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	<title>The Firearm Blog &#187; terror</title>
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		<title>Mumbai police now complaining about WWI rifles and WWII helmets</title>
		<link>http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/12/04/mumbai-police-now-complaining-about-wwi-rifles-and-wwii-helmets/</link>
		<comments>http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/12/04/mumbai-police-now-complaining-about-wwi-rifles-and-wwii-helmets/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 04:45:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[news]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[type 56]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=3529</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Times reports the Mumbai police are now complaining about having to use WWI rifles (probably not quite true) and WWII helmets. Can you believe the audacity of these cowards!
The contrast between them was vividly illustrated yesterday by CCTV footage of two militants attacking Chhatrapati Shivaji terminus, Mumbai’s main railway station, last Wednesday.
It shows the [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Times <a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article5276283.ece">reports</a> the Mumbai police are now complaining about having to use WWI rifles (probably not quite true) and WWII helmets. Can you believe the audacity of these cowards!</p>
<blockquote><p>The contrast between them was vividly illustrated yesterday by CCTV footage of two militants attacking Chhatrapati Shivaji terminus, Mumbai’s main railway station, last Wednesday.</p>
<p>It shows the gunmen spraying automatic fire while two constables cower behind pillars, one armed with a<strong> .303 rifle similar to the Lee-Enfield weapons used by British troops in the First World War.<br />
</strong></p></blockquote>
<p style="text-align:center;"><a href="http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/800px-lee-enfield-rifle.jpg" onclick="window.open('http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/800px-lee-enfield-rifle.jpg','popup','width=800+20,height=187+20,scrollbars=no,resizable=yes,toolbar=no,directories=no,location=no,menubar=no,status=yes,left=0,top=0');return false" class="tfb_thumbnail"><img rel="thumbnail" src="http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/800px-lee-enfield-rifle-tm.jpg" height="93" width="400" align="" border="1" hspace="4" vspace="4" alt="800Px-Lee-Enfield Rifle" title="" longdesc="" /></a><br />
<em>Lee-Enfield Rifle No 4 Mk I</em></p>
<p>In other words: locally produced .303 Lee-Enfield Rifle No 4 Mk I. rifles (Used by the Allies in WWII) or  Ishapore .308 Lee-Enfields. Now you may think its an unfair fight with the terrorist rate of fire far higher than the police but consider this:</p>
<p><strong>Terrorists</strong>: 16<br />
<strong>Mumbai police force</strong>: 16,308 (based on India&#8217;s ratio of 126 officers per 100,000 population)<br />
<strong>Approx. ratio of terrorists to officers</strong>: 1:1000</p>
<p><strong>AK Rate of fire</strong>: 600 rounds per minutes (effective rate of fire of fire when taking into account reloading is much less)<br />
<strong>Lee Enfield rate of fire</strong>: 20+ aimed rounds per minute (a well trained operator).</p>
<p><strong>Terrorist rate of fire</strong>: 9600 rounds per minute.<br />
<strong>Police rate of fire</strong>: 327,600 rounds per minute.</p>
<p>The majority of the force would not be front line officers nor would they have 16,000 rifles, but you see the point I am trying to make.</p>
<blockquote><p>“The helmets used last week were World War Two-era, not designed for combat,” he said.</p></blockquote>
<p>I need not comment on this ridiculous statement.</p>
<blockquote><p>Y. P. Singh, who retired after 20 years in the Maharashtra police in 2005, said that he knew of two batches of body armour that had failed tests in 2001 and 2004. “They couldn’t take rounds from AK47 or AK56,” he said. “The bullets pierced the jackets.”</p></blockquote>
<p><em>(No doubt they are referring to the Chinese Type 56 AK clone. There is no AK-56)</em></p>
<p>Most police forces around the world likely use Type II armor. I don&#8217;t think anyone expected the cops to charge the terrorist with fixed bayonets.</p>
<blockquote><p>Most of the police involved were carrying .303s or self-loading rifles like those adopted by the British Army in the 1950s.</p>
<p>Some officers said that they were not given enough weapons training because of a shortage of ammunition and shooting ranges. In theory, all officers shoot 50 rounds a year in training. In practice, senior officers get their full quota with small arms.</p></blockquote>
<p>They then admit that their arsenal also includes the [likely semi-] automatic 7.62mm NATO FN FAL. From their performance I would have guessed they never trained with arms.</p>
<p style="text-align:center;"><a href="http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/800px-ak-47-and-type-56-dd-st-85-01269.jpg" onclick="window.open('http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/800px-ak-47-and-type-56-dd-st-85-01269.jpg','popup','width=800+20,height=525+20,scrollbars=no,resizable=yes,toolbar=no,directories=no,location=no,menubar=no,status=yes,left=0,top=0');return false" class="tfb_thumbnail"><img rel="thumbnail" src="http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/800px-ak-47-and-type-56-dd-st-85-01269-tm.jpg" height="262" width="400" align="" border="1" hspace="4" vspace="4" alt="800Px-Ak-47 And Type 56 Dd-St-85-01269" title="" longdesc="" /></a><br />
<em>Type  56 (Top)<br />
</em></p>
<p>I would be criticizing any police force, from any country or city, if they performed this badly.</p>
<p>mattling posted this comment on the poor police response on the <a href="http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/12/02/mp5-is-more-deadly-than-ak-says-indian-commando/">previous post where I discussed</a> the attacks:</p>
<blockquote><p>Numerous reasons:</p>
<p>1. Everyone’s gotten used to bomb blasts in Mumbai and Delhi.<br />
2. Police forces still carry equipment from WWII (not that old but the factories all make replicas)<br />
3. Even after years of dealing with the mob and terrorism, police hierarchy is simply not equipped to deal with these kinds of threats.<br />
4. Private citizens can’t import modern guns, make do with homemade and unreliable pistols.<br />
5. No intelligence on the ground and lack of inter-agency coordination.<br />
6. Corruption plays a part as well.<br />
Pretty much the same reasons that led to 9/11 and that lead to general police incompetence in any american city, except here the police vans don’t have kevlar lining in their doors and ambulances are cramped 10 year old suvs converted for private use. All these factors (and more) led to a domino effect which resulted in a days long siege where it would’ve ended in a matter of an evening in America.<br />
You know there’s something wrong when police are setting up cordons with bungee cords. How do you expect them to contain these attackers on the move? Senior officers were killed within the early hours leading to even more chaos on the ground. The joker couldn’t have schemed it better. (And he’s the ultimate schemer of them all, despite all appearances and catchphrases).<br />
Horrible analogy, but this was Heat turned into “The Kingdom”.</p></blockquote>
<p><em>In unrelated new: I am kicking myself for recently turning down a Lee Enfield mk. 5 Jungle Carbine (a real one) for a very good price.<br />
</em><br />
<em>[ Photos from Wikipedia ]</em></p>
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		<item>
		<title>MP5 is more deadly than AK says Indian Commando</title>
		<link>http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/12/02/mp5-is-more-deadly-than-ak-says-indian-commando/</link>
		<comments>http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/12/02/mp5-is-more-deadly-than-ak-says-indian-commando/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 21:58:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[machine guns]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[pakistan]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[POF]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[terror]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=3503</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Indian National Security Guard (NSG) have stooped pretty low. They are claiming part of the reason the Mumbai terror attacks were so deadly was because the terrorists were carrying MP5s and the NSG Commandos only had AK-47s. DNA India reports:
The MP5 is far superior to the AK47 and is only used by the security [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Indian National Security Guard (NSG) have stooped pretty low. They are claiming part of the reason the Mumbai terror attacks were so deadly was because the terrorists were carrying MP5s and the NSG Commandos only had AK-47s. DNA India <a href="http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1210367">reports</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>The MP5 is far superior to the AK47 and is only used by the security forces of various countries. <strong>This led the NSG to believe that the terrorists were more heavily armed than they had thought</strong>. But the mystery was solved when they realised that the terrorists had seized Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan’s weapon after killing him. <strong>The NSG feel that the acquisition of this weapon had extended their resistance by a few hours</strong>. This is also an indication, said a senior officer, that the <strong>terrorists were trained in the use of this sophisticated weapon</strong> as well.</p>
<p>&#8230;</p>
<p>Overall, the HK MP5 is the weapon of choice for most European forces and the US. More <strong>notable users include the United States’s Navy SEAL, the German GSG9 group and the British SAS.</strong> It is also used by civil protection forces such as police and special SWAT team units.</p></blockquote>
<p>The thought that these &#8220;special forces&#8221; were scared off by 9mm submachine guns when they were armed with 7.62&#215;39mm rifles is a joke. Chances are they also had 7.62mm NATO <span style="text-decoration:line-through;">G3s</span> FALs on hand as well.</p>
<p style="text-align:center;"><img src="http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/infantry-weaponspdf-page-2-of-9.png" height="213" width="399" align="" border="1" hspace="4" vspace="4" alt="Infantry Weapons.Pdf (Page 2 Of 9)" title="" longdesc="" /><br />
<em>Pakistan Ordnance Factories MP5<br />
</em></p>
<p>The fact that the terrorists were carrying MP5s is likely to have embarrassed Pakistan and fueled India&#8217;s rage. I would put money on the fact that those MP5s were manufactured by POF, the Pakistan government owned small arms and ammunition manufacturer. I coincidentally <a href="http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/12/01/golden-guns/">mentioned</a> that POF produces licensed MP5 yesterday.</p>
<p>Hat Tip: <a href="http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3731591#post3731591">MP.net</a></p>
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