Why Pistol Caliber Carbines Have a Place

Pistol caliber carbines certainly are a divisive category of firearms. On one side of the fence you have their proponents who cherish them for a myriad of different (and valid) reasons, and on the opposing side you have the bunch who question their very existence. In this video we talk a little bit about why owning a PCC might be a good idea for many people.

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Transcript …

– [Narrator] Pistol caliber carbines tend to be a pretty divisive category of firearms.

You have their proponents who advocate their proliferation for a number of reasons which I’ll get in to in a minute.

But on the other side of the fence, you have the people who denounce their existence, declaring that their, insert semi-automatic rifle here, is superior in every respect.

While a rifle is generally a better choice for a combat scenario, pistol caliber carbines fill many niches outside of a clash.

Historically, pistol caliber carbines like the Luger and C96 carbines were issued to artillery crewmen.

We call the longer Pistole 08 the artillery Luger for a reason.

And one of these equipped with a stock and a snail drum, offered a whole lot of lead slinging capability in a compact package should the enemy overrun their position.

Remembering that when this was doctrinally relevant, the submachine gun hadn’t been invented yet.

When the German MP 18 quite literally stormed on to the scene followed by the American Thompson, and a slew of other first-generation submachine guns.

People began to realize the benefit of a small, rapid fire gun holding 30 or more rounds over a long, slow, albeit exponentially more powerful rifle.

Pistol caliber long guns would remain a military and police staple from the 19 teens until, well now really.

And while their use is subsiding, they still remain in inventory around the world for a myriad of reasons.

The advantages of a modern long gun over a hand gun are increased velocity, capacity, and above all accuracy.

Peep sights, a long sight radius, and a shoulder stock all work in tandem to turn the same round in your pistol in to a much more accurately dispensed projectile.

As a bonus, said long gun may also utilize the same magazine as your pistol, which makes it easy to grab mags from the same pouch.

As a patrol firearm that is more substantial than a sidearm this makes quite a lot of sense.

Having a standard ammunition type for your primary and secondary is a huge bonus.

But that probably isn’t enough to offset the benefit of a rifle or shotgun over a pistol caliber carbine, at least in my mind.

However in a competition environment, like a 2-Gun match this is fantastic.

The reason I actually bought my Cx4 was so I could use my Beretta 92 in tandem with it.

Having one magazine pouch and drawing mags from the same area for both pieces to get a better time.

I certainly wasn’t the only one doing this either.

Next up, pistol caliber carbines fire affordable ammunition.

Long gun training can get expensive quick.

And a 1000 round case of 9mm can be had for less than $200.

When it comes to developing your shooting skill-set, there’s no substitute for range time.

And a pistol caliber carbine can result in some pretty damn cost-effective time out on the range.

Also, pistol caliber carbines are great for teaching new shooters to handle a long gun.

Often times they are small and compact.

So for a younger person they might fit quite well.

The recoil the generate is very low, and also the report is much less significant than a rifle cracking off 5.56.

Because of these factors I put pistol caliber carbines in the hands of some of my younger cousins, as a bridge between rimfire rifles and center fire stuff.

To the kid it brings them a huge smile to their face, because they feel like Rambo shooting a slick looking modern 9mm long gun.

And neither the recoil nor the noise level instills any kind of fear.

But lastly, what about using one as a defensive tool? I know this is where things get hazy, because most folks are going to advocate keeping a rifle, pistol or shotgun in the home in case a person with nefarious intentions decides to invite themselves in.

Well a handgun certainly offers a lot of maneuverability that a longer firearm doesn’t.

Shotgun offers a higher hit probability with a low likeliness of over-penetration.

And a rifle offers a lot of power, and to many a lot of familiarity.

But what about a pistol caliber long gun? Well this may sound a bit silly, and be outright dismissed by a lot of people, but I’ve always thought that for many they may be a damn good choice.

You get the capacity of a rifle, most of the maneuverability of a handgun with a short model.

And the ability to make followup shots without deafening yourself or having a muzzle flash blind you.

Cracking off a rifle in a dark enclosed area with no ear-pro generally leaves you pretty disoriented.

And while a pistol caliber long gun isn’t quiet by any means the effect isn’t as bad.

Also a pistol bullet is less likely to make its way out of your home or in to a room where it might not be invited.

Light weight and controllability are also positives for more frail people out there too.

Now I’m not saying that pistol caliber carbines are the one true choice for home defense, but I do believe they offer some advantages that should be considered.

If you keep a shotgun and are comfortable with it, keep it up.

Same goes for those who keep a rifle or pistols for the same purpose.

But the humble PCC is an often overlooked alternative that offers many advantages.

As a bonus, most aren’t going to break the bank.

Auction sites like Proxibid can net the buyer a new or gently used Scorpion Evo, Cx4, Marlin Camp Carbine and so on, for well under $1000 and if you decide after a while that it isn’t your thing, you can always sell it for what you have in it.

So I think that these guns still very much have a place.

New examples such as the Evo, SIG MPX and of course MP5 clones are selling like crazy.

So obviously the public is interested, and with 3-Gun Nation’s pistol caliber carbine clash, you can now train with your gun in a safe and competitive environment.

Which I personally think is great.

Special thank you to Ventura Munitions for helping us out with the ammunition in our videos, and a special thank you to you for watching.

We hope to see you next time.



Alex C.

Alex is a Senior Writer for The Firearm Blog and Director of TFBTV.


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  • TheNotoriousIUD

    I wish it was about 50­­ degrees outside and I was in a back field shooting some of these.

  • El Duderino

    I’ll play devil’s advocate here.

    100 year old tactics as justification? They didn’t have a choice between compact semi-auto rifles and PCCs. We do.

    Cheap ammo? I guess. .223 and 9mm aren’t that far apart in price.

    Easy to shoot? Sure. But several generations of shooters jumped from a .22LR to a .30-30, .30-06, .270, .308, etc. just fine. I’m in the “work your way up to the most powerful rifle you can quickly operate and reliably score hits with” camp. The Col. Cooper approach. A PCC could be a stepping stone but I never needed one and neither has the millions who learned riflecraft in the military.

    I did get a chance to shoot a real FA MP5 overseas, and yes it’s a fantastic close range weapon. Too bad I can’t buy one! On semi it was pretty boring.

    I don’t think 9mm makes much sense until you get down to the MP5K/Scorpion size range, and even then, why not just take it down to a standard pistol? If you want a stock you have to jump through the NFA hoops.

    • TC

      For a young shooter going from a .22 to a full size rifle in .308,etc., there’s a real possibility of developing a flinch. Better to put a few thousand rounds through something with a lighter recoil and build the fundamentals.

      • El Duderino

        I guess so…I’ve found the 9mm blowback recoil impulse to be harsher than it should be. Part of it is throwing a heavier bullet than a .223, and part is the weight of the parts vs. a gas operated action. I’d MUCH rather shoot a 16″ AR than the Kel-Tec SUB2K 9mm I used to have. Maybe if I shot a 9mm AR more I’d change my mind.

        • TC

          Yes on the recoil impulse, it’s that heavy bolt slamming back. But the noise level and muzzle blast is less than a .223.

  • ThirtyReset

    Another benefit – around here, there are a LOT of indoor ranges I can take my CX4 to and enjoy slinging some lead because it’s a PCC. Not too many places (indoor or outdoor) I can enjoy an AR…

    • Anonymoose

      The one indoor place near me allows up to 5.56, 7.62×39, and .30-30, and the other one allows up to .30-06. Besides, it’s been proven that M193 breaks up and doesn’t penetrate as well as 9×19 FMJ, so you should tell your range management that and refuse them your business until they allow you to shoot 5.56 there.

      • iksnilol

        “you should refuse them your business until they allow you to shoot 5.56”

        Yeah, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t chew up backstop less than FMJ 9mm, the energy has to go somewhere.

        Regardless, where you gonna shoot at if they’re your only range?

        • Anonymoose

          Find a new range. There’s always more ranges around somewhere, unless you’re in Commiefornia or the Northeast.

          • iksnilol

            Was just hypothetical, if they’re the only range in your AO, what you gone do then?

          • Anonymoose

            Keep driving. You have to drive for like an hour to find an outdoor range near Cleveland, but it’s worth it.

      • retfed

        The first rule of gunfighting is, “Have a gun.” It’s not “Have a gun like mine.”
        Anyone who lights off a .223 or 7.62xanything inside a house is looking for permanent hearing damage, and the pain and disorientation can easily prevent the lawful shooter from getting off a second shot. A pistol-caliber carbine, either a semiauto or a manual action, is much easier on the eardrums.
        And, a lot of people don’t have the time to drive an hour or so to a rifle-caliber range, indoor or outdoor, that can easily take half a day away from their families and home obligations. Plus, a lot of indoor rifle ranges are unpleasantly loud.
        Instead of smugly telling someone to “keep driving,” maybe you should say, “Practice with your pistol-caliber carbine on your local pistol caliber range; learn the strengths and weaknesses of your weapon, and how to exploit the strengths and minimize the weaknesses.”
        Just an idea.

        • Anonymoose

          I can agree with most of that, but the shooting sports aren’t always about clearing rooms, and I’m not sure I have never taken a trip to any range, even the ones 20 minutes away, that has taken less than half a day. A PC upper or dedicated PC isn’t a bad thing to have in the arsenal. Depending on ammo prices at any given time it might be cheaper to shoot, even, but even pistol calibers in a house will screw your hearing up. I have nothing against PCCs, just hypocritical ranges.

        • zipper

          Being in a small, confined space(like a bedroom) when firing any gun will pose possible hearing loss and discomfort problems.
          That’s why it’s best to place Claymores near the front door, that are activated by motion detectors; if only.

    • PistolPete037

      That’s the and the price main reasons why I got my PCC and why I still have it. If you live in a city, even if it’s gun friendly, finding a place to shoot anything more powerful than pistol ammo can be difficult. It’s not as bad as it used to be, but with a PCC you don’t have to ask the question “Does this place accept full caliber rifels?”

    • Harry’s Holsters

      Biggest practical advantage if you shoot at an indoor range for sure!

    • nicholsda

      You could always buy a Colt AR-15 9mm Carbine. 😉

  • nova3930

    They’re fun as hell to shoot?

  • Raginzerker

    But my ppc’s a lever action……

    • Darren Hruska

      Careful! You’ll trigger Alex!

      • Raginzerker

        Lol or that nate guy, he blows a fuse anytime someone says they use a lever action

    • zipper

      Yeah, me too – .45-70GVT. What? They make a revolver in that chambering, so there.

  • Maxpwr

    PCCs are great. So many interesting designs as well from the AR-15 to the CX4 to the CZ Scorpion carbine to the MP5 clones to the Finnish Suomi M31 which also doubles as a heavy club. Love shooting them all at the indoor ranges where I can’t shoot .223 AR-15s. Great for introducing new shooters and the price is right on 9mm. Hope we continue to see new designs. Wonder if anyone will start making bolt action 9mms for states with bans on most semi-autos such as CA and NY and CT. Probably not huge demand, but would be interesting for people who want a PCC in those states, but for which most are banned.

    • Roy G Bunting

      I think a pump action PCC that accepts standard shotgun stocks and has options for different magazines would be pretty awesome. Heck a 45 colt pumpaction adapted from a 410 pump shotgun with a rifled barrel and modified elevator would be pretty keen.

      • tiger

        IMI used to have a pump gun. The Timberwolf in .357 and .44 mag. Wish they were still arround.

        • Roy G Bunting

          Me too.

          Part of the problem is that any manual locking PCC design will be more expensive to manufacture then a straight blowback design. And in most states, semiautomatic sells, especially with pistol grips and folding stocks.

    • De Facto

      There is a company converting armscor bolt action .22tcm rifles to 9mm, and I’m leaning heavily towards buying one.

      http://www.specialinterestarms . com/index.php?page=novem

      • Maxpwr

        Yeah, I saw those. Would be nice if they came from the factory in 9mm rather than conversion, but also something other than the grooved receiver for sights. A factory rail for red dot or other optics would be good. Other than that, I think those are a great idea/design.

        • De Facto

          Maybe if everyone in this thread kicked an email over to ruger requesting a bolt action 9mm they might actually do something about it. I’ve already pestered CZ about it.

          Personally I’d like a 9mm rifle in straight pull or mauser action with a nice, k31/Garand style stock – but I have eccentric tastes. I only hope someday I have enough money to make my eccentric dreams a reality.

          • Maxpwr

            That sounds like something I’d like, too. I like your theories and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

            I think the market in Kalifornia and New York is what is going to drive companies like Ruger to do anything. They can’t sell new handguns there until they agree to microstamping (which I hope they never do) so if they want to sell more product in that most populous market, they will have to come up with designs people want to buy. If I was an unfortunate enough bastard to live in Kalifornia then I’d like a 9mm bolt action rifle so I can have something for plinking and possible home defense though I suppose there are better options like a shotgun if I can’t have new semi-auto rifles or pistols. What a messed up gun law country we live in.

          • Blake

            “Personally I’d like a 9mm rifle in straight pull or mauser action with a nice, k31/Garand style stock”

            Great idea. A compact straight-pull 9mm rifle would be completely awesome. I’d certainly settle for a 9mm CZ-527 carbine too.

    • Porty1119

      Ruger needs to bring back the PC9. I’d buy one if the price were right.

  • Xtorin O’hern

    i just want a Colt MARS in 5.7x28mm, all the familiarity and compact size of a 10 inch barreled AR-15 but none of the janky P90 ergonomics and 5.56 muzzle blast

    • ostiariusalpha

      While there are those AR-57 uppers (and having 50 rounds available is just neat), I’d personally prefer a standard layout PCC that uses the Five-seveN mags. Now that would be a sweetie!

      • Xtorin O’hern

        have you seen the Colt MARS though? its exactly the same as an AR just with a shorter mag well. i have tried the AR-57 uppers and i don’t really like them, if i need 50 ill just carry 2 30 round mags and the MARS uses a rotating bolt, not a blowback

      • Anonymoose

        Masterpiece makes a MAC-10 carbine-thing that takes them.

    • Green Hell

      P90 ergonomics are better than any AR-15’s, or any other conventional gun i ever shot, period. Perfect grips, perfect fire selector, perfect ambi charging handle, perfect downwards ejection, perfect size and weight, perfect magazine (drum mag level of capacity, but without getting in a way, reliable, slickly fit into the design and transparent). Also, recoil is nonexistent and balistics are impressive for a pistol caliber round. Seriously, might be the most underrated firearm design of all time, people shouldn’t be so danm conservative and give it a chance.

      • Xtorin O’hern

        i have tried a P90, in my opinion literally its only redeeming quality is its magazine size and every thing else either has no effect on me or sucks, possibly if the grip were a bit more vertical and didn’t require me to break my wrist just to take the stance i prefer i would consider it

      • Malthrak

        The big problem with the P90 is how neutered it had to be to be legal for US sale. For a weapon designed around being a compact armor piercing high ROF bullet hose, it has to give up all of those things to become legal for sale. It comes in with a huge barrel that you have to cut down and SBR, then you can never make it run at the rate of fire it was designed for, and you cannot buy the original armor piercing ammo that the whole platform was designed around.

        Its a cool gun, but the above reasons kill a lot of its luster, especially at almost $2k

        • AC97

          At the risk of sounding like a broken record, you can get 5.7×28 ammo that can go through armor, like T6B, which has the ability to go through the equivalent of three IIIA panels, and that’s out of a Five-Seven. The great thing about that is that it doesn’t fall under the definition of AP as defined by federal law, due to it being a copper bullet.

        • It’s really not that neutered. With the 16″ barrel it’s 26″ long, the same length as an 8″ barrel MP5 with the stock extended.

          Furthermore, the 16″ barrel “de-neuters” the factory ammo; 40gr’s at 2100, 27gr’s at 2500 – all of the factory civilian ammo will defeat IIIA when fired out of the PS90.

          In fact, our very own TFB did a test to that effect a while back, as have numerous Youtube testers.

    • therealgreenplease

      I just want a P90 in 9mm 🙁

      • Xtorin O’hern

        there is something about the parallel of our comments that pleases my brain +1 to you

  • ozzallos .

    “Why Pistol Caliber Carbines Have a Place…”

    Unless it’s a levergun. Then it’s obsolete. Regardless of the fact that you can’t get .357 or .44mag in a removable mag format.

    • SP mclaughlin
      • ozzallos .

        WTF. That’s kind of awesome. Objection sustained.

      • jamezb

        omg you found a Deagle I LIKE..

    • Right, because leverguns suck, and .357 and .44 mag have almost none of the advantages Alex listed for PCCs. 🙂

      • Someguy

        Why are you such a snob when it comes to leverguns? Get over it, people still like them, I mean I use a bolt gun for hunting but a 30-30 still works were I love just fine, and honestly, a levergun in 357 sounds like a fairly good sd gun, way better than a mauser

        • I am an avowed fan of the Savage 99. What we’re talking about are tube-fed “cowboy” lever guns, and I don’t like them because they are objectively a bad design.

          You and anyone else are welcome to like them, but I’d personally like to get past all this pretend play we’re all expected to do where we just act like tube-fed lever actions are every bit as good as a modern semiautomatic. In my opinion, the only reason for this is because lever-action owners and fans act like they need validation from everyone else for their choices in firearms. Who cares? Buy and use what you want, but I am not going to pretend like it’s the best possible choice.

          • Someguy

            I don’t think anyone here is saying they’re as every bit as good as a semi auto, but for things like hunting and even home defense they’re still feasible, were I love, bolt guns are kinda unnecessary for hunting cause you won’t shoot past 60 yards, I just use them cause It’s what I know

          • Someguy

            ***live… auto correct

          • Yeah, and I’ve got no problems with that. Just seems like levergun folks are generally really defensive. I get a lot of hate over lever-actions even though I’ve only talked about them a handful of times (I think I’ve only written one post where lever actions were the centerpiece, in fact). Saying “I don’t like leverguns because they suck” is, apparently for some people, tantamount to murder.

          • Someguy

            But you attack anyone who likes them, and I’ve noticed you attack anyone who disagrees with you on anything

          • Sorry, who am I attacking? I don’t think I’ve said anything negative at all about any person. Are you talking about my opinion that this reaction has been because people invest their identities in their guns? I wouldn’t consider that an attack, because A.) It’s demonstrably true, B.) I ascribed it to myself, too, and C.) I don’t think anyone needs to feel bad about it.

            I don’t see any reason people need to be offended because some people don’t like the same guns they do. I wrote a whole article about that, too.

          • Kivaari

            I don’t see it that way at all. He dislikes some lever guns. He gives reasons to dislike them. It’s hard to dispute the problems lever gun have, as they do have issues. The Marlin in particular have given problems for years. Pistol caliber ones in particular are ammo sensitive. I do like the M1894C .357 with .38 Special, it’s reliable with .38s and quiet like a suppressor.

          • ozzallos .

            And I still don’t think you get the fact that you can’t get certain incredibly useful, popular and time proven calibers in a mag format, all while blissfully ignoring the drawbacks of other antiquated actions like, oh, I dunno… the pump action shotgun?

            You can have your opinion, but the amount of pushback you’re receiving should clue you in on something, or is this a you’re right and everybody else is wrong moment?

          • Well, if Ruger hadn’t just (temporarily?) discontinued the 77/357, I could say you’re wrong about that, but regardless I cannot think of one reason I would want a long gun in .357 or .44 Mag. I imagine I’ll be hearing something about sharing ammo with a revolver, but I don’t care about that, and I doubt anyone else really does beyond the “neatness” of it.

            The pushback clues me in that people are irrational and defensive, and that they invest their own self-worth and identity into objects. That’s a very human thing to do, and I do it too, but that’s what I’m pretty sure I’m on the receiving end of here.

            Like, I don’t pick fights with levergun people. You could maybe argue I picked a fight with the StG-44 fans when I wrote an article that said in big letters I DON’T LIKE THIS GUN, but I’ve never written a comparable article about leverguns. Yet I get a ton of hate over this, even though I’ve hardly ever written about it. Isn’t that weird?

          • Kivaari

            Some of the most unreleable rifles I’ve needed to work on were lever actions. Marlins in .45-70 and .44 magnum give people fits. The better Winchester M94 with machined or cast lifters work better than the sheet metal era models.

      • Paul White

        you mean a 357 mag lever gun *doesnt’* have insanely light recoil? Subjectively my Rossi’s softer to shoot than my basic AR. And it’s sure handy and compact.

        • Let’s break it down:

          Competition – except for SASS where you can’t use anything else, no not really unless you just really want to.
          Affordable ammunition – For .357, nope, .38 Special is about on par with .223, and .44 is completely on a different level for cost. 9mm is substantially cheaper than all of these.
          Small and compact – Kind of, but in terms of length and weight an AR-15 is several inches shorter.
          Recoil is low – .38 Special levers are low recoil, sure, but hot .357 Mag and .44 Mag rifles certainly have more recoil than an AR-15.
          Report – Lower than an AR-15, but not as low as a 9mm PCC by any means.

          • iksnilol

            There’s 9mm lever actions as well 😉

      • Porty1119

        Get off your irrational hatred of levers. It is seriously harming this blog’s credibility.

        • DrewN

          I love levers. That said, I’d like to see some new short stroke pumps for pistol calibers.

          • Porty1119

            I would too!! A .45ACP, 9mm, or .357 pump would definitely be on my buy list as a plinker and secondary HD weapon.

        • Everyone who disagrees with me thinks I am harming the blog’s credibility. I think most people just have a hard time handling disagreement.

          • Someguy

            Lol your the worst offender of this

          • Handling disagreement? I get paid to do that, so I must not be awful at it…

          • Someguy

            Dude, your always the one getting in argument in the comments, more than any other writer here it seems, and just cause you get get paid to to do something doesn’t mean your good at it

          • What’s wrong with arguing? Arguing is fun and often informative for me. I don’t see that as handling disagreement poorly at all, I see it as a very natural consequence of disagreement.

            Handling disagreement poorly would be getting upset, or even violent when confronted with disagreement. I don’t do that. I handle disagreement by presenting counter arguments and evidence to the best of my ability. Nothing wrong with that.

            And of course, I don’t do it every time. While I like arguing and engage in it regularly, I ignore a whole lot of stuff I disagree with every day. I wouldn’t be able to get anything done, otherwise!

          • Billy Jack

            No. Some of us just think your creepy uncle really liked The Rifleman. 😉

        • DaveP.

          He’s not “harming the blog’s credibility”, he’s just wrong.

          • Someguy

            Agreed, he’s just the blog’s token neckbeard

        • TeaPartyPagan

          I am a sometime poster, here, so if after stating this for the second time today, I am asked to leave, I will.
          This is the United States. We are a “free market economy”. If you don’t like ’em, don’t buy one, if you must, say, “I don’t like them, myself. I won’t buy one. Don’t get all condescending and try to make folks feel like their brains are Swiss cheese, just because they do. That is the whole principle of a free market economy. Buy what you want; let others buy what they want. Everyone is happy.

          • I don’t recall ever saying people should not buy leverguns. In fact, I wrote an entire article saying that people should buy what they want and be happy with it.

      • ozzallos .

        Okay, be honest– Where did the lever-gun touch you?

      • Don Ward

        And has been demonstrated, leverguns don’t “suck”.

        Perhaps a different choice of verbiage oh maestro of the keyboard?

    • SlowJoeCrow

      Ruger made .44 semi-auto carbines with detachable magazines for years, plus the 77 series bolt actions with rotary magazines.

  • Jim N Jenna SK

    Plan to throw a choate stock on my SP5k when I get the paper work filed..

  • thedonn007

    It does not get much better than a suppressed SBR PCC. I really enjoy shooting my SBR 9 mm AR-15 with a suppressor.

  • USMC03Vet

    I’m triggered by the constant use of “pistol caliber carbine” for firearms classified by law as short barreled rifles.

    *melts*

  • Bigbigpoopi

    We REALLY need binary triggered PCCs

    • Cymond

      Well the Franklin Armory BFS Gen-3 is supposed to be reliable & compatible with 9mm AR-15s. FWIW, KNS makes a set of trigger/hammer pins specifically designed to swap triggers easily, so if that’s a thought for anyone who can afford a binary trigger and has multiple AR-15s.

      If I had a spare $500 laying around to spend on a trigger, I would totally put one in my (upcoming) Glock-mag AR-9. However, I have more pressing gun projects in the works.

  • The sound advantage is significant – in open spaces a 16″ 9mm carbine is not quite but very close to hearing safe. In an enclosed space, the difference in sound level between a 9mm carbine and a 5.56mm carbine can be substantial.

    Here’s the problem I see, most of the time, however: Many (not all) PCCs cannot feed JHPs worth a damn. This means you must use FMJ ammunition to achieve reliability with any firearm that cannot do this, and FMJ 9mm is just about the worst possible choice for self-defense short of .410 birdshot.

    I don’t think I am enough of an expert on PCCs to say which ones can and cannot reliably feed JHPs, but if this idea sounds like a good fit for you, I would definitely try to find out.

    • Joel

      My Kel Tec Sub2K Gen2 in Glock 9MM eats anything I feed it, JHP or FMJ, 115Gr. or 124Gr., with never a failure of any kind in about 1200 rounds. And it’s accurate as all hell.

    • therealgreenplease

      hmm… I wonder how a Noveske KX-3 on a 9mm PCC would sound out in the open? Even indoors, it would be nice to have less muzzle blast and direct the majority of the noise forward and away from the shooter.

    • claymore

      Colt made 9mm AR-15s feed anything just fine including hollow points. We tried all types and brands of ammo before selecting them for our SWAT team.

  • Timmybadshoes

    They are fun too shoot. I know there are all sorts of Tactical reasons not to own one but most of my guns are bought for enjoyment. I’m a huge fan of 9mm and compact guns so naturally PCCs spike my interest.

    The designs vary more that rifles in my opinion, as the mighty AR layout rules all. I’d say the biggest downside to PCCs is the lack of standard mags. Either across the board or between pistol platforms.

  • imachinegunstuff

    I don’t get why gun people get so passionate about if something is useful or not. A lot of my guns are far from useful, and that’s okay, they’re fun.

    • CommonSense23

      All my guns are from a functional standpoint. And couldn’t agree more. My issue is when someone says something in a tactical sense that isn’t true.

      • Paul White

        Or argues that something sucks because it isn’t an effective battle rifle for the modern military….

    • Harry’s Holsters

      Agreed! You can cover all the guns you need if you do everything with less than 10 guns. But where’s the fun in that!

      • zipper

        10 guns?? If you’re serious about utility, like in a survival scenario, all you need is ONE gun – a 12ga shotgun.
        But, if you like to play, there’s so much to choose from in the wonderful world of firearms.

        • nicholsda

          In a survival scenario, the only firearm you need is a rifle firing a .22LR. A 12ga is overkill for taking food, like rabbit or squirrel.

          • zipper

            Yes, .22lr would be a second choice. But, for an all-around capable gun that is unsurpassed in versatility, you can’t beat a 12ga. Perhaps a combo-gun would be better, but most are single-shots, which leaves you wanting in a self-defense situation.

        • Harry’s Holsters

          You could cover defense, sport shooting and hunting all around the world with 10 guns and have something for pretty much any job one man could do. That said you could make a single 12Ga work for all the above but with 10 you could be well equipped.

          • zipper

            Not talking about jetting around the world, like some mega-rich Safari Club member. Talking about a SHTF scenario, like I said…. survival. You gonna pack TEN different guns with you in such a situation? And we didn’t even mention all the ammo!
            Get real. It’s either a 12ga or combo-gun. A case could be made for a .22lr, but it’s certainly less than adequate for some likely encounters.

          • Harry’s Holsters

            If It’s a SHTF situation I’m staying close to home where I can keep all my guns, ammo, food, tools, water firewood, etc… I’d have to travel through a lot more populated areas to get to a more rural area than I already live. Also look at wife life populations vs human populations. I won’t be hunting if TSHTF. I’ll be bartering and networking like people have done during every massive crisis in history.

          • zipper

            Good for you. That’s an enviable circumstance; wish I could say the same. But, if you live in an urban/suburban area, it would be wise to high-tail it out of there. Only a matter of time before the hunger-crazed zombies find you.
            As for 10 guns…. Why 10? I could see 4, at most, and That is being generous. 12ga, .22lr, .308 or .30-06, 5.56 or 5.45
            10 guns, especially if you’re not hunting- again, Why???

          • Harry’s Holsters

            I wasn’t commenting on 10 guns for SHTF I was commenting on 10 guns for uses in the modern world like trap, 3 gun, ipsc, idpa, F class, African Big Game hunting, rest of the world big game hunting, small game hunting, bird hunting, concealed carry etc…

            If I could only have one gun in SHTF it’d be a Glock 19 and I’d carry it concealed.

          • Harry’s Holsters

            If you were very wealthy did all these activities but for some reason you wanted to limit yourself you could do it with 10 guns or less without majorly handicapping yourself. 2 shotguns, 3 handguns, 2 AR 15s, double rifle and 2 bolt guns.

          • The Brigadier

            Never before in history has the planet had 9.2 billion people on it. The first thing that will fail is transportation. Lack of fuel will be the main culprit, because electricity will be one of the first utility to fail and without electricity their is no refining. Once 80% of the world’s population are gone and there no more crazed cannibals left to shoot, then trade will most likely resume. Its the first six months you need to hunker down, be a small target, and wait out the insanity, The crash is coming and for the first time in world history it will be an eighty percent loss event. Its terrifying to contemplate the megadeath that will result from that fall, but for a time the survivors will be facing the Second Dark Ages. Choose your waiting location with great care and pray a lot.

          • Harry’s Holsters

            Look at areas where the SHTF. No matter what’s going on there is trade. The most likely situation to cause something like you’re describing is a virus.

            Virus or nuclear fallout are the only reasons I can see avoiding contact with others.

          • The Brigadier

            If you are right then you will be safe. If I am right and you are in a state of denial then you will die. I believe I am right. I will see won’t I.

          • Harry’s Holsters

            Let hope we never have to see who is right.

        • The Brigadier

          Only a 12ga in every survival situation.? How about the shooter who just missed you at 300 yds away. You might hit him if you shoot the thing like a small mortar with slugs, but I doubt you will hit him before you are dead.

          • zipper

            What you’re talking about is a very unlikely situation. The need for a firearm for survival will mostly involve food gathering. In that context, the shotgun can take small game, big game, and fowl. If the need arises for self-defense, it will most likely be at close range. Here too, the shotgun will prove its worth.
            Why would you take a shot at someone 300 yds away for no reason? That’s called murder.

          • The Brigadier

            Really do you think there won’t be raiders killing and stealing wherever they go? You haven’t been paying attention to the world scene have you? A major economic crash is coming and will happen within a few months. Civilization will not hold. If you haven’t prepped yet, your window is getting smaller and smaller each day. Better get to it.

          • zipper

            Never said that. My point was confined to the unlikely event of being targeted at long range.
            Yes, I’m aware of what’s going on. Your doomsday is a little too apocalyptic, imo. There have been downfalls all throughout history, but civilization has always survived. The exception to that will be the Tribulation, and for THAT, all the material “preps” will avail not. It seems pretty clear that we are in the predicted End Times, to anyone paying attention.

          • TeaPartyPagan

            Zipper, I think you may be the one who doesn’t understand. I will start by saying, I really don’t think it’s going to go south, but there are a lot who do. If it goes south, what civilization that remains will be at a pre-1850 level. And worse than that for a while. Mortality, just from known issues will be well over 50%. THEN we have to consider predatory “citizens”. A lot of folks are getting ready and a lot of people are worried. I have never seen it made an issue of, because it doesn’t directly affect a lot of people at the present, but I know why the FBI is investigating “patriot groups”. It has nothing to do with their belief in the Constitution, or dislike for “big government”. Not all, certainly, and even perhaps not a large percentage of those groups, but some are making plans based on predation of “non-aligned” people…. yeah, you and me.

          • zipper

            Well, aside from your very questionable references to dates & percentages, I agree with the general substance of your comment. I live in S. FL, where hurricanes are a very real possible event(survived 3, so far). I always have some supplies on hand “just in case.”
            There is big business in selling prepper supplies$$$$. Most people think they need much more than they really do. Unless it’s a total meltdown, getting through two or three weeks w.o. normal services should do you.
            Yeah, as T.P. myself, I share your distrust of – “I’m from the govt., and I’m here to help.”

      • nicholsda

        Because in many cases it is more fun to have 10 of just one type of gun. 🙂

        • Harry’s Holsters

          Nothing wrong with that either!

    • Nashvone

      I must have missed the email saying I was only allowed to have one pistol, one rifle and one shotgun.

      • iksnilol

        Some of us do have restrictions on how many guns we can have tho.

        • jerry young

          Best advise move to a more gun friendly state or just don’t tell your wife how many you have

          • TeaPartyPagan

            That is why I left New York and came back to South Carolina….

          • jerry young

            Good move!

          • iksnilol

            So I should move out of a pretty decent country so that I can legally own a couple more guns?

            Yeah, nah.

          • RocketScientist

            If my gov’t started limiting my ability to effectively defend myself, yeah I’d move. Not sure where to, at this point… there’s gotta be SOMEWHERE with unrestrictive firearms laws… right?

          • iksnilol

            Well, I can own a set amount of guns. So I don’t consider myself too restricted.

            Besides, for shooting people an illegal, homemade gun is better.

          • TeaPartyPagan

            In the US, home made guns ARE legal…. till you shoot someone with them, and even then, if it is self defense

          • iksnilol

            I’m not in the US, buddy.

            And even the, getting an illegal gun doesn’t mean a homemade gun always. Those truck bed hinges are notoriously bad.

          • TeaPartyPagan

            Oh I had noticed. Norway if memory serves, by way of Yemen. Very cool. Good place to be FROM. Oh I know… I really have made a study of this. In the pictures I post on other social media, in pictures particularly from Brazil, often right next to a beautifully made Luty sub-gun or two (or more) you will see S&W’s, Berettas, Brownings. Home-made, criminal enterprise, and commercial – all side by side….

          • iksnilol

            Plenty of people appreciate arts and crafts… too bad many are criminals 😛

          • The Brigadier

            Do you have the plans for Luty’s two 9mm SMGs? I love the BPS and I found all the parts in American plumbing parts. I haven’t built one yet, but for a small effective sprayer, these are inexpensive and simple to build and they look very reliable. Peter Luty passed on, but his legacy might save a lot of people.

          • The Brigadier

            Nowhere will be safe and you need a lot more than guns.

          • iksnilol

            Okay, “nowhere” sounds like a decent place to start then 😛 (but seriously, you sound a smidge paranoid there).

            But yeah, guns aren’t a big deal really.

          • The Brigadier

            Good luck.

          • jerry young

            Your choice I own what I want and can afford if where I live would restrict what and how much of what I can own then to me that’s not a decent country, state or city I’d move to a place with less restrictions but that’s my choice just like you make yours

          • iksnilol

            Well, to be honest. Every country in this world restricts arms to some degree, even Yemen which is a lawless wasteland (basically).

            I just jump through a couple of hoops to get what I need/want, any further I can just jump through a couple of illegal hoops (everything, and I mean everything falls off a truck for the right sum… which surprisingly isn’t as high as you’d expect). Doesn’t really bother me.

            I’d say Norway is pretty damn decent. I got money, basically no crime, good healthcare, decent folks, nice nature and the gun laws themselves are pretty lax in some aspects (no control on scopes and suppressors). So yeah, if I wanted to be a single issue person who lived, breathed and was obsessed with guns and obeying the law (two obsessions that I don’t see intersecting often) then I could move to Yemen. Heck, I’d argue why you stay in the US when Yemen has laxer gun laws?

            What I am trying to say is, guns aren’t everything. And trust me, when they’re needed, they crop up everywhere (sure, it’s nice to have them early on and that’s what I am in the process of but it isn’t hard to acquire one either) but firearms don’t win wars. If you’re serious about prepping and stuff, you’d get yourself a battery of 105mm cannons and train enough people to operate them and keep the parts and ammo on hand.

          • jerry young

            You are right every country has it’s restrictions but I was speaking more on the freedom side I don’t like being told I can only have 10 of something, if it happens here and I’m not on deaths door then I might move but I fought for my counties freedoms and I think I’ll stay and continue to fight for the same reason, now if we’re talking state city or county I’d move to a less restricted part of my country without hesitation

          • iksnilol

            I can agree with you there mostly. That’s why I and my acquaintances can be more lax around gun laws. I mean, I like a good Mauser for general purpose, but there’s something nice about a FA short barreled AK for bad times.

          • jerry young

            I have been thinking of building a short barreled 9mm AR as my next project not decided yet carbine or short, I have the lower I’m just putting together the money to buy the parts for the upper

          • TeaPartyPagan

            “And trust me, when they’re needed, they crop up everywhere”….
            THIS is what I keep trying to explain to “gun control nuts”. They just can’t grasp that if you control guns, it only controls those who *obey the laws*. Then it’s field day for those who don’t. Guns have been illegal in China for over 75 years, and they still confiscate guns every day. Brazil…. very tightly controlled, and they confiscate them by the truck load…. the US will be worse than Brazil if they outlaw guns
            Truthfully, with almost 300,000,000 *legal* guns, I don’t see it happening, though they will try.

          • Core

            Guerilla warfare wins wars, firearms are required. You can only manufacturer so many bombs. Norway is on my list of places I want to invade..love Norway. Anyone who has used a subgun operationally understands the value they bring. I’m a fan of higher velocity cartridges in short barreled rifles, but I don’t think we are to the point where subguns are obsolete. I can envision pistol dimension cartridges with knecked down to .25 in an sbr format dominating cqb in the not so distant future.

          • iksnilol

            Oh don’t get me wrong, firearms are nice. But arty is more important if you’re being legitimate and all. Guerilla warfare is good (especially if you’ve got the time). But to truly advance and clear out enemies you need arty.

            Serbs started running when we started shelling ’em.

          • zipper

            Forget the 105 cannons & crews. Maybe a large number of landmines, plus several light mg’s, plus a coupla mortars, plus maybe a tank(or 2) for good measure. Oh, almost forgot the helicopter gunship for air support. LOL Know any friendly international arms dealers who can supply all that stuff for pennies on the dollar? Call my gorgeous personal assistant @ 911-285-5744. 🙂

          • The Brigadier

            Yes that is why I live in Texas.

          • zipper

            What is the “pretty decent country” you speak of?

          • iksnilol

            Norway. Decent being downplaying how nice it is.

          • zipper

            Thought they had a “refugee” problem there, like the rest of Europe?

          • iksnilol

            No.

        • zipper

          Poor guy! Better get a new wife. LOL

          • iksnilol

            It literally has nothing to with wives or something.

            Y’all should be ashamed for letting your SO control you so much… and for being so addicted to something that someone needs to control y’all money so you don’t bankrupt.

          • The Brigadier

            Nah, was married to a woman for 24 years who had PDD. If you don’t what that is, fifteen percent of women worldwide have it. Its where their progestin levels get too high on their periods compared to the other two hormones progesterone and estrogen. When I was divorced the cure came four years later. Women with that condition are nice and livable, but on their periods they turn into Mrs. Hyde. The personality shift is startling and impossible to live with. After 24 years I had enough. No more wives for me. Only girlfriends where I don’t have to be with them for days at a time. Just in case Mrs. Hyde is still lurking in a new body you understand.

          • zipper

            That is why camping gear & whiskey were invented.

  • Bill

    Staple guns are fun, and may have those niche roles identified, but they just aren’t size efficient for a fighting gun.

    • TeaPartyPagan

      But if you are “fighting ” coyotes, they are the perfect size. If you don’t like ’em, don’t buy one, if you must, say, “I don’t like them, myself. I won’t buy one. Don’t get all condescending and try to make folks feel like their brains are Swiss cheese, just because they do. That is the whole principle of a free market economy. Buy what you want; let others buy what they want. Everyone is happy.

      • Bill

        I said they’re fun.
        I said they may fill those niches the author identified.
        I don’t have to fight many coyotes because I’m a couple thousand miles from the border and alien smugglers, but if I have to fight one, I’ll use a handgun to fire a handgun cartridge, and a shoulder mounted 2-hand weapon to fire a shoulder mounted 2-hand cartridge.

        I’m happy.

    • TeaPartyPagan

      Well, I actually meant real, canine coyotes, of which we have too damned many here in SC… I also meant it is not nice to turn your nose up at other peoples preferences, just be nice…. I guess I REALLY don’t belong here

  • CommonSense23

    Can we stop this whole pistol calibers are less likely to overpenetrate crap. Pistol caliber carbines or SMGs have been replaced for multiple reasons by rifles for people who do housework. If you want to use them for competitions or training, that makes sense. But trying to say they have some advantage of a rifle caliber tactically is asinine these days.

  • Don Ward

    But what about lever action, pistol caliber carbines?

    • tiger

      still great options. Never failed “the Rifleman.”

      • marathag

        Failed Ramon in _Fistful of Dollars_

        • Don Ward

          Hehehehe. That’s right…

        • zipper

          Only because he never cleaned his gun. Hey, the guy never bathed, think he’ll clean his gun? LOL

          • The Brigadier

            I thought it was due to Clint’s impromptu bullet proof vest. Ramon seemed pretty good at hitting him in the heart area.

  • codfilet

    When my nephew was in Iraq, he was at times a turret gunner in a Humvee. They kept a STEN gun in the turret in case someone got so close the turret guns couldn’t be depressed enough to get him. That gun wasn’t issued-they found it in one of the house searches they made. They felt they had a need for a PCC in combat. Whether or not they ever needed it, I don’t know.

    • wetcorps

      That’s pretty neat.

    • CommonSense23

      So they chose to use a gun that has a less effective round? Don’t know how old it is? When the last time maintenance was done on it? And they have little training on?

      • codfilet

        They were Marines-they adapt and overcome.

        • CommonSense23

          Again why choose the less effective tool?

          • codfilet

            Don’t ask me-ask them. I wasn’t there. They apparently thought it was useful for what they wanted it for.

          • jay

            So, knowing your nephew, as I’m sure you do, what’s the chance he’d go into battle with a last ditch weapon at hand, that he wasn’t sure would work? I’m not a betting man, But I’d bet that he and those who rode gunner in that vehicle absolutely knew for sure that it worked. And lets face it, a sten is smaller, throws a lot of lead quickly, is easily handled, and for such close range sights don’t matter. So in that situation, when the enemy gets too close for the mounted meat tenderizer to be effective, you opt for the hand held orifice maker. Wouldn’t you? ;-} Don’t mind uncommonsense, as he’s one of those train as you fight, and nothing else matter nimrods.

          • codfilet

            I’m sure they shot it beforehand. Their rifles were loaded up with ACOGs and M203 Grenade Launchers-not very suitable for a turret gun. In their searches, they found lots of oddball guns in Iraq. My Nephew once found an M3 Greasegun hidden along the bank of the Euphrates River. He wanted that one for a turret gun also, but it was too rusted to function properly. It got smashed.

          • jay

            Shame. I remember hearing about the 5k STG 44’s they found in syria. Man, would have liked to get a hold of a couple hundred. Would have been great for my retirement. Yah, I’m sure they check, then double check anything they have to use to keep alive. Thank your nephew for his service. I’m a Desert Storm vet. Peace.

          • codfilet

            He found lots of old Mausers and Enfields, but these days, they can’t keep anything-all the rifles got destroyed one way or another.

          • jay

            Such a shame!

          • CommonSense23

            You think a guy who chose to use a Sten gun instead of a M16 or M4 has any clue of what is doing?

          • jay

            I think it would be much handier than a M4 with a grenade launcher and electronic sight. And being in a combat zone, the duty NCO, or OIC, would have to give approval. So I’m pretty sure it was tested and vetted. But each to their own.

          • CommonSense23

            Who said anything about the gun having a grenade launcher. And how does a electronic sight make it harder to use?
            And what makes you think a NCO or OIC has any clue about allowing it or what they are doing. God knows how many incompetent NCOs or OICs there are.

          • RocketScientist

            “I’m sure they shot it beforehand. Their rifles were loaded up with ACOGs and M203 Grenade Launchers-not very suitable for a turret gun.”

            The original poster, the one who started this whole comment train said that… an ACOG adds bulk and weight that would inhibit maneuverability in cramped quarters.

          • jay

            You don’t have any trust in our soldiers do you? If so, then your opinion cannot be swayed. Good luck.

          • CommonSense23

            I got better training than probably 98% of the military when it comes to small arms. There is a lot of stupid things that people do cause they don’t know better.

          • codfilet

            Yeah? These Marine Officers might show you a thing or two. They were all sent to Gunsite Ranch before their tour, and they were familiarized with a wide assortment of foreign weapons before they began their assignment working with Iraqi Army units. They were in numerous gun battles , and worked with Seals many times. They know better than you, for sure.

          • CommonSense23

            I spent the majority of my career in Socom. Definitely got more time behind a gun and with foreign weapons than a officer.

          • codfilet

            Well, so you say. Playing lots of “Call of Duty” doesn’t count,though.

          • Porty1119

            I too play video games, you stolen-valor twit.

          • Kjk

            Why don’t you just stfu and not try to one up everyone’s comment?

        • roguetechie

          Army guys were known to do that same thing with M231’s that were just languishing away in the armory.

          Like you said, people will work with what they have, and sometimes having something, anything, to remind the locals that you’re serious about not wanting them up close to your ride is enough.

          That’s where stuff like the 231 or “informally acquired” Sten comes into play. They’re small and handy enough to not get in the way of operating the REAL weapon you’re there to use.

          It’s not an either or thing, but instead a why not both thing!

          • CommonSense23

            I have spent time being a turrent gunner. So really curious how a sten gun or a M231 is going to be more effective than a M4 or a M16.

          • iksnilol

            I think a STEN is much smaller than an M16, I also presume that a turret is pretty cramped.

          • roguetechie

            Most people who spend time as a TURRET gunner know how to spell TURRET.

            I’ve read lots of manuals over the years from various militaries and never once seen it spelled Turrent.

            I also happen to know that one of the key requirements to be eligible for SOCOM is being able to communicate clearly in written and spoken English, other languages being a plus. This especially includes knowing, understanding, and being able to correctly use military terminology.

            TBH what I and others have been mostly too nice to say is that if you’d ever spent time in a ring mount / turret you’d know EXACTLY WHY they wouldn’t “just use an M16/M4 the clearly superior weapon”…

            FWIW I’m not former military, but am an avid student of all things military, did pass the ASVAB with a score more than sufficient to potentially qualify me for the training I’d have needed to eventually wind up SOCOM, and I have spent time in various ring mounts and etc at every possible opportunity I could find!

            If it’s obvious to me, a glorified military technology fan boy, to understand why they wouldn’t ” just use an M16/M4″ then it should be crystal clear to someone who’s one of Americas special operations professionals.

          • The Brigadier

            Come on he spelled it right in a sentence above that. It was typo. Don’t be a smug Ahole.

          • roguetechie

            If he did he edited it, really though it’s beside the point. Though it is kinda funny that I’m being called the smug one when my comment was directly in response to smug comments from someone wanting to be seen as an authority on the subject.

          • TeaPartyPagan

            The obvious answer is…. If an M-16 or even an M-4 is so long it pokes your buddy in the eye when you try to bring it into play, why *wouldn’t* you use an M-231 (the weapon specifically *designed* to be used in a turret)…… You may have spent time as a turrent gunner (whatever that is), but I have to question whether you even know what a turret is. Stuck in a turret, about to be over run, I believe I would choose the gun I could actually use, whatever model, over one I couldn’t even operate in my cramped quarters.

      • John

        Some smartass once said you don’t go to war with the army you want, but the army you have.

        And those particular soldiers had a Sten gun.

        • CommonSense23

          They also had a rifle which is a far better choice. So they purposely chose a crappy weapon.

          • Joe

            Marines slinging their M16A2/4’s and using battlefield pickups for MOUT absolutely happened during the earlier part of the war. I specifically remember a pic of a Marine advancing up a stairwell wielding a PPSh. If unwieldy rifles weren’t an issue then explain the Corps recently adopting the M4 for line troops?

          • zipper

            The reality of current combat is that of urban combat involving irregular forces. The days of huge armies meeting on the field of battle and slugging it out until one is either annihilated, or retreats, is pretty much over.
            That said, a shorter, lighter weapon capable of massed fire is preferable for the house-to-house mission often encountered.

          • The Brigadier

            Until it happens again. China is our main threat and they have a 12 million man army. I do believe that conflict will mainly be on fields of battle.

          • zipper

            Where did you get 12 million? I’ve seen figures from 850,000 to 4.6 million(2.3 active + 2.3 reserve).
            In a serious showdown with such a large opposing force, it’s a good bet that low-yield tactical nukes would be deployed to “level the playing field” (literally).

          • demophilus

            Maybe the turret gunner *didn’t* have a rifle, or maybe it was too long for the hatch.
            I saw a few pictures of our guys with scrounged weapons in Iraq and Afghanistan in the early days. I never thought to begrudge them their resourcefulness, or micromanage their adaptation to a very fluid situation.

        • zipper

          Ever see a Sten in person? It’s crude as hell, and surprisingly heavy. Definitely a war-expediency device; NOT a weapon of choice.

      • DrewN

        Because they were 21 and it was neat? I mean, just a guess here.

      • jamezb

        How old is it? mid 1940’s – WWII steel generally hasn’t begun to rot yet,
        Maintenance? Have you MET a STEN? They’re hard to kill.
        Training? It’s an open bolt smg..running it ain’t rocket surgery.
        It’s a controllable bullet hose at the distances they are talking about, and quite a bit more compact than a M4. If you can’t get the M4 up and pointed fast enough, its superior round will do you no good whatsoever..

        • zipper

          Why there are pistols.

          • imachinegunstuff

            There is like 10 pistol in a line company in the Marines, LCPL/PFC turret gunner isn’t getting one

          • zipper

            Get your own. It’s allowed.

          • imachinegunstuff

            lol wut? you certainly cannot

          • zipper

            Have the rules changed? Our guys in ‘Nam certainly did. Some guys serving in Iraq & Afghan. bought pistols for themselves that they said they were taking back there.

          • The Brigadier

            i did in Nam and my father did in Korea. He bought an old break open Webley in .38 short from a British leaving. It helped save his life when a million Chinese crossed the Yalu River and began swarming southward. I found an old 45 in the ground, and an armorer who owed me a favor for helping him get a flight to see his new son, rebuilt that old POS nearly to like new specs if you ignored the pits caused by rust. I traded it to a guy for a .30 M1 Carbine. We were both very happy.

      • nova3930

        What are the maintenance requirements on a Sten gun anyway? Fixed firing pin, open bolt. Exploded view looks like less than a half dozen moving parts in total. Hose it down with solvent then hose it down with oil?

    • zipper

      Open hatch, drop grenades—- Done!

  • TC

    For anyone giving their opinion, have you shot any pistol caliber carbines I recently assembled an AR9 on a PSA dedicated lower, and it’s now my favorite carbine to shoot. Go with a subsonic 147 grain load, and it’s a lot quieter than a .223. As far as the lever action pistol carbines, the ones I have shot were more likely to misfeed unless they were operated briskly.

    • mouse

      I was very close to grabbing the PSA 9mm lower daily deal today. Came to my senses and didn’t do it…I bought the KS47 blem lower instead. I already use my Scorpion EVO sbr at 2 gun matches where long shots are under 100yds and I love it. But I got the sickness… 🙂

      Scorp also does double duty right now for nightstand gun, suppressed with 30 rounds of 147gr HSTs. That will change when my YHM ULT is out of ATF jail and sits on my AR.

    • Paul White

      I’ve shot a high point 9mm, but other than that, just lever guns. I’d actually like to try more of them, but no one I know well IRL has something like the Beretta one, or the CZ one, and no on here rents them out either.

      • TC

        I shot a Marlin Camp Carbine, shot well, but really stiff trigger pull. Shot the IMI Timberwolf pump action .357. Nice carbine, but you had to work the action briskly or it would ftf. I personally like the AR9 carbines because of the modularity, and the ability to put in a good trigger, plus you can build one for about $500. In a perfect world, I would get a short barrel MP5 with a supressor, but that isn’t going to happen here in Commiefornia.

  • Calimero

    – Can train on ranges where rifles are banned (indoor ranges)
    – Can train on steel at short range
    – Ammo costs half (9mm vs 5.56)
    – PCC SBR + Subsonic ammo + Suppressor = No hearing protection needed

    So yeah, carbines are great and are probably better for real “social” use.

    But as training/competitive guns, PCC still have their place. And even as a home defense gun (aforementioned SBR+Can).

    • TC

      Right now, I am seeing 9mm for about $225 /1000, and .223 for $325. It’s about ten cents a round cheaper. Your mileage may vary.

      • Calimero

        On my side of the pond, 9mm is 170EUR while 5.56 is 350EUR (brass cased).
        Even at your prices, that’s -30%. If you’re reloading, again handgun rounds are much simpler (= faster) to reload.

        Don’t get me wrong, rifles are definitely better combat & long range tools, but for short range training, PCC are valuable.

  • tiger

    I’ll double down on the indoor range thing. It makes it a weapon you can practice with regularly. Folk are enamored with the defense shotgun, but few shoot them much. Nor are they suited to a trap range.

  • thedarkknightreturns

    I have to disagree with the idea that pistol rounds out of a carbine (in this case an 8″ MP5) penetrate less on stick frame walls. Frankly in my experience the very opposite is true. One of our SWAT guys had a three round burst go through three interior walls and out the front of a house. The rounds were never recovered. I believe the round was a bonded 147gr Gold Dot. Not many opt for the MP5 anymore, most have switched to some sort of AR15 in 5.56 it seems to offer lower risk of over penetration on interior walls, particularly with lighter weight projectiles. They fragment and break up pretty quickly. Plus with cheap and readily available body armor, we have been seeing more and more bad guys equipped with at least NIJ IIIa. This has caused us to consider rifle calibers more practical.

    • Dougscamo

      Agree. Have seen the exact same scenario.

  • demophilus

    Not for nothing, but at least one of the NJ police who took down Ahmad Rahami was carrying a Beretta CX4 PCC. So they have at least one place.

    • gunsandrockets

      Really? That’s interesting.

      • kreatin

        Linden PD and several other PDs in NJ use .40 cal beretta CX4

  • UCSPanther

    I think we need more traditional-pattern pccs. There is a dearth of them ever since Ruger discontinued the police carbine and Marlin dropped the camp carbine.

  • jamezb

    Dear Operators.
    There’s a reason that pistol caliber lever actions make a good home defender, and it’s a reason that never gets discussed, but should be.
    I’ll get to that in a minute.
    The crackhead that jimmies your kitchen door at 3am armed with a Jimenez .380 is not going to know or care if the weapon that only had to penetrate a layer of t-shirt and three inches of person to blow open his heart was the state of the art go-to for facing Russian Spetznaz or engaging the Taliban at 400 meters. He’s not going to chuckle if your optic cost less than your gun. He’s going to drop to the floor and bleed out never knowing or caring.
    Then comes the next part, The court part.
    Because you should count on going to court, ….twice….
    ….Ask Mossad Ayoob
    The jury, will see either the weapon they see plastered behind the newscaster’s head every time there is a mass-murder…or a gun similar to the one their father or grandfather had. That creates either a negative or positive association in their minds. Don’t get me wrong.. I’m against stupid laws and the stupid mindset that some guns are “evil”… but until you convince Jane Q. Public of that, you face that stereotype… but you had the scumbag dead to rights, no pun intended, and we’ll give you a “not guilty”.
    There’s more woods ahead. the civil suit.
    Your tactical wonder-weapon is going to potentially be an even bigger problem in the next courtroom, where the deceased scumbag’s family is suing you over his “wrongful death”, where their lawyer will hold up your M4, and say “this is a rifle made for shooting people, bought by a person just itching to shoot someone.”
    It’s not that easy for him to make that claim if the rifle in question looks to the jury like it just came out of John Wayne’s saddle scabbard or used to leave with grandpa early every Saturday morning during deer season.
    Lever action pistol calibers…357, .44-40, .44 special, .44 magnum, .45 Colt…these rounds are man-stoppers through a pistol, and even more so through a carbine. As far as magazine capacity goes, if you need more rounds to hit someone in your house than the average lever action holds….I hope to god you don’t live next door to me, because it sounds like you are planning on slinging misses all over the neighborhood.

    • Blake

      Excellent writeup. A 9mm Marlin Camp Carbine is a great compromise that fulfills all the conditions mentioned by Alex as well.

      Let’s crowdfund wooden furniture for the SUB-2000 🙂

    • RocketScientist

      I’ve heard this argument a lot. Do you have references for instances of this ever actually happening though? Not trying to debate/argue with you, honestly curious. I hear people say stuff like this all the time, but I’ve never seen or heard of a case where a prosecutor in a criminal trial or an attorney in a civil case made this argument.

    • Aaron

      I would poke a number of holes in this arguement but it wouldn’t be fair because I don’t know from what context you are typing from. You could live in a state/country/province with poor Castle Law doctrine protection.

      Prosecutors file chargers based on the belief of the charge sticking in a court of law. Here in Missouri we have strong Castle Law protections and have recently implemented “Stand your ground” protection as it relates to personal defense (not home defense). Getting back to the point it doesn’t matter what I shoot a home invader with in my home as long as I properly convey to the responding LEO that I felt the invader posed a lethal threat. The type and look of the weapon will not sway a prosecutor into making a choice for or against filing charges. It only becomes useful if you the homeowner do something stupid and/or say something stupid to the responding LEO.

      Times -and laws- change and concepts that Massad wrote about 20+ years ago are less valid if not completely invalid.

      • TeaPartyPagan

        As far as South Carolina goes, I am inclined to agree with you 100%, Georgia, Tennessee, and North Carolina, most likely as well. Ahhhhh, but not so distant Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, a little farther north to Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey…. The farther North you go, you are truly almost placing yourself on the mercy of the court to even own, Gods forbid, use “An Evil Black Weapon”(TM), or even one that remotely resembles one. It is really scary up there. That is why I left New York to return to my more sane and sensible home state of South Carolina. I don’t know where JamezB is, but I am willing to bet he has righteously had the fear of the courts put in him. I say, the bottom line is, know not just the law, but the attitudes of the judges, and the likely jury pools in your home sweet home jurisdiction.

        • Billy Jack

          Exactamundo. I’m in SC as well and Chuck Wright is my sheriff. I’d be looking at one court case – civil and the crackhead’s family having to find an attorney looking to lose. Breaking into a home with young children and dying for it isn’t going to get you any sympathy from a jury around here. I don’t want to have to hurt anyone or be hurt but if stupid people press the issue so be it. I spent enough years in California and NY dreading any moment I’d have to defend myself from a criminal then defending myself again from the state. Rock meet hard place. Never again.

        • Raginzerker

          I can assure you Pennsylvania’s court are pro self defense, guns are big here, with the except of those twits in philly

  • SlowJoeCrow

    I have a 9mm carbine on the shopping list, because my wife won’t touch my AR, and I can use it on the 100 yard smallbore/pistol range. Also Beretta CX4s look awesome. The only indoor range I regularly use allows 7.62 NATO so I have shot a 5.56 AR there, but boy is it loud.

  • Matrix3692

    Just out of curiosity, for a Pistol-Caliber-Carbine using a conventional pistol-sized box magazine, which would you guys think is the more “ergonomic” configuration?
    In the pistol grip?
    or in front of the grip?
    or behind the grip (bullpup)?

    • In the grip is by far the best option from ergonomics and design efficiency. PCC’s that have mags forward of the pistol grip are missing out on one of the main advantages of being a pistol caliber- having the magazine insert into the grip.

      I like bullpups, but for PCC’s they don’t make much sense if you are limited by the NFA; a Bullpup is 26″ long, while the Beretta Storm is 29,” and could be much shorter if it had a folding or collapsible stock.

  • jerry young

    I like the idea of pistol caliber rifles for a couple of reasons, one I’ve always had this thing about the 357 magnum and have owned at least 1 ever since I became of age to legally buy a hand gun so many years ago and have always wanted to get a lever action 357 but haven’t yet maybe soon though, second where I live just within the last couple of years the state has opened up the use of pistol caliber rifles to hunting deer for may years we were limited to shot gun and muzzle loader then some years back they allowed the use of certain straight walled hand gun cartridges in hand guns that fell within certain guidelines now with the addition of rifles we are finally joining the rest of the states that are open to rifle hunting, most importantly the rifles share the same ammo as your hand gun so that eliminates the need to carry different calibers of ammo unless you have the need for long range shooting but in most cases around here distance shooting usually falls under 100 yards well within some hand gun rifles range but out of shot gun range

  • TeaPartyPagan

    A very timely piece, however you missed the category for which I just highly recommend a “light rifle or pistol caliber carbine”… Varminting.
    With the decline of hunting, the prey population is exploding. We are overrun with deer, rabbits, raccoons, and foxes – all true, but they are not the real problem. With plentiful game, coyotes are encroaching ever closer to civilization. A question came up on social media about how to handle coyotes. If (and only if) coyotes become a threat, I allowed that for short range and densely populated areas, a shotgun was probably best, but maximum effectiveness was probably best with a light rifle or a pistol caliber carbine because you wouldn’t be engaging the coyotes at long range, and even in (at least Eastern) rural areas, overtravel might be a concern. Don’t rule out the pistol caliber carbine as a bed side varminter.

  • gunsandrockets

    So does an M1 carbine qualify as a PCC?

    • Maxpwr

      “In the future, every cartridge will be chambered in a pistol for 15 minutes.” ~ Andy Warhol

    • TC

      yes

  • gunsandrockets

    I’ve never been interested in a semi-auto 9mm rifle before. But I was pretty impressed by the lightness, balance and compactness of the Gen2 Sub-2000.

  • PeterK

    PCC are awesome. Unless they are your suomi? 🙂

  • A Fascist Corgi

    I’m glad to see that my point about 9mm carbines being great home defense weapons because they do less damage to your hearing is starting to reach the masses. I don’t remember seeing anyone else making that point until I started to evangelize for it on this blog in the comment section. Everyone else seemed to be advocating for the 5.56 AR-15 because it has superior firepower. But my experiences with shooting 5.56 AR-15s and other rifles at indoor ranges made me realize that that was probably a bad idea because it was going to give people permanent hearing damage.

    Like I said before, suppressors are the logical solution to the problem of worrying about hearing damage while defending your home, but they’re so annoying to legally obtain that most home owners that are looking for their first home defense weapon won’t be willing to go through the hassle of obtaining one. That’s what caused me to start thinking about what would be the best alternative solution to this problem.

    I knew that pistols were a lot quieter than rifles from the videos that I’ve watched on YouTube and from my own personal experiences with shooting firearms. And I knew that decibel levels went down when barrel length was increased. So the solution became obvious: pistol caliber carbines with 16-inch barrels.

    I started to look at all of the options available and did a ton of research on which pistol caliber carbines were the most reliable. I’ve settled on the CZ Scorpion EVO 3 S1 Carbine as my top recommendation. And specifically the version with the fake suppressor since the whole point of this exercise is to select a firearm that’s as hearing safe as possible without actually using a suppressor. The other model has a muzzle brake that redirects some of the sound back at you. I used to recommend against the CZ Scorpion EVO because I read numerous reports of the polymer magazine feed lips breaking. But apparently they fixed that problem sometime last year.

    The SIG MPX Carbine is another great option if you want the absolute best pistol caliber carbine that money can buy.

    • Cymond

      I saw a MAC youtube video that claimed Freedom Munitions 165gr 9mm HUSH ammo is under 140 db out of a 16″ barrel. That’s getting into the realm of a suppressed 223! (if true, I haven’t seen testing)

      • Paul White

        *that* makes me want a 9mm AR.

  • Rnasser Rnasser

    Looks like some good reasons for pliking, but regarding self defense it’s more like comvoluted justification por the purchase of yet another gun…

  • William

    Hell I’m just happy finding out that I’m not the only CX4 owner that loves them. Although you haven’t convinced to change to 9mm, I do like the increased mag load, but 45 acp rules in my book. Fun reading your remarks fellas. Keep on shooting and having fun.

  • Spade

    My Uzi SBR has a place and is very useful. Useful at being awesome.

  • aka_mythos

    Pistol caliber carbines, proven cartridge with proven ergonomics. I think their virtues lie in being more ideal defensive weapons for the most likely scenarios. Rifles are great but they are arguably too much in an enclosed space.

    My only issue with pistol caliber carbines is the calibers chosen and the lack of performance design intent. I can’t help but feel when these weapons are designed they are largely designed around the ubiquity of an ammunition and a particular ergonomics rather than a desired performance. For example many of these carbines have barrel lengths based on the aesthetics of the parent firearm design, where slightly different pistol cartridges could make better use of that barrel length.

  • I do like the idea and of having a 9mm AR. If for nothing else just for something fun and cheap to shoot.

  • scaatylobo

    Might I add another reason to own and train with a pistol caliber carbine.
    I am getting a bit long in the tooth,and yes I still train and shoot with “real” guns.
    But I see that if your frail or a woman [ yes they are smaller than men = generally ].
    You can shoot a M-1 Carbine until you die,BUT they are very pricey and as scarce as hens teeth.
    So there is another reason to own a carbine in the “other” calibers.

  • Dave

    I concur. Yup.

    I was never in the armed forces, and handling an AR makes me feel like a poseur.
    On the other hand, I don’t see myself getting into a scrape where I won’t be out of time well before I’m out of bullets, e.g. a short-duration criminal ambush.

    If I had my druthers, an Ithaca Auto & Burglar or an SMG might be ideal. But NFA is spendy. So a semi-auto-only “subcarbine” suits me just fine. And since I made the choice, and got a Cx4 9mm subcarbine about 13 years ago when they first came out, I’ve shot it a lot in indoor ranges suited for handguns, outdoor ranges suited for rifles, and run it in a few balls out carbine classes. The instructor noted how much quieter the subcarbine was compared to the AR.

    The subcarbine is “too much gun” for a casual plinker, satisfied with a .22. It is “not enough, erm, ‘enuff’ gun” for a dedicated rifle enthusiast. On the other hand, if I’m in my apartment or home, it should be plenty. I guarantee ya, it is plenty more accurate, even if not exactly feeling well, ill, etc. than with handgun!

    BTW: I am a shotgun guy.

  • Curtis_15

    I prefer to keep my folding Carbine in my pickup. It’s a lot easier to access and swing around in my cab, should I find myself in a “Reginald Denny Environment”. And it also uses the same magazines as my handgun inside my belt.
    My long gun is under the back seat, should I find myself stranded and needing to hoof it back to civilization from the middle of no where.
    It’s about having the right tool for the job.
    You don’t build a house with a sledge hammer!
    You could, but it would look like crap.

  • Jamie Clemons

    Al capone loved the .45 thompson sub machine gun. Basically a pistol caliber, it was very effective slow moving heavy slug thrower.

  • Brian G. Lowery

    I’m very much “to each his own as long as it’s reliable” when it comes to what people prefer. I have gone back and forth on the subject of PCC’s myself. If I have one bone to pick with the article it would be the contention that pistol ammo would be less likely to over penetrate. All of the tests I’ve seen seem to show pistol ammo as, if not more, likely to over penetrate than 5.56 ammo.

  • uisconfruzed

    I want a Marlin 44mag levergun.

  • Eric B.

    I own a “pistol caliber” carbine, namely a PS90 by FN. The “Five/Seven” pistol also shoots these wicked little rifle rounds. I say “rifle” because that is what they are, giving far more reach than say, a 9 mm round. Plus the military and police versions of the round are AP in the sense that they will penetrate a level III vest to at least 100 yards. It was a NATO requirement that FN met.

    A P90 full auto carbine is, IMHO, the most advanced “pistol caliber” carbine around. It is fully ambidextrous and has a 50 round magazine. The design is truly innovative and extremely ergonomic.

    Speaking of FUN, my PS90 is so much fun to shoot. A red dot sight, plenty of ammo and a dozen water filled plastic milk jugs is my idea of fun with my PS90.

    BTW “iksnilol”, I live in a very gun tolerant state. My motto is, “I can quit buying guns any time I want. I’ve done it dozens of times.” ;o)

  • zipper

    I can only see one valid use for a PCC: for CQB in an urban environment, and that’s only if the gun is FA. Mostly applicable to LE use, as not too many people will have a FA.
    FN’s 5.7×28 was formatted to cover what the author mentioned, i.e., a sub-gun that had a corresponding pistol counterpart. Pretty cool to have a pistol that will let fly a bullet at over 2,300fps.

    • TeaPartyPagan

      As I mentioned in my comment, a PCC is the ideal varmint gun, particularly in a suburban setting. With a rapidly growing coyote population, this is becoming a greater concern for many more people. Many folks already have a hand gun for home defense, but a handgun is not ideal for pest control, particularly with a pest as large as a coyote. Also, in a suburban setting, even with a light rifle caliber, over travel/penetration is a major concern. A PCC gives a much more effective platform for a cartridge they already possess, as well as addressing over travel/penetration.

      • zipper

        Don’t know the laws where you live, but anywhere I’ve lived(or anyone I know), you Cannot discharge a firearm, pest or no pest. Besides that, if your pistol will drop a “2-legged varmint,”

        it’ll drop a 4-legged varmint.
        Most of those carbines are fairly heavy and have lousy triggers. There are a few exceptions, but not many. Unless FA, they are worthless, imo.

  • 35Whelan

    What about the fact that pistol rounds have a larger wound channel, and if you are throwing .45 ACP, you can load 45 Supers and start slinging 250g magnums if you so desire. All in a semi-auto magazine fed package. Bullet diameter matters. Velocity at short range is just a waste of powder, money, hearing, and often follow-up shot delay from recoil. Most all gun fights occur at very close range. Terrain, cover, and concealment generally require opposing forces to close with each other at distances where pistol carbines will be in range. One other major advantage of the larger caliber pistol rounds is the ability to penetrate barriers and heavily damage vehicles.

    • Mazryonh

      Why go with .45 Super when you could go .460 Rowland? Then you’ve got yourself something resembling Jeff Coopers old “Thumper” long gun concept, and with a 16-inch civilian-legal barrel length the recoil and the sound are decreased a good bit. A company named MechTech Systems already makes carbine conversion kits for M1911s in that caliber too.

      • 35Whelan

        The Super is superior because you can still fire .45 ACP in it. The overall cartridge length is near identical, therefore you will not have a problem with insufficient chamber support, like you would firing standard 45 in the Rowland. If you try to fire the 45 in .460 Rowland, you will be asking for an explosive problem on the back end, having an extra 1/16th of an inch gap. Besides, you can load 45 Super to Rowland pressures, essentially accomplishing the same end result, a .45 diameter magnum pistol cartridge. The brass for .45 Super and .460 Rowland is identical in all things but length, according to Starline Brass, meaning both cases can handle the same pressure. There is no real need for the Rowland. The only thing that makes it favorable to some is that it will NOT chamber in a .45 ACP gun. Meaning, if you don’t have the proper muzzle brake/spring set in place for 45 Super, and you accidentally mix up your ammo and fire that in a standard 45, you could have a serious problem. For many people, this makes the Rowland a superior choice, and there’s no knocking it. But for those who have a dedicated way to separate ammo, the Super is more versatile.

  • The Brigadier

    I am one of those who is not a fan of pistol ammo rifles. However, I do know people that are so bad pistol shots they can’t even shoot themselves in the leg. If they want something they can shoot reasonably well, and they need it for close quarter battles, like a home invasion then these rifles will serve them well. I will never own one, but to my aiming challenged compadres, there is always a firearm to serve any situation.

  • Eric B.

    Once again, I think the FN P90/PS90 carbine is the best of the best in “pistol caliber” carbines. It’s even better when paired with a FiveSeven pistol.
    -> Best range/trajectory
    -> Best ergonomics (including totally ambidextrous)
    -> Best body armor penetration
    -> Lightest ammo = more “rounds per pounds”