Taliban upgrading to the AK-74?!?!
With the poor condition that captured AK-47s are found, you could be forgiven for thinking the Afghans do not pay much attention to their rifles. Apparently they are very much into the “latest” gear and AK-74 are very much in demand, despite that they cost 2.5x as much as a Chinese AK-47 clone. The Guardian reports:
“The fortunes are to be made in weapons,” he said. “Prices are doing very well. If you bring in $20,000-worth over a month, you can make a profit of $5,000.”
Kalashnikovs, I presumed.
“No, Kalashnikovs are very cheap. They cost only $400. Sometimes the Tajiks buy them from us and we get them from the Chinese. But it’s the Kalakov everyone wants.” Kalakov is the Afghan name for a new model of Kalashnikov that is lighter and uses smaller bullets.
They seem to be under the impression that the 5.42×39mm round has some magical armor piercing capability! While the bullet the Russian currently use has improved penetration, compared to the original, I doubt it is any better than the 5.56mm NATO. I very much doubt that the Taliban are getting recently manufactured ammunition or the AP version of the 5.45mm.
“The Taliban like it because it pierces body armour.” Hekmat tapped at his chest to demonstrate and showed me a small bullet. “They cost $700 in Dushanbe and we sell them for $1,100. There is an extra charge of $150 if you want the weapons delivered in the south.”
This is good news for the coalition forces, better that they spend their money on weapons that they think will give them armor piercing capabilities, rather than weapons that could do real damage. I hope they do not catch on that the Dragunov SVD rifles they seem to love are not near accurate enough to be considered a real sniper rifle, nor can the 20 year old surplus Chinese 7.62×54mm be considered an accurate round for a sniper.
Hat Tip: Danger Room
UPDATE: I was emailed to say that vets report that AK-74 are not uncommon in Afghanistan. The Guardian’s source is a random smuggler that a reporter happened to talk to. I think this is pretty much a non-story.
The NORINCO Kalashnikovs have a reputation for poor quality and poor accuracy dispersion.
A switch in assault rifle choice could still mean an improvement even though the basic design isn’t much of an improvement.
I know we consider the Taliban to be just a bunch of goat herders running around screaming ‘Allah’! But every battle report I’ve seen from Afghanistan rates them as stalwart, resouceful and stubborn fighters.
All of the Coalition Forces are wearing body armor, so it would stand to reason after 5+ years of heavy conflict, even the ‘backwards’ Taliban would cotton on to buying some AP rounds. It doesn’t take a huge stretch of the imagination to believe they are getting their hands on such ammunition.
After all, the previous Mujahadeen were toting state of the art Stinger Missile systems and they cost a lot more and were harder to get hold off then a few thousand AP rounds.
Nonetheless, however they upgrade on a squad level, it doesn’t overally worry me. The continuing threat from IEDs is still the biggest killer of our troops over there.
I just wish our boys and girls weren’t over there propping up a corrupt government. But that is a different argument altogether.
SpudGun, they were given stinger missiles by the CIA, they did not buy them.
AP ammo is a niche round and expensive. It would be produced in limited quantities by a maybe one or a very small number of factories. Some of the US AP rounds are still classified.
Steve, I know they were given Stinger Missiles by the CIA and didn’t walk into Best Buy and slap their Discover card on the counter
But the fact of the matter is that they did get them.
As for AK-74 clones and AP ammo, it’s probably being manufactured from scratch within Pakistan itself. You’d be amazed at the ‘cloning’ that goes on with weaponary and ammuntion in that part of the world.
The Taliban are earning major bucks from the international drugs trade, so could easily pay over the odds for AP rounds from any number of breakaway old Soviet republics. If not, they could easily afford to set up their own arms factories within Pakistan.
Even if what I’ve stated above turns out to be some sort of fantasy meandering, the real fact of the matter is that the Taliban are changing weaponry for a reason. And my bet is that has more to do with battlefield practicality then with mere rumour that the AK-74 is superior to an AK-47 in armor penetration.
In short, we should be suspicious of this change and assess the new threat rather then dismiss it out of hand as ‘those wacky Taliban and their crazy gun fads’.
The one “sniper” that took a pot shot at me over there missed by about 50 yards… no idea what he was shooting with though, but I can tell you they can’t make an 800+ yard shot.
According to Wikipedia on the russian 5.45mm:
“Early ballistics tests done demonstrated a pronounced tumbling effect with high speed cameras.[2] Some Western authorities believed this bullet was designed to tumble in flesh to increase wounding potential. At the time, it was believed that yawing and cavitation of projectiles was primarily responsible for tissue damage. Martin Fackler conducted a study using live pigs and ballistic gelatin demonstrating that the 5.45 mm round does not reliably fragment or cause unusual amounts of tissue disruption. [3] Most organs and tissue were too flexible to be severely damaged by the temporary cavity effect caused by yaw and cavitation of a projectile. With the 5.45 mm bullet, tumbling produced a temporary cavity twice, at depths of 100 and 400 mm. This is comparable to modern 7.62×39mm ammunition and to (non-fragmenting) 5.56 mm ammunition. The average width of a human torso is 400 mm.”
So, if the 5.56mm lacks “stopping power” against the Talibans in those long distances of Afghanistan, the russian equivalent will be even worse against big healthy americans with body armor.
What’s wrong with the Taliban’s Dragunovs? It’s old technology that’s not in the league of our new stuff, but it’s pretty damn effective if its sighted right and used by someone who knows what he’s doing. Are theirs just superannuated and improperly maintained? Is the ammo crappy? Are the shooters bad? (Because the Pashtun love to shoot and are good at it…or at least they used to.)
Just curious.
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/precision-voting.htm
A photojournalist’s experience in Afghanistan being embedded with the British forces. I found it very interesting.
The 5.45mm round when first used in Afghanistan used a bullet that may have been illegal with regard to the Hague Conventions and is no longer used. It was designed to tumble when it hit its target. From what I’ve heard, the Afghan fighters back then feared that round for the damage it would do, maybe the memory of that round is why they want AKs chambered in 5.45×39mm.
I am not sure if the reporting is accurate or not. To me it seems piss poor at best.
My understanding that Stinger missiles can’t target Nato vehicles with friends or foe device.
The 7.62×54R is a very good round. It’s over 100 years old and still in use. It is an accurate and hard hitting round. It is the prefer round for non-western marksmen going back to its inception. It has proven itself as an outstanding caliber.
In capable hands the Dragunov can score hits at 600+ yards. Don’t discount it.
The 5.45×39 AP or 7.62×54R AP will not penetrate US ceramic body armor. Not in the first hit anyway. The 5.45×39 is an accurate round compare to 7.62×39.
NORINCO makes good AK and 1911.
Dragunov 7.62×54R AP round Vs. Pfc. Stephen Tschiderer’s ceramic body armor, Iraq.
http://rpginn.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=521&Itemid=39
The 5.45×39 is not illegal. The Hague Conventions deals with bullet expansion not tumble or fragmentation. Most countries didn’t sign off on it and those that did don’t exist anymore.
The USA did not sign off.
Hague Convention should be ignored anyway. It should be nothing more than a historical curiosity.
Steve, why do you say that?
If expanding bullets were heinous then why would many locals and even entire countries ban using noexpanding ammo on deer. Hague was created in the late 1800s when the technology was new and frightening. Expanding bullets produce cleaner kills and reduce the possibility of overpenetration.
Junkball, pretty much what komrad said. It is a convention from the 19th century. War has changed since then. Police use expanding bullets on their fellow citizens and hunters on game … why is it do bad that soldiers use them on the enemy?
Jdun1911,
While you’re correct that russian 5.45 generally won’t ESAPI plate body armor, is is still pretty effective at penetrating soft kevlar. One of the fundamental differences between Iraq and Afghanistan is that in Iraq, most foot patrols were of very limited duration and are primarily vehicle bourn. In A-stan, patrols are far longer, over worse terrain, and troops are (even still) less likely to encounter IEDs. As a result, many units have adapted by dramatically reducing the standard armor compared to an Iraq load out. Hence, even the 5.45 can be effective.
That said, the original article from the Guardian involves an entire one source. I wouldn’t think that the AK-74 is all that new of a trend in AfPak, but the story is simply a result of one guy surprised to learn that the Soviets upgraded the AK 30 years ago.
Michael
“Apparently they are very much into the “latest” gear” in that case all the West has to do is persuade the Taliban terrorists that Airsoft is the latest and greatest gear to have.
The kevlar portions of body armour in Iraq could never stop the 5.45, 5.62 and much less the 7.62mm round. Only the ceramic plates could stop those rounds, being conveniently rated for the 7.62mm round. The kevlar armour is mainly for protection from shrapnel from IEDs, since that is not as a serious of a problem in Afghanistan, the can reduce their armour. Which is great cause they’ll be doing alot more foot patrols.
As for AK74, it will make the taliban able to carry more ammo, probably increase their accuracy and increase their speed for followup shots. All of which is bad news for our soldiers.
I also have no doubt they are outfitting themselvs with quality optic binoculars and longer range communication equipment. Increasing their effectiveness greatly.
AK-74 penetration is superior due to steel core.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4d6_1191058315
I can assure you that our boys in Afghanistan are wearing ceramic armor in patrol. They are carrying well over 80 lbs on their back in some cases.
Considering the only real difference seperating soldiers from the taliban now, is 2 plates of ceramic armour and better shooting skill, that sucks. Airstrikes are becoming more and more discouraged due to civilian casualties and its practically a mano a mano fight out there.
@Vitor:
“So, if the 5.56mm lacks “stopping power” against the Talibans in those long distances of Afghanistan, the russian equivalent will be even worse against big healthy americans …”
A bigger guy being hit means that the tumbling has greater effect. The tumbling isn’t instant, so it does often begin too late (deep) as to do much damage to a skinny guy.
That’s neat rootman. That Japanese made their version of the box of truth with a better production value.
You can’t compare steel core to lead core bullets. Steel core bullets will penetrate better then lead bullets. That is a given. A fair comparison would be steel core for both cartridge.
The 5.56 does come in steel core, m855 (green tip)/ss-109.
The Russian made AK’s are much better made than the chinese variants, the metal used is also better quality. Most of the AK’s and SVD’s in Afghanistan have now been there since the mid 70’s so they have usualy had over 30 years of abuse, although they will work without ever being cleaned the accuracy is effected.
The 5.56X45 NATO carrys around 250ftlb more muzzle energy than the 5.45X39, although the 5.56 does not penetrate anything well it tumbles almost on impact, the 5.45 was designed to penetrate more than the 5.56 and still tumble after impact, where as the 7.62X39 begins to tumble after leaving what would be a human sized target.
And as for the SVD using Russian made 7N14 ammo in the hands of a well trained sniper, new and clean, they will shoot 1MOA, and will easily hit human targets at 800m, remember the taliban are using a poorly maintained SVD that may have not been cleaned for decades, with scopes that have been abused and using general purpose 7.62X54R ammo intended for light machineguns.