Guy Almost Shoots Hand Off In Training Course

Bullsye Bishop posted this video on their website and Facebook page. From the previous shooter, it looks like the drill is to walk while shooting with right hand only. However, the second guy draws his pistol and reaches with his left hand for a customary two handed grip. As he does this he pulls the trigger and nearly shoots his own hand. The RO says he is fine and they continue the drill. I have issues with this as I have RO’d USPSA matches and FNH USA 3 Gun Matches. Any instance of a negligent discharge is cause for immediate cease fire and disqualification. Now this looks like a training class and not a match so no need for disqualification. But such an unsafe act should have been a reason to call a cease fire and immediately draw attention to what just happened. Use this as a learning example and explain to the shooter and any other shooter there so they can all take this incident seriously.

 



Nicholas C

Co-Founder of KRISSTALK forums, an owner’s support group and all things KRISS Vector related. Nick found his passion through competitive shooting while living in NY. He participates in USPSA and 3Gun. He loves all things that shoots and flashlights. Really really bright flashlights.

Any questions please email him at nicholas.c@staff.thefirearmblog.com


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  • PersonCommenting

    IDK if he was really good….

    • Sunshine_Shooter

      Further study indicates that he was, in fact, NOT good.

      • Upon close inspection, our lab results seem to indicate a sharp drop in goodness after 7.185e+9 nanoseconds of testing.

  • A.WChuck

    Get that guy off the range!

    • Herr Wolf

      You’ll shoot your hand off, kid

  • Johnsmyname

    I don’t know what kind of operation they’re running, but “whaoo… your good, your good” from the RO and continuance of the drill is absolutely appalling. I’ll be sharing this as a reminder for people. Thanks for posting.

    • Nicks87

      Yeah that drill seems kind of pointless. Casually walking while shooting with one hand, what’s the point? You would NEVER do that in a real world situation. I don’t see any training value there what so ever.

      • raz-0

        Shooting while moving is useful. Depending on the level of the student, you start small and work up. This student apparently had some issues as he’s putting his finger in the trigger guard way too early, so I’m guessing this is for the fairly untrained/unpracticed shooter.

        • Tom Currie

          Looking at the position of the OTHER shooter, I have to say the position would be fine on a range populated exclusively with well qualified shooters who understand and follow all safety procedures, BUT I certainly wouldn’t want to be anywhere in the 180 degree arc forward of any shooter as inexperienced as the one who triggered this article.

          There is a certain level at which a student needs 1-on-1 attention AND absolute safety procedures – this student seems to clearly fall into that category and this drill clearly doesn’t

        • Nicks87

          I understand that shooting while moving is useful but this isn’t how you do it.

      • RealitiCzech

        It looks cool in videos and pictures, so more people take the class.

  • John A. Smith

    I’d actually commend, despite the idiocy of letting one off prematurely, the guy for at least following the safe direction rule. That’d be the real teaching moment for me: making sure that everyone recognizes that this is the cardinal rule if you don’t want to hurt yourself or someone else.

  • carycartter

    Rule #3 – Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target.

    Break a rule, go back to school.

    • nova3930

      Yep. Needs review of the basic rules and needs to correct that horrible draw technique. A correct draw to retention, then on to the 2 handed grip will keep the weak hand well away from the muzzle through the whole manipulation.

  • Paul O.

    Yes, those oopsies are training moments.

  • JASON B

    I am always amazed more people are not accidentally shot at shooting ranges given how many newbies are usually at a range. I am always really concerned the way I see many people next to me handling their loaded guns. Especially those groups of people where one person has some “experience” and everyone else has never seen a gun in person before. Scares the heck out of me when that group winds up in the lane next to me.

    When I take a group of people out who are NOT familiar with guns, you should see what I go through with them before anyone touches a gun. I am on top of the person every second when they pick up a loaded gun to shoot.

    • Dave Y

      The proper response here in a crowded range is: “CEASE FIRE!”, make the range cold and discuss the failure in training. In an uncrowded range, maybe you can get away with a ‘STOP’ but I think a cease fire is in order regardless.

      It’s obvious from what you describe that she’s incapable of controlling the firearm, that’s a more dangerous situation than the video above. What if she’d fired again and dropped the still loaded shotgun?

      I like ranges where you can draw from the holster, have time facing targets and you can practice rapid fire- so long as it is controlled and safe. RO’s can’t see everything, and it is all of our responsibilities to keep ourselves and other shooters safe.

    • Bierstadt54

      I like living in the country and having my own shooting mound. All this just makes me more determined to never go to a shooting range.

  • TheNotoriousIUD
  • Joel

    Well, it’s hard to tell what technique the individual was trying to employ. His weak hand was really low, not up on his rib cage as is taught in many techniques. Plus, he either disengaged the thumb safety pretty early or never put it on in the first place. And, his trigger finger seems to have been a bit eager.

    In training, one really needs to come up with a good trigger finger engagement technique. In other words, where precisely the finger enters the guard in the draw stroke. This needs to be ingrained and monitored to make sure it doesn’t wander around on its own. This is true especially if one is working a single action. Single actions are not as forgiving of wandering trigger finger engagement techniques, even though most have safeties, as some other mechanisms. The ingraining of good trigger finger technique should occur before one asks the shooter’s conscious mind to work on other items, like moving and shooting, multiple targets. etc.

  • Bill

    If it’s a training drill you press on, and counsel and remediate afterwards. You never let someone quit (the exception to the rule being if they put someone else eat risk). I also don’t toss trainees for a single stupid human trick; repeat offenders are a different story.

    That’s what we refer to as a teachable moment with high emotional valence.

    • TheNotoriousIUD

      I disagree because often with guns you only get one mistake.

      • m-dasher

        really?……no one was hurt……

        you mean to tell me youve never made a mistake with a gun?

        • RealitiCzech

          Admit it, dasher. You’re the ATF agent in that famous video, aren’t you?

    • Johnsmyname

      I completely disagree.

      If you fumble a mag change or mess up some procedural, I always tell students to press on and learn to recoup. That’s incredibly important, because things never go to plan. However, this mistake was very dangerous and could have resulted in death or gross bodily harm. More importantly there is nothing to gain from continuing the drill at this point, the gun was out and moving up toward the target. Only difference here is the guys heart rate was probably jacked. Have him do laps before the drill if you want that effect.

      • Bill

        “However, this mistake was very dangerous and could have resulted in death or gross bodily harm. ”

        Note my exception – from all we can see no one else was at risk, and no one has ever died from being shot in their hand. We’ve actually had discussions about exactly how much or how little damage a round through a hand might do.

        The trainee still gets remediated, but the greater goal of the training is to win gunfights. If he actually shot himself in the hand during an actual gunfight there’s no calling a cold range.

        I have physically disarmed trainees right away when they’ve muzzled up someone during a drill, but there will always be an element of risk and danger whenever firearms are in use. There’s supposed to be – I’m teaching people to fight other people with guns. This guy has now learned a lot about trigger finger placement and safe directions.

        • Johnsmyname

          I see what you’re saying, but still disagree. That guy could easily have shot himself in the leg (possible death) or shot the guy in line in front of him (again death). If he was negligent enough to do what he did, he’s lucky that something worse didn’t happen.

          Agree to disagree I suppose, but this was a very serious infraction in my mind and not to be taken lightly!

          • raz-0

            It’s near impossible to predict who and when someone will screw up. That’s why the rules are belt and suspenders. When people screw up you make it a teachable moment. Often when you go to teach someone during that moment, they’ll let you know if they are the amenable to the teaching.

            There’s not that huge a difference between finishing the run through and walking him off immediately for some additional instruction, and we didn’t get to see the bit that really matters. Namely what was done with the student, and how the student took it.

            For some, they know they screwed up, how bad and how close ot being bad it was. They’ll be on their own ass really really hard, and all you can do is make sure they have an accurate picture of what happened. Some folks it’s like talking to a wall, they don’t understand and don’t WANT to understand, and those you need to deal with.

          • Bill

            Nowhere did I say that it wasn’t serious or should be taken lightly. Training is about making mistakes and pushing limits. This guy exceeded his abilities. Going full stop, screaming at him and throwing him off the range will do nothing to improve his skills.

            Feel free to disagree, but understand that my job as a trainer is to facilitate learning and success, when possible. Throwing out trainees is like surgeons burying their mistakes.

        • tazman66gt

          Well, you are wrong. You can clearly see on recoil the firearm pointing at the person in front of him. If he would have jerked when he NDed the first time and pulled the trigger again he could have very well shot the other person. Your casual disregard makes me question your intelligence and ability to train someone.

          • Bill

            What casual disregard? I said to finish the drill, then counsel and remediate. I doubt any of the trainees I’ve had since 1995 would tell you that I am or was casual when it comes to safety or remedial training.

      • stephen

        “If you fumble a mag change or mess up some procedural, I always tell students to press on and learn to recoup.”

        this is entirely different than almost shooting yourself because one was negligent.

        Just saying.

        • Johnsmyname

          Yes, that is what I said.

  • esquire

    how about “shooter has close call”, rather than “almost shoots his hand off”. i didn’t see any blood, very poor choice of headlines. gun grabbers delight.

    • TheNotoriousIUD

      People who cant train safely SHOULD have their guns grabbed.

      • m-dasher

        so youve never made a mistake with a firearm….ever?

        wow youre good!

        • TheNotoriousIUD

          Hey if you wanna get shot by some jackass who thinks he’s Wyatt Earp have fun.

    • stephen

      If you go frame by frame the guy almost did shoot his hand. If he had moved it 1 inch closer it would have been disastrous.

      Fact remains there was obviously not enough dry fire training for this student. I have noticed that many instructors punch the clock and students that fall behind are rarely given additional/necessary training to meet the standards. In this case the standard of “Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target” was not practiced enough and you can see why the rules are important.

      The problem with calling this “close call” lessens the importance and training needed to handle firearms safely.

      • RealitiCzech

        There is pressure on instructors to ignore basic safety measures and go for cool-guy stuff instead. Some give in to that pressure. Some jump on loaded Glocks and shoot out a student’s tire.

    • Dougscamo

      Nah….no body would look at it with such a mundane trigger alert…
      And gun grabbers don’t give a sh$t….they are going to hate us anyway just because we have a gun…..

  • Eric Lawrence

    I’m not 100 percent sure, and I would love to hear otherwise, but that looks all the world like the holster that comes with the Sig Sauer 1911’s. Those have the active retention buttons like the Blackhawk SERPA’s that are banned from some training classes due to ND’s.

    • Dougscamo

      Let’s not start blaming holsters….it is the guy behind the trigger….if you can’t keep your finger out of the firing hole it will happen with any….

    • Nicks87

      No, we are not going to blame the equipment. It’s most definitely the user.

      • stephen

        I agree, the user who bought the equipment needs to practice to use that equipment safely. You can’t blame an inanimate object.

        Unless your a liberal.

        • Eric Lawrence

          Pump your brakes gentlemen and ask a trusted friend to teach you some reading comprehension.

          At no point did I outline my opinion on where to lay blame for the failure. I made a observation that his equipment seemed to be of a type that is banned by some incredibly competent and respectable instructors due to its propensity to cause an ND when the shooter hasn’t trained extensively on its usage. My opinion is that the shooter failed in many ways. I also think that the type of holsters that need a button pushed alongside the trigger are dangerous because the trigger finger can get put inside the trigger guard after unholstering and elevate the chance of an ND due to the inward pressure needed to unlock the gun.

          On the plus side though it looks like I know a few more cheap idiots who use SERPA holsters.

    • AC97

      So, he had a 1911 variant, and he decided to also take the safety off before it was pointed downrange too?

      Blaming it solely on the SERPA holster is disingenuous.

      Also, why didn’t he get ejected for that ND?

    • RealitiCzech

      Watch it closely. This ND was caused by stupidity, not the SERPA. A SERPA-related ND happens as soon as the trigger guard clears the holster, as the finger applying pressure to the button slams into the trigger.

  • 40mmCattleDog
  • Joseph Goins

    1911. Figures.

    • A bearded being from beyond ti

      If it been a glock he would gotten shot in the knee

      • Twilight sparkle

        He’d be the only one in the room qualified to use it too

  • stephen

    Wow – I think the instructor and the student should have been walked off the range.

    • Sunshine_Shooter

      The student should have been stopped and discussed what went wrong and ways to make sure it doesn’t happen again, and the training continued.

      The instructor should have been shown the door, for not doing the above.

  • Greg M

    With the gunfire from the other shooter, I suspect the RO did not know he had an ND, at least I hope.

    • probably couldn’t see it judging from the way the other instructor was following weak hand side. Had these been USPSA or IDPA ROs they would know you always stick to where you can best see the gun not obstructed by the shooters body.

  • Dougscamo

    Small bit of glee here….the Get Off My Lawn guy didn’t seem to be having any problem performing the drill….

  • SPQR9

    I’m not a fan of this drill setup either. The class looks to be at a beginner level. Multiple people running through the same range setup at the same time creates the scene for a really big F’up.

  • flight27

    If you look closely at around the 0.14 mark, in slo-mo, as the gun recoils the muzzle swings to the left and is likely pointed at the other student. A surprise jump of the gun like that could have easily resulted in him pulling the trigger again as he tried to regain control. Yikes.

  • Jake

    this is the price a operator has to pay to always be ready for zombie assault. round in the chamber and safety off, then quickdraw it. its the only way to stop the really fast ones.

    • maodeedee

      But what about the thousands of LEOs who carry Glocks with a round in the chamber and no safety to worry about being on or off? And what about those who are TRAINED to carry a 1911 cocked and locked and have a increased awareness of the position of their safety at all times?

      The only safety anyone can rely on is being trained to keep your stupit finger OFF the trigger until the moment that your sights are on target. At least the guys in the video went to the trouble to get some training but in my opinion they didn’t pick a very good instructor.

  • Ark

    There are so many of these fly-by-night “tactical training centers” that are just firearms accidents waiting to happen. It’s not real “training”, it’s just an excuse to horse around with guns and be stupid.

    Even in real military training, accidents happen, but it’s accepted as a fact of life because you need that training to literally survive doing your job. None of these mall ninja douchebags are going to end up in a quickdraw contest at high noon. The risk of accidents isn’t in pursuit of anything important or worthwhile.

  • Quest

    I guess he wanted to charge it (forgot that its loaded/ or muscle memory), but even then he shouldnt have the finger on the trigger…

    But yes they absolutly should have stopped and talk for a moment.

  • xebat

    This is why in modern firearms training you get trained to press your left palm on your chest until you have your pistol at chest height and pointed forwards !

  • “You’re good, you’re good, you’re good.” Uh, no you’re not! Trigger on finger during draw, almost shooting self, and a negligent discharge that endangered others on the range. Definite stop, pull off line, and discussion/training before going forward.

    • DIR911911 .

      that was a 1911 which means finger on trigger AND disengaged safety before draw was complete or on target

      • Yes indeed, frightening! Shooters trained (and practiced) in the fundamentals of the draw can easily draw and fire a shot on target (center mass) in around 1 second. These courses seem to be pushing speed, speed, speed, over fundamentals, fundamentals, fundamentals.

        Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast. When you master the fundamentals in slow motion you gain muscle memory that allows you to become smooth in the action. Once the action is smooth you can increase speed based upon the amount of training the shooter is willing to put in.

  • Ed Forney

    “Almost shoots had off”?? Hardly

  • Gregory

    Absolute stupid moments happen and there are no do-overs, so think before acting. The positive things here are that the bullet went in a safe direction. No one was hurt. The idiot learned (hopefully) a life-long lesson. And the anti-gunners did not get more fuel for their fire. Last but not least, the skid marks in the underwear can be washed out with some good detergent.

  • Warren Ellis

    So are problems like these common among firearm training centers or something?

    • DIR911911 .

      you do realize the average intelligence in this country has been on a steady downward slope

    • RealitiCzech

      When training is done by morons, yes.

  • jerry young

    This just shows the importance of keeping your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot

  • m-dasher

    there are 2 types of people….those that have had an AD….and those that will.

    if you never have an AD, you havent shot enough…….his gun was in a safe direction and no one was hurt……but by all mean, lets freak out!

    god, he did what anyone should do in that situation, stop and assess and make sure no one (himself is injured) and then continue training….he knows he made a mistake…and he moved on with his life.

    all of you people saying “Gah, what a moron, he should be kicked out” need to get a life.

    • forrest1985

      This ^

    • TheNotoriousIUD

      Speak for yourself.
      I’ve never done it and I never will.

      • Harry

        I can’t say never will (if I could see into the future I would look at the lottery numbers)

        But have never either

      • M-DASHER

        That’s because you have to actually shoot to have one…..

        • TheNotoriousIUD

          Invent whatever nonsense you need to justify your screw ups dude.
          Try not to shoot your self.

          • M-dasher

            Ide say the same to you but it’s obvious you don’t shoot………but remember to take a walk from your computer ever 20 minutes to reduce blood clots.

    • Pedenzo

      In my opinion (and yes…it is only an opinion….) there is only one instance of “Accidental Discharge” possible, and that would be a mechanical failure of the weapon. Anything else should be classified as a “negligent discharge”.

      Also, once again in my opinion, the RO should have pulled this guy off the line and had a serious discussion about safety procedures with him. Letting him continue is not teaching him anything…….

      • Dan

        The instructor should be pulled from the line. The student clearly knew he screwed up, stopped and looked to the instructor, who then just said you’re good. I believe he expected some sort of action to be taken.

        • Pedenzo

          Yep, you are right…….

    • RealitiCzech

      Hello Mr Yeager.

    • Dan

      His gun was pointed in a safe direction the moment it fired. But take a look at the slow motion portion to just after the discharge the gun points down the line to the instructor and student in front of him. Does he need to be crucified? Absolutely not. Is there a lesson to be learned? Most definitely. The problem here lies more with the instructors than the student. Casually brushing this off as an “oh well no one got hurt” is irresponsible and what comes next is no one got hurt….this time.

      Saying if you have never had an AD you haven’t shot enough is crap. It will eventually happen to most of us. I have shot 10’s of thousands of rounds with both pistol and rifle and have yet to send a round in any direction i did not intend to. Excuses for dumb mistakes are for the weak minded. Accept fault, learn from it and grow.

    • Bill

      That’s akin to saying that there are 2 types of pilots: those that have crashed and those that will.

  • DanGoodShot

    Wow. Just wow.

  • Bierstadt54

    Definitely a serious mistake, but seeing as the gun was pointed in a safe direction no harm in the end. Very much a teachable moment. And I must say there is so much vitriol being spit at this guy and the RO and anyone who ever makes a mistake with a firearm in these comments. I am just glad that my local shooting community is more laid back. I have never seen an incident, but if there was more than a few of the commentators here would apparently (combining the reactions from several comments) want the shooter kicked out of the club, banned from gun ownership, publicly shamed, denounced, condemned, and his firearm confiscated. My community would be more likely to educate without shaming, with the understanding that people make mistakes. Guess I am blessed.

    • DIR911911 .

      teachable moment is the key here. after the drill take him to the side and go over trigger discipline , practice draws. this guy will most likely never have an incident like this again. you can see how quick he stops. the real dangerous ones are the people that do this and try to play it off , they don’t learn.

  • Dave Y

    I was replying to Jason B. Everybody makes mistakes, and it is a fine line between a gun handling mistake and a gun handling mistake with potentially fatal consequences. I am not saying a cease fire was the best option in the TFB posted video.

    I call cease fire to hopefully prevent a potential safety issue from becoming an injury or worse, among the other usual reasons. Jason’s example had the potential to go badly really fast.

  • M-DASHER

    So I take it you probably don’t shoot more than 50 rounds a month and have never taken a training class…..

    ….just about everyone I know own who hashould any sort of round count has had ano AD at leadt once in their life.

    • RealitiCzech

      Sure, if they’re careless about safety.

  • RealitiCzech

    Long before you try shooting on the move, you should master the drawstroke and presentation – take your gun from the holster and present it to the target, with regards to safety throughout. Once you have that down, then you can move to more difficult areas. This guy was obviously not competent enough to be running and gunning yet, he should’ve been taken off the line and told where and how he screwed up, and what technique he should use to prevent that.

  • RealitiCzech

    What kind of fly-by-night training have you done that makes this okay?
    “Oh, I don’t want to make the student feel bad after his incompetence at the draw could’ve killed another student or injured himself. Nah, feels before safety.”

  • uisconfruzed

    Another reason to not carry, as fine as they are, a cocked & locked 1911, and keep your damned finger out of the trigger guard!