7.62×25 Tokarev M1 Carbine: Another Frankensteinian Creation From Herbert “The Mad Gunsmith” Werle

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German gunsmith Herbert Werlecreator of the famous “AK-47” Luger and the .45 ACP Luger Carbine – has created another strange hybrid firearm: A 7.62x25mm Tokarev M1 Carbine. Two videos of Werle testing the rifle are embedded below:

In the description of his first video, Werle explains that because the 7.62x25mm round is so much less powerful than .30 Carbine, it is very difficult to get an M1 Carbine to run properly with it. According to Werle “The only way to get the carbine work is to shorten the way of the operating rod to unlock the bolt,” although whether by this he means that the cam track must be shortened, or the op rod and distance between the breech and the gas block itself, is unclear.

For magazines, Werle is using a hybrid of M1 Carbine and .357 Magnum caliber Desert Eagle magazines, I assume modified in some way to accommodate the shorter and thinner 7.62x25mm round. The use of .357 cal Desert Eagle magazines does suggest that caliber might be a better conversion than the Soviet round, but perhaps that was Werle’s point: To see if he could. Or maybe, the idea is that this conversion creates a handy carbine that can be cheaply fed with readily available ammunition, in areas outside the US where .30 Carbine isn’t plentiful.



Nathaniel F

Nathaniel is a history enthusiast and firearms hobbyist whose primary interest lies in military small arms technological developments beginning with the smokeless powder era. In addition to contributing to The Firearm Blog, he runs 196,800 Revolutions Per Minute, a blog devoted to modern small arms design and theory. He can be reached via email at nathaniel.f@staff.thefirearmblog.com.


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  • iksnilol

    Eeeh, why not use PPS mags? They’re doublestack and readily available?

    • BryanS

      Im betting that there are legal reasons more than technical.

      Which is why we have 2/3s of the firearms we have here on the market.

      • Tierlieb

        Usually a good assumption, but no, Werle would be free to use PPS mags in his home country.

    • The wider magazine would require significant modifications to the trigger housing, and perhaps even the receiver.

  • AC97

    This is great and all until you remember that this is actually a downgrade, ya know, because .30 Carbine is more powerful…

    • Scott Connors

      Is the .30 carbine more powerful than 7.62 Tok in all loadings? I’ve read that during the Korean War some Combloc loads were quite hot and approached the carbine velocity when fired from a PPsH..
      Of course, another way of looking at this is that the .30 carbine is simply a hot pistol cartridge.

      • Yes, .30 Carbine is hotter.

        I think ammunition availability and “because I can” were Werle’s two primary motivations.

        • iksnilol

          I doubt availability was much of a factor with his horrible choice of magazine.

          • Tierlieb

            If you think it is a horrible choice, try building it yourself. You’ll note that grinding off parts in a consistent manner is really hard on stamped and welded PPS mag.

            Building a sleeve out of an existing M1 mag and just inserting a slimmer one is more reliable and it even looks much closer to the original.

          • iksnilol

            Why would you grind the mag? Build a magwell, adapt the gun to it.

          • A magazine well insert for Tokarev magazines might make more sense, but as you state, that would change the visual appearance.

            One advantage to the Desert Eagle magazine conversion would be the ability to handload the cartridge with longer projectiles. You could even make what J.D. Jones dubbed the 7.63mm Mini-Whisper.

        • Steve Truffer

          7.62 Tok is generally loaded with pistol powders, and the .30 carbine usually gets much slower stuff. I wonder how the Tok would fare with a slower powder out of an 18″ barrel

          • Brian Fulmer

            H110/W296 is a magnum pistol powder, being slow it requires more case capacity that the 7.62 Tok doesn’t have.

        • Tierlieb

          I think it is only because he can.

          .30 Carbine is actually much easier to get than 7.62×25, as the M1 Carbine is a common rifle for some sporting disciplines.

          7.62×25 is cheaper than .30 Carbine at 30cents per round instead of 38cents, but much harder to get in quantity.

      • maodeedee

        What makes the m1 carbine round more powerful is that it has greater case capacity and fires a heavier bullet. No matter how hot you load the 7.62 Tok, bullets heavier than 85 grains will develop less velocity than the 30 carbine.

    • maodeedee

      What’s really dumb is he’s using Desert eagle 357 magnum magazines. Why didn’t he just re-barrel to 357 Magnum????
      That would be an upgrade rather than a downgrade.

  • Vitor Roma

    Off topic: Netflix debuted a new series about a super sniper dude. In the first 10 minutes we have to hear how the .223 is note suitable to kill anything bigger than a squirrel. Yup, 3 times the energy of a 9mm, but can’t kill a wolf.

    • Doctor Jelly

      I saw a movie about a year ago where some sharpshooter was talking about their rifle chambered in “308 win mag”…

      • georgesteele

        Wimpy compared to the 309 win mag . . .

        • Doctor Jelly

          HOw could I forget the venerable 309?! As light as 556, as flat as 7mm, the range of 50BMG, recoil of a 22, the energy dump of a 20mm, and it tastes like cheesecake to boot!

          • georgesteele

            Not only that, but it snaffles caps, and helps build strong bodies 12 ways! (Batteries not included)

    • Paul Labrador

      LoL…and yet, .223 with the right loads can take deer easily…..

      • Stephen Paraski

        So can .22lr. Seen it in Northern MI on many November 14ths. Shot placement.

  • Cal S.

    I’d like to see some ballistic data on the 7.62x25mm out of that barrel…

    • guest

      Based on what we see from PPSh41 and PPS43 submachineguns I would predict 1800-1900 feet per second muzzle velocity with the 85-86 grain full metal jacket roundnose service bullet. Possibly it could be as much as 2000 given the longer barrel of the carbine vs. the SMG. Of course given the varying specifications to which ammunition in this caliber is loaded, these are only very approximate guesses. It might even shoot to the sights, sort of, with a somewhat lighter bullet, but 7.62x25mm does not have the case capacity to reach all the way to .30 Carbine power levels. .30 Carbine has a third more case capacity but in either caliber the 300m sight setting is wildly optimistic and both rounds are at their best within 150m–well within.

      I would expect less power and penetration overall, in terms of terminal ballistics, due to lower bullet mass, but otherwise not much difference. A .30 caliber roundnose FMJ bullet traveling at about 1800 feet per second is not impressive in ballistic gelatin, whether its weight is 85 grains or 110, though in a living organism if it hit bone on the way in, its high velocity (compared to handgun cartridges) might, at close range, tend to shatter bone and the resulting wound could be messy.

      Prvi Partizan makes hollowpoint ammunition in 7.62x25mm which seems to expand and penetrate well from handguns. I would be interested in seeing whether the increased velocity resulted in significantly different performance.

      • georgesteele

        There’s a YouTube video of a guy shooting a .30 carbine at targets 300 yards away. He knocked a heavy metal plate over at range. Would NOT want to get hit by a 110 grain moving at 1000+ fps, whether at 300 yards away or 3 feet away. Trajectory is a rainbow, of course.

  • marathag

    Or a .22 caliber sized gas port

  • Don Ward

    But will a 7.62 Tokarev-chambered M1 Carbine fail to penetrate the winter jacket worn by a Korean War-era GI or Marine?

    • valorius

      Dontcha just love war myths?

    • Johannes von’ Strauch

      My great-Grandfather when he saved his wounded friend was hit from 150-200m away with a 7.62×25 , it went trough his uniform, stomache, and barely stopped in the spine. 1cm further and ive never would be born…
      Luckly it icepicked and stopped early enough. A SCHV like 5.56×45 would have shredded his organs and break the spine. He was still on foot and got to a Wehrmacht medic. (he was strictly against the NSDAP)

  • Samuel Phillips

    Nice !

  • Raoul O’Shaugnessy

    I’ve always thought that if HiPoint would make a version of their carbine in .30 Tok it would sell awesomely.

    • Gunner4guy

      I sent them a long email several years ago with suggestions including adding 7.62×25, .38 Super +P or .357 Sig to the lineup and using commonly available mags rather than proprietary ones. Since it’s a blowback I suggested interchangeable barrels for calibers that had more or less the same case head diameter (kind of like the TC Contender) with maybe an appropriate extractor and/or recoil spring change. All I got was a return email thanking me for my ‘interest in Hi-Point firearms.’

  • FulMetlJakit

    Pretty cool… Now will this interesting gentlemen please perfect a .357 Mag version, arrange for it to be produced in the US, and SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!

  • Iblis

    Take my money!

  • valorius

    I wish someone would make a modern 7.62x25mm service pistol.

    • Baggy270

      Dominion Arms makes a 226 clone in 7.62×25 but I think you can only get it in Canada as I believe it’s made in China. I’ve shot one and they are quite nice. Only run about $399 Canadian or $49.99 US last I checked.

      • Billy Jack

        You get ten Maple Spirit Awards for the denigration of the Canadian currency(currently tied to the value of hockey pucks or one can of the cheapest beer you can find, whichever is lower.)

      • De Facto

        Not having cheap SKS rifles available is bad enough. But now I learn the handgun of my dreams actually exists.. and I will never own it thanks to current regulations here in the US.

        …stupid F***ing arms embargo.

        *sobbing into my beer*
        #daydrinkingtoforgetgunsorrows

  • DudeGuy

    Now all we need is someone to make one in 10mm and use Glock magazines.

    • maodeedee

      YES!!!!!

  • maodeedee

    I don’t see the point of chambering the 30 carbine for another 30 caliber round that has even less case capacity than the standard carbine round which will produce even lower velocities than the puny (by rifle standards) 30 carbine. This would have made sense a few years ago when 762×25 ammo was cheap and plentiful, but it doesn’t make any sense now.

    What the M1 carbine really needs is to be chambered in something more powerful like a 10mm Auto or even the 10mm AMT/IAI Magnum Auto. But the limiting factor is a magazine. Years ago someone re-barreled M1 carbines to the 45 Winchester magnum, which was a lengthened 45 ACP (1.198 in -30.4 mm case) a cartridge that was developed, along wityh a 9mm magnum, for use in the Wildey and grizzly LAR pistols. supposedly it worked in 30 r0und magazines but reduced capacity to 16.

    From the very beginning, the M1 carbine should have been chamberd for the 351 Winchester Self-loader. It developed 1,870 ft/s-1,400 ft·lb with a 180 grain bullet, which is not far from the ballistics of the 35 Remington which is a great deer rifle cartridge.

  • maodeedee

    Universal also made an M1 Carbine in 357 magnum and it was probably they who made the 256 win mag chambered carbines because the 256 is just the 357 mag necked down to 25 to approximate and improve on the old Winchester 25-20 rifle cartridge.
    Don’t be afraid to show your age. With age, we gain experience and knoslege and everyone without exception either gets old or they die young. Time does not stand still and nobody stays young forever. The 5.7 was the most practical conversion because if fed flawlessly from standard M1 Carbine magazines and the 5.7’s were generally pretty accurate and were more powerful than the modern 5.7 FN.

    • Gunner4guy

      I was offered this particular M1–256 Win Mag conversion but passed – just too rich for my blood! A unique piece but no regrets at not getting it then or now.
      Wasn’t aware a version was made in .357 Mag but that makes sense given the cartridge size.
      Seems like even though the HiPoint carbine is put down, it’d make a good platform for cartridge conversions as well. plus being cheaper/more available.