BREAKING: S&W M&P 15/22 Rifles BANNED at Appleseed Events Due to Run Away and Out of Battery Firing

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It might be time to take a second look at your favorite .22 caliber AR-15 trainer rifle: Bearing Arms is reporting that organizers of the Appleseed Project marksmanship program have banned outright the use of Smith & Wesson M&P15-22 due to problems experienced in multiple instances with multiple rifles at Appleseed events. The full release will be replicated below, but in short some of the rifles appear to be having problems with their fire control groups, which can cause the weapons to fire repeatedly without the trigger being pressed, and cause them to fire when not in battery. This latter malfunction has apparently caused one injury and should be taken very seriously. The release from the Appleseed Project is below:

To: All Appleseed Instructors

Subject: TEMPORARY BAN ON SMITH & WESSON M&P 15/22 USE AT APPLESEED

EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, THE USE OF SMITH AND WESSON M&P 15/22’S AT AN APPLESEED IS HEREBY BANNED UNTIL SMITH & WESSON FORMALLY INVESTIGATES THE PROBLEM AND ISSUES AN OFFICIAL CORRECTIVE ACTION. THE AOC WILL NOTIFY THE CADRE WHEN THIS BAN IS LIFTED.

The AOC has received a rash of reports regarding safety issues with the Smith & Wesson M&P 15/22, including a shooter getting injured as a result of an out-of-battery discharge (see reports below).

As responsible Instructors, we have a duty to maintain safety at our events. If we know a rifle to be potentially unsafe, we shouldn’t allow it on the line at all.

At this time the least risk course of action would be to exclude the Smith & Wesson M&P 15/22 from future events until Smith & Wesson formally investigates the problem and issues an official corrective action.


REPORTS TO BE AWARE OF:

Bowie, MD: A shooter (RHS) firing a M&P 15/22 with Remington 22 Thunderbolt Ammo had an out of battery discharge. A Metal Fragment hit the arm of a shooter next to her (LHS) in her right arm. She, did not realize that she had been hit with fragments at first and continued to fire until blood begin to pool (time est. 11:10am) feeling only a warm sting. Instructors rendered first aid applying a compression type bandage to stop the bleeding. Shoot boss suggested that she go to local hospital or emergency clinic. She was able to drive herself to the hospital. They took x-rays of the area and found a fragment deep in her arm. Hospital suggested that she see an Orthopedic surgeon or her Doctor on Monday to have the object removed but surgery should not be required.

Casper, WY: This past weekend we had a student show up with a 15/22. She had been using it pretty regular, since she had also attended our recent boot camp. After about 8 sets of squares, she began to notice the malfunction. Upon careful observation, it was noticed that as she reset the sear the rifle would discharge. We called cease fire and immediately removed this rifle from the line, and replaced it with a loaner.

Once off line, it was field stripped and upon inspection, found that not only was it firing at reset, but also when the safety was engaged. Further inspection found that the trigger pin and the hammer pin were both loose. They both had moved about 1/16th of an inch to the right. Just enough to be loose on the left side of the receiver. The pins were gently hammered back in and function checks performed. After about 3 sets, the hammer pin slid out again.

The rifle was reassembled and tagged out, student was told that 1) the rifle needed to be seen by her gunsmith; or 2) (my recommendation) sent back to the manufacturer for repair/replacement.

Michigan Senior Instructor: The SI wanted to shoot an AQT with his 15/22, but he needed to verify the zero. Another instructor volunteered to take the rifle over to another range, put it on a bench, and confirm zero. While shooting the first string, after pulling the trigger, the extractor shot out the ejection port along with the case and the extractor spring. The case was retrieved and it was observed to be split down the side, indicating that the rifle fired out of battery. Fortunately, the instructor was alone on the range, and no one was injured. The rifle was sent back to S&W, and it was repaired and returned. A copy of one page of the manual was enclosed, highlighting the need to keep the rifle clean and only use certain types of ammunition, insinuating that the problem was operator error, not a design flaw. The Senior Instructor sold the rifle shortly thereafter.

Michigan Instructor: “Back before I was more familiar with this model, we had a malfunction of the Extractor during an event – it simply fell apart during a course of fire. I took it to Williams and they said it needed to go back to S&W. To save time I just bought a new extractor, springs and dowel pins and replaced them myself. Tested it and it worked fine, that’s until it malfunctioned again after several hundred rounds down range.

As the old saying goes “two is one and one is none” – I had purchased several extractors, springs and dowel pins – replaced it a second time and it worked fine all up until I had a “Run-Away…”  Luckily I had the muzzle pointed down range as it spit out the balance of 30 rounds down range without the need to have a finger on the trigger….
I contacted S&W and they sent me a repair tag and shipped it back to them. Upon its return I noticed that they replaced the hammer, sear and all the springs were replaced with “Blue” springs. The rifle performed well the after that but I never brought it back to an Appleseed. It now sits in the vault as an expensive club.”

Montpelier, VA: I’ve witnessed out-of-battery firing and squib from M&P 15/22’s twice but never from a 10/22.

The M&P15-22 is a .22 Long Rifle caliber AR-15 lookalike rifle that shares with those popular black rifles its ergonomic design. Due to this, it has sold extremely well despite costing nearly twice as much as the more domestic-looking and ergonomically different Ruger 10/22, which is also very popular in Appleseed. It’s worth noting that this does not seem to be the first time an M&P15-22 has had a problem with out of battery firing, either.

The Appleseed Project is a marksmanship program that provides inexpensive training at short ranges (25 yards) that simulates fire at longer ranges. The goal is to qualify shooters to complete a simulated WWII-era US Army Qualification Test (AQT), for which students may use rimfire rifles.

TFB did reach out to S&W for a comment on this story, so far we have received no statement from the company.



Nathaniel F

Nathaniel is a history enthusiast and firearms hobbyist whose primary interest lies in military small arms technological developments beginning with the smokeless powder era. In addition to contributing to The Firearm Blog, he runs 196,800 Revolutions Per Minute, a blog devoted to modern small arms design and theory. He can be reached via email at nathaniel.f@staff.thefirearmblog.com.


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  • HSR47

    This is not particularly surprising to me; A club near me has several of these rifles, and at least half of them have been sent back to S&W for repairs so far, some of them more than once.

    They may be decent as occasional plinkers, but they don’t seem to have the durability needed to be used for any kind of serious shooting/training.

  • Joseph Goins

    I saw the one in Montpelier, VA. I’m just glad the kid wasn’t hurt.

  • Sid

    I have never had one issue with mine. I will be vigilant, but I don’t think there is any reason to quit using the rifle.

  • Cap’n Mike

    That sucks.
    I was considering buying one of these for my son.
    Hopefully S&W can get it sorted out.

    • Blake

      Just get a 10/22 or a CZ-512 instead, they’re better guns. If your son really wants something “tactical” looking, then there are a million ways to get there starting from a barreled 10/22 receiver.

      Another potentially interesting option for a “tactial” 22LR are the GSG repros. I don’t have any experience with them but they seem to have a decent reputation. Plenty of options: MP5, MP40, STG-44, AK47, AR15…
      http://www.americantactical.us/9/catalog.html
      Here’s TFB’s review:

      • Dr. Longfellow Buchenrad

        I like the p90 style drop in stock for the 10/22. What I don’t know is how crappy the bullpup trigger is.

      • Sgt. Stedenko

        SIG 522
        Nuff said

        • Blake

          Thanks, very interesting option I wasn’t aware of (if a bit pricey).

          Ever shoot one? How do they group (with, say, Automatch)?

      • Matt Wilder

        I own their STG-44. It’s been a great rifle so far and I have nothing but good things to say about it. However, two quirks one should be made aware. Gripping it by the magazine or resting the rifle on the mag can cause loading malfunctions, especially on the last two rounds (so grip it by the mag well if you must, but keep that hand away from the mag and loading button on the mag), and having an external loading button on the long magazine really allows dirt and grime to get in there, so it needs to be kept clean, or it will hang up at the worst time. Happened to me when dispatching an armouredillo the other day. If you keep these two things in mind, it is a very fun and accurate weapon that shoots nice groups, if albeit heavy, at nearly 11.5 lbs. However, it nails the historical accuracy on that point, so I’m fine with that. I really do love it, and it’s a fun alternative to all the other .22s masquerading as other rifles that are out there.

        • Blake

          Cool writeup, thanks 🙂

          Dang it, I only wanted their 9mm MP-40 before I read that…

    • marine6680

      I built a 22 AR from a cheap lower and a complete 22 DPMS upper.

      Very reliable and accurate, and I am very pleased with the quality of the upper. My total cost was less than the prices I see for the 15/22.

    • Sunshine_Shooter

      I would get a 10/22 for the sole purpose of it being seriously upgradable further down the road. Want to get more tacticool? Drop-in stock conversion. Want to be more precise? Target barrel and bolt and trigger. So much you can do with a 10/22.

  • CTFish

    Are these the gen 2 or gen 1 models? Are they even different?

    • TheBest

      Probably gen2s. I’ve had my Gen 1 for years and no problems.

      If there were widespread problems, we would have already seen stories.

      • Russ Kell

        Gen 1 for over 5K rounds and it runs like a top, even with golden bombs.

  • A Fascist Corgi

    Yet another reminder that way too many people have way too much faith in safety mechanisms. People within the gun community act like it’s impossible for them to fail.

    • Major Tom

      “Safety? Is not safe, is gun!”

      I always treat my firearms as if they’re loaded and ready to fire, even if the safety is engaged and the chamber is empty. Meaning I keep my finger off the bangswitch until I’m going to fire at all times. It’s times like this it’s better to be paranoid than suffer a malfunction, AD or ND.

    • Bob

      True, but this is a big deal regardless. Paying that much money for a .22 and having it come apart/try to kill the person next to you? Not very good PR. I know I wouldn’t want one.

  • PeterK

    Is this not just a fancy chassis for a normal 10/22?

    • PeterK

      I am an idiot. S&W, not ruger.

    • Brian P

      Nope – Completely different mechanisms.

      • PeterK

        Yeah, for some reason my brain decided to half function when reading the name.

  • Captain Obvious

    I don’t think Appleseed would take this action without very serious consideration. I hope S&W doesn’t just blow it off.

    • Tom Currie

      I would have hoped that Appleseed wouldn’t take any action without serious consideration. So far, what I see here are four reports of different malfunctions of single rifles. Considering the thousands of S&W 15-22 rifles in use around the country it seems odd that no one else is finding these malfunctions. I am not doubting that there might be a problem, but these reports do not identify any specific problem with the rifle – they identify different failures which are only related by the fact that they happened at Appleseed events and involved what is probably the single most common rifle there. This is equivalent to banning Fords from Interstate highways because four different Fords broke down in different ways at different places under different conditions.

      • Tom Currie

        Having just finished reading the rest of this thread – I see that the people here have identified more problems with other brands of 22LR “AR” style rifles than it took Appleseed to ban the S&W.

      • Sgt. Stedenko

        I guess your 15-22 purchase isn’t looking so smart after all.
        Should have bought a SIG 522

      • Bandera Bratt

        There are many more than the 4 circumstances listed in the report. After it went live, we’ve also been receiving similar reports from abroad. It only takes a matter of minutes on Google to find numerous reports of OOB and other safety issues with this rifle (including comments on this very page), which many Appleseed instructors have witnessed first-hand. When you have people laying on the ground in prone position, in close proximity, OOB becomes a serious safety issue. In 10 years and 10’s of thousands of students, our safety record has been well above average, with the worst injuries I’ve seen or heard of being stapled thumbs and skinned elbows. Sending someone home with shrapnel is enough to warrant careful consideration.

        • James O Donnell

          22 semiautos have OOBs on occasion. ALL of them. It’s an unavoidable consequence of using a cartridge which has the primer located in the same place that the bolt strikes to chamber a round in semiauto fire.

          If you want to prevent injuries, you need to redesign your ranges so that there is some sort of barrier between shooters.

          Or suck it up and accept that life isn’t 100% safe and occasionally people are going to get boo-boos. A tiny piece of brass in the arm is worse than a staple through the thumb, exactly how?

          • Doom

            “which has the primer located in the same place that the bolt strikes to chamber a round in semiauto fire.”

            This, I have been shot by a 10/22 in the foot because I was not observing muzzle safety when loading. Luckily it was a colibri round with no powder and just powered by the primer. Got lodged right in the bone too, made an interesting xray.

            Got home a few days later and investigated the 10/22, found the case still in the chamber, the rim was pancaked almost completely flat around almost 1/3 of the way around the rim. My best guess is that the rim was out of spec since it fired right after the bolt fell with my hands nowhere near the trigger.

        • Outlaw

          How far back, in years, does this issue go? I have two and I’ve never experienced any issues but they are both first or early second year production models. THANKS for anyone who might have info on this. S&W may have started cutting corners after it “exploded” (pun intended) in popularity.

      • The Brigadier

        It appears its happening after a lot rounds have been fired. Runaways shouldn’t be happening AT ALL. Its due to the premature wearing out of the sear and other parts in the action. Simply because its not happening with thousands of other rifles yet is not a reason for fixing the parts. As the Range Instructor noted in his report, Smith and Wesson returned the rifle with parts made from an apparently better grade of steel. They need a major recall and a fix all on their dime, and they better act fast.

  • Joshua

    It’s well known that the walls of the reciever on the 15-22 is wider than a standard AR-15. This leads to the shorter trigger and the hammer pins on the 15-22 to walk themselves out. My first 15-22 did it, and my second one does it as well. I’m ordering a set KNS 15-22 specific anti walk pins to fix the problem. The 15-22 is a great rifle, but it needs the anti walk pins to be better.

    • Nicholas C

      Yes. I tried putting an ambi safety on my MP15-22 and it didnt work out well.

    • mazkact

      I will likely install the M&P 15-22 specific KNS pins in mine. My Gen one has never given any trouble, mostly shoot Aguila HV Cp in it but it loves Federal automatch for accuracy. Initially my pins where loose so I “staked” them with Loctite bearing retaining compound, no more walking but I like the KNS pin idea better. I built an upper that replicates my RRA NM A2 upper using a Model one Ciener type bolt group, utterly reliable and very accurate but very expensive. Tech sites on a older Marlin makes a nice Liberty training rifle for Apple Seed.

  • Spencerhut

    I have a Gen 1 M&P15-22 with an Aimpoint and Geissele trigger I use as a practice and NSSF Rimfire Challenge gun. It’s had many thousands of rounds with zero malfunctions or issues. It lives on a diet of CCI AR Tactical with never one fail to fire. I clean it when I forget how long it’s been since the last time I cleaned it.
    It works good enough that I put a TLR1 light on it and now also use it as my racoon gun.
    Never noticed the Geissele trigger pins doing anything odd. I threw the stock trigger in the trash years ago.

    • Bub

      I have basically the same setup with Geissele and Aimpoint I use for steel challenge matches. Works really well with CCI. Never had any problems with mine and it has several thousand rounds through it (well north of 10k). Used it in an Appleseed Shoot. Saddened to hear gun is being banned due to problems. There are a lot of 15-22s out there and I for one thought it was a great setup. I hope S&W corrects the problem. Also, I must add I have nothing but the upmost respect for the Appleseed program.

    • Nicholas C

      I put a Geissele SD3G trigger in mine. Love it.

    • BigR

      I’m getting Geissele trigger;s on both my 5.56 AR’s! My best friend put me on them. I’ve shot his and I love ’em! I can’t wait til they get here!

  • marine6680

    Now I am extra glad I built a dedicated 22 AR with a stripped lower and DPMS upper.

    I know a guy who slipped while holding his 15/22 and broke the stock/extension off the rifle… So another reason I was turned away from the rifle.

    I even paid less than a 15/22 for my build, and the rifle has proven accurate, reliable, and a lot of fun to shoot. All at an accurate weight, as it’s made from proper 7075 alloy.

    I recommend the DPMS 22 uppers highly for anyone looking for a 22 AR. They are very well built, and well thought out. (I suspect that Nordic Components makes them for DPMS)

    I got my upper for $225 on sale. The whole rifle was less than $350 for parts and shipping costs.

    • Ben

      In my experience the dedicated uppers with cmmg type bcgs tend to start randomly doing short bursts when they get dirty. The carbon temporarily makes the firing pin fixed and acts like an open bolt gun. Having said that, i also love my conversion piece and ultimately sold my 15/22.

      • Pretty sure I’ve had an OOB on my CMMG dedicated upper, too. Tended to be much more frequent with Winchester and Rem ammo, for whatever reason. When you get down to it, “perfectly reliable .22” is more of a goal than a reality.

        Even with that caveat, I much prefer using the “real” AR platform for my 22lr needs, too. I sold my Ruger 10/22 and haven’t looked back.

        • marine6680

          The DPMS upper is very 10/22 like inside. Bolt design highly harkens to the 10/22. Its probably one of the leading contributing factors to the reliability I have seen.

          I had a few bobbles when it was brand new, and it was only 3 or 4, and only when my younger nephews were shooting it.

        • James O Donnell

          OOBs are a fact of life for ANY semiauto .22. The bolt is smacking into the rimfire primer as part of the feeding cycle — and fouling of the chamber is going to increase the chance that that impact will be enough to initiate the primer.

          The simplest way to avoid OOBs is to use clean 22 ammo — Remington Thunderbolt is notoriously dirty stuff — and to clean the bolt and chamber once in a while.

      • marine6680

        The DPMS has a completely different bolt design. Its basicly a reinterpretation of a Ruger 10/22 bolt.

        The whole upper/bolt was designed as a 22 from the ground up. They didn’t try to design a bolt that fit into the existing AR upper profile.

        They start with a raw AR upper forging, but it is milled in a completely different way. The bolt is squarish not round for example, And it rides on two horizontal rails.

      • James O Donnell

        Since the firing pin design is quite similar on the “CMMG type” (actually Ceiner-type) and 10/22, this should be an issue for both,

        It isn’t, if you actually clean and lube the bolt once in a while.

        • Ben

          With a 4″ barrel and silencer it doesn’t take long to go from spotless, to problematicly filthy.

    • BigR

      That would work for me!

  • Ondřej Tůma

    As for OOB, the 1st gen 15-22 suffered it a bit, the remedy was redesigned extractor and spring – the new ones are painted blue.

    As for the ammo, AFAIK the manual outright discourages using Thunderbolt.

    Anyway, I’ve had my 15-22 (w/ blue springs) for years without any problems.

    • BigR

      My Ruger 10-22 goes bang and ejects any brand of .22 LR I use in it. I’ve never had any problems so far! I love that little rifle!

      • Ondřej Tůma

        Well I never had any problems with my 15-22 either and it shot even Yugoslavian Pobeda rounds “not intended for self-loading rifles, only for bolt-action”. I love that little rifle! 😉

  • Disarmed in CA

    Put down the laser sights and fix the gun, S&W!

  • Nicholas C

    I had an out of battery detonation in my M&P15-22 as well. But only one so far.

  • I have thousands upon thousands of rounds out of my S&W M&P 15-22 Gen 1. It is actually a SBR and has a 4.5″ barrel and normally runs suppressed. It also has a 3.5lb CMC trigger with KNS pins and it is everyone’s favorite gun to shoot. Sounds like a BB gun. I never could get my AR-15 .22 conversion to run worth a damn.

  • James

    Girl be like…

  • Ben

    Interesting. My friend and I have countless thousands of rounds fired from 2 of these rifles. With and without a silencer. All different types of ammo used. One of them is pretty abused and has probably only been cleaned once in the last 5 years. I’ve never experienced any sort of malfunction aside from a handful of duds.

    • Sunshine_Shooter

      Just because there is a persistent problem doesn’t mean every rifle will have it. Just because some rifles never malfunction does not mean that all the rifles are safe.

      • TheGrammarMan

        And just because a few rifles out of tens/hundreds of thousands sold have malfunctioned does not mean that all the rifles are unsafe. These guns were subject to prior conditions of use/abuse that are unknown, as is the variable quality of .22 LR ammo which has gotten worse with the shortages.

  • Art out West

    Once again, the cheap little Marlin 795 shines. I’ve only heard good things from Appleseed about the little Marlin 975

  • MontieR

    This is an EASY fix. Buy a Henry lever gun and shoot ANY 22 lr on the market.

    • Sunshine_Shooter

      Not just a fix, but an improvement!

    • You have never attended an Applesewd course, have you?

      • Derek Johnson

        Lever guns work fine at Appleseed. Sure, tube mags are a bit of a pain, but we’ve had several people shoot a Riflemans score with them in Mi.

        • Oh, I’m sure some people can do it, but it’s hardly ideal. Working a lever while trying to maintain elbow position and a consistent NPOA is a pain in the butt, let’s admit.

  • Wanlace Yates

    Yes, I have had the OOB discharge happen with mine. S&W sent me free parts to replace the extractor, spring, and plunger that blew out of the rifle. Will see if any propensity to repeat this. It is a shame to see these issues since the rifle makes for a nice light trainer.

  • Kivaari

    My dealer discouraged me from buying any of the AR15 look alike .22 rifles. “Some work OK, some of the time, while others are problems, most of the time”. In the Army we had conversion kits for the M16A1, none of them worked well enough to bother with.

    • Norm Glitz

      Apples and oranges. The conversion kits suck. The Air Force version sucked even worse than the Army version.

      • MichaelZWilliamson

        AFAIK, they used the same version. The AF one may have sucked worse because of older, worn out weapons.

        • James O Donnell

          The Army and Air Force kits were different. Different bolt group, different magazine.

          • Norm Glitz

            True. I’ve fired them both, on Army ranges and AF ranges. Most of them were quite worn out, as well. Toward the end of my AF stint, our annual qual was with those kits. At least earlier we used S&W revolvers or M-16s.

          • MichaelZWilliamson

            When was that? I recall the same ones in the late 80s. It’s possible they were purchased in lots.

            I’m interested in which mfr did which.

          • James O Donnell

            Some info here:

            http://www.ar15. com /archive/topic.html?b=3&f=15&t=427023

            The URL will need to have a couple of spaces around the “com” removed — gotta keep Disqus happy…

          • MichaelZWilliamson

            Thanks.

          • MichaelZWilliamson

            Interesting. I wonder if my Army Guard unit borrowed Air Guard equipment, the one time we used sub caliber..under Clinton, of course.

  • IndyToddrick

    I like my Kel Tec SU22 better anyways.

  • JW

    I shoot my S&W MP15-22 often. Never had a problem yet. I will keep a close eye on the firing system. Thanks for the article

  • Justin

    That sucks. I earned my Rifleman patch during my first Appleseed using an M&P15-22 three or four years ago. Later I modded an A1 front sight to fit on the barrel so I could sling up properly and it worked even better.

  • law-abiding-citizen

    My only problem with this article is this part:
    “Montpelier, VA: I’ve witnessed out-of-battery firing and squib from M&P 15/22’s twice but never from a 10/22.”

    A squid has absolutely nothing to do with the firearm – it’s an ammunition malfunction. PERIOD.

    Not sure why this comment was included in the article. It’s speculative opinion, based on anecdotal experience.

    • Derek Johnson

      I think the implication is that the OOB caused a squib due to the pressure venting out the side of the case. I wasn’t there, but a OOB causing a squib isn’t hard to imagine.

  • Mike Lashewitz

    Thank you very much for this post. This is why I subscribed to begin with. Just to be notified of events happening like this.

    Now I am a bit pissed at S&W.

  • GetFactsBeforeFormingOpinions

    Well, that sounds like the responsible thing to do – don’t send it back to S&W because it is dangerous – just sell it to someone else and let them deal with the problem/danger!!!

    “The Senior Instructor sold the rifle shortly thereafter”

    Our club once hosted an Appleseed. While it is a great concept, I have to say I was NOT impressed by the “Senior Instructor”. My hope is not all the instructors are army/cop/seal wannabes that this guy was with a know-it-all attitude that may get someone killed or arrested.

    • Derek Johnson

      The Instructor DID send it back to S&W and sold the rifle AFTER it was returned by S&W.

      “The rifle was sent back to S&W, and it was repaired and returned. A
      copy of one page of the manual was enclosed, highlighting the need to
      keep the rifle clean and only use certain types of ammunition, insinuating that the problem was operator error, not a design flaw. The Senior Instructor sold the rifle shortly thereafter.”

      • GetFactsBeforeFormingOpinions

        My apologies, I didn’t comprehend that for some reason, and I was wrong and my post has been edited.

        On the other hand, if it came back from S&W in serviceable condition, why did he sell it unless he was uncomfortable with it?

        I have at least one firearm that I won’t sell because it was a piece of junk from the factory and sent back multiple times. I consider it my mistake for buying an expensive piece of junk, but I won’t put my problem on an unsuspecting buyer.

        • Derek Johnson

          We’d have to ask the instructor to be sure, but if someone was not aware of the ammunition restrictions on the rifle before buying it, it’s understandable that they might sell it on finding out. The rifle isn’t unserviceable, just no longer meets their needs. Think of it like buying a flintlock, then selling it after learning that it really won’t work with pyrodex.

          I’d also add that this happened several years ago before the other problems came to light. (No, it’s not me, but I’ve heard of the incident through the grapevine)

          • GetFactsBeforeFormingOpinions

            Flintlocks work fine with Pyrodex as a propellant, just not as a primer/flash powder. Of course, it would be pure blasphemy to use Pyrodex in a flintlock!

        • Derek Johnson

          I should also add in the interest of full disclosure that yes, I am an Appleseed Instructor, but not involved in the decision above.

          • GetFactsBeforeFormingOpinions

            Thank you. I am also an NRA Cerified Instructor in various disciplines. My comment was not to disparage Appleseed in general, just the bad experience I had with one instructor.

  • Tony Miller

    I’ve had a remington 597 do the oob with my son right beside me and it scared the bell out of both of us.

  • joe DiPietrantonio

    I think that this article is Bogus. Just got off the phone with S & W Tactical department & they stated that there was no problem with this weapon with the fire control group, but heard of false claims on the operation of this weapon.

    • MichaelZWilliamson

      Well, i’m convinced. Just like Ford insisted there were no problems with the Pinto, and who would know better than the mfr with money to lose?

  • James O Donnell

    Sounds more like ammunition problems than anything wrong with the rifle. Remington .22 is notorious for being dirty crap that fouls chambers, causing OOBs in a self-loader. It does the same thing in 10/22s and Marlin 60s.

    • Deplorable-Shocked&Amazed

      ThunderDuds

  • Steve_7

    This isn’t a new thing, S&W has been aware of it for years. I bought my 15-22 back in 2010 and almost from the start it would fire short bursts with one pull of the trigger using Federal 710. I sent it back and they replaced the bolt return spring with a blue one that appears to be heavier. Know another shooter who had problems, said it misfired which I assume means it fired out-of-battery, same deal, he sent it back, came back with a blue bolt return spring. The problem appears to be the spring just isn’t strong enough to keep the bolt closed, plus you’re dealing with .22LR and some have more sensitive priming than others.

  • The Brigadier

    It appears S&W needs to get ahead of this before the next accident occurs and they better hope and pray its not as serious as the one that damaged that recruit’s arm. Her family certainly has the right to sue S&W as all of these occurrences are the result of faulty parts. Are you reading these S&W? There are anti-gunners just waiting to pounce. Recall all of them and replace the weak parts in question.

    Remington you also. Your 700 has a faulty sear. Have you replaced them with a better design yet. Three instances of sear slippage causing the rifle to fire without anyone being near the trigger is unacceptable. .30’06 and .308’s will cause more than just a little blood seepage. I wrote you about this several years ago as more reports came in of self firing. You also are on our watch list.

  • BigR

    S&W is pulling a Remington! Read the book “Unsafe by Design” by Jack Belk. These companies today have cheapened their products since World War II. Remington has had problems with their rifles going off by just putting them on safety. Now it’s looking like S&W wants to join the club! I’m not pushing Jack’s book, but if you read it, you will be highly PO’ed at what Remington has been doing since 1947. I bought two of my sons and one grandson Remington 700 rifles years ago, and I recommended they contact Remington right away and replace the triggers on them. God bless Jack Belk! I’ll never buy another Remington again. Forty years ago, I was in a gun shop, and the owner handed me a model 700, and he told me to work the bolt, then put the safety on. I did it what he said and the firing pin went off, with no ammo in it, of course. He was returning it to the factory. I thought at the time it was just and isolated incident, but since then, I’ve found out it was almost normal in all Remington rifles. It didn’t happen all the time, but it killed and maimed a good number of people, and Remington hid it from the public all these years.

  • Leigh Rich

    LOL.. not that big of deal…too many PC/ Snowflakes here

  • DG

    I just had someone ask me about this on my FB page. It’s good to know that these reports are coming in. Hopefully S&W will work to get the problem solved. I can only assume they contract the rifle to be made.

    I took my appleseed class w/ a .223 bolt gun and it was a blast. I highly recommend the class to anyone interested in becoming a better shooter.

  • Danny Emerson

    I keep mine clean and use recommended ammo. No issues…

  • Ben Enjerry

    You have a plastic lower, with metal pins. Over time, the holes wear and the pins slip out, drift, causing the offset. I’ve used JP pins to keep things in place on our rental house guns but the factory pins do wear in the plastic. Another problem I see is the firing pin breaks every six months with heavy usage. If the tip becomes jammed in the face, you will have a slam-fire the minute the bolt closes on a chambered round. I have seen the J-spring in the hammer break as well, causing the hammer pin to drift. The gun “looks” authentic, but it’s cheap. You get what you pay for.