ms-creedmoor

My friend mentioned this and since I have not heard of it, some of you may not have either. It is a shooting position used by shooters such as Elmer Keith who shot a deer at 500 yards with a revolver.

Paul Kriley and I hunted up Clear Creek on the right side where it is partly open bunch grass meadows and partly patches of timber. We hunted all day, and although we saw several does at 80-90 yards, one at 60, that I could have killed. We passed them up, as I wanted a buck. Toward evening we topped out on a ridge. There was a swale between us and another small ridge on the side of the mountain slope about 300-400 yards away. Beyond that, out on the open sidehill, no doubt on account of the cougar, were about 20 mule deer, feeding. Two big bucks were in the band, and some lesser ones, the rest were does and long fawns. As it was getting late and the last day of the season, I wanted one of those bucks for meat. Being a half-mile away, I told Paul, “Take the .300 Magnum and duck back through this swale to that next ridge and that should put you within about 500 yards of them. I’ll stay here (the deer had seen us), let them watch me for a decoy.” Paul said, “You take the rifle.”
“I said, how is it sighted?”
He said, “one inch high at a hundred yards.” I told him to go ahead because I wouldn’t know where to hold it. I always sighted a .300 Magnum 3 inches high at a hundred and I wouldn’t know where to hold it at 500.

I said, “You go ahead and kill the biggest buck in the bunch for me.” Paul took off, went across the swale and climbed the ridge, laid down and crawled up to the top. He shot. The lower of the two bucks, which he later said was the biggest one, dropped and rolled down the mountain. I then took off across the swale to join him. Just before I climbed up the ridge to where he was lying, he started shooting again.

When I came up on top, the band of deer was pretty well long gone. They’d gone out to the next ridge top, turned up it slightly and went over. But the old buck was up following their trail, one front leg a-swinging. Paul had hit it. I asked Paul, “Is there any harm in me getting into this show?” He said, “No, go ahead.”

I had to lay down prone, because if I crawled over the hill to assume my old backside positioning, then the blast of his gun would be right in my ear. Shooting prone with a .44 Magnum is something I don’t like at all. The concussion is terrific. It will just about bust your ear drums every time. At any rate Paul shot and missed. I held all of the front sight up, or practically all of it, and perched the running deer on top of the front sight and squeezed one off. Paul said, “I saw it through my scope. It hit in the mud and snow right below him.” There was possibly six inches of wet snow, with muddy ground underneath. I told him “I won’t be low the next shot.” Paul shot again and missed with his .300 Magnum. The next time I held all of the front sight up and a bit of the ramp, just perched the deer on top. After the shot the gun came down out of recoil and the bullet had evidently landed. The buck made a high buck-jump, swapped ends, and came back toward us, shaking his head. I told Paul I must have hit a horn. I asked him to let the buck come back until he was right on us if he would, let him come as close as he would and I’d jump up and kill him. When he came back to where Paul had first rolled him, out about 500 yards, Paul said, “I could hit him now, I think.”

“Well,” I said, “I don’t like to see a deer run on three legs. Go ahead.” He shot again and missed. The buck swapped ends and turned around and went back right over the same trail. Paul said, “I’m out of ammunition. Empty.” I told him to reload, duck back out of sight, go on around the hill and head the old buck off, and I’d chase him on around. Paul took off on a run to go around this bunch-grass hill and get up above the buck and on top. He was young, husky, and could run like a deer himself. I got on the old buck again with all of the front sight and a trifle of the ramp up. Just as I was going to squeeze it off when he got to the ridge, he turned up it just as the band of deer had done. So I moved the sight picture in front of him and shot. After an interval he went down and out of sight. I didn’t think anything of it, thought he had just tipped over the ridge. It took me about half an hour to get across. When I got over there to the ridge, I saw where he’d rolled down the hill about fifty yards, bleeding badly, and then he’d gotten up and walked from the tracks to the ridge in front of us. There were a few pine trees down below, so I cut across to intercept his tracks. I could see he was bleeding out both sides.

Just before I got to the top of the ridge, I heard a shot up above me and then another shot, and I yelled and asked if it was Paul. He answered. I asked, “Did you get him?” He said, “Yes, he’s down there by that big pine tree below you. Climb a little higher and you can see him.” Paul came down and we went down to the buck. Paul said the buck was walking along all humped up very slowly. He held back of the shoulders as he was quartering away. The first shot went between his forelegs and threw up snow. Then he said the buck turned a little more away from him and he held higher and dropped him. Finally we parted the hair in the right flank and found where the 180-grain needle-pointed Remington spitzer had gone in. Later I determined it blew up and lodged in the left shoulder. At any rate I looked his horns over, trying to see where I’d hit a horn. No sign of it. Finally I found a bullet hole back of the right jaw and it came out of the top of his nose. That was the shot I’d hit him with out at 600 yards. Then Paul said, “Who shot him through the lungs broadside? I didn’t, never had that kind of shot at all.” There was an entrance hole fairly high on the right side of the rib cage just under the spine and an exit just about three or four inches lower on the other side. The deer had been approximately the same elevation as I was when I fired that last shot at him. We dressed him, drug him down the trail on Clear Creek, hung him up, and went on down to the ranch. The next day a man named Posy and I came back with a pack horse, loaded him and took him in. I took a few pictures of him hanging in the woodshed along with the Smith & Wesson .44 Mag.

I took him home and hung him up in the garage. About ten days later my son Ted came home from college and I told him, “Ted, go out and skin that big buck and get us some chops. They should be well-ripened and about right for dinner tonight.” After awhile Ted came in and he laid the part jacket of a Remington bullet on the table beside me and he said, “Dad, I found this right beside the exit hole on the left side of that buck’s ribs.” Then I knew that I had hit him at that long range two out of four times. I believe I missed the first shot, we didn’t see it at all, and it was on the second that Paul said he saw snow and mud fly up at his heels. I wrote it up and I’ve been called a liar ever since, but Paul Kriley is still alive and able to vouch for the facts.

Elmer Keith



Advertisement

  • Dougscamo

    Used a Ruger Blackhawk in the Creedmor position to shoot a groundhog at 100+/- yards….blew a hole in my jeans at the knee and I still have the mark on the side of my leg from the cylinder blast….Noticed that second guy using a sheet of something to prevent the same thing from happening to him….guess he has blown a hole in his jeans too….

    • Tom of Toms

      I find a two-handed grip sandwiched between my knees, while seated, provides both stability and recoil control, and keeps that second hand there to thumb-back the hammer for a follow-up shot if needed. It isn’t the most comfortable position for one’s back, but it’s easy to get to it and easy to get back up. Perfect field position for quickly getting some stability while that monster hog trots out of the far side of a canyon.
      Also, no leg burns.

      • Dougscamo

        Live and learn, I reckon….I lived…and I learned….NOT TO DO IT AGAIN!….Your method makes more sense…

        • Sunshine_Shooter

          This is why I read comments. The last thing I need is more holes in my jeans 🙂 Thanks for the insights guys.

      • Paul Prochko

        Soft suede leather solves that problem. You can use something stiffer but generally you don’t have to unless your shooting something like a super mag… Flop a piece of suede off/over your knee (drape it) and let it hang. Generally, the front of your cylinder is at or near your calf, so just lace a piece of suede with leather shoe lace, onto your calf…and you done. Good when walk hunting..

        • Tom of Toms

          She doesn’t know it yet, but the wife is making one this weekend.
          Thanks.

          • Paul Prochko

            If you put: revolver ihmsa shooter pictures… in a google search, it will bring up images.. First two rolls of picts have both types of shields shown…the top roll has the lace on suede type laced onto the calf shown. Lots of people used them. Some liked a harder shield but for field work…it’s the way to go. Happy shooting.

  • Bill

    This was really popular with Metallic Silhouette shooters when that was a thing.

    I’m certain Keith made those shots. I’m less sure that it was smart, ethical or a matter of skill or luck.

    • Duray

      It’s not unethical to try to put a crippled deer out of its misery and recover it before it runs off.

      • Bill

        You are correct. It is unethical to take chancey shots.

      • Rick O’Shay

        Yeah, it was an unethical shot that got them into that mire to begin with.

        • Dougscamo

          Never wounded a deer? Never knocked your rifle out of zero? Do you feel good when it happens?….No…but sometimes S@#T happens….sounds like it did happen here…sometimes defining an ethical shot is like a politician defining an assault rifle….

    • Captain Obvious

      What’s your sight picture of a deer at 600 yards with a pistol? What’s your hold over with a 44 mag out of pistol at that distance? What’s the bullet energy and feet per second of a 44 mag bullet falling out of the sky at 600 yards? Just saying.

      • Chris

        More than enough to go right on through a deer ! Read that a 44mag. 240 grain bullet can have a max range of 2500 yards and still be traveling at 350 fps for 65.3 foot/pounds of energy …(U.S.Army states penetration of 1 inch thick white pine board can be lethal ! ( Aprox. 50 ft/lbs ! )….
        If bullet was doing twice that speed ( 700fps. )at 1/4 of the Max.distance ( 600yd.) then the bullet would have the muzzle speed and energy (260.1 ft/lb ) of a factory 44 special which is sufficient to punch through a deer !
        Several people on u-tube have burst balloons (10 in.(?) diameter ) at 600yard range ! Easy shot ,No ! …….Possible yes !
        Also dark deer and white snow ….pretty good for sight picture ….
        And last ,but not least …..he walked his shots to the target and he missed two out of a total of four shots …it isn’t like he fast drew from concealment and shot from the hip and drilled the deer at 600 yds with 1 shot …and the guy was very familiar with extreme long range shooting with the handgun and the ammunition he was using !
        Just Saying …

        • Bill

          2 hits out of 4 shots isn’t a great hit percentage. Keith was indeed an expert shooter, but that doesn’t give any one license to attempt shots that just aren’t “smart” or ethical when it comes to live targets.

          I’ve taken plant of nutty shots on the target range juts to see if it could be done, including some 400+ yard pistol shots when working out with precision rifles. I’m not about to share how many hits I did or didn’t get, but I’ll never attempt the same shots on living targets

          • Chris

            It was the definition of ethics silly, he was trying to put down a wounded animal before it escaped to disappear and die a painful and cruel drawn out death ! He didn’t wound the deer ,someone else did ,
            Luckily Keith was such a fantastic shot that he could make the shot ,and put the animal down…. And you are just being obtuse if you are saying 2 hits out of 4 shots at 600 yards with a 6″ revolver isn’t a great percentage of hits !
            So you wouldn’t try to finish off a wounded animal If you thought you could maybe make the shot because you’re …” TOO ETHICAL ” …Yeah ,right
            BravoSierra , dude !

        • Tassiebush

          The point is people need to take shots with a good chance of connecting with one of the right parts of the deer. Not just a number of flukey shots that might connect somewhere. It’s not combat shooting and it wasn’t vermin eradication. It was hunting game where the standards need to be higher (some will dispute this point for vermin). The first shot from the rifle was a bad one over what isn’t generally considered an ethical range for game. The subsequent shots were all still taken under the same circumstances. Perhaps after the initial screw up they had no way of getting closer but it’s pretty hard to describe it as anything but a debacle. I’m not perfect. I’ve made bad hits. I prefer not to talk about them and I modify my approach either by practice or by abstaining from the type of shot till I know I can make it.

          • Dougscamo

            Curious….what kind of vermin?
            As to the rest of your comment….I believe we all agree….but, as you stated, you (and I) have made bad shots….I was fortunate to miss completely on mine and at some ridiculously CLOSE shots….but what lengths will one go to to try to finish a wounded animal?…..
            As far as to the distance….if you haven’t already…go to long range hunting dot com (thanks to Jared Vynn for the tip on avoiding the link jam) and check what those guys think about shooting 500 yards….they don’t even consider it long range….the greatest difference is that they practice for it of course….
            P.S. You have any trouble with Disqus notifications lately? Guy posted a response to a comment I made and it does not appear anywhere on my side….and the other day, I posted a comment to James R. and it posted it twice….

          • Tassiebush

            Ah yes I’ve noticed a few double and triple posts lately by others and also i was totally unable to access the disqus site the other day. It wouldn’t get to the login page. I also noticed that sometimes the conversation on the tfb website has more of the conversation than if I go to the thread on disqus.
            I agree I think there’s way more agreement than anything else.
            I’ll check that long range hunting site out. The rule of thumb I’m used to hearing is 300m to 400m as a limit for a good shot on large game. I’m not up to that standard myself but am sure some people can do that and further and there’s probably a bunch of specialised hunters/shooters with specialised rigs that can extend on that but I just worry there are lots of variables particularly like wind and movement that are more acute with distance. As far as targets go a big beast has lots of non vital bits surrounding the vital area to hit if you screw up which is undesirable. It’s also a ratio of energy to animal size that isn’t so dramatic. A varmint on the other hand that cops a graze from a high velocity projectile is like a human grazed by a cannon. It’s probably dead anyway given the scale of tissue impacted and varmints are therefore much more hit or miss without so much risk of wounding. Gut shoot some little rodent with a .223 and it’s probably a quick death anyhow. Do the same thing with a deer and a .308 and it’s a very different outcome. Some game too like wallabies (what I hunt) for example have the head, neck and triangular heart lung area all stacked close together often vertically and this is a quite forgiving target area. Aim for the brain and either miss over the head or hit low and still get vitals.
            Another consideration is why are we shooting something in the first place? If it’s human conflict any type of injury is desirable from head to toe. The more incapacitated the better. If it’s hunting for meat or trophies you want those parts retrieved and intact and not tainted by stress hormones (modern western paradigm rather than survival which is different). If it’s vermin and especially destructive vermin then the imperative is to stop that destruction. If a lamb eating pig gets gut shot it might still be less of a bad thing than passing up a shot and losing more lambs. Basically Elmer’s shots and more so his friend’s would sit fine with me on vermin if nothing better was possible because I’d see abstaining from them as allowing economic harm/livestock suffering, but I wouldn’t take them with game personally. Having said that it doesn’t taint my good opinion of the man! I still think he was a legend and top bloke!

          • Dougscamo

            Thanks for the reply!…And thanks for the info on Disqus since I was beginning that I had entered a time loop….

          • Tassiebush

            Hehe thanks. Yeah I like a topic like this one.

          • Dougscamo

            Yeah….I don’t think the original “poster” expected a firestorm quite like this! Crazy thing….your reply did NOT show up on my notifications from Disqus….just happened upon it while reading the post again…..dang it!….

          • Tassiebush

            I’m getting them Okay now.. at least I think so anyway…. Yeah it was a pretty awesome topic! Everyone made a pretty decent go of making their case whichever side they were on.

          • Dougscamo

            Okay…getting freaky now….got this notification!…
            BTW, do you guys have red deer?….Hope your reply shows up so I don’t have to read all the comments again….
            🙂

          • Tassiebush

            That came through quick at my end. Regarding red deer they have them on the mainland. I think it’s Victoria New South Wales and Queensland but not certain. It’s only fallow deer down here in Tasmania. Just to mention the other species in Australia there are also hog deer (a small species), chital, rusa and sambar.
            Interestingly they’ve got a bunch of others over in New Zealand including wapiti which I understand are elk (large red deer subspecies) in the North American sense.

          • Dougscamo

            Fallows are cool….they have them here….like everything else in the world like black buck, nilgai, oryx, etc on game ranches though the nilgai and oryx are now found in wild populations….Yeah, Elk (wapiti) are the same species as red deer but are larger in body and antler though the antlers on an elk don’t have as many points….just longer and heavier. Read about sambar and I understand they are pretty good sized and tough….but let’s not get into that again….
            Wild game owned by the state (like here in the US) or by the landowner (like in Europe)?

          • Tassiebush

            You need a licence and there is a bag limit with some game so state owned I guess. Basically you need landowner permission (private or public land) and the game licence. Generally that’s the extent of it. I think though in some trophy hunting contexts you could find yourself paying a trophy fee as well on some properties. Interestingly in some states the conversation is starting that deer might be reclassified from game with bag limits and licence etc to pest which would put them into an unprotected status which would be a bit of a free for all.
            Those are a lot of species. Texas is it? I think it was there that I read about nilgai or perhaps Arizona?!

          • Dougscamo

            Hopefully, they won’t reclassify them….like you said, free for all to the detriment of the animals….varmints (vermin) are of course unprotected in our part of the world….Nilgai have spread through Texas and have been found in Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida….the Oryx are still just in New Mexico to my knowledge…wild that is…
            Elk (wapiti) are being established in several eastern states like Kentucky, North Carolina, Virginia, and probably some others are giving it some thought….though in Virginia they were classified as unprotected in the

            60’s and annihilated…pre-game management days…because they were thought to carry disease detrimental to livestock…
            Funny sideline to all of this….started on one subject and ended on another! Same thing happens on some of my other subscription blogs….start talking about one cartridge vs another for target or deer and it morphs into guys talking about grizzly bear hunting….with handguns!

          • Tassiebush

            Yeah reclassification would probably reduce the range and numbers quite a lot although given that there is far less hunting access than years ago I think a lot of pockets would persist. When you mentioned that it made me think of how whitetails were basically extinct throughout much of your east for part of the 20th century for same reason. I think the context is a bit different here too because they are all completely alien to the local ecology. Nothing hoofed is native. But yeah I think I’d prefer to just see them up bag limits and access to hunting public and private land if there is concern over spread or density.

          • Tassiebush

            Oh yeah sambar are tough by all accounts. Think the legal minimum is .270. They hunt them by hounds as well as stalking which is pretty novel. People do with fallow here too but it’s not legal to use hounds on deer in Tasmania. They’re used to drive wallabies here.

          • Dougscamo

            Wallabies are that much of a problem? Afraid I’m not that familiar with them but can identify them when I see them….on TV….or a zoo….
            Our biggest problem in the East is coyotes….pretty good sized versions of a small wolf….nasty creatures that decimate the whitetail fawn population….as well as turkeys, grouse, and sometimes, local sheep herds….

          • Tassiebush

            Yeah we have a lot of them in Tasmania. Two species the Pademelon and the Bennett’s. The former is especially abundant and the latter are certainly very numerous. Pademelon will live on a tiny parcel of scrub. I’ve had one take up residence in my backyard when I let a garden corner get overgrown. Wallabies are a mainstay of hunting here. Basically imagine a herbivore that doesn’t really have any substantial predators that has done very well out of land clearing. The females have two young on the go at pretty much any time. They’ll eat crops and compete with livestock. They aren’t bad eating themselves although they have tough sinews and you want young light pink fleshed ones. The lack of predators is interesting and somewhat sad. Our largest land predator the thylacine or Tasmanian tiger was driven extinct with a bounty back when fur was a big industry here and basically every part of the state that could support it had snarers which generated income during winter months. The Tasmanian devil is the remaining significant predator but they’ve taken a huge hit due to a facial tumor disease which is a bizarre illness. Basically the devils had such a severe genetic bottleneck that it seems that when one with this tumor has a scrap with another as all adult ones do, the tumor cells can cross over and aren’t rejected by the new host because they’re too similar genetically! Contagious cancer! Basically by the time they mature enough to breed they get it so it’s meaning they’re only occupying their junior devil ecological niche. They don’t get to be big for long.

          • Dougscamo

            I’ve seen film of the last Tasmanian Tiger that was in captivity….pretty far out creature!….And not very good news for the Devils as well….
            We have such a problem with coyotes and they are so bloody smart I don’t think we will ever get rid of them….saw a bumper sticker the other day stating…Eat More Mutton….2 million Coyotes Can’t Be Wrong….LMAO
            Killed 5 last year with 22-250, 1 with a bow, 1 with a .50 cal muzzle loader and 1 with a .270….and never hunted them a single day….

          • Voice_of_Reason

            deer ARE vermin

          • Tassiebush

            It’s all about context really. If they’re nothing but trouble for you or what you value then yep they would be. I was referring to the legal and cultural context of a trophy or meat hunt though where they’re seen as a resource to sustain rather than a problem solved by eliminating them.

          • Voice_of_Reason

            no doubt, but deer are in no danger of goong extinct.

            we might be selecting for smaller racks by shooting all the big ones, but deer in general are everywhere.

          • Tassiebush

            I get the impression that whitetails in the states are extremely prolific. I read about urban bowhunting and all sorts of indicators they’re extremely healthy numbers.

  • Anonymoose

    They won’t let me do this at my range. 🙁

    • Dougscamo

      Thank them the next time you visit….my knee looks like Tom Chaney’s cheek in the latest True Grit….

  • iksnilol

    That’s why I use a semi auto… no cylinder burn.

    • Dougscamo

      Neither do I….anymore….just don’t lay the slide on the side of your knee and crank one off….probably would be worse than cylinder burn…

  • Vhyrus

    Put a younger guy in that top picture and you’ve got one hell of a wrangler billboard.

    • Graham Best

      Leave the guy as he is, and you’ve got one hell of a billboard. Of course, he’s wearing wool whipcord pants, not jeans.

  • mechamaster
  • Anomanom

    Creedmoor my behind. I shall call this shooting position the “Lazy American”, and no one can stop me. Looks like you need to shoot someone but you can’t be bothered to get up from the couch.

    • Tom of Toms

      Guys in-the-know can then call it the “Here, let me make this look easy while you carry on flinching with that 10mm”.

    • Paul Prochko

      Big a old Silhouette shooter…I can tell you that it is a extremely stable position when done correctly. In International class, you had better be able to shoot 8 to 10 of 10 of the shoot off targets at 200 meters…and often they chose targets that were only a few inches (3 to 4 inches high or wide or less) …very difficult to even see some of them at 200 meters.

  • Harry’s Holsters

    What is the origin of creedmore? Is the 6.5 creedmore in anyway related to the origin of this creedmore creator?

    • Dougscamo

      I trust this was asked in seriousness….so I will answer that way. It was the Creed farm in N.Y. where a shooting match took place in the 1870’s between the US and UK….er….Great Britain….reminded them of the moor….hence….

      • Harry’s Holsters

        Dead serious. I’ve always wondered this. The local High Power range in Butner NC is right next to Creedmore NC so I always wondered if that was the lineage but then found out the cartridge was not developed in NC.

        So was the this style developed of shot at this match and was the 6.5 creedmore named after this match as a nod of respect? I’m assuming there were multiple styles of shooting at this match.

        • Dougscamo

          Harry….you are correct on all counts….

    • Frank Grimes

      Yes. They saw how stupid the position was, so they wanted to invent a caliber that was just as stupid.

      And out came the 6.5 Creedmore.

      • Tom of Toms

        “Trollin’ trollin’ trollin’,

        Keep my bullsh!t flowin’,

        Frank Griiiiiiimes.”

        • Frank Grimes

          So I’m trolling because .260 Remington has superior ballistics with less pressure and it’s easier to find its parent cases?

          Or is it because .260 Remington is too mainstream for you?

          Wouldn’t want to be caught having a preference for a superior mainstream caliber when you comb your ironic mustache, slip on your Birkenstocks, and head down to the independent record store to browse through vinyl and sip microbrews, right?

          • Tom of Toms

            Man, you have a thing for hipsters. I couldn’t point birkenstocks out in a lineup of “stuff one ought not to wear”. Intend to maintain that.

            I shoot .45 Colt “TC/Redhawk/Blackhawk” style, rather than a .454, for the same reasons that .260 is superior to 6.5 Creedmoor. Mostly that the lower pressures make it more comfortable to shoot, even with 365s at 1200-1250, but the brass for lesser loads is easily obtainable.

            I just couldn’t help myself when the tune presented itself in my head. You’ve pointed out before: I must regularly IMAGINE sounds.

          • Frank Grimes

            The reason I know what Birkenstocks are is the same reason I know what taqiyahs and hijab are.

            It’s about being able to identify the enemy.

  • Jared A. Faber
    • Badwolf

      Yes cod. I knew I’ve seen that shooting position before, didn’t know it had a name. Tom hanks too in the final scenes of saving private Ryan.

      • VanDiemensLand

        Last stand was gay as AIDS.

    • mechamaster

      I remember it is triggered when the player health is reaching critical / dying. ( Last Stand Perk ) in COD4

  • Brian

    “Hell, I was there.” Is one of my all time favorite books. One of the funniest stories in the book was Elmer and his wife were visiting D.C. and a carload of criminals came flying down the street beening chased by cop cars. Elmer pulled out his .44 and stopped the car. After they gave him back his pistol, they told him never to return to D.C.! I guess some people don’t like to be helped! Also, Elmer had a front sight that had gold lines on it for various holdovers. He is a hero of mine.

    • Dougscamo

      Mine too….met him in Chicago in 1976 at a SHOT-like show….when I first saw him, I knew him….Stetson hat and cigar in place. Gotta admire a guy that was involved in the development of the .357 Mag and pushed Remington into releasing the .44 Mag….that he had developed with his work with .44 Special….not to mention the Keith bullet. Different times….different people….like Keith’s friend, Ed McGivern of who still holds some records even Jerry Miculek has not yet bested….

  • Badwolf

    Tom hanks did that in the final scene of saving private Ryan. He took down a tank with a 45, so a deer should be no problem.

  • R3

    The position aside, this is the single most fuddliest story I have ever read.

  • MIND THE GAP

    • Dougscamo

      Thank you….too late….though I know the gap to which you refer….

  • Graham Best

    Anyone recall the flick Untouchables? Remember Andy Garcia in the train station taking out the assassin? Who knew he was shooting from the Creedmoor?

  • Will

    Basically these men tortured this deer by taking chancy shots and requiring at least four shots to put it out of its misery. The first shot should have been taken with the .300 and ended it then and there.
    Sounds to me like Keith was simply trying to assuage his own ego by shooting the animal with a handgun when it was clearly at rifle range.

    • Jake

      and the very same people will go on a forum and preach about how it is inhumane to shoot an elk with a 30-06, we need a ‘magnum’ caliber. while taking potshots at a dying animal with a pistol from a fraction of a mile away

    • Chris

      Then it shows you didn’t read the story …first shots were from the rifle and the deer was running away wounded Keith was doing his best to put the animal down …and he did!

  • TDog

    Creedmore Position or poses for a swimsuit edition of Guns and Ammo?

  • datimes

    “shot a deer at 500 yards with a revolver.” WHILE SMOKING A CIGAR!!!

  • mazkact

    When I was a teenager I read about the Creedmore hand gun position for Silhouette matches. I tried this position with my Remington style cap and ball revolver without the benefit of a leather leg protector. Suffice to say I set my Wranglers on fire and learned a valuable lesson 😉

  • Huaba Sepp

    draw me like one of your french girls

  • Phillip Cooper

    Nosir, you are not.

    • Tom of Toms

      Perhaps. We have to remember that the threshold for “GAF” was much higher in his times. And, Keith was the sort of guy that didn’t consider a revolver handload stable unless he could put multiples into a 55 gallon drum at 600 yards, so if anyone was capable of making those shots, it was him. Also, the animal was running away, his buddy wasn’t getting it done, and had already obviously wounded it: honestly Keith couldn’t make it much worse, so why not take shots at it while he could? You gonna run 500 yards to close the distance, with the chance that it crawls off and dies, never to be found in the meantime?
      I work in a building full of hunters. And sometimes, even with a good shot or even just better shots than written of here, animals take multiple hits without dying immediately.
      And most importantly, did Elmer take the first shot? THAT would have been cut-and-dry unethical. Given the circumstances though, all we can do is learn.

  • nick

    look up the account of the Irish National Team against the US Team at the early Creedmoor shoot, and it should have some interesting accounts of both the shooting positions used ( like being on your back, and supporting with your feet!)
    as well, the Irish Team used muzzle loaders, and the US team used black powder cartridge…and they were very close in scores…and finally. look at the scores…and the ranges shot…truly humbling….a story on that would make a great TFB article…try and replicate the first match !

  • .45

    So many people talking about ruining jeans with this shooting position, but I notice the “Man” has the gap beyond his leg, and it is the second guy who has a cloth over his leg instead (or is another picture of our hero here?). Tried to see if it was awkward to hold my hand out past my leg myself, but even with my notoriously inflexible hips I had no trouble. I’ll have to try shooting that way some time.

    • Tom of Toms

      On the second guy: wearing ear protection and no cigar. Can’t be Keith.

    • Dougscamo

      Got to remember that this guy was pre-Internet so young, impressionable guys….moi included…..tried it without the benefit of good photos and such…..I guess we forgot to read the fine print…. 🙂

      • .45

        I guess I have the benefit of my father’s side of the family being gun nuts and talking about “beware the cylinder gap” to keep me from trying something like that. (Though I only have a .22 revolver and a black powder revolver, so the damage would be very minor compared to .44 mag.)

        • Dougscamo

          Nothing teaches like pain….apparently someone in your family was “taught”….. 🙂

      • .45

        Oh, my father likes to tell the story of my uncle shooting .44 mag with big old work gloves, part of which extended out to reach the gap. Said it blew all the leather “fuzz” off the exposed areas.

  • Dougscamo

    For some reason, your response to me just showed up….Disqus is doing some strange things to my viewing lately…didn’t even show up on the Disqus site showing notifications. Didn’t want you to think I was ignoring you….
    Apparently I’m missing something here….Kriley was the one that stated that the rifle was sighted 1″ high at 100 yards…Keith said that he liked his sighted 3″ high at 100…I did not see where the rifle was borrowed ….so….what did I miss? Kriley was the one that knew about the rifle….isn’t he? So how strange was the rifle? If I misread, please let me know where….sh#t happens with me too….

    • Rick O’Shay

      …Aaannnnd you’re right. Dang. My reading comprehension is really starting to suck. I swear I read that thing six times, and came to the same conclusion that the rifle was Elmer’s and Paul was borrowing it. My apologies for that confusion. (and I’m only just now responding because I don’t get on the internet much during the weekend)

      • Dougscamo

        No problem, Bro….it happens….and I won’t let the boss know what you are doing at your work station…LOL…

  • adverse4

    Yoga shooting position?

  • adverse4

    Shooting from the yoga position.

  • Joe_58

    Spent a lot of time on silhouette ranges shooting from this position. Amazing how steady you can hold when shooting this way with iron sights. Now at my age, if I could get back into creedmore position again, probably couldn’t get back up. Lol.

  • Blueridge

    I agree with what Bill Jordan had to say about this amazing shot, to a bunch of skeptics…”Well, I sure wouldn’t want him shootin’ at me.” Both have left this world for a better one, and both have left us high standards to use as our measurement. Thanks, Elmer…and thank you, Bill.

  • CavScout

    Two Fudds talking. Also,ust because you can MAYBE connect, doesn’t mean you should try.

  • My wife and I used to shoot IHMSA handgun metallic silhouette matches. The picture of the man with the long-barreled revolver shows a proper Creedmoor position. It is a three-point hold with the pistol resting against a diagonal lower leg, elbow on the ground, and shoulder supported. It is quite accurate. The picture of Elmer Keith does not show a Creedmoor position. His elbow is not on the ground. If it were the revolver would be further back causing the gas from the barrel/cylinder gap to shred those nice western slacks and the meat beneath them. Note the other pic shows the shooter has a blast shield – usually a piece of fairly heavy leather.

  • Nergyl

    Draw a bead on me like one of your French girls.

  • missourisam

    For anyone who wants to call Elmer a liar, Bob Munden duplicated the shot on a life size silhouette on the first shot. It was recorded on video on the TV show, “Impossible Shots”. I’m not saying the whole thing was an ethical hunt, because as Keith said he was meat hunting. To me, a 60 yard shot on a legal doe would have been much better than a 500+ yard hail Mary shot chancing a wounded deer getting away to die slowly. As my grandpa would have said, “If that had been me, someone else would have had to tell that story”.

    • Dougscamo

      Bob Munden…boy could that guy shoot! Was watching one day when he pulled his SAA out and shot it….I said to myself “What’s the big deal about that?”….until they did the slo-mo and revealed that he had actually fired 3 shots…..DAAAMMMNNN!