XM25 After Action Report

Army.mil reports

“The XM25 brought the difference to whether they would stay there 15 to 20 minutes shooting (and) taking pot shots or the actual fight ended after using the XM25,” said Sgt. 1st Class Carlos Smith, Soldier Requirements Division, Maneuver Center of Excellence, Fort Benning, Ga. “That was due to the defilade capabilities of the XM25 to shoot beyond targets and behind targets.”

The XM25 allows Soldiers to engage defilade targets — those behind a barrier, protected from oncoming weapons fire. The XM25 measures the distance to the enemy’s protective barrier, and can then program the round to detonate a user-adjustable distance past that — allowing Soldiers to put an air-bursting round directly above the enemy’s head, inside their protected area.

Since then, hundreds of XM25 rounds have been fired in theater, though only 55 of those rounds were fired as part of combat, on nine different operational missions.

“We disrupted two insurgents on an OP (observation point) and we silenced two machine-gun positions — two PKM positions,” Conley said, describing some of the scenarios he witnessed in theater where the XM25 had been used. “We destroyed four ambush locations, where the survivors fled.”

I had to look up the word “defilade”. A defilade target means a target using a protective barrier or terrain to protect themselves from fire.

I sounds like the concept it working well. The Koreans were said to have deployed their K11 airburst weapon system in Afghanistan over a year ago, but we have heard nothing about the deployment since then.

[Hat Tip: The Register]

[ Many thanks to root and jdun1911 for emailing me the link. ]



Steve Johnson

Founder and Dictator-In-Chief of TFB. A passionate gun owner, a shooting enthusiast and totally tacti-uncool. Favorite first date location: any gun range. Steve can be contacted here.


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  • Soldier Systems

    Kit Up! broke this story a week ago after the Army’s initial story sounded kind of fishy.

    http://kitup.military.com/2011/02/inside-the-xm-25-after-action-reports-from-afghanistan.html

  • Zach

    I had no idea they kept the airburst grenade launcher portion of the XM29 project. Cool. I wonder how effective those small 25mm grenades are, though. It would definitely be useful to be able to put on of these through the window of a building held by insurgents.

    And Steve, the article explains what defilade means right there at the beginning of the second paragraph.

  • Lance

    One awesome weapon.

  • snmp

    That realy nice toy in bullpud configuration

    In other hand, if each standard Rifle could launch Rifle grenade (with 2 or 3 grenade per soldier) every patrol could have the same effect with more versalitie.

  • Call me cynical, but I don’t know of any new weapon which hasn’t received glowing initial reports from the people responsible for introducing it.

    Note that there is no word about casualties caused, so no check as yet on the claimed lethality (the main area of controversy).

    I’ll reserve judgment until it is in general use and we get direct feedback from everyday users.

  • Uribury871

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/unc-cfc-usfk/5030859251/in/set-72157624923773753/. South korean K-11 in afghan. Rearside soldier held K-11 rifle.

  • Caseless

    Cool, a specialized tool for a specific role. Just like the door-breaching shotgun.

  • Maverick Moore

    The amount of money involved in this thing blows my mind. Especially the fact that each round is well over 1000 rounds. I feel like if they bumped up grenade size, or made a multi-shot launcher, things would work better

  • There may not be anything to report WRT the Korean weapon. The only Korean military troops in country are a PRT (Provincial Reconstruction Team) and it’s associated security element (which is quite beefy). I’d assume it’s the security troops, most likely infantry types, who have the weapon.

    Anyway, the ROKs are based out of Bagram Airfield, and operate in Parwan province. It’s not exactly a high threat area, and most enemy activity takes the form of rocket attacks on BAF, with occasional IEDs (very occasional). Direct fire engagements were almost unheard of when I was there (May 09-Jun 10).

    So they might not have used the things other than at the range.

  • charles222

    As to the amount of money involved-infantry kit was expensive at the start of the war and has only gotten more so since then. When you consider every soldier totes a rifle with around five grand in associated electronics, the price for personal body armor, personal radios (not issued to everyone, but going in that direction), cold and wet weather gear, etc, etc, an average infantryman is more expensively dressed that alot of poorer Hollywood actors.

  • jdun1911

    Not a good weapon IMO.

    Explosive too small and weapon too heavy that translate to whoever carrying it will have to remove existing weapons from their layout. Not a good trade off.

  • Soldier Systems

    I have heard a number of 1 confirmed KIA

  • Sian

    Gen. Fuller calls this a game-changer, and for once, this is not hyperbole. A weapon like this will define infantry tactics for the next century.

  • jdun1911

    Tony Williams and I finally agree on something. When the field testing is finish and the program canceled due to the lack of being effective. You will have decades of internet commandos whining that the US military yet again cancel a good program.

    If you can’t kill your enemies and they keep coming back for more sooner or later they’ll going to get a luck shot. I rather have something that is able to suppress and kill the enemies than an half ass heavy weapon that nothing well.

    With that said I wouldn’t mind shooting it. It’s a win win for me if someone paid for my enjoyment.

  • Jeff m

    Even if it isn’t as lethal as aJDAM or whatever you all expect, it seems to be just what the doctor ordered. Make that stupid goat herder put down the machine gun for good, he goes home and tells his buddies what happened and they stop fighting. Peace through superior firepower.

  • Mountainbear

    I’m pretty sure it’s a good weapon. Under the right conditions.

    The issue I have with it is the following: what if you’re in combat and your batteries bug out? Or the little computer inside decides to go BSOD? Yes, I know the batteries are tested and durable and what not. Same for any electronics inside. But that doesn’t mean it can’t happen. And then you have one trooper in your squad who is wielding a very big club. That’s just not worth it, IMO.

    The handgrenade was invented to deal with defilade targets. And given normal battlefield maneuvers you will eventually get into grenade range anyway, cause the goal is always to get the enemy out of his position and that is usually done with flanking and grenading.

    Or bring in a tank or an airstrike. Why airburst the target when you can blow up the entire line? Seriously. This thing, while looking and sounding quite awesome (again, under the right conditions), smells a bit like a “politically correct weapon” to make sure it only has a very small, local effect, on a single or small group of targets. But eh… it’s a war. You don’t win wars that way.

  • Rob

    The program will be reviewed, redefined and restructured – whatever it takes to keep the officers employed. Seems to me a beefed up M32 firing 40×53 rounds would be more handy, more effective and a hell of a lot cheaper.

  • Brad

    It seems to me that the double-barreled 40mm GL, if paired with a laser range finder, could accomplish 80% of the combat effectiveness of the XM25 at 8% of the cost.

  • charles222

    The Kit-Up article makes it pretty clear that this weapon is useful:

    Here’s how SFC Smith described one of the attacks on an OP where the XM-25 knocked out the bad guy:

    If you know anything about Afghanistan you know that the enemy likes to hide behind stuff and we really can’t shoot through boulders and stuff like that. On the first engagement we were engaged by PKM fire up on the OP. And what happens is you receive fire and you return fire. …What happened was when we initially received the PKM fire, you reengage with your 240s and your M2s and your M4s, and after we figured we really weren’t getting to the enemy enough, the Soldier was directed to fire with the XM-25 … and like I said before, the enemy likes to hide behind rocks and boulders and we really can’t shoot through stuff like that. After [the Soldier] engaged with four rounds of the XM-25, the firefight just ceased. We really couldn’t go out and do any BDA or anything like that. But you could tell that when the XM-25 brought the difference to whether they would stay there 15 or 20 minutes shooting, taking pot shots at us where the actual fight ended after using the XM-25. That was due to the ability of the XM-25 to shoot beyond targets and behind targets.

    So, you know, unless a platoon sergeant who is in no danger at all of losing his job unless the Department Of The Army decides he’s incompetent is lying, the rounds are indeed large enough and it’s an effective weapon. Seriously, the Bradley fires a more or less equivalent round-fused 25mm, although at a considerably higher velocity, which doesn’t strictly matter in regards to explosive rounds except for range-and nobody accuses the 25mm chain gun of being ineffective on personnel.

    The round counts are telling as well; the average is a single six-round magazine per fight. If the rounds were not having an effect, then they’d be firing more rounds.

    This thing is a sniper rifle that has rounds that explode and negate everything except overhead cover. It’s a serious fight-changer; time to start making more.

  • Martin (M)

    So, the perfect squad is now:
    1 MGM crew
    1 LGM crew
    1 DM
    1 Grenadier (XM25/M203)
    Some riflemen
    Interpreter
    Officer
    A FAC
    A local liaison
    Some indigenous porters
    A sherpa
    A field lawyer
    A crossing guard
    And probably some more people for other specialized tasks.

    What I’m trying to illustrate is the problem with such a specialized weapon, it only has one purpose. It’s not long range. It cannot clear rooms. It’s not for suppressive fire. It does one cool trick, and that trick only works if the enemy stays put. What the XM25 lacks is versatility, and that is what is going to relegate it to the curio shelf.

  • jdun1911

    You don’t need to be smart to know that if someone attacking you you should find something to hide behind, like a giant rock.

    This weapon is either going to be Squad or Platoon level. What will the Sargent or PL going to take out in order to use this? A rifleman, grenadier, SAW, etc?

    I would like to know how the guidance system work. Point and shoot? Or does it needs to stay in place for a few seconds so it automatically arm the grenade to where it will explode? Or do you need to set it manually.

    With body armor, helmet, and unloaded XM-25 you’re looking at around 45 to 50lbs from what I understand. So a soldier will have another 35-45 lbs to carry. Good luck at humping it.

  • L.

    So it’s basically a handheld mortar ?

  • West

    This looks like the perfect weapon for the kind of fight we are in right now.
    The 25mm is perfect for shooting through windows in an urban area where the 40mm might cause civilian casualties.

    I wonder how it will be deployed. I think they will need a dedicated grenadier who only operates that particular weapon due to weight.

  • Sian

    @jdun1911

    As I understand it, you manually set the standoff, from 0 to x meters behind the cover, (I would guess that you generally don’t need to fiddle with this setting) you lase the cover to get your range and fire over the top. Provided you don’t have to fiddle, should be doable in a couple of seconds.

  • subase

    Smaller explosive charge exploding behind and above cover, is closer to the head, where the ears, eyes and neck are. All critical vulnerable areas unarmored. May not kill people but will definitely render them combat ineffective, probably permanently. (concussion and blind or deaf)
    The weight savings in ammo are also a huge advantage.

    Also greatly reduces civilian casualties by engaging enemy troops directly instead of calling an airstrike leveling half a town.

    Once the tech is perfected the advantages in CQB would be awesome. Cover and corners will have a less than ten second lifespans.

  • Riceball

    I personally recommend reading the KitUp! article and the corresponding feedback for more details about the XM25 and its effectiveness. One thing addressed in the article is the cost of the rounds, while they do cost a lot that’s only because they aren’t in mass production yet and as a result are still being hand made. If/when the XM25 goes into full scale production so too will the rounds and the cost of the rounds will go down significantly when that happens. Battery life is being looked at as is, I believe, the minimum arming distance of the grenades; at the worst, even if you you’re engaging too close for the grenade to arm, you’re still shooting at someone with what’s effectively a 25mm rifle.

  • jdun1911

    This program was design to give engineers, managements, and officers jobs. They been trying to push this project since the 90s starting with the XM-8. It fail then it fail now. Same concept different name.

    It’s not effective. It if were there more than two dead bodies. It is heavy weapon with very limited capability and firepower. A normal grenadier will have more firepower and still be able to carry a M4 or M16. A squad or platoon is giving up a lot to carry one of this.

  • charles222

    A normal grenadier is also not going to have an effective range of beyond 350 meters for an area target, and even less for point targets. The M203 and it’s ilk (M320, et al) are also inherently less accurate than this is going to be because of their sights and the fact that you need to loft the round at anything over 100m away. Underbarrel grenade launchers have alot of weaknesses that this thing mostly solves.

    And yes, a 25mm round exploding over your head will kill you. Ask anyone who’s been shot at by a Bradley. 😉

    Jdun, you seem content to completely ignore anything that says you’re completely wrong (which you are, btw, just in case you’re confused) in the article, to include the testimony of a senior NCO, so yeah, whatev.

    The main issue will of course be who carries it and how it’s employed; I predict that it’ll wind up being incorporated into the standard fire team, as this is basically a designated marksman weapon with exploding rounds. In terrain like Afghanistan’s I can see it being a rotating weapon within the platoon; whichever element is designated as covering should probably have it, be that the weapons squad or one of the maneuver squads. If an infantry platoon is at it’s full strength, assigning it to the Javelin team is also a possibility, as Javelins are virtually never fielded in Afghanistan or Iraq.

    As for the weapon’s weight-there’s a number of weapons that weigh considerably more than this already fielded in infantry platoons, to include the SAW and the M240. The OICW’s weight was an issue because it was being conceived as a primary weapon; if it had been originally envisaged as a support weapon, to be used from primarily fixed positions in support of the main effort, I don’t think the weapon’s weight would have been nearly as great an issue, and the XM25 is in the same general weight class as most sniper rifles currently fielded. In other words, the weight isn’t much of an issue. This isn’t a room-clearing weapon and isn’t intended to be; it’s a support weapon to be used on targets that the standard maneuver-squad elements can’t tackle.

  • subase

    It is also part of a larger weapon system not separate ones. So their are weight savings. The optic can double as a thermal scope and as a ballistic calculator for 5.56 giving the user DMR capability, as well as other features no doubt, driving further optic advances.

    If 40mm explosive grenades aren’t used in combat, which I imagine is often (due to the distances involved , speed or other considerations), they are a dead weight. So I imagine this will raise the use of explosives exponentially, making it second nature in infantry combat. Starting to feel sorry for the enemy.

    The real crux is the software and optic tech. I can certainly imagine it becoming incredibly intuitive, making the guy with the XM25 the shooter with the longest range, effectiveness and speed. Hard to believe, but the explosive flexible nature of the weapon will justify giving the guy a fancy optic that is all that.

  • subase

    And then we aren’t even considering the possibility of different ammo types. Teargas, flashbang, armor penetrating and so on.

  • skslover

    Give the Designated man a PDW like an HK, or something like it.. then you’ve got something… should his XM25 break (unlikely, unless it takes a round) he’s got something to still fight with.

  • Some Guy

    I can’t believe all the negative reviews everyone is giving this weapon.

    First of all, the issue with power is moot. Roughly Half of the 40mm grenade’s explosive power, or any grenade, is directed downward, as in into the ground, and absorbed by something other than the enemy. Not only this, but, most grenades, and pretty much everything else, that impact the ground, create a crater, and as a result a conical shaped upward blast. The “shooting the ground” in an attempt to kill the enemy soldier is a ridiculous notion, but when using an explosive what happens is that most the explosive material and fragment is directed upwards. In small scale it doesn’t reduce the effect of the grenade visibly, but when you look at something like say, an atom bomb, the obvious issue of the blast “going straight up” is apparent, and isn’t any different when comparing an air burst grenade and a 40mm grenade. The 25mm grenade is, at most, 2.56 times smaller, and because it detonates in mid air and uses more powerful explosives (such as thermobaric explosives), it’s just as effective and powerful, if not more effective and powerful than the 40mm grenade at killing.

    Any issue with power is also moot as, even if it is less powerful (which it’s not) because you have more rounds and their lighter weight and smaller, the volume of firepower would essentially “equal” out any power difference. Not to mention that, you have 6 round per magazine, compared to 1 with the M203, meaning that the weapon does to standard 40mm grenade launchers what the M1 garand did to Bolt action rifles.

    It has an effective range of 500 meters, compared to 150 with a 40mm grenade. The 40mm grenade is fired at roughly 76 m/s from a 12 inch barrel, that is roughly the speed of a medium powered arrow. The maximum range, not the maximum effective range, that is maximum range that this grenade will physically go, on a flat surface, is roughly 400 meters. Not that it’s accurate at those ranges. Were as, the XM25 has a maximum range of 1000 yards, in terms of effectiveness.

    That’s literally like comparing the range of a medium grade bow and arrow to a sniper rifle.

    The issue with “Up and over” weapons is that, they require both an extreme and innate understanding of angles and velocities. For you to hit a target behind something, effectively, you need to have both the right angle, and the right velocity. Bullets, believe it or not, have a curved trajectory, like all ballistic trajectories. Yet, at close range, they are expected to shoot relatively “straight”, that is be point and shoot. The same concept is true with grenades, except that it’s the opposite, in that it’s designed to shoot at a curved trajectory.

    The problem is, that all ballistic trajectories are ultimately determined by their velocity. The faster something goes, usually, the farther it will travel. This is because all things fall to earth at the same speed, that is 9.81 m/s^2, which is why if you drop a bullet and fire a bullet out of a gun from the same height and at the same time, both will reach the ground at roughly the same time.

    What this means is that, in order for you to have an effective “up and over” weapon at close ranges, you have to sacrifice the weapons capabilities at farther ranges. And in order to have better up and over capabilities at farther ranges, you have to sacrifice the ability at close ranges. So, if you want a grenade, or say a mortar, to go over a target and land on top of it, thus getting behind a target and doing the most amount of damage possible, you have to perfectly calculate the velocity and angle.

    That means that, the weapon has to be tailored made for each situation. The velocity of a 60mm mortar, compared to a 120mm mortar is such that, while the 120mm mortar is effective at much longer ranges, it is basically ineffective at short ranges, and completely ineffective below 200 meters. Meaning that, even when the “big guns” are moved into place, much smaller mortars are still required to achieve better short range goals. Essentially, you’re target and you’re weapon have to be between the perfect “niche” range, ultimately limiting most curved trajectory rounds.

    The 25mm round explodes in mid air, at choice by the unit. That means that, the round can shoot out relatively straight, full-filling a much larger “niche range”, yet still move over obstacles and preform the same job that’s required.

    It’s basically like a sniper rifle grenade launcher, in the idea that you can shoot the weapon out into an area, with extreme accuracy at both short and far ranges, and wipe out the entire unit. The difference is that, the weapon has a much larger area of effect, and is much more powerful, being capable of blowing up cars and small vehicles along with decimating entire 10 meter diameter circles.

    Let’s just say that, for whatever reason, the XM25’s power was half that of the 40mm grenade. That would still be a 2.5 meter radius, or roughly 8.2 feet. For all you nublets that have trouble imagining what this means, go and stand in your kitchen and count the tiles- they are usually around 12 inches, or 1 foot. Count out 8 tiles, and now stand that many tiles away, possibly marking the spot if you can’t remember where it is. That is the range that the XM25 will kill you. Not injure, not main, not make you a causality, but literally kill you, as 99.99% of people have their organs liquefied at that range from raw over pressurization.

    The range is more like 5 meters, or 16.4 feet. So, now, count out 16 feet in the other direction, using you’re kitchen tiles if you can, or a ruler. If the XM25 explodes and it’s that distance away from, whether you’re laying on the ground (there is no conic shape of the crater to deflect the blast upwards), standing up straight or covering you’re head, 99.99% of the time you will die. The causality radius is roughly 15 meters, or a circle of 30 meters, meaning that there is a 100 foot diameter circle in which people will most likely be injured. There is a 30 foot diameter circle in which almost everyone will die. Imagine, everyone with 15 feet of you, dieing; and you as well. Imagine the kind of power that can put out.

    And now imagine that it has a range of 1000 yards and can be shot out with the accuracy of a standard rifle, as well as can be fired in a “point and shoot” scenario, rather than requiring the user to try to estimate the perfect range with the perfect niche weapon that they probably don’t even have. Now imagine the ability to shoot six of these out in roughly 2-3 seconds.

    It is absolutely devastating.

  • A few comments:

    The advanced airburst technology and high-performance explosive are already offered in 40mm LV grenade systems.

    Even without the sophisticated (and very expensive) timed airburst facility, not all 40mm grenades explode on the ground. There are “jump” grenades on the market in which a small nose charge ignites on impact with the ground, blowing the grenade up in the air where it explodes at around 2 metres height. Not as good, but a small fraction of the cost.

    Several manufacturers offer 40mm MV or ER grenades which are intended for use in LV grenade launchers but extend the maximum range to 600-800m.

    The USMC already has in service a six-shot revolver 40mm grenade launcher which can fire MV grenades if required (the M32).

    The XM25 grenades weigh about 60% of the lightest 40mm LV grenades, and about 45% of the heaviest MV ones.

    40mm GLs have the advantage of being able to fire a very wide range of different munitions, including paracute flares and even video recce cameras.

    I have never said that I thought the XM25 is a bad idea, just that I’ll reserve judgement until more independent reports are available. So far, no confirmed deaths have resulted from the 55 rounds fired. So I’ll wait and see. Meanwhile, the 40mm has a lot of life left in it yet. Even with timed airburst technology it’s inferior to the XM25 in some respects (even the MV rounds have a more curved trajectory and longer flight time), superior in others (bigger bang, more versatile). Time will tell.

  • Some Guy

    The air burst 40mm grenades are basically timer set, that is you set the timer with you’re hand. You don’t press a button on you’re weapon and in a few short second have the grenade explode over the enemy 500 yards away.

    Not to mention that, the range for those 40mm grenades is still less. As far as the 800 meter maximum range grenades go, they have around 4 times the recoil. Recoil of 40mm grenade is already relatively high anyways, and to double the distance (I.E. double the velocity) you have to quadruple the energy, thus quadrupling the recoil. Of course, there are all kinds of ways that the long range 40mm grenade could gain extra distance other than just raw powder (rockets, fins, more aerodynamic shape etc.) but the recoil is going to be much larger.

    Not that recoil isn’t controllable, it’s just a significant factor when launching something as large as a grenade. The 40mm grenade, can, as well, be more powerful than the 25mm grenade if used properly, there is no doubt about that; it’s at least 2.56 times larger.

    But, the higher the velocity the grenade, the less “Up and over” it can be, therefore limiting it’s “niche range”, as previously posted.

    Not to say that the 25mm grenade is better than 40mm grenades, or any other way around. I’m a huge fan of most 40mm grenade launchers, and, there are currently ones, like the 3GL, that fire up to 3 grenade launchers, semi-automatically. I think that there great as under slung weapons, as, you basically give a rifleman the ability to take out an entire enemy squad or a small tank. For not but, an extra 3-4 pounds.

    The 25mm grenade simply does something that the 40mm grenade, and mortars, howitzer tanks, and pretty much everything else in warfare up until this point couldn’t do. Shoot behind targets, from the front.

    As far as counting the kills are concerned…

    That’s a little morbid. Why are you counting kills? Their not beans, their people. And given that it’s not going to be used as much as most other weapons, and that the “kills” aren’t going to be recorded like it’s some kind of video game… I don’t think that it matters.

  • @Some Guy:

    “The air burst 40mm grenades are basically timer set, that is you set the timer with you’re hand. You don’t press a button on you’re weapon and in a few short second have the grenade explode over the enemy 500 yards away.”

    Not true. STK make the 40mm LV S403 ABM (Air Burst Munition) offered together with an FCS which can be bolted on to any launcher, which incorporates a laser rangefinder and a ballistic computer linked to a red dot sight and an electronic fuze setter. The appropriate time for detonation is set by radio signal immediately after the grenade has left the muzzle. This provides the same functionality as the XM25.

    IMI have developed the MPRS (MultiPurpose Rifle System) which incorporates a 40mm LV UGL with a similar FCS linked to an electronic fuze-setter in the base, for use with a specially-designed airburst grenade.

    Arcus are also offering the AR 496 40mm LV programmable air-burst grenade, which also requires a special UGL with a fuze-setter. All of these work in a similar way to the XM25.

    None of this should be a surprise. Any technology which can be packaged into a 25mm grenade can easily fit into a 40mm one, so the bigger grenade can always be updated to match anything that the 25mm can do.

    Recoil is not so different as you suppose since although the 40mm MV grenades weigh about twice as much as the 25mm, their muzzle velocity is only about half as much (90-120 m/s compared with 210 m/s) which leaves the recoil impulse (and therefore gun recoil energy) in the same ballpark.

    One advantage of the 25mm, apart from the shorter flight time and flatter trajectory, is that the ammo weighs only half as much. Whether the reduction in blast/fragmentation effect is an acceptable price to pay for this remains to be seen.

    “As far as counting the kills are concerned… That’s a little morbid. Why are you counting kills?”

    I suggest you look at your last post. You were the one who said:

    “That is the range that the XM25 will kill you. Not injure, not main, not make you a causality, but literally kill you, as 99.99% of people have their organs liquefied at that range from raw over pressurization….The causality radius is roughly 15 meters, or a circle of 30 meters, meaning that there is a 100 foot diameter circle in which people will most likely be injured. There is a 30 foot diameter circle in which almost everyone will die. Imagine, everyone with 15 feet of you, dieing; and you as well.”

    So who’s being morbid? I was merely pointing out that despite the awesome lethality which you attribute to this grenade, no-one has been confirmed killed by it in 55 warshots.

  • Tony, fixed.

  • A new press release about the IMI MPRS from here: http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/122781/israel-military-industries%E2%80%99-products-at-ausa-winter.html

    “The integrated Multi Purpose Rifle System is designed to provide infantry warriors increased lethality and target engagement capabilities using programmable HE Air-Burst munitions. The MPRS displays a corrected aiming point for the proper elevation necessary for an accurate fire, and automatically sets the time delay fuse in the grenade to Air-Burst just before impact and at a preset altitude over the target, creating maximum lethality. In Time Delayed mode, the fuze can also be set to explode at a preset delay after an impact, enabling effective suppression of targets behind defilade or inside buildings. MPRS can be used on a variety of assault weapons carrying a 40 mm grenade launcher, including the M16/M4; AK47 Kalashnikov and the Tavor TAR-21, or on the M32 MGL (Multiple Grenade Launcher).”

  • Some Guy

    I was talking about recoil for the long range 40mm grenade. It’s about 3-4 times as much as a standard 40mm grenade, even with the extra aerodynamic features and lightweight feature of the long range grenades. The recoil is around 60 joules for a 40mm x 51mm grenade, which is about 4 times as much as an M1 garand, but except able.

    Another issue was that the 40mm x 51mm could potentially damage the lighter equipment (which can’t handle the recoil from the more powerful grenade, much like firing a rifle round through a pistol, or a .50 caliber round through an assault rifle), although the much larger case reduces the pressure, making it acceptable for standard 40mm grenade systems.

    Point and case, 40mm x 53mm long range grenades designed for fire from automatic grenade launchers have a range of about 2000 meters, or 5 times that than a standard 40mm x 46mm grenade. Even though the physical grenade of the 40mm grenade of the 40 x 53mm grenade cartridge is around the same size as the 40mm x 46mm grenade, it has around 20 times the recoil, which is why we don’t fire this 2000 meter range grenade out of a standard 40mm grenade launcher, despite being relatively light weight and around the same size (smoke grenades from the 40mm x 46mm are around the same size).

    The 40mm grenade isn’t going away, but, the 25mm grenade does something that the 40mm grenade was never designed to do. And it does a better job at it.

    As far as the kills are concerned, I don’t see a single listing for 40mm grenade kills and, most kills do not result in “confirmed” kills, because battle field situations don’t allow you to confirm, but rather to run away. Again, counting confirmed kills is rather morbid, and this isn’t a video game which has an omnipresent feature recording all of it.

    There is only 1 confirmed kill per every 50,000 M16 rounds fired, so, if this weapon has a 1/60 kill record, or even a 1/100 kill record, or even 1/1000 kill record, it wouldn’t be that unexpected.

  • @Someguy,

    I have commented before that you have a habit of trying to change the subject when you’re proven wrong, and you’re doing it again.

    I have not been talking about using the MK19’s 40×53 high-velocity (240 m/s) grenades in a shoulder-fired launcher – that’s a red herring. I have – very clearly – been talking about the medium-velocity or extended range 40mm grenades which (as I have spelled out) increase the muzzle velocity from 76 m/s to 90-120 m/s and increase the maximum range from 400 to 600-800 metres. These developed a recoil impulse in the same ballpark as the 25×39 rounds used in the XM25.

    You also seem to be backpedalling frantically on your claims about the lethality of the XM25: “The causality radius is roughly 15 meters, or a circle of 30 meters, meaning that there is a 100 foot diameter circle in which people will most likely be injured. There is a 30 foot diameter circle in which almost everyone will die. Imagine, everyone with 15 feet of you, dieing; and you as well.” suddenly becomes: “if this weapon has a 1/60 kill record, or even a 1/100 kill record, or even 1/1000 kill record, it wouldn’t be that unexpected.”

    However, I know from past experience that you never admit your mistakes, you merely keep on trying to change the terms of the argument, so I won’t be reading or replying to any more posts on this thread – it would be a waste of my time.

  • Some Guy

    What the heck are you talking about?

    Besides, to double the range, you need to double the velocity. Although, it is lighter weight, so it is 90-120 m/s.

    You obviously have no idea what an EXAMPLE is. It’s called, an Analogy? KK, the 40mm x 53mm has 5 times the range but over 20 times the recoil, despite being the same size. The 40mm x 51mm grenade has 3-4 times the recoil despite being the same size, which IS a huge deal.

    That was my point, that increased velocity always exponentially increases energy. Energy = 1/2 MV^2, meaning that to double the velocity, you have to quadruple the energy. To double the range, you have to double the velocity, which means you need to subsequently quadruple the energy, or quadruple the recoil. To quadruple the range, you need 16 times the energy, or, 16 times the amount of recoil. 5 times the range is roughly 20-24 times the recoil for something of the same size, it was simple math with a comparison so you could tell the difference. Obviously, examples, analogy, and math are too complex for you, seeing as how you referenced an obvious misunderstanding of my posts in the past.

    It didn’t suddenly become: “if this weapon has a 1/60 kill record, or even a 1/100 kill record, or even 1/1000 kill record, it wouldn’t be that unexpected.”, it was like that the whole time.

    I’m talking about CONFIRMED kills.

    An “Ace” has 5 confirmed kills or more.

    Despite what you may think, people are not beans or AI programs. Not EVERYBODY, that is a human being, can have a confirmed kill, or even a kill, because if everyone got kills, then there would be no people. It is impossible for everyone on the planet to have a kill, but if half the people on this planet had a kill, then the population would obviously be cut in half. As such, most people do not kill other people. And “confirming” a kill is obviously a lot harder than you think.

  • Some Guy

    …you obviously have no idea what I’m talking about.

    I’ll try to make things as simple as I possibly can, sense you have a problem understanding me, and have made references to this in the past, kay?

    1). An unconfirmed kill means that the body was not recovered and that the cause of death was not linked to the weapon used by any particular soldier.

    A confirmed kill means that someone actually saw the body after the fact, and witnessed the kill. A confirmed kill means that, not only did someone else see and can verify that you killed another person, but that the body was recovered after the fact, and that the medical examiner found the cause of death to be a result of a particular weapon that was used to kill the target, and that this weapon can be confirmed by a trustworthy third party.

    In case you didn’t know, most medical personnel are not going to be wasting time on these kind of things, with all the, you know, saving lives and whatnot, and recovering bodies to determine their cause of death is relatively difficult to do.

    If we have military funerals for the majority of our soldiers, that means that we did not indeed allow the enemy to recover the body, which means that technically our enemies will not being getting confirmed kills for those kills (unless we got the body from them after the fact).

    This is true for both sides, as “kills” are usually dragged away to be buried, and the bodies are never recovered.

    I.E., a CONFIRMED kill is vastly different from a kill.

    If you actually believe that a 25mm grenade exploding 3 feet away from you, or 6 feet, or even 15 feet, will not kill you, nothing I can say on this firearm blog will be able to teach you about them.

    2.) The reference to the 40mm x 53mm grenade was as such so that you could see the issues with the 40mm x 51mm grenade. Energy = 1/2 (mass)(velocity)^2, or mass x velocity(squared). That means that, doubling the velocity quadruples the energy, or in essence, in order to double the velocity, you need to quadruple the energy. In order to double the range of something, you need to double the velocity, or you need to cut the mass of the object by 3/4’s of it’s original mass. So, to double the range, you need either cut back on the mass, or quadruple the energy.

    In the case of a 40mm grenade being of equal power, you need to keep the mass the same. So, the velocity must doubled, so, the energy must be quadrupled.

    Now, the energy being quadrupled for the 800 meter grenade would create too much recoil, so the grenade was lightened (although more powerful explosives are used, compensating for this, and lighter weight materials are used instead of steel, etc.), bumping the recoil from quadruple the amount to only around 3 times the amount. It’s still about 60 joules of recoil.

    My reference to the 2000 meter grenade was such that, to double the range you need to double the velocity, and therefore quadruple the energy, but to quadruple the range, or give it a range of 1600 meters, you need 16 times the energy. Despite 40mm x 53mm grenades being relatively the same size as the 40mm x 46mm grenades, the point was that the recoil is the limiting factor.

    The same problem with the 800 meter grenade, although this is less of a problem, obviously because it has less recoil.

    3). When I referenced the 40mm x 53mm grenade, as I did now, it was merely an EXAMPLE. It is expressing how even in similar weight and cartridge size, the recoil is the key determine factor limiting this rounds use.

    As with the 800 meter round, which has only recently had it’s recoil reduced to tolerable levels. In the future, 2000 meter grenades might have their recoil reduced to tolerable levels with new technology, but that is besides the point.

    The point is the 800 meter grenade still has enormous levels of recoil, when compared to 40mm x 46mm grenades, and of course the 25mm grenade. As was the point of that whole thing about it.

    4). Let’s just say that for the sake of argument, 25mm x 40mm grenades were 1/3 the strength of 40mm grenades, and also 1/3 the weight (it’s actually more like 1/2.56, but this is for ease of calculation). Let’s just say that, 40mm grenades could potentially “kill” 6 people.

    That would mean that, 25mm grenades could only “kill” 2 people. So the kill potential of the 40mm grenade is much higher than the kill potential of the 25mm grenade, by a factor of three. That means that the 40mm grenade is more powerful.

    However, let’s say that there was a single target. That is, one person. We need to shoot him with an airburst grenade, or else him with an RPG, or rocket propelled grenade, will wipe us all out. So, we shoot him with our airburst grenade.

    We basically waste the kill potential of the 40mm grenade with a 5 to 1 factor, were as we only waste the kill potential of the 25mm grenade for a 1 to 1 factor. Let’s say that, we need to kill three single individuals. Three guys with an RPG otherwise would have wiped us out.

    So, we would waste the equivalent of 15 potential “kills” with the 40mm grenade, but only 3 with the 25mm grenades. That means that, the full potential, or more potential, of the 40mm grenade isn’t being utilized.

    However, with the 25mm grenade, because less potential was wasted, which can cause more damage over-all. Because it’s 1/3 the weight, we can carry three times as much. So, let’s say that 6 people need to be killed. Yes, the 25mm requires 3 times the amount of grenades, but this is the same weight as 1 40mm grenade.

    While 3 25mm grenades can full-fill the job of one 40mm grenade, one 40mm grenade cannot full-fill the job of one 25mm grenade. Making the 25mm grenade potentially more cost effective in terms of weight.

    It’s the same reason we use 10 pounds, or 300 rounds of assault rifle ammunition, instead of just handing everyone one 10 pound C-4 satchel charge. We spread the damage out over a larger unit of space and time, allowing us to use more energy or, damage, on multiple targets, rather than just one.

  • jimmy123

    the xm25 doesnt kill, its a non lethal weapon.

  • jimmy123

    the xm25 doesnt kill, its a non lethal weapon. have any of you heard of the gunfire from PKM’s? they fired it into a building (direct hit) and went to the locations afterwards. the taliban had fled and dropped one of their weapons.

  • jimmy123

    Have any of you heard of the gunfire from PKM’s? they fired it into a building (direct hit) and went to the locations afterwards. the taliban had fled and dropped one of their weapons.

  • mary ross

    do you think this weapon will is better that the M203?