Is VODA Consulting Mentally Challenged? YouTuber Proves He Is With Science … And A Shot Timer

Over the last several weeks Voda Consulting has taken some rather serious heat for the video they released where the founder of VODA Consulting Michael Thervil A.K.A. Lucian Black posted a video of him performing something he calls the E.D.A./E.C.K. drill. The question had to be answered, is VODA Consulting retarded?

Now I previously wrote a post about Thervil’s response to the gun community’s outcry after the video was posted that likely went over like a fart in church, but a YouTuber has taken it upon himself to answer that very question by using science, truth, facts and a shot timer.

Thervil has repeatedly said that no one has used science to prove him wrong, so someone thought they should use science to prove his methods wrong.

Youtuber Bastion Black Performance drug a cardboard target out, an airsoft gun, a timer and a knife out to a range to see if he was faster and used other carry positions to see if something else is more efficient or faster. Not only was he faster than Thervil with the E.D.A/E.C.K. drill, but when he switched over to his preferred carry position he was significantly faster as well as when he went to use the knife only.

Thervil’s response? The results were inadmissible because a real gun wasn’t used. No matter that Bastion Black Performance used an airsoft gun in the interest of safety (I mean, who wants to shoot themselves by accident?) that approximated a ‘real steel’ gun. I totally get why a real firearm wasn’t used and am frankly a little disturbed that Thervil couldn’t see the merit in the video because the shooter had safety in mind.

Know the PREMISE! USE REAL GUNS if you are going to prove me wrong! Read more at Vodalogic.com

A post shared by VODA Inc. (@voda_consulting) on





Patrick R

Patrick is a Senior Writer for The Firearm Blog and TFBTV Host. He likes guns and has liked shooting guns for as long as he can remember. You can follow Patrick on Instagram @tfbpatrick, Facebook, or contact him by email at TFBpatrick@gmail.com.

The above post is my opinion and does not reflect the views of any company or organization.


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  • hami

    “retarded”? Really? What a high standard we have for ourselves.

    • Raginzerker

      Triggered?

    • ShootingFromTheHip

      Bend to whiny liberal will much?

    • Will B.

      He’s not disparaging the differently abled, he’s is literally stating what we all know, that VODA without question has a lower than average IQ.

      • hami

        It’s a word that people with handicapped friends/relatives find insulting, insensitive, and sometimes even offensive. You guys can say it all you want. For it to be published on a this blog is a different story.

        The writers should be held to a higher standard.

        • RocketScientist

          It’s a word that OTHERS of us who are part of the community find perfectly fine, and don’t get our panties in a twist about. In fact, many of us find it quite infantilizing and disrespectful when folks like you get all worked up about it, the implication being that we’re too delicate/weak to withstand some mean words. And I know your initial reaction is probably a reply to explain to me how I’m wrong… but please stop for a second and think about how even MORE infantilizing and disrespectful THAT is. “Oh, well see, you’re too stupid to understand why you should be offended by this word… it’s because those mean people are using it to call you stupid”. How about you stop policing the words people use to communicate their ideas, just because YOU personally find it distasteful. Here’s a question… do you ever use words like stupid, idiot, moron, imbecile, dumb, etc? Because EVERY one of those words started life as a medical term for various mental/developmental maladies, that then entered the common lexicon as slang/derogatory terms for people/things/ideas having nothing to do with those maladies, and are now considered completely innocent words to use. It’s called the euphemism carousel. You’re guilty of it yourself. So give us a rest and stop defending us from “meany words”, some of us may be retarded, but we are smart enough to realize they can’t actually hurt us.

          • Dan

            ^^^^^^so much this

    • ZuluHotel

      Morty: Ooo, oh boy Rick, I-I don’t think you’re allowed to say that word. Ya know?

      Rick: Uh Morty, I’m not disparaging the differently abled. I’m stating the fact that if I had used this microscope it would have made me mentally retarded.

      Morty: Ok but yeah, I don’t think it’s about logic, Rick. I-I think the word has just become a symbolic issue for powerful groups that feel like they’re doing the right thing.

      Rick: Well that’s retarded.

    • m-dasher

      since when did so many SJWs become interested in guns?

      ooooh i know, youre all the ones who bought guns for the Trumpocalypse ….right?

      • Reed Cz

        The assumption that left-leaning people don’t own and carry firearms is foolish. It’s not actually a very popular plank of the platform save for the politicians themselves.

        • RocketScientist

          It’s not a very popular opinion among party members, except for those that the rest of us give our votes and cash to, and are freely elected by us to represent the beliefs and views we hold important.

          • Sunshine_Shooter

            Man, if only those representatives freely elected by the voters actually represented what those free voters thought…

          • RocketScientist

            Well I guess those lefty voters could try voting for someone else… (check to see that Feinstein and Pelosi have both continuously held elected office for about the last 30 years) Oh…so, maybe those politicians ARE representing the views of their constituency?

        • M-dasher

          then maybe yall could start acting like it and stop electing those rabidly anti gun politicians..

  • Mitch

    Needs more stemple… The Voda video was shot pre-stempling. INVALID!

    • Phillip Cooper

      Stemple: a crossbar of wood in a mine shaft serving some special purpose (as of a step, supporting timber, or strut)

      WTF are you talking about?

      • Zack mars

        Thats what voda calls stippling

        • Phillip Cooper

          He just got even stupider, then.

        • Edeco

          Yup, he uses a lot of malaprops

  • SGT Fish

    im still in disbelief that someone posted a video of themselves shooting the ceiling of an indoor range. Is he trolling us?

    • Trey Heldmann

      My thoughts exactly, this dude can’t be serious.

      • Cesare Renzi

        Is it even legal to post willfully erroneous firearm instructional videos?

    • RageRifter

      Nope, I wasn’t there but came in the very next day. Nobody there was happy.

    • Juan

      This guy is obviously trolling us. I’m just amazed that so many people are stupid enough to believe that this is real. No wonder fake news moves so easily on Facebook.

  • JT303

    Does anybody even take VODA seriously? After that bs about ‘dropping hammers on people’ and there being a ‘minimum of five rounds per person’. I have a hard time believing his ‘trainees’ aren’t stooges because it takes an inhuman level of stupidity or malice to take money and teach people unsafe and ineffective practice… but then again, if anybody were to be the trifecta of idiot, imbecile and moron it would be Mr. Thervil… God, even his name sounds silly.

    • Dr. Longfellow Buchenrad

      Well when I watch his videos neither he nor his “trainees” look to be the most intelligent of people, but for all I know he could be telling the deepest secrets of life. Its hard to hear much at all over all the mouth breathing in the room.

      • UWOTM8

        His trainees usually look like very confused older people or those who probably just live nearby him and don’t know better.

        • Dr. Longfellow Buchenrad

          Youve got to know literally nothing (and I mean nothing at all) about guns to have no objection to what he does and at that level of knowledge you would have no idea how to find a firearm trainer or why you would need one. Willfully letting someone point a loaded gun at you takes a special kind. Basic common sense says dont unnecessarily stand directly in front of something that can kill you. Unless you genuinely dont know what could happen if you do that, you are stupid.

          • stephen

            The sad thing is the majority of my basic and CCW classes are filled with newbies who know nothing – and over time it seems there are less and less with common sense.

      • Saint Stephen the Obvious

        The ‘trainees’ have an excuse because they are newbies to firearms because they don’t know any better.

        However Voda has no excuse for his stupidity. Numerous people have tried to correct his lack of safety but he refuses correction. Matter of fact the bible discusses this very point…

        Proverbs 12:1 “Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge, But he who hates correction is stupid.”

        Saint Stephen the Obvious

    • Phillip Cooper

      “Thug tactical”… this should tell you everything you need to know.

      More than likely, his students are homies off the block, drug dealers and wannabe gangstaz…

      • Ebby123

        Nah. That type would call him on his bullshit.

        He’s basically got a bag that he’s trying to fill with every cool adjective and buzzword he can find, and pass that off as his “Credentials”.

  • Jim Slade
  • Hellbilly

    I watched a few of this VODA guy’s videos. He is not a certified instructor, but he most definitely is a certified idiot. The scary thing is that he is spreading his idiocy among his clients.

  • Edeco

    The video proves nothing, the shooter failed to neutralize the ceiling.

    Seriousely, encouraging someone to use a real gun when doing ninja moves – I wouldn’t want that on my conscience.

    • jonp

      Jesus…Didn’t you see Aliens 2? They always come through the ceiling. Why can’t everyone here be forward thinkers like this Death Dealer?

      • Edeco

        Totally, or a perp could be attacking from one of those fold down attic staircase things

  • Saint Stephen the Obvious

    Voda will get himself or someone else injured or killed if he keeps up with the stupidity. BTW he has already had his NRA credentials revoked but he did say he will be trying to get a certification to teach CCW in his state. With that said if anyone knows what organization he is going through, they need to be made aware of his asinine antics so he will NEVER get certified.

    I personally think he is mentally unstable – he keeps saying “we at Voda” but the fact is Voda only consists of him. Every video of him show him and or his students (poor souls) flagging themselves and others with no remorse.

    Mark my words its only a matter of time.

    Saint Stephen the Obvious

    • CJ Klaszky

      I agree that he’s mentally unstable. What’s even more disturbing is that some people support him and take instruction from him.

  • ShootCommEverywhere

    I had no idea what an “ECK” was, so I had to look it up on the VODA website: https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4c3b50710c0dd676d59d3c5f0a480d3b9ed8f553def48def8ccc32716761007c.png

    • Phillip Cooper

      “cybernetic combat”? REALLY???

      Where’s the machinery?

      • Madcap_Magician

        What the actual f*ck is cybernetic combat!?!?

        • Phillip Cooper

          Exactly!

          I suspect it’s just another buzzword this dipsh*t found.

          • miniguyvegas

            Is he hacking the T1000 attacking him, or is he referring to himself as having some cyber, cybernetic capability? (Not the same thing as we currently label them) Or are we all just reading way too much into an idiots ideas?

    • jcobbers

      This guy trade marks his own name (real or not)and looking at his web site he claims he integrates the following academic disciplines: Sociology, Organizational Science Psychology, Case-Management, Physics, Biomechanics, Physiology, Anthropology, Medicine, Case-Studies, Quantum Mechanics, Chaotic Social Systems Theory™ (proprietary), Economics, Statistics, Current Events, History, Law, Cybernetics and life experiences to name of few.

      Who uses Quantum Mechanics, and Cybernetics in their training program except John Conner when taking the fight to Skynet? Holy Crap I just figured it out! Mr. Thervil is from the future here train us to survive the coming robot apocalypse!

      • Dr. Longfellow Buchenrad

        Have you tried slashing a robot across the chest?

        I think R2D2 would chuckle.

        • jcobbers

          If it is a T-800 you need to cut it to see if there’s a metal endoskeleton of course, how else are you going to find out your assailant is an unstoppable cyborg from the future, unless it looks like Ahrnuld?

          • Cymond

            Simple: dogs.
            You don’t have to reinvent the wheel. 😛

      • ShootCommEverywhere

        Further investigation of his website shows he’s a proponent of such operator-cool (TM) disciplines as Center Axis Relock and Israeli Combat Point Shooting.

    • Samuel Millwright

      Holy sweet jesus… Engage in cybernetic combat… That word doesn’t mean what you think it means.

  • Gun Fu Guru

    “like a fart in church”
    You had to bring religion into it.

  • Nicks87

    This guy is toxic. Scary.

  • SPQR9

    Do bears defecate in the woods?

    • Disarmed in CA

      I offer eye-witness testimony that they do.

  • Saint Stephen the Obvious

    The bible talks about VODA and his lack of knowledge and unwillingness to accept correction…

    “Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge, But he who hates correction is stupid.” Proverbs 12:1

    Saint Stephen the Obvious

    😉

    • Marc Young

      hands down the best thing i’ve read on the web in years…hats off to you brother…Alabamarc says two opposing thumbs up

  • VODA is one G short of a GECK.

  • Joshua

    Idiots like him are why ranges have such strict rules now days.

  • Dan

    Breaking it down:

    1) Eat lots of Peanut M&M’s
    2) Expose belly by pulling up polo shirt
    3) Catch gun hand in hem of shirt
    4) Shoot ceiling
    5) Shoot left hand with right hand
    6) Win

  • junyo

    And yet the gunblog-iverse Keeps. Giving. Him. Clicks.

    He’s not retarded, he’s got a business model that gets dozens of other sites to give him free exposure.

    • Voice from East

      Exactly.

    • Sunshine_Shooter

      What does that exposure get him? It’s not like a bunch of people think he’s onto something. I highly doubt that he’s getting any more students because of this exposure.

      • junyo

        The same thing that any number of people that do stupid stuff on social media get. Assuming that self aggrandizement isn’t enough, it’s possible these days to monetize just being famous, because no matter how crazy your antics are, someone will pay you if you can drive enough traffic to their platform. The fact that this guy’s been on all the gun blogs for the last month, and every thread generates tons of righteous indignation means he’s generating tons of traffic.

        • Kelly Jackson

          That’s only true if you’re getting hundreds of thousands of unique visitors his Youtube channel is no where near that terrorist.

          In fact most of his videos aren’t even on his channel because he removes them, they’re airing on OTHER peoples channel which means his revenue is zero.

          • junyo

            His revenue from his Youtube channel. Which is not the only way to thing people get out of Internet celebrity.

            There are likely hundreds of mediocre to bad gun “instructors” in the US. Yet you know this guy. You know his name and VODA is damn near a recognizable brand in the gun community. This guy is trolling so hard and people keep giving this dude free exposure and he keeps driving traffic to sites… like this one. How many other gun instructors, good, bad or indifferent, are mentioned on this site as much as this dude? His out-Yeagering Buck Yeager and everybody keeps falling for it.

          • I for one am happy not to be constantly seeing mr. “i’m going to start shooting people” on all my suggested videos no matter how many times I blocked his channel, and refused to give any content with his name clicks.

          • junyo

            Yup. But we’re going to feeding this trainwreck.

          • Kelly Jackson

            Drive traffic to what site? He’s not getting a check from TFB and nobody is paying him to visit his webpage, there aren’t any advertisments.

            His Youtube channel isn’t anywhere near the views required before he starts reciving a check. His highest viewed video has less than 4,000 views.

            And the only “press” he’s getting got his NRA instructor cerifcication revoked and he was banned from his local range for shooting through the ceiling.

            You literally know nothing about this and it’s scary.

          • junyo

            And you’re here arguing on the internet over this guy. Repeatedly. You’ve already made him more famous than you’ll ever be.

        • Fernando Tamayo

          He should get brands of tourniquets and first aid kits on board. 😂

  • Gary Kirk

    Will someone do the world a favor and give this ass hat a deagle and phonebook already..

    • Dr. Longfellow Buchenrad

      Tell him its #thugtactical body armor

  • Madcap_Magician

    I don’t understand what the purpose of this drill is. I’m no Tommy Tactical, but I’m extremely leary of any close-quarters drill that involves both of my hands being occupied for three seconds while at bad-breath distance. I think if someone attempted to do that to me, my strategy would be to punch them repeatedly while they were attempting to simultaneously draw with both hands. Possibly also a nad stomp or two.

    • miniguyvegas

      Hit me, go one, take your best shot, I have a gun. Umm, OK, sure.

  • Lee

    Sad to say, but the average college kid with magpul dvd’s would be a far better trainer than this guy.

    Everyone on this forum might as well have a second business as a firearm trainer. If VODA can have no experience, no land, no private range, and probably hardly any guns…yet still make a living doing this stuff, anyone can be a trainer.

    Credentials dont matter in more…just pics on social media.

    • Edeco

      Yup, pretty much any of us could do better. Regardless of special knowledge, could at least explain safety and basic manipulations without wasting time and risk on made-up martial arts.

      • Evan

        I’m not sure I could do better than that. It takes a special kind of elite training to repeatedly violate all the safety rules and every bit of common sense. But what do I know? I learned my tactical skills from the Marine Corps School of Infantry, not cook training/Chicago housing projects, and the only “thugtactical” move I know is to hold the pistol sideways.

    • Sunshine_Shooter

      It’s hard to believe that Voda has made a living off of teaching people to get killed.

      • Grey Beard

        Somebody has to step up as the Darwin Award nominees are pretty slim this year. Desert Eagle through the book is my personal front runner this year though, followed by the guy trying to drive drunk up a pedestrian bridge staircase in a parking garage.

        • mpolans

          Desert Eagle guy is disqualified from the Darwin Awards. He had a kid and his baby momma was knocked up with another. Hopefully his stupidity was recessive and skips over his kids.

  • Rick O’Shay

    Stop giving this guy oxygen. FFS. Honestly. I wish I had web filters that just friggin’ blocked any mention of it… a “firewall” that gives me a screen like the 404 splash page going, “1911 ERROR: We’ve detected content on this page will destroy more of your brain cells and you’ve indicated you don’t want to see it anymore.”
    Or something. Jesus H. Christ. He feeds off this sh*t, so stop already.

    • Edison Frisbee

      I love this kind of stuff…keep it up TFB!

    • Jack_A_Lope

      Relax, Francis.

  • Dr. Longfellow Buchenrad
  • Gabriel M

    Why the hell did Lucien Black trademark his name????

    • Disarmed in CA

      See you in court, buddy! Unauthorized use of trademarked name. :-p

    • miniguyvegas

      He trademarked his fake name

  • AC97

    Damn shame this guy is wasting precious oxygen, food, and water.

    Oh well, at this rate, it’s only a matter of time…

  • mosinman

    i hope he’s training Antifa

  • Zapped 02

    From this clowns bio, “The Director of VODA Consulting represents over 15 years working in environments that range from Medium to High Risk. This includes working as a K-9 Handler/Tactical Security Officer in Chicago, Illinois within various Public Housing Units (CHA), Public Railways (CTA) and Commercial Business Applications which also includes the use of K-9’s for the deployment of narcotic and bomb detection and Rapid Response applications. After enlisting in the U.S Army, with an MOS of 68M (Nutrition Care Specialist), he successfully graduated with a diploma in Nutrition Care (Fort Sam, Houston TX). Other Military training completed: United States Army Subversion and Espionage Training and the United States Army Operations Security training.”

    So he was a cook ???
    And is now located in Fayetteville nc, there should be no shortage of REAL skilled people from Bragg in the area to put this clown out of business.

    • pvw20

      So he’s a black man from Chicago with a gun? Oh yeah, he’s destined to shoot someone eventually.

      • Edeco

        According to a thing on BearingArms he may have, as a corrections officer. I’d post a link but it would take effort and be delayed… it comes up if you google it.

        • Lyman Hall

          It took effort, all right. Googe Michael D Thervil Fayetteville NC.

      • BrokenTengu99 .

        Didn’t take you long to get here .

    • Bucho4Prez

      I can attest that the CTA is a safe and clean environment thanks to the courage of that nutrition care specialist…

    • Sunshine_Shooter

      So, VODA enlisted in the Army, got an MOS as a cook, didn’t fail the training for said MOS, then lived in Chicago with a dog and met drug dealers in public housing, public trains, and other businesses.

    • kingof9x

      I heard he taste tested MRE’s

      • Widgt

        If you are correct this may be the first positive bit of info about mister VODA. I believe we can all agree that today’s MREs are waaaaay better then they used to be. Dehydrated pork patty anyone?…anyone?

    • valorius

      A K9 handler in Chicago ghettos is a legit dangerous job. Not here to defend the guy, but that job is probably way more dangerous than most MOS’s in A-stan will ever face.

      • stephen

        Seen some stuff where he was fired/encouraged to leave from that job – so he might have been employed but for how long is questionable.

        • They caught him in a back room with his dog.
          ‘Nuff said.

      • Zapped 02

        And probably is a better paying job then a incompetent firearms instructor. 🤔🤔

        • valorius

          LOL, most likely.

    • Grey Beard

      Wow, a dietician spy. Who would have ever thought that this could be a thing?

      • Edison Frisbee

        Now it can be told….Seagal’s movie “Under Siege ” was based on real life events….

    • some other joe

      68M is basically a nutritionist’s assistant (92G is a Food Service Specialist, a cook). The fancy “spy” classes are probably bastardizations of the name for the Army’s annual training on “spotting things you should report to the real CI guys.”

      • CJ Klaszky

        Nailed it.

      • Ranger Rick

        By his sizeable girth it appears that Mr. Tactical forgot everything he learned about nutrition.

      • Zapped 02

        I was hoping for a hunt for red October reference.
        Where is Alec Baldwin when we need him.

    • RageRifter

      Actually, I believe he isn’t allowed near Fayetteville anymore.

      • Zapped 02

        Lol.😉

      • Zapped 02

        Why ?

        • RageRifter

          I have no idea, it was in one of the other articles from a couple years back.

    • “Other Military training completed: United States Army Subversion and
      Espionage Training and the United States Army Operations Security
      training.”
      Once, when he was reporting for guard duty, the Sergeant told him to keep his eyes open and his mouth shut.
      That’s the full extent of that training.

  • “Use a real gun” is solid evidence that VODA is fully Pants on the Head Retarded.
    This isn’t even a question anymore.

  • Sua Sponte

    Can’t believe anyone would let this schmuck on their range…..He’s mentally unstable and a danger….unfortunately, in due time, he or one of his “students” will end up shooting someone…….and what’s with the two names?……watched a couple video’s, what a clown…”administrative reloads”?….”holding on to the magazine for retainment”?….Urban Sharp Shooters….*ahem*…bwhahahahahahahahahahahahahhaahh…..that was a clown show of epic proportions….E.D.A./ E.C.K., wait, sure that isn’t ETADIK?..

  • Anonymoose
    • BrokenTengu99 .

      So does my son . And he’s an adept marksman . Don’t be an idiot .

      • Anonymoose

        So does my girlfriend’s brother, and I don’t trust him around anything sharper than a boiled egg. Also, you should brush up on proper use of conjunctions and punctuation before you go around calling people idiots.

        • BrokenTengu99 .

          I couldn’t care less about “conjunctions and punctuation ” , as I’m not writing a dissertation . There are differing forms , stages and severity of Autism , idiot . So perhaps you should brush up on your views of autism before spreading your idiocy online .

  • fopenshooter

    i’ll bet his next video will be of having his girlfriend shoot desert eagle .50AE into a book that is covering his chest

  • patrickkell

    Lucien Black …. isn’t that a harry potter character ?

    • tsubaka

      Lucien = wasn’t the ice-cream guy that got false-arrested?
      Black = Si(e)rious Black?

  • Hinermad

    You know, the more publicity he gets the more he’s going to keep ranting.

    Don’t feed the trolls, guys.

    • stephen

      the more ranting means more crazy and dangerous stunts from voda.

      😉

  • jonp

    That picture is of him doing the W.T.F/O.M.G Drill.

  • Grey Beard
  • InfidelCrusader

    What’s with the pearls? Nothing inspires confidence in a firearm’s instructor like a guy wearing pearls.

  • Mike Lashewitz

    I watched a few of his videos. He should not be allowed around real weapons of any kind. Too damned dangerous to be around.
    Ever have a “scary teacher”? This one will get you killed.

  • Edeco

    Ha! Awesome, thanks.

  • Sasquatch
  • Spot On

    How to select a quality firearms instructor #23: if the prospective instructor is wearing a fake pearl bracelet, they are incapable of quality firearms instruction.

  • McThag

    As my clinically diagnosed as retarded son would say, “Me retarded, but me not that stupid!”

  • Richard Kennedy

    This man is going to get some innocent person killed because of his irresponsible stupidity.

  • TheChunkNorris

    “Ha Ha Ha… it’s funny cuz he’s fat” – Mr. Chow

  • Carlos Velazquez

    The only thing his list of credentials is missing to make him a more “certifiable” expert on firearms training is an appearance on CNN. Then we’ll know he’s the real deal because CNN says so.

  • GearHead
    • Rick Grimes

      How’s it look from the low end of the white distribution?

  • smee

    He is a friggin moron. The debate is over people, and has been for some time. Move along and let him do his derp by his lonesome.

  • Al Shartpants

    VODA = Visibly Owning Dumb Ass

  • cjsays

    Why does this guy have to be insulting towards someone else techniques? Use what works best for you. If my stance works for me; why should I chance to your stance unless changing to your stance works even better for me, My right hand is my dominate and shooting hand so why would I try to fight with a knife in my left hand and draw and fire my weapon with my right. That is to much muscle confusion without hours of training.

  • Donald Darr
  • Bleeding Heart Liberal

    Even I can tell that Lucian Black should never have been allowed to teach.

  • Bleeding Heart Liberal

    Lucien Black should never have been allowed to teach about firearms.

  • mikewest007

    Well god damn, when I thought you can’t be dumber than the Californian legislature, this guy showed up.

  • Donald Darr
  • Saint Stephen the Obvious

    Its not thinking “outside the box”, its making techniques that are dangerous to the shooter and others.

    You can make up all the outside the box techniques you want as long as they are safe. With that said, you obviously are not educated enough to know the difference.

    😉

  • r h

    is this the guy, who trained the guy who died with his son recently, to carry an unloaded chamber too?