Prototyping a .45 SMG
Strike Industries emailed me photos of a futuristic .45 ACP submachine gun that Sam, their engineer, printed out on their rapid prototyping machine. Its a very nifty design.
73 Responses to “Prototyping a .45 SMG”
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anonwrote on October 22nd, 2011 at 1:30 am Link To Comment |
Pretty nice, but I might remind them that most of the successful pistol caliber carbines out there [Kel-Tec, Beretta, Ruger (NLA, I know), etc.] use readily available pistol mags. Effort spent on the mag is probably wasted. At the very least, design it to use Tommy Gun stick mags or M3 Grease Gun mags. Put those development dollars into the fire control group – bullpup triggers are notoriously hard to get right.
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John Doeresponded to anon on October 25th, 2011 at 11:23 am Link To Comment |
There are too many types of pistol magazines. Why can’t we enforce a STANAG-like standard for each caliber?
I’d like to be able to drop a 33-round round Glock magazine into a H&K MP5.
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Naterwrote on October 21st, 2011 at 5:13 pm Link To Comment |
That’s pretty cool, but I don’t see the need for a bullpup in general, certainly not with an SMG. The .45 ACP doesn’t need anymore than perhaps 8″ of barrel length, anything over that really isn’t going to add much it’s effectiveness. The whole point of a bullpup is to get longer barrel lengths in smaller packages, so why bother with all the down sides of a bullpup when you don’t need a long barrel?
Lastly, I would think that the 10mm Auto is the ultimate choice for a sub machine gun. It packs more energy at 100m than the .45 ACP does at the muzzle and has a much flatter trajectory all while allowing a slightly higher capacity.
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Tinkererresponded to Nater on October 22nd, 2011 at 2:39 am Link To Comment |
The guys at Ballistics by the Inch had made a enourmous effort on actually measuring muzzle velocity for varios barrel lenghts, calibers, and even different loadings. From what I see, .45 ACP can benefit quite a bit from longer barrels -some light (165 gr) loadings can squeeze up to 1400 fps from a 18″ barrel.
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto.htmlAs for 10 mm Auto, the optimum seems to be around 15-16″
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/10mm.html reaching up to 1600 with the lightest 135 gr loading. Surprisingly, with an equivalent 165 gr from the light .45 loading, the muzzle speed is about the same for similar baller lenghts. Now, with heavier loads, the scales tip in favor of the 10 mm.Finally, I have to say that the muzzle velocities for .40 S&W rounds out from carbine lenght barrels look quite interesting.
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/40sw.htmlWhat I do see is that the design from the prototype we see, doesn’t quite take full advantage of the bullpup design. The whole bolt/magwell/chamber portion could be positioned even further back. However, if they intend to give it a very long recoil travel for the bolt, they might be able to make it eject spent cases straight down, positioning the ejection port behind the magwell. That would also give you lower felt recoil and lower ROF, improving controlability, and making the bullpup fully ambidextrous.
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Tinkererresponded to Tinkerer on October 23rd, 2011 at 2:04 am Link To Comment |
@Hrachya Hayrapetyan
Actually, the ROF being lower can be a good thing for a SMG. Many SMGs out there had to be fitted with a mechanical ROF limiter in order to tone down ammo consumption and improve controlability. It’s no so much the same for a machine gun, where you actually want to send as much lead downrange as you can.
@Alex-mac
There can be many advantages for a SMG or pistol-caliber carbine: decreased chances of overpenetration, lighter ammo, improved reliability of bullet expansion -5.56/.223 has the tendency to not fragment reliably when shot from a short barrel due to dimished muzzle velocity. That can be improved with hollow/soft point ammo in .223, but those are forbidden in military operations -not so much in LEO-. On the other hand, a fat .45 can do a lot of tissue damage, even if it doesn’t expand. Then there’s also the possibility to attach a suppressor to the muzzle -which is a very good idea when shooting heavy, subsonic .45 ACP-. It can be done too in a short barreled .223 barrel, but the benefits would be greatly reduced in comparison to a .45 that would burn most of it’s powder load inside the barrel instead of inside of the suppressor -how it would happen with a rifle caliber in a short barrel.
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Alex-macresponded to Tinkerer on October 22nd, 2011 at 9:09 pm Link To Comment |
Don’t see the point of a pistol calibre bullpup. Why would anyone choose a 13 inch barrel 10mm bullpup over a 13 inch barrel 5.56 rifle? (Micro Tavor)
The only reason I can think of is muzzle blast and noise. A valid reason but one unlikely to shared by the majority of shooters, who want stopping power, range and penetration.
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Dennyresponded to Tinkerer on October 22nd, 2011 at 5:30 am Link To Comment |
Very good point. With anything like this it has to be ballistics first to determine the rest. Although practical functionality points such as you mention, have their value too (e.g. why to leave so much bolt overtravel if choosing bullpup…)
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Hrachya Hayrapetyanresponded to Tinkerer on October 22nd, 2011 at 7:37 pm Link To Comment |
The idea with ejection port behind the magwell is great …but it also will cause low rate of fire (for full auto guns). What do you think?
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Dougresponded to Nater on October 22nd, 2011 at 4:36 pm Link To Comment |
While the 10mm may be more impressive ballistically, to make this SMG a money-maker, either the company producing the weapon would really have to hype it up, or the 10mm would have to become much more readily available.
Maybe it’s more common where you all are, but around my parts it’s pretty much non-existant. I’ve seen guns being made for 10mm, but is it actually regaining popularity?
I’m also in agreement that ejecting the cases downward would truely optimize this design, no matter what caliber you choose.
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Naterresponded to Nater on October 21st, 2011 at 7:02 pm Link To Comment |
10mm – 180gr projectile at 1,350fps gives you around 730ft-lbs of muzzle energy.
.45 ACP +P – 200gr projectile at 1,080fps gives you around 520ft-lbs of muzzle energy.
10mm gives a larger increase in muzzle energy over .45 +P than .45 +P gives you over 9mm +P.
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chengsam2000responded to Nater on October 21st, 2011 at 5:58 pm Link To Comment |
can you give more opinion of .45 and 10MM?
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subaseresponded to Nater on October 21st, 2011 at 8:42 pm Link To Comment |
Yep, and with pistol based submachine guns, which have their magazine loaded on the grip, they are halfway to bull-pup status as it is. Steyr TMP, Uzi, Heckler & Koch MP7.
Instead what’s really needed is a quick deploy stock on a pistol. But one that folds up to keep the pistol concealable. Slide mounted optics as well as lights and lasers have extended the range of the pistol. As has more powerful pistol caliber technology. All of which have high capacity magazines available.
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abprosperwrote on October 22nd, 2011 at 9:08 am Link To Comment |
Looks like a cyberpunk Street Treat and I suspect that sometime in the near future bootleg 3d printers will be able to make real firearms on demand. Governments will hate that but so long as some means of making ammo can be had, they’ll be able to do little about it.
As William Gibson once wrote “The Street will find its own uses for things”
This technology is the beginning of a real shift back to small scale localized manufacturing. Instead of having a big gun plant, individual communities could have a 3d metal press device and roll their own arms for police or whatever use.
Its an interesting change as it brings a level of sophistication to backyard gun smithing and put them in competition with factories, post industrial society for many things will look more like manorial society and the cottage industry, something I think will in general be a good trend, well unless you own a factory.
Right now though, well its a neat prototyping machine.
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jdunresponded to abprosper on October 22nd, 2011 at 10:21 am Link To Comment |
No because plastic won’t withstand the pressure. You’re going have a KB! and at worst killed yourself for being a moron.
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Other Steveresponded to jdun on October 22nd, 2011 at 11:07 am Link To Comment |
Plastic won’t hold the pressure? Please explain to me how “plastic” won’t “hold the pressure”… Let’s ignore that by “plastic” you mean polymers, composites and glass filled nylons and let’s also ignore that guns don’t “hold” any pressure at all, especially not the receivers that are merely containers for the bolt and carrier and support for the chamber inside the steel barrel.
I mean, the UMP is “plastic” with only a metal bolt and chambered barrel. It’s 45acp as well. The bolt rides on two nylon rails that will probably wear slower than the steel.
You’re right though, that UMP and every other polymer gun out there is bullshit because they can’t hold the pressure. My MP5 is a good design because it’s metal – metal good. My TP9 must be a piece of shit because it’s plastic – plastic bad. Steel uzi’s good – Polymer Uzis bad. Am I getting this right?
I swear, this blog does a pretty good job of new stories, enough for me to keep coming back, but it also seems to attack some real clueless commentators.
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Tinkererresponded to jdun on October 23rd, 2011 at 11:10 am Link To Comment |
@jdun
Just who in the seven blazing hells has ever said anything about making a firearm completely out of polymers? It’s obvious that barrel, bolt and many springs still need to be made out of metal -yet-. But frankly, those can be made in CNC machines anyway.
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bbmgresponded to jdun on October 25th, 2011 at 1:35 am Link To Comment |
A PVC cartridge can be made to withstand several hundred psi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ1I2hVTeWs
Granted it will never take the thousands that a firearm will, but up the calibre to 0.5″ – 0.75″ with a heavy lead bullet and you don’t need much pressure to match the muzzle energy levels of a 22LR – a 0.5″ lead ball will do it at a mere 500 feet per second.
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John Doeresponded to jdun on October 24th, 2011 at 12:44 pm Link To Comment |
By plastic, you also mean carbon composites, which are plenty strong. And like Glock, most of the internals will still be metal.
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jdunresponded to jdun on October 23rd, 2011 at 9:10 am Link To Comment |
Ok go make a gun that is made out of pure plastic and see how that work out for you. Go ahead do it.
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aeronathanwrote on October 22nd, 2011 at 5:27 am Link To Comment |
For the people saying that the rapid prototyping (RP) plastics aren’t durable enough, that’s true in some instances. However, there are other RP methods and materials available that can produce very durable parts.
Selective laser sintering is a method that can produce metallic parts and is almost to the point you can feasibly produce every part of a weapon aside from the magazine spring and the barrel….
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Dougwrote on October 21st, 2011 at 5:12 pm Link To Comment |
Very cool. Hopefully they can produce it themselves or sell it to a company that won’t jack the price to unreasonable levels.
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Nadnerbusresponded to Doug on October 23rd, 2011 at 5:14 pm Link To Comment |
So basically, don’t sell the rights to Bushmaster.
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Airriderresponded to Nadnerbus on October 24th, 2011 at 11:32 am Link To Comment |
…or HK.
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Burstwrote on October 21st, 2011 at 5:35 pm Link To Comment |
@nater think civilian applications.
The legal reqs for barrel length are arbitrarily 16″, so the idea is to get that length into the shortest chassis possible.
Similarly, I’d bet the lower noise, energy, and higher prior ownership of .45
make this a better match for a home security arm than 10mm.Please rate this comment: 4 1-
Naterresponded to Burst on October 21st, 2011 at 6:58 pm Link To Comment |
The legal regulations are for 16″ barrels unless you pay a tax stamp, then you can have whatever barrel length you wish. Not that the laws aren’t stupid to begin with.
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Dougresponded to Nater on October 22nd, 2011 at 4:39 pm Link To Comment |
Federally, yes. But state law varies greatly. Some states allow for the federal tax stamp, others do not.
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Sidwrote on October 22nd, 2011 at 8:58 am Link To Comment |
How close are we to seeing the M41A1 pulse rifle?
Yes, I know it fired standard 10mm, caseless, explosive-tipped, light-armor piercing bullets. But when I see technological leaps like this, I begin to wonder what is in the immediate future.
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William C.wrote on October 23rd, 2011 at 12:37 pm Link To Comment |
Looks like something from Deus Ex.
Anyway, it is interesting to see how such technology could change weapons prototyping and development. Mainly by making it easier for smaller companies I would think.
Hope to see a real product in a few years.
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Westwrote on October 22nd, 2011 at 7:44 am Link To Comment |
This would be an awesome tool for making movie prop guns.
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Adamresponded to West on October 22nd, 2011 at 12:45 pm Link To Comment |
We actually have a 3d printer at my school. Many of the props that our DVA students make are designed and printed out on the printers. Our robotics majors also like them quite a bit. Great tool, and all universities should have them, even if its not a main curriculum piece, it is such a versatile tool. High schools should have them as well IMO.
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fw226responded to Adam on October 24th, 2011 at 7:42 am Link To Comment |
That’s an awesome idea. I never thought about that. Now all the made-for-TV shows or high school plays can have imaginative props!
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Graciewrote on October 23rd, 2011 at 4:02 am Link To Comment |
THIS is why I want a 3D printer…
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6677wrote on October 23rd, 2011 at 12:47 am Link To Comment |
I would estimate about 15cm between the ejection port and the rear of the stock. Seems a bit pointless to me, you could move the action way further back than that and have a much longer barrel.
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Other Stevewrote on October 22nd, 2011 at 6:05 am Link To Comment |
HK UMP meets Magpul PDR
And I don’t know where some of you get your info from, but rapid prototyping can make everything from corn starch parts to titanium. The glass filled nylon that the ump is made from can absolutely be prototyped from the same material with SLS.
I’m not going to shit on anyone that does anything to get me a PDW style gun developed. Do Want.
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John Doewrote on October 26th, 2011 at 8:32 am Link To Comment |
I think 3D printing would be the future for special operators. Those guys already essentially carry whatever weapon they want to whatever modification (Tier 1 units), so if a weapon custom-built to each operator is what they’re looking for, what could supply it better than this? A molded cheekrest and grips would be really nice, and you could shift the balance forward or backward to the operator’s preference. I’m surprised each base doesn’t already have their own.
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Harald Hansenwrote on October 21st, 2011 at 7:44 pm Link To Comment |
Very interesting. I’ve recently wondered about what would be the 2011 equivalent of the Sten gun? I’m thinking of clandestine low-cost, quick production in small workshops. Wikipedia tells me that the Mk III Sten could be produced with five man-hours of work. Certainly we could do even better today? What could a few hours late at night in a CNC shop “behind enemy lines” accomplish?
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Mikeresponded to Harald Hansen on October 21st, 2011 at 8:39 pm Link To Comment |
Actually, it would be… a Sten gun.
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Dennyresponded to Harald Hansen on October 22nd, 2011 at 2:05 am Link To Comment |
Sten gun is one of most problematic SMGs ever. No need to resurect it. In addition, those man-hours you read abot are based on existence of dedicated tools/ fixturing. In their absence it may take you 2 months to build one sample, if you are lucky.
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SpudGunwrote on October 22nd, 2011 at 3:45 am Link To Comment |
The beauty of rapid prototyping and 3D printing is that you can make (superficially) whatever your heart’s desire.
For launching a new product, your sales pitch will be a lot stronger if you follow the old adage of ‘show me, don’t tell me’. By physically being able to put something in someone’s hands, you gain a great advantage over a 2D drawing.
As for the prototype pictured, I feel the same way about it as I do the KRISS – it’s too big, too heavy, overly complicated and doesn’t really have a use. Other then that, I think it looks cool.
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Colinwrote on October 23rd, 2011 at 12:01 am Link To Comment |
Can’t decide what I like more, the concept or the 3D printer that made it! I could make the bullpup – 5.56 – 7.62 common upper – I’ve been designing
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Willwrote on October 23rd, 2011 at 1:45 pm Link To Comment |
Looks like this guy and kel-tec have been playing too much halo…and I LIKE it. Hope this one becomes real steel. I’d love to have a 16″ civilian version.
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Mikewrote on October 23rd, 2011 at 2:05 pm Link To Comment |
What 3d printer was used? Also, how many pieces was it printed in?
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Andy from CTwrote on October 24th, 2011 at 4:18 am Link To Comment |
How about printing out a “quad stack” .45 mag? Or 9mm. If it’s done maybe some actual manufacturers will give it a shot. Bridge the capacity gap between standard mags and drums. For those that want the extra capacity but don’t like the bulk of drums. I know drums will always hold more but the quad stacks still offer a significant increase.
I, myself will be buying some of those Surefire 60 round mags (the 100 round ones are silly) for my future .300 BLK build.
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chengsam2000wrote on October 21st, 2011 at 5:48 pm Link To Comment |
it is very funny that they forget to repair the upper…………
more comment needed
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JTwrote on October 24th, 2011 at 2:37 pm Link To Comment |
So, does anyone know how long before 3d printers (that can replicate their own parts that is), are available that can print in readily-available metals?
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6677responded to JT on October 25th, 2011 at 3:23 am Link To Comment |
Current home ones can print with LEADED solder, lead free jams them up abit.
Industrial ones have been known to print aluminium and titanium.
Home 3d printers when self replicating have the issue that the plastic being printed is molten yet the nozzle is made of the same material. If your printing molten ABS from an ABS nozzle then of course its going to melt after a few minutes.
The rep-rap 3d printer available for home use can print all of its own mounting brackets but motors, electronics and metal guides need to be supplied externally. Some people have supplemented the metal guides with 3d printed alternative mechanisms but it is not yet possible for a full 3d printed printer.
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JTresponded to 6677 on October 25th, 2011 at 10:04 am Link To Comment |
Thanks ^_^
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Zackwrote on October 22nd, 2011 at 4:16 am Link To Comment |
I have noticed that alot of people think that the 3d printer objects featured here have the strenght of other plastics. This is not true, the plastics used in the printer are very brittle and you could propabley snap this thing in half with your hands. This is only a 1:1 model and just to see how it feels.
Enough of the smart guy stuff, this thing looks pretty cool to me.
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Dennywrote on October 22nd, 2011 at 1:59 am Link To Comment |
Actually, the core of every design and its potential contribution is in operating mechanism. Format/ architecture are secondary. Since I do not see description of former I cannot judge it, the later is in my opinion – rather clumsy. And caliber application? Not innovative at all; just look around.
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sparkywrote on October 22nd, 2011 at 12:19 am Link To Comment |
What design? It just looks like a plastic stock. It would be easier to lay the stock out in laminated plywood than invest in a printer. And you can’t print the trigger group, barrel, or bolt.
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Tinkererresponded to sparky on October 22nd, 2011 at 2:59 am Link To Comment |
Well, the way I see it, the idea for the 3d printing is rapid prototyping straight from CAD design. And in this case, more than actually making a working firearm, it seems like the idea was to test ergonomy and other things that need to be tested IRL rather than on a computer screen.
As for trigger group, bolt and barrel: I can understand that both bolt and barrel can’t be made on a 3D printer -yet. But the trigger group? Remember that the Steyr AUG’s firing group is made entirely out of polymers -including the hammer-. Only the springs -and maybe the pins- are steel.
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Rev. Clintresponded to sparky on October 22nd, 2011 at 8:04 am Link To Comment |
my plum crazy lower uses polymer for the trigger group except for the couple springs.
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Online Gun Shopwrote on October 22nd, 2011 at 5:44 am Link To Comment |
Reminds me of something off of star wars, pretty neat!
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Netforcewrote on October 21st, 2011 at 5:52 pm Link To Comment |
This looks interesting.
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chengsam2000responded to Netforce on October 21st, 2011 at 5:59 pm Link To Comment |
the SMG design or the model?
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Netforceresponded to chengsam2000 on October 25th, 2011 at 12:58 am Link To Comment |
The design.
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Raywrote on October 21st, 2011 at 7:05 pm Link To Comment |
Interesting design to say the least and it also goes to prove that attempts at arms control are useless to say the least. Sam what printer are/was you using? The resolution looks quite low end.
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SLwrote on October 21st, 2011 at 8:24 pm Link To Comment |
Make .22 kits…make more $$$ and legal to sell and purchase!
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Mikeresponded to SL on October 21st, 2011 at 8:38 pm Link To Comment |
Make airsoft gun… make more $$$ and kids can have one too!
(actually, I’d like an airsoft gun like that, and it’s pretty straightforward to do. V6 gearbox with P90 trigger system and M1A1 hop-up)Please rate this comment: 3 1-
SLresponded to Mike on October 21st, 2011 at 9:39 pm Link To Comment |
Good idea….they should make pellet gun version too!
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Tomwrote on October 24th, 2011 at 6:17 am Link To Comment |
I wonder if they’d make a lefty version? I’d love to have a 16″ civilian version.
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Bakerwrote on October 22nd, 2011 at 2:25 pm Link To Comment |
I too am in the “looks cool but impractical” camp.
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JRwrote on October 22nd, 2011 at 12:27 am Link To Comment |
Hmmm, reminds me of the magpul PDR.
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Lancewrote on October 22nd, 2011 at 7:01 am Link To Comment |
Looks like Steve can print out his own SMG make the ATF scared to death. Print me a M-16 Steve.
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Nickwrote on October 23rd, 2011 at 9:16 am Link To Comment |
Looks very interesting for airsoft guns(lower pressure on the frame then paintball) I would love to print up a ump or so and build a gearbox for it. No offence but I don’t see any applications to real steel in the next 5 or so years(you can qoute me). It looks like someone could set up a nice one man airsoft factory with this.
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Jimwrote on October 23rd, 2011 at 1:12 pm Link To Comment |
This is going to introduce a whole new era of self inflicted injuries. I wonder if people will get out of the military in ten years by “accidentally” shooting themselves in the hand during practice fire.
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MarkMwrote on October 23rd, 2011 at 2:53 am Link To Comment |
The ability to come up with a working prototype essentially means nothing in the development cycle. It’s when you take 100 guns and run 120,000 rounds each thru them that the most important tweaks come about. That takes millions of dollars. Andy McNab commented recently that the SA80 cleanup cost HK over 85 million GBP. NOW it works – but he still doesn’t like it.
While the tech is getting down to the user level, the next question is how the BATF views RP machining something that potentially could be used as a firearm? Yes, I AM raising the red flag over concern of our favorite boogyman, but if they have to write policy over using a piece of string, how much more the receiver of a full auto gun?
RP a M4 lower with working three shot burst and get back with us on how many mags you could put through it. Ah, on second thought, don’t.
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tomasoresponded to MarkM on October 23rd, 2011 at 11:45 am Link To Comment |
first…it didnt take HK 150million USD to fix the SA80 that was the total production retail cost to upgrade the SA80…you make it sound like HK fronted 150million to fix a problem…thats untrue…….they made the weapon better then sold 150million worth of product…..second anyone can build a firearm unless restricted by a conviction…but no machine guns or short barrel rifles or shutguns (16″barrles and no shorter then 26″ ..shotguns 18″ barrels)unless you get a tax stamp ..as stated all NFA rules apply.
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NikonMikonresponded to MarkM on October 23rd, 2011 at 10:18 am Link To Comment |
What are you talking about? It is 100% legal for a person to create a firearm in their home without any interaction with the ATF as long as he has no intention to sell it. Don’t spread misinformation. In short the ATF doesn’t give a flying blank. Just don’t sell them.
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NikonMikonresponded to NikonMikon on October 23rd, 2011 at 11:32 am Link To Comment |
I need to clarify, they must respect NFA law. This means only Title 1 weapons. No machine guns, SBR’s, SBS’s, AOW etc…
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iroquois pliskinwrote on October 22nd, 2011 at 1:26 am Link To Comment |
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
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Beaumontresponded to iroquois pliskin on October 22nd, 2011 at 7:52 am Link To Comment |
Hey, Steve, how about restricting comments to those written in proper English?
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Tinkererresponded to iroquois pliskin on October 22nd, 2011 at 2:55 am Link To Comment |
Copy? The way I see it, there’s just a few ways that you can design a bullpup weapon that feeds from standard magazines. In the end, just like many contemporary traditional-layout weapons look similar, the same would go for bullpup-layout weapons. Right now, only the FN P90 breaks the trend on how a bullpup looks.
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I think 3D printing would be the future for special operators. Those guys already essentially carry whatever weapon they want to whatever modification (Tier 1 units), so if a weapon custom-built to each operator is what they’re looking for, what could supply it better than this? A molded cheekrest and grips would be really nice, and you could shift the balance forward or backward to the operator’s preference. I’m surprised each base doesn’t already have their own.
So, does anyone know how long before 3d printers (that can replicate their own parts that is), are available that can print in readily-available metals?
Current home ones can print with LEADED solder, lead free jams them up abit.
Industrial ones have been known to print aluminium and titanium.
Home 3d printers when self replicating have the issue that the plastic being printed is molten yet the nozzle is made of the same material. If your printing molten ABS from an ABS nozzle then of course its going to melt after a few minutes.
The rep-rap 3d printer available for home use can print all of its own mounting brackets but motors, electronics and metal guides need to be supplied externally. Some people have supplemented the metal guides with 3d printed alternative mechanisms but it is not yet possible for a full 3d printed printer.
Thanks ^_^
I wonder if they’d make a lefty version? I’d love to have a 16″ civilian version.
How about printing out a “quad stack” .45 mag? Or 9mm. If it’s done maybe some actual manufacturers will give it a shot. Bridge the capacity gap between standard mags and drums. For those that want the extra capacity but don’t like the bulk of drums. I know drums will always hold more but the quad stacks still offer a significant increase.
I, myself will be buying some of those Surefire 60 round mags (the 100 round ones are silly) for my future .300 BLK build.
What 3d printer was used? Also, how many pieces was it printed in?
Looks like this guy and kel-tec have been playing too much halo…and I LIKE it. Hope this one becomes real steel. I’d love to have a 16″ civilian version.
This is going to introduce a whole new era of self inflicted injuries. I wonder if people will get out of the military in ten years by “accidentally” shooting themselves in the hand during practice fire.
Looks like something from Deus Ex.
Anyway, it is interesting to see how such technology could change weapons prototyping and development. Mainly by making it easier for smaller companies I would think.
Hope to see a real product in a few years.
Looks very interesting for airsoft guns(lower pressure on the frame then paintball) I would love to print up a ump or so and build a gearbox for it. No offence but I don’t see any applications to real steel in the next 5 or so years(you can qoute me). It looks like someone could set up a nice one man airsoft factory with this.
THIS is why I want a 3D printer…
The ability to come up with a working prototype essentially means nothing in the development cycle. It’s when you take 100 guns and run 120,000 rounds each thru them that the most important tweaks come about. That takes millions of dollars. Andy McNab commented recently that the SA80 cleanup cost HK over 85 million GBP. NOW it works – but he still doesn’t like it.
While the tech is getting down to the user level, the next question is how the BATF views RP machining something that potentially could be used as a firearm? Yes, I AM raising the red flag over concern of our favorite boogyman, but if they have to write policy over using a piece of string, how much more the receiver of a full auto gun?
RP a M4 lower with working three shot burst and get back with us on how many mags you could put through it. Ah, on second thought, don’t.
What are you talking about? It is 100% legal for a person to create a firearm in their home without any interaction with the ATF as long as he has no intention to sell it. Don’t spread misinformation. In short the ATF doesn’t give a flying blank. Just don’t sell them.
I need to clarify, they must respect NFA law. This means only Title 1 weapons. No machine guns, SBR’s, SBS’s, AOW etc…
first…it didnt take HK 150million USD to fix the SA80 that was the total production retail cost to upgrade the SA80…you make it sound like HK fronted 150million to fix a problem…thats untrue…….they made the weapon better then sold 150million worth of product…..second anyone can build a firearm unless restricted by a conviction…but no machine guns or short barrel rifles or shutguns (16″barrles and no shorter then 26″ ..shotguns 18″ barrels)unless you get a tax stamp ..as stated all NFA rules apply.
I would estimate about 15cm between the ejection port and the rear of the stock. Seems a bit pointless to me, you could move the action way further back than that and have a much longer barrel.
Can’t decide what I like more, the concept or the 3D printer that made it! I could make the bullpup – 5.56 – 7.62 common upper – I’ve been designing
I too am in the “looks cool but impractical” camp.
Looks like a cyberpunk Street Treat and I suspect that sometime in the near future bootleg 3d printers will be able to make real firearms on demand. Governments will hate that but so long as some means of making ammo can be had, they’ll be able to do little about it.
As William Gibson once wrote “The Street will find its own uses for things”
This technology is the beginning of a real shift back to small scale localized manufacturing. Instead of having a big gun plant, individual communities could have a 3d metal press device and roll their own arms for police or whatever use.
Its an interesting change as it brings a level of sophistication to backyard gun smithing and put them in competition with factories, post industrial society for many things will look more like manorial society and the cottage industry, something I think will in general be a good trend, well unless you own a factory.
Right now though, well its a neat prototyping machine.
No because plastic won’t withstand the pressure. You’re going have a KB! and at worst killed yourself for being a moron.
Plastic won’t hold the pressure? Please explain to me how “plastic” won’t “hold the pressure”… Let’s ignore that by “plastic” you mean polymers, composites and glass filled nylons and let’s also ignore that guns don’t “hold” any pressure at all, especially not the receivers that are merely containers for the bolt and carrier and support for the chamber inside the steel barrel.
I mean, the UMP is “plastic” with only a metal bolt and chambered barrel. It’s 45acp as well. The bolt rides on two nylon rails that will probably wear slower than the steel.
You’re right though, that UMP and every other polymer gun out there is bullshit because they can’t hold the pressure. My MP5 is a good design because it’s metal – metal good. My TP9 must be a piece of shit because it’s plastic – plastic bad. Steel uzi’s good – Polymer Uzis bad. Am I getting this right?
I swear, this blog does a pretty good job of new stories, enough for me to keep coming back, but it also seems to attack some real clueless commentators.
Ok go make a gun that is made out of pure plastic and see how that work out for you. Go ahead do it.
@jdun
Just who in the seven blazing hells has ever said anything about making a firearm completely out of polymers? It’s obvious that barrel, bolt and many springs still need to be made out of metal -yet-. But frankly, those can be made in CNC machines anyway.
By plastic, you also mean carbon composites, which are plenty strong. And like Glock, most of the internals will still be metal.
A PVC cartridge can be made to withstand several hundred psi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ1I2hVTeWs
Granted it will never take the thousands that a firearm will, but up the calibre to 0.5″ – 0.75″ with a heavy lead bullet and you don’t need much pressure to match the muzzle energy levels of a 22LR – a 0.5″ lead ball will do it at a mere 500 feet per second.
How close are we to seeing the M41A1 pulse rifle?
Yes, I know it fired standard 10mm, caseless, explosive-tipped, light-armor piercing bullets. But when I see technological leaps like this, I begin to wonder what is in the immediate future.
This would be an awesome tool for making movie prop guns.
We actually have a 3d printer at my school. Many of the props that our DVA students make are designed and printed out on the printers. Our robotics majors also like them quite a bit. Great tool, and all universities should have them, even if its not a main curriculum piece, it is such a versatile tool. High schools should have them as well IMO.
That’s an awesome idea. I never thought about that. Now all the made-for-TV shows or high school plays can have imaginative props!
Looks like Steve can print out his own SMG make the ATF scared to death. Print me a M-16 Steve.
HK UMP meets Magpul PDR
And I don’t know where some of you get your info from, but rapid prototyping can make everything from corn starch parts to titanium. The glass filled nylon that the ump is made from can absolutely be prototyped from the same material with SLS.
I’m not going to shit on anyone that does anything to get me a PDW style gun developed. Do Want.
Reminds me of something off of star wars, pretty neat!
For the people saying that the rapid prototyping (RP) plastics aren’t durable enough, that’s true in some instances. However, there are other RP methods and materials available that can produce very durable parts.
Selective laser sintering is a method that can produce metallic parts and is almost to the point you can feasibly produce every part of a weapon aside from the magazine spring and the barrel….
I have noticed that alot of people think that the 3d printer objects featured here have the strenght of other plastics. This is not true, the plastics used in the printer are very brittle and you could propabley snap this thing in half with your hands. This is only a 1:1 model and just to see how it feels.
Enough of the smart guy stuff, this thing looks pretty cool to me.
The beauty of rapid prototyping and 3D printing is that you can make (superficially) whatever your heart’s desire.
For launching a new product, your sales pitch will be a lot stronger if you follow the old adage of ‘show me, don’t tell me’. By physically being able to put something in someone’s hands, you gain a great advantage over a 2D drawing.
As for the prototype pictured, I feel the same way about it as I do the KRISS – it’s too big, too heavy, overly complicated and doesn’t really have a use. Other then that, I think it looks cool.
Actually, the core of every design and its potential contribution is in operating mechanism. Format/ architecture are secondary. Since I do not see description of former I cannot judge it, the later is in my opinion – rather clumsy. And caliber application? Not innovative at all; just look around.
Pretty nice, but I might remind them that most of the successful pistol caliber carbines out there [Kel-Tec, Beretta, Ruger (NLA, I know), etc.] use readily available pistol mags. Effort spent on the mag is probably wasted. At the very least, design it to use Tommy Gun stick mags or M3 Grease Gun mags. Put those development dollars into the fire control group – bullpup triggers are notoriously hard to get right.
There are too many types of pistol magazines. Why can’t we enforce a STANAG-like standard for each caliber?
I’d like to be able to drop a 33-round round Glock magazine into a H&K MP5.
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Copy? The way I see it, there’s just a few ways that you can design a bullpup weapon that feeds from standard magazines. In the end, just like many contemporary traditional-layout weapons look similar, the same would go for bullpup-layout weapons. Right now, only the FN P90 breaks the trend on how a bullpup looks.
Hey, Steve, how about restricting comments to those written in proper English?
Hmmm, reminds me of the magpul PDR.
What design? It just looks like a plastic stock. It would be easier to lay the stock out in laminated plywood than invest in a printer. And you can’t print the trigger group, barrel, or bolt.
Well, the way I see it, the idea for the 3d printing is rapid prototyping straight from CAD design. And in this case, more than actually making a working firearm, it seems like the idea was to test ergonomy and other things that need to be tested IRL rather than on a computer screen.
As for trigger group, bolt and barrel: I can understand that both bolt and barrel can’t be made on a 3D printer -yet. But the trigger group? Remember that the Steyr AUG’s firing group is made entirely out of polymers -including the hammer-. Only the springs -and maybe the pins- are steel.
my plum crazy lower uses polymer for the trigger group except for the couple springs.
Make .22 kits…make more $$$ and legal to sell and purchase!
Make airsoft gun… make more $$$ and kids can have one too!
(actually, I’d like an airsoft gun like that, and it’s pretty straightforward to do. V6 gearbox with P90 trigger system and M1A1 hop-up)
Good idea….they should make pellet gun version too!
Very interesting. I’ve recently wondered about what would be the 2011 equivalent of the Sten gun? I’m thinking of clandestine low-cost, quick production in small workshops. Wikipedia tells me that the Mk III Sten could be produced with five man-hours of work. Certainly we could do even better today? What could a few hours late at night in a CNC shop “behind enemy lines” accomplish?
Actually, it would be… a Sten gun.
Sten gun is one of most problematic SMGs ever. No need to resurect it. In addition, those man-hours you read abot are based on existence of dedicated tools/ fixturing. In their absence it may take you 2 months to build one sample, if you are lucky.
Interesting design to say the least and it also goes to prove that attempts at arms control are useless to say the least. Sam what printer are/was you using? The resolution looks quite low end.
This looks interesting.
the SMG design or the model?
The design.
it is very funny that they forget to repair the upper…………
more comment needed
@nater think civilian applications.
The legal reqs for barrel length are arbitrarily 16″, so the idea is to get that length into the shortest chassis possible.
Similarly, I’d bet the lower noise, energy, and higher prior ownership of .45
make this a better match for a home security arm than 10mm.
The legal regulations are for 16″ barrels unless you pay a tax stamp, then you can have whatever barrel length you wish. Not that the laws aren’t stupid to begin with.
Federally, yes. But state law varies greatly. Some states allow for the federal tax stamp, others do not.
That’s pretty cool, but I don’t see the need for a bullpup in general, certainly not with an SMG. The .45 ACP doesn’t need anymore than perhaps 8″ of barrel length, anything over that really isn’t going to add much it’s effectiveness. The whole point of a bullpup is to get longer barrel lengths in smaller packages, so why bother with all the down sides of a bullpup when you don’t need a long barrel?
Lastly, I would think that the 10mm Auto is the ultimate choice for a sub machine gun. It packs more energy at 100m than the .45 ACP does at the muzzle and has a much flatter trajectory all while allowing a slightly higher capacity.
can you give more opinion of .45 and 10MM?
10mm – 180gr projectile at 1,350fps gives you around 730ft-lbs of muzzle energy.
.45 ACP +P – 200gr projectile at 1,080fps gives you around 520ft-lbs of muzzle energy.
10mm gives a larger increase in muzzle energy over .45 +P than .45 +P gives you over 9mm +P.
Yep, and with pistol based submachine guns, which have their magazine loaded on the grip, they are halfway to bull-pup status as it is. Steyr TMP, Uzi, Heckler & Koch MP7.
Instead what’s really needed is a quick deploy stock on a pistol. But one that folds up to keep the pistol concealable. Slide mounted optics as well as lights and lasers have extended the range of the pistol. As has more powerful pistol caliber technology. All of which have high capacity magazines available.
The guys at Ballistics by the Inch had made a enourmous effort on actually measuring muzzle velocity for varios barrel lenghts, calibers, and even different loadings. From what I see, .45 ACP can benefit quite a bit from longer barrels -some light (165 gr) loadings can squeeze up to 1400 fps from a 18″ barrel.
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto.html
As for 10 mm Auto, the optimum seems to be around 15-16″
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/10mm.html reaching up to 1600 with the lightest 135 gr loading. Surprisingly, with an equivalent 165 gr from the light .45 loading, the muzzle speed is about the same for similar baller lenghts. Now, with heavier loads, the scales tip in favor of the 10 mm.
Finally, I have to say that the muzzle velocities for .40 S&W rounds out from carbine lenght barrels look quite interesting.
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/40sw.html
What I do see is that the design from the prototype we see, doesn’t quite take full advantage of the bullpup design. The whole bolt/magwell/chamber portion could be positioned even further back. However, if they intend to give it a very long recoil travel for the bolt, they might be able to make it eject spent cases straight down, positioning the ejection port behind the magwell. That would also give you lower felt recoil and lower ROF, improving controlability, and making the bullpup fully ambidextrous.
Very good point. With anything like this it has to be ballistics first to determine the rest. Although practical functionality points such as you mention, have their value too (e.g. why to leave so much bolt overtravel if choosing bullpup…)
The idea with ejection port behind the magwell is great …but it also will cause low rate of fire (for full auto guns). What do you think?
Don’t see the point of a pistol calibre bullpup. Why would anyone choose a 13 inch barrel 10mm bullpup over a 13 inch barrel 5.56 rifle? (Micro Tavor)
The only reason I can think of is muzzle blast and noise. A valid reason but one unlikely to shared by the majority of shooters, who want stopping power, range and penetration.
@Hrachya Hayrapetyan
Actually, the ROF being lower can be a good thing for a SMG. Many SMGs out there had to be fitted with a mechanical ROF limiter in order to tone down ammo consumption and improve controlability. It’s no so much the same for a machine gun, where you actually want to send as much lead downrange as you can.
@Alex-mac
There can be many advantages for a SMG or pistol-caliber carbine: decreased chances of overpenetration, lighter ammo, improved reliability of bullet expansion -5.56/.223 has the tendency to not fragment reliably when shot from a short barrel due to dimished muzzle velocity. That can be improved with hollow/soft point ammo in .223, but those are forbidden in military operations -not so much in LEO-. On the other hand, a fat .45 can do a lot of tissue damage, even if it doesn’t expand. Then there’s also the possibility to attach a suppressor to the muzzle -which is a very good idea when shooting heavy, subsonic .45 ACP-. It can be done too in a short barreled .223 barrel, but the benefits would be greatly reduced in comparison to a .45 that would burn most of it’s powder load inside the barrel instead of inside of the suppressor -how it would happen with a rifle caliber in a short barrel.
While the 10mm may be more impressive ballistically, to make this SMG a money-maker, either the company producing the weapon would really have to hype it up, or the 10mm would have to become much more readily available.
Maybe it’s more common where you all are, but around my parts it’s pretty much non-existant. I’ve seen guns being made for 10mm, but is it actually regaining popularity?
I’m also in agreement that ejecting the cases downward would truely optimize this design, no matter what caliber you choose.
Very cool. Hopefully they can produce it themselves or sell it to a company that won’t jack the price to unreasonable levels.
So basically, don’t sell the rights to Bushmaster.
…or HK.