OPINION: Have Shotguns Jumped The Shark? I Think So

JumpTheShark

In recent years, many of the experts in home defense have strayed away from the typical “just get a 12 gauge pump” line of thought. It seems that a good AR-15 or similar rifle is more often recommended to those seeking a means of defending their home. It appears that as a result of the shotgun being supported less and less in gun stores across the world and sales of the defensive style shotguns have seemingly slumped.

For some reasons, shotguns seem to have experienced a resurgence of popularity thanks to the overly tactical style of shotguns. Bullpup kits for the popular shotguns like the 870 and 500 are all over the internet and there is even one out there for the Saiga 12 AK style shotguns.

 

home-kush-1

This is the point that I ask you, have shotguns jumped the shark? Are they still relevant in a defensive situation? I say they have made the leap towards irrelevant with the exception of sporting, hunting, and less lethal shotguns for MIL/LEO use.

The DP12 seen below wears a limited edition snakeskin finish that I feel does an excellent job telegraphing the uselessness of the double barrel, double magazine behemoth. Below that is a Crye SIX12 with wood stocks. While cool, what benefit does something like that give the shooter? I contest that there is none other than roping a sucker in for a sale.

Except for developments like the Serbu Super Shorty, there have not been many functional advances in shotguns designed for purposes other than hunting and sports shooting. With the near perfection of the AR-15 platform, I wish the slow folks behind the counter at the local gun store would stop telling people to buy a 12 gauge and just point it in the direction of the person you want to stop. Not only has it been shit advice all along, but it also could get someone hurt.

As for why I feel they have jumped the shark? With the bulk of defensive style shotguns I have seen spoken about recently being scatterguns like the Keltec KSG, DP-12, UTAS-15, and other stupid shotguns, it seems that designs are circling the toilet bowl.

Dear gun makers of America, stop marketing these stupid designs to people as a serious use firearm.ย StdMfg_CustomDP12-52-Edit__64784.1471361994.1280.1280 ย wood



Patrick R

Patrick is a Senior Writer for The Firearm Blog and works in the shooting sports industry. He is an avid recreational shooter and a verified gun nerd. With a lifelong passion for shooting, he has a love for all types of firearms, especially handguns and the AR-15 platform. Patrick may be contacted at tfbpatrick@gmail.com.

The above post is my opinion and does not reflect the views of any company or organization.


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  • DW

    /grabs popcorn

    • crackedlenses

      /grabs soda and pretzels

      • Hanover Fist

        Grabs a girlie and a beer that’s cold.

      • RSG

        Grabs p@ssy??

        • Sunshine_Shooter

          /makes America great again

  • VanDiemensLand

    I would be happy to have a 12 gauge and some 000 buck in a defensive situation, I think it would stop you doing whatever it is you are doing faster than some 556. I’d imagine some of the door kickers here would have an opinion of what they’d least like to encounter, although I’d wager neither…..ever.

    • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

      The door kickers are exactly the group of people that spurred this article. Every one of them I have spoken with over the last year has favored the AR over a 12 gauge for both defensive use as well as entry work.

      • Phillip Cooper

        Tell me about their 5.56 lock defeating loads….

        • AK

          I believe it’s known as detcord. I think Pat is referring to the part after the door is open with regards to “entry work”…

          • Phillip Cooper

            Unless, of course, you want to do a more surgical entry than blowing the damn door off it’s hinges and into the room in pieces. This is precisely why there exist 12ga rounds which remove locks but fragment into powder once they hit.

          • AK

            And you can’t do that with detcord? They even have ready made products which you hang on a door handle for that specific purpose, but a self-made loop will work as well.

        • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

          Oh, you men the ram? Shooting locks isn’t in common use to my knowledge.

  • JoshCalle

    The shotgun still has a place as the #1 budget defensive gun. I can get a norinco Hawk 870 clone for like $189, what else can I get for that price besides a hi-point?

    • VanDiemensLand

      Good point! Affordable long arm, and mostly reliable in pump form.

    • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

      That is litteraly the ONLY defensive situation where it shines above an AR-15.

      • alex waits

        SPORTING CLAYS LIVES MATTER!! They dindu nuffin.

        • Kaiser Dishelm

          They were just on their way to church!

          • Tp

            Now there is a chance that he was trying to be funny (dindu nuffin) just = didn’t do nothing, same as the next persons comment they were just on their way to church, like innocent little old ladies, could be wrong, or others just may be a little quick to jump, and assume?

          • RocketScientist

            HOLY S**T!!!! SHUT IT DOWN BOYS!! SOMEONE MIGHT HAVE SAID SOMETHING THAT SOMEONE SOMEWHERE MIGHT HAVE MAYBE INTERPRETED IN AN OFFENSIVE SUBTEXT!!!! WOOOPWOOOPWOOOP!!! PULL THE PLUG ON THIS WHOLE INTERNET THING!

      • smurf

        Shoot an AR15 and a 12ga indoors without ear pro. Which do you prefer?

        • AK

          Neither. I would keep active earpro near my gun and put it on beforehand if at all possible.

          Also, a flashhider is the only muzzle device appropriate for a fighting rifle.

        • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

          Both suck. Next question?

          • smurf

            buying more gear is so 2012…

          • carlcasino

            My 15 is suppressed but the movies lie a lot.

        • gordon

          My bedroom AR-15 SBR has a very effective suppressor on it. Doesn’t hurt my uncovered ears a bit, even in a room.

      • Matt Collins

        Because we shoot sporting clays with 00-buck & slugs?

        • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

          If you haven’t tried, you haven’t lived.

          • Paul White

            frozen water jugs with slugs = laughs for days

          • carlcasino

            Especially from Station 8. Got close once.

      • Hoplopfheil

        Little known fact that most home invaders are bright orange and made of ceramic.

      • BrandonAKsALot

        You have no idea how many times those clay bastards have tried to break into my house.

        • Tassiebush

          Well they sure break in your house with a shotgun.

      • JesseL

        I’ll take Brenneke slugs over a .223 if I ever have to defend myself from a bear.

    • James

      With an AR in a apartment over penetration is going to be a huge hazard even with frangible ammo. With a shotgun, .410 works great there, you can reduce that down much lower. Add to the situation that most people have no idea how they will react under duress and the working of a pump 12ga is much simpler than fixing any issue from a short stroke on your AR, or any other issues that happen with a removable magazine.
      My self I will continue to use a short barreled 12ga with laser and iridium sights. Thankfully I live in the country without neighbors in my line of fire 360 degrees so slugs are my tool of choice, the wife uses 000 buckshot.

      • AK

        “Overpenetration” should be a non-issue in a HD scenario, since as a responsible defender you will have scouted your backstops, angles and firing positions carefully, right? And clearing a short stroke malfunction where the empty shell is stuck in the firing port with the new shell jamming it in place (akin to double feed) is very time consuming. Modern sporting rifle is superior in all aspects except price and legal considerations in some jurisdictions.

      • marine6680

        Yeah… with good bullet selection, a 223 has already began breaking apart by the time it gets through one interior wall. (60gr varmint type loads… they are considered effective but fragment easily in walls)

        A shotgun, even smaller buckshot will go through several walls. So over penetration is more of an issue with a shotgun…

        Short stroking a pump can create a pretty good jam… So it’s possible to have stress induced issues with a shotgun as well.

        Personally I’m familiar enough with an AR, that I am not confused by issues.

      • Tassiebush

        I’ve played around with shooting inanimate objects like cars and such with 12g and .223 softpoints and I found the lack of penetration very similar with .223 and 00buck. Basically neither made it through the door trim most of the time and if they did they only fell through. I’d guess that the penetration level is very similar. Slugs on the other hand went right through both sides of the car. Smaller shot was obviously way less likely to penetrate.

      • carlcasino

        My wife keeps her Judge at easy reach. I will admit she can outshoot me on my best day. Age has it’s limitations, the .410 stands em up and the .45 LC allows the old man to retrieve the Vaquero in LC. Like to keep my ammo options simple.

    • Core

      I purchased a new Remington 870 Police for $206.00 a while back. They run sales. With the Police model you get the non mim extractor which is the first thing to go on an 870 from my experience.

  • Raginzerker

    I’d much rather have a shotgun for hd, I can’t afford an ar and neither do I want one

  • Gunslinger Hobbs

    The only thing obsolete in the shotgun world is the anachronistic rimmed ammunition that nearly necessitates tube magazines. All other forms of ammunition have moved to rimless, but development in shotgun ammo lags behind. Add in the overly soft, flexible sides of paper and plastic shotshells that “oval out” under the spring tension of a box magazine, dragging on the sides of the mag and failing to present to the feed lips, and it’s easy to see why companies trying to keep the scattergun relevant are resorting to gimmicks like the DP-12. If rimless shotshells made with more rigid plastics or fully made of brass were introduced alongside reliable magazine fed firearms to feed them, the versatility of the shotgun would see a renaissance.

    • Major Tom

      Brass shotshells are a thing ya know.

      • Gunslinger Hobbs

        Yes, I know of them, and I’ve been looking into them recently. There are a few small problems though.

        1. Still rimmed. Not likely to cause a problem, but it’s an unnecessary variable that needs correcting. No other serious self defense self loading firearm uses rimmed ammo.

        2. They do not exist in loaded ammo, only empty shells for the DIY’er, and even then they’re expensive and somewhat difficult to find. If you know where a guy can get factory ammo in full brass hulls, though, please, let me know.

        3. Load data is sketchy and inconsistent. I’ve read three magazine articles and three message boards, and each one had different, sometimes conflicting information. From “These are for blackpowder ONLY!!” To “Theyre stronger and longer lasting than plastic, so load em up hot and have fun!” It seems there’s no real consensus on how to actually load these things, at least that I’ve found so far.

        • Major Tom

          ” No other serious self defense self loading firearm uses rimmed ammo.”

          Clearly you’ve never had or fired something in 7.62x54R or .303 British.

          • Tinkerer

            Please tell us more about your self defense Dragunov.

          • Gary Kirk

            I use a pkm

          • Tinkerer

            Afghanistan is such a tough neighborhood… or was it Detroit?

          • Gary Kirk

            Baltimore/ SE D.C.

          • Phillip Cooper

            There’s a difference?

          • wetcorps

            OBREZ

          • Tinkerer

            Please tell us more about your self loading, hacksawed Mosin Nagant

          • iksnilol

            Or Saiga, or Vepr, or PSL.

            I don’t find a 7.62×54 Saiga to be an unrealistic choice for some people.

          • AK

            Wouldn’t still be first choice, except in very limited scenarios.

          • iksnilol

            Doesn’t have to be first choice, but is proof that an autoloader in a rimmed cartrdige isn’t so bad as that guy was whining about them being.

          • AK

            Show me a guy who has semiauto something firing a rimmed cartridge who doesn’t have an AK or AR in one of the three common calibers. That guy will grab the AK or AR, trust me.

          • Phillip Cooper

            Both of which are also pretty anachronistic.

            Yes, 7.62X54R is used in MGs by modern militaries- but we’re not discussing MGs. That’s why the man said “SEMI-automatic”.

          • Jared Vynn

            PSL is a Semi-Automatic rifle.

          • AK

            I wouldn’t class a WW2 vintage rifle as a serious self defense tool. Useful, yes. First choice, no. Also goes for any belt fed weapon, unless your likely SD scenario will involve a zombie invasion.

    • ARCNA442

      I’m not sure that would help all that much. The shotshell would remain significantly larger than any centerfire cartridge and thus limit capacity. Further, a shotgun would remain a large high-recoil weapon with limited range and accuracy. It’s advantages are its high single shot damage and huge array of ammunition. The former is far less important today with our plethora of high capacity rapid fire weapons and the latter makes it difficult to properly tune a semiauto.

      The defensive shotgun made a lot of sense when it’s competitors were large-caliber bolt-actions and pistol-caliber lever guns. It even kept going through the introduction of expensive .30 semiauto rifles. But the widespread adoption of affordable small-caliber semiauto rifles has simply upstaged it.

      • AK

        Agreed. Both are useful, but if given a choice, I would take an AK or AR with 30 rounds instead of any shotgun for the shooting part of any confrontation. In places with legal restrictions (CA), a shotgun may still be the superior choice.

    • iksnilol

      Ooor, hear me out, make a shotgun based on the PKM.

      A belt fed shotgun wouldn’t have the issues of the magazines and rimmed cartridge. And the PKM design ensures light weight and reliability with rimmed ammo.

      • Bullphrog855

        nah, I want a shotgun based on the M-14. Detachable mags and can top off the mag on the fly.

        • iksnilol

          Would still have the issue of having mags and the issues that follow them.

          • AK

            How about a magazine design that could be filled through a separate port when attached to the weapon, or removed and replaced if needed?

          • iksnilol

            Yeah, but still:

            soft plastic shells + spring pressure

            And also we’ve all seen a Saiga 12 round magazine. Going belt fed would allow you much more compact ammo boxes instead.

          • AK

            Ever tried to reload a belt fed in a hurry? It’s harder and takes longer than you think…

            Also, weight is a serious issue with 12ga.

          • iksnilol

            Soooo, what if it takes a long time to reload? Keep 50 rounds on tap and you don’t need to reload.

            And yeah, sure, it’d weigh a bit but you gotta have sacrificies for compact firepower (bonus compact+balance if made into a bullpup like the PKM has been made).

          • AK

            That sounds like the most impractical weapon ever. And what if you have a malfunction. That takes also a relatively long time to clear in a belt fed and usually two hands. I don’t remember when the last time was when I fired a shotgun from prone…
            Bro, do you even machinegun?

          • iksnilol

            Why would it be impractical? Would be more practical than fiddling with lose shells or gigantic magazines all the time.

          • AK

            What is your application for this contraption? And don’t tell me the “IPSC belt-fed class shotgun” competition. You shouldn’t be comparing practicality to a gigantic mag saiga or an 870, but to any firearm that is suitable for the job. In home defence that would be an AR or AK, for example.

          • iksnilol

            Umm, gee, I dunno, what would you do with an automatic shotgun with 50-100 round capacity and less than 900 mm length (with a legal length barrel)? I am really stumped.

            Hint: it’d be good at killing stuff up close. For crying out loud, the UK military actually bought the Fostech Origin-12. In all its pizza box sized drum mag and tactically kitted up glory. So if that thing can survive, so could my “contraption”.

            But yeah, for normal people that “contraption” might’a been overkill, but eh, 12 gauge is pretty cheap and fun. And again, just because it is overkill doesn’t mean it is useless ๐Ÿ™‚

          • AK

            “Having fun” is not a practical application. And I know one thing that you wouldn’t be doing with that gun – moving anywhere fast. 100 rounds of 12 gauge will weigh about 10 lbs, so you would have an approx. 20lbs weapon system. And that belt can will be huge. And belt feed is impractical in anything that’s not supported or fired prone. Sigh…

          • iksnilol

            Having fun wouldn’t be the only consideration.

            Besides, 100 rounds was only an example, more realistic would be 50 rounds. that belt can wouldn’t be nearly as huge per round as a 30 round drum mag for 12 gauge already is. And English special forces did use that sucker.

            What I am saying is that my idea might be “stupid and impractical” but not more stupid and impractical than what is already in limited use. Sure, would be a special occasion weapon but doesn’t mean it wouldn’t dominate in its niche.

            Belt fed wouldn’t be an issue even if not supported or fired prone. You only think it would be an issue since you are comparing it to existing belt feds which are MGs which have more recoil and are used at much farther ranges than a shotgun would be used.

          • AK

            As I said earlier, the main issue with belt feds will be the operation when you don’t have two hands to load and clear malfunctions, especially considering the weight of the system even with only 50 rounds (15 lbs!!!).

          • iksnilol

            Again, loading is irrelevant. This is a load and done deal. I don’t know many folks running through more than 50-100 shotgun shells in a fight (that is if they even carry that many).

            Malfunctions shouldn’t be an issue with a PKM design. And what malfunctions can happen, nothing that can’t be solved the standard way. Again, you’re stressing small stuff here.

          • AK

            Have you used a PKM? If you have, you would know that you don’t want to load it before you’re in a firing position due to the design. Otherwise you will find out that you have a loose round bopping around in your receiver that is jamming up the action, since you accidentally tilted your barrel up while running around with the gun. And if you get a malfunction in a russian belt fed, you will use your right hand to operate the cover, tray and bolt (making sure it doesn’t slam on your left hand), while your left hand will be yanking on the belt and clearing the crap out of the receiver. You need two hands available to operate a belt fed, that’s why they don’t use the system for assault rifles. It’s small stuff, but it makes all the difference.

          • iksnilol

            You can’t run around with a PKM? That’s the first time I heard about that being an issue. Like, I’ve seen plenty of folks go around with ’em and all, some even running with them with no issue. I think a gun that has to be kept unloaded right until before static use wouldn’t really be succesful.

            And is it really hard to make a detent of some kind to keep the cover up when opening it all the way open? I think not.

            And who said that the system would be used for assault rifles? I mean, shotguns by definition aren’t rifles. So silly comparison there.

          • AK

            You have obviously never used a PKM, or any other belt fed gun. The problem of the loose round comes due to the rimmed cartridge, because the round is pulled from the belt when the bolt is retreating, and it may jam the gun if it moves before being pushed in the chamber. And the cover and tray will stay open on most machineguns, that’s not the problem. You just need two hands to clear malfunctions rapidly on belt fed designs, it would be really difficult to do one-handed standing up, etc.

          • iksnilol

            Why would it move if the claw is holding it?

            Again, it’s a non-issue.

          • AK

            The “claw” will grab the next round when bolt and bolt carrier slam forward on firing. Once the bolt carrier retreats due to firing or pulling on bolt handle, the claw will pull the round out of the belt. Once the round clears the belt, it will drop down from the claw in front of the bolt, which will push the round in the chamber once the trigger is pulled. If there is a delay between the round dropping down and firing, the round may jiggle around in the receiver, causing a jam. This most commonly occurs when the barrel is tilted up. This is why most PKM operators will keep the weapon unloaded (claw grabbing first round on belt) until in the firing position and only charge weapon once it will not be moved before firing. Please go play around with a PKM and you will understand.

          • Tassiebush

            I’d use a beltfed 12gauge to shoot ducks on a commercial scale.

          • Bullphrog855

            This is what I meant. On the old WW2 rifles, you can top off your magazine via clips while it’s in your gun. Take that and apply it to a Shotgun with a detachable mag.

          • AK

            I think the key point would be to be able to top off while the weapon is in fire-ready condition, breach closed.

          • iksnilol

            Soo, a Krag shotgun?

          • AK

            Off the top of my head, the best solution would be something like a Russian AK drum type solution (= Magpul PMAG D60-type), where you can press a lever and take the spring pressure off, with the additional feature of simultaneously opening up a loading port on the side of the riser of the mag.

        • DW

          You want an improved Johnson M1941 in 20 or 12 ga.

          • gunsandrockets

            A Johnson type rotary magazine for a semi-auto shotgun? Good idea!

      • Paul White

        A belt fed shotgun makes my inner mall ninja tingly

        • Gary Kirk

          My reply to iksni is still awaiting approval, but go on YouTube and search belt fed shotgun.. Wanna say it’s like DM industries or something

        • iksnilol

          I find it anti-mall ninja.

          You can’t afford the weight of adding on accessories (maybe a light and red dot at best) due to having like 2.5 kg of shells in it (from a 50 round belt). And you also can’t do cool mag loading thingies and whatnot since it isn’t really intended to be reloaded quickly or often.

          • Paul White

            but…it’s belt fed. and it’s a shotgun. Redneck mall ninja dream combo.

          • iksnilol

            Nah, buddy, it’s a special purpose CQB weapons system.

            Not tactical or redneck at all ๐Ÿ˜‰ *wink wink*

        • Spencer

          Reads headline. Reads comment. Reads headline… Signs point to yes.

      • Gary Kirk

        Hey iksni, check out belt fed shotgun on YouTube.. Tried to post a link, in limbo..

        • iksnilol

          I know about that one, saw the vid a long time ago. Was amazing.

      • Anomanom

        Stop that, I can only get so erect.

        • iksnilol

          Finally! Someone with good sense.

      • gunsandrockets

        .410 PKM shotgun shooting 4 or 5 pellets of 000 buckshot per round.

        • iksnilol

          Why .410? … Like, why wuss out like that.

          Either go for 12 gauge or .45/70.

          • gunsandrockets

            Why? Because just like the Saiga .410 shotgun, a .410 conversion of a 7.62R firearm is simpler and easier.

          • iksnilol

            True, but I was thinking scratch build that’s basically a larger PKM made with lower pressures in mind.

          • gunsandrockets

            A .410 conversion of the PKM would not only be easier, but can you imagine the weight and recoil (and ammo weight!) of a 12 gauge PKM?

            In addition, I bet the dispersion of .410 000 buckshot is tighter than 12 gauge 000 buckshot.

          • iksnilol

            Actually, a 12 gauge PKM could weigh muuuch less due to the low pressures of shotgun ammo.Even the highest pressure 12 gauge is well below half the pressure of standard 7.62x54mmR loads.

      • Ryfyle

        I need that. I need that real bad!

      • Porty1119

        I NEED THIS IN MY LIFE.

      • Brett

        I would be interested in an upside down saiga/vepr 12 mg 47 franken-gun.

    • Phillip Cooper

      Totally agree. This is the ONLY reason I haven’t bought a Saiga-12.

    • Jared Vynn

      Shotgun shells need the rim to space on as shotgun chambers can accept various lengths of cartridges. To move to rimless you would have to design the chamber to fire only one shell size losing a lot of the flexibility of shotguns, you would also have to move to an all brass hull to ensure the case is the correct size to properly space inside the chamber which would increase the cost for shells.

      It’s like saying 22lr needs to be converted to center-fire.

      • Badwolf

        In spite of the disadvantages you mentioned, I hope someone is brave enough to try making a rimless round anyway (and the gun to fire it). More options is always better. And I’m curious how well it will do in the market.

        • ozzallos .

          They have. The company tried and folded, leaving their specialized AR variant shotty that could only use the specialized shells to rot on the surplus market.

      • Goody

        A belted case head would do the trick. Even a ‘neck’ on the brass case head would be interesting to look at, if the wide ‘body’ was long enough it would become the load bearing surface in stacked mags.

    • Matt Collins

      If the rim of shotshells is your beef, then try the Intrepid RAS-12 (AR style) with rebated rim shells. It’s overpriced and unnecessary though given the ain’t-broke / don’t-fix-it nature of reliable typical shotshells in much lower priced / higher-cap shotgun models.

    • Tassiebush

      It’d be interesting to see what could be done to create a superior type of shotshell if starting from a clean slate? It raises heaps of questions on the limitations on what is possible like how fast could hardened steel shot be propelled while still patterning okay if the gun could handle rifle like pressure levels? How long a shot column could be used? What would a wad/shot cup be like if it was designed for Max velocity and didn’t have to be as bulky as we are used to given that it’s not having to act as filler on a 19th century case using modern propellant. Another consideration is would cases just be straight walled steel and rimless instead of what we’re used to? What bore or calibre would the optimal all rounder new case be?
      Other thoughts include things like fletchetts. But it’d be about trying to have a step forward for normal shotgunning use.

  • DIR911911 .

    dumbest article ever. come in my house and see how well a 12 gauge treats you.

    • RSG

      That’s not the point of this article. Do you have a traditional shotgun? Well, that’s all he thinks is “needed”. And although they’re quite formidable, I never advocate to stifle innovation.

      • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

        No, that is literally the point. I feel that defensive shotguns have outlived their usefulness and shooters should instead turn to the Ar/Ak platform instead.

        • RSG

          I understand and agree with advocating for “modern” rifles as the primary tool for any and all civilian defense, when possible (otherwise a handgun). The article does, however, advocate for traditional shotguns (over the new fangled ones), if that’s the platform that one chooses.

          • AK

            Traditional shotguns have more applications than these modern designs, which are built for only one application – and in that particular application, an intermediate caliber semiauto rifle is superior.

  • janklow

    maybe we could get some sweet NON-12-gauge semi-auto shotgun options. like, i’m not that big of a guy, Firearms Manufacturers.

    • DW

      There exist a handful of reasonably tacticool 20ga. autoloaders.

      • Evil_Bonsai

        I had actually once wanted to buy one of those Turkish versions. REALLY tried to find a better option, but there just weren’t that many. Now that Turkish version is discontinued, as far as I know. I think the only option would be buy SOMETHING available in semi-auto 20ga, then mount it, if possible, to some aftermarket stock kit.

        • AK

          Those Turkish shotguns are really quite POS’s…

  • GD Ajax

    The shot at the Crye SIX12 is mostly undeserved. It’s one of the two most innovative shotguns of the decade, along with the SRM Arms Model 1216.
    However I will cop to the fact that the wood furniture makes it look butt ugly. Why do that to a perfectly fine gun? Excuse me while I go barf.
    On another note. If one need AR and/or AK ergos on your shotgun, I think its the shooter who is the problem.

    • Bullphrog855

      “On another note. If one need AR and/or AK ergos on your shotgun, I think its the shooter who is the problem.”

      That is hitting the nail on the head.

      • Evil_Bonsai

        “On another note. If one needs AR and/or AK ergos on your rifle, I think it’s the shooter who is the problem.” is also a valid viewpoint. Garands and Enfields were good enough for your daddy/grandaddy/great-grandaddy., they should be good enough for you.

        • ARCNA442

          So you would be happy with the ergos of a matchlock musket? After all, they were good enough for the men who used them.

          • Evil_Bonsai

            That’s the point. Those that seem to think such ergos are NOT NEEDED because “shotgun.” You have pistol-grip, railed large-mag rifles that are fun and easy to shoot (a lot), why not the same for shotguns? The writer seems to say that shotguns should be Long, pump, and standard-shaped and that anything else (i.e. NEW) is dumb.

          • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

            Again. No. I am saying that ALL shotguns are subpar when used as a defensive tool and there are better options out there like a semi-auto rifle chambered in an intermediate cartridge. My point is the non-traditional shotguns are a byproduct of softer shotgun sales and shifting opinion.

          • Evil_Bonsai

            OK, I would say that, yeah, for defensive use, a 20 round mag’d bullpu shotgun may not be entirely suited for [italic font]defensive[/italic font] use. A simple, 5-round pump WOULD suffice for THAT. However, I see no wrong in a ‘run what you brung’ mindset, such that IF you happened to fancy that 12-round revolving shotgun, no harm in using it as well for self-defense. My comment arose from “Keltec KSG, DP-12, UTAS-15, and other stupid shotguns”, such that it makes it sound as though anything other than a standard format was “stupid.” I like them all. I have no care for fancy, dressed up, tricked out automobiles, but I hear there’s a hell of a community for them. I see no reason gun aficionados can’t move in that direction.

          • Porty1119

            Wait, you find pistol grips and rails make a firearm EASIER to shoot? That has been the exact opposite of my experience. My defensive carbine is a Marlin .30-30, and I think quad rails are an abomination best used for grating parmesan.

        • Bullphrog855

          I think he meant you can’t force a circular peg in a square hole.

        • GD Ajax

          The point I was making is that the AR and AK have become extreme crutches for bad shooters. You don’t need a shotgun shaped like either to shoot well.

          The Neostead handles just fine.(not the Turkish and Keltec knock offs) The FABARM FP6 is also one of the lightest pump actions to exist. So you don’t need AR/AK ergonomics to fire a shotgun well.

  • Bullphrog855

    Of course they are relevent.

    Shotguns haven’t “Jump the shark” because the tacticool blow hards heads are in the clouds about unpractical designs, or taking good designs and making them unpractical.

  • Major Tom

    Ya know, I’d rather have all these “tacticool” shotguns marketed about then YET ANOTHER AR-15 clone.

    • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

      I don’t know about you but I think I would rather have the most effective tool on the market. When you run the numbers, that isn’t a shotgun.

      • Sunshine_Shooter

        Source? What were the numbers you ran? How did you come up with them, and how did you run them?

        • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

          7-9 rounds < 30 rounds

        • RealitiCzech

          Every sensible person who’s looked at it. The AR is a superior platform to the shotgun for defensive purposes. Doesn’t make the shotgun into a glitter gun, but it is not the best choice.

          • Sunshine_Shooter

            There are numerous ways to look at the situation, I was merely asking what his way was. It’s not as simple as you make it out to be.

            Kinetic energy per trigger pull => shotgun wins
            Rounds expended before reload => AR wins

            These are examples of numbers a person could run and yet come up with different results.

  • Robert

    Have overly-opinionated gun bloggers jumped the shark? Maybe so, maybe so.

    • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

      You litteraly come here to read our opinion.

      • Tinkerer

        That doesn’t mean he has to agree with it.

        And it’s “literally”

        • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

          Don’t agree with me? Fine. Come at it with a solid argument and we can debate the finer points of why the shotgun is lacking in many defensive situations.

      • Phillip Cooper

        No, I come here to read industry news, not editorials.

      • Robert

        I come here to read informed opinions, not dopey opinions like the ones expressed in this blog. Hence the description “overly-opinionated bloggers”. The “overly” is the key there, you see.

        • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

          I will be sure to have the billing people refund your subscription.

          • Robert

            Ouch! I have been impaled upon your rapier-like wit.

        • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

          Ah. My opinion is dopey because you disagree with it even though experts all over the world agree. Carry on my small minded friend.

          • Cory C

            Patrick, all due respect, but if you can’t stand the heat… you know the rest.

            I have a short fuse and I get butt hurt easily, so it’s easier for me to give that (unsolicited) advice than follow it, but it doesn’t make you look good when you defend your article by trading cheap jabs with your site’s visitors. It seems petty and beneath you.

            For what it’s worth, I really like the article (the artwork had me rolling), even though I disagree with you. I’d suggest that shotguns haven’t jumped the shark, rather the desire to go full-on “Pimp My Ride” on shotguns has jumped the shark.

            In my judgment, debating the efficacy of a shotgun vs. an AR-15 is like debating the merits of a Jeep Wrangler vs. a Hummer. The point being that a shotgun has always been about giving you a bunch of firepower for very little money. Is an AR better? Yes, but we take for granted that most of us can either comfortably afford a modern carbine or we can’t afford them but make sacrifices to buy one anyway. For most Americans, fancy guns are a luxury, so a shotgun gives them a chance to buy something seriously effective for $300.

            That said, if your point is that shotgun manufacturers have gilded the lily so much that they’ve transformed what should be a cheap option into a legitimate price competitor with a (better in most every way) AR-15, then, sure, I agree with you.

    • Bullphrog855

      Issue is that, it’s just a rant. The writer doesn’t even support his rant with any thing of substance, when he clearly says he’s going to explain why he feels the way he does. He comes up short with a non argument back up by sarcasm.

    • Just say’n

      The author clearly labeled the title as an opinion piece.
      I don’t agree that shotguns have “jumped the shark” either. If you can only have/afford one gun a 12 ga is the answer.
      Joe Biden would agree!

    • Slobberjaw

      I think the point Patrick is making is that the shotgun is getting pushed beyond what it is. Shotguns are very versatile. The same gun can shoot deer, flying birds, rabbits, and still be used as a defensive tool with little more than changing the ammo and the barrel. That is where the shotgun shines. That being said, that doesn’t make it the best choice for defensive situations, no matter how much you dress it up, when compared to the better options now available.

  • A Fascist Corgi

    Don’t listen to him. I still want a semi-automatic bullpup shotgun.

  • cwp

    The shotgun, as a defensive firearm, is in a place similar to where the revolver was in the 1980s and early 1990s: it still does the job, and the superiority of newer and better options is not yet broadly acknowledged, especially among traditionalists. There are still an awful lot of people who aren’t aware of things like how 5.56mm behaves in drywall, and those people buy guns, too.

    Even once that issue goes away, I doubt that shotguns are going anywhere. In addition to the cost factor, states with magazine-capacity limits are also probably likely to retain a higher attachment to them, for much the same reason .45 stayed popular during the AWB: if you only get 10 rounds, an 8-shot 12-gauge may sound more appealing than 10 rounds of 5.56.

    • Anomanom

      There’s a place and purpose for everything. The bolt action rifle is still going strong how many years after the invention of the semi auto. And the lever action is even older and still in use.

      • AK

        Agreed. Revolvers still fill very specific niches, even in the “tactical” world, such as operating with a ballistic shield. They are also dead nuts reliable with practically zero maintenance, unlike a modern pistol (ie. left alone in a drawer for 20 years). Shotguns are great low-budget tools that will do the job in the house and garden. Not that I’m advocating just buying some gun and not training regularly in its use, that should be a given.

        • Jared Vynn

          Revolvers can also be chambered in larger cartridges than most autos can be.

        • CommonSense23

          Explain how a revolver can be left alone in a drawer while a modern pistol can’t for 20 years.

          • AK

            It can, but there is a higher chance of malfunction due to dried lubricant, dirt ingress, spring set, ammunition corrosion, etc.

          • CommonSense23

            Um, how do any of those not effect revolvers more? Ammo corrosion somehow doesn’t effect a revolver more?Dirt ingress is far bigger issues with a revolver than a sealed up semi? Dried lubricant? Shot plenty of bone dry pistols without issue? They will easily take care of any situation for home defense without lube.

          • Jared Vynn

            Thing is the handguns are in a drawer so there wouldn’t be a lot of dirt ingress so the revolver would be fine in that regard while the auto may have its lube/oil turn to mud as dust comes in contact, or turn to sludge as it ages hindering operation.

          • AK

            Revolver ammo is already in the chamber, so there won’t be feeding issues with corroded cases. Dirt ingress and dried (and typically caked) lubrication will cause a malfunction mainly with increased friction on the slide rail, which there is none on a revolver.
            I’m not saying that pistols are not reliable, but that they are less reliable in the typical “left in drawer for decades” scenario than revolvers. In any case, I personally would grab an AK for any “bump in the night” scenario.

      • Jared Vynn

        Bolt actions and lever actions have a significant over autos, they can fire larger cartridges than most autos while often weighing less.

        • Anomanom

          Exactly my point, purpose and a place. What other gun besides a shotgun can fire a block of candle wax poured over shot, 1/3 of a frozen hot dog, or any of that other random crap Taofladermaus has used as ammunition.

    • RealitiCzech

      The shotgun has gone past its era of mystique and people are seeing it for what it is, a smoothbore bullet launcher that is limited to pistol range. You have the weight of a real rifle, with far less capacity and range – which is why they’ve had only limited military use. They still work quite well, but an AR is a better choice unless birds are your most common home invaders.

  • MrFN

    Sigh, everyone always forgets this exists: https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/fb546f48aa80fadebfbbd3c0e490d9223e24265b022f31e49212118e0a60f44e.jpg
    If you can give a good reason as to why I wouldn’t choose 16 rounds of 12g aside from cost, I’m waiting. I agree on the UTS (cause the damn thing doesn’t work) and the DP-12 (cause the thing is useless), but really? Six12 serves the same purpose as the Serbu (but better HA!) and KSG is great, although early ones are touchy. I can’t even, shotguns aren’t useful for defense. Jesus.

    • Sunshine_Shooter

      Side note, how heavy is that thing when loaded with 16+1 00 buck?

      • MrFN

        Company gives a weight of 7 and 1/4 lbs, figure fully loaded is close to 8.5 lbs. That’s still pretty good, actually. I was expecting worse.

        • iksnilol

          Only minus is that you need to rotate the mag every 4 rounds.

          • DW

            Better than pumping after each shot and having to reload after 4-5 (similar length pump shotguns hold 4-5 rounds, 6 for some tho)

          • iksnilol

            True, though I think folks wouldn’t mind some sort of autorotation. Though that would make it more complicated :/

  • Emfourty Gasmask

    I use a shotgun in home defense mostly so I cant get screwed over in a court of law in case the DA decides to be hostile. Most people have accepted the shotgun as an acceptable home defense weapon and always picture grandpas remington wingmaster, when a shotgun is mentioned. Keeps my ass out of prison.

    • Patrick R. – Senior Writer

      Wait. What? Is this the same line of thought that keeps people from modifying a carry gun?

      • Emfourty Gasmask

        I worked as a court clerk for years and saw what kind of bullshit goes on in the DA’s office ๐Ÿ˜› not taking a chance.

        As a side to the whole article, have you ever tried the Flight Control stuff from Federal? The #1 shot with the flight control wad was patterning out to 40 or so yards for me very very well. Maybe a lot of the development went into ammunition?

      • Slim934

        The underlying reasoning is 100% true though. Go watch the Louder with Crowder video where he pretends to be a gun control guy doing a survey on what should and should not be legal for ownership. Invariably “grandpa’s” rifle and shotgun should be left alone, and that “scary black rifle” should be banned.

        And these idiots are typically the people selected as jurors.

  • Jake

    The same people who ruin shotguns tend to ruin everything else

  • Paul White

    Eh, ARs are better but I haven’t seen an AR I’d trust as a self defense gun for under ~500ish, and it’s usually more like ~600 (if you’re buying rather than building). You can get a perfectly fine pump for 200. Those of us that enjoy guns for their own sake may be willing to swallow a 300-400 dollar price difference, but a lot of folks aren’t. And frankly, I’d wager a 12 gauge loaded with reduced recoil #1 buckshot from Federal will handle 99.99999% of all situations just fine.

    • AK

      This is the best argument for a shotgun as HD tool. Then again, how much is your life worth? It is also easier to put lead on target with an AR or AK than a pump shotgun, especially for a lady or a minor. Training should be a given if acquiring a firearm (for any purpose).

      • Paul White

        Honestly, none of the women I’ve helped pick out a gun (and admittedly it isn’t a huge number) had any problem with either an AR or a 20 gauge pump at 15 yards.

        And it’s easy to say “how much is your life worth” but when the option that cost 1/2 (or less) as much is perfectly adequate, and you’ve got bills to pay…

  • iksnilol

    Wow, somebody is grumpy today.

  • M

    I thought the point of the Crye six12 was not for the standalone version but rather as an underbarrel multishot shotgun for LEO/Military. Might be heavy but still a legitimate concept. I don’t think they’ve jumped the shark on that one.

  • Phillip Cooper

    I couldn’t disagree with the article more.
    For self-defense shooting distances, a 5.56 is more likely to go through the target- as is a 12-gauge.. and through several layers of wall behind them.

    I know my own situation is pretty typical- I live in suburbia, and should there ever be a home invaasion (not entirely unrealistic, as there have been several this year within 5 miles), I’m concerned about any shot I take exiting the structure and harming innocents. Bear in mind, you’re responsible for whatever you send out of the pipe, until it stops moving.

    My personal pick? 20 gauge youth model, hunting stock, and #4 buck, reduced recoil loading if I can find it.

    That said, YMMV. What works for me in close quarters (suburbia, in a subdivision) won’t work for living in the sticks where your nearest neighbor may be a mile away. However, do still consider the layout of your home, and lines of fire- if your child’s room is at the other end of the hall from the bedroom you’ll be sleeping in, do you really want to engage with 00-buck or a 5.56 not knowing if your child is about to open their door to see what all the commotion is, right in your line of fire?

    Come down to it, there is no one gun or one answer.

    • CommonSense23

      5.56 hands down wins if over penetration is a issue.

      • Major Tom

        If you have overpenetration concerns why are you using anything other than JHP type pistol calibers or .22LR? Or better yet a shotgun with soft shot?

        Don’t give me that crap about common household wall materials. Drywall has the density of paper, everything goes through drywall. My FIST goes through drywall. If you have a bullet load that does not go through drywall well…are you going to say your bullets have less firepower than my fist? I’m far from the strongest man or a major gym rat who can bench a half ton.

        • iksnilol

          Pistol JHPs go farther than 5.56 frangible or varmint loads.

    • AK

      “Overpenetration” should be a non-issue in a home defense situation. You need to know your firing positions and angles beforehand, and make the necessary changes to cover the likely avenues of approach to family members safely and effectively (ie. don’t have the kids’ room at the other end of the house)

      • Phillip Cooper

        Well I’m sorry, some of us are neither psychic nor can we afford to completely reconfigure the house.

        • AK

          Well, it wouldn’t be that pricey to make alterations to funnel the potential attack where you want (or hopefully preventing it altogether). Something simple as planting thorny bushes under windows, removing potential outside ladders to upper floors, instituting a family routine of securing entrances, motion activated lights, etc.

          • Phillip Cooper

            Clearly you’re not married to my wife.
            Bright woman. Has degrees to prove it.
            Dumb as a post when it comes to lockin’ a ruttin’ door…..

          • The_Champ

            Hahaha

          • AK

            Door pumps and automatically locking locks? ๐Ÿ™‚

  • The_Champ

    Just a thought, while we are on the subject, about familiarity with your defensive gun of choice.
    I’ve done a ton of bird hunting with my Remington 870 for the last 15 years. That’s thousands of rounds fired at fast moving, living targets in not always optimal conditions.
    I’d argue that sort of experience and comfort with a firearm is hard to build up and I think should be considered when choosing a defensive gun. Being intimately familiar and experienced with your particular gun may serve you better when the SHTF than having the latest greatest mall ninja rig you haven’t shot much.
    My two cents.

  • westford86

    If you want to talk about jumping the shark, look at the AR15 industry. Everyone has run out of useful stuff to design, and now rifles are turning into gaudy stupid looking things with bright colors and superfluous accessories. Companies like Strike Industries need to go away…

    • AK

      The next revolution will be in intelligent optics and sensors.

      • westford86

        Just like the car world, electronics will enable people with no skill.

        • AK

          I think the skill aspect will be diminished more toward the long-range shooting. For home defence, I see things like better targeting information (graphic overlays) and ability to see through surfaces (preplaced sensors throughout house) as more practical applications.

  • Bdpenn

    These home defense discussions are frustrating aren’t they? We go from concerns of over penetration from pistol rounds to irrelevance of shotguns in these situations to the AK/ AR as the perfect home defender. Go figure. Maybe the AR/AK is the answer as long as you use a Hornady critical defense tipped sub sonic round. Might even be appropriate for your pistol and even a shotgun round could be engineered to create less recoil and be extremely effective in enclosed spaces. As for the tacticool shotguns, to each their own. Let the market decide, it always does.

    • AK

      Any normal round (even FMJ) out of an AK or AR will be more effective than your best “manstopper” JHP pistol round. There is simply no comparison. Add to that the easier shot placement with a rifle. Any missed shot will be dangerous, and a self defense round should be able to defeat drywall and other basic concealement. In your house you can figure out angles and firing positions beforehand (and you should!), so “overpenetration” is a non-issue.

      • Bdpenn

        Your right, overpenetration is a non issue. Hit , miss, with a pistol, shotgun, AK or AR. Wish things happen in a perfect world, but, they don’t. Hopefully whatever the situation there is a good outcome for the good guys.
        My comment was actually directed at the silly debates we engage in when home defense firearms and cartridges are the subject.
        Last week it was overpenetration, this week its about shotguns verse AR or AK or more like shotguns verse shotguns. Whatever. So, I merely took an overall look at common concerns and suggested a lowered velocity cartridge with a suitable bullet, ball or slug (you make the call) that may resolve Some of the issues. Seems to me the answer is about the cartridge and not the arm.
        In my house neither AR/AK or a shotgun is viable do to constricted spaces. They are simply not good choices for me in my house. So, do I agree with you perferring an AR, yes I do. It’s just that the choice is not a one size fits all on a number of levels. The same goes for any shotgun. There is no reason other than a lack of innovation that a cartridge manufacturer or talented entrepreneur can’t design a limited blast low recoil even shortened round to allow for more available rounds that can be effective in close quarters. (That is a mouth full)
        Thanks for your reply.

        • AK

          Do you live in a burrow? The best tactic for home defence is to set up firing alleys from a protected position and ambush, not to actively go out to seek and engage the bad guys. For this, choose the rifle. I don’t buy this “constricted spaces” stuff. And a pistol properly extended will take more room than a carbine, while hits will be harder to make even then, not to talk about firing “close in”. And I guarantee the rifle will end that fight a lot quicker with equal shot placement (while in fact the placement will be better as stated above).

          • Bdpenn

            AK, In all seriousness, The NRA has a course for folks that sound like you. Personnel Protection in The Home. Please check it out.
            Thanks again for the reply and no, I don’t live in a burrow or a bunker.
            Thanks for your input.

          • AK

            I would choose a pistol over a rifle if it was the only option available for me. At home, it shouldn’t be – ever.

          • Major Tom

            “The best tactic for home defence is to set up firing alleys from a protected
            position and ambush, not to actively go out to seek and engage the bad
            guys.”

            You sound like the kind of guys who write those idiotic “duty to retreat” self-defense laws.

          • AK

            It’s just smart tactics, a force multiplier. In the military, the general rule is that the defender has a 3 to 1 advantage from a well prepared position. As a home defender you usually don’t know how many intruders there may be, and while generally they will run at first shot, that may not always be the chance.

    • Paul White

      It’s so frustrating because we’re past the point of “good enough”. Unless you’re fighting off the damn cartels or an actual SWAT team, a 5 or 6 or 7 +1 pump is certainly capable, and it’s cheap both to buy and practice with.

      But that doesn’t sell guns so everyone needs an AR that cost 500+…and now we may have the HPA so everyone needs a 300 blackout AR with a can. And sooner or later there’s be a new wonder gun. But the 12 gauge pump’ll still be enough to handle any 2 or 3 intruders.

  • Matthew Groom

    While I also believe that modern shotguns are stupid, including the design I played a small role in developing, the idea that some people seem to have that they are obsolete or bad choices for home defense or tactical work is ludicrous.

    First of all, a conventional 12 gauge pump is CHEAP, usually costing less new than most quality handguns cost used, and around half of what an economy AR costs, in addition to being very reliable, and devastatingly effective. There’s almost certainly no other weapons system on the market for the money that offers the flexibility and utility of a CONVENTIONAL pump shotgun. Arguments about capacity and speed of reloads smack of snobbery and ignorance, since an absurdly high number (insert random percentage here) of defensive shootings in the US involve fewer than five shots (I believe that the most recent statistc is 2.5 rounds with a typical handgun, and a 12 or 20 guage shotgun would do considerably more damage).

    You can also buy a shotgun when you are 18, and then save your money for the next 3 years to buy a quality handgun, instead of wasting every penny trying to trick out a generic AR that you can’t hunt birds or deer with in most states. The chances that you might want to go hunting may be slim, but that’s certainly more likely than your needs to dispatch a zombie biker gang on your front lawn.

    You can own a shotgun in all 50 states and DC, which until recently prohibited the ownership of handguns entirely, except under extremely onerous circumstances. Therefore, would you take an AR with a (recently banned) bullet button and a semi-fixed 10 round magazine over a 5+1 pump action shotgun that cost half as much, and had twice as many uses? Then you are an idiot.

    • TJbrena

      “Including the design I played a small role in developing”
      Sounds like storytime.

      • Matthew Groom

        I’m not going to say which one it is, but I will just say that basing the design on the Ithaca Model 37 was my idea, and putting plastic rail on the forend was something I vocally resisted. “If you make that rail out of plastic, and you remove the slide-fire feature, people are going to blow their hands off when they attach pistol grips which inevitably come off.”

  • JustAHologram

    I still trust buckshot more a rifle for close range

    • AK

      That’s based on feeling, not facts. What if you miss your first shot? With an AR or AK you can rapidly adjust your lead and keep firing, 12ga recoil will take a while longer to recover, especially with a pump action. Hit probability will definitely be in the favor of AR or AK, as is advantage in ammo capacity (for multiple attacker scenarios).

      • junyo

        Considering shotgunners fairly regularly practice with shooting multiple moving targets the inability to address targets quickly with a shotgun is a shooter issue, not a gun issue.

        • AK

          If you can connect with a shotgun in HD scenario, you can connect better with an AR or AK. That’s the point.

          • The_Champ

            I know we are all hopefully well past the myth that “you can’t miss” with buckshot because of the spread, but I would say there is still some logic in using a specialized close range round like #4 Buck Shot, in a specialized situation(like home defense).

            I now this is strictly anecdotal, but years ago two police officers in my area got in a gun fight with a perp at a traffic stop. One officer emptied his glock, the other pumped off the 4 rounds of #4 Buck shot that came with the cruiser ready shotgun. At the end of the barrage of fire the perp was stone cold dead, having been missed by every pistol bullet and almost every buckshot round except one or two, including one to the head.

            Likewise, I believe the infamous clock tower shooter in Texas was killed in similar circumstances.

            The point being I can see a distinct advantage, in special circumstances, to sending out that wall of lead.

          • AK

            Never extrapolate anecdotal evidence to make a generalization. Considering that an experienced shooter will squeeze off at least double the amount of rounds from a semi-auto carbine than a pump shotgun in the same time, the cop would have gotten about 8 rounds off from an AR. Recoil between shots is much less, so the follow-up shots would have been more accurate. Let’s assume the engagement range was 30 ft, which would equate to about a 10 inch spread of the buckshot, so the error in aim was about 5 inches at most, and you get double the amount of shots with less recoil. I would argue the rifle will give you a higher statistical chance to make a hit, and that hit will be more lethal, so shot placement will be slightly less critical. Rifle will also give you more shots for time the target is exposed (very important!), as well as better penetration of cover, longer range, etc. And by the time your cruiser shotgun is empty, your rifle will still have at least 10 rounds remaining and reloading will be much faster as well. Shotguns will be used for beanbags, etc. but the carbine will be the police cruiser “bigger tool” of choice.

          • The_Champ

            Well I’m not really picking sides, and I think I’d agree when it comes to policing, a rifle might be the better choice, just putting out some food for thought; two situations I know of where one shooter emptied every bullet out of a single projectile weapon with zero hits while the shooter next to them had more luck with multiple projectiles.

          • junyo

            If I can connect with either, why would I want to send 1 projectile in the direction of something I’m trying to stop instead of 9?

          • AK

            First, you can send at least 2 or 3 bullets for each series of 9 buckshot. Second, rifle bullets will defeat soft armor. Third, you can adjust your aim in between your 2-3 rounds. Fourth, they will defeat more types of potential cover. Fifth, terminal ballistics are superior. Sixth, recoil is much less, making the weapon system more suitable for use by women and minors, as well as inexperienced shooters.

          • The_Champ

            All fair points.

            I would add that for many concerned with home defense, more penetration of cover might not be a positive.

            I would also argue against the terminal ballistics of .223 being superior to certain 12 guage loads in certain circumstances.

            Again just my two cents.

          • AK

            A tool exists to make doing a job more effective. Penetration of cover will add to your available options to engage. If a round will penetrate a bad guy, it will penetrate most American houses, period. You should not engage even with a 22lr if you are not sure of your backstop.
            It is true, 12 gauge will have about 2 times the energy of an AR or AK round, so 00 buck will dump more energy in the target, but only if more than half the pellets hit. With a rifle you may get hydrostatic shock, which is an instant incapacitator. I like shotguns, but as a general tool, a carbine will be better. Shotguns will always be on hand with police as niche weapons, such as breaching, less lethal, etc. Just as revolvers are still around as niche police weapons, mainly in ballistic shield entry work.

      • JustAHologram

        And that is based on feeling as well, if you cycle as you feel recoil you get back in target with no issues not as fast as semi-auto but more than adequate

  • MrBrassporkchop

    I think their size is a turnoff for people if they admit it or not. Stuck with an 18 inch barrel unless you get creative or go sbs. And some of those new exotic ones that came out are pretty chunky.

  • Cal S.

    I think that the innovation for shotguns really lies in ammunition for them. Look at that Mexican ammo maker, Aguila, which is doubling capacity with their shorter shells. But yes, with my ARs and PCCs, it’s really tough to justify buying a shotgun.

    Unless I just want one, which is a valid reason alone.

    • AK

      Those short shells won’t run reliably in a lof of guns…which is the #1 criteria of any defensive firearm.

      • Cal S.

        They seem to run well enough in 870s and 500s. Just make sure you know what your weapon will do.

        • AK

          I’ll rather have my AK, thanks. I trust it even more…

          • Cal S.

            Well… that’s just like, your opinion, man.

  • adverse4

    In this case, and many others, “experts” can go poke the pooch.

  • Twilight sparkle

    The number 1 gun I’ve been selling has been the 18.5″ maverick 88. Shotguns are still a viable and cost effective means of home defense.

    • Paul White

      honestly, that thing is on my list as a project gun. goes on sale for like 170 or 180, has an OK reputation (works but rough)…I may buy one just to experiment with making a frankengun

      • Twilight sparkle

        i’m a bit ambidextrous (or as my coworkers say I go both ways) so the only real reason I bought a 500 over an 88 was because of the safety, other than that there doesn’t seem to be a huge quality difference between the two and I kinda feel like the 500 is a bit over priced.

        • Gary Kirk

          Not real sure about the newer 88s, but the older ones were single action bar. As opposed to the 500, which is dual..

          • Paul White

            I’m not huge into shotguns–just have my one 20 gauge pump. What’s the difference between dual and single bar?

          • Gary Kirk

            Dual supposedly gives more support to the bolt, for less potential binding during operation, and a smoother racking

          • Twilight sparkle

            When mossberg took over they made it use dual action bars to simplify the parts, or at least it’s been like that a few years now.

          • Gary Kirk

            I have an old 88, back when they were made in Texas, not Mexico..
            Single action bar and all, however the bolt and carrier are the same as my 500. Thought they were always made by mossie?

  • TDog

    What’s jumped the shark are click-bait op-eds like this.

  • Don Ward

    Piling on here, but it is absolutely specious to conflate idiotic range toys like those tacti tard bullpup shotguns pictured above with serious, practical shotgun designs like Remington, Mossberg and Ithacca pump actions.

    Again. Just because the author doesn’t like or has little experience with a piece of hardware doesn’t mean it is obsolete.

  • Matt Collins

    Anyone who thinks that a 12ga shotgun is irrelevant in home defense, (given its affordability, ease of target-contact and lethal stopping power) is either an idiot, or just trying to gin up lots and lots of angry comment traffic on their blog post.

    • Paul White

      the latter, I’m sure. I’m biting because we’re a skeleton crew at the office (but we have to have a physical presence and I’m it) so I’m bored.

  • Fuddly

    I was almost able to pretend that Patrick had made an actual argument until he mentioned the Serbu Super Shorty, which effectively sacrifices almost everything about a defensive shotgun to make a keychain accessory.

    Even considering the Serbu as more than a novelty tells me that Patrick has failed to realize the shotgun, particularly the often recommended pump actions, as the easy to use, relatively controllable, and still effectively lethal platform that it is. A castrated tube, no buttstock, less handy firearm like the Serbu is a gimmick for mall ninjas.

    As for the DP-12, you are looking at very specific response to a market trend. Bullpup shotguns like the KSG are successful, but spent many years with feeding issues due to the shell needing to move both vertically into the chamber, like a normal shotgun, and horizontally from the offset magazine tube. The DP-12 solves this problem by eliminating the offset and just having one barrel above each tube. Mechanically, it is more or less two BPSs machined into one receiver.

  • Blake Allen

    Saying the shotgun is no longer viable is one of the most retarded things I have ever heard of from TFB. I shouldn’t even have to list the reasons why a shotgun is the #1 self/home defense firearm. But since certain people cannot understand, I will list some.

    1) cost effective to buy
    2) a pump or other good gun will allow you to practice with cheap sporting ammo
    3) shotguns have the potential to be one shot stoppers
    4) from experience, just racking the slide sent the intruder running
    5) if a 12 gauge is too much for your man-bun latte sipping ass, get a 20.
    6) all these designs that are called silly by the writer are in fact not. They are innovative.
    7) just because it isn’t an AR doesn’t make it invalid for self/home defense.

  • Joshua Knott

    Sorry I’m going to say it, this is just absurd. Patrick, I get it, you believe in nothing but the holy grail that is the AR15. Common misperceptions
    A defense shotgun is going to hindrance movement. Wrong, when properly holding a pistol out reached for aimed shooting,both are about the same arm length reach, same goes for a carbine.
    Over penetration, liability to property or life of others. Wrong, ballistic gel only tells a portion of the story, buckshot, #4 and similar high powered loads can over penetrate but are less likely to than your “go to” round of xm193.
    Where does one live?

    The country, alas a rifle does fine wonders for distance and up close ,but it’s nice to hit the fox that’s been stealing your hens when he’s at full speed.

    The city…lots of houses and neighbors ,your distances are going to be small,the likely hood of engagements past 50 yards are very very small. Handgun, shotgun.
    You live in an apartment complex, what kind of barrier will you face, is your home made of brick, or wood. Ooda loop or gtfoh
    It’s your home, you should know the surroundings and make the logical decision based upon those findings.
    Not ar15 or gtfoh,while they have their purpose , that purpose doesn’t always fill the need.

  • tom

    Entry work is not remotely the same as HD. They may appear the same because both have bad guy, room and gun, but no, sorry. Are we talking about fantasy HD?

    To really discuss HD weapons, we should really understand what we know historically to happen. Based on what we know, would an AR have performed better in the situations where a shotty was used?

    Jumping the shark is a different discussion and I don’t think the shotgun world is doing that anymore than the AR.

  • aka_mythos

    Shotguns are like revolvers, they’re technological hold overs; still around because of familiarity and institutional inertia. There are some people who simply don’t want a weapon that so closely resembles a military service weapon.

    That said, I foresee in the future a move back towards shot-gun like weapons in military use. As the Army and DARPA research things like guided bullets and munition approaches to that ammunition… both require features more akin to shotguns than rifles… where guided projectiles easily work out of smooth bores and safety milspecs promote some of the unorthodox feed mechanisms we see on shotguns.

    • JustAHologram

      How is the shotgun outdated in design? Especially considering the wide array of designs that are available for 12ga semi-auto

      • aka_mythos

        I didn’t say shotguns were outdated.

        I actually go on to discuss how I think many of the innovations made more recently will likely adapt shotguns or things similar to them.

        I think if any part of a shotgun is outdated it is the shell.

  • Jason Wimbiscus

    I can see the author’s point in strictly defensive sense, but a shotgun is hard to beat in terms of an affordable do all firearm.

    If I had a rural home and could only afford one gun after buying said rural home, my pick would be a good shotgun.

    Sometimes a leatherman tool is a better thing to have than the best screwdriver ever made.

  • Not Gersh Kuntzman

    Waiting on my Form 1 to come back.on my 870 so I can chop the barrel to 12″.

    Good enough for me as shotguns go.

  • Ark

    I think the “AR as home defense” line is more about people trying to legitimize AR ownership in the face of anti-gun rhetoric. The idea of keeping a locked and loaded AR next to the bed is utterly ridiculous to me. If I break out my AR at home, it’s because there are literal Russian paratroopers in the backyard. There are plenty of great reasons to own an AR but I don’t think middle of the night security is one of them.

    I love my shotgun. I bought it brand new for under $200 and I expect it to last the rest of my life. I can run a huge variety of loads INCLUDING less-lethal. That right there is an advantage that I don’t think gets enough attention. Loading rubber buckshot or something for that first round can be the difference between apologizing profusely to your teenage son or putting him in the ground. People mistakenly shoot their own family members all the time. Call me a bleeding heart, but I like the idea of having one do-over before the lethal rounds start flying.

    • Independent George

      In what way is an AR be ridiculous where a shotgun isn’t? It’s shorter, lighter, can be suppressed, and a .223 loses a lot more energy when hitting drywall than 00.

      I agree with you on the advantage of loading a beanbag for the first round; I just think you’re overstating your case against the utility of the AR platform.

    • Mark Brockway

      How about those of us that live alone? I prefer to kill the criminal. Also, keep in mind most home invasions involve 2 – 4 armed attackers so your decision to use a non lethal method could be your demise.

    • RealitiCzech

      The do-over is called ‘target discrimination.’ Don’t shoot until you know what you’re shooting is hostile. Get a light for your gun, or at least turn the lights on in the room. Guns are very dangerous tools, you better make damn sure you’re not blasting your kid or his girlfriend before pulling the trigger, not trusting rubber buckshot to be totally harmless.

      • Ark

        Oh, it’s far from harmless, and certainly doesn’t give you a license to shoot first and ask questions later.

  • Malthrak

    Was there a point other than “these cherry picked shotguns look stupid” and “ARs have lots of options”? Lets not forget there are also tons of stupid looking and impractical AR’s out there too.

    Whats your case that shotguns are poor home defense weapons? You dont lay this out anywhere, and I’d posit that, for most people, with no/minimal training in a high stress and potential surprise setting, if they need an AR where a shotgun just wont do, theyre probably screwed anyway with that kind of a threat. Even if we accept that, that doesnt make them irrelevant or having jumped the shark, home defense is only one role, and they still have obvious hunting, sporting, and less lethal purposes as you point out.

    • CommonSense23

      For use under stress for your average gun owner, the AR wins hands down. Shotguns are a lot easier to screw up under stress.

      • Malthrak

        I guess that would depend on the type of shotgun (pump vs over-under vs semiauto etc) and what condition the guns were kept it (chambered with loaded mag, cleared and locked up, etc). I can maybe see issues with shortstroking and loading an empty tube with some people and pumps maybe, but something like a Vepr12 or Benelli M2 or another semiauto shotgun shouldnt be any harder to deal with than an AR.

  • Test Bacon

    “As for why I feel they have jumped the shark? With the bulk of defensive style shotguns I have seen spoken about recently being scatterguns like the Keltec KSG, DP-12, UTAS-15, and other stupid shotguns, it seems that designs are circling the toilet bowl.”

    I am confused. The DP-12 is a double barreled toy, like the Gilboa Snake AR-15 and the Arsenal Double barreled 1911. The Keltec KSG and UTAS are both bull-pups and attempt to address the issues of high-capacity when using shotshells. So are ARs “circling the toilet bowl” because there are purely range-toy designs, golfball launchers, and coffin mags? Are handguns swirling in porcelain too?

    Pump action shotguns have a much lower cost to play then any AR and generally are very reliable unlike some low budget ARs.

    During the ’08 ammo scare I couldn’t find any 5.56, 7.62 (any flavor), or even 9mm (any flavor) on store shelves; many online shops were out of stock or charging what the market would bare (read: insane) price wise. I could find 12ga bird, buck, and slugs just fine though. If need be I can spend ~$25, buy a slug mold and cast my own slugs over a fire.

    While most “tactical” shotguns aren’t really set up for it, most pumps can be used for hunting, sport, AND defense with a simple barrel change. They also have a simple manual of arms and are easy for most laymen to figure out mechanic’s wise.

    If shotguns have jumped the shark its only after MSR’s and Handguns have. Like it or not budget, philosophical inertia, and market legacy mean shotguns aren’t going away. Since they still send large amounts of lead downrange very quickly the also are going to continue to be used for defense by people who cant access, afford, or simply do not like MSRs.

    Thus, in closing, your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.

  • When will that very, very sexy six12 shotgun be released?

  • BrandonAKsALot

    I’ve been in the same frame of mind pretty much since I got into firearms. Shotguns are cool, but very impractical these days. I got a pump because it was a crazy good deal, but I sincerely hate it and it never sees daylight. It’s just there. I do have a Vepr 12 which is the only shotgun I was ever excited about and I love it just for fun/cool factor. It’s an absolute blast to shoot and would be fun in a competition, but I have better options for HD. My little AKS-74u with a 45 round mag is much more useful.

    • iksnilol

      Only reason I am getting a shotgun is because the ammo is cheap.

      Slightly more expensive than match .22 LR.

  • MIKE

    WHEN CLEARING ROOMS OF BAD GUYS, HOW MANY SMALL CALIBER ROUNDS DO TIER ONE OPERATORS DUMP ON AVERAGE INTO THE TYPICAL TERRORIST’S BODY WITHIN CQB DISTANCE? MORE THAN WHAT YOU THINK. 5.56 OUT OF SHORT 16 INCH BARRELS IS JUST NOT EFFECTIVE. SHOTGUNS ARE EFFECTIVE AT SHORT RANGE WITH SHORT 18 INCH BARRELS. WHEN YOU EMPLOY A WEAPON THAT RELIES UPON VELOCITY FOR TERMINAL EFFECT, THEN REDUCE THE VELOCITY OF ITS AMMUNIYION BY SHORTENING THE WEAPON’S BARREL, YOU REDUCE THE WEAPON SYSTEM’S EFFECTIVENESS. DUH.

    • VanDiemensLand

      Omg calm the f@#$ down and stop yelling.

  • Anon

    “Shotguns have jumped the shark because companies are taking interest in them and trying new and unique designs instead of the basic tube mag pump in wood or camo”
    ARs have jumped the shark, shotguns are still getting poked at. And frankly, complaining of something unique like a revolver shotgun with a gas seal that can be suppressed just reeks of a fudd who thinks jumping the shark means experimenting with things.

  • Hellbilly

    I love shotguns. I also love ARs. The gun cabinet in the master bedroom contains both a home-defense dedicated shotgun and a home-defense dedicated AR. They each have their positives and negatives in different situations. They are both just different tools on the tool belt.

  • Grump

    Wow. Who’d a thunk that such a ridiculous rant obviously designed to provoke easily manipulated people into commenting would work so well?

    • VanDiemensLand

      I’m here for the comment section anyway, at least this gets it going mwahah ๐Ÿ˜€

  • marathag

    Below that is a Crye SIX12 with wood stocks. While cool, what benefit does something like that give the shooter?

    Oh, something for the guys who hate polymer, maybe?

    • iksnilol

      Or for somebody in cold areas. Wood retains heat better in the cold.

  • Tassiebush

    I’d love to see a home defence simulation with a few contemporary platforms compared to get some stats. I know that back during the Malayan emergency the British infantry trials found shotguns had the best first round hit probability of anything and in their context that meant close range fast surprise encounters. I think home defence is similar and first round hits are optimal and I suspect that better first shot hit probability would still be the case using a traditional pump, semi or double shotgun but I also suspect recent developments like dp12 etc are probably worse. Of course things have changed heaps since then. Different rifles are now in use and the AR15 and red dots and whatnot probably have better handling than the rifles and carbines the British compared. The gap must be different. Clearly on follow up shots AR15 carbines are faster than a shotgun and mag capacity is many times and range is better. Another consideration is body armour. In some places that’d be a factor to take into account.
    A few other thoughts are that a shotgun needs to be shotgun like to have the benefits of one. It should use buckshot and not slugs or else it’s just a slow to shoot rifle
    If defensive use includes outdoors then carbines probably have it.
    Shotguns by virtue of their pattern can be used to create a beaten zone in a controlled area like a hall or doorway which may be better for hitting some in the face as they take a quick peek.
    Another question is how each performs in the dark.
    I’m not very invested in either side though.

  • John

    1. Shotguns are socially and culturally acceptable firearms even today. In the United States, shotguns evoke an image of the Wild West and a certain way of life. An AR-15, on the other hand, is a rifle built for the military. Shotguns don’t make people as nervous. This comes into play if you want to use one or the other for hunting, target practice and ESPECIALLY defense.

    2. Ammunition for a 12-gauge shotgun can be found virtually anywhere, easily obtained and is often rock-steady in price. Ammunition for a .223 rifle, on the other hand, can run out, is subject to stock limits and can cost a lot, especially during gun panics. And that’s assuming you don’t want, and your gun can’t handle, 5.56 NATO ammo.

    There’s two reasons why shotguns aren’t outdated.

  • Tierlieb

    Auto shotguns, especially those with box magazines? You might be right, that puts you on the path to building an automatic rifle, only worse.

    Pump- or lever actions with their variety of ammo on the other hand can be neat in a few situations. Like snubby revolvers, they are weapons in that you need to really know your gun handling and the gun’s limitations. Too much time for my taste, but ymmv.

    Tom Givens considers a shotgun with 4+1 rounds of buckshot a “five bad guy gun”, something he does not say about pistols. And considering he is /the/ self-defense pistol guy, that should amount to something.

  • Jim Drickamer

    Good article. But I still plan on buying a shotgun. I can see the advantage of having one firearm that can handle everything from slugs to birdshot.

  • Cody

    well this is the most butt-hurt op-ed I have seen from TFB in a long time.

    Not sure what happened, but it really seems like some shotgun hurt Patrick’s feelings and he needed to throw a tantrum or lash out in some way.

    pretty much everything he takes issue with can clearly be applied to the rest of the gun market with super flashy pistols and rifles with crazy hydro dips & paints, double barreled 1911s (Arsenal 2011), double ARs (Gilboa), Bullpup rifles galore and even ‘bullpup’ pistols (Boberg) not to mention all the AR Pistols and AK Pistols that bloomed into everyone’s collections over the last year. Don’t forget the SKS and Mosign Bullpup kits.

    What I mean to say is: any sharks Shotguns have made their way over, Rifles and Pistols have as well.

  • Tassiebush

    Man that’s the Fonz just like I remember him!

  • Blatant Hypocrisy

    I think it’s safe to say that Joe Biden jumped the shark.

  • iksnilol

    How is a shotgun with minimum length barrel(s) unwieldy?

    • Paul White

      also…..how common is short stroking really? I’ve only got one shotgun, a cheapie 20 gauge pump, and I’ve run a couple hundred rounds through it so I’m not some uber shotgunner, but I’ve never short stroked

      • Phil Brown

        If you do not practice enough to develop the muscle memory, short-stroking under stress is easier than you’d think. Cramped conditions exacerbate the problem.

  • Dr. Longfellow Buchenrad

    My first gun was a single shot H&R 12ga and I grin every time I shoot it, but I have yet to buy another shotgun and dont feel the urgent need to any time soon. I cant concealed carry a shotgun, Id rather have a handgun inside my house, and Id rather have a rifle outside.

  • John Bear Ross

    I want a factory 12 Gauge From Hell offering, as well as factory ammo.
    Best,
    JBR

  • Martin frank

    Making a lot of assumptions there Bernie. I didn’t see mention of any race or calling of black people names. Typical SJW hill-o-crit. Make up your own truth in your head and then lash out on people based on stuff you made up in your head therefore they are not even aware what your chimping out about. Need help packing for canada?

    • Robert B. Stanford

      ‘Dindus’ is a derogatory term for black people, implying that they’re always guilty of crimes, but claim they ‘dindu nuffin’. So perhaps Alex does not understand the association, but in my experience that’s how the term gets used. Really not trying to be a SJW, but the fact that he associated clay pigeons with the Black Lives Matter movement makes me think that he is somehow trying to bring race into a topic that has nothing to do with it.

    • carlcasino

      How come all the dissenters want to go to Canada? What’s wrong with Mexico? Racist?

    • Baggy270

      We don’t want him and I’ve never heard the term….sure easy to offend these days geeze.

  • Bierstadt54

    Technology development has favored small-bore rifles and handguns. That being said, I still prefer a shotgun, if nothing else because I have so much more experience with shotguns. Defense guns need to be something you are comfortable with. I agree that most of the “defense” shotguns seem pretty dumb. I’d try a mag-fed shotgun, though.

  • LumberJaq

    Sorry but shotguns will always have a place in home defense. Yes some of the designs for modern-tactical-anti pirate/zombie/whatever are silly and expensive but it’s just another option.

    Several months ago my neighbors kids came banging on my door in the middle of the night because Burglars were in their garage. I grabbed the first piece I could find and went to greet them. It was a glock 23 along with a very bright flashlight. No shots fired, burglars ran off things worked out. Had a crye precision uber shotgun been next to my bed, well it would have accompanied me.

  • Ryfyle

    Still gonna get one. Maybe one day we will have semi-auto, bullpup Shotguns. Shotguns seem to soaking up all sorts of nifty gimmicks.

  • 22winmag

    Is this op-ed available in a 2-ply flushable version?

    There is nothing new under the sun. Shotguns are now and have always been utility weapons and specialty weapons wrapped into one.

  • survivor50

    Soooo…I guess my 40mm Street Sweeper Multi Barrel Shotgun with the Flame Paint Job was a bad purchase??? ๐Ÿ™‚

  • Bill Funk

    Patrick:
    If we are talking self defense here (as opposed to being an infantryman in a firefight), shotguns have a few things actually going for them that the AK/AR doesn’t.
    Usually, self defense means inside a home. That’s where the vast majority of self defense shootings take place. How many perps are involved? One to four; very seldom do you have more than four burglars/home invaders, and the numbers run a lot closer to one than four. Given that: The shotgun is much more impressive than an AK/AR at close range. And most such encounters are within 30 feet (unless you own a 6000+ square foot home, and if you do, you probably have security people to handle these situations). When you are looking at the business end of a firearm, a .22 looks like a .45; a 12 gauge looks like a 6-pounder. The intimidation factor favors the shotgun. Five to eight rounds vs 30? Again, how many perps are you inviting to the party?
    You seem fixated on pimped out shotguns. But, in reality (and for the subject matter at hand: self defense), what, really, is an AR but a pimped out Mini 14? (I’m gonna catch a lot of flack for that one, but think about it: inside your home, what good is all that sets the AR/AK apart from a mini 14? You’re not really looking for a battle rifle, but a firearm that works well in close quarters.)
    For those who really want to get into arcane, word-parsing discussions, I have what I consider to be an extremely good argument: range time is better than any differences between platforms.

    I use a shotgun for home defense; I’m the only one in the house, exterior walls are concrete block, so over-penetration isn’t much of a concern. YMMV. I practice with my shotgun, so short-stroking isn’t a concern, either. It’s a 500 with resin furniture, and a bead sight. It holds seven rounds (I don’t keep a round in the chamber; that’s just my preference). Length isn’t a problem, even in a narrow hallway; I keep the muzzle down, which makes it easy to maneuver. Keeping the muzzle down has a distinct advantage over keeping it up: In CQB, a simple blocking maneuver by the perp keeps the muzzle pointed at the ceiling, but with the muzzle down, it can easily be fired at legs, even when being blocked. Try it sometime.

    Are some shotguns overly pimped out? Sure. But how often will a 4WD Escalade go off-road? And I’ve seen some truly over the top OTC ARs, too. The exception doesn’t define the rule.

  • Bill Funk

    The iPhone autocorrect doesn’t work well before 8am? Yet another reason to not get one. ๐Ÿ™‚

  • markrb

    Uhmmm….What about the semiautomatic shotguns based on the AR 15 platform?
    I’ve got an MKA-1919XN. I can send 11- .00 buckshot your way in about 2.5 seconds, drop the mag, pop another in, and send another 10 in a handful of seconds.
    Not to mention the variety of ammo…..slugs, buckshot, combinations, etc.

  • George Dean

    Sorry Bob, but you just don’t appreciate humor.After years of law enforcement experience, I found it fairly common to find your garden variety suspects, never to be rocket scientists, to invoke the following response, to the question, who did that: “Dose guys” or the variant “Dem dudes.” If you expected a name, they never knew anyone’s name they were involved with. And, they famously dindu nuffin. Of course I didn’t work a lot of white collar crimes.

    • carlcasino

      I think Robert had to give his participation Trophy back and is mourning. I have a Moss 500 that I’m considering have the local smith cut down and pressure laser activated dot. Question? In close quarters red or green?

      • Robert B. Stanford

        Mourning what? I have zero clue what you’re talking about.

        • carlcasino

          I would take an educated guess that you are at a minimum 1/2 my age (79) and I grew up before being Politically correct in speech was unheard of. Unless I slept for the last few years after serving in Subs for 8 years I still have 1st amendment rights thanks to the 2nd. and in my world that includes saying what I please, when I please and if it hurts your feelings- Get over it–Way too many snowflakes roaming the planet these days. I contend you are in Mourning-pick your own reason.

          • Robert B. Stanford

            Hi Carl, yes I’m 31, so you’re spot-on there. And I want to sincerely thank you for your military service, that’s really great. Still not sure why you think I’m mourning anything, I have a great job and an even better home life, so I’m doing just fine thank you. Like I said in one of my early comments, I just don’t like people using racist words on one of my favorite blog sites. If that makes me a special snowflake or whatever, fine by me.

          • carlcasino

            Using racist words? I have been called everything but a child of God and my lineage questioned by many. I have always been secure in who I am so my Dad’s advice about sticks and stones stuck. I sucked it up an grew up and learned at age 9 how to treat a Bully-both types verbal and physical. I have also followed some sage advice from some very savvy swabbies. Using the Lords name in profanity is a sign of ignorance but putting the ner do well in their place is the honorable thing to do. No holds barred. Peace be on your House.

      • George Dean

        For home defense, rather than a laser, for a shotgun, my preference is a set of fiber optic sights. Green for rear & red up front, I own several lasers, but in my experience, unless you have a full powered military laser or NV & IR with an illuminator, for hunting, save your money, I don’t have lasers on my rifles. Only red ones on a 9mm & .45ACP pistol, used for rapid aimed shots at 25 yards. Carl, for close quarters I don’t rely on sights at all, I use an old technique, lay the top end of the barrel on your silhouette target, center mass, and rip off two to the body and one to the head.

        I don’t pretend to teach anything unless I’m at the range, one on one. And then all I can impart is what I’ve either been taught or learned over the years. YMMV

        • carlcasino

          My B/R is only 13X15 and the question about red or green is my lack of experience with lasers. I have a XD9 with red laser and at 25 to 30 yrds in daylight it helps these old eyes quickly acquire target. I have been led to believe that in a dark environment the red is more easily traced to the source than Green. If I had the money I would buy both and experiment. The Moss in legal short barrel using 00 buck at 10 foot seems ideal for getting attention quickly. If my Bride puts her Judge into the equation I will just lay back down and wait on the coroner. 15 years my junior and 10X better shot. After I took her to the river 25 years ago to practice with my new Taurus (9mm) the answer is always Yes Dear.

          • George Dean

            Just go with the red. Indoors, especially up close, it will serve you well and avoid the extra cost of a green one.

    • Robert B. Stanford

      Hi George, so you’re saying that dindus was used by you and you’re law enforcement buddies to describe any old criminal who claimed they ‘dindu nuffin’? Funny, I thought it was a relatively new term coined on the Internet to refer to black people. I just don’t care for thinly veiled racism and politics on a site that’s supposed to be about our passion/enjoyment of firearms.

      • George Dean

        Bob, if one parses every comment one may suspect racism in every conversation. That’s generally known as ‘having a chip in one’s shoulder.’ Guaranteed to be a conversation stopper and can result on one’s being stricken from the dinner party invitation list.

        Many descriptors are developed in all trades over time as short hand for the usual suspects. Be it office politics, the med field, et al. Cops are especially prone to this. Mutts, mopes, rats usually are applied to petty or career criminals who are too stupid to engage in a successful criminal enterprise, are always getting caught, usually because they are not bright enough to keep their mouths shut.

        They come in all shapes, sizes and races, are usually poorly educated and are proud of it. Sometimes they will have a special speech pattern that becomes routine when speaking to them. That can become a tag which readily identifies them to persons whom engage with them professionally. And yes, idiots who routinely engage in self destructive behavior are fun to laugh at.

        • Robert B. Stanford

          Calling someone a mutt, mope, or rat is not the same as using slang that is derogatory to a person’s race or nationality. Not sure why you think I have a chip on my shoulder, I hardly ever bother to comment on threads like this, I just don’t like seeing someone using a word like that on one of my favorite blog sites and I called him out on it. But if you insist on continuing to defend veiled racism, then by all means.

          • Dindu yo momma – o yez I didz!

            FOAD, over-privileged white social justice warrior.

          • Robert B. Stanford

            Hah, well you’re probably right about the over-privileged part. Still don’t understand why calling out a racial epithet gets me labeled a SJW. Sorry I got you so upset, but thanks to you and these other sensitive babies I’m learning a lot of fun new acronyms!

  • Aries144

    I used to feel much the same way: Shotguns were for birds and snakes or for the person who needed a cheap do-all. However, the ammo crisis of 2013 changed my mind since the only ammunition available anywhere for months was 12ga birdshot and the occasional box of slugs. If the only ammo I could get were shotgun shells, I wanted something to launch them that functioned as much like a modern rifle as possible. I investigated and bought a Vepr 12 and found it was as fast and fumble-proof as an AR15. In fact, the only reason tube guns are still used for 3gun in the US is because of arbitrary rules and stage design that still specifically favor them, like alternating targets that absolutely must NOT be hit with slugs (a game-specific limitation) with distant targets that must be hit with slugs.

    I think a lot of the minds thinking up these new shotguns, or shotgun products, are more focused purely on “making a better shotgun” rather than imagining they’ll be competitive with a modern rifle.

    What’s really bothering you are the slimy gunshop salesmen pushing all kinds of goofy urban legends to move product out the door, which I agree is very annoying.

  • The Concerned Conservative

    Gimme a short barrel shotgun with a 10-round mag and a Pic rail for a light. I don’t care if it is in snakeskin fugly or FDE…as long as it “go [sic] boom – boom – boom – boom – boom – boom – boom – boom – boom – boom – boom.” (One in the chamber and 10 in the mag.)
    I call buIIshรญt on only appreciating a “real” shotgun – a manual pumper. Shades of 1947, dood.

  • love_sick_liberal

    A little early for a April Fool’s troll piece, Patrick. Nothing will top the shotgun as a last ditch defensive weapon, especially in a home defense situation where the home owner is entrenched. Also laughable is all these “what if” scenarios people come up with such as what if you short stroke the action, what if you aim in the general direction and miss, what if you have the wrong ammo……All can be overcome with training, if the person can’t or won’t train with one weapon, then they’re going to have problems with any firearm.

  • Capn_Stefano

    Certainly not my opinion. My go to weapon for 30 years has been a 6 shot Mossberg 500 with side folder and a tritium bead. Why? Because recoil does nit bother e at all, and because 12 GA 00 buck makes bad bipeds fall down. Lots of true stories of perps hit with 5.56 or pistol rounds and still fighting. Show me those who took a center mass 00 load and kept fighting

    Nothing is more effective, nothing is a better close range defenders gun. At 10 yards or less with my FN SLP MK 1, I can drop 8 or 9 bad guys in seconds, very unlikely to shoot twice. In that regard, nothing has changed since the OK corral, except that optics, shotguns and loads have gotten better

    • The Capn

      Should have said my home defense go-to weapon

    • Mazryonh

      If the importation wasn’t a problem and you didn’t mind sticking with 2.75 inch shells in 12-gauge, you could try the Franchi SPAS-15. It loads from a detachable box magazine (6 to 10 rounds) and can fire semi-automatically or with the pump action.

  • zaqzilla

    The article is poorly written. Weapons with a nod to the aesthetic have been around since the invention of weapons. Just look at the medieval and renaissance weapons with elaborate engravings. Even early Colts famously had scenes engraved on their cylinders. The simple fact that some people appreciate an aesthetic flare on their weapon doesn’t mean the weapon has lost relevance.

    Secondly the article claims “there have not been many functional advances in shotguns” without really explaining what he means. Just look at the KSG that he calls stupid later in the article, again without giving reasons why it’s stupid. The KSG has a higher round count then its competitors with a shorter overall package. So I have more rounds in a more easily maneuvered weapon with similar ballistics to the old standbys like the 870 or 500. Sounds like a pretty big functional advance. If the author had an argument against a shorter profile shotgun with more rounds he certainly doesn’t make it in the article.

  • Tp

    Bad example, movie guns never run out of ammo, they don’t even have to pick up ammo packs or hit R for reload๐Ÿ”ซ

  • Frank

    You know damned well that the problem with the shotgun is the fact that the cartridge is ancient, and the only thing that has been changed over the years is the fact that it uses plastic now.

    Worst part is, any attempt of modernizing it, for example like the AR-12 tried to do, is met with an almost unanimously response of “Yeah, well, it’s not the 12 gauge that already exists, so I’m not buying it”, and then it obviously flops.

    But to answer your question, it’s like saying rifles jumped the shark when polymer furniture showed up. No, it’s just a new fad, it’s either gonna blow over, or be refined.

    • Mazryonh

      There was the polymer-jacketed RAS-12 shotgun round made by the now-defunct Intrepid Tactical Systems that was rimless and could fit and feed well in a standard AR-10 lower. This blog reviewed a prototype, but the weapon flopped. The RAS-12 could well have been the advancement that shotgunners needed.

  • Hillary Lost, get used to it

    No one cares that your head is so far up your ass that you refuse to recognize that the MAJORITY of violent criminals in the US belong to an ethnic group that makes up a mere 13% of the population.

    • Robert B. Stanford

      When did I refuse to acknowledge that? While we’re quoting statistics, how about the one where the average black household has less than 10% the wealth of the average white household? Maybe being poor and not getting the same privileges as white people has a little bit to do with all that crime?

      • Dr. James Russell, PhD

        You demean poor people as a whole by associating criminality with poverty.

        • Robert B. Stanford

          So then why do government figures show a higher rate of crime and victimization for members of poor households? You’re saying there’s zero connection between the two?

          • Dr. James Russell, PhD

            There’s a higher correlation between race and crime than poverty and crime. Poor whites have lower rates of violent crime than above average income blacks. You can refer to the FBI Uniform Crime Statistics if you don’t believe me.

          • Robert B. Stanford

            Well, I would have to spend more time reviewing their stats, there’s a ton of data on the FBI website, but the Bureau of Justice Statistics says otherwise based on data collected from 2008-2012: ‘Poor Hispanics (25.3 per 1,000) had lower rates of violence compared to
            poor whites (46.4 per 1,000) and poor blacks (43.4 per 1,000).’

          • Dr. James Russell, PhD

            Hispanic is not considered a race, it’s an ethnic group separate from race in BJS stats. I don’t know where you’re getting your info

  • Mazryonh

    I’m not sure that funky finishes are unique to shotguns like the DP12. Nor is non-standard wood furniture on “futuristic” firearms like the Crye shotgun model in this blog entry. You can easily find those cosmetic features on AR-15s.

    You should at least make some analysis entries on why you think the Keltec KSG, DP-12, and UTAS-15 are stupid designs as well.