French Army to replace the Famas Rifle
I first reported rumors that the French would be replacing the FAMAS rifle back in 2009. During a recent meeting with the Commission of Defense, the French CEMAT (Chef d'Etat Major de l'Armée de Terre / Chief of Staff of the Army), General Ract Madoux, confirmed that the French Army would issue a RFP (Request For Proposals) in 2013 for a replacement service rifle for the French Army.
The French FAMAS rifle has been a disaster. Its delayed blowback action is powerful enough to rip apart regular NATO brass-cased 5.56x45mm cases and its rifling does not stabilize the modern 5.56mm NATO bullets. The French Army is forced to use steel cased 5.56mm ammunition, thus eliminating the advantages of using the same cartridge as their NATO and EU allies. It that was not bad enough, the ammunition is no longer made in France and has ben to imported. A French journalist told me that China manufactures steel-cased 5.56mm for French military (I will say that another French journalist I spoke to disputes that ammunition is imported from China).
The manufacturer of the FAMAS, the state-owned Manufacture d'Armes de Saint-Etienne (MAS), has been developing firearms since 1777 and is well known for developing the first smokeless power military rifle, the Lebel Model 1886. Sadly this organization no longer has the technical capability to develop a new rifle, which is why France is looking beyond her borders for a new rifle.
I have compiled a list of potential contenders for a new French service rifle, along with their pros and cons.
Rifles from Neighboring Countries
H&K 416 (Germany)
+ The H&K416 has good reputation, the AR-15 is well known system, Used by Norway, Turkey, USMC and French Army Special Forces. Also available in 7.62x51mm (H&K417).
- Expensive(?).
FN SCAR Mk.16 (Belgium)
+ Modern rifle. Used by French Special Forces and Special Police Teams (including those responsible for protection of the President). Available in a PDW configuration and a 7.62mx51mm configuration (Mk. 17).
- New unproven rifle. Dropped by USSOCOM.
FN2000 (Belgium)
+ Bullpup (like the FAMAS).
- Adoption has not been widespread. Used by Libya (really bad PR).
SIG 550 (Switzerland)
+ Long service history and has aged well. Many variants. Used by Switzerland, German GSG and French Special Forces.
- Non-standard polymer magazine (although there are variants that use AR-15 magazines).
SIG 516 (Switzerland)
+ Proven AR-15 design. PDW and 7.62mm variants available.
- Not (yet) adopted by a military or paramilitary organization. Not an HK416.
Beretta ARX (Italy)
+ Modern modular design. Has been adopted by the Italian Army.
- A new and not yet proven weapon.
Rifles From Other European Countries
CZ 805 BREN A2 (Czech Republic)
+ Modern design. To become the next service rifle of the Czech Army.
- Unproven. Proprietary magazine.
HS VHS (Croatia)
+ Bullpup.
- Unproven. Not a lot of space for mounting FÉLIN (French Future Solider) accessories. Looks to similar to the ill-fated FAMAS.
Steyr AUG A3
+ Bullpup. Seen combat. Adopted by a number of countries and police forces.
- The Australians seem to be spending more time developing this gun than Steyr are. Propriety magazine (although a NATO model with an AR-15 magazine is available, although I do not know if anyone has adopted it).
Rifle From Non European Countries
Remington ACR (USA)
+ The latest magnesium-alloy model is an excellent modern rifle.
- Unproven. Not adopted by any military or para-military organizations. Non-European design (So is the AR-15, but that is now made and used all over the world).
Colt Canada C7 (Canada)
+ A proven battle tested design. Used by Royal Netherlands Army, British SAS and New Zealand SAS.
- Not a very exciting rifle compared to the above models. Not European.
Tavor (Israel)
+ Bullpup (like FAMAS). Limited use in combat.
- Not a lot of space for mounting FÉLIN accessories. France is unlikely buy rifles from Israel for political reasons.
UPDATE: I have posted a followup here.
[ Many thanks to Clairon for information. ]
Ok i’m a french guy, and I will tell you my opinion about this: first it surprised me, you didn’t talk about the G36. It replaced the FAMAS in Afghanistan for our Gendarmerie Nationale (whereas the Army should use the FAMAS !), and the special units of the Police and the Commandos Marine are using it. I think this gun is less expensive than the HK 416 and even it is using polymer magazines, our friends of German Army (who share a brigade with us http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-German_Brigade) use it as their standart assault rifle !
Then we can share the guns that you show in this article in three categories:
-Those which won’t be chosen for political reasons: the ACR, the Tavor, the C7, the HS VHS and the last from Czech Republic. We don’t like Israelians, some aren’t European and buy an Czech or Croatian gun don’t look very serious for a country like mine.
-Those which are the least likely: the Steyr AUG, the F2000 and the SIGs. We had never bought a lot of Steyr guns (maybe some sniper rifle for GIGN…), the FN want to win the contract with the SCAR not the F2000, for the 516 we don’t wan’t an AR-15 (even if it is Swiss-made) and the 550 and its variants are good, their are since a long time in service for SF but there is the problem of the magazine.
-And those which are the serious challengers: the HK 416, the SCAR-L, the ARX-160 and for me the G36. They are already use by Special forces or have been seriously tested. Plus,the only manufacturers which have already made big business with French Army are Beretta (PAMAS (standart pistol for Army and Gendarmerie)), FN Herstal (Minimi and MAG (standart machine guns)) and especially HK (MP5,416,417,USP,UMP,G36 for special forces and police)
Hi,
The Gendarmerie is using the G36 to mark the fact that they went form Defense to Interior. They are still military, but they get the same hardware as the Police, which is using the G36 as its main rifle (its scheduled to replace the aging Beretta 12SD SMG).
Main problem with the G36 is that it’s really expensive. Mexico’s deal was 63 million euros for 30 000 rifles. Giving them an individual cost of 2100 euros around $2600 USD each. They instead decided to design their own rifle.
And then there’s the cost of retraining, logistics and change of doctrine because they aren’t using a bullpup, that served as a one size fits all rifle.
My bet is on the Steyr Aug, cheaper, it’s a good bullpup, patents have expired and France has in Thales a company experienced in designing, testing and manufacturing it.
Other Steve,
Perhaps I should have phrased my question better. Maybe I should have asked if you own any HK’s that are still HK’s. You know, like NOT home-made, or off to the machinist because you and him just know more than the engineers.
You’re the one that stated: “First hand knowledge be damned… ITS HECKLER AND KOCH!”
It seems to me that you’re the one lacking in that department. But mall-ninjas often are.
To be fair, my newest HK is a USP .45 that I bought in 1995, so I have no first hand knowledge of newer models; therefore I am not qualified to comment on them. Unlike you, I am willing to admit that I am not a super-authority on all things “guns”.
Your “foot in mouth” reference, though undeserved, is exactly what I expect from people of your ilk.
If France goes to replace FAMAS, it would be by the reason of
high cost to manufacture that rifle.
Speed of Breechbolt Opening can easily be adjusted with contact
surfaces of Carrier, Bolt and Delay Lever along with extracting
grooves in chamber. The replacement cause can not be the nature
of rifle.
Possible replacement, also, can not be M16 clone , since that concept
already has high manufacturing costs. Most probably, French will go
to design their own rifles simply being of a litlle different version of AR18
like SCAR, ACR, HK G36 and others.
My money is on them either getting the SCAR or the FN2000. They are both weapons that fits France (IMO) and it would be politically a very good move. “If we can’t make it here, well Belgium will do”
Btw, I’m quite happy of being able to read a comment thread about the french army, on a “red meat internet” blog, mostly (haven’t checked the last ones) devoid the “cheese eating”, “white flag”, “only fired once…” Bull-sh9t. This a couple weeks after the 11th of november (4 out of 5 drafted family members KIA during the Great War… scr8w you, youtubes commenters), good.
A nice change of pace! I’m proud of you all (just joking).
That Tavor is amazing, ive used it before on a special forces military tour in israel. All the instructors who taught us how to use the weapons loved it. I think it would be a great addition to frances arsenal, and if anybody else out there wants to give it a shot, check out http://www.lionops.com. thats the company i was with, we did a lot more than just shooting the Tavor-2
Oh, I thought France, U.K., and U.S. will use there rifles until 2210.
So, is upgrading the F1 unrealistic? I.E., if the G2 works okay why can’t the F1 get new barrels, mag wells etc?
@Lance,
Why would the SCAR-L getting booted by SOCOM stop the French from buying (if the above isn’t an option)? It works (just not a massive improvement over an M4), and FN would offer good prices…
I just see France using another Bullpup since there troops used them for over 20 years now. The Tavor wont be used since France has strong anti-Israeli sentiment. The FS 2000 or AUG would be better bets. I still think a possible G2 upgraded would be a possible solution as well. The fact is most of this is talk and no one really know whats happening in side the Military’s HQ in Paris.
“The Australians seem to be spending more time developing this gun than Steyr are. “
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2011smallarms/WednesdayInter12397Evenden.pdf
PS: The Australian Steyrs are made by Thales; a French company.
actually sig516 was adopted by thai navy several month ago.
http://www.thaipoliceshootingclub.com/forum/index.php?topic=6161.0
Fun looking pics wish you had the writing in English. I notice they also had M-16A1s there too to shoot with also.
I have posted a followup here:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/11/24/french-army-famas-rifle-replacement-follow-up/
It answers many of the questions and comments posted here.
I’m not really impressed with the current state of gun technology.
I fail to see how any of the more recent gun designs are superior to the 60+ year old AK-47 and and 50+ year old M16.
The improvements in commercial gun technology since then are quite small.
The only improvement I’d want if I was a soldier would be a better bullet.
The 5.56 is too small and the 7.62 is too big. Give me something inbetween and I’d be a happy camper.
And of course, I’d always want a lighter and more reliable gun. But I don’t really see gun weights coming down or becoming more reliable.
So *meh* @ all these latest (and more expensive) assualt rifles.
The gun industry really needs to step it up a notch in my opinion.
Sure, you can make it lighter and more reliable. Simply pour in the cash for polymer, aluminum alloys, quality steels, surface conversions , extra machining for fluted barrels etc -which means expensive rifles.
Really though, small arms technology has not really advanced further than confining an explosion in something, for it to propel a small piece of metal very quickly.
My GUESS would be that France would want to buy weapons from a nearby (European) nation that speaks FRENCH, for logistical purposes if nothing else. Belgium AND Switzerland speak French (although they also speak Italian and German in Switzerland and Dutch and German in Belgium). Not to say there aren’t plenty of people in Germany and the USA or other places who speak French fluently and would thusly be able to handle any sales or communications issues which may occur, but I would assume that arms makers located in bordering states who share a common language (even if it’s not the predominant language in that nation) with the buyer probably have a distinct advantage.
The FAMAS is not a so bad rifle as people describe it.
small, easy to use and powerfull.
I had good time with it.
Try to launch a rifle grenade with an AR-15 and we will see the results. And don’t tell me that a M203 does the same things
Rifle grenade launching is still teached in French forces and I saw guys in Afghanistan wearing 6 rifle grenades…
Today the rifle is “old”, and yes an 20 years old barrels is the best way to miss an ennemy at 100 yards.
For the replacement, the choise is difficult. Today the price is important, and as France got good relation with FN Herstal this may be a good response. Another point is that the French army is not obliged to replace all the rifles. The special force have their “own” budgets for buying their own guns, the Navy can continue to use the G2 version and a part of the army can continue to use the F1. Don’t forget that in France we where still using machine gul like MAT49 (born in 1949) or handgun (MAC50) during the 1990th.
All M16s are capable of launcher 22mm rifle grenades from their flash suppressor. The US never went that route because of the M203.
You have to switch cartridges to launch rifle grenades, you have to switch triggers with an under barrel. The superiority of the latter is not debated by anyone.
You do not have to switch cartridges on newer rifle grenades, check out the SIMON grenade for example:
http://www.rafael.co.il/Marketing/342-1005-en/Marketing.aspx
The french RG are fired with a bullet trap, and from what I get, the french soldiers prefer them over the 40mm, *much* more bang for the buck, though, it’s not a “or” situation (the 40mm rifle attachements are often used by specialized units when necessary), and everybody agree that the almost complete lack of vehicle or tripod-mounted AGL, again, except for some sf, is a big weakness in the french TOE (again, something that has more to do with the sorry inner workings of the french political-miltary-industrial complex than with anything doctrinal).
Actually, quite a few armies still use RG (I’d say Israel, Columbia, SA, Russia,…?), even those who also use 40mm – different tools.
Something to consider: there are no more ‘national’ arms industries. It just happen that HK is located in Germany; financial relations are international and that turns the crank. Forget therefor phenomenon of ‘national pride’. There is little of it left in French forces – they are ‘professional’ and will do what they are told regardless.
It surprised me that author calls FAMAS “disaster”. It was not. Personally, I had short encounter with it and remember that ejection (with brass cased ammo) was near perfect and the gun just sat at target I chose to place it at. The only negative was that you have to keep your head straight up because of tall sights. So for that.
One design, by far too innovative and potentially surpassing anything known (if perhaps not politically) is AN94. This design is far ahead of the pack, namely in area of hit probability. Did anyone see the video of guy shredding stock of bricks with it?
I carried a Famas for the better part of 3 contracts and here is what I think of it. It’s a girl friend, not pretty, sometimes out of place, but always there when you need her. Unless you’re care for her, and practised with her, you won’t be worth sh*t. She doesn’t forgive fools, or the non-attentive, but give her a little love and she’s faithful through and through.
Maybe the political or patriotic issues with not buying French aren’t quite as prevalent when the question is of a fellow Euro member state, but I think buying Russian rifles is an entirely different matter.
Beautiful though the AN-94′s technology may be, it’s a singularly Russian creation, to say nothing of its absurd price. My general rule of thumb is that, if a country has not adopted the AK-47 or the AK-74, it’s probably not going to adopt any of Izhmash’s other creations.
I think that the AN-94′s technology is going to remain Russian until a Western company copies it, and maybe throws it into a package that looks a little more like an AR-15.
But maybe I’m wrong. Still, I balk at the idea of the Russians supplying weapons to America or any of its allies.
A lot of talk here about which gun France will IMPORT… I have no insider knowledge, but my gut is that even if they farm out the design, it will end up license-produced at MAS, just like the Beretta 92′s in service with them are (PAMAS G1). Also just like the Canadians do with C7/8′s, the Swede’s did and do with the AG3 & AK 5, and many other countries with solid manufacturing bases of their own do with service rifles. Just sayin…
I see the benefits of bullpups, but have never been a fan. That is mainly due to having trained with other weapons. Someone that has trained with a bullpup and used them almost exclusivly will probbaly not like other more conventional weapons.
CZ 805′s “proprietary” magazine is interchangeable with G36 magazine and mag well can be easily changed to accept AR-15 mags. (why czech army choosed those stupidly wide mags and not AR-15 ones is beyond me..)
Just saying.
The F1 FAMAS will be replaced I don’t see the F2 going away. With French pride a factor I see a F2 or G2 version being adopted. Due to issues in SOCOM I really doubt the SCAR or ACR will be used. HK and F2000 have good chances. France would probably go with another Bullpup to make a easy transition with current French troops.
Let’s put some history in there, just for fun.
France has never spit on its neighbors guns. Even before 1945 the French Army worked with guns built all over Europe, and even bought Thompson SMGs to replace the feeble PM38 SMG (the guns went to the Brits after France fell)
Since then, they have used a good number of guns not developed locally. Of course until 1973 we had a small arms development capacity.
But the MAS has built contract-specific HK G3 rifles. They also built Beretta 92s for the Navy, Army and Gendarmerie.
Manurhin built contract SIG rifles in the late 70s to equip the French Army, to bridge the gap left by the MAS49/56 and not yet covered by the FAMAS (for units deployed to Lebanon in 82 mostly)
So if the gun is form one of the neighboring states, there is little chance of it not being built in one of Nexter’s plants.
For the funny guy Jaymes, revise your facts : in WW1 the French Army held the front all the way.
For any other funny people, France lost 85 310 killed in the Battle of France alone. In about one and a half month.
That’s an awful lot of dead people for a fleeing army, especially when the death toll of the US Army from 1941 to 1945 averages 17000 for 2-month periods.
Few Americans with a brain think that the French are cowards. Strange? Surely? Yep, but not cowards. Anyone that thinks they are should look at something called “Verdun”.
People also tend to forget that at the same time the French were being routed by the Germans, the British were too.
Anyone with any knowledge of European history doesn’t buy into the “France surrenders” meme. I think it got cooked up by The Onion (the satire newsletter) and took on a life of it’s own.
“Its”, not “it’s”. Sorry…
Hi guys
That is an impressive list right there.
I think the French won’t be adopting the SCAR for a different reason: the French dislike anything Belgian! As in serious though, I think the fact that it was dropped by SOCOM is actually a point in favor of the weapon and not against, Steve, especially since the reasons presented for the USSOCOM dropping it do not affect the overall value inherent to the rifle.
The F2000 being used by Lybian SpecOps is bad PR, I concur, but it is no reason not to buy and use it, since there are a few countries that were adopting it already! If that was the case, then Americans should not like having or buying Ak47w since they were used by the Soviets who were their antagonists for decades! See my reasoning here…? Also, we are very far from the truth behind the Lybian affair… And that’s enough politics from me on the subject…
Regarding the AR-15 clones, including the HK416, C7, etc… They are most likely the ones beng picked up, though I agree with Steve that HK needs to make them affordable and not for deep pockets, especially in a time of european recession!
The Beretta ARX-160 would be interesting, and surely by 2013 the ARX will have had enough field work and additional testing and improvements to enable it to be a serious contender…
Regarding the SIG (the SWISS SIG, mind you), I think they can be a good contender, especially since they are already being used by French SpecOps, which provides familiarity and lots of data already on the rifle’s performance and endurance…
I think there could be five aspects that could define the next French rifle: familiarity (bullpup design), modularity, durability, performance and, of course, price!
I think they should adopt a SCAR or Colt CM901 since they are designed to accomodate 5.56 and 7.62… The ACR and the other unproven designs could be tested and who knows, one of them might surprise the French Army testers…
I personally think they will choose an European brand (FNH, HK, SIG, Beretta, etc)… Less messy that way, especially regarding spare parts, shipping, etc…
Once we know for sure which weapons will be entering the 2003 competition, we will know which weapon or weapons we will be rooting for…!
Cheers!
The recent purchase of MAG58 to replace the ANF1 machine gun show the French Army does not hate Belgian guns.
I know that, Aurelien…
I also know the French Army recently procured FN-MAGs for their armoured vehicles as well…
It was my feeble attempt at humor… Guess you took it seriously, huh? Sorry about that…
Cheers!
I heard from my friend in the French army that the FN SCAR and the Steyr Aug have the most chance to replace the Famas.
A couple of thoughts on the AR platform making it:
- Can be done w/FN in Belgium
- Can be done by licensing the design and setting up factories make/assemble it in France to have it ‘Made in France.’
This whole list of pros and cons is amateur at best. Fluff piece most likely. Troll bate at worst.
Sig’s con is “- Not an HK416.”
… REALLY? Marketing bias much? Does the author have any sort of comparative experience with both platforms to back this up?
I’m not defending the SIG 516, I have no experience with it. But I suspect neither does the author.
“Looks to similar to the ill-fated FAMAS.” really takes the biscuit.
France have historically been quite friendly with Israel, although I too don’t think they’ll look outside of Europe for a new rifle.
Steve, if it was you who wrote this article, then I am most profoundly disappointed of you. This has to be one of the most misleading and misinformed articles I have seen in a while.
“The French FAMAS rifle has been a disaster”
The first version of the FAMAS -the F1- has had some heavy faults, but those have been already worked out for a long while -current standard version is the G2-. Remember, the FAMAS was adopted in 1978 and is still the standard issue rifle for the french armed forces -among others.
“Its blowback action is powerful …”
The FAMAS uses a lever delayed action -the same as the AA-52 machine gun in 7.62×51. It is not inherently a bad action -remember, some of the finest weapons out there have delayed blowback actions, like the classic H&Ks.
“and its rifling does not stabilize the modern 5.56mm NATO bullets.”
That was the case with the F1 version and it’s 1:12 rifling. The current G2 has 1:9 rifling and is compatible with SS109 and M193.
If you don’t research enough, you force on us your loyal readers a whole bunch of misinformation -or blatant errors.
What you say would be true, if the G2 actually replaced the F1. The G2 was only adopted by the Navy, the Army chose to keep the F1, meaning that they still have to suffer with all of the original problems with it. I think the problem with the action on the FAMAS is the fact that it is not delayed enough, so that the case is not fully supported when the pressure is still quite high potentially causing kabooms using regular brass cases.
One look at this, and I knew the author should’ve been ready to catch some flak.
Particularly on the “Pros and Cons,” what with them being rushed and the most prominent con being “unproven.”
If they ditch ‘em someone needs to find a way to bring them stateside and convert them for civilian use. Last real one I saw was hanging out on Gunbroker for over 12 grand.
I suspect that the ARX-160 has a good chance. Seems to be a quite good design, definetly very modern and it will come from a well known neighboor.
I have no idea how the ARX-160 works, or how it would be received by the French.
I just don’t like how it looks like it has a diaper around the magazine. It looks almost as bloated as an F2000.
It looks bloated, but it’s quite light weight.
It’s a typical short-stroke piston gun, with the BCG being designed to deal with a piston (unlike ARs with a piston slapped into).
The gun caught the attention of many for being extremely modular, very quick changes of both barrel and ejection side.
>The H&K416 has good reputation
This was my personal weapon when I was a guardsman in the Norwegian army, the only ones dumb enough to like it is often the unexperienced recruits or conscripts who have barely put 100 rounds through it on a comfortable range.
Officers and seasoned soldiers will tell you the same, the rifle is a piece of garbage, several Norwegian ISAF soldiers to this day will go out of their way to have their old G3 rifles issued to them, knowing this 416 may, and will malfunction.
The biggest issues we’re talking about is the gas port clogging up, gas regulator breaking, the buffer tube coming loose, ejectors just coming straight off the bolt, the piston and the piston rod both breaking is also very common, the supplied front sight is also completly useless, as the corn is way too thick, and the folding sight will be frozen in place by carbon if it’s in the folded position, and the rear sight couldn’t be more flimsy.
The 416 is not a good weapon, not even decent, I would never trust my life to it, and the few days I had to use it under the attacks 22 July, I put more confidence in my somewhat lacking ability to use the bayonet, the few experienced soldiers with me would say the same, if their rifles must have been used for whatever reason, they couldn’t have trusted them 100%, and for me at least, who doesn’t think guns are good because they look cool, that’s a big problem
Thanks for the first hand knowledge. Just a friendly note, do not go over to hkpro.com, those guys LOVE their HKs and that company can do no wrong to them. First hand knowledge be damned… ITS HECKLER AND KOCH!
Interesting that every one of your gripes are all HK specific issues. A standard M4 has none of those problems or at least lower potential for crappy sights and etc. All this not even mentioning that a standard M4 is over a pound lighter than a 416.
Then again, it’s not a piston design and we’re told how much better and more reliable piston systems are every day…. Yea, that’s sarcasm.
I would have preferred a M4, or a Diemaco C8 which some of us had, we had a couple of H&K fanboys as well, but their expectations of the rifle were crushed after a few weeks in the field, or whenever their guns started coming apart back at camp for no apparent reason
Finally, the HK bashing begins. Other Steve, I’m shocked that a website devoted to HK firearms would have HK fans. Shocked I tell you. Perhaps Glock fansites are made up of people that prefer Iver Johnson revolvers? You speak of first hand knowledge. I would be curious to know how many HK’s you have owned, and which models they were.
To balci, since you have experience, I will take you at your word and appreciate your report. Your statement “to this day will go out of their way to have their old G3 rifles issued to them” really hits home with me. I have always considered any AR-based rifle to be a failure waiting to happen. On the other hand, the HK 91 that I bought in 1981 is still just as reliable, powerful, and (nearly) as accurate as it was when I bought it new, even after 20,000+ rounds.
AR…trying to turn a sows’ ear into a silk purse for decades.
AR…easy to find “tactical” bolt-ons. (tactical…LOL)
HK91/G3…acquire ammunition…shoot.
@AZRon
Indeed, our G3 rifles, or AG3 as they’re called, were produced right here in 1964, they’re great rifles, and whoever has served with them will often and always make comments about how flimsy the 416 is.
Personally I joined the force after the adoption of the 416, so I haven’t been much in contact with the G3, but I could tell it was a far superior rifle, provided it has been mended after the constant wear it has been exposed to after nearly 50 years.
To me, the G3 makes much more sense for the kind of warfare we were trained on, while the adoption of the 416 seems like some kind of desperate attempt to modernize our doctrines, even though that hasn’t, and won’t happen.
AZRon, yea, go ahead and go there. Please….
I own a SBR MP5 that I built from a flat and german demil parts kit. Finished by Ralph at RDTS because I wanted a good coating for it. Took the non-french A3 stock off and use an A2 because it fits me better. Use an FBI trigger pack because I like the Navy pictograms more than the SEF style. I have an HK P30S that is at my machinist getting threaded in 1/2×28 for my cans. An HK P2000sk I sold after owning and carrying for awhile. Using the jig I made for the MP5, I helped a friend roll a 91 body and had that completed rifle for about 8 months, enough time to determine it’s nice, but heavy and the collapsible stock is less than useless on that rifle. An HK marked/Benelli Super 90 M1 which probably counts just as much as my HK flare gun. I haven’t shot the MR556, but I have shot a semi LWRC lower with a 14.5″ HK416 upper, it was fine, but nothing special to me, heavy if anything was remarkable about it.
I know HK just fine thanks. Also, how does that foot taste?
That is what happens when you try to turn a DI design into a piston one, Other Steve!
The piston rifles who are designed from the ground up are not as flawed as this one, not by a long shot! 100 rounds?!?! The HK416 is nothing but a DI converted into piston! And a pisspoor job at that, it seems! I haven’t fired one, but I tend to trust people who did, especially soldiers who relied on them for survival! Maybe it was the Norwegian version, maybe not! The truth is that the Delta were asked to return their HK416s… Maybe that was one of the reasons or the main reason why… Purely speculative on my part…
Do not confuse weapons like the FAL, the SCAR and other piston driven rifles by design which are more robust and far less prone to jamming, to patched-up designs who try to be what they were not designed to be in the first place!
The Ar-15 was never designed to be piston driven! That is why Eugene Stoner designed the AR-18 in the first place! Otherwise, he would have just slapped a piston and an uprod to it, and that would have been all she wrote!
This is another reason why conversions like these are very ill-advised! I even suspect that the piston version of the CM901 is probably never gonna lift off the ground! Why settle for a flawed conversion when you can have the real deal?!
Cheers!
Was talking to an Italian SF dude last week. I have no personal experience myself with the 416, and am not claiming firsthand knowledge, but his sentiments echoed very much yours. He said that the 416 would become unreliable after only a few rounds (maybe 150) being fired, and that stovepipes and all sorts of other malfunctions would follow. He really seemed to think the weapon was sub-par in terms of its reliability.
I never had too much reliability problems with mine, it usually fed just fine, but it would rarely behave like you’d expect, I received mine new in box, and by the end of my service, it was useless.
because the gas port becomes clogged after a few hundred rounds, you’re pretty much left with a straight bolt action rifle, it would have been acceptable if you could disassembe the gas block and clean it, but it’s all staked in place by roll pins, and you can’t exactly visit the quartermaster in his armory when you’re deep in the woods, hundreds of miles from civilization.
The gun would also become disabled under cold temperatures (-35 celsius) usually the bolt would refuse to go anywhere, best remedy for this would be to heat it up in the tent, as jerking it out would damage the charging handle.
Sorry but Delta Force and Some MARSOC and SEALs have 416s in service and is used by the USMC as well the 416 is a very relighable weapon.
Wasn’t it a U.S. Navy SEAL with an HK 416 that put a bullet in Osama’s eye?
And where did you hear that U.S. Army Delta Force abandoned it? They were the soldiers who put the most input into its development. And I think it’s safe to assume that Delta soldiers are some of the best shooters in the world.
Except Eugene Stoner didn’t design the AR-18. He designed the AR-16, and the point of the design was to produce a cheaper rifle than the AR-10/15. Piston ARs work, they’ve been shown to work, and the SEALs don’t seem to mind theirs.
Most new weapons have issues when they’re first introduced, especially when they’re introduced during war time.
I’ve fired thousands of rounds through the 416 and the AG-3 before it, so I feel somewhat competent to address your concerns.
(BTW, labelling people with different opinions than yourself “stupid” doesn’t help the discussion. Just sayin’…)
Through years of using the AG-3, and putting a few thousand rounds through it, including 600 in one day, I’ve experienced no more malfunctions than I can count on one hand, and all of them were either magazine or operator related. A superbly reliable weapon, but heavy and with awful ergonomics. One example is the placement of the safety. I’ve got long fingers and can’t reach the safety without tilting the weapon or letting go of the pistol grip.
My rifle platoon (Home Guard “Innsats”) got the HK416 maybe three years ago during the inital rollout of the weapon. So we got brand-spanking-new weapons.
During trainining and the first few hundred rounds on the range, the weapons jammed like crazy. There were double feeds and failures to extract and such all up and down the firing line. Some feeding problems jammed the weapons up really tight, and took several minutes to clear.
But it got better. There were fewer and fewer problems, and for the last year or so malfunctions have been rare, maybe one or two per range session per platoon.
So it seems like the HK416 needed to be “run in”, so to speak, to function reliably. As the AG-3 was put in service when my father’s generation was conscripted, and can’t speak to how it was in the beginning.
The other breakages I haven’t seen during my service. We had a couple of issues with the optics, that’s all.
The folding front sight does get fouled and stuck with carbon. The easiest solution is to leave it up, as it is set up to co-witness with the red dot sight anyway.
Personally, I was well pleased with the changeover. Better ergonomics, lighter weapon (I’ve been going on lots of patrols…), higher ammo capacity (30 shots vs 20 shots in-weapon during contact drills is a big difference), easier to shoot well.
Strange. You would think that expensive army-issue guns would have enough QC done so to not need a break-in period.
Why was the long standing, proven, Steyr AUG not mentioned?
I will be willing to bet that every one of these “newer” rifles will be replaced within 2 to 3 years as unsatisfactory…
Spiff
You mention the Colt Canada C7 and note that it’s a “battle tested design” but you don’t mention that the country with the most “battle testing” of the platform is Canada itself?!
Yea, I think everyone agrees this is a REALLY poor article.
Does nobody proofread these posts? Some parts are nearly unreadable.
It’s not a bug; it’s a feature.
Fabrique National is from Herstal which is in Wallonnia* where people speak French. While one would hope that this would not in any way influence any French procurement official I think everyone can agree that it’s always nice to buy things from people who speak your own language. I have a hard time seeing the French buy either a German or an Italian Rifle, if nothing else than out of national chauvenism and the historical antagonism between the three nations.
*Walloonia also used to be part of France proper until 1814 so really an FN rifle would be semi-domestic ^^
I cant understand why the NATO alliance cannot standardize their weapons/ammo.
The AR platform has served reliably for decades.
Why the French (haha) resistance to this weapon system??
Just what we need, NATO dictating what small arms we should use.