BREAKING: FN Protests P320 Selection By Immigration & Customs Enforcement

Full disclosure: This news has been out for some time but no one has reported it. 

It looks like FN America has stepped up to the plate this time to protest Immigration & Customs Enforcement’s selection of the Sig P320 as their new duty sidearm. Previously, Nathaniel F. reported on the selection of the P320 and how that will go a long way to boost the credibility of the brand, you can read his post here. Does the second protest for a large contract won by Sig have implications of a design flaw or is this business as usual?

FN has lodged two separate protests for the same contract, read the first one HERE and the second on HERE.

There have been rumors of a couple of failures with the P320 specifically failing the drop test as well as loaded magazines disassembling themselves when dropped. Below is the FBI drop test specs that the P320 has been rumored to have failed.

7) PISTOL DROP TEST

A) Three pistols from each class will be selected for this test.
i) Each of the pistols will be cleaned & lubricated per the Offeror’s recommended
specifications.

b) Each pistol will be loaded with a primed cartridge case in the chamber and a magazine
filled to capacity with service cartridges (54227).

c) The pistol will then be dropped from a height of 48” onto smooth concrete in the
following manner:
i) Muzzle down
ii) Muzzle up
iii) Sights down
iv) Magazine down
v) Right side down
vi) Left side down

There is no indication of what pistol FN America entered into the competition, but it has been rumored that their MHS submission was the FN 5.7 pistol. I am not sold on this, but there is no solid information out there to indicate otherwise.

With the new protest on the heels of Glock’s protest of the MHS contract being awarded to the P320 it starts to raise some questions. Either way, we will update you as we learn more about both protests.






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  • JumpIf NotZero

    Just for example… I might be inclined in this case to buy an FN gun if they would have released a statement saying something like

    “Congrats Sig! We are happy for you, we’re sure your gun will serve XYZ adequately. Here at FN we’re disappointed we couldn’t lower our price enough on our FNS models, but all the same we’re all happy for you.”

    Instead of “wah wah wah”. Which does nothing for me. It certainly doesn’t tell me they have a better product or lost the competition because of some arbitrary reason that doesn’t effect me as a typical consumer.

    Nothing about “let’s protest!” tells me they have the superior product they are confident in.

    • Shaun Connery Oliver II

      Here here, brother! Glock, FN, buck up, throw on your big boy pants and show a little class!

      • Gary Kirk

        Glock can’t currently put on their big boy pants, or any pants for that matter, because of the bandages and cast from the gunshot wounds to their legs..

        • Shaun Connery Oliver II

          Ha. Good one. Complement not insult.

        • JD

          That’s because retards like yourself have zero trigger finger discipline.

          • Gary Kirk

            What do you mean.. I put my trigger finger in time out EVERY time it acts up..

          • Seth Hill

            Ah yes, because there could NEVER be a ND with a Glock that doesn’t involve a finger. You know, like a leather holster folding at just the right spot to interact with the trigger while inserting the gun into the holster?

          • JD

            Lol learn to reholster and you won’t have such remedial problems..

          • Stuki Moi

            If this was real life and not the internet, would you call a police officer with a busted leg, who was simply issued a gun and a limited training budget set aside to learn it; and call him a “retard” just because he will be limping for life?

            Nothing “wrong” with Glocks per se. They’ve served many well. But they aren’t necessarily the lowest-consequence-for-making-the-occasional-slight-mistake design out there.

          • JD

            There is no slight mistake with glocks design. There are only untrained fools who like to blame the weapon for their blunders rather than recognize their own inabilities. Typical snowflake fingerpointing. The weapon does what it’s supposed to do nothing more. Learn to use it effectively or buy a gun with a manual safety. Or better yet buy pepper spray. You will be less of a danger to yourself and the general public.

          • Mel_Anosis

            If Glock had an optional safety, those prone to occasional lapses would purchase them instead of a competitors gun with a safety.

          • JD

            A manual safety will not help those who are prone to occasional lapses of the basic rules of firearm safety.

          • Mel_Anosis

            It will if you apply it before holstering.

          • JD

            If you have ever been to any class regarding firearms, and as an instructor myself, I teach, and any instructor worth his salt will teach, NEVER rely on mechanical safeties. For far too many, firearm safety is not an attitude. It must be performed and applied exactly the same every single time. When it isn’t, a mechanical safety is not going to make up for sloppy unsafe gunhandling. Mechanical safeties can fail.

          • Mel_Anosis

            I agree. Law enforcement and others well trained may not need a safety. Personally, I apply the safety when I am through shooting.

          • chrismalllory

            Yes, because if he is going to be using a tool, it is his responsibility to learn how to use it.

          • Prairie Patriot

            I’m not a coward nor does a government employee have the right to intimidate or harm me, because I tell them they acted dangerously and should not be in their current employment.

            Are you saying you would not tell somebody that they acted dangerously through their negligent handling of a sidearm? Telling that person the truth is how you correct the obvious flaw in their behavior. If a person can’t spend 30-50 dollars to go to a gun range and train with a tool of their trade, then they are not going to do well under mortal combat stressors.

            The act of intentionally shooting oneself in the leg, is the definition of acting mentally retarded. Negligent discharges happen because a trigger gets pulled by a finger or pulled by a improperly maintained holster.

            Or are you saying that you would be afraid to tell lethally sanctioned agent of the state, who has no legal duty to protect any American. The case of Warren vs DC, defines police as being financially codependent upon criminals being criminals, which means WE armed citizens are the first responders. A cop would not violate your rights, which you seem to be implying, under the color of law, right? If a cop became physical and assaulted a citizen for telling them the truth. That officer has crossed the threshold of qualified immunity and has become a criminal, and since they are armed lethal force can be used.

          • Havaneiss Dei

            I once got stopped and falsely accused in a state through which I was traveling; I explained what the officers had seen and they realized they had made a mistake and let me go.

            At the beginning of the encounter, they’d threatened my life, for no reason apparent to me (the main officer layer told me that I was traveling through a corridor notorious for drug trafficking, and my car fit the profile).

            I remained calm and respectful — and I volunteered for the guy to cuff me. At first he was incredulous, but I said I really didn’t want to get shot and I therefore wanted to demonstrate that I could not be reasonably deemed a threat.

            After a few minutes, he took the cuffs off and we had a friendly chat. I told him that I am a veteran, so I can relate to the stress of being in a place you can’t leave, knowing that the enemy is real and that he wants to kill you, and that either he or a boobytrap he’s left behind is waiting for you just around the corner. Only you don’t know for sure which corner.

            Some people can handle that; for better or worse, I am such a person. Lots of guys with whom I served just couldn’t deal with it, and they’d invariably do something stupid or illegal (or both) — all because they had somehow gotten themselves into a job they didn’t belong in, that they didn’t know how to leave.

            I said, “I realize that someone has to patrol the roads and that, just like everyone else, you need a job — but I also know that if you are afraid that someone you stop is going to try to kill you, it’s only a matter of time before you act on that fear instead of on the real truth of the situation. I don’t wish I’ll on anyone, but when that happens, either you’re going to second-guess yourself while some no-good perp guns you down, or you’re going to kill some innocent idiot like me — and as bad as the first outcome sounds, it’s nothing compared to the latter.”

            I don’t know how much of what I said affected him, but I insisted that he seriously consider a different line of work.

            Just stick to the truth and remember that LEOs are people — some are good, most are incomprehensibly bad (which exactly reflects the general population).

          • Havaneiss Dei

            WTF? My first regular carry sidearm was a 1911; it’s easy to shoot, but it can get the user into a jam with problems like unintended mag ejections.

            That never happened to me at the range, but it did happen to me when I interrupted a burglary; fortunately, I had the SA and reflexes to get it back together before the perp could get to me, and the arrest proceeded without further problem.

            I next carried a Glock 17, then a 20, then a 22. I used the 20 once, successfully, in a defensive action.

            My “training” was limited to “make sure you read the manual,” and two trips to the range. I had to buy my own practice ammo and pay for all my other range time, without reimbursement.

            I handed the Glocks every day (many thousands of times); I carried in various holsters and when I was off-duty, I occasionally (many hundreds of times) carried one in my pocket.

            I never knew of any person that I considered at least remotely competent to have a safety problem associated with the Glock.

            I carried the 1911 chambered on a few occasions, but I wasn’t really comfortable with that; I always carried the Glocks chambered, without any fear of an unintended discharge.

            If you don’t want a Glock to fire, don’t pull the trigger: it’s that simple. Nothing about firearms safety is recondite; sadly, competence can’t be learned: it’s a trait.

            You can train someone to be proficient in the art of shooting, but you’ll never be able to get an idiot’s head out of his butt.

          • Corey

            Many an officer has died due to this “lack of discipline” and your condescending statement pays no homage to those who have bled out from Glock leg. Not to mention the fact that your display of bigotry towards the intellectually challenged is classless and shows a lack of empathy towards those you believe are inferior to yourself. You sound like my kind of guy..

        • Pumpkin King XXIII

          Nope, that not it they put together thier best and brightest and they came out with a revolutionary new gun.

          It’s a glock 19c, hold on for this ground breaker it a 19 with a compensator.

          Mind blown!!!! Lmao

      • Rob

        Are you implying that Sig has more class than the other two?

        Out of the three companies one has struggled to deliver working systems more than the others and has gone back on marketing promises make to consumers multiple times. I’ll let you guess which one.

        • Shaun Connery Oliver II

          I am not fully defending SIG. In fact, SIG has been having a sickening roller coaster ride with quality control, Glock I am hearing is having trouble with their Gen 4 handguns, and FN, if(that is if) they are entering their 5.7, while great in low recoil and high cap, the disadvantage is that the gun let alone the ammo is more expensive than the two. I am not saying that the two have the least class but I don’t see that filing a protest is ever going to flip a handgun contract if ever. I would give all three a chance to straighten up and fly right in quality, performance, and price. So please don’t get me wrong on this one, but what good would filing a protest do?

          • JD

            Glock HAD troubles with their gen 4 weapons in 2010 when they first came out. By the end of 2011 they were ironed out. I personally have a gen 4 I use as my competition gun and I’ve got about 50,000 rounds through it give or take, and it’s always worked. The truth of the matter is, all of these manufacterers put out quality weapons. It boils down to price. Bottom line. Fan boys will come up with bullshit stories about the other brands, to justify their choices. The reality is, every manufacturer has bad products that slip past quality control.

          • SloopjonB

            I agree, My son in laws 40 cal Glock blew the top off his at the range while me and my daughter were wondering why we couldn’t get a full mag of shots out of our new 42’s. With all of my guns Glock is the worse. Son in law is an x agent and carried a 40 Glock on duty so thats what he wanted when he got out of that job so he knows them. The ammo manufac.. paid for the Glock repair I guess was a month out of warranty but not the load we got in our pants when the gun blew. Its funny I have a c9 high point never failed in any way its more fun to shoot at the range when they just shoot.

      • Sunshine_Shooter

        Smith & Wesson hasn’t protested the not-adoption of the M&P 2.0. Are you guys all rushing out to purchase one of those?

      • GOT12

        luckily even when sig pays dearly to win a contract most of us still have the option to carry our own glock

    • john huscio

      You do realize these “protests” are extremely common…

    • kalashnikev

      1) all awards are protested 2) FN is a great company, but they don’t care about your “inclinations”

    • RSG

      Unless the Sig actually failed those tests. Then, that’s a problem. And if it failed the drop test and was chosen anyway, well, that smacks of corruption.

      • Rob

        FNH did not protest the Hk CSASS award so it seems that they do not protest by default. That leads me to believe that their protest may have teeth. The fact that they logged two protests seems to indicate that as well as they have multiple complaints. If a protest is logged the testing results a protocols will become public so we will see in the end when the investigation is released.

      • john huscio

        Exactly how sig lost the Dutch contract for the p250

      • Havaneiss Dei

        Corruption in the US government? What are you smoking?

    • FarmerB

      Yeah, that would be nice and gentlemanly. However, the company’s execs have a duty to shareholders, and if there’s a chance they left some money on the table, they at least have to ask the question. And when’s the last time a lawyer didn’t say there was at least some chance of winning?

      • Stuki Moi

        It’s less about shareholders, than about lawyers, on both the FN and SIg side, pocketing as much of the total contract size as they can get their hands on.

    • Twilight sparkle

      Actually fn and glock would be stupid to not protest, last time the military awarded a contract to switch companies for their m4 manufacture colt protested and the military re-evaluate and allowed new bids because of colts protest and they eventually switched their contract from Remington to FN. (I over simplified that but you can see why FN and glock would really have reason to protest)

    • Seth Hill

      Or even if they had release that they are protesting due to the SIG failing the drop tests, if that is truly the case, which should have excluded them from being awarded the contract.

      Maybe someone like TFB could do the drop tests on a couple of P320s?

    • Colonel K

      How about the classic reply of polite losers, “It’s honor just to be considered”. I’ve never seen that either. It’s a cutthroat business where everyone would prefer to see their competitors roll over and die.

    • GOT12

      many companies make a better pistol than sig does

      sig is winning contracts with low ball bids and a inferior product because they know the average dufus will read sigs advertisement and think they must be the best if the military/police/whoever chose them

      • Mel_Anosis

        A local Sig armorer who works at my local range told me he thought Sig had more problems than HK both of which I was considering to purchase. That raised my eyebrows a bit.

  • Bid protests are normal these days, and a vast majority of the time nothing comes of them.

  • Phillip Cooper

    It’s a MODULAR handgun specification. Did Glock even bother to read the requirements? Or for that matter, the defininition of what “MHS” means?

    • CommonSense23

      Well considering Glock met the requirements for the program, I am going to assume they did.

    • JumpIf NotZero

      What!? We got backstraps that come off!

      • iksnilol

        And the butt plugs, that’s sorta modular, astagfirulah.

    • tiger

      Also they have to supply ammo. Another part of the spec not met.

      • Rob

        You do know they made it past the down select correct? They met the spec.

        I am sure there were no shortage of ammunition venders willing to partner with Glock.

      • CommonSense23

        Who do you think is supplying ammo for Sig, cause it wasn’t Sig. Sig had to be capable of supplying both ammo and suppressor. Not actually being the manufacture for such items.

    • Zack mars

      Glock met the definition of “modular” according to the contract

      • Phillip Cooper

        The contract specified the ability to change from fullsize to compact, and caliber. Which Glock does this?

        • Rob

          Interestingly the new 17m uses the same locking block and barrel hood as a glock 19. I wonder why they would make such a change….

          I am not even rooting for Glock but this missinformation has to stop. No one has seen the pistol glock submitted publicly. We need to stop pretending like we know what their pistol was.

          • Seth Hill

            Aren’t those 2 different models? That’s like saying the 1911 is modular since you can swap a commander slide & barrel to an officer frame.

        • JD

          Lmao ok sig boy! Smoke another one!

        • Zack mars

          I don’t remember the fullsize to copact bit, but the contract defined “modular” as anything from the SIG style, to having replaceable backstraps and an accessory rail.

          You can easily change calibers in a glock

    • Wow!

      Well the sig really isn’t all that modular. I think the real reason the sig was chosen was because they offered a handgun at an amazingly low price, which despite being a Glock guy, I approve of the decision. If modularity was the concern, sticking with the berreta A3 would have been a smarter choice.

      • Phillip Cooper

        You can literally take the SIG frame out of the grip, put it in another size of grip, throw a different slide and barrel on it, and change calibers/size of the weapon. Any or all of these at the same time.

        Pretty sure you can’t just swap Glock slides and frames around willy-nilly.

        • Wow!

          Everything the SIG does the Beretta A3 can do. If function and modularity was the only concern, it makes more sense to stick to what we already are set up for. The primary reason the SIG was chosen was because it can be produced for ~$100 or so (can’t remember the numbers) less per firearm. And for that decision, I agree with it.

          • Phillip Cooper

            Are we talking about the Beretta M9A3? Please educate me how it’s caliber-convertible, let alone convertable from fullsize to compact frame.
            Not believing that for a second as the M9A3 is an aluminum frame.

  • Tacticool

    But does it takes Glock Mags?

    • Gun Fu Guru

      Can you hip fire it ’80s style?

      • Stuki Moi

        …While wearing MC Hammer pants?

  • Zundfolge

    All FN and Glock will likely accomplish with these protests is to diminish their brands in the eyes of the buying public. One could argue that the Army contract is large enough that it might be worth the diminution of respect for Glock, but I think FN is shooting themselves in the foot here.

    • john huscio

      The gun buying public at large generally either doesn’t know about which weapons win which contracts or doesn’t give a rats ass. Sig protested beretta’s win back in ’85, yet Sig sold crap loads of guns in the ensuing decades…no damage to their rep (at least until Cohen got hired) over that……Glock will continue to win contracts and sell crap loads of guns themselves both because they are a pistol manufacturing behemoth who makes good pistols and the fact that everything under the sun that you could ever want to “improve” a Glock exists…… FNH will get by simply because the vast majority of their weapons are excellent and worth the money paid for them.

      • Major Tom

        The difference back in ’85 was the news surrounding Sig’s protest probably didn’t make it anywhere. Certainly not TV or newspapers, maybe a blurb in specialty magazines. There was no Internet to disseminate such things.

        Today is much different. News like this gets plastered all over the blogosphere and social media like Farcebook. A lot more people become aware of it unlike in 1985.

        • LGonDISQUS

          90% of gun buying twerps aren’t as active as us online, or are already locked into a brand fixation already.

    • RSG

      Unless Sig actually failed those tests. Then they could be saving a service members life. And if Sig failed and was chosen anyway, that could be a sign of serious corruption.

      • FarmerB

        Not really. It might be that there’s a small rectification or two required before they ship production guns. We win contracts (non firearm) all the time with a promise to fix X or implement Y at some future date.

  • raz-0

    I really hope they didn’t submit the 5.7. It’s a stupid gun. Horrible trigger.

    It’s also the only pistol I have ever seen where the trigger guard has broken without being severely abused.

    • strange caliber too

      • ostiariusalpha

        In what way?

        • Dr. Longfellow Buchenrad

          Its not 9mm

          • ostiariusalpha

            Huh. And here I was pretty sure that .22 is nearly as common a pistol caliber as 9mm. I have 5 pistols in .22LR, and a couple in 5.56x45mm.

          • FarmerB

            AR’s shipped without a stock to circumvent stupid SBR laws don’t count as duty pistols. Where’s your holster?

          • ostiariusalpha

            What does being a duty pistol have to do with it? I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek with the stockless carbines, but there are of course ridiculous holsters available for them. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0895ffbf1d057d0eaa42b5eda121dc1b6a066cfd3ec5f2f4de4e980385a28654.jpg
            I have a couple snubbies that don’t have holsters either, but that doesn’t really change what they are.

          • The Jorts make this.

          • ostiariusalpha

            Yep, that’s why I chose that pic. That dude has fully committed to the lifestyle; I imagine that he is wearing flip-flops also. I can’t even bring myself to attach slings to my AR pistols, much less get a drop-leg holster for them. I bet his draw stroke is a thing of elegance & beauty.

          • FarmerB

            Nice rig, didn’t know you were a immigration/customs agent!!
            (that’s tongue in cheek).

          • Seth Hill

            “And here I was pretty sure that .22 is nearly as common a pistol caliber as 9mm.”

            Not for government agents, which is what this is about.

          • ostiariusalpha

            Well, gee, somebody should really tell the Secret Service to quit using 5.7x28mm because Seth Hill says government agents only use 9mm.

        • 5.7mm?

          • ostiariusalpha

            …is .224″ in diameter, exactly the same as .22LR and 5.56x45mm. If you meant the cartridge (an entirely separate matter from the bullet caliber), then yes, it is a very uncommon pistol ammunition.

          • JD

            Nobody cares how smart you think you are. You know what he meant, in that the 5.7 is not a common round that is issued in law enforcement. Splitting hairs just makes you look anal. And by the way the 5.7 round sucks.

          • ostiariusalpha

            No, he very much meant the bullet diameter, as shown by his 2nd post. That’s cute that my being a smart-alec makes you feel all defensive. Do other people make you feel dumb a lot? And I’m not really a huge fan of the 5.7x28mm cartridge, but you are probably right, it would suck to get shot with it.

          • JD

            No, no he didn’t. Outside your world of anal Alberts, NOBODY refers to bullets like you do unless someone is being specific talking about reloading. When someone mentions the 6.5 creedmore, I’m sure your the smart ass that says, “you mean the .264”. And no you don’t make me all defensive, hahaha not by a long shot. But people like you DO annoy me by trying to split hairs making yourself sound more intelligent than you really are. Just because social media gives everyone a voice doesn’t mean everyone’s words have equal value. I’d hold your value on the low side.

          • ostiariusalpha

            “5.7mm?”
            – Caesar Merlin

            He specifies that he meant caliber right there, bud. Them’s the facts. And no one refers to caliber as anything other than the bullet or bore diameter unless they’ve been huffing paint thinner or work for the MSM, that’s just laughably stupid. Why would I correct someone about 6.5mm when that is obviously referring to the bore diameter of any rifle chambered for .264″ bullets? That’s just a weird thing for you to even say. Certainly, I would try to always spell Creedmoor correctly in my own writing, but it’s not something I get chuffed about if someone else can’t. I’m also A-OK with you being annoyed with my “low side” comment value, nobody is forcing you to read them.

          • JD

            Lol, look, you are the only nitwit on this board that thought of .224 caliber. Everyone else knew that the poster was referring to the 5.7 round. END OF STORY! Now, have a nice day mr. magoo.

          • ostiariusalpha

            It must be fun living in a world where you can just ignore things like proof or evidence; and can feel free to speak on behalf of everybody else in the comments section (even the guy that upvoted me, LOL!). Just try to restrict your alternative facts to the Internet, I’ve seen people like you get hurt doing that out in the real world. But you have a very nice day as well!

          • Stuki Moi

            .22lr and 5.56 is not “the same” caliber in any functional sense. And neither is 5.7, at least not from a user’s perspective. If 5.7 shot M855A1 or such at velocities at handgun ranges that matched the M4 at “rifle ranges,” the two calibers would arguably be “the same” on some level.

            At the manufacturing level, it’s not impossible that there may be some efficiencies from the bullets simply having the same diameter. But for a user, not so much. At least not to much greater of an extent, than a 10 gauge shotgun and a champagne bottle is the same “caliber.”

          • ostiariusalpha

            Actually, you can load 5.7x28mm and 5.56x45mm bullets interchangeably, and people often do. The 55gr FMJ is a popular subsonic load for the 5.7mm called SS193, and there are plentiful varmint loads with light bullets, such as the 40gr V-Max, that are common to both 5.7mm (SS197) and 5.56/.223 Remington (as it was originally loaded by Hornady). You should have done more research before you posted.

          • kcshooter

            Holy douchebag, you suck!

          • ostiariusalpha

            Aw, 1 whole comment just for me! I feel so proud!

  • MrBrassporkchop

    I try this with women that shoot me down. It never works.

    • LGonDISQUS

      Dropping them from 48″ on all sides?

      • jerome

        I wonder how they insure that it hits the muzzle if it is dropped muzzle first or how it hits the right side if it is dropped right side first and so on. If you have a full mag and drop it muzzle first there is a possibility it will topple end over end…Luck is not science.

        • jerome

          And the same with women. Some are top heavy and some have big heads and some are bottom heavy.

        • LGonDISQUS

          How does one drop a date on all sides and still hope she goes out with him?

        • Chad McBain

          It doesn’t just start rotating. It will fall and land, in whatever position you drop it from. Hold a shoe at a 45 degree angle, heel pointed down. Drop it. Did it flip over on its own? Your science 🙁

  • Bill

    “Does the second protest for a large contract won by Sig have implications of a design flaw or is this business as usual?”

    No and yes.

    I’m surprised it took this long and that more companies haven’t protested.

  • Anonymoose

    They probably submitted the FNS-40.

  • MOUE

    Salty Crew:
    1. Glock
    2. FN

    • Rob

      Protests are rather common and often are legitimate. Sig struggles to deliver working systems to civilians so it is possible that these protests have teeth. Keep in mind that these two companies don’t have a history of automatically protesting every contract. FNH did not protest the Hk award for the CSASS last year not were they the one that protested Remington’s award of the M4a1 contract despite them eventually winning the solicitation after the protest filed by Colt. There may be more than meets the eye here so let’s wait for the dust to settle before we decide anyone is salty.

      • TNoebel

        In what is Sig struggling to deliver to the civilian market?

  • Raptor Fred

    Did they ever fix the Gumby problem? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdTsFB1ejo8

    • iksnilol

      Happens to most polymer pistols IIRC. A non issue.

      • Raptor Fred

        NO

      • Havaneiss Dei

        I’ve had 3 Glock — a 17, a 20, and a 22 — and I’ve never even heard of a Glock going Gumby on anyone.

    • Kefefs

      That was never a widespread problem. It was a bad frame on that one gun that FN replaced with one made properly.

  • Brooke Baker

    Uggggggghhhhhh another Patricktard article about a common thing in government contracts

  • I just came back to this thread. I find it hard to believe that SIG magazines self disassembling. The stock base plate locks into the insert in two places. It is very secure.

    Also I doubt that the pistol would fail a drop test. SIG’s mechanism on the 320 the trigger pulls the piece that activates the sear forward. For both a muzzle down and a muzzle up drop the two pieces will counter act any inertia gained that the other piece gains during the fall. All the other scenarios would be caught by the striker block.

    • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

      I have been told by three separate sources at this point that they have a drop safety problem. As for the mags, I need to try it, but I have accounts from a couple of industry folks that detail the mags exploding when dropped.

      • The only way I can see the magazine exploding is if they assembled them incorrectly because the base plate button wouldn’t even have the proper tension that way. OTOH after market basepads are problematic, they all require a redesigned locking insert or else they will explode, because none of the companies cut the slot to use the stock insert.

        Three separate anonymous sources. I take those reports of those with huge grains of salt. The Army tests the heck out of new weapons in fairly scientific manner when there is competitive testing. It is highly unlikely that a gun that failed a drop test would win Army competitive testing. The Army knows that doing so would be give a protest a serious ability to actually succeed and with the controversy surrounding the MHS that isn’t something they would want.

        • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

          I don’t care what you think about the sources legitimacy. I can’t and wont name them because it would put their job in jeopardy.

          • If they can’t come out publicly they should remain quiet. Because this is no different than people gossiping in the office. Circulating unproven rumors by people that won’t put their necks on the line for said rumors.

          • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

            Mkay. I guess if people want to get information out to the masses and want to keep their job they should just not talk and let something go unknown. Got it.

          • Or maybe they have a personal preference and/or a bone to pick with a company that don’t want people delving into their motives.

            I’ve seen so many cases where anonymous sources end up either being half truths or in some cases complete BS. But often the reports from those anonymous sources continue to circulate long after they are proven to be false.

          • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

            So hearing the same information from three separate industry sources that don’t know each other and don’t work for the same place should mean nothing? I guess I don’t see the value in giving the sources a name and burning a bridge on my end as well as putting their livelihood at risk.

          • You don’t have any sources that are willing to put their names out there, you have no hard evidence personally tested or otherwise. Yet you are spreading this rumor. What makes you any better than the National Enquirer?

            Heck you don’t know enough about government contracting to know that bid protests are normal. It would have to be a pretty small contract for that industry to not have a protest.

          • JD

            And what makes you the definitive source of knowledge?! How do you know these 3 sources ARENT lying? Sniff sniff gee I smell fan boy! SIG MUCH?

          • I am not saying that they are lying, simply that spreading rumors without hard evidence or the people telling them willing to stand behind them is not far from muckraking.

            If Patrick truly believes that the SIG P320 has a drop safety issue, that is easy to test. You just need a P320, 17 rounds of duty ammo, a couple of dozen primed brass, and a ladder.

            As far as being a SIG fanboy, the are my on my NFE list. I have no reason to defend and I am very far from being a fan boy. In fact I’ve never really been attached to any gun, they are disposable tools to me.

          • CommonSense23

            When we had our KAC cans replaced by surefires. Had lots of hate compared to the KAC cans in terms of loudness and specifically how hot they were getting. Dudes were gettting burned practicing transistions. Multiple people had to send their upper to Crane cause they thought the supprssor had welded itself to the suppressor. And they were bringing down Eotechs. Multiple people from different commands and organizations were saying the same things. Me included. Writing up equipment failure reports blaming the surefires. Turns out while the surefires were bringing the Eotechs down. It was cause the Eotechs were defective. Comprehensive testing cleared the surefires. But for about a year there was a lot of misinformation going around from multiple sources who thought they knew was going on.

          • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

            I am aware that bid protests are commonplace, there has been some indication from sources that there were some issues that may have been glossed over to make the Sig selection. I am waiting on FOIA requests currently so I can confirm.

            I plan on testing the mag issue myself soon, I need to set up the FBI drop test.

          • Like I said I find that highly unlikely, the agencies know that protests are going to happen, no contracting officer worth his salt would provide such an obvious opening to that contract losers can use to have their protest sustained.

          • Louis Bethel

            Maybe this is an easy answer, but aren’t there independent companies that test this sort of thing for firearm companies???
            Even if you set up an FBI drop test (whatever that is), your results will be challenged.
            Why not pay an independent company to do it?

          • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

            Because I am poor. You paying?

          • Louis Bethel

            You are a high-flying writer!!!!!!!!!!

          • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

            You mean broke as crap right? You don’t get rich doing this, that is for sure.

          • Louis Bethel

            Someone is doing well. We see lots of advertising.

          • Sgt. Stedenko

            If you want to get information out to the public, put a BREAKING tag in front your freaking leprechaun.
            TFB is becoming worse than a high school girls locker room with rumor and inuendo.

          • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

            The information is in the article. Just because I didn’t call out my sources doesn’t change its validity.

      • Ryan L

        Lets just say that your as currently defined “mythical sources” are correct and the mag does disassemble itself upon dropping – is there language in the contract that states that this is a go/no go variable or is this simply one of the variables upon which the gun is evaluated?

    • john huscio

      Look at first gen p250s and tell me sigs never dropped the ball qualitywise…

      • The P250 was entirely SIG Germany doing. The P320 is SIG USA who knew that they needed to get it right this time.

        As I said I find it highly unlikely that any agency would ignoring a failing test unless all entrants failed the test. Because that is a sure way to get your award reversed due to a protest. As I mentioned in another comment on this article protests are normal on large contracts, but they normally fail because agencies are increasingly dotting their ‘i’s and crossing their ‘t’s to prevent having to do it all over again due to a protest.

  • USMC03Vet

    FN won’t be content until they have all the contracts. If anything I think military contract holders shouldn’t be able to win law enforcement arms contracts.

  • 22winmag

    Coulda Shoulda Hadda FNS-40.

  • Geoff Timm

    Unfortunately our suddenly wealthy congresscretins have made losers sue, or they get a stockholders suit because the management failed to do so. Geoff Who holds congress responsible for the disaster in contracting.

  • Cosmoline ‘n’ Coke

    At least use spell check. Wow.

  • Cosmoline ‘n’ Coke

    Use spell check.

  • Louis Bethel

    Stupid article.
    “Rumors” of failures are reported?
    Let me list two factual failures.
    Glock, FN etc etc.
    They all failed to make the cut.

    Stop making up news with “rumors” about negative results on firearms.

    • PaulWVa

      Agree Louis….show me a gun design said to have never had a failure and I’ll show you a liar. Even the best hand fitted custom pistols can have a glitch due to ammo, magazines or shooter error. I have two 320s. I have a year and half old 9mm compact and nine month old sub-compact. I shoot them weekly and I’m nearing the end of my second case of ammo. I’ve had exactly one failure to eject with some steel case ammo in the compact, but only one. The sub has yet to register a single failure. I have lots of magazines for both and shoot good quality ammo. I think the 320 would make a good choice for anyone …. military, LE or civilian. I love mine!

  • Publius

    If you can find a contract award in the last ten years that wasn’t protested, I’ll be amazed. There’s simply too much money involved and it’s too easy to protest.

    (I once had a contract delayed so long that it was ultimately cancelled because a guy who was building personnel locator beacons literally in his garage claimed he could provide them cheaper than the contractor we had been doing the design work with.)

  • Samuel Mazzuchelli

    Aren’t there guns from U.S. manufacturers that would meet requirements?

    • PaulWVa

      Sig Sauer 320s are made in New Hampshire, by American workers with American made parts to shoot Sigs American made ammo. Welcome to 2017.

      • Samuel Mazzuchelli

        Sort of like Toyotas, et al. Of course, I decry globalization then climb into my Lincoln.

    • BeenThereDoneThat

      AFIK, Federal LEO and military weapons contracts stipulate that there must be production facilities within the US.

      • Jeff S

        My DHS/CBP issued HK P2000 was made in Germany…

        • BeenThereDoneThat

          Slight difference in “production” and “manufacturing”. The HK P2000 and several others models, IRC, have the parts “manufactured” (made) in Germany, BUT the actual end product is produced/assembled at/in their plant in Columbus, GA. Just like Glock’s were made in Germany, but were produced/assembled in the Smyrna, GA, facility. Now, Glock is also MANUFACTURING some of its models in the US. And SIG has an actual manufacturing plant in Exeter, NH. for the most common models while some of the “premium” grade models (P210,P232, X-Five, etc) are still made in Germany.

    • ancestors

      You mean the company that fled from oppression in its European homeland to immigrate to the land of the free and contribute to society? That “foreign” company? The one living the American Dream?

  • Bill

    The 5.7 should have gotten the contract. After all, isn’t it the most expensive and needlessly complicated of the two?

  • LazyReader

    “We want our guns to mow down those jumpers”

  • PaulWVa

    Hmmm?…well if I’m in a gunfight and I empty a 15 round magazine the last thing I will be concern with is the condition of the magazine I just left on the ground. Any mag with a removable floor plate could come apart with the right impact at just the right angle. This is all starting to sound like sour grapes to me…..kinda like the way the Left Wingnuts have been behaving since the election. wa-wa-wa.

  • cisco kid

    The only bigger Moron’s than the people who design such safety less weapons are the even bigger Morons who believe they are safe to use. In their totally arrogance and ignorance they actually believe they have never made a mistake in their life and are incapable of ever making a future mistake. Then the Darwin effect rids the world of them often much sooner than later.
    The real facts are that the Military are much bigger Morons today than they were in 1911. At least you had some Military men with enough brains that demanded John Browning put a manual safety on his 1911 pistol if they were even going to consider adopting it. The Military was right of course but todays Morons in the Military know nothing of the past nor are they aware of how easy it is to make a mistake with a gun that is cocked and ready to fire with an accidentally snag of the trigger, especially with todays young people, most of which have not grown up with firearms and have not a clue as to how they work or how easy it is to accidentally trip them off.
    In the end after many, many needless maiming’s and deaths the Military Idiots who adopted this safety less pistol (Sig) they will either end up retrofitting all of them with a manual safety or pointing fingers at everyone else but themselves and drop the gun and again chase after the next low cost miracle pistol which should have been a double action/single action with a manual safety. Hey wait a minute didn’t we already have such a gun called the Beretta 92? As you can see we just may end up going full circle again.

    • R H

      What you have just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

      Do yourself a favor and read ANY article or news release about the contract, and you’ll see that a manual safety was a requirement. The pistol selected has a manual safety (pointless as it may be).

    • Havaneiss Dei

      Trolling for the Brady Campaign?

      If you lack the self-discipline to avoid ND, then you should neither possess a firearm nor judge those who do.

  • Raguel A’septem

    How about the “grip becomes soft and pliable over 95 degrees” test… well, FN wins that one!
    Don’t get me wrong, I love the FNP-45… my buddy has one and I love shooting it… it’s on my bucket list to own one. Great design but that frame becoming soft at high temps thing is a major turn-off. I did hear they addressed that but hey, I have a P320… not much even comes close!

  • Louis Bethel

    You are saying one of the following then:
    1. P320 passed these tests and rumors are untrue.
    2. Army did not do the test.
    3. Army did the test, failed the P320, but chose to overlook the results.
    4. Army did the test and it passed.

    Isn’t there some sort of drop test required for a gun for consumers?

  • Louis Bethel

    Reporting rumors.
    And applying FBI test to ICE.

    Is Nancy Pelosi on the TFB staff now???

  • TR

    Congrats to SIG. A great pistol that won a fair competition. Glock and FN must come up with a better strategy to compete.
    I have shot all of the above and the SIG is the most comfortable and a more natural pointer.
    However, for me, my all time favorite pistols and natural pointers are the all steel CZ 75 and all steel 1911. One pistol does not fit all !