PREVIEW: The New B&T APC308

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The good people at G&R Tactical just released a few pictures and details on the yet-to-be-announced Brugger and Thommet (B&T) APC308 rifle. On initial inspection, the APC308 seems to be a mirror image of the APC556/APC223 rifle, except for the .308 chambering.

For those unfamiliar with B&T, they produce some of the nicest pistol caliber carbines and rifles currently available – with prices to match. Also of note is that B&T has begun U.S. production of their line of suppressors allowing for sales to the civilian market here in America.

B&T APC308 pre-release specifications:

  • MSRP: $2976.
  • Expected release: 1st Quarter 2017.
  • Uses PMAG’s (or equivalent).
  • 14.5 Hammer Forged (pinned).
  • Adjustable gas block
APC308

B&T @ TFB

While the news surrounding the release of the APC308 is awesome, I’m still waiting for B&T to make an announcement about a U.S. made VP9 (their integrally suppressed pistol) and the MP5SD ‘K’ sized suppressor. Both of which will have my attention and most likely my money.


It does not matter what your current weapon system is, B&T has more than 300 different types of firearms in its reference collection, so we can start the development of mounts or other accessories right away.

State of the art engineering competences enable B&T to create and produce the optimal possible tactical solutions for weapon systems. When B&T started in 1991, suppressors were the first product the company produced. Users of suppressors very often needed special optical sights on their weapons, so optical sight mounts for tactical weapons soon became a second product line.

To complement this, B&T introduced a line of Tactical Rail Handguards (TRH), thus increasing the modularity of modern firearms, adapting them to accept laser sights, night vision devices, illumination systems, brass catchers and more.

Many customers would also come to us asking for suitable weapon platforms that were not available from other manufacturers. In summer 2004 B&T started to produce its own line of complete weapons, these include:

MP9 9mm submachine gun
APR308/338 sniper rifle
GL06 40mm grenade launcher
APC9 submachine gun
APC556/APC300 police carbine
APC223 sporting rifle
VP9 veterinarian pistol
SPR300 urban sniping rifle
As different as these weapons are, they all have something in common; these weapons are genuinely modular, offering many interfaces to accept all accessories that your missions may require.

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Brugger & Thommet – https://www.bt-ag.ch/

B&T (USA)
4532 W. Kennedy Blvd.
Suite #111
33609 Tampa, FL
(813) 653-1200

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G&R Tactical – https://www.gandrtactical.com

sales@grtactical.com
(330) 878-8048
1315 N Wooster Ave STE B
Strasburg, Ohio 44680



Pete

LE – Science – OSINT.
On a mission to make all of my guns as quiet as possible.
Pete.M@staff.thefirearmblog.com


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  • thedonn007

    It looks like a similar construction to their 9 mm carbines as well.

  • Vitor Roma

    It looks sleek, at first glance I thought it was a 5.56 gun.

  • Minuteman

    14.5″ 308 barrel? What were they thinking?

    • JSmath

      They make and sell appropriately beefy suppressors for it. Not to say anything about their prices.

      • Minuteman

        I know, but still… Nothing under 20″ in 308. That is the rule of thumb.

        • iksnilol

          Eh, 18 inches works just fine. 16 as well if you can live with added flash.

          14.5 with pinned flash hider makes sense. Probably horrendous blast but doesn’t seem like a big issue.

          • Minuteman

            Technically yes, it does. Ballistically it’s far from ideal though as you lose lots of velocity, which is the whole point of 308. It needs a long enoughbarrel to pick up and maintain trajectory long enough. Cut down on the barrel and it will drop pretty fast. There’s a reason why no proper battle rifle is under 20″. Anything shorter is detrimental to the entire purpose of as well as design thought behind the 308 round because it was never meant to be used with short and mid length barrels. I am religiously opposed to anything shorter than 20″ for 308 (and anything less than 16″ for .223/5.56 for that matter). You want a 30 cal round out of a shorter barrel? Get an AK.

          • Dracon1201

            Not exactly, it still carries more muzzle energy in shorter barrels (to a point) than 7.62×39. No, they are not the same thing. An 18″ barrel is a great compromise, providing most of the energy from the 20″. The thing is that a 20″ barrel may be great for bolt guns and the like, but is simply unnecessarily long for either suppressed use, vehicle use, or moving in any somewhat urban area, which is honestly what this particular rifle excels at. While velocity increases the range and damage of the rifle, it’s a big trade off, and this rifle definitely benefits from it.

          • Minuteman

            Still, it’s inefficient form a cost vs output point of view. If you start cutting down on a 308 rifle you might as well just get an AK. It will do the same job for less buck. 308 is a distance cartridge and should be used for that application. Not for close/mid range shooting and manouevre tactics. If you study the deployment tactics of DMRs you’ll understand what I’m going to. The DMMs job basically is to lead-in the manouevre element by taking out priority aka the most dangerous and cognitive domain opposing force targets (MG nests, CSW personnel, signals, officers etc) and operate in orchestrated conjunction with lower level subaltern heavy weapons (which are always your core element and mainstay effort, look at the German Army in WW2, they understood this perfectly well)

          • Dracon1201

            As I said, no, the .308 still holds more energy out of short barrels than X39, with rounds that have a better BC. Distance is relative to the engagement zone, and .308 complicates armor situations, those are reason enough. Even for a DMR, 20″ is long when you have an 8-10 in suppressor on it. If I’m not in the Middle East, and around here, I’m not fighting in a field, I’m fighting around obstacles and cover. My DMR will be different to fit my needs. 14.5″ barrel, cutting off 5.5″ is a pretty big gain with a silencer on it.

          • Minuteman

            I don’t disagree. All I’m saying is that within the parameters you described the AKM will suffice. Do we agree that the AKM is a 300m weapon (realistic, practical engagement range) and will deal with any cover within those ranges? If so -and I don’t see any reason why we shouldn’t-, then why scale up to overkill which is needlessly cost prohibitive? Unless you’re financially very well off or your employer is an agency, I don’t see any reason for using 308 within the self defense realm as a civilian. Any idea how much that stuff costs these days?? And I’m talking brass. Wouldn’t know about agencies by the way, and don’t care. I focus entirely on the consumer gun market and Average Joe and Jill-shooting. I have zero use for whatever 308 platform man… It’s just too expensive. .223 is pricey enough and .45ACP prices kinda fluctuate. 9mm and 7.62×39 prices are pretty stable across the board. I would advise anyone not to bother with anything outside these 4 calibers. Perhaps even less the 45, ’cause hollow points are hollow points. It’s all basically the same terminal effect. But hey, we all love our 1911s. Anyway, that’s just my $0.02 man. YMMV

          • Jarrad

            I think Delta would disagree with you as they ran SR-25K’s to good use 14.5 inch barrel. And optimized 130 grain 308 for it. And 16inch 308’s reach out to a grand all the time.

          • Minuteman

            I’m not the kind of guy to argue with Delta, yet again. I don’t see the rationale behind 130gr 308 when I can use a 123gr from an AK that is designed to do exactly that very same job. Established ammo logistics chain aside (which Delta doesn’t do business with in the first place because they’re not in the Army’s CoC but a seperate unit with is own shop, authorized by Congress).

          • Blue Centurion

            x39 vs. x51 is not “exactly” the same, design, job or otherwise.

          • Minuteman

            Within 300m and general purpose realm there is nothing 308 Will do that the 7.62 soviet won’t.

          • All the Raindrops

            yeah this is for longer capability and accuracy than that

          • All the Raindrops

            can your ak shoot a 130gr mk319 sost round at 3000fps?

          • 🐒👊

            Lots of work can be done with short barrels.

          • Minuteman

            So why use an overpriced round for that job? There’s nothing a good AK won’t do that a .308 setup will do within those parameters. [Economy of effort, akin to using a Hellfire or LAHAT missile instead of a Maverick, it’s darn expensive overkill]. In realistic target engagements (= <300m), if you want to shoot .30 cal utilizing a 16" barrel AND be able to penetrate cover, use an AK. It is the perfect tool for that specific task. Everything further out = MGs/mortars/DMRs/Joint Effects.

          • JSmath

            Those are you own personal metrics, though, and their customers may and apparently do have different ones.

          • Minuteman

            I just follow MIL/LE specs and SOP. 20″ is the norm for an accurate battle/DMR/Sniper Rifle if you want to maximize 308 potential. Anything under that is just a waste and extremely cost prohibitive from an investment vs output perspective. I’m a firm believer in using the right tool for the job and never understood the whole chopping down of barrels thing. Maybe within the deployment tactics realm for SOME applicatons, but most certainly not in the external ballistics realm.

          • FarmerB

            Depends on the role. My DMR rifles have 18-20″ barrels, but other ones have less.

          • Minuteman

            That’s exactly my point. An AK is perfectly capable as a .30 cal platform within those parameters. Why use an expensive 308 round for shorter range engagements? It just doesn’t make sense unless you’re a billionaire.

          • iksnilol

            Plenty of police snipers have started moving to 16 inch barrels.

            Maximizing 308 potential is silly because there isn’t a lot to begin with (at best, you’ll be having a 1000 meter gun, more realistically 800 meter gun). To maximize you’d roll with a 26 inch barrel.

          • Minuteman

            It’s not obsolete as a true sniper round, but we’re moving on to better stuff out there. Like 300 win/norma mag. That is one sick round my friend…. Are you familiar with what it’s capable of? It blows 308 AND 338 out of the water.

          • iksnilol

            300 winmag, silly round IMO (too short neck). 300 Norma mag, slightly better but still no dice. I’d rather have .338 lapua or norma.

            Honey, 308 was never truly a sniper round.

          • Minuteman

            I never said it was ‘the’ end all go-to sniper round. It is the sniper round in most common usage though. As in ‘application’ usage.

          • iksnilol

            Oh yeah, definitely in use. But not really suited to it. Is common and cheap so it’s got that going for it tho.

            It’s like all those station wagon race cars.

          • Minuteman

            …. Voila, there you have it. Cheap is what makes those in charge of purchase tick.

          • iksnilol

            Luckily I don’t got that worry so I can use 6.5×55 cheaply as well 😀

          • Minuteman

            😀

          • FarmerB

            I run ’em all, and the 300 Win Mag just isn’t worth dealing with for the extra it delivers. A 300 RUM maybe, but over 1000m I run a 338, since there is so much stuff out there for it.

          • Minuteman

            Try Norma Mag.

          • All the Raindrops

            you are super high

          • iksnilol

            Ummm, both the G3 and FAL have sub 18 ibch barrels (17.7 and 17.2, respectively). And these arent shorty commando versions.

            I’d dare say those two are “proper” “battle rifles”

          • Minuteman

            Typical FAL accuracy is 4 / 5 MOA. Wouldn’t know about the G3 as I never fired it, but I know its a tad bit more accurate. Maybe 3 MOA. You’re in Norway, right? Plenty of G3’s to come by in your neck of the woods I reckon.

          • iksnilol

            Hey, FAL is almost very definition of a battle rifle.

            Besides, barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy on either platform. Sight radius is the same.

            Yeah,G3s are easy to come by. G3 and Mp5, also favorites of criminals as well.

          • Minuteman

            In Norway? How come they’re easily available to those with ill intent? I thought Norway has very tough gun laws, basically restricting everything. There’s nothing like the 2nd Amendment anywhere else in the world.

          • iksnilol

            AAHAHHAAHa, poor naive ignorant Americano. For the first, Yemen has waay more liberal laws than you lot.

            For the second, Norway is pretty liberal around guns (only real hurdle is you need a “need” for each firearm).

            And thirdly, criminalos get the guns from raiding armories. Was a break in in a military armory which resulted in hundreds G3s, MP5s and pistols stolen. Was in the 90’s, guns from that “heist” are still found nowadays.

          • Minuteman

            Let me refraise: Can you CARRY legally in your country? What happens if you shoot a burglar or a robber?

            Come on, Yemen is no true nation-state, there’s hardly an organized govt or a civil society. If I go to Somalia this weekend I can get ANYthing that is on the no-go list back home… RPG, 50 cal, RPD, heck, even frag grenades. You name it. So let’s stick to our own, cvilized, Western societies, shall we? The Thirld World’s general lawlessness is a whole other ball game.

          • iksnilol

            In Yemen you can legally have fully automatic firearms, my point still stands.

            In Czechia and some other countries you can legally carry (real firearms no less). In Norway as well (if you can prove your life is threatened). So yeah, suck it.

            That and the illegal market in Yurop is way better than the one in America, + you don’t need to get involved with cartels.

          • Minuteman

            I’m not arguing that it works (because it does), what I’m aiming at is that accuracy will be effected significantly. So will drop increase rapidly. 308 is a heavy round. It needs velocity and that longer barrel to achieve and retain momentum. Cutting down on a 308 barrel is detrimental to external ballistics. And there’s no logic whatsoever behind a CQB/Entry length 308 barrel.

          • iksnilol

            No, no it won’t. Please stop regurgigating myths.

            Sure, drop will increase, but accuracy won’t be affected. You’ll only need to adjust more at distances. And considering that most 308 works best out to 800 meters makes it a non-issue.

          • Minuteman

            True…

        • Anonymoose

          G3s and ParaFALs though.

          • Minuteman

            Ok, so you’re cutting down on an already inaccurate (4 / 5 MOA) rifle, to gain what? It is beyond me. Wouldn’t know about the G3.

          • Anonymoose

            For ALL military rifles that have been beat to hell 4MOA is the lower limit of accuracy, but most civilian FALs and G3s and even SOCOM-16s and M4geries will get much better accuracy than that. The G3 has always had an 18″ barrel and those were used as DMRs (G3A3ZF and G3SG/1) until very recently, when the G28 came out. Nowadays we have quick-change barrel setups and extra uppers, so limiting yourself to either 20″ or 16″ (or 12″, etc) is no longer necessary. Also, the old Meeper FALs had quick-change barrels and different caliber conversion kits before the SCAR was even developed.

          • Minuteman

            True, a tricked out FAL/G3 that has serious money behind it will aways be better than the average grunt’s FAL/G3.

          • iksnilol

            Yeah, but run of the mill FAL or G3 will be better than 4-5 MOA. Remember, they wanted to hit people at 5-600 meters with these things.

          • Minuteman

            Yeah true, man-sized targets… Not “stellar performance”, I get your point.

          • Klaus

            I’m sorry but I can’t agree with that. I have an early Saco import 91(not a g3) thats11/2-2 moa all day,with Austrian or S. African NATO to boot.

          • Minuteman

            Like I said earlier, I wouldn’t know about the G3. Don’t have experience with that rifle.

        • Graham2

          Oh well, I’ll try again, as my comment was deleted for some reason- maybe it was because I had a link to another site where they showed the velocity of a .308 round as the barrel was shortened. 16″ is fine and I use my 16″ barrelled FAL out to 600 yards. I only give up about 200 feet per second compared t my 20″ barrelled Steyr.

          • Minuteman

            Don’t worry. It’s still there buddy.

            Fair enough, but how did it do in terms of accuracy -which alreadyis so and so on a FAL? It is an inherently inaccurate rifle from marks man ship’s perspective to begin with. The M14, for instance, is way more accurate and that old warhorse isn’t exactly match grade kit either.

    • Grant

      ATF importation laws is the reason for the 14.5″ barrel

      • Minuteman

        You sure? Cause I wouldn’t know about importation laws (I focus on the domestic market).

    • B&T offers most of their APC guns in various barrel lenghts. So chances are that you’ll have different lenghts to choose from.

  • User

    Ugly as sin…

    • Minuteman

      You really think so?? I think she’s gorgeous. I like my girls to have some flesh on the bone. The SCAR, that’s an ugly looking skinny chick!

  • RogUinta

    $3k for a non-adjustable buttstock?

    • Minuteman

      Made in Switzerland so it probably runs like a Swiss watch. Hence the price tag, regardless of the stock.

    • myndbender

      It looks like the stock is modular & could be removed & replaced with either a collapsible AR style stock or a sniper stock for longer barreled versions. Looking at B&T’s voluminous product line my money’s on several stock options to follow release.

  • Ευστάθιος Παλαιολόγος

    Could have gone with a better stock than that…
    flanker7

    • Minuteman

      I actually like that stock. It seems to be B&T’s trade mark as well given its on virtually their entire line.

  • LazyReader

    Veterinarian pistol? They have a model completely dedicated to putting down dogs and horses?

    • Jeff Smith

      I believe it’s actually a remake/modernized version of the Welrod pistol. I’m not 100% why they are marketing it as such. They do make weapons specifically for putting down injured animals, though. Ian at Forgotten Weapons has a video on one.

      • anon

        It is a modern Welrod. But it’s also marketed as a pistol for veterinarians to put down animals. The manual includes a selection of animals, and where to shoot them for a humane death.

      • iksnilol

        Why they’re marketing it as a veterinarian pistol?

        I dunno, maybe because it is quiet, uses common and cheap ammo whilst being powerful enough to put down basically any animal?

        Just because it is also suited well for OSS fantasies doesn’t mean those qualities aren’t desirable in other fields of work.

    • 🐒👊

      It’s awesome and needs to come here. Probably with just a 1/2-28 threaded barrel. Because the can uses rubber baffles. And that’s guard dogs and attack horses
      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/97288965fff117b8125753a1f96c747a0ade64b5e86bcadbab73cf6bb6a40811.jpg

      • randomswede

        It comes with two cans, one meant for “use” and one for practice.

      • UCSPanther

        Looks like the Welrod Silenced pistol of WWII fame…

    • Tassiebush

      Don’t forget all the cattle, pigs and sheep. There’s quite a lot of need really. I can’t even remember how many sick sheep or naughty rams I’ve shot over the years just as a favour to others.

  • 🐒👊

    I’m gonna coin this term now. THE BENTLEY of BATTLE RIFLES. This is very interesting.

  • Disarmed in CA

    That rifle is BLUE!

    No! That rifle is clearly BLACK!

    Let’s ask the web, shall we…?

  • anon

    Has it actually received BATFE approval? I’m not sure that the .300AAC, or 5.56mm guns have yet either. At that MSRP they are competing head to head with the SCAR 17s. Good luck.

    • Grant

      Submitted for approval. APC556 has been approved.

  • Gus Butts

    Finally, a new .308 black rifle. Hopefully it will end up being a hell of a lot less expensive than an FN SCAR-17S but extremely better built, as seen by their APC9s and APC556s. And they will likely be non-restricted in Canada with a longer barrel. This is an all around win-win-win situation.

    • Anonymoose

      I really dig the APC platform, but this likely won’t have any way to convert to smaller calibers unlike the SCAR, which was supposed to be it’s big selling point (other than the folding stock and increased reliability over AR-based .308 platforms).

  • Vhyrus

    1. If I am paying anywhere near $3000 for a 308, it’s going to have ‘FN’ stamped on it.

    2. 14.5 inch barrel for a 308? Why?!

    • Anonymoose

      You can get 10 inch barrels for the SCAR17, you know.

      • 🐒👊

        For 1/3 of the price of the gun tho.

        • Anonymoose

          Didn’t stop my friend from taking the plunge on a 13″.

          • 🐒👊

            Well if there is a .308 worth spending that kind of money for awesome. The SCAR H would be it.

    • Harry’s Holsters

      B&T is lesser known but I think the people that do know it have a higher level of respect on average than the people that know FN. FN still makes incredible guns but it’s like comparing a mercedes to an bentley.

  • Anonymoose
  • Mike C

    Only $3k? Color me surprised; I expected it to cost more than a SCAR 17S, at least $4K considering the exorbitant price of their other products…

  • GD Ajax

    Brugger and Thomet be nipping at the heels of both HK and FN Herstal with their own semi auto .308

  • Thomas Bennett

    Give that to me in a 16″ or 18″ as shown so I can swap out the muzzle break, and I am going to buy one. Maybe two.

  • JustAHologram

    How much does it weigh? Because according to the TFB article it’s little brother weighed 7.87lbs with a 12″ 5.56 barrel.

  • Sean

    Lost me at “MSRP: $2976.”

    • Harry’s Holsters

      Compared to a SCAR 17 or SR25 this is priced fairly.

  • roguetechie

    Personally I’d rather buy a new left handed k&m m17s 308 in 16 or 18 inch barrel.

    Very nice trigger, slightly longer barrel, way cheaper, American made, and aesthetically way more pleasing than this….

    I can’t believe I said and meant that just now!

  • Minuteman

    It just doesn’t make sense. Why would one use a 308 setup for CQB/Entry work in the first place? It’s a distance round!

    • iksnilol

      Because even with a 13 inch barrel you can still reach out to about 600 meters or so.

      • Minuteman

        ….. And there’s no way an AK will come remotely close to that performance…. Point taken.

  • Christopher Wallace

    For $3k, i’ll take the SCAR all day long over this heavy smishshmorshion

  • iksnilol

    Uh, in Bosnia I’d get a choice between a fine or 3 months in prison. Basically a misdemeanor. In Norway it’d be the same, only I might (biga$$ might) get 3-6 months in prison.

    I just get really annoyed by your lot that thinks that theirs is the greatest… then they proceed to spew ignorance about others.

    Honestly, I don’t actually mind the laws as is. My associates get illegal stuff for illegal purposes, and legal stuff for legal purposes. + only “serious” folks get guns, you avoid stupid people with disregard for safety and also mall ninjas who only want an AR because “that’s what SOCOM uses”.

    Again, like you said yourself: No sane person mounts a M240 on their Ford. Nobody sane goes hunting moose with a full auto AK either. Sure, I’d like no regulations but honestly it hasn’t been a problem. I much prefer the Norwegian system to the American system to be honest.

  • Tim Nickler

    Hello, I am Tim from B&T USA. The photos provided of the APC308 are in its prototype stage. It may not have those grips or that stock in the end. The flash hider will NOT be pinned. The handguard will cover the gas block. The short barrel is due to import restrictions…it will be imported as a pistol initially which restricts it to 26″ overall. We are working on a workaround such as FN must have done to offer longer barrel options including a DMR 18-20″ length. However, the first model will likely be a pistol with 14.5″ barrel, and options for stocks (NFA rules apply) will be accessible.

    • Pete – TFB Writer

      Thanks for coming by, Tim. We appreciate the update. Replied to your email.

    • tb556

      What will be the weight of the 18″ model?