Sig Sauer Responds To New Jersey State Police Lawsuit

Sig Sauer has released an exclusive statement to The Outdoor Wire in regards to the lawsuit filed by the New Jersey State Police that Nathaniel F. wrote about earlier this week. You can read his post about the lawsuit HERE to get up to date.

Sig’s statement confirms that they are aware that they are being sued by the State Police but goes on to say that they were rather surprised when they were notified of the suit. It appears that Sig was well aware of the reported issues that New Jersey State Police are experiencing with the P229 that they selected as a sidearm and have been working with the agency to determine a solution.

Sig goes on to state that the issues are limited to the training ammunition used by the agency, and the pistols function as intended when used with the standard duty load that was selected. Apparently, the ammunition that the State Police use for training is unique and presents some issues when used in the P229.

With the reputation for exceptional customer service that Sig has built over the years, I am certain that they will make every effort to make things right and ensure that officers have a firearm that they can depend on both on the streets and while training.

Below is the statement that was released to The Outdoor Wire. As always, we will keep you updated of any changes or developments as they come.

STATEMENT REGARDING NEW JERSEY STATE POLICE

May 21, 2017 – Sig Sauer, Inc. is aware of the lawsuit recently filed by the State of New Jersey regarding its purchase of the Sig Sauer P229 model handgun by the New Jersey State Police (NJSP).

The NJSP selected the Sig Sauer P229 handgun as its new duty weapon after conducting an in-depth review and exhaustive testing of available handguns. Sig Sauer developed a version of the P229 specific to the requirements of the NJSP, and delivered to the NJSP as scheduled in the summer of 2014.

Following delivery, the NJSP informed Sig Sauer that it was experiencing failures during qualification training with their training ammunition. Sig Sauer immediately began working with the NJSP to determine the cause of this failure and resolve the issue.

Sig Sauer’s investigation of the failure mode indicates a contributing factor may be a compatibility issue between this unique NJSP P229 and the specific training ammunition used by the NJSP. Importantly, these failures were limited to the training ammunition used by the NJSP, and the P229s functioned when using their duty ammunition.

Sig Sauer had been diligently working with New Jersey officials to resolve the issues associated with the P229 handguns it purchased. In light of these discussions, Sig Sauer was surprised that New Jersey filed a lawsuit. Sig Sauer is committed to customer satisfaction, and stands ready to continue these discussions and work with NJSP to reach an equitable solution.





Patrick R

Patrick is a Senior Writer for The Firearm Blog and Co-Director for TFBTV. He is a verified gun nerd and also podcasts at The Firearms Podcast. With a lifelong passion for shooting, he has a love for all types of firearms, especially overly modified plastic handguns, precision rifles, and AR based things. You can follow Patrick on Instagram @tfbpatrick, Facebook, or contact him by email at tfbpatrick@gmail.com.

The above post is my opinion and does not reflect the views of any company or organization.


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  • Herp

    Don’t they like doing malfunction drills?

    I’d call it a feature, not a bug, unless it plain won’t cycle the load.

  • EzGoingKev

    MA only dumped them after their bad experience. I guess they got off easy. LOL

  • BattleshipGrey

    Thanks Sig for using this press release to inform other P229 users which practice ammo to avoid….wait… it’s not there.

    Actually, in this form, the auto hot link of “training ammunition” takes you to Midway USA’s sales page for 300blk training ammo.
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/fd29e98ccd9146650d3689c3cffb8fcc237b1429caf1b2d18c355d074f27d0a2.jpg

    • Rob

      The ammo being used for training was Speer Lawmen 124gr FMJ.

      There were no issues in previous P228 pistols or the current Glock pistols.

      I would expect any of my pistols to shoot Speer Lawmen just fine.

      • Nick

        Speer Lawman has never given me any problems. If they were using Winchester White Box or Federal/Blazer aluminum case I could see it. I wonder what it is about that ammo that’s not agreeing with the 229’s?

        • RonHat10

          I wonder what Sig did to make the 229’s meet their requirements.

        • Jay B

          I can shoot crappy tula from my 226. I don’t see any difference if it were a 229. I think these idiot jamokes are trying to back out of a contact and invent an issue. I call b.s. I grew up near Jersey. They are one of the most crooked states politically there in the Northeast. I am astounded that Henry still hangs on in that wretched state.

          • Starvem out

            I won’t purchase Henry products because of it. I generally try to not buy ban state manufactured items, although sometimes its very hard not too. Savage offers to much value for me to not purchase their wares. Other than an occasional S&W, or Savage, I don’t spend my monies there.

          • Tom Currie

            That’s possible, but let’s also remember the NJSP selected the Sig P229 after extensive testing. But the reason they were looking to select a pistol at all was because they were having problems with their issue S&W pistols…. which (surprise, surprise) also had excessive FTE issues for NJSP, although no one else seems to have experienced the same issue with either pistol.

          • BigR

            Stay out of Pennsylvania, the cops are all crooked, and the Judges aren’t worth a s**t either! Remember “CASH FOR KIDS”!

          • Jay B

            Haha, yeah
            I grew up n Bucks co. Yeah Pa cops are largely in the take too

    • Nashvone

      Let your cursor hover over the link for a few seconds. If “Added by VigLink” pops up, it’s an advertisement link. If it doesn’t pop up, the link is legitimate and will take you to a related article or website.

  • thedonn007

    They must be using a real weak load for the pistol to be malfunctioning like this.

    • albaby2

      Or limp wristed shooters

  • Bigg Bunyon

    Typical corporate stooge rhetoric. My guess is the parties will settle out of court and announce just how much they still love each other.

  • john huscio

    NJSP already switched to gen4 g19s….so there isn’t anything sig can really do.

    • Juggernaut

      Glock is a perfect cop gun as both are totally L A M E.

  • Shankbone

    My father-in-law ordered a Sig AR, unboxed it, took it to the range, and fed it Tula. The rifle had feeding and ejection issues with its diet of Tula, so he sent the rifle back to Sig after struggling through 15 rounds. I tried to save him some postage stamps, I did.

    • Juggernaut

      Tula is absolute garbage and should only be fed to AKs

    • BillC

      This is why a lot of companies make stupid large gas ports to function with the bottom of the barrel ammo that consumers use, which ends up with the result of rifles being overgassed with quality ammo.

      • JumpIf NotZero

        “Won’t run Tula” is actually the sign of a decent AR.

        • Mrninjatoes

          It actually is!

        • Person

          Yes, there was no convincing my FIL to try another brand of ammo.
          “But my Windham shoots this stuff just fine.” We don’t shoot much together.

        • Shankbone

          Yes, there was no convincing my FIL to try another brand of ammo.
          “But my Windham shoots this stuff just fine.” We don’t shoot much together.

    • Mystick

      Tula is notoriously poor ammunition for gas-operated systems – especially AR’s. It’s dirty and the cases aren’t the best, dimensionally. It’s one of those “education through experience” things that many, many AR owners go through.

    • Mrninjatoes

      Not a surprise. A mil-spec Ar-15 is not designed to work with Tula.

      • BigR

        I won’t use Tula in any of my weapons. I value my guns!!!

    • valorius

      “Dad, weapons need to break in. Also, pop, don’t use crap ammo.”

  • Dave Y

    We should care about a gun company who is actively arming the professional confiscators, why?

    • Scott Goofus

      Don’t think that’s a fair argument. You could make the same case against any defense company building products for the U.S. armed forces during the Disarmer-In-Chief King Obama’s (may we never hear his name again!) reign. Business is business.

  • some other joe

    “during qualification training with their training ammunition”

    Maybe I’m just lucky to work for an organization that doesn’t understand what “training ammo” is (more accurately, training and operational ammo are the same items, just managed by different offices and paid for by different accounts), but this strikes me as WTF? You qualify with something different than what you carry, and will need to know if you have to use it?

  • JohnnyCuredents

    I’ll believe the problem lies mainly with NJSP; SIGs just don’t fail. I have a P-250 & I’ve put over 2000 rnds downrange, all kinds of the cheapest junk imaginable, hot loads & wimp loads, with never so much as a stovepipe. Dirty, clean, rapid fire, slow fire, doesn’t matter; this think never fails me. Now let’s talk about NJSP, their failures, their liberal corruption….

    • Juggernaut

      “The NJSP doesn’t know s##t about guns and we now wish we never would have sold to them”- Sig

      • Mr. Katt

        They know enough to confiscate ’em at every opportunity . . . .

    • Rob

      NJSP is far from the only organization that has had problems with Sig pistols. For Sig to change they need to stop being given a pass.

      Keep in mind that to P250 you cite as being reliable had massive issues by ALL large agencies that issued it. Both FAM and the Dutch police turned their pistols back in in very short order(on the basis that Sig was unable to to ensure quality of the pistol) and the pistol was dismissed from the ATF trials due to poor reliability. Sig’s official complaint: the trail put too much emphasis on reliability.

      Sig fail to to get the pistols to run on one type of ammo being used after 18 months. NJSP indeed.

      • JohnnyCuredents

        Don’t know about the FAM, but I’ve looked at the Dutch case and I think it’s bogus. ATF? Do I really have to say anything about that agency that every gunner in the world doesn’t already know? (Anyone else notice that all the complaints come from bastions of daffy liberalism like Holland, ATF, and New Jersey? Maybe just a coincidence, but….) I assure you, I don’t baby my P-250 and it is very reliable. There’s no need to ever wonder if it will fire the ammo I buy, and I bet my life on that whenever I carry the subcompact version of it.)

        • Rob

          So believe that it is more likely that there is a conspiracy against Sig on both sides of the Atlantic? Furthermore, you believe this conspiracy started after initial contracts were issued?

          • JohnnyCuredents

            No, I believe liberalism is a mental disease that affects one’s views in general, deforms them and makes living in a fantasy world possible. Witness the current hysteria and lunacy in blue zones across the US over an election. No conspiracy is needed where liberalism (America’s version of leftism) predominates; every facet of life is filtered through its sick prism.

          • Rob

            Be that as it may, what does it have to do with Sig pistols?

      • valorius

        My Sig’s have ALWAYS worked perfectly.

        • Rob

          In this case Sig acknowledged the problems and were unable to fix them after multiple attempts. I don’t think the function of your 2 Sig pistols was of much concern to the agency that bought 3400 of them.

          • valorius

            Every person ive ever known who owned or was issued a sig, including the M11 in the army, and several local agencies, all had excellent reliability with their Sigs.

            And then there’s the NJSP….I call horseplay.

        • Greg Houser

          I own 6 SIG 229’s,all German framed=2ea in 9mm,2ea in 40S&W,2ea in 357sig,Thousands of rounds fired,never,never a failure.Pay a little more for quality ammo,I find the hotter loads are a better match for my SIGs,feed them what they prefer.

          • valorius

            Between me and family members we’ve owned probably a half dozen sigs of various models over the years. They’ve all been outstandingly reliable pistols. Maybe Sig deliberately trolled the NJSP with reject guns.

    • Mrninjatoes

      Uh…the Sig P250 and the Sig P229 are very different pistols.

      • JohnnyCuredents

        Yeah, the 229 is much more expensive and reputedly a better pistol. The Chevy and Oldsmobile of SIG.

        • Sunshine_Shooter

          They are also completely different guns. More like the Chevy Cobalt and GMC Yukon of SIG.

          That being said, I had a P250 and it was a total beast. Ate everything I fed it w/o issue.

      • valorius

        I’ve had a sig P228 and a P229 and both worked flawlessly. And by flawlessly…i mean the literal translation of the word.

        • Mrninjatoes

          Were they made in the US or in Germany?

          • valorius

            One of each.

    • Nicks87

      2000 rnds isn’t really that much. My dept shoots that in a year and we’ve had more than a few problems with our 229s.

      • valorius

        We had no problems at all with our M11s in the Army. My father and cousin both owned sig 229s for a long time and theirs both worked great, as did my 228 and 229.

        Maybe the cops in the NJSP are just limp wristed jack booted thug morons. (the latter part is definitely true)

        • Scott Goofus

          Methinks you’re sneaking up on the true issue here. We’re talking NEW JERKSEY here.

  • Rob

    “Sig Sauer developed a version of the P229 specific to the requirements of the NJSP”

    I would imagine that working with training ammo is a rather important requirement. It appears that the NJSP agree with me. 18 months to get guns working with a specific type of ammo and Sig still couldn’t get it right. What did they expect? I would call the NJSP patient in this case. They are far from the first agency to have issues with Sig.

    • Personally I see two scenarios, both of them have the same issues.
      1. NJSP training ammo is a really light load
      2. NJSP training ammo is green frangible ammo

      In both cases you are going to have issues. Both ammo will often not work with a pistol designed to shoot +P duty ammo, at least not without cutting the spring rate which reduces spring life. And even then sometimes that won’t work as one spring wouldn’t be adequate for both types of ammo.

      • Rob

        In which one of those categories would you place Speer Lawman 124gr?

        • Speer has been known to put out a bad batch or two.

          Anyways this is all guessing based on a single filing and press release, if the trail moves forward each side will present evidence.

          • Rob

            In fairness, so is Sig.

    • valorius

      This is funny since i guarantee you could go buy a brand new Sig P229 or any used P229, load it with 124gr lawman, and it would work perfectly fine.

      Shennanigans.

      • Greg Gmann

        One or two pistols, probably, but buy 3000 and have issues with several hundred of them, unacceptable.

        • valorius

          I seriously doubt youd have issues with any of them, if we’re talking box stock P229s.

          • Rob

            Read the complaint.

          • valorius

            They were not box stop guns. The NJSP requested they have several modifications performed which obviously affected their reliability.

          • Rob

            Again, read the complaint. Problems persisted when pistols were replaced by legacy models and they even malfunctioned with duty ammunition.

          • valorius

            They mustve been the worst couple thousand pistols Sig ever made. The P229 is a pistol with a reputation for tremendous reliability, which i can say is backed up by my own personal experience.

          • Greg Gmann

            If you read the lawsuit, you will see that it was only a few hundred pistols. And they were able to get some of them to work with duty ammo, just not consistently. A gun would work fine and during the next test it would have a FTE. Your personal experience is not with a couple hundred different firearms from this batch.

          • valorius

            Like i said, mustve been the worst batch Sig ever made.

          • Greg Gmann

            I tried to find what the modifications were and couldn’t. What modifications did NJSP request ? And if they were the reasons for the malfunctions, how come the Sig reps and gunsmiths never mentioned anything of the sort?

          • valorius

            The mods are mentioned in other posts in this thread.

          • valorius

            how do you know what they mentioned anyway?

  • Brad

    Don’t buy a performance car and expect it to run on regular gas.
    Their “training” ammo should be the same as their “duty” ammo. The whole “train as you fight” thing.

    • CommonSense23

      Train as you fight is such a crap term. And even JSOC doesn’t use its hot 5.56 round for anything but operational use.

      • Sledgecrowbar

        If the difference between their “hot 5.56 round” and training ammo was enough that their rifles didn’t function with the training ammo, you can bet they’d either find different training ammo or use the real thing for training.

        • Rob

          The problem here is that the training ammo used by NJSP was not an unknown to Sig before the contract nor is it uncommon or problematic in LE use. Both the previous pistols and those that replaced the problematic Sigs shoot the ammo fine.

          If you asked a company to recommend (and in Sigs words “develope”) a specific variant to work with the ammo you use(Speer lawmen) you might be understandably upset when the gun doesn’t work with said ammo.

          Would you expect a pistol you bought to function with Speer Lawmen 124gr? I know I would.

          • valorius

            Again, i call total BS. I had a sig 228 and 229 and both worked flawlessly with 124gr Speer Lawman.

      • Brad

        Comparing NJSP to a “JSOC” unit, that’s funny. I can assure that in my 26 years of active duty (including a couple in a “JSOC” unit) that every time we fired live ammo in training, it was standard issue ball ammo. That’s the way the military rotates its ammo inventory, oldest first, be it training or wartime.

        • CommonSense23

          So you used nothing but 262 and 70gr in your guns. See I got a hard time believing that due to seeing how ammo is ordered.

        • valorius

          That is my experience too. There is not even such a thing as “training ammo” in 5.56mm in the US Army.

          • Sunshine_Shooter

            That’s because what the military uses as “duty” ammo would only qualify as training ammo CONUS.

            If someone tried issuing non-expanding projectiles to officers in the states for their duty ammo, they’d be fired for incompetence.

          • valorius

            I would not hesitate for even one second to carry M193 in a duty role if i was a US cop. From a 16″ barrel it’s still very good ammo.

          • Sunshine_Shooter

            Agreed, but once we move into pistol rounds ball is unsuitable.

          • valorius

            Agreed.

      • valorius

        In the Infantry we always used NATO spec front line combat ammunition for, well….everything.

        • CommonSense23

          And in the infantry did you have access to MK255, M862, simunitions, JHPs, MK262, linked ammo with IR tracers, M995, 80gr 5.56, 70g 5.56.

          • valorius

            Back when I was in none of those things existed, except M995, which was brand new and no one had.

          • Rob

            In the Marine Corps infantry we reserved Mk262 for overseas use. M855 was used for training and qualification. We rezeroed our guns with Mk262 in country. Even the CMC ranges I shot oversees we used M855 and reserved the Mk262 for the two way range.

          • valorius

            ..

    • Brick

      They use Speer Gold Dot 124gr as duty and Speer Lawman 124gr FMJ for training.

      Seem like decent choices to me.

      • valorius

        This is why i dont believe the NJSP claims- these rounds have identical ballistics, recoil impulses, slide velocity, etc. (assuming the duty load is not +P)

        • Brick

          Do you think the NJSP is lying about the ammo they use (might be tough considering troopers share that info) or that the malfs never happened in the first place?

          It looks like SIG acknowledged a problem and attempted to fix it unsuccessfully.

          • valorius

            I have a hard time believing sig made a whole batch of pistols that wont work with speer lawman 124gr considering that my own Sig 228 and 229 both fired the stuff with 100% reliability.

            So i suspect that they’re actually using some other type of ammo to save $, since speer lawman isn’t exactly cheap.

          • Greg Gmann

            Have you read the lawsuit? It is not all 3000 pistols that have issues. SIg replaced springs and extractors. Then blamed a coating on the barrels. Sig agreed to replace about 1000 pistols but couldn’t deliver. Sig reps were at the tests and had to pull 5 of 25 random pistols selected for testing because they were so out of spec the armorers flagged them. The FTEs continued with both practice and duty ammo. The pistols simply weren’t reliable. After 18 months NJSP said enough.

          • valorius

            Nope, have not read the lawsuit.

          • Rob

            That would probably be a good thing to do before commenting.

          • valorius

            Don’t need to, the “NJSP requested several modifications” explains everything here.

          • albaby2

            Why didn’t Sig try the Modifications and see if they would impact the reliability of the guns before they issued them?

          • valorius

            Sig engineer- “This is not the best idea.”
            Sig Sales department- “They want what they want. Just do it.”

            Would be my guess.

          • albaby2

            So they risked their reputation to satisfy the NJSP?

          • valorius

            Well, given that you can pick up any Sig 229 at any gun store- new or used, and it will work fine with 124gr lawman, it certainly seems so.

          • albaby2

            All Sig had to do was go to a range with the Police and a couple of their “defective” guns and videotape the defective guns with the same ammo the police use and the same cops that had the problems..They didn’t do that. Why? Also, that could have helped determine if the cause was the gun, ammo, or limp wristed shooters., Maybe females?

          • valorius

            We really don’t know what kind of testing has been performed yet, do we? That would come out at a trial.

          • albaby2

            No we don’t, but that hasn’t stopped people from forming conclusions.

    • Mrninjatoes

      “Train like you fight” How about, “Train for a fight”. Speer makes really good ammo. The Sig 229 is a dog. How about NJSP grow up and get a striker fired pistol like the big kids.

      • valorius

        God you sound like a trendy know nothing dweeb in that post.

        • Mrninjatoes

          So when you train for home defense, do you train in your boxers, half asleep, hair messed up? Train like you fight, right?!

          • valorius

            Always.

          • Mrninjatoes

            Then you Sir, are ready for a fight!

          • valorius

            And btw, my hair is ALWAYS exquisite! 😉

          • Mrninjatoes

            I don’t doubt it!

          • BigR

            You and valorius are cracking me up!!!!

          • roguetechie

            Tactical tubesock… Too hard to find boxers and my spare mags quickly in the dark.

  • Piraterider

    Sig should counter suit for defamation

    • Rob

      If you don’t mind me asking, on what grounds?

      It seems that Sig failed to deliver working pistols and are surprised when someone called them out on it.

      • Mystick

        The pistols worked fine. The user simply did not use the spec’d ammunition, leading to the failures.

        • Rob

          The training ammo was in use before and after the problematic pistols came and went. It is also rather common training ammo used by many LE agencies. It was Speer Lawman 124gr.

          • valorius

            Sig P229s shoot that ammo just fine. I seriously doubt that was the ammo in question.

          • Bill

            would ya just suppose that there is contract that someone is trying to get out of and avoid “breach” ? If you change words around …” I was just offered a better deal” to “your gun won’t shoot dirty ammo”. Just saying.

        • Scott Goofus

          Knowing that the “great” state of New Joisey is about as crooked as they come, I’m smelling something shady. Think someone took a payoff and bought some counterfeit ammo? Just speculating. I’ve never had any issues with Speer Lawman either. Or maybe they tried to go cheap and had Speer alter the ammo somehow for a price break? Or maybe it’s been on the shelf for 20 years? So many questions! And I still come back to the limp wrist theory. This is a snowflake state, after all.

      • Jay B

        There is no way Sig legacy pistols failed like that. No way. If it were 320’s ? Maybe. There is some shake out and time to be put on that system and I am sure it will be fine but 226/229’s are as buttoned up as any pistol system on the planet

        • Nicks87

          Nope. Sig’s quality has nose dived in recent years. Too many contracts to fill so their QC and materials have been seriously affected.

        • Sunshine_Shooter

          If you’ll read yesterday’s post, the Legacy P229s worked fine w/ the practice ammo and were selected by NJSP. Sig then delivered Enhanced P229s, which is when the reported problems started.

          • Rob

            The strange part is that when Sig later delivered legacy pistols the problems persisted and even manifested with duty ammunition. Sigs own armorers deadlined 5 of 25 randomly selected pistols upon inspection.

          • Sunshine_Shooter

            I thought those were ‘repaired’ P229 Enhanceds.

          • Rob

            Section 17 states that the legacy guns had malfunctions with both training and duty ammunition and they had to be pull from the acedemy class because of it.

            The NJSP also did want Sig to deliver more of the legacy guns. It was after Sig was unable to do so in the agreed upon timeline that NJSP cancelled the contract.

        • Rob

          The problem is that Sig continually changes the classic design. Every series of changes brings a new series of problems. The recent change to the long extractor is an example of this. After the rather unsuccessful use of MIM on the short extractor on p220 pistols they completely changed the slide and extractor design resulting in further problems. The changes are largely driven by cost savings as it is hard to compete with Glock when you are marketing a metal framed pistol. Not particularly Sig’s fault as they could barely make payroll before the changes when Cohen came on board. Unfortunately it doesn’t excuse their continued lack of testing prior to changes with often poor results for the end users.

          The 226/229 pistols at the turn of millennium were some of the best pistols around. It is hard to say the same about current pistols leaving the factory. The P320 is the way forward for Sig. It allows them to compete on price while still maintaining higher profit margins.

      • Piraterider

        The bad press will lead to loss of sales. The department wasn’t using approved ammunition which caused the failures. The department switched to Glocks which have ammo limitations as well. You can’t run lead ammo through Glocks. This was completely the users fault. You can’t go around suing companies because you’re stupid and want to run the wrong ammo. Just like you can’t sue Ford because you ran gasoline in your diesel truck.

  • Sledgecrowbar

    I think if there’s enough of a difference between your training ammo and your duty ammo that your gun doesn’t work with the training ammo, it’s not the gun’s fault.

    • Jedi5150

      Agree 100%! I’ve seen some of our training ammo that was so bad a Glock 22 couldn’t make it through more than a magazine or two without stoppages, and the MP5’s averaged 2 stoppages per magazine.

      • supergun

        Be funny if they did a Block 22 test on it, and Glock failed. But who knows.

    • RonHat10

      Why would you train with ammo you are not going to use in a day to day situation?

      • Rob

        Money and resources.

      • Sunshine_Shooter

        Because building skill does not require high quality, reliably expanding $2.50+/per round projectiles.

        • DaveGinOly

          It seems that NJSP spec’d the gun they wanted in such a way that it wouldn’t be capable of working correctly with certain ammunition. This is what happens when crap ammunition is used in a gun that’s been specifically built to a spec that requires the use of ammunition suited to the spec. It’s like asking for a diesel and expecting it to run on gasoline. It’s not the gasoline’s fault the engine won’t run. A normally spec’d firearm should and can run any old ammo. NJSP had a gun built such that it won’t run with certain ammunition and they’re now trying to blame Sig. Don’t guns bought by consumers warn the purchaser about using the correct ammunition for the gun? Is the NJSP unaware of this warning?

      • Goldcoaster

        Because NJ is a commie anti-gun state and likely most of the NJSP feel the same way so give them crap ammo to train with.

        • supergun

          exactly

        • supergun

          Have you noticed some of the commie anti-gun nuts responding on this page. Especially the 2 above at my comments. Makes you wonder why they are visiting this site.

      • Gregory Alan

        $$$$$$$

    • Nicks87

      Trust me it’s not the ammo. New Sig’s are junk, mass produced and made of poor materials.

      • alex drum

        Sounds good to me. I’ll trust some guy online who says “nah just trust me” over a company with a proven track record and an astonishing lack of hard evidence proving the guns are crap. Boy oh boy do you make a lot of sense. Yea I’ll just trust you.

        • Robert Rivers

          He’s not entirely wrong.. get your hands on a older sig and run it next to a newer version and you’ll see. Sig has obviously adapted Kimber’s philosophy of making pretty guns, advertise, advertise and advertise then let customerservice fix guns that shouldn’t have gotten past QC. This works because so many todays gun buyers are just buyers, they are not active shooters and never discover that their guns are malfunctioning or realize it’s the guns fault. When they do discover a problem they rely on Sig customer service or even better one of the few Gunsmiths that specialize in getting Sigs to run right. This is exactly how Kimber proceeded..
          I’m not likely to purchase any more new sigs but I’ll scoop up any Legacy models I find.

          • Mr. Katt

            I have a ‘West Germany’ marked P228 that runs like a Rolex (okay, a cheap rolex). Feeds, shoots, ejects anything marked 9m/m Parabellum/Luger. Can’t say much for the newer stuff.

          • BigR

            We have some Texas Rangers down here that carry Sig 1911’s, and they love them. The guys I know never have any problems with them. Of course, I’m talking about 1911’s, but I’m not familiar with the other guns Sig makes. This is actually the first time I’ve ever heard anything negative about Sig.

        • albaby2

          That’s saying the Chevy Vega and Ford Pinto were good cars because they were made by companies with a proven track record.

      • supergun

        We don’t trust you.

      • Scott Goofus

        That may be your experiences with Sig, I’m sure you have no reason to lie (unless you’re one of those Glock fanboys, lol – JUST KIDDING, guys) but mine are nothing but positive. Two 1911s, P226, P229, P938 – all function flawlessly, very tight builds, pull trigger, gun go bang, shell eject, new round in chamber, repeat ad infinitum. Not sure what more I could expect from my firearms. I’d go back to the Sig well in a minute, but to each his own.

      • supergun

        My Sig Sauer P-226 is the best shooting pistol I have ever shot. Better than my CZ, S&W, or the H&K.

      • CountryBoy

        Says the Glock worshipper.

  • Ryan L

    just a wild guess.

    NJSP & SS Entered a contract for legacy 229s, Glock came with a much lower cost after the fact. Sig failed to deliver legacy 229’s giving NJSP a potential out while emboldening Glock to slide in. NJSP tried to back out of contract due to breach/failure to deliver but Sig was having none of it. NJSP dug through some training data and threatened to release in discovery to avert court. Sig said bring it. It has been brung and here we are.

    • Rob

      “Just a wild guess”

      That was spot on.

      • Renato H M de Oliveira

        “Wild guess” as in “I saw the shooter and the victim, but the smoking gun is missing”

    • supergun

      Good explanation. New Jersey is one of those places that is weird with liberals.

      • Kevin Anthony

        you are an idiot

        • supergun

          You must be one of the liberals that live there.

      • Mikial

        Um, what exactly does that mean? Please translate.

        • supergun

          It means the “living dead” out number the Americans that live there.

        • BigR

          It means New Jersey sucks!!!!

  • Mystick

    I don’t see where NJ has standing here… they were knowingly operating the firearm outside of spec with improper ammunition and the producer, SiG, was exercising due diligence in solving the problem with the customer at it’s own cost. The judiciary is going to give this case legs only because a government agency is the plaintiff. An individual would not receive the same treatment.

    • Brick

      Just curious:

      Their training ammo is Speer Lawman 124gr. Is that really considered “improper ammunition” for LEO use? It’s not like it’s dirt cheap steel cased eastern bloc stuff.

      • valorius

        I don’t believe for one second that they’re having jamming issues with Lawman.

        • Rob

          Sig acknowledged the problems. Whether or not they happened is not in dispute. Sig and NJSP disagree on the why.

  • valorius

    It highly disappoints me that any gun maker would sell any product to any agency of New Jermany.

    • Greg Gmann

      I guess a $1.8 Million contract (plus accessories and parts) and bragging rights are hard to turn down.

      • valorius

        Sadly so. 🙁

  • idahoguy101

    If your pistols work with your duty ammo, but not your training ammo, how is it your gun’s fault? And how did the NJSP miss this in their selection process? Ans why would anyone assume if the NJSP bought a different model pistol it wouldnt have the same issue?

  • Michael Glenn

    Winchester white box gave me a 25 percent failure rate in my 229. All other (Wal-Mart) ammo ran fine.

  • Risto Kantonen

    Firstly, i have to say that i don’t own any firearms nor do i work for any firearm company.

    That being said, i think it’s pointless to discuss this matter any further because what we have is nothing more than hearsay. We have no way of confirming any claims nor any technical details independently.

    We can only guess, and i suggest that we don’t go there to maintain the quality of of content on this website.

  • Jim

    Heh, it’s New Jersey…..what do you expect!?!?, reasonable common sense….NOT!!!

  • Language——–

    • gary

      NO, he is right, I live in NJ, its run by ———————

  • Robert Rivers

    I get a kick out of the way people are so willing to give Sig a pass on this issue. As an owner and fan of older Sig firearms I say bring on the complaints. Anyone that has had their hands on Legacy sig products and has a chance to compare with the stuff that flows out of New Hampshire these days knows the Sig has screwed the pooch and has no problems letting inferior products slip pass QC. As long as the Sig fan boys defend them blindly Sig is going to get away with it.
    If you really love your Sigs I suggest blasting them at ever opportunity until Ron Cohen feels some pain. Even if Sig eats the 3400 229s that went to NJSP they’ll still make out when they flip them over as CPO Sigs.

    • Rob

      It really is strange.

    • Risto Kantonen

      After reading the document Greg Gmann posted earlier, i have to agree with your statement. This looks like a case of major mismanagement, gross negligence of quality control and dishonesty.

    • Jay B

      I can agree with that. I believe there is CYA from both sides though. I think a little heat on Cohen will get the QA/QC Dept a kick in the pants. Let this wake SIG up. I own 2 226’s a 556 , like the Swiss 551 and a 556 sbr. They are flawless. Never hiccup. But I am sure there are people out there who get duds, they are on YouTube. All told SIG has fumbled the release of the MCX and it’s auto regulating gas block and 300 carrier, and the early p320’s with a week extractor spring. That should not happen. Those systems rock now but darn it guys, get it right the first time.

  • Sean H

    The training ammo was not Spear, that’s their carry ammo. The training ammo is actually a mix of steel case and cheap reloads 115gr that are bought bulk at a considerable savings. However, when you buy cheap you get cheap results. Sig brought this to the attention of NJDOJ.

  • Django

    Any gun worth it’s salt should be able to DIGEST steel ammo at an adequate rate of success . If they CANNOT digest steel cases reliably then they have issues.

    That is a red flag!

  • Clay Autery

    CHEAP, low-power, training ammo…. put in a lighter recoil spring….

    OR the cases were out of spec.

  • Goldcoaster

    Wonder if the NJSP uses training ammo with plastic loads or something equally stupid.

    • Or frangibles, for safety? Frangibles are significantly lighter than JHPs, generally…

  • JStalin

    Sig’s great customer service?!! I bought the p238 when it first came out constantly had jams was told to break it in. Put 700 rds of various makes, tried multiple mags got a jam every mag. used different oils still jammed. Sent it in to sig 3 times. They mailed it back to the wrong address the last time then told me too bad talk to my local LE have them get it back. The address they sent it too was an apartment the people signed for it then moved. Called sig I was told they had shot show and were too busy to deal with me. I called every day for 6 months until they replaced my gun. As soon as I got the new one I sold it. I also had a sig 556, metal was soft bolt got chewed up after 2,000 rounds the holo sight they gave me on that rifle was a waste I paid an extra $200 for the holo package. the sig marked sight had the lens fall out when I had the gun in the car on a hot summer day. Sigs quality is no longer there. I’ll never own one again.

  • Rufus

    Failures using training ammunition sounds like a perfect training scenario! That’s where you want to practice your failure drills!!!

  • FT

    Back when I was a LE Firearms Instructor, we had to use only the “Duty” ammo for qualifications. Any other ammo voided the officers qualifications.Some ammo just doersn’t function as the duty ammo and that can cause problems. Its all about saving money so they allow “cheaper” ammo to be used.This is not an area to try to cut costs.

  • BeenThereDoneThat

    The way NJ is going with their gun laws/issues, their next duty gun will be “NERF”!!!

  • mb

    NJSP hate guns, so any opportunity to disparage a gun manufacturer is fun for them.

    • J.E.Walker

      Seems that way, doesn’t it?

    • BigR

      NJSP sucks big time anyway!!!!!

  • Jordice

    I reload and include some low pressure rounds that I know will create a malfunction (stove pipe) so I can practice clearance drills. That should be part of the qualification for any police officer.

    • albaby2

      limp wrist shooting also can cause failure to eject.

      • BraveNewWhirled

        As the increase in PajamaBoy continues unabated, it would stand to reason some may make it to the police forces.

  • Eric Blatter

    I have yet to see any firearms manufacturer 100% guarantee any firearm for both duty and low pressure training ammunition. The pressure levels in the two types are dramatically different and I can think of no pistol that will function with both types of ammunition without at least changing out the recoil spring. I sort of doubt any Glock would be better in the same circumstances.

    • Heck, Glock had THE SAME EXACT ISSUE with a Florida department not too long ago.

  • Corey

    I’m guessing NJ’s weird liberal leadership with little moral accountability probably have something to do with this nonsense. As I suspected it was the “training ammunition,” and a custom development. Given the fact that it’s custom, I don’t think any manufacturer would refund a large custom order. Sometimes it’s better to not meddle with a recipe that works, and try not to reinvent the wheel unless you are willing to invest the time and money into the process to become an expert. Clearly NJ Police did not research the custom modifications and ammunition. One would think this combination wouldn’t be too complex however, it’s difficult to improve the P226 and P229 without potentially causing issues. Even the Legion model made the original P226 Legion less reliable than the military model variant of the P226, the MK25. I believe it was due to the refined trigger job, versus the MK25’s milspec nuances.

  • Jason Lewis

    Just give em Glocks.

    • Eric Blatter

      I’ll bet money they won’t work any better.

      It’s the ammunition, not the gun. And I’ll just bet you don’t re-load and have never used low pressure ammunition in your “Glock.”

      • Jason Lewis

        Reloading is something I do. I have reloaded .40 S&W down so low I’ve gotten less recoil than weak 9mm and Glocks continue to function. I really don’t think any manufactures reload ammunition so weak that a Glock, M&P or Sig P320 wouldn’t function. I don’t know if I hit a nerve with the P229 but I think any gun that is going to be used for combat needs to function with everything including the cheapest ammo out there.

  • Mikial

    First off, I’m not a Sig owner but I like Sigs and think they’re great guns. In fact, my wife wants one for Christmas this year. But, my understanding is that Sig corrected the problem by replacing the slides and other parts. If the problem could be corrected by modifying the gun itself, then there might be some veracity to the claim that there was a problem with the guns. However, knowing Sig as a quality manufacturers, and noting that they have been working to overcome the issue, I really don’t think there was a need for the suit.

    As Mark Twain said; “Lawyers are like other people–fools on the average; but it is easier for an ass to succeed in that trade than any other.” (My apologies to any attorneys on the discussion).

    • Jordice

      I carried a Sig P229 in 40 S&W, it was a violent hand cannon and one of the best pistols I’ve ever owned. It is impossible for manufactures to time the action of a pistol to reliably shoot all ammo and still reduce the size of the barrel and slide for easy carry. You have to find the ammo each pistol likes and stick with it. This class of firearm can only be used by people willing to spend the time to be proficient with it. If they won’t do that then get a revolver.

  • Trevor_Phillips

    “blah blah blah…my gun is better than your gun”

  • Jimbo

    Shouldn’t they be using the same ammo for training?

    • They should be using ammunition that has interior and exterior ballistics that reasonably match their duty ammo. But, only someone who doesn’t have to worry about training budgets would think that using premium duty ammo for routine training makes sense.

      But, there are often other reasons than price per round to use training ammunition. for example, lead abatement on training ranges (because having your academy shut down and become a SuperFund site is not only more expensive than pricey ammo, it really screws with readiness.) Another is safety — and one of the biggest safety issues that gets addressed with ammunition is ricochets… and the mitigation of buying frangible ammo comes with the problem that frangible ammo and autoloaders DO NOT always play nicely, because the bullets are generally significantly lighter.

  • Richard Lutz

    One really shouldn’t be buying anything from SIG SAUER that is made in the USA. What is wrong with the much cheaper, simpler and more durable Glocks that are more reliable? Something to do with the more expensive pistols being a status symbol?

    • MichaelZWilliamson

      I prefer Glocks, but there’s nothing wrong with Sigs. The only problem here is NJ.

    • Some people really object to the Glock’s trigger — specifically a short travel, fairly light (unless you’re NYPD) pull, with no external safety to prevent what is commonly called Glock Leg. A DA/SA setup like the P229 helps mitigate that risk.

      Not to say Glocks are bad guns. They aren’t. But they didn’t fit what the selection board was looking for in terms of features.

  • missourisam

    The PD that I first served with bought such crappy ammo, el cheapo re manufactured, that several revolvers were damaged due to squib loads in the rapid fire drills. We finally refused to use the crap. I qualified for several years with my own reloads. I knew they were reliable, and I loaded them to the pressure and velocity of the duty rounds.

  • MichaelZWilliamson

    Bingo, Gringo.

  • MichaelZWilliamson

    So, the problem is New Jerky. Which most of us predicted.

  • Cesar Flores

    Mehhhhhh. A little bs on the Sig team. (Hypotheticly) If theres four new guns being fired with the same crap ammo and 1 of the 4 has cycling issuse with said ammo hows that the ammos fault ? Factor in their previous guns fired the ammo just fine. Maybe tighter tolerances than before and some break in required for this paticular model.

  • John

    To save money I reload with just the primer and now my reloads won’t cycle my new Sig, can I have my money back?

    I don’t think so.

  • albaby2

    So the Smart car is good because it is made by Mercedes?

    • alex drum

      I’m going to post the same thing again… You can’t seem to deal with logic or reason. “Actually it’s not at all… Because there was hard evidence those cars were terrible. Please just double check your post to make sure it makes sense. Please and thank you.”