Venezuelan “TOR” SMG Chambered in .357 Magnum

TOR (means fireball in one of the local languages) is a Venezuelan firearm designed by a gentleman named Fernan Altuve Febres. It was designed in 1995 and initially chambered in 5.6x36mm (a cartridge unknown to me). It was tested by Venezuelan paratroopers, tank and submarine crew members. Later on, there was a need to arm the LEOs with a compact and lightweight firearm that could offer sufficient stopping power and be something intermediate between a traditional SMG in 9mm and an assault rifle. That’s what made the designer to make a version of this firearm chambered in .357 Magnum.

TOR SMG is gas operated. It feeds from 15 or 30 round magazines. It is also designed with the ease of manufacturing being an important criterion. The gun consists of less than 30 parts. TOR SMG weighs 2.8 kg (6lb 3 oz) and has the following dimensions: L720mm (28.3”) x H160mm (6.3”) x W40mm (1.6”). The original version has a barrel length of 13”. However, the designer is planning to introduce it to the US civilian market with a 16.5” barrel to qualify as a rifle. The barrels feature polygonal rifling. There will also be a version chambered in 9x19mm.

The TOR SMG is now in the patenting process in the USA. That’s the reason why the designer does not reveal any detailed images or drawings of the mechanism. The top image of this article is pretty much the only one that we can see right now.

Pistol caliber carbines have always been popular partially because they share the same ammunition with the sidearm. That being said, I think if TOR is introduced to the US market, it could be a good modern alternative to the lever action rifles for wheel gun aficionados.

Many thanks to Fernan Altuve Febres – the designer of TOR SMG for providing the information.



Hrachya H

Being a lifelong firearms enthusiast, Hrachya always enjoys studying design, technology and history of guns and ammunition. His knowledge of Russian allows him to translate and make Russian/Soviet/Combloc small arms related information available for the English speaking audience.
Should you need to contact him, feel free to shoot him a message at TFBHrachyaH@gmail.com


Advertisement

  • Red McCloud

    30 rounds of .357 in a relatively compact package?
    Me likey.
    Me likey a lot.

    • Nick

      Sounds kinda dubious though. That many rimmed cartridges seems like it would be a jam-o-matic as well.

      • noob

        if they are highly angled in the magazine so that there is no way you can have the rims hang up you might get away with it.

        think “the rim of the cartridge above sits at the midpoint of the cartridge below” kind of angled

        • iksnilol

          Or just a divider wall between them like the PMR-30.

          • Paul White

            that makes me want a comically oversized 50 round stick magazine. Sure it’d cost 30 bucks to load with self defense ammo but HEY! It’d be fun as hell

          • noob

            “Monopod? no that’s my walking stick. You wouldn’t deprive an old man of his walking stick?” https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e58c6d64b80e135a186652282743281aa9aeab6f04354107f8df1627eacff585.jpg

          • Fernán Altuve Febres

            06-Aug-17 noob, your walking stick looks like a chinese versión AK.

          • Fernán Altuve Febres

            06-Aug-17 Paul White, I also smile with you but that 50 rd mag could weight as much as Al Capone’s St. Valentines Day Thomson SMG .45 acp with 50 rds. drum. If LOEs don´t hit criminals with some shots
            of “TOR”‘s 24/30 rds. mags. they really lostthe boat, or theyr lives…
            Fernán

          • Fernán Altuve Febres

            06-Aug-17 iksnikol, that’s a good observation and comment, however PMR-30 is Grendel proprietary design for .22 Win. Mag. rimmed ctgs.
            and its good business practice for “TOR”‘s future, not take short-cuts it could lament lateron. Appretiate your arms knowledge Rgds Fernan

          • iksnilol

            And your current VB magazine isn’t FN Herstal proprietary design from P90?

        • Fernán Altuve Febres

          06-Aug-17 noob good afternoon, touché! that’s one way to solve it but I took a different approach without ctdges laying in a high angled mag
          which means it took more carefulness, know-how and time to solve in
          .357 “Magnum”‘s case.

      • mcjagermech

        There are ways to make autoloaders feed rimmed ammunition reliably

        • Flounder

          Sure, but a major one is having a curved magazine. And 357 generally requires a big curve. And that is a straight magazine, in a straight grip. From south america… I Bet it suckssssss. And It also appears to be higher capacity and originally designed to be double stack.

          The deck is going all against this gun.

          • mcjagermech

            I don’t think the final product will look anything like the photo that was provided. An interrupter mechanism could be used too

          • Fernán Altuve Febres

            06-Aug-17 mcjagermech good afternoon Touche! “TOR” .357 “Mag” version looks quite different than original “TOR” MKb in 5.7x36mm, I
            am also convienced if I successfully manufacture it in USA, it has to
            take in account US manufacturers, production machines & know-how
            as my RD&E of “TOR” follows my spanish-german specialization. Rgds. Fernan

          • Fernán Altuve Febres

            06-Aug-17 Hi flounder good afternoon, “TOR” only uses our designed
            .357 “Magnum” straight high capacity burst fire magazine, only used I hope by LOEs with 13″ (330mm) barrel, not legal for sporting/hunting with 16.5″ (421mm) semi-auto version with less capacity mags. Rgds.
            Fernán

        • Fernán Altuve Febres

          06-Aug-17. mcjagermech, yes… however only for semi-auto .357 Magnum pistols and only with single stack small capacity magazines legal for carry-on self-defense guns, not for metal-silouette or hunting.

      • Paul White

        that’s my biggest concern. But if it’s reliable and reasonably priced…hubba hubba

        • Fernán Altuve Febres

          06-Aug-2016 Paul White good afternoon, I share your point of view! However be sure “TOR” .357 “Magnum” carbine for LOEs or sport shooting or hunting, its RD&E took into careful account, low mfg, purchase, available ammo. simple operation, maintenance or repair costs, so future US, Canada, or EEC owner´’s wallets are satisfied.
          Regds., Fernán

    • Fernán Altuve Febres

      06-August-2027 Red good afternoon, the “TOR” .357 “Magnum” magazine is heavy, I have tested it with 28 rounds, which could be sufficient well managed firepower since
      “TOR” MKb for LOEs has a two-stage selector-trigger, no need for hands-off-weapon Fernán

  • noob

    Gas operated eh? if you dispense with the pistol grip and have the trigger backing onto a rifle sized magazine well, could you go 5.56nato?

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b5dd0f360b43e43c57992fb1a3c6166bc35c718928cc7c7fb1f1e8d39ef8693d.jpg

    • DW

      This needs to be a thing again. We now have the technology.

      • noob

        With a 10rd magazine it could even be 50 state legal.

        • Fernán Altuve Febres

          06-Aug-17. Noob, touché again. “TOR” civilian version has maximum 10 round .357 “Magnum” magazines

      • Fernán Altuve Febres

        06-Aug-17.DW I hope as well as you, the technology and know-how are here.

  • BattleshipGrey

    I’m surprised they’re not looking into the existing market of SMGs, but given the troubles in Venezuela I shouldn’t be. Hopefully it works and hopefully there’s no issues with importation once it’s proven. I’ve always wanted to see more semi auto love for the 357mag.

    • Fernán Altuve Febres

      06-Aug-17. “TOR” .357 Magnum or 9mm prototypes were tested side by side with Berettas CX-4 9mm carbines purchased from Italy by the actual govt., and have been used agains unarmed demonstrators of which already+100 were shot dead.
      Apart the mentioned anomalous events, “TOR” in both calibers hit hard vs. CX-4.

  • Haulin’ Oats

    5.6x36mm is also known as .22 WCF

    • Precious Mettle

      Or the more likely, 5.6x35R, aka 22 Hornet, which seems slightly more plausible than a long dead 19th century cartridge.

      • Haulin’ Oats

        The article says 36, not 35r.

    • Fernán Altuve Febres

      06-Aug-17. Haulin’ Oats good evening, not so… original “TOR” 5.7x36mm is not in any way a .22 WCF, I developed it experimentally from the 4.6x36mm experimental
      patented CETME CP-416 cartridge designed by master ballistician Dr. Günther Vöss
      who was my ballistics professor at CETME-Spain, So I expanded the neck of CP-416
      an extra 1.1 mm in diameter in order not to infringe his 4.6mm “Loffelspitz” Patent. In
      one of my visits to Plainfield Machine Co., Manager Rick Richmond, at Plainfield N.J.
      i gave him a box of CETME CP-416 4.6x36mm “Loffelspitz” cartridges, to rechamber
      M-1/M-2 PMC carbines specially rebarreled for Perú’s COIN evaluation. Those Ctgs.
      reached Col. Mel Johnson who later developed the 5.7mm “Spitfire”, which same as
      mine didn´t tamper with Dr. Günter Vöss of CETMEs assigned world patents. Rgds.

      • Haulin’ Oats

        The article above stated 5.6mm not 5.7, it seems as if a correction is due.

  • Rafael Gonzalez

    This and a Chiappa Rhino — perfect for the coming apocalypse. Couple it with a Lee Hand Press or Lee Loader and youre set!

    • noob

      Also if you took a few coils out of the recoil spring on a .357 magnum desert eagle it might be able to cycle .38 special without stove piping. I think there was a video last year that showed .38 special in a desert eagle was too light but .357 magnum fed, fired and ejected without a hitch.

      • Fernán Altuve Febres

        06-Aug-17 Noob I really appretiate your comment on few-coils-off .357 “Mag”
        desert eagle recoil spring when the issue of shooting -38 SPL is time-wise as that could be an optional asset for “TOR” if .38SPL/FMJ or HP-MJ are used-

    • Fernán Altuve Febres

      06-Aug-17 GRVO1 good afternoon, I also like Chiappa 9mm carbine, it hooked on in
      the US and other lands, I also agree Lee Press and Lee Loaders will make pleasant
      ammo. supplies today for Chiappa 9mm I hope asap for “TOR” .357 “Magnum. Rgds.

    • Fernán Altuve Febres

      recoild06-Aug-17 GRVO1 good afternoon, I also like Chiappa 9mm carbine, it hooked on in
      the US and other lands, I also agree Lee Press and Lee Loaders will make pleasant
      ammo. supplies today for Chiappa 9mm I hope asap for “TOR” .357 “Magnum. Rgds.

    • Fernán Altuve Febres

      recoild06-Aug-17 GRVO1 good afternoon, I also like Chiappa 9mm carbine, it hooked on in
      the US and other lands, I also agree Lee Press and Lee Loaders will make pleasant
      ammo. supplies today for Chiappa 9mm I hope asap for “TOR” .357 “Magnum. Rgds.

  • Edison Frisbee

    Perfect for Venezuelan flamingo hunts to put meat on the table….

    • Fernán Altuve Febres

      06-Aug-17. In a sad way yes! Venezuela with only 30 million inhabitants was the wealthiest, perhaps the happiest land on earth, but unfortunately socialist oligarcs of the same fur as the 1917 soviets or 1959 fidelist revolutionaries had the brilliant idea that it was easier to communize Venezuela, by ransacking USDs from its oil income, so in acts of satanic-black-magic, the richest land was converted in very misearable, one reason why “TOR” will not be made for or where LOE mow down Human Rights.

  • wetcorps

    This is pretty damn cool.

    • Fernán Altuve Febres

      06-Aug-17. wetcorps good evening, I really appretiate your cool commentary. Rgds.

    • Fernán Altuve Febres

      06-Aug-17. wetcorps good evening, I really appretiate your cool commentary. Rgds.

  • john huscio

    Excellent idea. Id be interested for the simple reason that theres almost no hicap semiauto 357s available.

    • noob

      Can you get a ludicrously long magazine for the .357 magnum desert eagle? https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0735daeaf95bfe35bed7f71537eb6e27292e539730033bc6df9755bdae39aca7.jpg

      • Fernán Altuve Febres

        06-Aug-17. noob, a longer magazine for a 357 magnum desert eagle should only be designed by its bright designer who knows most answer why & how?

    • Fernán Altuve Febres

      06-Aug-17. John Huscio good evening, the excellent idea born more than 30 years ago in arms research and development conversations with Mr. Gordon Ingram at my
      former factory at Eibar in Spain. After 1980, he came to visit me there to explore if I
      could make some special parts for a rimmed cartridge SMG prototype .41 “Magnum”.

  • Brett baker

    Wouldn’t 9mm WIN Mag feed easier?

    • Fernán Altuve Febres

      06-Aug-17 Brett Baker, good evening to you, touche ! of course 9mm Mag would feed easier than .357 “Magnum”, but the ammo cost is lower with .357 Magnum, and reloading is much easier with .357 Mag.

  • Swarf

    Well hell.

    Every time I think I’m out, they keep pulling me back in. They keep pulling me back in!

    If this is real, I’m going to have to get one.

    • Fernán Altuve Febres

      06-Aug-17 Swarf , I hope to get one made in USA asap same as tou do!

  • Vizzini

    Wouldn’t .30 carbine fill this role better?

    • Swarf

      No. Hush up, you.

      • Vizzini

        😀

    • RealitiCzech

      No way, .30 Carbine bounces off winter coats. .357 going at exactly the same speed with a similar size bullet can’t bounce off coats, because it has ‘Magnum’ in the name.

      • Fernán Altuve Febres

        06-Aug-17. RealitiCzech good evening, .30 Carbine bullets did’nt bounce off
        german army winter coats they were using at the Battle of the Bulge in 1944, when several hundreds M1/M2s were captured by germans if not more. Why should de germas love M1/M2s and american troops despise them? Many germans were hit from point-blank/bush-range to 300-400 meters that’s good!
        By the way, did you know M-52 czech made 7.62x25mm loaded for M-24/26 M-52 SMGs desined by Koucky brothers, had similar V°/E° than 7.62x33mm
        so called .30 caliber M-1 cartridge ni european countries? you’ll be surprised.
        Cuba, Perú and Nicaragua still have them, perhaps best SMG in the world…!

    • Fernán Altuve Febres

      06-Aug-17. Vizzini good evening, even I’ve shot .30 carbines M-1/M-2 quite a lot as they were standard issue in our Army and National Guard in venezuela, as that gun
      is loved here a was quite well appretiated by the germans who captured many, both
      M-1/M-2, don’ take as an ill-criticism, haven’t been well thought-off by US military in
      2-WW, Korean War and Vietnam, were in the last place was not deflected easily by
      heavy brush or twigs as .223/M-193s. US M-1/M-2 .30 carbine caliber projectiles did
      perform excellently in central & southamerica in years of COIN operations being the
      reason Plainfield Machine Co., equipped army, national guard and police COIN units and Colt M-16s failed to peform better than carbine Williams nice baby. If you shoot
      TOR 16.5″ barrel side by side to M-1 against metal silouettes you’ll hear .357 Clang!!

  • Edeco

    Hmmm. As I’ve said before I’d like this form factor with gas action. I wouldn’t mind a presumably girthy grip since it could be gripped at the fore stock and shouldered.

    • Fernán Altuve Febres

      06-Aug-17 Edeco good evening “TOR”‘s secret in .357 Magnum is a new gas action luckily in late 1995 “H&K” Messrs. Bär or Lamp, didn´t get their hands on gas action
      drawings, so went after a wild-goose-chase, first cutting down CETME’s 4-6x36mm
      cartridge to 4.6x30mm, which also meant they also failed to obtain magazine dwgs.
      Before going into .357 magazine design we RD&E human hand ergonomics design.

  • Nergyl

    So basically, it’s that machine pistol from Robocop?

  • Young Freud

    This beggars the question, has there been any submachinegun in a large or “magnum” caliber. I remember roleplaying games like Cyberpunk 2020 having stuff routinely chambered in 11mm (metric .44 Magnum), having essentially Heckler & Koch MP5s feeding 12mm rounds (before .50 AE or .500 S&W), and even having large calibers like 14mm and 15mm Kurz (a significantly cut down 15mm BMG) for shooting cyborgs and dudes in power armor. Ray Winninger’s Underground had 20mm and 25mm submachineguns, but almost everyone was supposed to be superpowered supersoldiers with bulletproof skin, so the only thing that could reliably pierce skin and cause a wound was using a bore over a centimeter or more.

    In real life, .45 ACP and 10mm is pretty much the top-end I’ve seen before this or going to carbine or rifle cartridges. The only other project I knew of was the Canadians post-WW2 were developing a SMG for the .45 NAACO round (a.k.a. .45 Win Mag) to go along with the NAACO Brigadier, but the NATO standardization killed both.

    • noob

      Kriss vector and H&K have been into seeing how much the shoulders and pocketbooks of the FBI can take

      • Fernán Altuve Febres

        06-Aug-17. noob you´ll be surprised to this comment, make a silouette sketch of 1995 “TOR” MKb caliber 5.7x36mm and one of much later “H&K” PDW/M7 4.6x30mm, place “TOR”‘s image over “H&K” PDW/M7 or ctg. 5.7x36mm over
        “H&K” cut down 4.6x36mm “Loffelspitz” CETME patented cartridge cP-416 in
        which excellent spanish RD&E I specialized, you’ll imagine who copied who.
        Late in 1995 “H&K” tried faudulently sell the G-11 caseless cartridge license
        to venezuelan govt, being taken to court by “TOR”. “H&K” reps were in prison

  • Fernán Altuve Febres

    06-Aug-17 Messrs TFB – The Firearms Blog Administrators & patient interested very expert bloggers I have found here with my courtesy and respect. Please forgive my enthusiasm and
    delight to answer mostly acute minded bloggers, who have also kindly contributed with their useful comments, to assist or guide me to improve “TOR” .357 Magnum or 9x19mm versions design and development for LOEs or private US, Canada, or EEC sports shooters or hunters
    for a new attractive and useful economic to make, use, maintin or repair modern weapon.

    • Fernán Altuve Febres

      06-Aug-17. Gents by the way I forgot to mention original “TOR” MKb 5.7x36mm 1995 “assault-carbine” version for paratroops, tankers and submarine crews, had simple flip-up front and rear sights, so would’nt get in the way of aircraft eqmt., tank eqmt. or submarine eqmt. Rear sight had no windage, both had “trilumin” night fluorescense.