U.S. Army Awards Winchester $20 Million Series of Next Generation Squad Weapons Contracts

@Jeff Hewitt Even some outside-US sources seem to be hedging bets now, with Australia's Thales developing a 6.8 version of the F88/F90 around the same requirements the US had for the NGSW. Australia generally has good knowledge of US military projects, with substantial intelligence sharing going on. Haven't seen anyone else follow suit though, not that it'd be impossible to retrofit existing battle rifle designs. Might also be a problem if someone like HK announces new 6.8 guns, where NATO partners would immediately stop buying existing HK 7.62 or 5.56 designs, expecting NATO adoption of the new cartridge.

Giga-AUG is sex btw.
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@Rijoenpial It’s funny how people were so reluctant to accept the AR platform when it was first introduced, and now people are reluctant to let it go.

It’s almost like we’re back in the 1960’s, where the Sig Spear is the “trusty” M14 design based on the Garand and the RM277 bullpup is the innovative AR-15 that people are “sure” will fail.

@Rijoenpial Sorry, but it's entirely unclear what you're trying to say. There are only three contenders left. Textron is out and TV has an experimental bullpup platform that no military will adopt in 2022, no belt gun and just few months experience in making guns... GD and TV couldn't even fully design and make the gun by themselves and needed help from Beretta... Meanwhile, Sig have hundreds of thousands of weapons in actual daily military usage around the world from the 320 to the MCX, and their new NGSW submissions looks great. Who do you think a logical person you choose?

@HemingwaysBeard Yes, so innovative, that no western military has adopted a new bullpup since the Israelis 20 years ago, and even they regretted it and stopped issuing it mid-way... What's innovative about a non-modular non-proven bullpup platform?

@Vet >What's innovative about a non-modular non-proven bullpup platform

Every entry here is equally non-modular and non-proven. All the entries were designed from the ground up around new higher pressure ammo that was designed for this program.

@Vet >Sig have hundreds of thousands of weapons in actual daily military usage
around the world from the 320 to the MCX

The only weapon Sig has ever created that received mass adoption is the P320 by the US military and even that was highly controversial, and the only "units" who ever adopted the MCX are literal who police units in Europe who are certainly not using the MCX in daily usage -

>and their new NGSW submissions looks great.

this is what Sig fans absolutely, UNIRONICALLY, believe

@Vet It is a recoil operated bullpup that’s been designed with a permanently attached Delta P suppressor, and comes with an option for an integrated bipod in the handguard. Hard to argue there are no innovative designs there. Especially compared to the Sig Spear which is just a piston AR that will have to operate with crazy high pressures to achieve the same ballistic performance as the RM277.

Velocity is the main name of the game for body armor penetration. So I wouldn’t be surprised if bullpup designs start making a comeback. Especially now that more organizations are looking to use suppressors and realizing that they make their carbines as long as their DMRs.

Also, the RM277 also comes in two different barrel lengths. One to serve as a carbine, the other as an automatic rifle. That fact shows that the design can be changed up to accommodate different barrel lengths. So I’m not sure what modularity you’re looking for, other than allowing the user to change the barrel length. A feature that is not useful for average soldiers to have.

And of course the rifle is designed around a new round that uses polymer cases, which reduce weight and keeps the chamber temperature down.

Polymer cased ammo can of course be used in other guns. But the RM277 is designed specifically for this new 6.8 variant.

(PS, the Australians procured the F90 in 2015)

@Jake That is actually entirely incorrect. Firstly, the only high-pressure ammo here is Sig. TV is standard pressure; secondly, Sig Spear is based on the very well proven MCX; thirdly, the Sig Spear is highly modular, you can change stocks, handguards and barrels within seconds. None of which you can do with the TV gun. Also, like all bullpup you're stuck with fixed OAL.

@Vet Who in the military is repeatedly changing their barrel lengths? Even special ops just use different uppers or whole other guns.

I’ll give you the fact that you can’t change the stock on the bullpup. However, there are always tradeoffs in design features. I think sacrificing stock customization for better weight distribution/balance, better ballistic performance, lighter weight cartridges, better barrel life, and lower recoil is worth it.

@HemingwaysBeard F90 is an updated version of the AUG, not an entirely new rifle adopted, and the Aussie SF are all 100% on AR. The Brits even literally said "no bullpup" in their recent SF weapon RFP...

The RM277 is a compromise born from contract and engineering constraints. TV wanted in the NGSW and to benefit from the publicity it bring. They can't do high-pressure ammo due to the polymer constraints, so the only way to still meet the ballistic requirements and OAL limitation of the NGSW was with a bullpup. TV is outstanding ammo but they have little chance to win.

That's why GD sold the rights to TV few months before announcing the winner in what is shaping us to be the largest small arms contract in history, and why TV is promoting their ammo as drop in with existing systems to improve lethality and range, all while reducing weight. They got what they wanted on the NGSW, even without winning, promoting their ammo benefits including backward compatibility with existing platforms.

@Vet The F90 is an updated Aug, just like the Spear is just an updated AR…. And it was an entirely new rifle procurement.

The only reason one would need to make a high pressure round is if you’re trying to squeeze velocity out of a small barrel. So the bullpup design negates the need for the high pressures. This is a feature, not a sacrifice.

The compromise is in the fact that Sig has to use this high pressure round to meet the same ballistic performance. In doing so they impact the lifespan of parts and have to beef up the receiver.

It’s the same logic as trying to make a 10” 5.56 perform like a 20”.

@Vet Funny, the British and the French used bullpups FOR DECADES, with the British still using them... And they have been proven time and time again, and still are... The appropriately named 'pea shooter' however has lost far more wars than has won... 'Proven'... HAHAHAHAHA

@HemingwaysBeard It's a bit of moot discussion. For civilians, bullpups are fun and unique. For militaries who need to cater to anyone from small frame 5 feet shooters to large 6 feet ones, with lots of accessories and different mission needs, you need modular weapons. It's like comparing blackberry and iPhones. Yes, Blackberry worked and some people really liked them but we all know how that ended...

@Vet Huh, the recalled MCX is 'proven'...!? DO you even know the meaning of the word...? Sig has not produced ONE standard issue rifle (except the Swiss, which is hilarious in itself) and his rifles are hit and miss in the QC department... Nutnfancy, for instance, had a Virtus literally have it's bolt springs snap... And when a gun is recalled, ya damn must be joking saying it is 'proven'... The F2000, the standard Slovenian rifle, has far more reliability than the M4 itself, and that's BY DESIGN... So, drop the misguided love for an obsolete weapon and embrace the future... 50 years losing wars...

@HemingwaysBeard You're missing the point here, TV can't do high-pressure, it will rip their polymer ammo apart. They and GD are not stupid, it's not like the woke in the morning and said, everyone really like bullpups, especially here in the U.S., they are so cool, let's create one! We will win for sure! They had no choice if they wanted to be in the NGSW.

As for Sig, if you can meet all the requirements including barrel life from 13" AR-ish platform plus a folding stock, why not? Also, from the little footage available doesn't seem the RM277 is more controllable despite it's 18" barrel.

@Vet That’s definitely not an equivalent analogy. But I understand what you’re trying to say.

Providing soldiers with adjustable stocks is a very recent feature. One that the US army has survived without for a long time. I also suspect that the majority of all soldiers use the same hole for their stock.

This is a rifle for general forces. Special ops will always have a greater need (and more resources) to customize their kit.

@Vet Again, why would you want higher pressure ammo that requires a special design to begin with?

Sig had to come up with an entirely new case design to fit a square peg in a round hole.

I understand the engineering ability to make high pressure rounds is neat. However, if you have two guns with the same OAL, but one has a longer barrel and the other requires really high pressure rounds, why would you go with the latter?

And you should check out Task & Purpose’s YouTube channel. They did a good comparison of the Spear and RM277. The host got a lot of trigger time with both, and they seem to have had more access to the RM277 than any other outlet so far.

@HemingwaysBeard These are fair questions, but they are derived from the contract requirements. They Army presented very demanding ballistic requirements coupled with strict OAL constraints. From there you've got two engineering options - short barrel with high-pressure ammo (i.e. Sig) or long barrel with standard-pressure ammo, which means it also needs to be bullpup due to OAL (i.e. TV).

One contender is a world class vertically integrated small arms company that builds all components in-house (gun, ammo, suppressors, optics), and have a massive proven manufacturing capacity, yes, with some QC in early models, and the other is a startup that makes innovative promising ammo, but have little to no experience with firearms production. Which one would you choose to arm your military?

@Vet General Dynamics hasn’t previously dipped their toe into the military small arms market, but they’re a multi-billion dollar defense firm that makes the cannons for the A-10, F-14, F-15, F-16, F/A-18 and F/A-22. They also make the Navy’s Phalanx system.

American soldiers have relied on General Dynamics designed weapon platforms for far longer than Sig USA ones.

GD did sell the design and production rights. But at the end of the day, they still designed and supported the rifle. This decision was likely just a basic financial one like L3 buying and then later selling off Eotech.

*Btw @Vet, I did have to go back and correct one of my previous posts. It doesn’t look like the RM277’s handguard is modular. I think it’s part of a monolithic upper receiver like the SCAR.

Also, I’ve enjoyed our debate*

@HemingwaysBeard It might have been nice to have longer barreled AR’s in Afghanistan and short barrels in urban areas of Iraq.

If you are potentially fighting all over the world, it seems like a nice feature to have.

@Tex Pat The whole benefit of the bullpup design concept is that you can have a short rifle that works well in CQB environments, but also has a long barrel to generate enough velocity to provide good terminal ballistics at longer ranges. Any bullpup is going to have a shorter overall length then a traditional carbine with the same barrel length.

A 20” 5.56 bullpup would have worked well for both Iraq and Afghanistan.

Of course there are multiple shortfalls found in previous bullpup designs, but everything is a compromise. Hopefully the RM277 addresses a lot of those shortfalls. However, we do have to wait for more info to find out of it did.

The carbine version of the RM277 bullpup (with the Delta P suppressor attached) is said to be shorter than a standard 14.5” M4 and an MK18 with an RC2 suppressor attached. But you can also get it in a longer barreled variant, which is still shorter than an M4 with a surefire suppressor.

I think one of the Army’s goals for the a new round is to negate the need to switch-up rifle setups when rotating between battlefield environments like Iraq vs Afghanistan.

Special Ops will continue to have the option to tailor fit their kit. But “one-size fits all” is always the preferred solution for general infantry.

@Rijoenpial Sig made MPX machine pistols, MCX Rattler carbines and MG-338 lightweight medium machine gun

@Vet Belgium adopted FN F2000 in 2004, Saudi Arabia in 2005, Slovenia in 2006.
Croatia HS VHS in 2009, Iraq VHS in 2016.
Thailand Tavor TAR-21 in 2009, Vietnam in 2012.
Russia ADS in 2013

https://en.wikipedia.org/wi...
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And they are proven in Afganistan, Iraq, Libia, Yemen, Syria, Mexico, etc.

@HemingwaysBeard RM277 is based on FG42 and EM-2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wi...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wi...

Belgium adopted FN F2000 in 2004, Saudi Arabia in 2005, Slovenia in 2006.
Croatia HS VHS in 2009, Iraq VHS in 2016.
Thailand Tavor TAR-21 in 2009, Vietnqm in 2012.
Russia ADS in 2013

https://en.wikipedia.org/wi...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wi...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wi...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wi...

And they are proven in Afganistan, Iraq, Libia, Yemen, Syria, Mexico, etc.

@Vet Brits SF are not looking for a new rifle, they only want buy 1000 more Colt Canada L119 or LWRC M6 for new regiment.

GD sold the rights to TV because US Army prefers one supplier for weapons and ammunition.

TV is promoting their ammo because US Army wants to introduce new ammunition to currently used weapons.

@Vet But why replace millions of weapons, how cheaper you can adopt the currently used weapon to the new TV ammunition.

@Vet RM277 is designed and to be produced by Beretta in his new flagship production facility in Tennessee.

You want replace millions of weapons, how cheaper you can adopt the currently used weapon to the new TV ammunition?

@HemingwaysBeard RM277 is designed and to be produced by Beretta in his new flagship production facility in Tennessee

@Jake Both are not designed from the ground:
MCX Spear is based on AR10/15/18.
RM277 is based on FG42 and EM-2.

Even .277/6.8 ammo is not designed from the ground, is similar to:
.276 Pedersen
.280 British
6.5 mm Grendel
6.5×50mmSR Arisaka
6.5×52mm Carcano
6.5×55mm Swedish
6.5mm Creedmoor

@Vet But you can’t easy adopt the currently used weapon to the high pressure Sig ammo.

@Vet The planned order is only 100 thousand NGSW-R.

BlackBerry don’t work from January 4

@HemingwaysBeard The planned order is only 100 thousand NGSW-AR.

With TV you don’t need replace millions of weapons, cheaper you can adopt the currently used weapon to the new TV ammunition.

@HemingwaysBeard The biggest TV advantage is that you can adopt the currently used 7,62x51 weapon to the new .277 TV ammunition just only by changing the barrels.

@Vet True Velocity because can easy and cheap adopt the currently used 7,62x51 weapon to the new .277 TV ammunition just only by changing the barrels.