could serve a useful purpose? The Canadian long gun registry was recently scrapped due to its large cost and nearly non existent benefits. Don’t quote me, but I seem to recall reading that it could only be tied to maybe one conviction in an actual crime, and probably not even that one. This, after probably hundreds of thousands if not millions of registered guns, and large sums of public money expended to build and maintain the database. What argument can pro microstampers make that their system would be any more useful for crime solving or prevention?

    Before a new law can be passed, with its attending costs in money and greater government oversight and interference, shouldn’t it at least have to prove that it will do a significant public good? Is the standard for law now that it might work, so let’s go for it?

    • JMD

      Most laws are based around forwarding an agenda or making people feel good, so yes. It “might” work, so they’ll try it, and they have no problem spending millions of stolen dollars to do it.

  • MattInTheCouv

    if criminals are smart enough to hacksaw a stock off a shotgun to make it easier to conceal, or grind off a serial number because the punishment for that is less than being linked to that murder they commited, they are definitely going to be smart enough to sand a firing pin down. or, at the very least, know that it has to be done, and have a ‘buddy’ who knows how to do it well. or they will use revolvers more predominantly, or just not stick the guns out the windows during drive-by’s so the brass stays in the car, or just pick up the brass after they shoot somebody and then steal his wallet, or use a brass catcher, or…………

    seriously, there’s half a dozen ways around this right there, and it took me 30 seconds to think up.

    ultimately i feel that if legislation like this does pass, it would lead (in incremental steps, of course) to nationwide registration, a ban on person-to-person sales, and because it wouldn’t be that expensive (on the grand scale) a retrofit of all guns in the country to use the new firing pin or perhaps have the old ones ‘stamped’. because in order for firing pin stamping to be effective, the government would have to know who actually owned every one of those ID#’s at all times. WE know it wouldn’t work, but that would be their justification.

    • Anonymoose

      Criminals already use large caliber (.357 and sometimes .44, NEVER .50) revolvers predominantly, and uber-cheap .22s and .32s for clandestine sh*t. In my experience drive-bys are still mostly done with cheap automatic “assault pistols” (things like Tec-9s and their lookalikes, and MACs) and occasionally semi-auto WASRs. “Glawk Foties” and Hi-Points and other autos are for unprofessional low-grade criminals- the kind who would get their dumb asses killed trying to hold up a 7-Eleven by the old Asian lady at the counter.

      • Galtastic

        Dumb, Dumb, Dumb, Dumb, Dumb, o and dumb.

      • W

        most crimes committed by firearms are overwhelmingly 32 or 25 caliber pistols and 38 revolvers. Such weapons are inexpensive and low quality, which doesnt discourage the criminal from throwing it away (indeed, there was even a case where a murderer using a SIG P226 was caught and convicted, because he was reluctant to ditch such a handgun).

        As far as the TEC9s and WASR’s go, and even Glocks, this is perpetuated by gang culture and movies. The use of such weapons is extremely rare and high capacity semi-automatics actually compose less than 1/6 of 1% of all guns used in crimes (even though such statistics count weapons that are labeled “high cap, semi-automatic” or “assaulty” by the Brady crowd, such as pistols with magazines above 10 rounds).

        But you gotta love the dramatic look of HK416s, Krebs AKS74Us, and SIG 551s used by bank robbers…the movie “The Town” really katers to the assault weapons fear.

      • Anonymoose

        W, it was only about 6 or 7 years ago that my dad (who is a defense attorney) had to represent some guy who was in a gang shootout and tossed a Tec-9 and a full-auto Uzi into a trash while trying to escape the cops. So it’s not just movies and rap videos that spread that image; criminals really do use guns like that on occasion.

      • W

        Right…6 or 7 years ago.

        And where did I disagree with you? never. I said it was extremely rare. My point still stands because it based on fact rather than highlighting white buffalo instances.

      • Anonymoose

        And I’m not arguing with you. I was just stating that I know of a fairly recent case when “Hollywood-style” weapons were used in a real crime, which shows that, while it may be rare, it does happen.

  • http://www.pukeandthegang.com Puke

    They should move anyway. New York and Connecticut are horrible states for business. Move to New Hampshire. Most of us like guns and gun companies.

  • http://www.pukeandthegang.com Puke

    Yeah, what does religion have to do with anything? This is about statism vs freedom.

    • Phil White

      Puke,

      Not a thing as a couple of people are about to find out. Please keep it civil and show your fellow shooters the respect you would want.

      Insulting another persons religion is not only offensive in general but disrespects The Firearm Blog.

      People will listen and take what you have to say much more seriously if you present your position in a thoughtful manner without the insults.

      Puke this is not directed at you in the least rather to backup what you posted.

  • Anonymoose

    I presume that Remington is just trying to shift their manufacturing to right-to-work states so that they can cut as many corners as possible.

    • Bryan S.

      Cool, then they can get workers who want the jobs, and deal with them directly, instead of some mob boss wananabe taking his “fair share” off the top of the working guy or gal’s paycheck and funneling it to politicians who only support union causes.

    • Galtastic

      What is wrong with a right to work state? I am sure any of the unemployed in those states would love the opportunity to work for one of these great companies.

    • Anonymoose

      You guys are just mad because I don’t cater to your Randroid tastes. Right to Work just makes things cheaper to manufacture (generally at the cost of quality; ever notice how the Western European versions of guns tend to be better-made? Yeah, that’s because they have to use professional union labor there instead of some hack who works part time). Hell, if they could, I’m sure the Freedom Group would outsource all their manufacturing to Red China and their customer service to Pakistan to cut costs, and STILL charge the same amount for their crap. Gun companies are rolling in dough. They don’t really NEED to manufacture in Right-to-Work states to make a great profit- they’re going to charge the same prices for cheaper-made products using less-skilled workers, so really, IT IS THE CONSUMER THAT LOSES IN THIS SITUATION. If you actually knew anything about unions other than stupid talking points like “LOL JIMMY HOFFA” AND “HURR DER ALL SOSHALIST THUGZ!” you’d know that the unions are nothing like the Mob and never act like the right-wing media claims they do.

      • http://mcthag.blogspot.com/ McThag

        England is Western European. The L85 and L86 are crap.

        Look at the price of the vaunted superior quality arms they are making.

        Look at how many of them they’re selling here. The huge price tag does not buy a corresponding improvement in performance over its “cheap” American counterpart. Five times the price doesn’t automatically buy a five times better gun. And people are voting with their wallets on that.

        Where the prices are competitive, so is the fit and finish. Perfect is the mortal enemy of good enough. Good enough is far cheaper.

        So far in my experience the non-union workers make a better product with fewer quality issues in a more timely manner. Oh and they’re cheaper to hire even if their wage is the same.

      • Anonymoose

        HK has a plant in England too, and it was HK who fixed most of the problems with the L85. You’re also not getting that it doesn’t have to have a huge price tag to be good, nor does it have to have the cheapest-available labor to have a reasonable price tag.

        Also, do you really think a Shrubmaster made by non-union workers compares to a Colt, RRA, BCM, or Noveske (who all use union labor, btw)? Sure, they may be easier on your wallet, but really I have to laugh at that notion that “cheaper is better” in all areas.

        Do you remember the last time Colt used non-union labor? Their quality went to total crap because of the scabs they used and they lost the bid for all future M16A2 production to FNH. I can’t see this ending well for them at all if they decide to move all their operations to Florida.

  • cy

    I can make a firing pin with a piece of steel, a set of files and a benchvise.

  • Avery

    Getting away from the politics of the issue, why would adding a new step in the process cause 50 people to get laid off? It sounds like they would need some more help to get their factory with retooling, retraining, and incorporating the new step in compliance if the law went into effect.

    While reduced demand would have an effect in the long term, this is described as an immediate effect.

    • Phil White

      Avery,

      I don’t know the answer on the personel side but I do know from some industry folks that the price of ammo would be raised by a minimum of 10% if micro-stamping goes into effect.
      I’m guessing but I would think the job loses would happen after the micro-stamping starts. They would pick people they believe they can operate without or possibly some from the third shift?

    • Flounder

      Their claim could be completely BS but it could also have some merit. An example would be that the machine that creates the microstamping would slow down the process so much that there just wouldn’t be any work for people to do.

      Just my thoughts.

      Oh and microstamping is stupid. :D

    • lex

      Because they’re whiny little assholes who want gun owners to praise them for “going Galt”.

    • Galtastic

      Did yall even read the article? Those loss of jobs are for the state because they are threatening moving their production to another state and moving those jobs.

  • gunslinger

    more wasted $$ in my opinion. time to research every MS case…plus all the wasted time interviewing, confiscating, court battles, etc…

  • gdeck

    If you have the money to buy a gun, I don’t understand how +$12 is going to deter you. I mean if that really stops you, then either wait a week for your next paper route paycheck to come in, or you need better financial planning.

    It’s a more modern form of the serial number. Just because I saw one dude speed does not mean its legal for everyone to speed or that we should get rid of speed control laws, or that we shouldn’t try to figure out better ways to apply those laws. This is just a more precise form of laws that already exist.

    Plus that $12 government estimate? That’s at gov’t efficiency and the process will only get cheaper if anyone with more than 2 cookies in their noggin works on it.

    I believe the elephant in the room is that so many pro-guns folks don’t want to admit they’re sharing a country with other folks, who aren’t anti-gun, but wouldn’t mind some more accountability. Not everyone else is rabid anti-gun and not every law made is by some bureaucrat looking to have a gun-less country. A middle ground should be considered. If this isn’t the reasonable middle ground, what I ask, is?

    • gunslinger

      @gdeck,
      i don’t think it’s the cost that’s actually bothering people. although i’m guessing the cost would either need to be offest in the manufacturing process or passed on to the consumer. and gun companies don’t want to raise prices like that. the cost is being used as a cover/threat to move mfg elsewhere, where that cost isn’t a factor in the rifles.

      as for the “added security” i don’t buy it. the number of existing guns w/o microstamping is huge. and all MS does is say that a firing pin that once belonged to someone was used in a crime. it doesn’t mean it came from my gun, my barrel, etc… that MS pin won’t prevent crimes. and heck it may even make it harder to prosecute. the pin was from a DPMS rifle, but the bullets show sings of a M&P-15. have fun with that.

      now with all the tragedies that have happend, i can understand the call for gun control. but this isn’t gun control. it’s a stop gap to make people feel like they are doing something.

    • boskone

      Aside from the fact that it’s stupid? We don’t microstamp tires to help catch hit-and-run accidents, which are far more common.

      Firing pins get replaced rather a lot. Do you have to register them individually now? What’s the punishment for removing a microstamp? Will that apply to ones that wear out in normal use? What about moving them between firearms? If I have a race 1911 and a stock-class 1911, I might want to save firing pins from the race gun as replacements for the stock gun. What happens the first time expended brass is collected and dropped at a crime scene? Do you really think NY and CT will carefully maintain and preserve confiscated firearms?

      But most importantly, it’s because we’ve learned the hard way that there is no compromise with gun control advocates. They will never be satisfied until we are disarmed. They’re not reasonable, they’re not logical, they have an agenda and will push it regardless of the actual consequences.

      I, for one, don’t want the US to turn into the UK. Do you realize that the UK, despite their “progressive” law enforcement system, has _three times_ the violent crime rate per capita of the US? That proportion holds across the board, including homicide.

      I don’t think anyone would argue unrestricted access to weapons. I don’t want my neighbors having a fun drunken evening with hand grenades, for example. But all the talk about less guns causing less crimes is false, and anything based on that (mis)information is at best pure politics. (At worst, it’s a step toward fascism “for the greater good”.)

      • C3PO

        You got stats / references on that whole UK violent crime rate being higher than the US? because I’m highly dubious. I think it’s generally accepted that UK and Europe have generally lower violent crime rates, but I’m always will to be educated

      • bob

        @ C3PO

        The UK does have higher violent crime rates per capita than the U.S. if you counted violent crime in all categories the way the U.S. Federal Government does you end up with the real figures of the UK and some other EU nations which actually match our rates if they counted gun inflicted homicides and other violent crime(knives, blunt objects and other forms of deadly force resulting in a homicide or counting suicides in your figures like we do) involving a victim(s) the way we the (U.S.) do on a per capita bases. By the way your five times more likely to be stabbed or beaten to death and fall victim to domestic violence in the UK than in the U.S. if you break down the actual figures on a per capita bases.

        There is no standard of how to measure this stuff and most countries will cook the numbers for various political reasons especially democratically elected ones, the U.S. counts everything and keep in mind the U.S. population is 340+ million and will be greater than Europe’s by 2050 and the likely hood of falling victim to violent crime are actually very small in the U.S. on a per capita bases and having been steadily falling since the 1980′s and I’m not surprised considering the risks a criminal in the U.S. runs with trying to victimize someone being that we have contitutional guarantee with the 2nd Amendment, also 50% of the American adult population owns at least one firearm witch is over 100+ million American gun owners in a population of 340+ million.

        The way our federal government counts Firearm homicides is by including gun inflicted suicides which is 60% of all U.S. homicides out of the remainder, the majority of the other 40% involve a victim with a prior criminal record engaged in the act of a crime in the criminal drug trade. We also count in our figures firearms accidents that resulted in death, civilian self-defense (which is 2,000 cases on average in the U.S. for self-defense like against a rapist, burglar, robbers etc.), police use of deadly force with Firearms, and murder inflicted by firearm etc.

        Statistically speaking 2,000-3,000 innocent people(not involved in the commission of crime while murdered) are murdered in the U.S. on a yearly bases out of a population of 340+ million. Your odds of being murdered in the U.S are truly minuscule.

        (source http://www.cdc.gov)

        All U.S. homicides

        Number of deaths: 16,799
        Deaths per 100,000 population: 5.5
        Cause of death rank: 15

        Firearm homicides

        Number of deaths: 11,493
        Deaths per 100,000 population: 3.7

      • http://www.wolfsprojectfiles.com Wolf

        I’m also highly skeptical of that violent crime statistic. All I could find in 10 minutes of googling is a comparison of intentional homicide rates. ..The us rate is about 3 times higher than Britain’s.

        If you’re right, that’s a very interesting statistic, but I think you need a citation.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

    • bob

      Break down the statistics of homicides in your country for example and how they get counted, do your nations statistics include victim based homicide, self-inflicted homicide, accidental homicide, and what gets what doesn’t get officially included or counted as a homicide. Take into account “migrating violence” that shifted from firearms to other homicides due to draconian gun-laws such as no legal self-defense, not counting suicides to the fullest figures or other homicides into other violent or non-violent related homicides. Compare your nations real homicides figures to the U.S. homicide figures which count both accidental, self-defense, Police use of deadly force resulting in a homicide, suicides, homicides in the commission of crime, innocent victims, etc. and distinguish between firearm and non-firearm related but they both get counted in the violent homicides per capita statistic in the U.S. which in some EU nations does not as a whole. For example the self-defense statistic by firearm is non-existent in the UK homicides figures as is in the rest of the EU due the nature of the civilian gun laws and the severe limits to legal use of firearms in cases of self-defense. My facts are official U.S. Government statistics not from wikipedia which anyone can modify and don’t get frequently updated.

  • Mike Knox

    Before you’d know it, they’d start putting RFIDs in fired rounds..

    • anon

      Nah man, those rice-grain RFIDs don’t hold enough data to accurately track lot numbers.

  • http://www.hkpro.com H&K 4 LIFE

    More gun control nonsense that simply doesn’t work. It’s not even practical, and does nothing to decrease violent crime.

    What happens when the microstamped characters start to wear? When the 9′s start looking like 4′s and the 2′s kinda look like 7′s?

    It’s hard to use something like that as any form of evidence in a court of law.

  • Chase

    Judging from the scale bar in that photograph, the microstamp looks like it’s less than ten micrometers deep. A couple swipes of fine sandpaper and it’ll be gone, with no loss in the weapon’s reliability.

    This might be a good idea, but the beneficial parts are too easily eliminated by criminals, leaving the rest of us to suffer the inconvenient parts. It’s like a reactionless starship drive: a wonderful idea, with the drawback of being impossible.

    • JMD

      Reality and common sense won’t slow down politicians, however.

  • Big Red One – Ramadi

    Unfortunately for me, I live in the state of Connecticut. I have approached a regional politician in the past about this who went door to door lobbying for elections. I spoke to her at my front door and I asked her if she heard about micro-stamping up at Hartford and she informed me; “innocently and ignorantly” yes she not only heard of it, but supported the bill in committee hearings. I then informed her of the not only unproven technology, but emphasized to her that COLT stated they would remove 1,500 jobs from the state if the law was implemented. She then replied, “wow, I didn’t know that”. However, I truly felt as if I were looking at a deer in headlights.
    Today after reading this posting on thefirearmblog.com; I Emailed her asking her what her views were on this and where she stands, as well as requesting that she respond prior to Election Day. I have seen plenty of her signs around and these politicians are out to collect votes. I also brought to her attention the following article from the link below and highlighted the following quote from the article:

    “The firearms industry, which has contributed $743.8 million in total economic activity to Connecticut in 2008, employs more than 1,750 people in the state and generates an additional 3,100 jobs in supplier industries. In written testimony submitted today, industry officials made clear that many of these jobs would be at risk should micro-stamping pass into law.”
    http://www.tactical-life.com/online/news/firearms-industry-announces-opposition-to-microstamping-legislation-in-connecticut/

    However, I truly feel regardless of if the technology would prevent crimes or not… at the end of the day, these politicians who are currently in power and who are for the proposed micro-stamping are going to move forward with the bill regardless. Regardless if it works or not, regardless of the revenue the state(s) will miss out on, and regardless of the amount of jobs that will be lost. I see this happening unfortunately on account that these politicians and those lobbying the bill don’t care for the firearms industry and therefore don’t care for the workers who are employed by them. They may wait until making moves until after election day due to the fact they’re in the business of collecting votes. I think Ruger, Colt, Mossberg, and other CT based firearm manufacturing companies opposition is falling on deaf ears both in Hartford and Albany… this sucks

  • Taxman0911

    Actually a smart criminal would spend all that time to file the serial number of the shells, they would just use a revolver.

    • Cymond

      No one is suggesting that anyone will be sanding down the shells. It is the firing pin in the firearm that has the microstamping. The number is imprinted onto the shell when the firing pin strikes the primer and fires the round. Sanding the number off of each shell casing would require picking up each casing after the shooting.

      It would take less than 5 minutes to permanently remove the microstamp from the firing pin, rendering every casing untraceable.

  • mosinman

    real gun control is alowing more freedom to law abiding citizens so they can can counter the criminals. “gun control” will just cause more dead citizens

  • Chris B

    Why dont these experts buy all the stock as it leaves the factory and stamp the parts themselves at their own costs?

    • Nicks87

      Because left-wing gun-grabbers love to demand “social justice” but are never willing to fund it.

  • Seadrive

    I don’t see that microstamping doesn’t have the same problem that causes gun registries to be ineffective: the broken links in the chain from purchase to criminal use.

    A gun left at a crime scene is rarely traced to the current owner via serial number because crime guns are black market guns. Microstamping lets you start the chase from the shell casing rather than the gun itself, but it puts you on the same unproductive path.

  • Big Red One – Ramadi

    For those of you who were curious to know the response from the Connecticut State politician I Emailed yesterday regarding micro-stamping, I received an Email from her today. She seemed pretty inthusiastic about the concept and wrote an alarming statement here:

    “I understand the top priority for Connecticut gun safety groups in
    2013 is internet sales of ammunition”

    I love how Anti-gun lobbyists are referred to as “gun safety groups”. Never before had internet sales of ammunition been an issue until our President said it was after a crazy person committed a horrific crime in Colorado. So why the need to limit sales of ammunition online? Because the President said so? *Answer; it’s just one more way to chip away at the 2nd Amendment. If anything, I could see CT and other states creating a new tax on those sales. I know CT is good at implementing new taxes.

    I think it’s important to keep in mind that this correlation between internet ammunition sales and criminal behavior was ideology imposed by our President who is the same man who authorized the ATF to exercise illegal gun-trafficking into Mexico under Operation Fast and Furious. At the end of the day; Bad people… criminals, they don’t follow laws. So even if every lawful gun owner were to relinquish their Right to bear arms; Bad people would still exist with illegal firearms and plenty of ammunition for those weapons. These new restrictions soon to be imposed are just a series of efforts to eventually undermine the 2nd Amendment. The prevention of internet ammunition sales won’t stop criminals from shooting each other. Neither will the implementation of micro-stamping.

    Vote responsibly by friends…

  • http://none Anthony DiGiovanni

    I want to believe colt and remington carry out their plan move if they have to. I will back them 100 percent , YOU. GO FOR IT !!!

  • http://www.afte.org Gerard Petillo

    My name is Gerard Petillo and I am writing to add additional arguments in opposition to micro-stamping that I believe are significant and have been overlooked.

    I am a retired Police Officer now employed as a Forensic Firearm Examiner. During my law enforcement career I have investigated a number of shooting related crimes. Most if not all of these crimes are committed by career criminals and gangs engaging in unlawful activity. I have never had the opportunity to arrest a licensed gun owner for misuse of a firearm. As a Forensic Firearm Examiner I have examined many firearms and have given opinion testimony in Court regarding firearm examination. Having investigated many aspects of crimes involving firearms I would like to add the following:

    Micro stamping is being presented as a supplement or augmentation to tool mark identification. It’s clear based on the past scientific research conducted by forensic tool mark examiners, there are various ways different ammunition interacts with different firearms. Because of these variables, micro stamping technology is not capable of producing a readable make, model, and serial number on every fired cartridge case.

    Much more importantly, the focus of an investigation in an assault with a firearm is the shooter not the gun. Law enforcement does not need to recover the responsible firearm to arrest someone for illegal use of a firearm. In cases where the police find the responsible firearm, they still have to put that gun in the shooters hand at the time of the offense. Micro-stamping will not do that. All micro stamping will do (assuming the technology works) is generate manufacturer information for the firearm.

    All legitimate, responsible gun owner’s purchase firearms from legitimate gun stores. This means that there is a considerable amount of documentation and information regarding the owner and the manufacture information of the firearm. Some elected officials are trying to get people to believe that the documentation and information recorded from these legitimate gun sales will help the police arrest criminals using guns during crimes. This could not be farther from the truth.

    Unfortunately, career criminals and gangs do not purchase firearms by legitimate means. They have to obtain firearms and ammunition from illegitimate means (stolen or undocumented). This means there is NO documentation or information about the illegal possession or use of a firearm. Micro stamping will not change that.

    Therefore the information that law enforcement investigators will glean from micro stamping will not really give us any additional information to solve crimes involving firearms. It can not tell us anything about the illegitimate use of a firearm by someone who obtained the firearm on the street. Most importantly, micro stamping will not make our streets any safer.

    Micro stamping is no different than the “New Gun data base” that exists or previously existed in NY State and Maryland. Millions of dollars was spent on a computer system, its operation, and its maintenance, that can compare fired cartridge cases recovered from a crime scene to a fired cartridge case from a new firearm legally sold to a licensed firearm owner.  It is my understanding that this “new gun database” that has been in use for more than 10 years has not solved one crime!

    Just to be clear there is an excellent ballistic database in use by crime labs all over this country using traditional proven forensic tool mark methodologies that successfully link crime scene to crime scene and guns to crime scenes. The reason why this database is so successful is because the focus of the link is the time date and location of the incident rather than the manufacture information of the firearm.

    Elected officials who truly believe that micro stamping can make our communities safer need to be educated on how law enforcement investigate crimes involving firearms and what value the firearm manufacturer information has in that process. It is appalling to me to think that an elected official would attempt to misrepresent the facts about micro stamping and its potential to his/her constituents in an effort to get it passed.

    This bill mandating micro stamping will create more work for state and municipal employees to maintain record keeping and to create additional databases of legitimate firearm owners while the criminals remain stealth. Do we really need more inefficient use of our tax paid resources?

    As an alternative, elected officials should calculate how much more it would cost government municipalities to implement micro stamping and use that money for equipment and training for law enforcement investigators and forensic analysts.

    It is my opinion based on my previously stated qualifications, the above information, and as a law biding responsible gun owner, that micro stamping on firearms will not be a useful tool in solving crime involving firearms and most importantly, will not make our communities safer.

    Gerard Petillo
    Advanced Forensics & Investigations inc.
    gp@advanced-forensics.com

    http://www.nssfblog.com/microstamping-added-to-n-y-budget/

    http://www.nssfblog.com/nssf-statement-on-firearms-microstamping-study/

    • Máté

      I have a feeling, that they don’t even care if it works, or not, they just want to pretend they are doing something, so they can get elected.
      And I agree that they should know what they are talking about.