Is The Pistol Brace The Gun Equivalent Of The Vape? | Gun Guy Thoughts

With all this talk about the ATF’s pistol brace opinion reversal, I got to thinking, has the arm brace become the gun equivalent of the vape?

Yes. It has.

Sure, pistol braces have a place in the world, I am not gonna dispute that at all. Some people don’t want the hassle of sending a notification to ATF about taking an SBR into another state when traveling and those who legitimately need the brace to be able to shoot an AR pistol, there is nothing wrong with that at all. Do I care if you are cheeking, shouldering, or keestering your brace? Nope. Enjoy your brace as you see fit, just don’t break the law and don’t be a jerk about it.

Where my and many others get a bit annoyed when it comes to the topic is the jack wagons that feel the need to scream from the mountain tops that the brace is a way around NFA laws. There is no reason to use a good thing to thumb your nose at the ATF. None.

The small percentage of what I like to call ‘bro shooters’ are the group of people that have turned any conversation about the brace into an annoyance on par with those bros that vape in a hospital, and when confronted reply with “Relax bro, it’s just vapor.”

With many of the shooters that I know and others that I have talked to, feelings about stabilizer enthusiasts seem to be shared by most. Heck, even recent comments on Nick C.’s article where he gathered several determination letters from the ATF in regards to braces echo this sentiment. You can read that post here, but the comments really echoed the same message, to stop talking about the legalities of the brace and quit poking the bear.

Can we all just agree to leave the legalities to those with the background to properly interpret them and use some common sense? Not only would it be for the good of the industry, but it also annoys people a whole lot less.

Also, if the words “Relax bro, it’s just a brace” come out of your mouth, you might be the problem.

Patrick R

Patrick is a Senior Writer for The Firearm Blog and TFBTV Host. He likes guns and has liked shooting guns for as long as he can remember. You can follow Patrick on Instagram @tfbpatrick, Facebook, or contact him by email at

The above post is my opinion and does not reflect the views of any company or organization.


  • The Dude

    Agreed, braces are for vapers.

    • USMC_grunt2009-2013

      Yeah, well, that’s just like, your opinion maaaan.

  • Rick O’Shay

    Wow. I guess I’m one of those guys. It’s literally just a brace. Why the f*** are we still discussing this ad nauseam?

    • Vitsaus

      For the clicks my friend… for the clicks.

      • Rick O’Shay

        I swear. I might as well just go back over to TTAG, this nonsense…

        • Tim

          Don’t forget your “field notes”. They’re required now.

          • Aerindel Prime

            Yeah, what the hell is with that anyway?

          • Rick O’Shay

            It’s the trendy thing.

    • tazman66gt

      Because certain people are pissed they paid $200 and had to register their firearm over something they could have done a different way and still be completely legal without having to jump through the hoops.

      • Wow!

        Long ago, someone once told me the NFA participants would be the strongest proponents of gun control. Back then I laughed, but now I see he was right.

  • car54

    So quit talking about it. People who are going to do it are going to. People who think the boogyman is going to jump out of their closet and get them will continue to ramble on ad nausem.

    • Ebby123

      Websites run on clicks. Clicks = Traffic, Traffic = Ad Revenue, Ad Revenue keeps the lights on and pays the salary of the lovely men and women who write the click-bait articles. 😛

  • BrandonAKsALot

    So, I’m assuming you disagree with Dugan’s antics? I think the most important thing is to know when and how to poke the bear. Sometimes it’s appropriate and others it serves nothing but negative purposes.

    • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

      Not at all. I didn’t have a cover photo for the article and Dugan is a friend. I sent him a text and asked if he had one I could use and as you might expect, Dugan always delivers.

      • SGT Fish

        jealous of your Dugan friendship. let him know we all miss his videos and antics. Id watch him do a video on vacuum cleaners. I got real hopeful for new videos back when they started get

        • SGT Fish

          getting added to full30

        • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

          I’ll let him know you have a desire to see him convert his channel to vacuum reviews. If he switches over, it is on you.

          • Jared Vynn

            I bet if he switches his videos to vacuum reviews they would suck.

      • BrandonAKsALot

        I very much enjoyed the photo and I think he pokes the bear in the most fantastic and comedic way there is.

        • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

          He is not the subject of my post. He just happened to have a funny photo that I could use.

  • Unfortunately the 41f, along with the extended delays due to the it has made it much harder to use the old “Relax, pay your $200, wait 3 months, and you can do whatever you want with your carbine.”

    Now due to the year long waits, the greater annoyance of being fingerprinted, et al it just gives the bracers more argument for their position. I’ve all but halted my NFA purchases/manufacturing due to it. But that still won’t drive me to the braces as I’ve already experienced the freedom that is the SBR.

    • Zundfolge

      Except that SBR isn’t freedom. If you want to take it across state lines (like to the annual Christmas festivities on Grandma’s farm so shoot with your nephews and cousins) you have to ask the ATF for written permission.

      • Just file one year transport forms to all the states you commonly visit.

        • QuadGMoto

          “Mother may I?”, government version.

          That’s not freedom.

    • Phillip Cooper

      The freedom to have to tell the BATFE when I’m taking my SBR over state lines, et al”…

      errr, what????

      • They accept one year transport forms.

        Also they will do rush transport forms over fax.

        IME the NFA branch is easy to deal with.

    • RSG

      Can you carry your SBR loaded, in the cabin of your car? How about concealed, on your person or in a backpack? Can you loan it to a friend for a week or two? Can you sell it privately? Can you gift it? What freedom are you talking about?

      • Yes
        Yes with a simple trust change
        Yes, two private citizens can do a form 4.
        Yes, see above.

        • RSG

          What state are you in? Most don’t allow a rifle of any length to be carried loaded in the car with you (only unloaded in the trunk). Same thing carrying it concealed on your body. And yes- I know it can be sold privately, but not without paperwork or the near 1 year wait for approval. None of that applies to a braced pistol. And there are 21 other states where I can carry it with my permit.

          • Yes it depends on your state. Check the laws of your state, as my post wasn’t legal advice. 😋

            Anyways you are still carrying a gun with a poor replacement for a stock. I’ve tried a couple of the braces are none are as stable as a true stock.

            The fact is that none of the options are truly free, because with a “pistol” you are limited with what you can attach on it, you have limited lengths of pull and other compromises. But you get the most freedom from compromises with a SBR.

          • Cymond

            Pennsylvania defines a “handgun” as anything with a barrel under 16″, so yes, a SBR is covered by our CCW permit.

    • Cymond

      How has 41F increased wait times? I know there was a rush before July, so they’re still working through that backlog, but I thought NFA applications dropped dramatically after that. The wait time should decrease dramatically after they get through the pre-41F backlog.

      • It depends how things work out. Trust transfers were always at least a couple of months faster than personal transfers due to the background check.

        Now a trust transfer involves at least one background check. If you have multiple trustees that might mean 2-3 additional background checks.

        And lets not forgets that we no longer have eForms which cut approval times dramatically because it reduced the burden on the data entry staff.

  • Max Müller

    The law is quite simple. It reads “shall not be infringed”. It was made to be exactly that simple so that no idiot could misinterpret it. But hey, apparently the founding fathers underestimated the power of stupid people in large groups.

    • QuadGMoto

      On the other hand, they were well aware that there would be willful violation of the Constitution and that it can only be enforced by We the People, and that we have to be behaving ourselves.

      “We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
      — John Adams, 1798

      They fail to understand that simple wording only because they refuse to accept it.

  • Nimrod

    On the other hand, continuing to poke the bear might just get ATF to decide that there it’s time to repeal/replace the antiquated NFA with something more attuned to modern times. The more accepted and mainstream; the more it becomes just a distinction and not a difference, the more likely the laws will change. As the ATF chief operating officer noted in his January White Paper to the Trump administration, suppressors don’t contribute to crime, surely the same can be said for SBRs and pistols with braces. Excercising ones rights is what makes them stronger. Hiding in the closet does nothing.

    • Frankly that is not doing to happen. I think the best case scenario we can expect is the HPA.

      Talking with a NRA lobbyist the issue is how the issue is seen by the people. People see sawed off guns as something that only criminals use. Which unlike self defense, which most people acknowledge is proper, we would have a huge uphill fight to change that impression. Without that it would be hard to get legislators to support the change.

    • Esq. in AZ

      I don’t think “poking the bear” will work. The ATF doesn’t have legislative powers, that’s reserved to congress. Their only role is to enforce underlying federal legislation, albeit with the power to enact regulations to further the purposes of that law. Any changes or repeal of the NFA has to come from congress. You want change? Pressure your federal representatives.

      Think about how (state) legislation with regards to marijuana is changing – it’s happening due to a change in public opinion, lobbying, and pressure on legislatures, not from individuals “exercising their rights” by consuming an otherwise illegal substance.

      • Cymond

        The lobbying, and change in public opinion, comes indirectly from the huge number of people who do consume it.

        • Esq. in AZ

          Maybe. But it might be the other way around…more people consume it (and lobby) as a result of changing opinions. My personal opinion is that use has gone up as it’s become clearer that the risks and harm associated with use have been vastly overblown. But who knows, maybe there’s a NIDA study out there that’s on point.

          • Wow!

            Its harm is well known and proven, it has a short half life but it causes lasting damage. The issue is that people are not good at assessing mental damage superficially. The brain is plastic meaning damaged neurons can be bypassed if necessary. Extreme surgical procedures like hemispherectomy outlines this point. This plasticity tends to hide the damage of marijuana. However, sooner or later the brain runs out of alternative pathways and damage becomes superficially apparent, but by that time it is too late. We are getting a lot more driving accidents by those with marijuana usage histories, not to mention the existing data of criminals who use it. All you got to ask yourself is this, why do people consume it, and how is it causing those “desirable” effects that cause people to be addicted?

      • car54

        Actually poking the bear works. At least it did on Lexington Green and Concord Bridge. Of course there are consequences as a result which is the reason we don’t speak with stupid english accents.

        • Esq. in AZ

          If you’re talking about “overthrowing the bear,” sure. But that’s a different discussion than creating change within the system we have now.

        • USMC_grunt2009-2013

          Yeah, genius, if you’re thinking of attempting to overthrow the federal government (good luck buddy), my advice is maybe don’t announce it on the Internet first. 😉

    • Russ Kell

      ATF respond to modern public sentiment?



      If they did, I’d expect the opposite…ban everything because, guns.

    • Ebby123

      Let them try. They couldn’t even ban M885 ammo.
      We grossly over-estimate their interest, and their capabilities.

  • SP mclaughlin

    If Dugan just posted an annual video of him going to SHOT Show, the world would be a better place.

    • DW

      Got to be afg

    • Paul Epstein

      Bumpfire stocks. It’s clear that some people are having a lot of fun using them… but they’re just *dumb*.

      • Fidget spinners are now sold at my local gas station as of a few days ago.

        • Major Tom

          They showed up around my neck of the woods like 2-3 weeks ago.

          I have no bloody idea what they are.

          • Cymond

            They’re literally a pocket toy to play with. Most of us would probably play with a knife, click pen, keychain tool, or some other party of our “EDC”.

          • Major Tom

            I prefer multi-tools, key carabiners, knives (usually foldables) and rocks or sticks as my fidget toys when bored and I have nothing else on me.

          • Wow!

            Lol, last month some kids were playing with one of those at the train station and I thought it was an emerson karambit. I was about to pull out mine to join the fun and trade tricks before I realized it was a toy.

            “Hey kids, want to see my knife?” not creepy in the slightest. Although back in the day when strangers could be trusted more this guy showed me cool zippo tricks. I never smoked but I do have a treasured zippo lighter I fool around with every so often.

        • Ebby123

          I iterally cannot understand their purpose… at least the toys from my childhood were part of a game. As far as I can tell the only goal of a fidget spinner is “Look – something shiny!”

          Its a free country I suppose..

          • Jonathan Ferguson

            They were invented for children with ‘learning difficulties’, I believe.

          • gusto

            and it is completely BS that they work as intented, just a marketing ploy

          • iksnilol

            I don’t have a fidget spinner but it looks kinda neat. I mean, it spins around.

            I occasionally have a toy on my keychain (got one really cool one, it’s a small gear shifter).

          • BillyOblivion

            The origin is with kids “on the spectrum”. If you give them a small, innocuous toy to fiddle with it relieves some of the stress/anxiety and lets them focus better.


            Then other kids said “Hey, if they can play I can too…” and a fad was born.

      • Steve Truffer

        I want a bump-brace just because.

        • Paul Epstein

          I mean… that seems like it’s *physically* possible. Bumpfire stocks already aren’t connected to the buffer tube.

          But consider that, as a pistol, you can’t put a forward grip on it, so you’re pulling forwards on at best hand stops. You’ve got a shorter barrel so your hand doesn’t need to move very far forward to be in the line of fire. And since you can’t pull the pistol grip/stock back into your shoulder hard like you would with a bumpfire stock it’s going to be VERY wobbly.

          I mean, they are your hands to do with as you see fit. But I definitely wouldn’t go anywhere near that thing.

          • iksnilol

            You can put an AFG on it, which is basically a foregrip+handstop.

    • PK

      I miss his videos. He was so far ahead of his time as far as that sort of thing went! I still find myself linking some of the videos, such as the one about the Sten.

      • James Earl Jones

        Or the MP5SD… I still show that video to anyone who will watch it.

    • Edeco

      Those things with the laser and the can that knocks itself over.

  • Some Rabbit

    If nothing else, this whole issue has demonstrated both the absurdity and un-enforceability of SBR rules. An SBR or a pistol with a shoulder stock is no more concealable than a full sized rifle. Nor does having a stock on a short barreled gun confer any greater advantage than a full sized rifle.

    • USMC_grunt2009-2013

      This whole issue demonstrates how absurd and stupid it is to try to prevent crime by the government banning certain things.

      You know, that’s how we got everybody to stop doing drugs. 😉

      • Wow!

        There is a difference. Guns do not increase ones propensity to commit crime (in fact it is a deterrent) while narcotics do. We can never find an illegal weapon holder until they make themselves be known, but we can find drug users because they do stupid stuff which is why drugs are restricted (and never made a Constitutional right despite prohibition being a hot topic). A free country only exists when people are clear thinking enough to weigh responsibilities. Narcotics inhibit the ability of the individual to be a free thinker, and makes them dependent, much like welfare, but on a biological spectrum.

  • Phillip Cooper

    Also, if you use the word “bro” several times in an article, you too might just be pat of the problem.

    • Jared Vynn

      Not sure if typo or intentional.

      • The Dude

        If so he’s smarter than I thought.

      • Phillip Cooper


    • Blake

      Considering the fact that he’s attaching an attitude to vapers that was concocted by anti-vapers I would say that he’s definitely part of the problem. The vast majority of my friends vape (as they used to smoke) and I have never heard that sentiment before. I do hear “do you mind if I vape in here or should I go outside?” quite a lot though.

      • Major Tom

        I’ve heard that mentality. “Relax it’s only vapor.”

        It’s not some concocted stereotype.

      • Phillip Cooper

        Count me in as one of those. I never smoked cigs but the occasional cigar (and I still do on social ocassions). Vaping is much more pleasant, and completely without health impact.

        • Blake

          That’s another infuriating thing surrounding vaping. The lobbying group that launched a massive smear campaign about vapes, including the now infamously-bullshit “study” about them releasing cyanide (or whatever ridiculous chemical they said vapes produced).

        • BillyOblivion

          > and completely without health impact.

          That we don’t know yet, although it’s almost certainly to be less than smoking. It will likely depend on what chemicals are mixed in.

          • Phillip Cooper

            Being that propylene glycol is often used to sterilize air, and in eye drops, inhalable drugs (albuterol, et al), and is one of the main ingredients in e-liquid, yes, I’d say there’s darn good proof and science to my assertion.

            Much the same for vegetable glycerin, another common chemical in them.

            Additionally.. plain old water. Do I REALLY need to illustrate that Dihydrogen Monoxide isn’t the ogre in the room? Don’t believe the hype, kiddies.

            Now granted, there’s questions about the compounds used for flavoring- the “popcorn lung” argument is often used (and quite tiresome). However, if you don’t go for the tremendous deep-lung hit, this shouldn’t be an issue. Smoke them like cigars, should be just fine.

            Of course then folks want to talk about that horrible carcinogen (“cancer causer”, in case you don’t know the word).. nicotine. Except, no. It doesn’t. Nicotine isn’t any more harmful than caffeine. Can it be deadly in large doses? Sure. So can food, water, or air.

          • BillyOblivion

            I *literally* mean exactly what I’m saying–there is no hidden agenda here, I’m not trying to subtly fear monger or warn people off. I think it is clear that vaping is far less bad for you than inhaling burning plant matter of any kind.

            I’m not saying it *is* dangerous, and if I were still an active nicotine addict I’d switch in a heart beat.

            People *are* using them for drug (nicotine, cannabis) delivery today.

            But making the statement that it is “completely without health impact” is premature.

            It took us a decades or two to realize that ibuprofen had severe impact on (some people’s) stomach linings. Even to decode what might be a bit of additional risk of heart attack.

            People were advocating running for better health for DECADES before the evidence was in that for many it *doesn’t* improve outcomes and can cause arthritis. Right now everyone is HOT HOT HOT on Hight Intensity Interval Training. Wanna bet what the condition of some of THOSE folks joints will look like in their 60s?

            Medical history is, well, not exactly rife with this sort of thing but it’s far from uncommon.

            And yeah, the chances of health risks for people who “mouth” the vapor approach zero, and even if there are health risks it will probably be impossible to tease them out of all the other stuff in our environment .

            But I think it’s still too early to say “no health impact”.

  • QuadGMoto

    Oh look! The guy in the picture has a “shoulder thing that goes up”!

  • BillyOblivion

    This is 2017. We’ve conquered Polio, Smallpox, Rubella and dozens of other diseases. Famine is, outside of dictatorships, a thing of the past (and maybe the future, but not the now). In fact eating TOO much is easy, eating just right is hard. Slavery is gone, outside of a few middle eastern countries. Almost everyone has electricity and running water (well, in the US).

    “Hard” work today is running a back hoe, a bull dozer, or a fork lift. Not, you know, running a *shovel* or picking s*t up by hand.

    Which is to say those f*kers don’t have enough *real* problems to occupy them, so they create drama to fill their time.

    • The Rambling Historian

      Slavery and human trafficking in various forms is still widespread throughout the world including in the U.S. It just isn’t as obvious as old fashioned racial slavery.

      • Herp

        Slavery and human trafficking is absolutely not widespread in the US.

        To the extent it exists in the US at all, which is just barely, it is extralegal.

        I’ve been to most mainland states and Hawaii, and I’ve been to some of the best and worst places in many states. Slavery isn’t a thing in the US.

        • The Rambling Historian

          Of course it is all extralegal. Your subjective experience is irrelevant. I’ve traveled my fair share and never seen someone overdose, get shot, die in a car accident, etc. but those things happen every day.

          Do a little reading into the sex trade and human trafficking. So called “modern slavery” isn’t uncommon.

          • Iggy

            On the legal side, some prison work programs do come pretty close to wage slavery though.

          • The Constitution

            Of course, the 13th Amendment specifically continues to allow involuntary servitude as punishment for a crime.

          • Wow!

            Don’t to the crime if you can’t do the time.

          • Wow!

            That kind of logic goes both ways. The US is a very safe country by any relative perspective. I’ve worked for a while fighting human trafficking and the majority of the problem is foreign influence, not us. Even then, it is a pretty localized crime since it is not that easy to profit from and not get caught.

  • USMC03Vet

    It’s just a $200 tax, 6 month wait, and a trust, Bruh!

    Is NFA ownership the next form of elitism in the firearm industry now that fudds are all but gone?

    • Jacob R.

      Honestly, that appears to be the going way that I’ve noticed in plenty of different cliques within the community. “Two Form Tuesdays”, “Supressor Saturday”, “SBR Sunday”, “Full Auto Friday” and all these other silly little gimmicks are starting to be a little more common.

      I personally don’t understand the appeal of waiting 6 months at a *minimum* when I could just build an AR Pistol that gets the job done just as well as it would as an SBR.

      • Toxie

        Well, you don’t NEED a trust. Also, the AR pistol gets the job done ALMOST as well as an SBR. Not being able to VFG it is a negative for those of us that use ’em, and you’re kidding yourself if you think: brace = stock. A real stock is much better if you don’t mind the wait and the $200 bones, plus there are lots of NON Ar-15 guns that braces just suck for.
        Not sure if it’s elitism if it’s actually BETTER, IMHO.

        • Exactly those braces are ok for shooting from the shoulder. But a real stock is much better IME.

          • Ebby123

            Each new generation of braces gets better and better IMO. The newest ones are 98% comparable to the stocks they imitate IMO.

          • I’ve tried some of the new styles (including that blade one) in addition to the original SIG brace, the stability just isn’t the same while firing to me.

          • Ragged Hole

            A good stock will give you LOP and comb adjustments that are integrated, quick, and repeatable. How much does a brace, kak tube, and any other fancy attachments run? I have easily seen $200+ setups. Not saying it isn’t a decent option, just painting it for what it is and what you alluded to, an imitation.

          • Ebby123

            90% of stock do not offer comb adjustments. LOP is adjustable on initial setup for a brace, but not on the fly.

            My side-folding brace cost me $199. In comparison, a buffer tube setup for a CZ scorpion, with a buttstock would run $230 or more.

            For a more apples to apples comparison, to install a brace onto an existin AR-15 buffer tube, it costs about $100-$130 – about the same price as a mid-level AR stock.

        • Ebby123

          A real stock is much better.” he said subjectively.

          Its a question of value. Is a stock $200 + 8 months better than a stock? Most would say No, which is why braces have become wildly popular.

          Look at how many manufacturers offer a Brace’d pistol VS a 1-Stamp SBR. Its rare you find any of the latter as a factory option.

        • int19h

          The elitism is not when you say a real stock is better. It’s when you say that braces are completely worthless, and NFA stamp is the *only* way to go.

          Which, unfortunately, is a very common comment in various discussions of braces. If anything, I see that a lot more than I see what’s described in this post.

      • PK

        I agree, and I have NFA items. If there were any other legal way to get DDs, or silencers, or things like a PS90 SBR… I would. Even the slide stocks and binary triggers have severely dampened my enjoyment of most MGs.

      • Matt Robinson

        Because I want a vertical foregrip. Also, I like a long length of pull. But different folks, different strokes.

        • Ebby123

          Yup. This is literally the ONLY reason I’m considering SBR’ing a couple of my pistol PDWs. Especially for weapon systems that are intended to be tucked closer to the body than a full rifle, a VFG offers a significant boost in handling.

          But I’m not going to, because FTATF. I’ll put a VFG on when we repeal the NFA.

          • Ragged Hole

            Good luck on that, you only live once. If you want to SBR something just do it.

        • Anonymoose

          Just make a “pistol” with rifle tube and an 11.5″ barrel and you could put a foregrip and rubber cane-tip on there.

          • zardoz711

            ^this, build your own xo-26

          • Anonymoose

            Yeah, just remember that under ATF rules the flash hider doesn’t count in the overall length. A 10.5″ barrel might work with a Vltor A5 pistol tube, but idk. You’d have to assemble a gun in that configuration, or run some numbers on it to find out.

          • pun&gun

            Doesn’t it count for length if pinned/welded?

          • Anonymoose

            Yeah, but why? I mean, we are getting into weird concept guns here, but that seems kind of needless unless you’re trying to get a 7.5″-9″ barrel to meet OAL requirements with a normal carbine buffer tube, or something.

    • Blake

      No it’s not. I live in California.

    • Shankbone

      I hope not. This Fudd wants a Cool Kids Club Can or two for his budget hunting rifles. (I know that the entry requirements now include a custom rifle in 6.5 CM, and a paycheck’s-worth of glass, but I have to start somewhere.)

    • Mmmtacos


      I haven’t mustered up the will to go through the rigmarole in order to get an SBR or suppressor. Maybe one day I will, maybe one day I’ll be able to just do it without any fear of reprisal like I do when I go buy a gun in the first place: it’s just legal because why the hell wouldn’t it be?

      Hell, earlier I was looking at “SMGs”, thinking how it’d be a fun thing to add to my collection. Watched a video on a B&T APC9, thought about how I could get a brace now that ATF allows me to shoulder them again (thank you so much, ATF). Then I saw the VFG and realized I don’t want to incur the wrath of the ATF by making my pistol into an SBR– I mean AOW. Whew, that’s a lot of acronyms in one paragraph…

      I’m not (completely) morally opposed to spending the extra dosh to be free and clear– I prefer to do things right or not do them at all. I’ve just leaned more towards the not doing it at all part. For all the cost I can buy more ammo, pay for more range trips, etc. It just genuinely irks me that this is the way it is right now and that it has been for the past 83 years.

    • piotrus

      That’s unless you live in a fabulous place like Illinois where that’s irrelevant as most NFA items are verboten by the powers that be. Wouldn’t matter if they tripled the fees, did additional screening and extended the wait. IL residents simply cannot own SBR, auto or silenced items.

      • Totallynotalegaleagle

        Hey bud, it’s a few days late and you might not see it but it is legal to own an SBR in Illinois. It was legalized under the UUW statute back in 2013. You’re required to get a C&R license (just to appease the state) and then go through the normal form 1 or 4 process. I just got my stamp last week.

    • Anonymoose

      It always was. Why do you think it hasn’t been repealed or at least stripped down to just an open registry of MGs, yet? It’s all the super-wealthy OFWGs who own transferable MGs who control the NRA, GOA, etc, and they wouldn’t dare attack the NFA if it meant their investments would go down the drain.

      • Yep, dem ol’ crackaz dunn wanna keep dem proffable eneffay sheet.

        • Anonymoose

          Then there are people like Robert Farago, whose carry guns cost $6000, while most people can barely afford Hi-Points. Something must be done, comrade!

      • USMC_grunt2009-2013

        Yup. That about nails it.

  • RSG

    How is Dugan doing?

    • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

      Dug is doing well. Happy as a clam he says.

      • RSG

        I’m so glad to hear that. I think I can speak for everyone when I say that although we were all bummed he stopped making videos, there was a universal feeling of dread when we got the news as to why. Wishing him the best.

        • PK

          “as to why”

          Oh, no. I hope he’s going to be alright!

          • SGT Fish

            he said his MS was not the reason why he stopped. seemed more like a personal issue, hopefully not legal. it was disappointing. I know he was looking for acting gigs too after he stopped carnik con.

          • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

            It wasn’t legal.

  • Dr. Longfellow Buchenrad

    If you are one of those who says SBR > Pistol Brace, why do you care what people do with their braces?

    If you are one who says Brace > SBR, enjoy it they way you want and stop talking about it.

    Theres no point in talking or caring about the legality of shouldering a brace if you arent going to actually do it. Now that the ATF has said something between “Its legal” and “we cant be bothered” just have your fun and keep it down.

    Both setups have advantages. Weigh them out and make your choice.

  • TaxStampsAreForBitches

    My biggest problem is a bureaucratic entity of the Executive branch circumventing the non-delegation clause (Congress shall not delegate their authority to create law) of The Constitution by “re-defining” words and “re-interpreting” existing law. Tis a very fine line they are walking.

    The wording of the 2nd Amendment is pretty f^(%!ng simple. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land, every other law is beneath it, and those which are counter to it are null and void.

    So when you say,

    “Enjoy your brace as you see fit, just don’t break the law and don’t be a jerk about it.”

    I say, “I’m not breaking the law, as there is no law written defining what shooting styles/methods are acceptable for rifles…that cannot be equally acceptable for pistols.”

    • QuadGMoto

      You are legally and logically correct. However, we’re dealing with a situation that is equivalent to an 18-wheeler and a motorcycle passing through an intersection at the same time. The truck may have broken the law by speeding through a red light, but that doesn’t help the cyclist sprawled across the truck’s hood solve his new medical problems.

      • Wow!

        Basically all that means is be smart and don’t get caught. Wink wink.

  • Don Ward


    • PK

      For the lulz. Dugan is like that.

      • Don Ward

        I meant this article.

        • Don Ward

          I mean I’ve seen tortured analogies before, but Patrick’s has been undergone enhanced interrogation at a CIA black site in one of the ‘Stans.

          Patrick is torturing this vaping analogy like he’s Jack Bauer beating the secret location of a nuclear bomb out of a terrorist.

          If you wanted to bring up Vaping and apply it to Shoulder Braces, I’d point out that both are the subject of idiotic legislation trying to ban them by liberal do-gooders.

          But that analogy might make sense.

  • It would seem easier to pass legislation removing SBRs from the NFA before silencers, theoretically. We have the brace precedent and an enemy media that doesn’t portray short rifles (yet) as assassin tools like they do silencers or luparas. I think this should be pounced on by our side.

    • gunsandrockets

      Yeah, I mean if SBR/SBS are good to go in Canada, Canada!, then why not here too?

  • Blackhawk

    Actually, this is just another symptom of the perils to rule-of-law when the government wants to over-regulate every aspect of our lives. How many people obey speed limits – except where there is an obvious benefit to doing so (like in a school zone to minimize the chances of hitting a child)? Discover a way around an onerous and unreasonable restriction? Most folks are going to cheer – and go for it. But it is pretty stooopid to poke the bear.

  • Cal S.

    Yes, stop poking the bear. Also, most of the open carry community can be lumped in that category too. Too few of those individuals that OC do so for comfort/convenience and the vast majority of them do it because “It’s just open carry, bro!” and for the cameras.

    Everyone is a provocateur, it seems. And, oh by the way, if you disagree with their methods then you may as well march yourself into a concentration camp right now.

    • USMC_grunt2009-2013

      I don’t mind people open carrying pistols, especially in rural areas, but carrying around a long rifle all the time is just silly. And there are idiots who do that out there.

      • Wow!

        I look at it this way, few people train well enough to use a handgun well, and an ar in 5.56 has less overpenetration than any subcaliber. Carrying an AR pistol around isn’t that crazy of an idea. Heck, it is why governments invested so much in the SMG concept for all these years. Shooting a rifle is easier than a pistol, and a short rifle can be carried nearly as easily as a handgun.

  • Jeffrey Smith

    Who doesn’t have a pistol brace on their competition cloud chucking mod? Vape Nation Bra!

  • Blake

    I’m so tired of morons like this talking about vaping like they are anything but ignorant parrots. Have you ever actually met a vaper who said “relax it’s just vapor”? Because a lot of my ex-smoker friends did vape to quit, and none of them had that attitude. I’ve been to multiple vape shops with them and have never heard that attitude. Do you really not understand (especially as a gun owner) how pathetic it is to parrot something you heard online as something that anyone actually does?

    • Don Ward

      But bra! My tortured analogy!

    • M-dasher

      …..literally everyone ive ever encountered that vaped has said that……

    • USMC_grunt2009-2013

      I live in a college town and run into exactly that kind of asshat vaper nearly every weekend.

      • gusto

        heck I work with teens/preteen age kids and I hear it

    • Wow!

      Vaping is like the gateway tobacco these days. I mean, if you really want to quit smoking you just quit. That is how my grandfather did it. Stopped after being a heavy smoker when my dad was born and never touched his pipe even till the grave. Its a mental thing. Just make the decision to quit and while you will have the urge, give it a few months and your resistance becomes habit.

      • Blake

        Jesus where do I even start with someone this misinformed? I would highly recommend doing some research into addiction and the permanent chemical changes that are made to your brain. “Just stop doing it” is ridiculous and just plain condescending. Have an insanely small percentage of people done it? Yes. But that literally has nothing to do with the issue at large.

        No, no it absolutely no-way-in-hell 100% is not. That’s just mind-numbingly stupid. If someone started vaping without smoking first, why in the world would they decide “you know, this doesn’t taste enough like ass. and my clothes don’t smell enough like ass! I need to switch to smoking cigarettes!”. No one does that. No one. The “gateway” argument was wrong when it came to drugs, and it’s even more wrong when it comes to vaping.

        I’m not going any farther, other than to say that addiction doesn’t just magically disappear after a few months. Do some research into the permanent changes that happen within the brain with addiction please.

        • Wow!

          Opening a comment by calling someone else misinformed then basing your entire comment on your own hypothetical perception is more misinformed.

          Addiction like all of psychology is not a clear science. We have not totally cracked the mechanisms of the brain so it is a black box. Does the nucleus acumbens have physiological changes that may correlate with addiction through reward circuits? Sure, but correlation does not mean causation. We learn from ablation experiments that the brain is not very localized, and many factors are involve that leads to the whole. Biology, behavior, and genetics all affect each other. Behavior is that black box we aren’t sure about, which is composed of another circular relationship consisting of thinking, feeling, and doing. You can just decide not to smoke, and through willpower influence your biology to change. The issue is like any addiction, people either are naturally of weaker mind or believe they are of weaker mind than they are. Usually it is the latter. This is why anonymous circles and therapy is so successful, they don’t change people physiologically, but in mindset. What is everyone taught in military, police, and self defense? Mind over matter. If you make a choice your body cannot override your thoughts, it can only try to convince it with symptoms of the addiction.

          The effects of vices serving as gateways is not wrong, when it is repeatedly seen over and over in the histories of those who have addiction issues. Why do people vape? Vaping doesn’t serve a pragmatic purpose? It is to look cool. Why do people then start vaping when no one is around? It becomes a habit and habits is what leads to addiction. You get used to the idea of having a vice and you think nothing of adding another, thinking that you are in control. You may be in denial of this, just search up gateway “drug theory and addiction” and you will find plenty of research supporting the concept.

          Sometimes it is best not to underestimate the opposition and open a debate with insults, when your opponent may have a wider knowledge base than you think.

    • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

      Yes I have. I was sitting in an ER waiting on my nephew when I watched a vaper exhale a cloud and then tell the ER nurse to “relax, it’s just vapor” when asked to stop.

  • EzGoingKev

    Gun people are retards. They need to make sure everyone knows what way to screw them every chance they get.

  • LCON
    Tell me that is not CarniK Con!! I double dare you to tell me that is not CarniK Con!

    • Brett

      So Dugan approved it HURTS!

  • Justin Roney

    “There is no reason to use a good thing to thumb your nose at the ATF. None.”

    So we all just need to shut up and be happy with the little bit of freedom we have managed to gain back through a bureaucratic loophole, is that it? That’s what I’m getting from that comment.

    So TFB is now comparing inconsiderate douchbags that believe that others should have to breath in their nicotine vapors, to people that still believe we should be fighting for our constitutional rights?

    This is the second “non-political” opinion piece that TFB has written that has made me stop wanting to visit. If I wanted to visit a web site to be insulted, I’d just go visit MSNBC. Not that y’all care, but it’s really dissapointing to read stuff like this in amongst great content you normally provide.

    • Wow!

      TFB has always been this way. They are mostly libertarian leaning, aka liberals with guns. Totally agree with your entire comment.

  • Herp

    I will thumb my nose at the ATF whenever I damned well please, Pat, and FOR GOOD REASON.

    They smuggle guns, they smuggle cigarettes for profit, and they crap all over our hobby for no purpose at all. The alphabet soup is full of terrible agencies and the ATF is the absolute worst of the lot. The only good thing about the ATF is their incompetence. If they had marketable skills they’d look more like a legit cartel.

  • Ebby123

    I am not gonna dispute that at all. Some MOST people don’t want the hassle of sending a notification to ATF…”

    There, fixed it for you.

  • Screw the atf. Unconstitutional tyrants

  • Raginzerker

    Were did the brace touch you Patrick???

    • wetcorps

      Definitely not his shoulder.

      • Raginzerker

        Hahahaha! Comment of the day!

  • mazkact

    Soon, 511 will come out with tactical man rompers for the bro shooters.

  • Gary Kirk

    Now someone needs to make a brace WITH a vape machine in it.. So you can vape while you brace..

  • wetcorps

    I’m a bit curious about all this “poking the bear” talk.
    Does the ATF has people dedicated to browsing gun blogs and forum and making regulation based on how often people brag about exploiting loopholes?
    Do they discover these loopholes through googling?

  • KoyoteTan

    Maybe we wouldn’t have to know all the legalities of vgs, braces, pistols vs “firearms”, and everything else if we could just go to the damn range without some ass-hat who doesn’t pay attention telling us how to shoot our guns and tell us we’ll be gang raped in prison for 10 years after losing our gun rights for life. I know this stuff out of verbal self defense and the enjoyment of my equipment while surrounded by permission seeking un-americans.

    • KoyoteTan

      Case and point: right here on this blog and this article is linked another article claiming that everyone is “jumping to concussions” about the letter addressed to SB Tactical as applying to all braces (PSA: Critical Analysis Of Shouldering A Brace). People spreading that kind ill-reading-comprehension misinformation have to be answered by somebody. Even though the SB Tactical letter’s first paragraph clearly says it was too clarify the 2015 open letter to everyone, mommy-may-I article misinformers come out in force everyone we have good news. I’m just trying to help people take YES for an answer, that’s all.

  • Wrex

    Another slow news day, obviously.

    Fun opinion piece “bro”.

    What a waste of bandwidth, lol. Who the eff really cares? Spend your $200 extortion and wait for over half a year or so, for the “privilege” if you want…or don’t.

  • Ragged Hole

    Is that a Dugan Ashley sighting in the pic from the article? Wonder if it is a new pic… Crank Con was a great channel and it was sad to see it go with his health problems.

    • Billy Vegas

      it has to be him!

      • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

        It is him.

  • Sledgecrowbar

    I really think the whole reason they first came out with the ruling that you can’t shoulder it was because of all the derps bothering them about it in the first place. Once it had been illegal for a while, they went back to their original finding. Not that it made a difference in the meantime, people were still buying the living daylights out of them. Hopefully this all ends up with gun law reform to nullify the minimum barrel length requirement.

    • Wow!

      The letters have zero influence on the BATFEs rulings. Agencies literally do what they want until a lawyer or politician stops them. The letters are an excuse to try and get us to turn on each other and blame those who exercise their rights as “the problem”.

  • Caffeinated

    First of all; RELAX. This is an opinion piece. Everyone has one.

    I frankly don’t own SBRs but do have two AR pistols. For reasons mentioned already, they fill a niche for folks like me that live within 30 minute of three states.

    For the purposes of my response, I’ll divide the two braces into different categories. One is the SBX produced by SB Tactical which I will dub a Gen 1 arm brace. It is heavy, bulky, and difficult to use as intended by the manufacturer. The other one the Tailhook and sold by Gear Head Works which I will refer to as a Gen 3 arm brace. The Tailhook is lighter than most rifle stocks and has a similar footprint as an ACE fixed stock (and outwardly appears very similar).

    What is a Gen 2 you ask? That’s the SB tactical line of lighter and slimmed down braces as well as the “blade.” They still use the same construction methods and previous concepts for attachment to the arm. The SB line still feels unnecessarily heavy and cumbersome. The “blade” really feels like it could cut you if you shouldered it wrong.

    This is where the Tailhook shines. To use it; unlock a swing arm and hook it under your arm. It takes almost no time to use as intended from the manufacturer. As far as handling characteristics from the shoulder, the Tailhook also surpasses the SB and Blade. I literally can’t tell the difference between this and a stock in the shouldered position. More importantly for many firearms enthusiasts is aesthetic appeal. The Tailhook in my opinion looks far better than previous generations of arm braces.

    My only complaints about the Tailhook are:

    1. The tailhook uses a clamp and relies on friction and can rotated with enough force applied to the brace extension. I solved by drilling and tapping for a 10-32 screw to mount a QD socket and prevent rotation.

    2. Although the machine work and finish is awesome, the folding armature rattles (albeit not much) when locked in the closed position as I experienced during a steady week of UTV and truck use.

    Rarely do I think something is a game changer, but the Tailhook is just that. It handles as well as a bona fide stock should it “slip” onto the shoulder and retains none of the detractors from previous generations of arm braces.

    I doubt the author of this article handled the Tailhook. If he had, it might have changed his opinion. I know it changed mine as I didn’t particularly care for previous generations of arm braces before the Tailhook.

  • jim

    I’ll enter the fray and comment on SBR vs. Pistol with a brace: Pistol = legally concealable and legal to carry loaded within a vehicle. (at least where I live) Bam!

  • Wow!

    The law on the books says “shall not be infringed” you know…

    Lobbying usually doesn’t have that big of an effect since lots of politicians rely on special interest influences like colleges and and illegal aliens which give them that boost, but ever since Trump has been severely hampering the special interest’s sources of power, lobbying might have more voice.

    In the end though, voting is king. No point having a picket line if you don’t vote in the right guys in your local and state politics.

  • Ebby123

    If they had wanted, yes. But they didn’t really want to – not seriously anyways.
    Their interest in adding further restrictions is near zero unless the executive branch (under Obama) was breathing down their neck.

  • Patrick R. – Senior Writer